Brickbats and Brick Walls

74 thoughts on Brickbats and Brick Walls

1. The point of my post–the reason why it’s debatable as to whether or not WC’s comment was racist–is that the WC seemed to be asking the question of Nubian-qua-dark-skinned-person, not Nubian-qua-someone of black ethnicity. WC’s question seemed to be completely off the cuff, just a random question that occurred to her. Do you seriously believe that any time someone has a random question about something so mundane as how skin color affects perceived temperature that they should go and do research in order to find out the answer? Or if you disagree with me that the question is mundane, why? I fail to see why you believe that the question is loaded with so much meaning and judgment. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, you know?

2. Do you seriously believe that any time someone has a random question about something so mundane as how skin color affects perceived temperature that they should go and do research in order to find out the answer?

   Why not?

3. Kate was amazing, although I think my favorite piece was either the drummers or the trapeze artist. Holy crap, I wish I were that physically strong.

   Er, topic? Questions like that make me cringe, and frankly I’m amazed nubian didn’t, like, kick the questioner in the shins.

4. Kate was amazing, although I think my favorite piece was either the drummers or the trapeze artist. Holy crap, I wish I were that physically strong.

   I know! Or that coordinated! Sean Dorsey’s piece was amazing, too.

   All our elders should have labrys piercings.

   Er, topic? Questions like that make me cringe, and frankly I’m amazed nubian didn’t, like, kick the questioner in the shins.

   Then they could have discussed different perceptions of physical pain!

   Sigh.

5. Well, for one thing, if she really wanted to know the answer to her question she should have asked a biologist or a doctor or something.

   Why expect every black person to be experts on the comparitive physiology of black people vs. white people? It’s not like we discuss it at the annual meeting.

   And the questions you get about “What’s a transgender” remind me of the questions my father gets all the time about being muslim. “Why do you hate America?” and whatnot.

6. Why expect every black person to be experts on the comparitive physiology of black people vs. white people? It’s not like we discuss it at the annual meeting.

   There’s that, too. Why would nubian know any more about melanin etc. than the arm-grabber?

   And the questions you get about “What’s a transgender” remind me of the questions my father gets all the time about being muslim. “Why do you hate America?” and whatnot.

   *Snort*

   “Not America. Just you.”

7. Taking responsibility for one’s ignorance means inquiring wherever you can, researching, but most of all listening. The only reason her question was directed at nubian was because nubian was black. Her ignorance came in many forms, but the fact that her question was directed at nubian not because of any expertise she had in body temperature/melanin research, not because nubian wore a sign saying “ask me about my skintone!” and not because she’d already polled every other woman in the area as to their scientific opinions on the matter. nubian was there, and she was black, meaning that the woman felt entitled to walk up to her and ask her a stupid question. Asking the question took up a little bit of her time, and may have distracted her from her day to day goings on. She then had to conjure up a response to the woman’s idiocy. Not to even mention the potential offense that such a question mgiht pose.

   In other words, she looked at nubian, and she saw a colored woman, and that meant that nubian didn’ have a right to her time, that the white woman’s query takes precedent over a black woman’s time, energy, and emotions.

   I’m a token Jew, and you would not believe the questions I get from people, complete strangers really, because I attend a primarily Baptist and Catholic private school in the south. Because of my minority staus, it is apparently my “duty” to answer every damned schmo who wants to know what the hell Passover is or what a Star of David means. My status means that their question, as a Christian, is more important than my time.

   Furthermore, it is presumed that I, as a Jew, have had the same experiences as all other Jews, therefore asking one is asking them all. My response to the question will determine their opinion of what “Jews” think of the subject. Further still, it is my job no only to answer their questions but to have the knowledge they seek. Because I am a Jew, obviously I am an encyclopedia of knowledge about Judaism, just as they, as Christians, know the Bible word for word, have read every commentary on it, know its full history, and are by all accounts theological scholars. Because their mental conception of me is so defined by the piece of my identity as a Jew, obviously my own self-conception is tied solely to my religion, and therefore I have spent a lifetime doing nothing but research my faith.

   The point is, taking responsiblity for one’s own ignorance means shutting up and listening. It means seeking out the information without assuming that everyone who isn’t just like you is, by their very existence, a knowledge resource for you

8. I still have to say I sympathize with the white woman in this scenario. Let’s say that two white people (“Alan” and “Bob”) are having a conversation. Alan has lived in the Midwest his whole life, whereas Bob was born and raised in Alaska (Alan knows this, they are friends and the topic has come up before). It’s hot out that day, and Bob comments on it. Alan responds, “Yep, and I guess it’s probably worse for you, being from Alaska. How hot did it get there in the summertime, anyway?”

   Is that question offensive? Is it “statist”? Is it inappropriate? Certainly Alan could have gone to this site and found the answer without bothering Bob about it; Bob probably gets questions about Alaska all the time and is sick of it. So Bob might be a little irritated, and understandably so, but if he was to become outraged, and accuse Alan of being some kind of anti-Alaskan bigot, would that make any sense? Alan didn’t happen to be around a computer when the question of Alaskan temperatures came up, but he did happen to be around a person who could give him a first-hand, definitive answer to the question. So, without thinking much about it, he asked.

   And I know that you could say that this is different because of the historic (and current) prejudice involved. But that is begging the question: you can’t prove racist intent by assuming it. Without a mind-reading device, the most you can be sure of is that this person was a bit naive, but if the majority has a responsibility (and they do) to exercise caution to avoid giving even unintentional offense to the minority, I believe the minority has some responsibility in return to give the benefit of the doubt where possible, and not to take offense unless there is more unambiguous evidence of bad intent then I see here.

   I will say, Piny, that I think somebody who had behaved in a similar way with a question about transgender issues might have been crossing the line; people expect a certain amount of privacy regarding their sex and sexuality that they don’t expect over, say, their sensitivity to heat. (Although one might question whether somebody who regularly writes about their experience as a transgendered person, in a traditionally interactive medium, should be complaining about receiving e-mails with questions about that experience.)

9. I will say, Piny, that I think somebody who had behaved in a similar way with a question about transgender issues might have been crossing the line; people expect a certain amount of privacy regarding their sex and sexuality that they don’t expect over, say, their sensitivity to heat. (Although one might question whether somebody who regularly writes about their experience as a transgendered person, in a traditionally interactive medium, should be complaining about receiving e-mails with questions about that experience.)

   Yes, well, that’s a perspective on social norms that most people don’t share with you, OhioBoy. And I don’t receive these emails as Piny, but I understand how you could misunderstand.

10. In other words, she looked at nubian, and she saw a colored woman, and that meant that nubian didn’ have a right to her time, that the white woman’s query takes precedent over a black woman’s time, energy, and emotions.

    I’ll remember this the next time a stranger on the street asks me where the nearest subway station is. What, he thinks that just because I’m walking around in the neighborhood I know the answer to that question? That his query takes precedence over my time, energy, and emotions as a person who happens to be walking around in the neighborhood? Obviously he should just go look it up on a map.

11. It’s a little like those people who email me with questions like:

    I was reminded, by this entire brouhaha, of your introductory post here.. “I am a this, that and this” (sorry, I obviously don’t recall the exact terms) and my first reaction was “Whazzat?”

    I don’t know if it’s just common courtesy or a result of having been asked to explain myself (hair, color, other people’s colors, sweat glands, swimming ability, child raising, etc, etc) all my life, and being awfully darn tired of it, it never occurred to me to email or to ask you in any way to explain. I went and asked a friend who, while not a tranny himself, has roots in various communities and he was able to give me an explanation. If he didn’t know or I had been seeking in depth knowledge, google is always there.

    What I don’t understand is the mindset that allows people to think it’s perfectly natural to ask for explanations of visible or other differences of relative strangers, and then when someone objects, or things like this are discussed, to then come out with “well, see it’s things like this that cause some white people to be wary of talking to black people. You never know what they are going to call racist!”. Or, “it’s only to be expected that if you’ve not been around minorities all your life that you would not really know how to talk to them” and blah blah blah, variations of which have been said in most of these conversations. I find that incredibly racist and dehumanizing.

    But, in the interests of educating people (cough), there is no such thing as learning how to talk to “Black People”. You can, if you are interested, learn to talk to the person right in front of you, and speak to them as if they are a separate individual from the person who may be right next to them that may share their skin color, but not their history, their personality, their life’s goals or anything else.

12. I’ll remember this the next time a stranger on the street asks me where the nearest subway station is. What, he thinks that just because I’m walking around in the neighborhood I know the answer to that question? That his query takes precedence over my time, energy, and emotions as a person who happens to be walking around in the neighborhood? Obviously he should just go look it up on a map.

    Totally. And if he assumes that your gender makes you a great person to ask about his marital problems, I’m sure you’ll let him buy you coffee so you can have a heart to heart about the inside of his wife’s head.

13. Esme clarified my objection a bit:

    My status means that their question, as a Christian, is more important than my time.

    Take out “as a Christian” and this statement could be applied to any question, asked by anybody to anybody else, in all of human history. Any time anybody asks a question of somebody else, they are implying that their question is more important than the other person’s time. So why does “as a Christian” need to be in that sentence at all? I think Esme, Piny, and Nubian are viewing this through the lens of race/gender/religion because they have been trained, by society but also by themselves, to view everything through the lens of race/gender/religion. And I know (or I believe, since I can’t claim to have experienced this myself) that it’s hard to put aside a long personal history of undeniable and unambiguous hateful and bigoted speech, in order to give a fair and unprejudiced hearing to every new encounter. But what you are asking the majority to do every day (as everyone should be!) is to put aside long-ingrained and societally-reinforced prejudices in order to view you clearly and without prejudice, and I don’t think it is asking too much to expect the same in return.

    And quite frankly, the idea that it is everybody’s responsibility to be educated about all races, religions, and sexualities, is ludicrous. I’m willing to bet (though I could be wrong) that Piny, Esme, and Nubian all are relatively ignorant about, say, the Amish, or Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, all of which are significant minority populations in this country. And if they were ever in conversation with a member of one of those groups, they might well reveal that ignorance. But as long as they know they are ignorant, and recognize that society’s stereotypes of those groups are merely stereotypes, then I think they’re doing their job as a responsible citizen.

14. Very well said, OhioBoy. I totally agree with you. I think the disagreement in this debate must be due to some deep difference in the respective parties’ worldviews. We can’t agree, we can’t understand, we can’t seem to convince each other, and we don’t know why (and no, it’s not ’cause either group is stupid). We might understand each other better if we could figure out what that difference is.

15. I think Esme, Piny, and Nubian are viewing this through the lens of race/gender/religion because they have been trained, by society but also by themselves, to view everything through the lens of race/gender/religion. And I know (or I believe, since I can’t claim to have experienced this myself) that it’s hard to put aside a long personal history of undeniable and unambiguous hateful and bigoted speech, in order to give a fair and unprejudiced hearing to every new encounter. But what you are asking the majority to do every day (as everyone should be!) is to put aside long-ingrained and societally-reinforced prejudices in order to view you clearly and without prejudice, and I don’t think it is asking too much to expect the same in return.

    No, we are viewing questions in the context of race/gender/religion as questions in the context of race/gender/religion, because that’s what they are. How do you reconcile this idea of due diligence with giving the ignorant white woman a pass on her behavior?

    And quite frankly, the idea that it is everybody’s responsibility to be educated about all races, religions, and sexualities, is ludicrous. I’m willing to bet (though I could be wrong) that Piny, Esme, and Nubian all are relatively ignorant about, say, the Amish, or Mormons, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, all of which are significant minority populations in this country. And if they were ever in conversation with a member of one of those groups, they might well reveal that ignorance. But as long as they know they are ignorant, and recognize that society’s stereotypes of those groups are merely stereotypes, then I think they’re doing their job as a responsible citizen.

    Yes! That would indeed be ludicrous, were it what anyone was saying. That’s a strawman.

16. Asking for directions or the time is not comparable to asking a question about someone’s race, religion, or gender. Directions and time are common knowledge. Many consider it an intrusion to be asked about their children, even if those children are running around the person in question. I wouldn’t dare to walk up to a man in a nice suit and ask him about his income and business, though obviously his suit indicates that he is wealthy, and has the knowledge I seek.

    “As a Christian” is of relevance because I am not being asked to help this person learn something about a different faith. No one has ever approached me apologetically and asked if I have the time to explain my faith to them. Instead I am asked blunt questions, often revealing a lot of ignorance about common courtesty along with the subject of their question. This person doesn’t want to sit and listen to me talk for hours on end about the religion. It’s about them talking to me. It is NOT about listening.

17. “As a Christian” is of relevance because I am not being asked to help this person learn something about a different faith. No one has ever approached me apologetically and asked if I have the time to explain my faith to them. Instead I am asked blunt questions, often revealing a lot of ignorance about common courtesty along with the subject of their question. This person doesn’t want to sit and listen to me talk for hours on end about the religion. It’s about them talking to me. It is NOT about listening.

    It’s also not reciprocal. If I give someone the time of day, I assume I can ask them if I need to know when the bus is coming.

18. I wrote this in my original response, but no one responded to it, so I’ll write something similar again:

    I think we can all agree that the behvaior in the particular instance Nubian documented falls beyond the pale. Now let’s disconnect that completely from what Ohioboy and Sarah Brodwell are saying, since it’s the connection that’s chafing people. Put aside the original outrage, then, and ask yourself:

    Under what conditions would you think it appropriate to answer questions about sexual/racial/gender differences? I say this because, for example, the LGBT community at UCI frequently has outreach seminars designed to inform the study body about issues important to LGBT community. Almost without fail, the first and most important is “tolerance.” They feel that its promotion comes best through structured events in which outsiders are soaked in an atmosphere of “difference,” an experience which is often as alienating as it is educating. (Esp. for people like me who are naturally uncomfortable in social settings.)

    Outside of pre-planned and, frankly, inhumanly anti-septic events–not because of the participants, obviously, but because of the nature of all such events–how are ignorant folks to learn to be sympathetic with members of a community they may not even know the existence of? Or, if they do know of its existence, what if they have been raised such that they would never participate in, and may actively protest, a LGBT event?

    There are some ignorant people out there who are ignorant by circumstance, not choice. Every year I teach more home-schooled kids who’ve never watched television, read books or seen movies which their parents haven’t vetted for content. All they “know” about the LGBT community is what they’ve been told, and there’s been no opportunity for them to humanize members of it. If one of them asked a sincere, non-judgmental question about homosexuality, how would you–general “you” here–answer? “Go online”? What would Google turn up and would you want that to be the first images of homosexuality this ignorant child encounters?

    I only ask because, as a slight, well-groomed man in his 20’s I’m often mistaken by such students for a homosexual–and the fact that I lived with a gay man for a year doesn’t help sway that impression. (You should see their faces when I say for a while I lived with my wife and a gay man. They don’t know what to think.) All of which is only to say that I think if we separate the obvious outrageousness of Nubian’s example from the general circumstances in which such a question could be asked acceptably, we may have a more productive conversation.

19. Piny, I’m with you for the most part until this:

    But this woman… isn’t doing anything to solve the problem of her ignorance. She doesn’t feel any obligation to do so. I’m gonna go ahead and call that racist.

    At most, it’s rude, inconsiderate, obnoxious, & stupid. But I’m careful not to define racism so broadly that it loses its thunder. I doubt this woman, stupid as she may be, was motivated by conscious or subconscious racism. She strikes me as the kind of person who would ask a bald man if his head gets sunburned in the summer. That doesn’t make her a “baldist” – just an idiot.

20. So if someone isn’t intending to be racist, ipso facto nothing they do is racist?

21. It’s also not reciprocal. If I give someone the time of day, I assume I can ask them if I need to know when the bus is coming.

    I bet you a dollar that it in this case it was, in fact, reciprocal, and that if Esme was to in turn ask a question about Christianity, that her questioner would love to respond, probably at far greater length than she wanted to hear. Again, I really think what’s happening here is that Esme and Nubian are predisposed (understandably!) by their life in a hostile society, to view every exchange through the most negative possible interpretation. Let me just say, as a straight white male, that one of the advantages of being in the majority is that we don’t think about race/gender/religion nearly as much as minorities do, since we’re not forced to. Sure, this can be a problem, and like I say, the questioners in this case were certainly at least naive not to realize that they might be causing offense, but it also means that it is simply not always the case that darker motives are at work.

    So if someone isn’t intending to be racist, ipso facto nothing they do is racist?

    No, but neither is it the case that the fact that you took offense proves that something offensive was said. For example, if somebody uses the word “niggardly”, and a black person present, not realizing that the word has nothing to do with the term “nigger”, takes offense at that, does that somehow prove that the person that used the word was being racist?

22. So if someone isn’t intending to be racist, ipso facto nothing they do is racist?

    That’s not what I said or what I meant. Racism conotes superiority, unfair prejudice, & hatred. I don’t see any of those in Nubian’s account of what happend. I just see an idiot asking a dumb question. The fact that it had to do with Nubian being black is incidental. If she had asked a similar question to a random bald person, it would be the same thing.

23. I bet you a dollar that it in this case it was, in fact, reciprocal, and that if Esme was to in turn ask a question about Christianity, that her questioner would love to respond, probably at far greater length than she wanted to hear.

    So, why don’t you think that evolution actually happened? Do you really believe that public school is a snakepit? Why are you people all so opposed to abortion, anyway? Why do you hate gay people? Why do you hate sex? Why do you hate Jews? Is your husband not circumcised? Why not? Is that weird for you? Have you ever seen an angel? Oh, and do you people eat special foods on those days or something?

    If they were the only one in the room, and if they were repeatedly subjected to interrogation, I doubt very much that they would continue to be as interested in answering questions from random strangers.

    No, but neither is it the case that the fact that you took offense proves that something offensive was said. For example, if somebody uses the word “niggardly”, and a black person present, not realizing that the word has nothing to do with the term “nigger”, takes offense at that, does that somehow prove that the person that used the word was being racist?

    And what about that old lady who sued McDonald’s for eleventy billion dollars? If someone is inconsiderate enough to use the word “niggardly” in front of a bunch of people who might well take offense given that it’s a homonym for the most famous racial slur of all time, is he not being racist?

24. It was the assumption that nubian would know if it was “hotter” having dark skin than light that was so offensive. That’s where the problem of being the “other” comes in. Why would nubian know how hot or cool it is with lighter skin in order to compare it to hers?

25. I think what Sarah and OhioBoy are conveniently forgetting is that this woman didn’t just ask Nubian a question–she badgered her, trying to get Nubian to reinforce her (stupid, stupid) theory about black skin being hotter than white. “Come on, doesn’t it make sense?” isn’t too far from “Come on, back me up on this, scientifically you’ve just got to be feeling the heat more than I am, ’cause you’re darker!”

    That’s not someone who “just wants to find out” or “just wants to learn.” That’s an ignorant jackass. And to me, where the racism comes in is in that expectation that Nubian would, SHOULD, support and confirm her jackassery. You can’t reasonably blame Nubian for wanting to run the woman over with her bike at that point.

    If someone is inconsiderate enough to use the word “niggardly” in front of a bunch of people who might well take offense given that it’s a homonym for the most famous racial slur of all time, is he not being racist?

    My thought here is, “No, the opposite.” The guy assumed the people in the room were, like himself, aware of the origins and meaning of “niggardly.” Othering them, in that instance, would have been if he’d thought, “Oops, better not use that word–these poor, ignorant black folk might confuse it with a racial slur. You know Those People have very limited vocabularies.”

26. Esme. That’s correct. No racism.

27. Although intent is certainly not the lone prerequisite for true racism, it can’t be dismissed, either–and I would argue that being sensitive enough to make the distinction between deliberate and inadvertent insults, between ignorance and hatred, is crucial to resolving the larger problem. In broad terms, intentional prejudice demands a response of anger; unintentional prejudice demands a response of education. That’s frustrating sometimes, but I genuinely believe it’s the shortest pathway to change.

    As a lesbian, I’ve gotten all kinds of “dumb” questions that might better have been looked up on Wikipedia. As a vegan, I’ve probably gotten even more. And my radar is really, really good at distinguishing the legitimately curious from the unnecessarily threatened from the downright cruel. If someone’s actually interested in knowing what vegans eat or why I have a problem with dairy products, I’m more than happy to engage if time permits. If s/he just wants to make jokes about bean sprouts, reassert his/her carnivorousness, and call me a wacko in so many words, a slapdown is in order.

    For me, the point is this: Even if I’m annoyed or wearied by the thousandth iteration of “what do lesbians do?” or “don’t you miss steak?”, I remind myself that I might just be the only lesbian/vegan the questioner has ever met, and I might just hold in my hands the opportunity to shape his/her perception of gays and herbivores positively or negatively, depending on the content and the delivery of my response. Should that be my responsibility? No. But am I going to waste that chance? No way.

28. Should that be my responsibility? No. But am I going to waste that chance? No way.

    This is largely my point. It’s not my frickin responsibility as a person to spend my time educating everyone on the ways I am different from them. Yes, working to dispell ignorance is a positive thing, a thing I take the time to do whenever possible, through my livejournal, by correcting people at times when they say things which are silly, by speaking up in my classes, etc., but it should not be an expectation that I will spend every waking moment doing this (I’m not accusing you, Lizard, of saying it is).

29. Lizard: How about this: You tell, or discover somebody just found out you’re a lesbian. He or she never asks a question, never refers to the subject, never shows the slightest inclination to discuss it.

    Is that a problem? An issue?

30. Well, here’s a new concept. Home training. It’s a combination of manners and common sense. Are you tempted to ask a question? Think is it any of my business? How would this person know this? Am I going into a touchy area? (Ok, a basic level of respect for people not exactly the same as you might be required here) Could I look this up in ten minutes and not insult someone? Do I know this person? How well do I know them? (Never ask a stranger questions about personal stuff) I know it’s hard, but it’s what the rest of us do, and that is why I have never asked a Jew why they don’t believe on Jesus.

31. What ilyka said. This woman was a jackass. To refresh your memory, this is what she first said:

    “i have a question. since you are darker (she grabs my arm to demonstrate that i am darker than her–as if had forgotten that i was black), do you get hotter? i mean, you know how if you wear black, you retain more heat.”

    And then, while Nubian’s jaw is on the ground, she follows up with this:

    “well, it would make sense that you do. since, black clothing makes people hotter, it would make sense that black skin makes you hotter. i mean, don’t you think it makes sense?”

    Now, we’ve got folks coming out of the woodwork to defend the intent of the white woman, rather than listening to the impact of this rude-as-hell-whether-or-not-you-want-to-admit-it-was-racist statement on a black woman! Typical. Why is nubian expected to be so damn “understanding” of a person who clearly does not expect to have to extend her the same courtesy? Yes, dammit, the statement was racist. It was pandering to bullshit myths about “difference” between the “races”. In other words reinforcing and/or policing whiteness as the norm (when in fact, “whiteness” is not the statistical norm).

    Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar? Yeah, right. Well, all the time, skin color is just skin color—but it sure doesn’t play out that way in real life, does it?

    And c’mon, I don’t care how few black folks you grew up around—if you’ve lived long enough to make it to adulthood, and then to visit the city of Chicago, a midwestern city known to have sweltering, humid summers, and you’ve walked down those streets without seeing multitudes of black folks keeling over from the heat—I think you could figure this shit out on your own without having to reify bullshit myths. Damn.

    As a side note, I always get a kick out of non-midwesterners who try to bleach out the midwest. If you mention Chicago, or St. Louis, well, “that’s not really the midwest.” So, nubian mentions Champaign-Urbana, and is told, “well, that’s home to one of the top colleges, so isn’t really representative of the midwest.” I suppose I could offer up the following non-metropolis, non-big 10 cities that have a significant African-American population like Springfield, Decatur, Peoria, Alton, Centralia, Belleville, Jacksonville, Danville, Freeport, Marion, Cairo, Rockford, Joliet, Bloomington/Normal, Kankakee, Aurora, Vandalia, Murphysboro, Tamms, Edwardsville, Rantoul, Galesburg, Carbondale and Rock Island (some of which I lived in; most of which I’ve worked in—and that’s leaving out East St. Louis or anything in Cook County), but then someone would be sure to pop up and say “yeah, but Illinois is east of the Mississippi River, so it’s not really part of the midwest.” Basically just whittling down the definition so it fits the stereotype, y’know.

    Whattaya wanna bet that before the summer is out, some other ignoramus tells nubian something to the effect of “black people can tolerate the heat better, can’t you? I mean, from growing up around the equator/in the jungle/on the plantation/etc. ? I sure wish I had the stamina to ride my bike in the summer, but my people just weren’t made for the heat……”

32. My father taught me–emphatically–to never, ever, not even a little bit, remark, question or even overtly notice anything about anybody’s physical appearance or any other characteristic. I would do well to notice, but not to let on that anything ever occurred to me.

    While I would wonder about the issue of dark skin and absorption of radiant heat, I would never ask. But, if anybody were to ask me about, say, having body hair (I’m not from any Asian group), I would not find that insulting. It could be annoying, if I were involved in something else.

    The point is that annoying people are…..annoying. Not evil, not racist, not anti-other. Just annoying. You let them make the encounter annoying at your cost.

    But, hey. If it feels good, do it.

33. To be fair, some fairly prominent African-Americans make the very same argument. Doesn’t make it any less ignorant, but if we’re insisting on not whittling stuff down, we oughta acknowledge that this particular bit of folk wisdom has purchase in the African-American community too.

    Also, I know I’m being an ass about this, but we could have a discussion that addresses the broader issue here…or we could keep rehearsing the argument already had in both original threads. You know, the one which insists on connecting this important issue to a single bad example of it condemned thrice over already. Or if it makes you feel better to condemn unconstructively, feel free to continue to pile it on. “Why discuss something productive when venting’s so much more fun?” he asks, pretending not to vent while doing so.

34. Just a white girl talking, but IMO these sort of conversations tend to get derailed by the very fact that most white people tend to define racism slightly differently than people of color do. That is, many white people think and have been taught to think that racism is only individual, intentional, and overtly hostile acts motivated by hatred, whereas POC tend to see racism as smaller manifestations of a larger system of inequality.

    Even though I think the tourist metaphor is a bad example because it fails to capture the loadedness of asking a black woman to explain her skin pigment to you, I think it can also be useful in another way.

    There is a reason that locals in tourist cities are often less friendly to tourists. I would say most people are willing to help out the odd person who needs help, just as a common courtesy. However, if you live somewhere where you have a constant stream of tourists coming in for a week, a day, an afternoon, what is a new experience for every single one of the vistors is simply an repeated pattern for the local. If you pay attention, certain patterns emerge. There are plenty of people who don’t really need your help, but ask you because, hey, you’re there, a local, and they aren’t willing to take the extra steps to find the street sign on the nearest corner and compare it to the map in their backpack. You become less willing to help the person who has a map, but hasn’t even bothered to look at it, or the person who could have bought a map at the train station. For instance. You’re still willing to help out the critcal cases, but you can’t be a street corner resource for every one-day tourist. You’re also more willing to help out the people who are going to stick around a be a part of your community for instance. You might even be willing to give your new neighbor a sight-seeing tour.

    I’ll take it further. White people are like tourists. Most haven’t bothered to look at maps – and there are plenty of good resources out there. But there’s always another white traveler who needs to know right now about one detail of your blackness, asian-ness, indian-ness while at a stop on their travels. They’ll treat you rudely, and then the rest of the year they’ll go back to the white privileged land that they came from and not think too much about you or your community again. And furthermore, when you try to tell them about your experiences with racism, they’ll argue with you and tell you that you really don’t know this city at all, that really the streets aren’t laid out that way. When you throw your hands up in frustration, they’ll get mad at you because they expected you to engage fully, rehashing arguments about a sensitive topic for as long as it takes for you to feel like you understand.

35. People need some common sense. It’s not polite, nice or going to clue someone in on a person of color’s experience.

    It’s hard to compare. I guess it would be like walking up to someone overweight and pinching their cheeks and asking how they manage to get around with “all that weight.”

    It’s rude. In the above example,it can be hurtful.

36. I have a few problems with the notion that black folks have a special “responsibility” to educate white folks. Historically, we have always been “responsible” for managing whites’ perceptions of us, simply as a matter of survival. Given the steep price that we have historically paid whenever we have failed to assiduously track what white people know, any special pleading on the part of whites that we do still more to steward their coming-into-knowledge about race is likely to get only a snort from me.

    What should we make of such pleading in light of the flack we catch for Black History Month? It’s as if certain members of the dominant group only wish to learn about the Other when it is convenient for them–i.e. the kind of “drive-by” teaching moment that happened to Nubian. I can’t help but wonder if some of the very same people who aver that teaching black history in a classroom is “too narrow” (read: not an essential enough subject to merit a month’s worth of structured pedagogical focus) are also among those who argue for the right to pester black people with their inane questions when they feel like it.

    It also seems that some are working from the assumption that “blackness,” whatever else can be said about it, is such a small, easily-encapsulated thing that any black person should be able to speak about it off-the-cuff. But is it really? I for one am not always prepared to hold forth on “black issues,” nor do I see any reason why our community should authorize just anyone to speak to those issues. As with any dauntingly complex subject, the right words have to be found, evidence marshalled, frameworks that manage somehow to be both subtle and robust have to be built. My own scholar’s sense of what is needed to justly speak to the issue may not match the desire of my white interlocutor for a quick soundbite. I wonder how many dominant group members truly understand what a tricky rhetorical bob-and-weave speaking as the Other is?

    And make no mistake, certain norms of speaker credibility have grown up within the black community. These norms loom large for me, and explain some of my reluctance to give hasty answers to the often-loaded questions asked by whites. It’s worth noting as well that one of the main things black people have been denied in this country is a tried-and-true language for giving voice to our experience that also staves off white skepticism. Chastising Nubian for not having such a language at the ready (and in response to the most childish question imaginable from a white person; seriously, do black people need to be prepared for such farcical encounters as a matter of upbringing, or do whites have a role to play in making them less common?), shows an obtuseness about what we’ve actually to deal with in this country that’s pretty breath-taking.

    And am I the only one who sees something more menacing in the demand that we always be ready to teach whites? It’s as if we’re being told, “Unless you tell me what I want to know right this instant, you are hereby giving me permission to think whatever I want about you. You have this one chance to disabuse me of my prejudices, otherwise I will cling to them in perpetuity.” And how do we not find privilege in this?

37. No, Imani, you’re not the only one. I ran into the other guy a couple of years ago.

    It needs to be remembered that whites are getting educated, or were, on such things as…ta-da…physical anthropology. Evolutionary responses to specific environmental conditions. Ever wonder why the folks from or whose ancestors were from Africa do lots better distance running if the origin was East Africa rather than the West Coast or Congo Basin? Etc.

    Some even know a bit of physics. The question might well arise.

    It is unnecessary to educate whites, if you don’t want to. Let them think what they want. I expect that most of what you mean by teaching whites is not available in books. The physics of radiant heat on skin is small beer, compared to other issues. Other issues, if available in books, are probably available as autobios, and not necessarily generally applicable.
    James Baldwin’s life–even if we consider he didn’t punch up some of it in order to sell books–doesn’t have much to do with the lives of a black family I know who are Pentecostals and sent their kids to Catholic school and have boring, ordinary jobs. If I read Baldwin, what do I know in general?

    So, teach, don’t teach. Let the white folks think what they will.

38. Piny:

    No, we are viewing questions in the context of race/gender/religion as questions in the context of race/gender/religion, because that’s what they are.

    Why is the question about race? Seems to me you’re assuming your conclusion here.

    Is it the case that every interaction between a black person and a white person should be viewed through the lens of race? Would you have perceived the question as racist if it’d been asked of a dark-skinned Sri Lankan? Of a dude from Zimbabwe?

    As for whether or not Nubian would know the answer to the question–which is a tangent, IMO, but one I want to address because it’s getting on my nerves–yes, she very well might’ve. I’m fat, I’ve always been fat, and if someone came up and asked me whether or not my fat made me hotter, ’cause people are gotter when they’re wearing down jackets, for example, I’d’ve been able to answer an emphatic yes. Even though I don’t know what it’s like to be anyone other than me. I know I’m hotter than others ’cause I get flushed, ’cause I wear fewer and lighter-weight clothes than others, ’cause I prefer that the ambient temperature be cooler than others prefer, ’cause I sweat more and fan myself, and also ’cause I tolerate cold weather way better than thin people. I can’t answer about other fat people, but it makes sense that they might feel the same way. Why wouldn’t Nubian be able to apply the same reasoning to herself?

39. Sarah Brodwall –

    As another fat person, if someone asked me the question you described, I would say “I have no fucking clue” because I would legitimately have no fucking clue if I was warmer as a fat person then a skinny person would be. I mean, I could take a shot in the dark and guess yes (fat = more insulation?) but I really don’t know. Kudos to you if you know the answer, but I sure as hell don’t.

    If someone came up to me and asked that, my response would be exactly the same as the one nubian gave… I would stammer out something stupid as to not blow up at the person for asking a question that is 1) unanswerable and 2) based in a bizarrely offensive sense of privledge. I’m not the fat ambassador, and in this case, I would not feel remotely comfortable answering the question you exampled, for myself or any other fat people.

    I mean, if you feel comfortable dealing with this kind of stuff personally, fine, good, great. But I sure as hell don’t. And the assumption that I as a fat person (or every other fat person), should automatically be open to asnwering uncomfortable and/or questions that I can’t possibly know the answer to just because I am visably fat is irritating and dumb.

40. A lot of people have presented a lot of evidence that the various people involved here were rude and inconsiderate, and I don’t dispute that (and I must admit that I don’t feel as sympathetic to the questioners as I did at the beginning of this discussion). But I just don’t see it as rising to the level of racism. Were I to be bombarded with ill-informed questions about Christianity as piny suggests, certainly I would be irritated, and I might say “I’m not a spokesperson for Christianity, go ask a priest,” and I might later comment to my friends about what a jerk I ran into. But I wouldn’t think it was an example of some sort of anti-Christian prejudice. piny is, it seems to me, also putting up strawmen. “what the hell Passover is or what a Star of David means.” is equivalent to “don’t you eat special foods on those days,” (which I wouldn’t find particularly offensive) but is hardly equivalent to “Why do you hate Jews? Why do you hate gays?” (which I might). Maybe that subtext was there, but piny believes that subtext was there based solely on the person’s religion. And while piny is obviously right in saying that these encounters are about race/religion/gender, and I was incorrect to say they weren’t, that doesn’t automatically make them about bigotry.

    If we want a society that is blind to race, gender, and creed, we have to try to implement that blindness in our daily lives. And certainly it’s easy for me, a white male, to ask that of a black woman, but it’s what I think regardless, and it seems to me that the responses to these (again, admittedly rude) people were not themselves free of prejudice. I wonder (and I do mean wonder, I don’t claim to know the answer) what Nubian’s reaction would have been had it been a lighter-skinned black person asking her the same questions, or Esme had she been interrogated by her religion by, say, a more/less Orthodox Jew, curious about the differences between their different practices.

    And some of you probably think that what I’m saying is equivalent to “Why won’t you minorities just shut up and be oppressed already? You’re making me uncomfortable!” And you know what? There’s probably some truth in that, I won’t deny it. But the problem is, that discomfort I am feeling, justified or not, has real consequences. After all, if you want to change society, and if society is dominated by white men, then the reactions of white men are more than a little relevant. And the unfortunate reality is, every accusation of racism sets back the cause of racial equality by some small amount, because when an accusation of racism is made, then there are three possible reactions by the accused:

    Overt racist: “You’re darn right, that’s racist, and it’s no better than they deserve!”

    Covert racist: “That’s not racist! In fact, I’m going to do that even more, just to show those darn black people that I won’t be pushed around by their ‘political correctness’!”

    Non-racist (or somebody consciously striving to be non-racist): “Hmm, that’s a good point. I need to be extra careful around black people to avoid that racist behavior.”

    Obviously in the first cases, nothing much has been accomplished. But note that even in the best case, some harm has been done. The non-racist has associated black people with discomfort, and is not going to want to be around them because he has to watch himself in a way that he doesn’t around white people. And human nature being what it is, if he associates black people with discomfort, then eventually he will, at least subconsciously, blame them for that discomfort. Certainly it would be nice if all this wasn’t the case, but that’s how people are. This discussion right here is one I would be too uncomfortable to have with a black person offline (I’m barely comfortable enough to have it anonymously), and so that means I would never hear the black perspective on it.

    Now obviously, there have been and continue to be a huge number of cases where the (fairly small) cost of making claims of discrimination is far, far outweighed by the benefit of eliminating or reducing that discrimination. And moreover, in cases where racism is undeniable, the “covert racist” response above is undermined, so in those cases there’s no question that the injustice should be denounced loudly and clearly, for as long as it takes to eliminate it. And maybe I’m wrong, and this is in fact one of those cases. But I think that, in this case, the cause of equality might have been better served by treating this woman as what she undeniably was, a jerk, and choosing to look past the color of her skin.

41. Well, but… about this:

    I’m fat, I’ve always been fat, and if someone came up and asked me whether or not my fat made me hotter,

    It seems to me that you would be able to answer the question regarding whether being fat made you hot, but if you’ve never been thin, how would you know that it made you hotter? And wouldn’t that depend a bit on physical conditioning and other factors as well? Some fat but fit people, in my experience, barely work up a sweat at all, and are no more likely than anyone else that is fit to wear more or less clothing in hot or cold weather. Some people, regardless of their size and color – it’s like sitting next to little (or big) space heaters, in all weather.

    Why wouldn’t Nubian be able to apply the same reasoning to herself?

    Well, again… how would Nubian not only be able to answer the question of being hotter than the white person she’s never been, (leaving aside being compared to a piece of cloth and all that) but also answer it for the various combinations of darkskinned people, all at levels of fitness and internal body temperatures?

    And of course the question was about race… otherwise, why not just ask a tanned white person?

42. And am I the only one who sees something more menacing in the demand that we always be ready to teach whites? It’s as if we’re being told, “Unless you tell me what I want to know right this instant, you are hereby giving me permission to think whatever I want about you. You have this one chance to disabuse me of my prejudices, otherwise I will cling to them in perpetuity.” And how do we not find privilege in this?

    No, this was my thought as well, reading the conversations on the various blogs. Thanks for putting it so well.

43. Lizard: How about this: You tell, or discover somebody just found out you’re a lesbian. He or she never asks a question, never refers to the subject, never shows the slightest inclination to discuss it.

    Is that a problem? An issue?

    That would depend. By “never refers to the subject,” do you mean, “never asks questions about what lesbians do in bed,” or, “ignores Lizard’s female partner when writing invitations to a summer barbecue.”

    I’ve got a question for you, Richard. What are you getting at?

44. Lizard: How about this: You tell, or discover somebody just found out you’re a lesbian. He or she never asks a question, never refers to the subject, never shows the slightest inclination to discuss it.

    Is that a problem? An issue?

    Ooh, piny, glad you quoted this, because I completely missed Richard’s original post.

    And my reaction to it is pretty much the same: 1) Depends on what, specifically, is not being said; and 2) Why do you ask?

    To elaborate on #1: If the silence, in combination with what I already know about the person’s worldview, leads me to believe that my lesbianism would be a taboo topic and that I am being drawn into a tacit agreement Never To Speak Of It Again, that’s a problem. If the silence is the result of a refreshing lack of “heteronormativity,” then….great.

45. Why is the question about race?

    How could it not be? “White” people get darker skin when exposed to sunlight, just like “black” people do. Yet, “white” people aren’t generally asked about this. Why not? Wouldn’t it have made more sense for this woman to ask herself if she feels warmer with her own darker skin, if indeed she was genuinely curious?

    Why are “black” people held up as Exhibit A? Because of racial myths that are created and perpetuated to uphold “whiteness” as the pole position.

    And make no mistake about it, these myths are taught. Sometimes, formally. As in the case of my 10th grade health class, when the class was taught by the teacher that “all Caucasian babies are born with blue eyes”, then treated to a dissertation by the teacher on how, if a brown-eyed baby is born to a white couple, “you knooooowwwww that soooommme-things wroooonggg….” Yep. He said that. Doesn’t matter that the information is false; the correctness of the information isn’t what counts. What counts is the myth, and its purpose. Making “black” the “Other” and making “white” folks nervous about the status of their whiteness. These are created categories.

46. Would you have perceived the question as racist if it’d been asked of a dark-skinned Sri Lankan? Of a dude from Zimbabwe?

    no idiot. a “dude” from zimbabwe would never ask me if i got “hotter.” why would he? he would be black as well.

47. no idiot. a “dude” from zimbabwe would never ask me if i got “hotter.” why would he? he would be black as well.

    Maybe he meant, if the question had been directed to someone from Zimbabwe instead of to you? But I have no idea why that would change the dynamic.

48. I remember learning that dark skin was favorably selected because it protected folate from UV radiation–and that darker skin therefore had nothing to do with being hotter and everything to do with generations of exposure to intense sunlight in equatorial regions. I’m not sure this is right, as I’m reaching back to high school biology to pull this out. The reason I mention it is that there’s a notion circling around that the question asked is of legitimate scientific interest, when in fact its based on folk wisdom and false analogy. Not that much of contemporary life isn’t, mind you, only that this particular bit has been tied to ideas of race and genetic expression by both white and black people. (See the above quotation by Dusty Baker, as well as articles responding to his “black and latino players can take the summer heat better than their white teammates” statement.)

    nubian:

    no idiot. a “dude” from zimbabwe would never ask me if i got “hotter.” why would he? he would be black as well.

    That response is a tad disingenuous, isn’t it? As someone who reads a lot of late 19th Century literature, I’m constantly being reminded–in a eugenic sort of way–that there’s no monolithic idea of “blackness” at play in American society. It’s always been treated as a graded matter, in which “whiter” African-Americans were considered better than their “blacker” counterparts. I only mention this because your response implies that no light-skinned African-American would ask a darker-skinned African-American the same idiotic question–I mean, no one race has a monopoly on idiocy, as the Baker example above attests. (IIRC, the late Ralph Wiley wanted to ask him whether he’d choose to employ a “dark/light platoon” in which the Mexican-American would play when it’s partly cloudy and an African-American when the sun was full-bore.)

49. I only mention this because your response implies that no light-skinned African-American would ask a darker-skinned African-American the same idiotic question–I mean, no one race has a monopoly on idiocy, as the Baker example above attests. (IIRC, the late Ralph Wiley wanted to ask him whether he’d choose to employ a “dark/light platoon” in which the Mexican-American would play when it’s partly cloudy and an African-American when the sun was full-bore.)

    Yes, but nubian isn’t the one arguing that this is about deracialized idiocy. You are. No one sexual orientation has a monopoly on ignorance, either, but I would give a dyke more credit than a straight man when it comes to asking questions like, “So, which one of you does the man’s things?”

50. My sister was telling me that when she lived in Hawaii and was experiencing being a racial minority for the first time in her life, she’d get questions like these. One guy asked her if she “saw differently” with blue eyes, and of course she had to ask him, “Differently from what?”

    She was able to shrug it off because the guy seemed curious rather than menacing, but then again, she didn’t have a lifetime of being viewed as THE representative of all white people to make her resent another damn question like that.

51. OhioBoy has expressed in a pretty eloquent fashion the views I tend to on this this sort of thing.

    Let me first say that as a white guy, I do not see it as my place to tell a person of color how he or she is supposed to react to a given question, so I hope that my remarks here don’t come across that way. Some people are rude, and some people do ask rhetorical questions that are not intended to elicit information at all, but rather to make a statement.

    That said, the teacher in me tends to believe that there are no (or at least very few) stupid questions. I certainly apply this philosophy in the classroom, because to shame someone in that setting will not encourage that person to look it up on Google. Instead, he or she will probably harbor resentment for being made to feel that way. I may have demonstrated my superior knowledge, but the purpose for my being there (teaching someone) will have been undermined.

    Now, you could argue that the classroom setting is a different context, and hence different rules apply. That’s a completely valid point. I would say, though, that one way people learn is by contact with other people, and that often entails interactions that are awkward and uncomfortable. Talking to and asking questions of someone different than oneself is a way of taking responsibility for your own education and enlightment. There are, of course, good and bad ways to do this.

    Again, I’m not trying to tell anyone how to react to a given situation or to say that a given group has to educate anyone. I am saying, though, that a seemingly awkward or rude moment can be an opportunity to create something positive.

52. Hmm…I went back and re-read the entry, and it seems that what I’ve argued has already been said and dealt with on other threads. Just sum up what I’ve said as my philosophy on these sort of situations. That and 2 bucks will get you a cup of coffee. 🙂

53. La Lubu:

    Why is the question about race?

    How could it not be? “White” people get darker skin when exposed to sunlight, just like “black” people do. Yet, “white” people aren’t generally asked about this. Why not? Wouldn’t it have made more sense for this woman to ask herself if she feels warmer with her own darker skin, if indeed she was genuinely curious?

    You’re right, it would make more sense for the WC to ask herself if she felt hotter when her skin was more tanned. A lot more sense. But not everone is sensible. 🙂 I guess she never thought of that.

    Nubian:

    no idiot. a “dude” from zimbabwe would never ask me if i got “hotter.” why would he? he would be black as well.

    Please read my comment again, as you have misumderstood what I said. I talked about a white person asking a Zimbabwean (in Zimbabwe, to clarify) about feeling hotter, not a Zimbabwean asking you. And anyway, why do you assume (as I did, but aren’t you supposed to know better?) that a Zimbabwean would necessarily be black? I guess there’s not anywhere in the world where white people haven’t oppressed darker people, though, right? So a lighter person can never ask this question of a darker person without race dynamics being involved.

    And if you’re so damn concerned about people being rude to each other, hurling insults might not be the best way to go.

    And as to the fat/heat analogy, if you’ll reread my post, I spoke about whether or not I feel hotter. I do (despite the fact that I am fit), and most of the fat people I come into contact with do. I wouldn’t answer “all fat people feel hotter”, although I might answer “Probably. I do, and most of the fat people I know do”.

    Much of the reason this debate is charged is due to a lack of agreement on what the term “you” means. Does it mean Nubian, black people, or dark-skinned people?

54. Oops. that first blockquote was supposed to look like this:

    Why is the question about race?

    How could it not be? “White” people get darker skin when exposed to sunlight, just like “black” people do. Yet, “white” people aren’t generally asked about this. Why not? Wouldn’t it have made more sense for this woman to ask herself if she feels warmer with her own darker skin, if indeed she was genuinely curious?

55. No nested blockquotes? Anyway,

    “How could it not be? “White” people get darker skin when exposed to sunlight, just like “black” people do. Yet, “white” people aren’t generally asked about this. Why not? Wouldn’t it have made more sense for this woman to ask herself if she feels warmer with her own darker skin, if indeed she was genuinely curious?”

    was La Lubu’s answer to my question

    “Why is the question about race?”.

56. Please read my comment again, as you have misumderstood what I said. I talked about a white person asking a Zimbabwean (in Zimbabwe, to clarify) about feeling hotter, not a Zimbabwean asking you. And anyway, why do you assume (as I did, but aren’t you supposed to know better?) that a Zimbabwean would necessarily be black? I guess there’s not anywhere in the world where white people haven’t oppressed darker people, though, right? So a lighter person can never ask this question of a darker person without race dynamics being involved.

    Uh, because the question was, “i have a question. since you are darker (she grabs my arm to demonstrate that i am darker than her–as if had forgotten that i was black), do you get hotter? i mean, you know how if you wear black, you retain more heat.”

    The implication is that the interrogee has noticeably darker skin.

    And yes. That’s true.

57. i am quite aware that there is no monolithic blackness. however, i find it hard to believe that a black person (no matter the shade of their skin) would ask another black person if they get hotter in the sun. no matter how dark or light their skin is, it is not white. and the person who asked me the question asked it in relation to whiteness.

58. and if a fellow black person did ask if i got hotter in the sun, of course, the dynamics would be different because they were black as well.

59. sarah–
    please. in terms of respect, i read your wack posting on your blog about this situation. now, why would i try and be respectful to you, when you so easily denied my experience, twisted it around, and claimed that since i go by the name numbian online, i invite such racist comments. what bizarre world are you living in?

60. And anyway, why do you assume (as I did, but aren’t you supposed to know better?) that a Zimbabwean would necessarily be black?

    Also, Zimbabwe’s population is less than one percent caucasian, so it’s not exactly a left-field assumption. And given that you’re talking about racism and context, why would anyone not assume that you were trying to compare “black person in this country” with “black person in another country?”

61. c’mon. asumptions aside, you were referring to a black person from zimbabwe.

62. Piny, I don’t get what you mean in your post #56. What were you disagreeing with?

    Nubian, you are still misunderstanding me. My analogy was about whether a white person asking you that question has the same implications as a white person asking a Zimbabwean that question. And why would it necessarily be the case that a black African asking you whether or not you got hotter would have a different dynamic than a white American asking you the same question?

    In my post on my blog, did I call you names? Did I say you were stupid? Can you not fucking refrain from ad hominem attacks? Attack my ideas with all the viciousness you like, but attack my ideas, not me as a person.

    I did not deny your experience. No one is denying that you experienced the event as racist. You experienced the event as racist. Period. How the hell can I purport to tell you what you did or did not experience? I’d also like to know what exactly I said that you interpreted as me “twisting around” your experience of the event, because I don’t see it.

    I did not call you “Numbian”. I called you by “Nubian”, which is a reference to your ethnic heritage. I did not say that referring to yourself online by your ethnic heritage invites racism, I said that referring to yourself by your ethnic heritage online invites questions about your ethnic heritage.

    And yeah, I was referring to a black Zimbabwean. But y’all are freely making assumptions that us midwesterners can’t possibly have a lack of experience with a black person because city X has Y% black population. This is a mistaken assumption; some people, people who are likely not to have travelled much, live in places where there are extremely few black people, and may therefore lack experience with them. Therefore I want to clarify that although Zimbabwe has only 1% caucasion population, I might very well have been talking about someone who was a member of that 1%. Y’all’re calling me on generalizations–I’m going to do my damndest to avoid making them in this thread.

63. I would also like to mention that there’s a difference between respect and politeness. I hardly respect anyone, but I am polite to almost everyone. At least IRL. 😉

64. I guess there’s not anywhere in the world where white people haven’t oppressed darker people, though, right? So a lighter person can never ask this question of a darker person without race dynamics being involved.

    This. Yes, this is true. The question would be racist in Zimbabwe, too.

    And yeah, I was referring to a black Zimbabwean.

    Then don’t take trivial rhetorical shots about nubian’s racist assumptions, ‘kay?

65. Piny: 🙂 Thank you for clarifying that, and you’re right. I am bad.

66. numbian was a typo.

    i mean to type nubian, of course. numbian wouldn’t even make sense.

    ad hominem attacks–i think you need to re-read your blog entry, sarah.

67. btw, you don’t need to use the words stupid, to imply that someone is.

68. piny:

    Yes, but nubian isn’t the one arguing that this is about deracialized idiocy. You are. No one sexual orientation has a monopoly on ignorance, either, but I would give a dyke more credit than a straight man when it comes to asking questions like, “So, which one of you does the man’s things?”

    I ‘m not arguing that this is a deracialized idiocy. As I noted (with, I now notice, a uniquely poor choice of words) earlier: “I think we can all agree that the behvaior in the particular instance Nubian documented falls beyond the pale. ” I think you’re confusing me with another commenter.

    Nubian:

    i am quite aware that there is no monolithic blackness. however, i find it hard to believe that a black person (no matter the shade of their skin) would ask another black person if they get hotter in the sun. no matter how dark or light their skin is, it is not white.

    I know it’s difficult to believe, but that’s why I included a link to a black person making public statements about the folk-wisdom. I think Wiley’s take-down of Baker concords with your point, however, since he takes Baker’s argument to an absurd extreme. Still, I think the existence of the folk-wisdom in black community as well as white indicates that it’s at least possible for such an interaction to occur today. Then again, there’s really no point in arguing over what supremely ignorant whites and blacks say about the effect of skin color on heat absorption, since we can pretty much agree that supremely ignorant people often say supremely ignorant things.

    and the person who asked me the question asked it in relation to whiteness.

    I caught that, and it’s a damn fine distinction, one which some of the other commenters should try to understand.

    and if a fellow black person did ask if i got hotter in the sun, of course, the dynamics would be different because they were black as well.

    Point taken. And you would react differently to their display of ignorance than you would the other woman, obviously. But I’m curious as to how you would react to it. I tend to be more upset when people who ought to know better provide evidence that they really, really don’t. (I covered this in an earlier post Jill linked to last week.)

    I suppose I’m asking piny this too–vis-a-vis her example that she’d “give a dyke more credit than a straight man when it comes to asking [disrespectful] questions”–because I’m always inclined to be more upset when I find ignorance where it shouldn’t be than when it crops up in the places I expect it.

69. I ‘m not arguing that this is a deracialized idiocy. As I noted (with, I now notice, a uniquely poor choice of words) earlier: “I think we can all agree that the behvaior in the particular instance Nubian documented falls beyond the pale. ” I think you’re confusing me with another commenter.

    You’re right. Sorry about the mistake.

    I suppose I’m asking piny this too–vis-a-vis her example that she’d “give a dyke more credit than a straight man when it comes to asking [disrespectful] questions”–because I’m always inclined to be more upset when I find ignorance where it shouldn’t be than when it crops up in the places I expect it.

    Just so you know, I’m not a woman. I’m not saying that I’d be more forgiving of a dyke who asked a question like that, just that I think she’d be less likely to do so.

70. My apologies.

    I’m not saying that I’d be more forgiving of a dyke who asked a question like that, just that I think she’d be less likely to do so.

    I think we’re making the same point here: yes, she’d be less likely to do so, which is why it’d be so damned disappointing if she did. Yet for some reason, lately I’ve seen more and more leftists do things like call homophobes “faggots” and behave in ways which, frankly, are antithetical to their core values. This, however, is a tangent–and one covered in the earlier thread no less. (But I’d still be interested to know how you and Nubian would react.)

71. I think we’re making the same point here: yes, she’d be less likely to do so, which is why it’d be so damned disappointing if she did. Yet for some reason, lately I’ve seen more and more leftists do things like call homophobes “faggots” and behave in ways which, frankly, are antithetical to their core values. This, however, is a tangent–and one covered in the earlier thread no less. (But I’d still be interested to know how you and Nubian would react.)

    Speaking just for myself here: I think I might be more likely to call that person out. I would probably be in a situation where I wouldn’t be the only one in the room, and where my right to exist in whatever space wouldn’t be as contested. I would also be able to reference their likely experience with prejudice as a handy comparison.

72. Nubian: I actually re-read my post before I responded to yours, and I honestly didn’t see where I’d implied that you are stupid or made any ad-hominem attacks against you. Can you point this out to me?

73. Hey Piny, when they ask “how do you go to the bathroom?”, do you ever say “I walk”?

74. Hey Piny, when they ask “how do you go to the bathroom?”, do you ever say “I walk”?

    Not bad! Not bad at all. I’ll have to remember that one.

    Most of the time, in real life, I just answer the questions. Even the ones about my junk. I’m only a badass online.

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