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Always Something Nice to Say

Eteraz asked me via email about whether there’d been any movement to establish chivalry among queers. He started wondering after seeing a show on MTV involving gay people being mean to other candidates. I’m not familiar with that particular one, but I’ve seen many other examples.

…I have in the past heard people argue that being queer gives you freedom from gender relations, that it makes you more egalitarian. I have even heard that it makes you nicer. I will accept that this is true for some queers, and further accept that many of them use their queer sexuality to inform their egalitarian ethos and as a means of obtaining object lessons in anti-sexist gender relations. I will also accept that some queers have become saints by virtue of all that suffering. But otherwise? Not so much. We grew up here, too. We’re just as good at misogyny and unhappiness as you people are.

However, eteraz as I grok him is asking about something slightly different, namely chivalry. There are two operant definitions of chivalry. Both involve gendered generosity.

The first one is nostalgic: chivalry for men means being a gentleman who treats women like ladies. A gentleman is kind, respectful, honest, selfless, and always aware of his own strength and power. He does not strike women, no sir, nor seduce them. He precedes them downstairs and follows them upstairs. He holds doors, pays for dinner, and proposes marriage. The reciprocal counterpart for women is, well, ladylike behavior. A lady has style. She has grace. She always knows her place. She’s really thankful for her man’s refusal to rape/abuse/abandon/screw her. She doesn’t blow on another man’s dice. She’s the anti-bitch to his anti-rake.

The second definition is revisionist in the best way. Chivalry, involving as it did altruism towards an oppressed group, was limited. See, not all women could be ladies. That misogynist violence had to go somewhere, and so it was diverted from the good women onto the bad ones. The good women were chaste, wealthy, marriageable, white, and otherwise “our kind.” The bad ones were…everyone else. It was perfectly fine to rape, abuse, abandon, screw, or otherwise insult them. By some social calculi, they existed for that purpose. They had to be injured in order to keep ladies from being injured. Since most women could not be ladies, chivalry didn’t involve kindness to most women.

Both definitions of chivalry involve sexism. For purposes of this post, I’m gonna have to use both definitions. I don’t think eteraz was asking about a tendency on the part of privileged gay people to winnow out the good straights and scourge the rest, but it’s difficult to talk about the right way to behave without dealing with who gets to make right.

As to whether there’s gendered kindness and gentlemanly behavior on the part of gays…meh? There are gentlemanly butches. There are misogynist gay men. There are misogynist butches. There are gentlemanly gay men. There are anti-sexist lesbians and lesbians who don’t particularly care about sexism. There are feminist gay men and gay men who resent feminism. Between gay men, there’s femmephobia. Between lesbians, there’s femme invisibility. There are misogynist transmen and transwomen, and cisgendered queers who hate transpeople for reasons that seem to be closely related to woman-hating and sexism. There’s biphobia that also seems closely related to woman-hating and sexism, as well as to the slut-bashing that has traditionally punished women (and which is tied to the second definition of chivalry if not the first).

I would not argue that gay people in general have any allegiance to a chivalric code; it seems to be dated for most people, gay and straight. Much of the respect I see is a product of feminism or identity-politics investment rather than old-fashioned ideas about gentlemen and ladies.

Same-sex and same-sex-oriented environments include plenty of potential for sexism in the ways I’ve just described. However, they don’t always allow for the straightforward division–gentleman and ladies–that chivalry needs to function (setting aside for the moment that feminists can be vociferously uncooperative). Where would a drag queen fit into this picture? Should she be gentlemanly or ladylike? Does that change in relation to a gay man? A lesbian? A butch lesbian? Another femme? Another queer NOS? Do you draw the line based on sex, privilege, presentation, butch/femme quotient, or some combination of those three factors and maybe some others? Do you need more than one line? Would chivalry be compatible with an elaborate formal hierarchy like the one Louis XIV instituted at Versailles?

There’s also the problem of chivalry’s implicit division between bad and good women, and gentlemen and rakes. If femmes and butches are all dykes, where are the good women? What right do any of them have to demand kindness or freedom from abuse, since no man will ever make them honest? If all gay men are black sheep pervert faggots who will never marry or create any kind of stable household–who recruit and molest children because they can’t father them, who are characterized by their alienation from their fathers and overidentification with their soft and passive mothers–how can they be men in that old-fashioned patriarchal sense of justly exercised power? And if our communities are sex-segregated for orientation reasons, where do you apply a gendered code of behavior? If all the women are excluded, what reason is there to create a code of treatment for them? If exclusion is unproblematic, why would any other kind of mistreatment be cause for concern? If men aren’t considered members, why would any woman define worth or safety in terms of their protection? It’s possible to draw these lines, but I don’t think it’s always easy.

Competing power differentials are also at play in this instance. Gay men saying nasty things about women may not see themselves as speaking across a man/woman hierarchy. The might see themselves as speaking across a straight/gay hierarchy. Saying Mean Things–sometimes referred to as cattiness, bitchiness, reading, or reading someone’s beads–is a proud tradition among queers, and not just gay men. At its best, it’s a reversal-reversal: a way of calling the deserving out on their narrow-minded, selfish, heartless lives with incisive wit. (Here’s a better blog entry than mine on the subject.) At its worst, it’s just plain nasty and uncalled-for, and it supports oppression rather than laughing at it. We privilege scathing commentary, and can sometimes accept it less critically than it deserves. (I don’t think we’re too different from straight people in this respect.)

Tokenism is another function of the power differential. For some reason, mainstream media outlets are not falling all over themselves to help Imani Henry hold forth on social justice to everyone out there in TV Land. Queers aren’t yet allowed to speak, either as themselves or for their own sake. No one wants to hear from queer feminists, or devote attention to the relationship between queer rights and feminism. No one wants to feel implicated or uncomfortable. We’re allowed to be catty and fun, not angry and serious. While the fashion police (or whichever interchangeable hosts) aren’t the only woman-bashing gaymo assberets out there, they’re over-represented in a culture that would otherwise like the gays to shut the hell up.


16 thoughts on Always Something Nice to Say

  1. Hey Piny,

    This is a lot to take in and I’ll have to follow the link, but I appreciate the expansive response.

    This part hurt my feelings:

    The first one is nostalgic: chivalry for men means being a gentleman who treats women like ladies. A gentleman is kind, respectful, honest, selfless, and always aware of his own strength and power. He does not strike women, no sir, nor seduce them. He precedes them downstairs and follows them upstairs. He holds doors, pays for dinner, and proposes marriage. The reciprocal counterpart for women is, well, ladylike behavior. A lady has style. She has grace. She always knows her place. She’s really thankful for her man’s refusal to rape/abuse/abandon/screw her. She doesn’t blow on another man’s dice. She’s the anti-bitch to his anti-rake.

    How come you make it seem like that? In Honor and a Danish Honor Killing I wrote about the best case vision of honor/chivalry.

    For an “honor” purist such as myself, this connection between property, woman and honor is really troubling. I never imagined when conceiving of honor in my head during my youth that honor had anything to do with anyone or anything else. Admittedly, my “idea” of honor was ingrained to me by way of three strangely science-fiction characters. The first was Sturm Brightblade of the DragonLance Chronicles who is a follower of the knight-god “Paladine” and lives his life by the “Oath and the Measure” a thirty volume book of rules of honor. The second was Worf, from Star-Trek, who lived by the Klingon code of honor. The third was Drizzt the dark elf, about whose honor I’ve written in the past. What I learned from this more “stripped down” and “fiction” vision of honor was that the basics of honor lie in one’s own person, not in the person of another, or in any tangible goods. I often conceived of honor as an invisible rope shooting forward into time and space that the “honorable” cling closely to. In Islamic terms, one might call this the Quranic “Rope of God” or the “Sirat ul Mustaqeem” (the straight path). Whatever you want to call it, as I stated, it is virtually inconceivable to me that honor be anything but the most selfish of things. It is a form of self-worship, a form of self-immersion. It speaks and addresses only one’s own person. In theory, and in those who have the spiritual purity to make certain at any given time it is they and they alone who are the “targets” of one’s perpetual ascent towards honor, it is certainly a most beautiful thing.

    In other words, in all fairness to the “dated” honor people (such as myself), I think our best case scenario version should be represented.

  2. Forgot to include this part of the excerpt:

    But that selfishness of honor can easily become “honor-killing” — or the equally sinister “honor-obsession” or “honor-culture.” From being a force of good and purity, honor can become a destructive monster when it starts to assume that another person has come to represent honor. It is for this reason I have never been a great fan of those romanticized visions of the past in which a man vows that his honor is connected to some great “lady.” For the same reason I have not been a fan of those other men who look upon their children and say “these are my honor” or look upon their wealth and say “this is my honor.” No, you fool: your honor is inside you, and you can’t delegate it to another, and you shouldn’t delegate it to another because another person should not be forced to bear the burden of your honor; each one of us must bear that burder on our own, in our own souls. If you want to connect your honor to anyone, connect it to those things that you know will never let you down (and if they will let you down, to things you cannot hurt). There are only two such beings: Nothing and God.

  3. In other words, in all fairness to the “dated” honor people (such as myself), I think our best case scenario version should be represented.

    I didn’t actually have time to read that yet. I’ll get to it soon, I swear.

    I see “honor/chivalry” as a false conjunct. There are codes of honor that involve altruism in general; they are based on the belief that you should treat other people with kindness and respect, that you shouldn’t go around hurting people. There are codes of honor among queers that are ambigendered, all based on communal protective generosity. Chivalry is explicitly sexist, and sexism, even well-intentioned sexism, is not good for women. Better writers and feminist thinkers than I have detailed its problems.

  4. One thing I found pretty interesting that bears relevance: sodomy was not made a common law crime until 1533.

    So assuming it lasted from 1533 — 2004 (Lawrence v. Texas) maybe gays ought to look at periods outside of that time for instances of gay-relations. Of course, the only ones I can think of are Hellenic or Muslim Spain.

  5. Chivalry is explicitly sexist, and sexism, even well-intentioned sexism, is not good for women.

    I agree to an extent. Chivalry is only sexist if the woman is told or society tells her or she assumes that he is being chivalric FOR her.

    As Goethe said: If i love you, how is that your concern?

    I’m trying to conceive of gender-relations in purely selfish terms.

    Same with honor.

  6. Well, I think it’s sexist if it’s based on a belief in inherent female weakness.

    And there was a book about gay relationships in pre-modern times. Maybe an alert reader will come up with the link.

  7. Eteraz, I recognize the sentiments you are describing as honor. It’s been a long time since I read Dragonlance but I remember the qualities that Paladine represented. I think chivalry, especially when it overlaps with the Sirat al Mustaqeem, is about having integrity and adhering to a personal code of conduct. A code of conduct that emphasizes selflessness over selfishness and helping the weak with one’s own strength. It is kindness towards others that also respects the people it is directed against.

    But historically, many people (mostly men) who advocate chivalry have had less noble intentions. They adopted the trappings of chivalrous behavior, but were selective in its implementation. They treated some women with kindness (to compensate them for their perceived “weakness”, both physical and legal) but decided that other women were undeserving of such consideration. They paid for dinner but had expectations in return. They held doors open, but got huffy if a door was held open for them.

    It is sad that the mere trappings of chivalry have become so closely twined with the idea of it, and its practitioners use it to disguise chauvanism while ignoring the consideration that’s supposed to go with it.

    Then again, most good ideas have been confounded and corrupted at some point. Why should this be any different? sigh

  8. I’d just like to note that the chivalry that eteraz is referring to is both idealized and fictionalized — and that it is idealized and fictionalized by two women authors. This probably has some effect on both (a) his perception of it and (b) the actual badness of the concept that he appears to be referring to.

    — ACS

  9. Eteraz said:
    Chivalry is only sexist if the woman is told or society tells her or she assumes that he is being chivalric FOR her.

    Excuse me… What? First of all, the whole premise of chivalry is that it’s supposed to be for the woman (protecting her, being kind to her, etc., etc.). Secondly, boiling chivalry down to that as the “only” sexist part ignores the history of chivalry as well as the way it’s practiced now.

    I highly suggest that you read On Chivalry, which addresses a few of the different ways in which chivalry is not good manners but is, in fact, sexism.

    Here’s an excerpt:

    Chivalry, in its original form and the bastardized version that’s touted today, may include common courtesies but the gendered slant takes it out of the arena of strict good manners. It’s good manners with conditions: I’ll open this door for you if you’re a woman, because I’m supposed to be nice to women. I’ll buy dinner for you because you’re a woman. I’ll do this and that because you’re a woman and my parents told me that women need/want to be treated this way. Not, you know, because we should be kind to those around us.

    I address other issues such as the double standards — how men won’t go through doors that I’ve opened for them, but will expect me to go through ones that they opened for me — the way that I, and other women, are shamed if we try to opt out of this arrangement, and I briefly touch on the gender implications — that certain “chivalrous” acts would be seen as emasculating if done on men, but are forced onto women. I don’t go so much into the “gilded cage” syndrome, but it’s an undercurrent throughout.

    Basically, if I had to choose the main reason why chivalry is sexist, I’d choose the fact that it erases my personhood. It erases my choice to be treated the way I want to be treated. It erases my personality, and my likes/dislikes, and my opinions on things. It, in effect, erases me because I, personally, don’t like being treated that way.

  10. I was all about chivalry and honor and stuff until I realized that I was supposed to be the dainty one. That’s when I realized how condescending it was. If someone would treat me in a way predicated not on my wants but on what they had superficially determined me to BE, well, it kinda killed the love real quick b/c I never wanted to make anyone feel like that.

  11. I address other issues such as the double standards — how men won’t go through doors that I’ve opened for them, but will expect me to go through ones that they opened for me — the way that I, and other women, are shamed if we try to opt out of this arrangement, and I briefly touch on the gender implications — that certain “chivalrous” acts would be seen as emasculating if done on men, but are forced onto women.

    You know, it really clicked when you mentioned that men might feel emasculated when women do chivalrous acts for men. I never thought about that before, but it really makes sense.

    It’s second nature for me to return kindness to another person. When I am with a friend or intimate other, and I detect a pattern of holding doors open or some similar behavior, I feel obligated to respond in kind. This is done mostly out of politeness and a sense of awkwardness that arises when another person is going out of their way to be kind toward me. (I do admit that sometimes, with particularly sexist/macho men, I will do it because their behavior is annoying me.) I’ve never—until now—really understood why some men get their undies in a bunch when I return chivalrous behavior. “Reversed” chivalry puts men in the role of the “feminine” (read: weakness) and women in the role of power. Not surprisingly, this irks the hell out of some men.

    You’d think I would have gotten this by now. In the past, I had always chalked up guys’ weirdness over this matter as simple bullheadedness.

    I have to ask this question of the guys out there: do you really think that being cast in the role of weakness makes women feel all that great about themselves? If you don’t like being treated that way yourself, why do you think it’s OK to impose these roles on us?

  12. I don’t think that but then I also work part-time in retail (outdoor/adventure gear) which attracts a lot of burly outdoorsy types. One of my favorite things to do is make guys feel awkward by holding doors open for them or impose myself in carrying heavy objects for them despite their objections. It’s really hilarious how easy men’s egos bruise over the dumbest things.

  13. *smile* That’s just too funny, Ack Ack Ack Ack.

    I used to do the same thing to male patrons at a natural food store that I worked at during the 90’s. I used to carry five gallon containers of water (the same kind you see in water coolers) out to guy’s cars. They usually had mildly embarrassed looks on their faces.

    I loved every moment of it.

  14. “So assuming it lasted from 1533 — 2003”? You’re switching countries. Anti-sodomy laws were struck down elsewhere earlier on; and some places still have them.

    Same-Sex Relations in Early Modern Europe is John Boswell, if I may be the Alert Reader.

  15. I have to ask this question of the guys out there: do you really think that being cast in the role of weakness makes women feel all that great about themselves? If you don’t like being treated that way yourself, why do you think it’s OK to impose these roles on us?

    I’ve tried a few ways of answering this, but none of them really sat right.

    I can’t imagine that “being cast in the role of weakess” would make anybody feel good about themselves. It didn’t for me when I was a kid.

    But before I can answer more fully, I need to know more specifcally what you mean be “being cast in the role of weakness”. There are people that take offers of help as implications of weakness (such as the tough guys whose water you carried) when no such implication exists. Are they being cast in the role of weakness? Without a clearer picture of what that does and doesn’t mean, I can’t really expand on that.

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