In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Foreign Affairs

Reading this article just made me feel dirty.

“These are not American women,” our guide was telling us. “They do not care about your age, looks, or money. And you are not going to have to talk to them for half an hour and then have your testicles handed back to you! Let me tell you: over here, you’re the commodity; you’re the piece of meat. I’ve lived in St. Petersburg for two years, and I wouldn’t date an American woman right now if you paid me!”


It was three weeks before Christmas, and I was sitting in a Ukrainian business hotel with perhaps thirty men, mostly American and mostly on the later side of middle age, listening as a muscular, impossibly loud ex‒radio D.J. who answers to “Dan the Man” promised that our lives were about to change forever. We were all strangers, but I knew at least one thing about these men: each was there because he was frustrated, angry, and tired of being alone. Each had decided that his best chance at happiness was to pay nearly $4,000 to a company called A Foreign Affair, which would ferry him through Ukraine on a two-week bride hunt, “like an alpha-male wolf,” as one testimonial for the tour giddily assured us, “having the sheep brought in.”

Essentially, American men go to the Ukraine, which remains quite poor, and they take their pick of women who are desperate for a new life.

“Now, take everything you know about dating and throw it away. After a few days, you guys are going to become like American women! A woman you would have killed to have lunch with back in the U.S., she’ll be wanting to go out with you, but you’ll start noticing little faults—her ankles are too big, you don’t like the shape of her earlobes. And you will throw her back, because you have so many choices.”

Just like livestock, I suppose.

But these groups aren’t just harmless fun for guys looking for dates — they often ignore, or even condone, domestic violence, and they don’t do anything to protect the women who are being offered up to these men:

Historically, IMBs have declined to provide any information about their male clients to the women with whom they seek to match them; and, in fact, this one-sidedness has been a selling point. A New York‒based advocacy group called Equality Now demonstrated it in stark terms in 1999, when they sent a blanket email inquiry to dozens of IMBs, purporting to be from a physician who had assaulted two ex-wives; his email asked whether this history would be an issue. Out of sixty-six responses, only three IMBs turned him down, and only two others expressed serious reservations about taking him on as a client; a few actually praised him and commiserated regarding the occasional need for violence when it comes to keeping women in line. Among the responses:

“Having also been accused of asult by western women, who are usually the instigaters of domestic violence I can tell you: A) don’t let it bother you and B) most Thais avoid confrontation, Buddhist philosophy, so they are not likely to start something that may end in violence.” (www.loveasia.com)

“Thank you for your open and honest letter. I believe we all have skeletons in the closet and do not let them fall out when we meet someone. When I look into my past it also does not look too rosy. In heated arguments we all say and do things we did not mean, it does not make us a bad person. What I am trying to say is, let the ladies get to know the real you.” (www.russianwives.com)

“We are an agency and our purpose is to try to help people meet each other. We never refuse any clients that come to us with the exception of incarcerated people. So the answer is yes we will do our very best to help you, as we do for everybody else, but you should try to work on these problem you have for your own benefit and the benefit of your future wife.” (www.missright.com)

Obviously, this is a problem.

What I like about this article, though, is that it really humanizes the men who are trying to find wives. They’re portrayed as unhappy, as misfits, but as guys who do have good intentions. Their views on gender roles and women are pretty backwards, and I sure as hell wouldn’t want to marry any of them — but they’re a group of men who seem lost. Somewhere along the way, feminism shifted women’s roles and collective social mentality, but a lot of men were left behind. Not that that justifies them treating women like commodities, but it’s worth remembering that these guys aren’t demons.

Even the most likable of them approached the idea of marriage as if through a time machine. One, for example, a sweet-tempered, chubby Canadian businessman, spoke with passion and conviction about the female orgasm, and openly about loneliness; at one point he leaned over to me and whispered, “We’re all hurting in one way or another, that’s why we’re here. We’re all trying to make our lives better, we’re all looking for love.” He told me he wanted a genuine partner, but with the caveat that on the big issues—house buying, for example—he must be in charge, for the good of them both. “A ship cannot have two captains,” he insisted. When I suggested that he and his hypothetical spouse might eliminate the need for a “captain” by simply shopping for a house they both liked, he went silent for a moment before he managed both to concede my point and to reframe it entirely: “Actually, that’s an important thing you just said, because for a woman, she would take a lot of pride in her house. The kitchen area, the living-room area, the entertainment area, she’s got to be compatible with that. So that’s something I would gladly defer to a woman on.”

Read the whole article. It’s just… sad.

via Feministing, whose weekly feminist reader you shoud also check out.


36 thoughts on Foreign Affairs

  1. The way they talk (and the sales pitches) remind me a lot of the stuff I was reading on the sex tourism trade.

    There’s a woman I work with who’s from Russia, and the way she speaks about her (American) husband, I have my suspicions. It could just be that she’s very young, but she’s always talking about him allowing her to do something or having to get permission or whatnot. And he flipped when he found out she was sent on a business trip with a man, and now he won’t let her go again, even though it’s part of her job.

  2. And you are not going to have to talk to them for half an hour and then have your testicles handed back to you!

    Um, how can an American woman take what you don’t have, you ass.

    Alternatively, if you do have them, how did you lose them in the first place. Shit, you are one hell of a man if you let a woman emasculate you after a thirty minute coversation. Maybe this guy only thinks he has a pair.

    Wait, wait lets just stick to theory that he does not have any.

  3. Something tells me these guys are all lining up to become ‘fathers rights’ activists when the inevitable divorce comes. And ready to blame everyone (DV clinics, immigrant rights organizations, family court judges) but the explosive inequity of their marriage situation.

  4. j swift: I would hope that one’s worthiness as a man (whatever that means) isn’t wholly decided by his testicles or lack thereof.

    Oh, but this post reminds me of some research I did last year on the mail-order bride industry. While my research focused mainly on brides from southeast Asia, the trends seem to be about the same. There is a lot wrapped up in the MOB industry and it can be hard to unpack.

    For instance, the MOB industry in America got its start when anti-miscengenation laws prevented Asian immigrants from marrying white American women. The industry provided these Asian men with Asian brides. Once these laws dissolved, however, the industry remained and eventually grew to become what it is today. There is a whole history of discrimination behind it.

    And now men are “sold” foreign women on the principle that they are somehow more submissive than American women. The idea is that they make better wives because they have more morals. The idea of America as a Christian nation becomes tied in as well – men want women with “traditional” values. It’s all very sad and interesting. Conversely the women in the foreign countries – and, often more importantly, their families – are sold on the idea of America as a land of opportunities where American men can be better husbands and providers than their native men. It’s almost like a reverse sort of Othering – undoubtedly a result of American “branding” throughout the world.

  5. Perhaps the “gentleman” in question is too afraid to deal with real women. Instead he wants to buy toys.

  6. Bryan, I am sure that what Dan the Man thinks of as metaphorical testicles is not the same as what I do.

    I suspect that Dan the Man is all about the man being macho, in charge, overly competitive, you know, basically insecure.

    In my book, having testicles is not about that.

    Going to an impoverished country to pick a desperate woman to be your wife is not my idea of being a man. It reeks of indentured servitude and slavery. It reeks of control-freak abuser enabling.

    At best Dan the Man and my idea of testicle don’t match. (that is maybe I am being too judgmental). At worst, I am right and he is scumbag.

  7. Nik, why don’t you ask the real question: why do women NEED men just to live? And why do they have to decide between degrees of abuse to do it?

    God, I have a good Ukrainian friend who married a guy to get away from the poverty.

  8. If domestic violence is a problem with these problems, then it goes without saying that it must be investigated and corrected. But I am not sure why the idea of men who have problems meeting women, for whatever reasons, paying for an oppurtunity for an increased chance of attracting a women is such a problem. Sure, they are much more desperate than an American woman would probably be. The American woman has her options and these American men are only increasing theirs. Why should the dating scene stop at the water’s edge? Don’t forget that these men aren’t exactly going into this thing without a risk. I am sure that when the women get American citizenship, many of these men end up just as alone as they started.

  9. Leo, this isn’t just increasing the dating pool of the American man. If a guy wanted to go abroad and meet girls the old-fashioned way, more power to him, but bridal tours like this hardly resemble “dating.” Generally the women are “employed” by the agency organizing the tours. These men are out to take advantage of impoverished people. And I hardly think the man’s risk of being deserted can be considered on equal footing as the woman’s risk of being raped, beaten, murdered, or otherwise abused. There have been cases of women essentially being forced into domestic slavery once brought to America – it’s scary but true. Don’t think for a minute this is a legitmate way of meeting women.

  10. The mail order bride industry is nothing more than the the glossy, “fun” side of human traffiking. These men are buying desperate women like cattle. Theirs to own, use and abuse as domestic and sexual servants. I don’t feel sorry for these men one little bit.

  11. Nik, why don’t you ask the real question: why do women NEED men just to live? And why do they have to decide between degrees of abuse to do it?

    (1) I just assumed that marriage is a life goal that many people actively want to happen for their own reasons. And that many Ukranian women would want to marry someone in the absence of financial neccessity. Given this, why a Ukranian rather than an American? And let’s be honest: some of these men aren’t very pro-feminist by US standards, but by the standards of some places they probably look like Hugo Schwyzer.

    (2) The vast majority of the world is terrible. I’m not wealthy by the standards of my country, but I’m well aware that I am by the standards of most people in the world. I assume the main driver of this is generic poverty, rather than gender inequality. I suspect that if the Ukraine became the-land-of-gender-equality tomorrow mail order marriages would still be attractive. If I married a random Ukranian chances are their standard of living would vastly increase irrespective of whether they were a man or a woman. Sure there aren’t many US women looking for Ukranian men, but if there were I’m sure there’d be a lot of guys who were interested.

  12. Serious question: would these women be better off with Ukrainian men?

    There’s no possible way to answer this question. It depends on the individual woman and the individual man.

    We can’t compare American men who are looking for Ukranian brides with all Ukranian man. In some cases, it would be in a woman’s best interests to marry an American man; in others, a Ukranian man; in others, a man of some other nationality; in others, a woman; in others, nobody at all.

    I can’t even see how this makes a good intellectual exercise. There are just too many factors involved.

  13. These men are buying desperate women like cattle. Theirs to own, use and abuse as domestic and sexual servants. I don’t feel sorry for these men one little bit.

    I second that. I saw a documentary recently on mail-order wives, where this one guy (fat, balding, late middle age) treated his (young, hot) Russian wife like a child, or a pet. He didn’t seem to be abusing her, at least not on camera, but he referred to her as “Baby” in the third person (” ‘Baby’ needs to clean the house today”) and just generally talked down to her, the way you would if you were explaining fixed interest rates to a four year old.

    The whole mail-order bride thing just creeps me out.

  14. I can’t even see how this makes a good intellectual exercise. There are just too many factors involved.

    I don’t know whether these women would be better off or not, but the reason I ask is that if they are I’m not sure my instinctive ‘yuck, yuck, yuck – this is creepy and terrible’ response is appropriate.

  15. Not that that justifies them treating women like commodities, but it’s worth remembering that these guys aren’t demons.

    No, they’re not. They’re just men. Normal men. Who can’t help it that they can’t think of over half the human race as being, well, human beings with human rights just like themselves. Poor dears. Poor babies, who shouldn’t be held accountable for views that were retrograde in 1920, because it isn’t their fault that the world changed a hundred-odd years ago in the West, and they just haven’t caught up to changes that happened generations before they’re born.

    Which is why I’m happily single. Because pretend-feminists are still too busy appeasing and placating and trying so hard not to threaten the Guys these days to demand that this kind of abusive male-chauvinist behaviour be made intolerable by ALL DECENT HUMANS, male or female.

    Jill, you sound just like the conservative Catholic women I grew up with, saying that men aren’t to be blamed for their failings. Men who can’t help but beat or rape their wives, who want slaves who can’t get free of them, but – “they’re not demons.” No, because any human is worse than any bodiless demon, to those who are weaker than himself.

    That’s what made it so hard to make marital rape and wife-beating crimes, the tolerance of people like you all these generations.

  16. That’s a fascinating article.
    The bit saying that many of the women in Kiev weren’t so desparate after all, and were only there for the free champagne, rang true. I know a (non-mail order) Ukrainian woman now married to a UK citizen, and she much preferred her life in Ukraine and would very happily go back.

  17. I loved staying in the Ukraine, and I’d buy a flat there in a heartbeat if I could. That said, I speak Russian, and I used to chat with the girls marrying these old farts when we were at the Internet cafe. None of the men bothered to learn how to speak Ukrainian or Russian. All of them were marrying women who were much younger than themselves, after failed marriages to women their own age. It was instructive to say the least.

    The guys I saw in Moscow were younger but in some ways they were worse because they hated any woman that wouldn’t kiss their ass and suck their dick—-and you got the feeling they wanted it done simultaneously, too. Obviously American women just aren’t trying hard enough if they can’t do the physically impossible for the incredibly demanding men.

  18. Well, one of my creepy, non-social skill having co-workers bought himself a young Filipina. It made my skin crawl even watching them because it was obvious they didn’t really know each other. She had nothing to do all day so she would come and sit in our break room/kitchen all afternoon until another co-worker complained that she was in there every day. Once, I heard her ask him how old he was. He is old enough to be her father and he talks to her like she is a child. He has anger management issues given that he once trapped me at my desk demanding that I tell him why agreed with him on a technical issue. If he were ADEQUATE, he could have found an American woman. But, he is a nutcase loser and had to go trolling the third world to buy a child to call his wife. No way I believe he has respect for me or any woman in the workplace if he bought the woman he has at home. From my POV, these are the same ilk of men who used to go back to the slave quarters and rape slave women when their cousin wives were done having children back in the day to keep the plantation in the family. Now, at least, these rejects have to pay.

  19. Qusan, He trapped you behind your desk? You should have had that freak ousted. Violence in the workplace is real and can get out of hand quick.

  20. Which is why I’m happily single. Because pretend-feminists are still too busy appeasing and placating and trying so hard not to threaten the Guys these days to demand that this kind of abusive male-chauvinist behaviour be made intolerable by ALL DECENT HUMANS, male or female.

    Jill, you sound just like the conservative Catholic women I grew up with, saying that men aren’t to be blamed for their failings. Men who can’t help but beat or rape their wives, who want slaves who can’t get free of them, but – “they’re not demons.” No, because any human is worse than any bodiless demon, to those who are weaker than himself.

    That’s what made it so hard to make marital rape and wife-beating crimes, the tolerance of people like you all these generations.

    Excuse me? Nowhere did I say that I’m “tolerant” of what these men are doing. I was just pointing out that putting forth a stereotypical representation of evil, demonic men who go abroad for wives isn’t accurate, and I appreciate the fact that this author portrayed these men realistically — it drives home the point that these aren’t mysterious, shady guys, they’re people who you might know. That isn’t nearly the same as apologizing for them, or saying that they aren’t to blame for anything. They’re 100% to blame for their own actions. I figured that would be obvious enough that I wouldn’t have to write it ten times to get the point across.

    I’m not tolerating anything. There’s a big difference between saying, “These guys are unfortunate human beings who are still complete assholes and are responsible for their behavior” and “Oh, poor dears, it’s not their fault.”

    So if you want to blame marital rape and wife-beating on people like me (“pretend feminists”), then go for it. But you’re shooting in the wrong direction.

  21. I never thought guys who bought foreign wives were evil or demonic. My mental picture of those guys was more like, loser with no social skills and a chip on his shoulder because women don’t get down on their knees to suck his dick. The story sort of confirms that for me. It just seems really sordid and creepy at best.

  22. The quotes from the guys on the trip freak me out. They gave each other loads of fun advice, like make sure that you never give her access to your joint bank account. A lot of them felt they had been unfarily treated in a divorce proceeding. You got the feeling that they believed their new brides would have too many financial and cultural barriers to utilizing the system to protect them from abuse or eventually get rid of the controlling freaks. I’d give a pretty to hear their first wives’ side of the story. There are tons of shy geeky women out there who would welcome a proposal from a nice, financially stable man, so I just don’t buy the ‘socially challenged’ excuse, unless you mean, like Ted Bundy was socially challenged.

  23. Let me say that both the article and Jill’s commentary on it raise some good points. The “dating” format described in the article strikes me as contrived and potentially ineffective. Who could honestly pick a life partner in only two weeks?

    The asymmetry of information between the male and female clients of these services should also be addressed, for the benefit of both the clients and the firm’s own reputation in the host country. The women should be able to obtain background checks on the men to identify those with criminal records (and the men obtain similiar checks on the women to identify serial gold-diggers). Then, at least, everyone knows the risks.

    There are additional linguistic and cultural externalities that should be considered.

    But I also saw much contempt, condescension, and sloppy thinking:

    “I hardly think the man’s risk of being deserted can be considered on equal footing as the woman’s risk of being raped, beaten, murdered, or otherwise abused.”

    Indeed. Specifically, assault, rape, and murder are AGAINST THE LAW and will quickly bring down the wrath of the state about the head and shoulders of their perpetrators with much smiting, surely more so in the U.S. than in the Ukraine. Meanwhile, desertion is punished by . . . nothing.

    I read words like “inadequate”, “loser”, etc. And of course American women are entitled to their opinion of these men. But so are Ukrainian women! And if a Ukrainian woman decides that marriage to one improves her material and even emotional well-being, then who has standing to complain?

    I also read words like “cattle”, “slavery”, etc. But cattle and slaves have NO CHOICE! Ukrainian women, in contrast, DO have choices, as evidenced by the fact that only a tiny fraction of them choose to make themselves available in the foreign marriage market. And once they do, they still get to choose which of the men they will accept.

  24. Of course desertion is punished by nothing. Do you think that vacating a marriage should be a felony? Maybe just for non-citizens?

  25. If this whole thing is, in fact, a breeding ground for abuse, etc. then you are all absolutely right. Its terrible and thats sort of thing needs to stop.

    But if it is not abusive, so what if these guys are losers? So they are in the unfortunate position of being born unattractive and/or lacking social skills. (often a cause and effect). These women are also in the unfortunate position of being born in the Ukraine. (no offense to the Ukraine – I was born in Russia and I consider it unfortunate too) So the women are no longer in the unfortunate position of being in the Ukraine and maybe it is worth it to them to be with these social incompetents. And maybe it is worth it to the social incompetents to be with a woman who is only with them to be here. Its easy for people in the perfect relationship to call this “creepy,” but to those who have other issues to worry about this is simply resourcefulness.

  26. But I also saw much contempt, condescension, and sloppy thinking

    You’re right, I feel a great deal of contempt and condescension towards husbands who murder, rape, or abuse their spouses. Thank you for noticing.

    And, yes, many of these women do have choice to a certain extent, but there are various external pressures at work that you cannot ignore. The degree of autonomy held by an impoverished Ukranian woman is almost certainly not equal to that held by a middle-class American woman.

  27. Bryan,

    It depends on how you define autonomy. Legally speaking, no she does not have less autonomy (unless there is something in the Ukranian legal system I am unfamiliar with). Sure, she has less resources and therefore has less choices to make in life. But thats true with anyone who has less money than the average American woman. So because a Ukranian woman has less options in life an American man is not allowed to look for Ukranian women to date? Or is it wrong because there is a dating service involved? (everything I just said assumes no abuse, coersion, etc.) Why would you force these ‘losers’ to only go for middle class American women? If they feel they have a better shot with a Ukranian woman who is lower on the economic scale because they have their wealth to offer that woman, who are you to judge? These are adults making decisions. Yes, I know, the Ukranian women are poor. I just don’t understand how that makes it wrong for socially inept American men to try to date them.

  28. Meanwhile, desertion is punished by . . . nothing

    No, desertion is punishable by deportation. Foreign spouses have to stay married to their American spouse for at least two years to be eligible for citizenship.

  29. everything I just said assumes no abuse, coersion, etc.

    But the problem is precisely that. There is often an intense amount of pressure on these women to offer themselves in this way. Again, my own research was only on southeast Asian brides, so things may be different in Ukraine, but part of me doubts it. The other thing is that these men are essentially buying the “love” of the women they desire. The reason they choose to date Ukranian women is because they think they are desperate for comparatively wealthy American men.

    While there may be no difference in legal autonomy, one’s privlege plays a great deal in the choices they are offered. Female mate choice (which, coincidentally, is one of the most important mechanisms in natural selection) is reduced when their native men have little to no prospects. Of course, not all women are looking for that – which is why many women do stay and marry Ukranian men – but for many people economic concerns play into the choices they make in life. If they lived under better circumstances, they would feel less pressure to make those decisions. That might not be a matter of legal autonomy, but there is a percieved (and often real) lack of autonomy under such dire economic circumstances.

  30. Bryan,

    I still maintain my caveat of no coercion etc. I realize there may be some, and that there was in your research, but for the sake of argument bare with me. Like I said before, these women’s autonomy is reduced by the lack of ‘privilege’ they have compared to American women. They have less mate choice. But by that logic, these men don’t have the ‘privilege’ of looking like David Beckham or being as smooth as Vince Vaughn. Thereby, they have less autonomy in mate choice and they do, in fact, have to buy their love. Now, this love buying happens a whole lot more than we like to admit, but here is an even more severe example. So what? Eventhough none of us want to be on either end of this transaction, to condemn it just because we we’re lucky enough not to have to enter into it ourselves is unfair to those who find themselves having to (and benefiting from it).

  31. From what I’ve read on alt.romance and other forums, and a little bit of real-life anecdotal evidence, I’d put the men who advocate and/or utilize the services of these international marriage brokers into the following categories:

    1. Men who think they have no chance at finding a partner through other methods. They usually want a fairly standard relationship, but think that other methods of meeting someone won’t work for them (and they’ve usually tried personal ads, speed dating, matchmaker services, etc.), due to unattractiveness, shyness, or lack of self-esteem. They usually describe mail-order brides as a last resort for the lonely, and while they’re not outspoken misogynists, they have a tendency to put women on pedestals.

    2. Men who want a standard relationship, and think that the marriage brokers are a more efficient way of getting what they want. They tend to talk about how they’re sick of “the dating game” and describe mail-order brides as a way of opting out of that. They also seem to be the most likely to worry about being used for immigration status.

    3. Men who primarily want cooking, cleaning, caretaking and sex, and seem to see marriage as a “bulk rate discount.” These folk seem to have a lot of crossover with the “speed seduction” and strip-club crowds, and while they too talk about “the dating game” they tend to criticize the women who participate in it rather than the social conventions themselves. Their language also tends to be more entitlement-minded.

    4. Men who actively seek out a lopsided power dynamic with the potential for abuse. I haven’t seen too many people who directly advocate this one, for obvious reasons.

    I think it’s a mistake to assume that everyone who uses these services is in the same group – that it’s all outright abusers, or it’s all desperate lonely men, or all cynical pragmatists.

  32. I have to sympathize with these men. As a shy, short, fat, balding guy, you know, the kind of men you call losers, and express clearly how uninterested you are, why shouldn’t I persue women who might be more interested in me?

    It truly does depend on the individual people involved, which implies to me that the foreign women involved may have a clearer understanding of their own situations than anyone on feministe.

  33. I just saw an evening hosted by A Foreign Affair, and wrote about my reactions (I am, at present, in Kiev on business.

    Depressing.

    TK

  34. Nik Would they be better with Ukrainian men?

    Yes, if those men treated them as people, not as objects. Ukranian men are just like men anywhere else, products of culture, and working within in to be the best idea of what they see it demanding.

    I know lots of Ukrainian men, and I would be more than happy if my sisters, daughters, friends etc. married one of them.

    I know lots of American men, and the same applies.

    What I would not be happy with them marrying is anyone who saw them as a commodity, as a an object, a thing instead of as a person.

    TK

Comments are currently closed.