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In Defense of the Working Girl

Megan O’Rourke has a very good take on Linda Hirshman’s new book:

But—though I almost hate to say it—buried beneath Hirshman’s overblown rhetoric is a useful idea, now set out in a short book titled Get to Work: A Manifesto for Women of the World: namely, that our obsession with choice prevents us from asking tough questions about how to achieve further equality. “Deafened by choice, here’s the moral analysis these women never heard,” she says: Until there is more equity in the cultural norms for child-rearing and household tasks, each time a woman decides to “opt out” she is making a political decision that reinforces an already ingrained social inequality. Women who believe otherwise suffer from a mixture of false consciousness and impractical idealism. It’s when Hirshman is at her most radical—when she sets aside the language of personal fulfillment in favor of injunctions about the collective good—that she is at her most valuable. I would never write this book, but I’m glad somebody did.


Yes.

I’m with O’Rourke on this: I don’t agree with everything that Linda Hirshman is saying, but I’m sure glad that she’s saying it.

The reason all this matters, Hirshman persuasively argues, is that choice feminism creates a “mutually reinforcing” cycle. Affluent and well-educated men rarely leave the workforce (and when they do, it’s usually to return to school or start a business); a portion of affluent and well-educated women do opt out (and when they do, it’s almost exclusively to raise children). When these women choose to devote their skills to childcare rather than to the workplace, they are “perpetuating a mostly male ruling class”—precisely the type unlikely to help make the case for more flexible work arrangements that would allow more women back into the workforce. The result is disempowering for less-well-off women, who have fewer public female role models, and for the opt-outers themselves, who find it hard to re-enter the work place and, if divorced, may have to depend on their husbands for support. None of this, Hirshman points out, dovetails with the aims of feminism.

This is an important conversation to have. Yes, women should make individual choices, but we don’t get to ignore the fact that those choices aren’t made in a vacuum, and they do affect other women.

It is in forcing us to consider the implications of all this that Hirshman’s book is most interesting: If you are a woman who is committed to gender equality, who doesn’t believe that a woman’s place is necessarily in the home, she argues, then you have to think about how your choices shape the collective good. Her stubborn insistence is refreshing. Unlike others, she is willing to come out and say, in no uncertain terms, that the luxury of making our own decisions as if they had no larger implications isn’t ethical at this point in time. If that makes feminism unpopular, so be it; but shying away from persistent inequality by invoking the language of “choice,” she observes, is hardly feminism. If you buy her argument, then even if you find it hard to leave your baby at home, and even if you find the workplace sometimes less-than-fulfilling, it’s important—to society as a whole—that you work. This sounds extreme, but of course it’s the lesson every man is taught when he’s a boy: Your responsibility to society—the way to become an adult—is to work.

Emphasis mine. It is funny how, if this book was directed at men, no one would bat an eye. Because men working is an assumption.

Whatever the flaws and limitations of this book—and they are very real—it’s liberating to be told to think as calculatingly as men do about how to lead your life as a parent and an employee. The essence of the mommy wars in recent years has been the assumption that the woman who stays at home does so for selfless reasons, invoking the good of the children, future leaders of our country. But Hirshman flips the terms of debate, reminding us that women who work aren’t being selfish: even 40 years after the feminist revolution, educated working women, especially those with top-level jobs, are still pioneers. Women have the right to stick up for their own careers, not just for reasons of personal fulfillment but for reasons of social necessity. Praising the man who comes home at 6, while worrying about a mother who has part-time job, is simple sexism. And any mother who sniffily says to another that she can tell which kids are in day care and which aren’t should be “shown the door,” as Hirshman puts it. Until those who care about equality recognize that it will take collective action to create further change, the kinds of policy amendments most women want to see won’t take place, and women will continue doing 70 percent of the housework—while men continue to do less housework after marriage than they did as bachelors.

Yes, yes, yes. Read the whole article.

Related: Why Linda Hirshman doesn’t understand Betty Friedan.


39 thoughts on In Defense of the Working Girl

  1. While I agree with these points and am a proud working girl who intends to work and have children, I wonder if pushing women to carry the same oppression as men is really the answer. The fact that men are expected to work is not necessarily a good thing. They are forced to be breadwinners, which can make them choose jobs that are not necessarily appealing, because they are concerned about making enough money for their families. And all this does is strengthen capitalism.

    I guess what I mean is this: rather than just tell women ‘it’s your responsibility to work in order to keep from perpetuating sexism,’ shouldn’t we be thinking about the major institutional issues that block women from working? The lack of lactation rooms? The poor parental leave policies? The lack of sensitivity of employers, or even their blatant sexism? Sexual harassment? The lack of an ombudsperson or legitimate grievance procedure in most workplaces? The hours that do not align with school hours? And before you think I’m saying this because women should be primary caretakers of children, I’m not: I think these things are mutually beneficial for men and women.

    Working women need to come together in their places of work and fight the structure, locally and nationally. And from personal experience, I can say the only time this has worked in my life has been when I was organizing for a union. Women need work together for collective bargaining rights at every place of work in this country. It’s the only way I have seen sexism fought back successfully in the workplace.

  2. What Kate said. You make structural changes collectively, not individually. Individual women making individual decisions to be in the paid work place (which is very different from deciding to fight to change the paid work place) will not make any structural difference.

    I also think her basic argument that if women were in powerful positions women’s position would be better was long ago debunked (Thatcher). New Zealand is on its second female Prime Minister. The speaker of the house, Chief Justice, CEO of our largest company are all women (and I imagine they’d all identify as feminists, even though I’d fight them over the title). Until recently our Attorney General and Governor General were also women. Hasn’t done us any good whatsoever.

  3. Where does this leave women who work at home, or work half days in the office and half days at home, or take a couple years off to avoid leaving a very young baby in day care?

    I have to say that stopping regular breastfeeding and putting my (hypothetical) six-week-old in day care just to “make a political statement that we’re all equal” is absolutely not an option. (Neither is having my husband stay home and living on my meager income). And if we are all forced to stay at work to fight the system until it changes, then our own families will have to pay, and that doesn’t seem right.

    But if there were other options like the first commentor said–a maternity leave of a year, telecommuting (and employers who stop saying “We can’t afford the remote access”), home business opportunities that aren’t get-rich-quick schemes from your Yahoo junk box, etc etc etc.–then would we see fewer people “opting out?” Maybe.

    Most of us don’t stay home because we believe a woman’s place is in the home. We stay home because the alternatives aren’t that great. Because the cost of daycare + commute exceeds our income, or because quality daycare for a newborn baby doesn’t exist in our area and we don’t want to take chances, or we have a demanding, non-understanding boss who expects us to return immediately to overtime and weekend work. Or any number of other things.

    And touting the fact that being home is bad and that everyone should be fine with coming straight back to work just like a man would, is likely to please many a lawmaker or CEO who doesnt’ want to change the policies. They’ll say, “Look–everyone’s fine with their six weeks and no nursing allowed in the office, so why change it?”

    So the answer isn’t to act like men and make everyone the breadwinner and nobody the caretaker.

    The question is, how do we reach those alternatives without forcing people currently to sacrifice what is best for their families? We have no answers precisely because our society won’t quit the “mommy wars” and look toward actual solutions.

    “Career housewives” may hurt us, but so do people like Hirshman. It may be “everyone’s responsibility to work,” but when “work” means 9 a.m. to 7 p.m. in an office, is it any wonder that some people will opt out to get to know their kids better?

    There was an article (have to find it) about the difference between American and European second-wave feminism. The American variety was more directed toward career women, and didn’t really work to accommodate mothers that much (now it’s trying in the Third Wave to change that). In Europe, feminism supported mothers from the get-go, and so was more willing to force workplaces to be more family-friendly.

    Of course it’s not just the old form of feminism that’s to blame. It also probably has something to do with our lawmakers too, with their belief in either a June-Ward Cleaver arrangement, or two parents working around the clock, rather than working out something in between.

    I don’t know. I would just hesitate to go back to work under the current circumstances just to “make a statement.” Should women refuse to come back after 6 weeks and start demanding more time off? Should we make it clear that we are looking for employment elsewhere if the company makes excuses not to accommodate our family needs? (Being serious here–please discuss because I think it’s an important point).

    I also like the idea of being able to split part-time work so both parents get time at home, if only we could do that and keep the benefits.

  4. Working women need to come together in their places of work and fight the structure, locally and nationally.

    Maybe this isn’t the right term….but I think we’re both imagining a sort of collective boycott–“I’ll come back, but not unless this this and this are negotiable.” As in, not coming back, submitting to the current rules, and saying, “Oh well, I’ll have to see my baby less often,” but working to actually move some mountains. I think that’s what needs to be done, in whatever form is possible.

  5. Most of us don’t stay home because we believe a woman’s place is in the home. We stay home because the alternatives aren’t that great

    .

    Agreed. And this was my biggest issue with Hirshman’s piece — she put the burden on individual women instead of pushing institutional changes that will make it easier for all people to make real choices about childrearing and work.

  6. I’m glad you are able to see it that way, Jill. If enough of us (both on the liberal and conservative ends) agree, hopefully there will be change over the next few decades!

  7. You know Kate, having more women in the working world might force companies to deal with all those issues.

  8. I agree frumious, but only if those women work together. I have had several experiences where women in a higher position of power than me have been more abusive to me than to men, and other experiences where female colleagues at the same level are incredibly competitive with each other.

    My feeling is, it’s pretty hard to be a working person, harder still to be a working woman, and harder still to be a working mom. We’ve got all these pent-up feelings because of the way institutions oppress us. It doesn’t seem useful to take these feelings out on each other, and I have lots of personal experience to suggest that working together in a union is helpful. I think a union is useful because it’s a structured way to avoid competition between colleagues.

  9. I have a serious question and every time I bring it up I get the same types of answers that all strike me as avoiding the central issue, but it seem appropriate here. When are women who are interested in having careers going to start selecting men who what to be the primary child care giver? I mean most women and men have a mental checklist about what they want from a mate, there are a lot of men who would reject a woman out of hand if she said that she would never remain in the home as a primary child care giver, why is it that so few women demand this as primary metric for mate selection?

    I mean sure your going to have to give up a few things in the mate, the men that would want to do this will be of a different temperament from those who would not consider it or who identify with their work and the selection pool will be somewhat smaller but I can’t understand why more women who are more interested in their work life but don’t want to sacrifice that for having a family don’t go this route.

    Help me out here.

  10. What I really don’t understand is the continued acceptance of childbirth as normative for adult women. Life with two careers and two kids (or just one) can absolutely be a misery — and that’s not a message that younger women seem to be getting until it’s too late to back out. I understand that family is important, and that many women experience “baby hunger,” but opting to have children in the current child- and family-unfriendly cultural climate is a loser for women. I’d like to hear Linda Hirshman flatly state that women shouldn’t be thinking of having babies at all, ever, if they want to be able to support themselves.

    Many of the men I know who are my age (late 30s) and who still haven’t married, have younger girlfriends with ambitious career plans but still talk fondly of wanting to have kids someday. They’re blithely blind to what that actually means — they assume, I suppose, that THEY won’t be the ones doing the bulk of the household and child management — and their ambitious younger girlfriends seem equally unconscious of the implications for their careers of dating older men with babies on the brain.

  11. Rick–good point, and that’s actually what my sister did. She is very intensely into her career, has a baby (in daycare part-time and home with Dad every Friday), and does great–why? Because since college, her husband has said all he wants to be is “Mr. Mom” (reference to the movie). He is therefore a good match for her because he makes very little money, is not that committed to his job (using it only as income, but able to scale back as needed), and will gladly quit the job to stay home if it comes to the point where it’s needed.

    Women who want to stay home usually choose men who can provide. Unless there’s inherited money involved, most women married to teachers or social workers aren’t going to be able to be homemakers. Why don’t men who want to stay home choose women who want to provide, as opposed to women who also want to stay home? Interesting.

  12. Why don’t men who want to stay home choose women who want to provide, as opposed to women who also want to stay home? Interesting.

    I mentioned this because I know a couple who did / do this and it has worked out great for them. On the other hand, I also know a guy who was married to a woman with the expectation of being “Mr. mom” who got dumped for a “trophy husband”. So all of the things that women have pointed out over the years as being a downside to the traditional arrangement apply in reverse. But this is an interesting subject to me because I may well be entering into a situation where I won’t be Mr. Mom (no kids) but I might have the subordinate job.

  13. a portion of affluent and well-educated women do opt out (and when they do, it’s almost exclusively to raise children)”

    Alternatively, when these highly educated and highly paid women opt out they are 1) broadcasting their displeasure with the work arrangements offered and 2) reinforcing the desirability of time with family to their male coworkers.

    While I think it unwise for any woman to entirely eschew earnings of her own for an indefinite time to raise children, it seems crazy to beat up on individuals for societal norms. I believe in working for change, and for valuing the work done within families of all kinds.

    When are women who are interested in having careers going to start selecting men who what to be the primary child care giver?

    They already are. Of course, that doesn’t help the majority of workers, male and female, who don’t aspire to anything like a “career”, just a steady paycheck, and who couldn’t eat if they decided to “opt out”.

  14. But this is an interesting subject to me because I may well be entering into a situation where I won’t be Mr. Mom (no kids) but I might have the subordinate job.

    I think much of it is a matter of complementarity in general. Two career-intensive people might tend to drive each other away or ignore each other, whereas two non-career-oriented people would starve! 🙂 Whether it’s the man or the woman, even family therapists will tell you that it tends to bring a lot less stress to the marriage when only one person is intensely involved in a “moving up” career with long hours.

    They already are. Of course, that doesn’t help the majority of workers, male and female, who don’t aspire to anything like a “career”, just a steady paycheck, and who couldn’t eat if they decided to “opt out”.

    That’s a good point too, which Linda Hirshman and all of us are guilty of forgetting about. People forget that there are many folks, union workers, hourly workers, etc. who would die to spend more time at home, and see their job as way to eat, not a way to “realize themselves.” Although Hirshman did admit that she was studying only the elites.

  15. They already are. Of course, that doesn’t help the majority of workers, male and female, who don’t aspire to anything like a “career”, just a steady paycheck, and who couldn’t eat if they decided to “opt out”.

    Right but that is a different issue, I was addressing the idea that women are at a disadvantage in highly competitive and high earning careers because of the realities of child rearing because “men rarely leave the work force” for child care. Typically, you don’t get “mommy tracked” in a union or a non-career job (this is not to say that it can’t happen).

    Where woman suffer the most is in fields that are ultra-competitive. Women who have no spousal support lose out to men that do. Men can work long hours, spend weeks at a time on business trips if there is a woman at home taking care of the kids. If a man won’t do this for a woman, she can’t compete for these ultra-competitive, high-level jobs and you find fewer women at “the top” as a result.

    No one is disputing that two-income families have disparities, they do, but I was under the impression that the target of the post was women who want to pursue ultra-competitive, high-level jobs.

  16. So many good comments!

    In Europe, feminism supported mothers from the get-go, and so was more willing to force workplaces to be more family-friendly.

    European feminists worked hand-in-hand with the existing labor movements and workers’ parties to make this so. IMHO, it was a tremendous tactical error on the part of the feminist movement in the seventies not to do the same thing. For myself, I find more meat-and-potatoes feminism coming from the AFL-CIO than I do from the so-called heavy hitters in the feminist movement. After reading Liberazione della Donne by Lucia Chiavola Birnbaum (about feminist movement in Italy), I became more convinced than ever that we need to be following the European model.

    When are women who are interested in having careers going to start selecting men who what to be the primary child care giver?

    Rick, it never occurred to me to do that, for the same reason it never occurred to me to be a stay-at-home-mother—it’s simply not economically feasible for most folks. Of those few who have this arrangement, most are doing so tenuously, and on a strictly temporary basis.

    Also, I think there’s problems with using the framing “primary” vs. “secondary” caregiver. Those terms aren’t relevant to the lives most of us lead, or have led. My parents, my grandparents, my great-grandparents both worked—can you tell me who was the “primary” or “secondary” caregivers? ‘Cuz I sure as hell can’t! And using such terminology within a preexisting competitive framework, where “first” and “second” carry rank and privilege, and it’s only going to continue to foster misunderstandings, misgivings, judgement and resentment.

    Let’s face it, like Marian said, most women aren’t staying home because they think it’s a woman’s place. They have limited choices, and all are bad. I’d argue the same is true for men. Men also enjoy parenting, and it hurts them to return to work, away from their babies, too. We can’t continue to allow the word “career” to infer “suit-wearing, highly-educated, long hours, six-figure-earning” to the exclusion of everyone else (seriously. especially in women’s magazines—go pick one up that has an article about the “plight of working women” or such—the graphics will depict a suit-and-pumps yuppie type with a phone in each ear and a laptop in front of her). We can’t continue to allow the framing of this issue to remain “men vs. women” or allow it to degenerate into “parent vs. nonparent”.

    The problem of work/home life balance predates feminism. It began with industrialism. There’s a ready-made antidote in the form of the Labor Movement (you know? the folks who brought you the weekend?).

  17. I never felt “pushed to carry the same oppression as men.” But I did feel pushed to work, to be able to work. Because my situation is my own regardless of others’ situations, and it was always obvious to me that I should not have children if I was not prepared to support them, any more than I should have a large dog if I couldn’t afford all those dog biscuits.

  18. Women who believe otherwise suffer from a mixture of false consciousness and impractical idealism.

    I think this is a major flaw underlying Hirshman’s approach. False consciousness arguments are cheap rhetorical tricks because any response is immediately chalked up to “that’s the patriarchy in you talking”. There are plenty of educated, intelligent women who genuinely choose to stay at home. Hirshman has no room for them in her theory and thus, has to resort to saying that they “suffer from a mixture of false consciousness and impractical idealism”. Aside from being offensive in assuming that women don’t understand the implications of their choices, she doesn’t offer a compelling argument for it.

  19. But if there were other options like the first commentor said–a maternity leave of a year, telecommuting (and employers who stop saying “We can’t afford the remote access”)

    I just want to speak to this as a manager. What your boss is saying here in managerspeak is: your productivity will drop like a rock, and it will be worse if you have kids who will be at home.

    I have yet to see an employee whose post-telecommute productivity doesn’t drop by at least 20%. For anyone except a programmer who’s well above average, I’m better off in the medium to long term finding a replacement than allowing more than occasional telecommuting (one day a week, plus days within reason to provide care/wait for the evil that is Fedex).

    And that’s not including the incredible hassle of trying to keep the full-time telecommuter involved and up to date. If you’ve got 2 hours of intensive design meetings a day, and a lot of small but important discussions happening in offices and hallways, the phone (or video, or IM) just doesn’t cut it. If I have to track and relay all direction changes to someone who’s offsite, it costs me time I could spend doing more productive work. If I don’t, that person will end up doing work we’ve discovered we don’t need (or not doing work we’ve discovered we need, or getting priorities wrong).

    Then you have to deal with the other employees. It’s amazing how pissed off they get when they have to do the work that the telecommuter isn’t getting done on top of their own workload (remember the productivity drop I mentioned earlier?) For a few weeks it’s OK, then they start complaining, because they’re doing more work with no additional compensation (and the telecomuter is doing less and getting the same).

    And who gets to telecommute? Only new parents? What about parents with older kids and no good/affordable daycare? How about people who have other caregiving responsibilities? But now you’ve got half the people telecommuting, and the other half doing the work the telecommuters have stopped doing, and they’re starting to ask to telecommute too (no fools they, they’ve seen that telecommuters at this point are doing 2/3 the work they are and getting away with it, who wouldn’t want that?) Where do you stop?

    Telecommuting is one of those things that sounds nice and friendly and easy, but in reality is way more of a pain in the rear than it’s worth, from the management side.

  20. I think this is a major flaw underlying Hirshman’s approach. False consciousness arguments are cheap rhetorical tricks because any response is immediately chalked up to “that’s the patriarchy in you talking”. There are plenty of educated, intelligent women who genuinely choose to stay at home. Hirshman has no room for them in her theory and thus, has to resort to saying that they “suffer from a mixture of false consciousness and impractical idealism”. Aside from being offensive in assuming that women don’t understand the implications of their choices, she doesn’t offer a compelling argument for it.

    It’s infantilizing in a way, too. It’s like the college kid being told by the “older, wiser” adult about her life goals: “You’ll understand it when you grow up and see how the world works. Right now you don’t know what you want.”

  21. When are women who are interested in having careers going to start selecting men who what to be the primary child care giver?… this is an interesting subject to me because I may well be entering into a situation where I won’t be Mr. Mom (no kids) but I might have the subordinate job.

    Hirshman’s recommendations are that women should: (a) be mercenary in their choice of qualifications and in their career – don’t do stuff for self-fulfilment, (b) marry someone (i) much younger, (ii) much less educated, (iii) much less ambitious, (iv) or ‘perhaps’ someone much older who’s established and wants to get out, (c) only have one kid.

    She thinks that’ll mean they have more of the upper hand in the relationship (defined as being able to dump childcare on your spouse).

    Why don’t women do this?

    My speculation is we have to blame social norms and men. Lots of men are already doing this making it tough on women who want to follow suit. And social norms make it more difficult for a women to marry in that direction than a man. I think in terms of social acceptance it’s easier for a male doctor to marry a female nurse than for a female doctor to marry a male nurse. Biology also comes into it, it’s easier for a 40 year old guy to have kids than a 40 year old women. So women don’t have as long to build up a career before having kids as men do, so it’s harder for them to marry down.

    jenofiniquity – she just assumes that most women want kids, and so much that it’s too much to ask them to give it up completely as a life goal. I think she respects childfree women, but thinks that choice isn’t one most women would be happy to make. Which I think is probably right.

  22. Rick, it never occurred to me to do that, for the same reason it never occurred to me to be a stay-at-home-mother—it’s simply not economically feasible for most folks.

    Right but as I said in the comment just above yours, I’m not talking about the average work-a-day situation, I’m specifically addressing the notion of limitations that women face in their pursuit of high-level, high compensation positions, and I am suggesting that these limitations could be mitigated to a great degree by the selection of a mate that would compliment the desire to excel in a highly competitive high compensation position.

    This, as a matter of fact is an example of one of those responses I talked about in my original comment that all strike me as avoiding the central issue. My reading of the excerpt in the post was about women perusing high-level, high compensation positions, not working people trying to make ends meet. If I have that wrong, fine, but my question stands, for the most part, unanswered.

  23. [W]omen should: (a) be mercenary in their choice of qualifications and in their career – don’t do stuff for self-fulfilment, (b) marry someone (i) much younger, (ii) much less educated, (iii) much less ambitious, (iv) or ‘perhaps’ someone much older who’s established and wants to get out, ( c) only have one kid.

    Why don’t women do this?

    My speculation is we have to blame social norms and men.

    I think women don’t do this because it’s a bad idea. First of all, it treats career as an end in and of itself. I’m inclined to believe that people (both men and women) make decisions that can afford them the kind of life they wish for themselves. A career is merely a means to that end. The suggestion that somebody ought set aside their prefered lifestyle in order to advance a career seems like backwards thinking.

  24. Rick, I’m not certain why women should do that. Men do not always do that. They simply either expect that the women you are referencing will either give up their high-powered careers without necessarily selecting for that first or that they will both work and find outside help. Why should women act any differently? I think that women in high-powered careers simply expect that both partners will work and don’t find this an issue. The fact that our careers may suffer if we have children is a problem with society, not our choices. Why should we limit our choices, especially when men in similar positions don’t and suffer no career downside for not doing so.

  25. My speculation is we have to blame social norms and men. Lots of men are already doing this making it tough on women who want to follow suit. And social norms make it more difficult for a women to marry in that direction than a man. I think in terms of social acceptance it’s easier for a male doctor to marry a female nurse than for a female doctor to marry a male nurse. Biology also comes into it, it’s easier for a 40 year old guy to have kids than a 40 year old women. So women don’t have as long to build up a career before having kids as men do, so it’s harder for them to marry down.

    I tried with my last ex. Not because I wanted kids, but because it seems like ambitious guys sure as hell don’t want someone like me. My last ex probably would make a better homemaker and childrearer than I, and who knows, maybe whoever he marries will let him stay at home, because he sure as fuck hates to work.

    Thing is, the ol’ gender stereotypes STILL were a problem. He still whined that he should be the provider so I could stay home, he was bugged that I had all the money, etc. Argh.

    I have yet to find anything that works there, really.

    jenofiniquity – she just assumes that most women want kids, and so much that it’s too much to ask them to give it up completely as a life goal. I think she respects childfree women, but thinks that choice isn’t one most women would be happy to make. Which I think is probably right.

    Yeah, Hirshman would REALLY be lynched if she said more people should be childfree or give up having babies. Even more than she’s being now.

  26. Right but as I said in the comment just above yours, I’m not talking about the average work-a-day situation, I’m specifically addressing the notion of limitations that women face in their pursuit of high-level, high compensation positions, and I am suggesting that these limitations could be mitigated to a great degree by the selection of a mate that would compliment the desire to excel in a highly competitive high compensation position.

    Now, I haven’t read Linda Hirshman, so I have no idea just how she is defining “highly educated, affluent” women; if she is describing six-figure earners in a highly volatile marketplace, or if she is using those terms to refer to any woman with a college degree—which would include teachers, nurses, biologists, etc. If the question is “why aren’t the high-earning female yuppies choosing stay-at-home mates the same way high-earning male yuppies do?” I think the answer is simple—(a) the men in their social circle don’t aspire to be homemakers, and they (just like their male counterparts) don’t choose working class mates, and (b) they expect to afford hired help for housework, gardening and child-care duties.

    I think it’s a valid criticism of Hirshman’s work that it assumes the choices of people who have always had the option of “opting out” have any influence on the decisions of everyday working women—-the women who comprise the vast majority. Nope. It doesn’t have an impact on me if Ms. Junior League decides to take the next ten years off. In fact, if Ms. Junior League decides to grab for the brass ring, it doesn’t have any impact on me. This is an area where I think class trumps gender. An upper-middle class woman isn’t any more (or less) capable of envisioning the struggles of working class parents than her male counterpart. It’s not a part of their visceral reality.

    That—and I have a huge problem with the idea that the needs of the working class majority aren’t the “central issue”. Or that because of my gender, I have to trot out some story that justifies my working—that I’m trying to “make ends meet.” Well, there have been times (and there will probably be more of them) where I was hanging on by the skin of my teeth. Most of the time though, that isn’t the case. I’m earning a comfortable life—one that won’t afford me the storied “house on the hill”, but that will provide me with the means to pay off my modest mortgage while still setting aside money for retirement and my daughter’s education. And I’m not calling you out personally for this Rick, I’m just saying that it’s a trend in these conversations to speak of female employment re: the work/home balance as if there are rich women, poor women, and no one else.

    For what its worth, I’ve certainly followed Linda Hirshman’s advice. What choice did I have? But it hasn’t brought me, or any other woman (or man), the benefits she seems to think it will. I still labor under the same June Cleaver myths my mother labored under—that because we are female, that our tenure as employees is only temporary, that we’ll leave the workforce after having children. I don’t know anyone under the age of fifty that has that life, but the myth is still extant. Why?

  27. Now, I haven’t read Linda Hirshman, so I have no idea just how she is defining “highly educated, affluent” women; if she is describing six-figure earners in a highly volatile marketplace, or if she is using those terms to refer to any woman with a college degree—which would include teachers, nurses, biologists, etc. If the question is “why aren’t the high-earning female yuppies choosing stay-at-home mates the same way high-earning male yuppies do?” I think the answer is simple—(a) the men in their social circle don’t aspire to be homemakers, and they (just like their male counterparts) don’t choose working class mates, and (b) they expect to afford hired help for housework, gardening and child-care duties.

    La Lubu, Hirshman’s original piece looked at, IIRC, women whose wedding announcements had run in the New York Times, which means that they’re quite elite. She specifically said that she limited her study to those women because they had options available to them that lower-income women did not, and thus provided a good source of data on choice feminism. Because, after all, how can you truly evaluate whether staying home is a choice when it’s not even an option?

    It’s a pet peeve of mine that that point gets lost in discussions of Hirshman’s articles, because it goes a long way to dispelling the charges of elitism.

  28. Yeah, Hirshman would REALLY be lynched if she said more people should be childfree or give up having babies. Even more than she’s being now.

    I suppose you’re right. but having children just isn’t that satisfying the way society is structured now. Of course, once you realize that, you’re in far too deep. but I’d rather have a satisfying career any day, were I in a position to choose.

  29. Wow. Comments really hates my habit of using dashes instead of periods and did some editing for me.

  30. When are women who are interested in having careers going to start selecting men who what to be the primary child care giver? I mean most women and men have a mental checklist about what they want from a mate, there are a lot of men who would reject a woman out of hand if she said that she would never remain in the home as a primary child care giver, why is it that so few women demand this as primary metric for mate selection?

    Well, I can only speak for myself here, but should I get married or be partnered with someone for life, I want to be with someone who works and shares childcare and housekeeping duties. I like to work, and having a job that I like and that challenges me is something I want in life. For me, having my mind engaged in several different areas — work, family, friends, etc — is what I enjoy. I want to be with someone who also has his hand in a wide range of areas, and who is ambitious and motivated and selects a career that challenges him. And I want to be with someone who has some part of his identity that’s just his — I don’t want my entire self to be wrapped up in my family, and I don’t want his to be, either.

    Yes, there’s a value judgment there, but I’m not trying to say that people who work are more interesting than people who don’t work. Just that my ideal mate, like me, has a job that interests him and a part of his life that is separate from the family. Which is why I don’t seek out someone who will want to stay home full-time, although I do expect that if kids ever enter the picture, we’ll share the responsibility 50/50.

  31. Ahhh, thanks, zuzu. But wouldn’t that demographic (women who have wedding announcements in the NYT) be there because of family dynastic money? I mean, they’d be listed regardless of whether they ever used their degrees or not?

    Sure, it makes perfect sense to study the women who actually do have a choice; the ones with a financial safety net so large that it’s not a gamble to leave work—they’ll make it anyway. My issue is that the trickle-down theory of social change works about as well as the trickle-down theory of economics—which is to say, not at all. If suddenly every single woman who ever had her wedding announcement in the NYT (and every other woman of that social strata) never left work, it still wouldn’t give us school and child-care hours that coincided with work hours. It wouldn’t improve the public schools. It wouldn’t improve the public parks. It wouldn’t give us paid parental/family leave. It wouldn’t do anything to make affordable housing available closer to the workplace. It wouldn’t do anything to bring down the time or cost of commuting to work. It wouldn’t bring down the sky-high cost of higher education. It wouldn’t do anything to restore the integrity of the eight-hour-day.

    Those are a sample of the issues that crop up at the breaktable on my jobsite. The groundswell has to come from the bottom, just like it did for the eight-hour day (which has been chipped away at so damn much it barely exists anymore). It’ll come. When people can’t stretch any damn more, it’ll come.

  32. Lesley and Jill,

    I’m not suggesting that women should or should not do anything, I am simply wondering why they don’t. Now Jill provided one answer when she wrote:

    Well, I can only speak for myself here, but should I get married or be partnered with someone for life, I want to be with someone who works and shares childcare and housekeeping duties. I like to work, and having a job that I like and that challenges me is something I want in life. For me, having my mind engaged in several different areas — work, family, friends, etc — is what I enjoy. I want to be with someone who also has his hand in a wide range of areas, and who is ambitious and motivated and selects a career that challenges him. And I want to be with someone who has some part of his identity that’s just his — I don’t want my entire self to be wrapped up in my family, and I don’t want his to be, either.

    OK, fair enough, but then you are making a choice as to the priority you will give you work life, and I have no issue nor would I criticize that choice. In this instance you are opting for balance and that is your priority. My sister and her husband do this, they share housework, they take turns staying home with sick kids and so on. But here is the rub, neither one of them can effectively pursue a high-level career in a uber competitive field, well they could be they won’t be all that successful because they will be competing with people, mostly men, who are in relationships where it is understood that the domestic side of the equation will not be his responsibility so he can give 100% attention to his work.

    Now the question becomes; is the glass ceiling a function of an oppressive patriarchy or a function of not enough women willing to subordinate all other aspects of their life to their careers like many men do? Now I understand the dynamics of the “old boy network” and I understand that even if a large % of women woke up tomorrow and made a conscious decision to make their work life a #1 priority that many of the things that tend to hold women back would not disappear with it. But what would happen is that more and more qualified women would be “in the channel” and you would eventually see more women in a position to mitigate these other factors.

    But considering the second part of Jill’s comment:

    Yes, there’s a value judgment there, but I’m not trying to say that people who work are more interesting than people who don’t work. Just that my ideal mate, like me, has a job that interests him and a part of his life that is separate from the family. Which is why I don’t seek out someone who will want to stay home full-time, although I do expect that if kids ever enter the picture, we’ll share the responsibility 50/50.

    Why you don’t “seek out someone who will want to stay home full-time…” is irrelevant, what is relevant is the fact is that Men are much more likely to seek out a woman who will subordinate her working life to his and those are the people you and other women will be competing with for the top jobs.

    Here is something else that struck me about Jill’s comment:

    I want to be with someone who also has his hand in a wide range of areas, and who is ambitious and motivated and selects a career that challenges him.

    And many women feel the same way. Women are attracted to men who are “ambitious, confident, motivated”, it’s a turn on, But look what your doing here, your saying that domestic child care and house keeping duties are the opposite of “ambitious, confident, motivated”. To put it in perspective you are devaluing what has traditionally been called “women’s work” that men who would opt to do this are decidedly not “ambitious, confident, motivated” which are the very things you find attractive, while a guy who would be happy doing what has traditionally been called “women’s work” is not someone you would find attrictive. (then you could launch into a long essay on self-loathing feminiests)

    Men as a group on the other hand are not as worried about “ambitious, confident, motivated” women, some might find such woman intimidating, but for many it’s simply not a priority for them, they are attracted to and find women who do not exhibit such qualities attractive to them for other reasons, like their willingness to find fulfillment raising children while they enter the career arena. In other words, the traditional patriarchy mandated division of labor.

    I guess my point here is that while a balanced relationship is great and an arrangement that most people, men and women alike, feel will yield the most fulfillment in life, the top people in any field whether it be leadership, science, art whatever, will be those who devote the most of their time and energy to that pursuit. And until more women opt for an arrangement where they don’t have to balance their work life with anything, most of the people who do get to the highest levels will be men for the most part.

    So again, I’m not advocating what women should do, I’m offering a prescription for breaking what has come to be known as the glass ceiling. I’m suggesting, and I could be dead wrong (wouldn’t be the first time), but until more women opt for a partnership where the man’s career is subordinate to theirs, the problem of women in top positions, or in the top echelons of thier fields will continue to be an issue. I’m also suggesting, that this won’t happen because men and women alike are either, victims of socialization, or simply hard-wired from a socio-biological perspective to want different things out of a relationship.

    I mean no one gets to the top of anything without sacrifice. Like John F. Kennedy once said, “show me a man with a good golf game and I’ll show you a man who neglects many very important aspects of his life”.

    god what wind bag I am……[grin]

  33. Rick, there’s a lot of social pressure on both men and women to be in relationships where the man makes more money. There’s a guy here at work whose wife makes more money than he does (she works at a big firm) and he gets a lot of crap from the other men about it. Especially the one with the stay-at-home wife.

    But wouldn’t that demographic (women who have wedding announcements in the NYT) be there because of family dynastic money? I mean, they’d be listed regardless of whether they ever used their degrees or not?

    Not necessarily. I haven’t really checked them in a while, but from time to time, I’d see someone I know listed there, who I know didn’t come from dynasty money. But they were usually lawyers at a big firm, with top-level educations, or a parent had been in politics, or something like that.

  34. Zuzu, interestingly enough my mom told me that she thinks it’s “hard on the male ego” when the wife is more successful, more financially rewarded, etc. than the husband. She is glad I don’t make more money than my husband for that reason. Although, she does have another daughter who is basically the “dad” in the relationship (from a traditional standpoint), and is always commenting that most men would be overwhelmed by my sister and that she lucked out.

    But my mom was born in the 40’s, so she’s forgiven. 🙂

  35. god what wind bag I am……[grin]

    Me too–you know, for someone who gave up her own blog due to “time issues,” I sure spend a lot of time writing books in the comment fields of others’ blogs, hehe!

  36. Rick, not for nothing, but when you phrase a question “When are women who are interested in having careers going to start selecting men who what to be the primary child care giver?”, implicit in that question is the idea that women aren’t doing something you think they ought. Otherwise, why the “When are women…going to start…?” If you don’t think women should do that, then “when they will start” is irrelevant.

    It seems self-evident to me that if highly compensated women aren’t doing that then either (1) we don’t value that attribute or (2) we don’t feel that option is particularly available and value a partner more than we do an abstract ideal. And why shouldn’t we? Speaking solely for myself, I would have been very happy to have met a man who was willing to stay home and be the primary care-giver. I just never did. At this point, it’s rather moot anyway, as I’m rapidly approaching an age where having children isn’t realistic, and I’m quite fine with that.

    I will also reiterate that men with highly compensated wives who continue to work after having children don’t suffer in their careers. We’re also competing with those men. The question you have asked is essentially asking why women don’t limit our choices for what should be a false dichotomy. I realize that it isn’t a false dichotomy as things currently stand, but I don’t think the solution to that is for us to limit our choices. It’s for the dichotomy to be recognized as the false one it is. I’m sorry, but I see no particular reason why women are being asked to sacrifice yet again, by limiting our partner choices, for something that is not our fault.

    Let me ask another question. When will men start recognizing that highly compensated women with children and non-stay-at-home partners can work just as effectively as highly compensated men in the same situation? Because isn’t that really the issue here? Discrimination?

  37. La Lubu, Hirshman’s original piece looked at, IIRC, women whose wedding announcements had run in the New York Times, which means that they’re quite elite

    Did Hirshman actually try to contact these women (and their partners) and ask them what their values were and what the factors that were driving their decisions? An interesting experiment might be to look at was Hirshman did and extend it back to 15 or 20 years ago and see if things have changed.

    I’m sorry, but I see no particular reason why women are being asked to sacrifice yet again, by limiting our partner choices, for something that is not our fault.

    Well, I don’t think that women who chose partners which allowed them to stay at home felt as if they were consciously limiting their choices. I think Rick was posing a more intellectual question, not asking why all women did not limit their choices, but why there are a much smaller, it seems, number of women, who just happen to possess these preferences for a partner that might be a primary caregiver, than men with women.

    It seems stupid. Whether a man or a woman, who wouldn’t consider a higher income a plus? I mean, if some men don’t consider a higher income a plus in a woman, that’s the man’s fault. I’m not saying that people are ‘gold diggers,’ only that you give a harder look at someone who has certain assets… physical or financial.

    For a woman looking at a man, that means, for the most part, financial assets, does it not? For a man looking at a woman, it isn’t so. That means ‘poor’ women aren’t at of as much of a disadvantage compared to ‘wealthy’ women (and by ‘poor’ and ‘wealthy’, when you’re in your twenties and thirties, this generally means what career aspirations you have) as wealthy men are to poor men, as long as they have physical assets. Women know this. That means there’s less incentive for women, from the perspective of mate selection, to choose a career that maximizes her income.

    If women in society were just as ambitious, just as skilled, just as professionally and recreationally contributive to the substance of society, then women as a gender would certainly be of an advantage to men, because in addition to all of that, womens’ physical attractiveness is a bigger asset to them then mens’ physical attractiveness is to him. Is it not so?

  38. I will also reiterate that men with highly compensated wives who continue to work after having children don’t suffer in their careers. We’re also competing with those men.

    Boomshot.

    Rick, you make it sound as if there hasn’t already been over thirty years of large numbers of educated women in the workforce who haven’t taken “time out” from their careers. There has—and we are still laboring under the assumption that our careers are only “temporary”. Why? And this isn’t just happening in the high-octane fields. Lemme give you an example.

    I’m a journeyman electrician. I’ve been out here since 1988. I am well respected in my Local. Foremen breathe a sigh of relief when I come on the job, because not only do I know what I’m doing, I make their jobs easier. I have always availed myself of every opportunity to enhance my electrical education. I keep current with the latest technology and trade developments, and am a subscriber to several trade journals. I do my job well, and developed a reputation early on for being an “overtime hound”, a position quite open to me as a single, childless person.

    Now, a perennial complaint of contractors is that when they bid jobs out of jurisdiction, that they can’t get core people who want to travel and do the job. Sure, they get folks to do it, but those people get burned out and refuse to take those jobs—it keeps them away from their families. This was the case for several contractors I worked for. Yet, it took not my selling myself as the perfect person for the job since (a) I could do it, (b) I loved to travel, and (c) I didn’t have any family complications to get in the way—no, it took the refusal of every other journeyman in the shop all male, before those contractors were willing to give me a shot.

    Now, I got the shot, and both they and I agreed that it worked out well. That’s a barrier that was broken down for me, and it is still in the process of being broken down for other women in the Local. I wasn’t fighting an assumption of lack of ability, I was fighting the assumption of lack of interest—though I did everything in my damn power to demonstrate that I was in the electrical trade to stay. Those contractors were relucant to move someone into a core position that they assumed would leave the trade.

    And in my trade, that’s an anecdote writ large. Every tradeswoman I know has a similar story. The most galling one came from a sister in a nearby local; I heard her story after taking a Code update class she taught. She had over twenty years under her tool belt, was a former union officer, was often called upon to be a foreman, and taught journey-level courses. Yet when she and her husband adopted two young boys (they had already raised some biological children, but weren’t ready to give up the child-raising yet!), she informed her contractor she’d be taking FMLA leave to help the boys adjust to their new home (they had been in the foster-care system). She was given ten lines of B.S. about “job dedication” and work vs. parenting. This wasn’t coming from her compadres on the jobsite—it was coming from the office.

    See, the folks in higher positions have the ability to ignore the objective record in favor of the subjective one. In my line of work, women don’t spend more time out than the men—even taking postpartum recovery into account. Men who spend a year or more recovering from an accident don’t take the career hit that women who spend six weeks postpartum do. Why? Especially in a field such as mine, where the “top people in the field” will never make the headlines (who are the top electricians in ths U.S., Rick? And what distinguishes them from the other journeymen?).

    I work with many single fathers. Just like me, they are single parents with no backup when the school calls to say, “come get your sick kid.” When they leave the jobsite, everyone assumes they aren’t going to leave their career. I’ve been an electrician for 18 years. How many more years will I have to spend before it is accepted by the office that yes, this actually is my career?

    You know what makes the difference? Not token higher-eschalon women. No, what makes the difference is critical mass. When the numbers of women at a given workplace or in a given field are high, there doesn’t tend to be this bullshit assumption that we’re here for the pin money, or to find a husband.

    I still find it mind-boggling that so many contractors assumed I was going to leave the field (after over a decade of working in it) when I had my daughter. What the hell did they think I was going to live on? Air?

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