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PUAs and MRAs respond to the Santa Barbara killings

Jill

Well hello again! Yes I am still here, although MIA for the past month or so as I wrapped up my freelance life and started at Cosmopolitan.com full time. And I’m writing a lot over there: On illegal abortion in Brazil, on pro-choice advocates embracing life, on the minimum wage, on the increasing inaccessibility of abortion in the American South, on the kidnapped Nigerian girls. I’m also doing a series of interviews with women who have interesting careers, detailing how they got to where they are. So far I’ve spoken with Jordan Zimmerman, a cheese educator; Anna Holmes, a journalist and the founder of Jezebel; and Sadie Nardini, a yoga instructor who was paralyzed as a child and now runs a massive international wellness empire. The latest: On PUA and MRA responses to the misogynist murders in Santa Barbara. Here is one of those things:

“Until you give men like Rodger a way to have sex, either by encouraging them to learn game, seek out a Thai wife, or engage in legalized prostitution—three things that the American media and cultural elite venomously attack, it’s inevitable for another massacre to occur,” he writes. “Even game itself, as useful as it is on an individual level, is a band-aid fix upon a culture which has stopped rewarding nice guys while encouraging female whoring to benefit only the top 10% of alpha males, all in the name of societal progress … Game may not have led Rodger to find his dream girl and live happily ever after, but it would have given enough results to stop him from killing six innocent individuals and himself. Until you allow and encourage all men to get sex by some means, these massacres will be more commonplace as America’s cultural decline continues.”

Yes they are awful.

45 thoughts on PUAs and MRAs respond to the Santa Barbara killings

  1. I like it better when guys just make fun of each other for being sexually frustrated, and I hate that.

  2. I have a comment in mod in which I used language that I should have remembered is nasty to sex workers. Apologies, and rephrasing here (mods, if this one goes through, no need to approve the other):

    1) Good to see you, Jill. Congrats on the Cosmo job!

    2) So on the one hand, these assholes want legalized sex work (that’s not what makes them assholes, though their reasons for wanting it do, as far as I’m concerned), but on the other, they hate women “whoring” themselves out. Interesting.

    1. on the one hand, these assholes want legalized sex work (that’s not what makes them assholes, though their reasons for wanting it do, as far as I’m concerned), but on the other, they hate women “whoring” themselves out. Interesting.

      It’s clear that there are so many aspects of the MRA/nice guy philosophy that require having simultaneous prejudices. For example, the stereotype that women only fall in love with abusive shitheads aka ‘top 10% of alpha males,’ and love to be walked all over completely conflicts with the stereotype that women take their husbands to the cleaners in divorces. The whole idea that you can make your judgements about the entire population based on personal experience of a small social circle is irrational.

      The thing about the PUA comment Jill quoted is, I’m sure some of us would agree that education could have (perhaps) prevented this. Just not education in ‘game.’ (It sucks that through the medium of typing I can’t properly convey the utter contempt which I say the word game when it is in quotation marks.)

  3. Congrats on the new job!

    PUAS and the MRAs that are most vocal online are just as mad and sad as Elliot, trust me. They aren’t fooling anyone with their silly little game tactics.

  4. I’m getting really sick of these people – it’s their culture that enabled this – maybe they should look at that. UCSB is my alma mater and for this to happen there hits a bit too close to home.

    And for what it’s worth spree-killer dude had any number of ways to have sex with women, they just weren’t the ways and women he wanted in his fantasy world. For the love of god the guy had a US passport, he would have been a path to immigration for god knows how many people in other countries who want to come here, I’m sure if he had not become a vile horrible person along the way at least one of them would have liked him – even if I accept his BS theory he could not find love here in the USA, which I don’t.

    1. uh, your theory for how Rodger could’ve had sex with women sort of has the same ring to it the quote from above does.

      …Rodger a way to have sex, either by encouraging them to learn game, seek out a Thai wife, or engage in legalized prostitution…

      …spree-killer dude had any number of ways to have sex with women, they just weren’t the ways and women he wanted in his fantasy world. For the love of god the guy had a US passport, he would have been a path to immigration for god knows how many people in other countries who want to come here…

      I think I get what you are saying… but I don’t think I like it.

      1. Add the balance below and you will understand I was not advocating an emotionless barter with women overseas (the whole concept of immigration marriages is a bit of financial deal, but it can work if the people genuinely like one another – after all name any marriage where finances/labor/support did not play some part in the equation – including a willingness to support one another in some way):

        I’m sure if he had not become a vile horrible person along the way at least one of them would have liked him<

        What’s wrong with people seeking a relationship or even a casual one? His problem was blaming his failure to attain his fantasy relationship on women instead of realizing his fantasy relationship dreams were horrible/nonexistent (I’m reaching out on a limb here and positing he wanted a nice compliant stepford type relationship and/or he’d be unhappy no matter who he dated because they weren’t [insert trait]-enough

        The whole MRA vibe that prostitutes would have fixed the problem is not true. He’d just be pissed he was paying for sex when the “better people” were able to have emotionally connected relationships.

        1. I feel that you are somewhat missing the point. The way you are talking kind of echoes the statements above that are basically saying “if only we could’ve gotten this poor kid laid… this tragedy could be avoided” Although I get that sentiment, and have made a comment myself somewhere on here about how it “shouldn’t” have been that hard for him to find a girlfriend… we are both wrong headed for going that route. Saying that is kind of like backing him up and justifying that he was only doing what any man would do if they were that hard up for sex. We are also prioritizing his sexual desires over the autonomy of whomever theoretically would be banging him for the good of the nation.

          I won’t even get into the issues with immigration marriages, as I feel like that isn’t even part of the topic here.

          His problem was blaming his failure to attain his fantasy relationship on women instead of realizing his fantasy relationship dreams were horrible/nonexistent

          I think you are close to the mark there. I think we agree on the level that he was a horrible monster… and that this should’ve never ever happened, but I think that you might be a little off on your reasoning, which makes it sound like you feel for him on the level of the no sex angle. I agree with kittehserf below about the sex not making a difference. I wish I never would have mused on the fact that he should’ve been able to find a girl to be with (on the other thread). I feel like it makes me sound too much like the guys quoted above. And it is not even relevant to the point.

    2. Henry, there’s still the little matter of women’s agency, whether we’re talking casual sex, relationships or sex work. Even if Rodger had been a wonderful person instead of a loathesome one, it wouldn’t guarantee him sex without removing the other person’s autonomy, and that’s an absolute no.

      As it was, what difference would it really make if he’d ever had sex? Given how he hated women, I’d say it would have added rape to his crimes, and possibly he’d have ended up a serial rather than a spree killer.

    3. And for what it’s worth spree-killer dude had any number of ways to have sex with women, they just weren’t the ways and women he wanted in his fantasy world.

      Except that if he had gotten what he supposedly wanted, he would have discovered that it didn’t actually make him feel any better. This kind of anger and misery comes from within; the “women not giving me sex” line is just a way to blame something outside oneself for one’s misery, so getting the sex (or whatever) doesn’t touch the anger. At some level, I think he knew that, and that’s why he had to set his requirements so high (perfect-10, blond, approach him with out him having to do anything) that he wouldn’t risk actually getting what he claimed he wanted.

      I’ll let others figure out to what extent that is generally true of PUAs and MRAs, or of the hordes of angry, resentful men in general.

      1. I’m just sort of astonished at the idea that sex would’ve taken care of this. I’m pretty sure my vagina does not contain the cure for assholery. Neither is it a prison nor a psychiatrist nor a magic kingdom of happy. Not that I wouldn’t be thrilled if I had a magic vagina, but as it happens I don’t, and I don’t know anyone who does.
        If vaginas contained the solutions to the ills of the world, I suspect someone would at least have had an inkling of that by now. Either there is a Pasteur of vaginas out there waiting to bring enlightenment to the world, or the whole “he just needed some sex” argument is completely ridiculous. I know which side my vagina and I come down on.

        1. I’m pretty sure my vagina does not contain the cure for assholery.

          Thank you, Ledasmom. You just made my day.

          🙂

        3. … wait wut? It isn’t?

          I WANT A REFUND

          Results from Magic Vagina may vary. Void where prohibited. Call your physician if incidents of assholery last more than four hours. Side effects may include unexpected bleeding.

      2. According to the MRA argument Rodger could not have a relationship because women have allegedly made prostitution, foreign brides, and engaging in “game” (consent violating/borderline pick up practices) improper, I’m saying he could easily have had one.

        The fact he would probably be unhappy with it underscores why their argument is bullshit.

    4. And for what it’s worth spree-killer dude had any number of ways to have sex with women, they just weren’t the ways and women he wanted in his fantasy world.

      I don’t know if that’s true, and I definitely don’t think it’s relevant. I know (straight) men who are older than Rodgers was and have never had a girlfriend or a sexual relationship, even though they would like to. These are men who are good looking but very shy and socially awkward. But because they are not misogynists, they don’t blame womankind for the fact that they don’t have a girlfriend. So who knows. Maybe if Rodgers had been willing to consider women who weren’t tall, beautiful blondes, or if he hadn’t come across to women as seething with rage and hate, he could have found a girlfriend or sexual partner. Or maybe he wouldn’t have. It doesn’t matter either way. What matters is the attitude that men are entitled to women’s affection, and that a man going without affection from a woman he desires is an injustice that needs correction.

      1. Yes to all of this. Even if he really *couldn’t* “get” women, that wouldn’t change a thing.

        It’s often very tempting to tell whiny Nice Guy types that they really could get romance if they put some effort into it. It’s tempting because it’s often true. There are plenty of ugly, socially awkward men who have sexual partners (often, those partners are women who aren’t exemplars of conventional beauty either, and they meet the men because of shared interests).

        But it’s ultimately irrelevant.

  6. I haven’t seen any stigmatized women committing mass murders because they/we believe in entitlement to relationships. Given the precarious safety of women in general, it should be obvious to the MRA set that (most, if not all) women choose relationships with, not Mr Popularity, but men who don’t give off vibes of resentment, hostility, and potential violence.
    Second: when the dude drives a beemer and whines that he’s deprived and entitled, whothehell is going to take him seriously?
    Third, Mommy gave him everything from the titty through at least junior high. Now he wants Pin-Up Mommy and nobody’s volunteering. ‘Taint Mommy’s or any other woman’s fault.
    OTOH, rape culture is definitely losing adherents and fellow travelers. You may have read about the recent N GA gang rape at a graduation party. When the vic showed up at her graduation and walked to the podium, she was given an ovation by students and parents. Not much consolation to her but it indicates community support for survivors is improving.

  7. while encouraging female whoring to benefit only the top 10% of alpha males

    It’s this type of messed up worldview that fed this murderer’s obsession and hatred.

    I find PUA philosophy fascinating in the sense it hold two contradictory views: women are whores, but they are only whores cuz of male actions—women are never autonomous individuals.

  8. First, I’m GLAD you will be lending an intelligent, feminist voice to Cosmopolitan Magazine, Jill. I stopped reading it 30 years ago, UGH. congratulations on the new job, and thanks for improving it!

  9. Let’s be clear, PUA’s are at best questionable and generally pretty darn scummy. MRAs raise a couple of reasonable points (which 99% of feminists would agree with) but those points are almost always buried in the sea of woman-hating that invariably arises in any MRA-space.

    But looking beyond all that, (and in the case of this particular PUA, looking past all the deeply offensive things he’s just implied about women’s agency) he’s also flat wrong. Having read his entire 141 page manifesto, I state with some conviction that ‘getting game’ would not have stopped Elliot Rodgers from killing people. Much has been made of Elliot’s raging misogyny, and it is absolutely undeniable, but it was only one facet of thoroughly broken mind.

    Anyone who writes something like this:

    I am Elliot Rodger… Magnificent, glorious, supreme, eminent… Divine! I am the closest thing there is to a living god.

    is not going to have a happy ending. Even if you magically transported Elliot to his ideal world without women, he would still have snapped, because he couldn’t stand the thought of anyone having anything that he didn’t have more of. In fact, for all of his moaning about it, it’s not even clear that sex was what he really wanted. He wanted validation. He didn’t view women as people, he viewed them as status objects. On multiple occasions he rants about how insulting it is to have to go in front of other men (particularly his father) without a ‘beautiful’ girlfriend by his side, because other men will look down on him. When he sees happy couples and is filled with rage, he never talks about wanting to make a connection with a woman, or having a woman understand him – instead he talks about how lucky the man must feel to have her by his side. A woman was just an accessory to Elliot. One he desperately wanted, of course, but in the end, a woman would not have brought him joy any more than his BMW or fancy clothes did, because someone else would always have more.

  10. @Jill;

    Big congrats on your new job and I wish you continued success in your chosen field of journalism.

  11. Until you allow and encourage all men to get sex by some means, these massacres will be more commonplace as America’s cultural decline continues.”

    Here are the means. I more than allow and encourage lonely men to use them.

    2. But seriously, can you imagine if people in this country deprived of actual necessities did this? It would happen every single day. Do these assholes think sex is more important than food or health care?

      1. Yeah, this is where I’m at right now. All of this talk is reminding me strongly of this time a few years ago when I encountered a Nice Guy ™ who insisted that (1) it was unfair to call him a Nice Guy when he was just disappointed in not getting to have romance in his life, but also (2) that feminists who thought that no one was entitled to romance or sex were ‘libertarian.’

        Because pussy is like wealth and the means of production, you see. It has to be evenly distributed, or something.

        And it is such spoiled bratty crap. It’s theoretically abominable because it equates people with things, but even beyond that, it’s so frivolous. As you say, people don’t go on spree killings when they lack actual necessities. I just came from an otherwise great comment thread on Lawyers, Guns and Money where a couple of individuals (not the majority) are insisting that it’s some GREAT HARDSHIP to not have sex and that people are CRUEL for telling the “involuntarily celibate” to, you know, get on with their lives. Where are they getting this idea? And how spoiled do you have to be to believe it? Rape victims don’t go on killing sprees, for the most part. People who lose their loved ones don’t. Starving people don’t. People without housing or medical care don’t.

        But somehow, a man who doesn’t get romance does, and we’re supposed to feel bad for him?

        1. But somehow, a man who doesn’t get romance does, and we’re supposed to feel bad for him?

          I feel bad for someone who has their heart broken and is incredibly lonely due to not having a partner. It can be a terrible blow for a person of any gender.
          I don’t feel bad for a person who uses that to craft a worldview that is essentially misogynist and racist. So Rodger lost my sympathy long before the shootings.

          Additionally, as yet, I fail to see any evidence of him being actually nice in any way. He seemed like a spoiled and entitled shithead who never did a nice thing for a woman in his life.

      2. Well, if it’s anyone’s food or healthcare except theirs, then probably. Certainly women’s food and healthcare don’t matter. Women’s lives don’t matter.

      3. Yeah they pretty much do believe that and they internalize their own personal failings into anger at women and so called “alpha-males” (i.e. those not acting like hateful douches and actually having normal relationships). Until a few days ago I lol’ed whenever I saw the term alpha used by these guys, cause the days I feel like an alpha are quite few and far between. Spend some time lurking around a few hate sites and you’ll see the same mentality across the board whenever one of them does not get something they define as success – it’s never ever their own fault.

        Oh and Fat Steve, thanks for the picture, loved it.

  12. I am Elliot Rodger… Magnificent, glorious, supreme, eminent… Divine! I am the closest thing there is to a living god.

    Has anyone else here read Perfume, by Patrick Suskind? I hope I’m not the only person reminded of Grenouille the serial murderer of young virgins when I read Rodgers’ opinions of himself.

    1. Yeah, I can see that, except of course Grenouille really was exceptional for his super-human sense of smell.

        1. kittehserf, I’m leaving a comment about the book over in #spillover, because I just realized how blindingly inappropriate it is for me to talk about how much I like this particular book is in this particular thread!

  13. Hopefully this incident will highlight the truly rotten and oppressive characters of PUAs and MRAs, even though not every one of them is like Rodger. But I doubt it, because disablist assholes keep trying to derail the conversation to make it about mental health for no reason. Disablism is an effective tool of obscurantism that serves heteropatriarchy, white supremacy, etc. I really hope it fucking dies soon.

    1. Hopefully this incident will highlight the truly rotten and oppressive characters of PUAs and MRAs, even though not every one of them is like Rodger. But I doubt it, because disablist assholes keep trying to derail the conversation to make it about mental health for no reason. Disablism is an effective tool of obscurantism that serves heteropatriarchy, white supremacy, etc. I really hope it fucking dies soon.

      In a way I kind of don’t. I don’t want the narrative to become that PUA/MRA ideology is responsible for this guy’s views and therefore let every other misogynist off of the hook. All of the other examples that have been discussed lately; to my knowledge none of those murderers were immersed in PUA/MRA culture. The foundations for misogyny are laid by our culture when men are children, long before PUA/MRA enter the picture. It’s those foundations I hope will get the light shone on them as a result of this tragedy, not just MRA/PUA culture.

      1. Hmm, actually, I think the PUA/MRA culture *is* the adult expression of the misogyny laid by our culture when men are children.

        There are non-PUA/MRA misogynists, yes. But in modern, Western society, IMO PUA/MRA misogynists are increasingly becoming the overwhelming majority of misogynists. Maybe I’m just having selection bias here, but I think it’s true. The only people I can see giving them competition in the misogyny arena are the Christian Right, and they’re on the wane. Even men who are not actually part of PUA/MRA culture and don’t even know what a PUA is will frequently mouth their slogans, in my experience.

        I think it’s no coincidence that of the female-targeted spree killings, all of them used MRA rhetoric (that I know of). From the Ecole Polytechnique massacre to the killings at the women’s gym to this–it was all MRA stuff.

        Basically, it seems to me (based on MY subcultural experience and news-reading, so, you know, with that limitation in mind) that MRA-style misogyny is how misogyny has mutated in the post-feminist era. It used to be “women belong in the home” and “blah blah blah God blah”, and it still is in some subcultures, but in the West nowadays it’s more likely to be “women are for sex. Why aren’t they giving me sex? Also, why do they have my job?”

        YMMV.

      2. I think the point is that PUA/MRA is unlikely to fucking die soon unless we have a massive cultural shift.

      3. Of course non-PUA/non-MRA should be exposed for who they are as well. Nowhere did I imply otherwise. The reason I want MRAs and PUAs in particular to be exposed is that they tend to gain legitimacy by operating under the guise of “biological realities” and/or “true equality”. I’m sick of them being ignored and/or sympathized with.

    2. Hopefully this incident will highlight the truly rotten and oppressive characters of PUAs and MRAs, even though not every one of them is like Rodger. But I doubt it…

      I doubt it too. Highly doubt it. It will merely serve as a retort to aggressive MRA behavior: ‘You sound like Elliott Rodger!’ I normally am very optimistic about things, but from an analytical aspect one has to look at the fact that it’s been three years since Anders Brevik went on his rampage and that has not had any noticeable effect on anti-Muslim rhetoric. That is but one example of how angry people don’t learn from tragedies.

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