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Sometimes, There Are No Words.

When debating feminism and religion, the conversation inevitably turns to Islam, and inevitably focuses on the headscarf. My view on the headscarf is that, while I have a big problem with legally mandating what an entire gender wears, debating whether or not Muslim women should voluntarily wear it is kind of silly. It’s an important conversation to be had, certainly, but it grates on my last nerve that when we’re discussing women and Islam, the headscarf is the primary topic — instead of, say, the thousands of other issues that women face around the world.

But all that said, it remains true that symbols matter. They’re meaningful, they project our cultural values, and their visual presence is compelling. Which is why, when the law mandates that we present particular symbols in our dress, it can be a pretty big deal. Case in point:

Iranian expatriates said Friday that the “National Uniform Law” authorized by the Iranian parliament a few days ago, which is aimed at getting “Western” style clothing off the streets and advancing more traditional “Islamic” attire, also includes a clause obligating Iranian Jews to wear a yellow ribbon.

Members of the country’s Christian minority will be forces to wear a red ribbon, while those practicing the ancient Persian religion will be obligated to place a blue ribbon on their clothes.

Now, I can’t find any more information about this other than this single article, and their only source seems to be “Iranian expatriates,” which makes me a little skeptical. But if it’s true, then wow. I have nothing else to say.


37 thoughts on Sometimes, There Are No Words.

  1. Go to ameriblog for a question about this law. Not that Iran is such a terrific proponent of civil liberties, but it is possible that this is Bush promoted propaganda.

  2. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3252830,00.html

    http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/05/19/1588516-cp.html

    It is a shame the po-mo left is so caught up with things at home they constantly make excuses for the downright atrocities that occur on a daily basis in the Muslism world.

    Honor Killings…check.
    Constant vilfication of whole ethnic groups…check.
    Women wishing they could get second class citizen status…check.
    Fatwa;s in Iraq for pograms against homosexuals…check.

    But you know, we don’t want to ‘judge’ them.

    I am of course not saying this is something inherent with Islam, but I am saying it is inherent in the kinds of Islamic political movement’s in the middle east. And it is a shame they don’t come under more fire by the people you would most hope would be aware of the plight of these people…

  3. But you know, we don’t want to ‘judge’ them.

    The fuck are you even talking about, you idiot? Jill questioned the veracity of the report, not the abhorrent nature of the practice if it is in fact real. Did you read “Sometimes there are no words” as a reluctance to speak harshly?

  4. Here’s a direct quote from one of your links:

    Harper said he could not vouch for the accuracy of the report. But if true, he said it would be a throwback to one of the most odious chapters in human history.

  5. here’s the opinion peice in Al-Sharq Al-Awsat (english edition) that Alnews refers to (it lifts a whole paragraph verbatim basically), I’m intrigued by the total absence of anything about these ribbons on the wiesenthal site, which is very odd.

    I’d wait and see if this is picked up by more reputable new sources before believing it, there is a government backed ex-patriate iranian anti-democracy group in america which has had the simple task of undermining post-revoutionary iran since komeini, via the medium of satellite TV (which isn’t censored in iran) and other propaganda type things, and who I wouldn’t put past spreading lies like this. The Anti-semitism charge has been bandied about alot during the build up to a possible invasion, and looks like it might end being woven into what ever “spreading Democracy(tm)” excuse will be used if iran backs down from the nuclear casus belli.

  6. Woah,

    I am not saying this definitely happened, I understand there is a good possibility it didn’t. And I am CERTAINTLY not criticizing Jill here. My post was more general, and actually, this site does call attention to the plight of woman and homosexuals in these regimes.

    As for ‘propaganda’, we will find out soon enough right? But before you go attributing this to Bush’s evil cabal, I find it pretty hard to believe that Bush or anyone in the administration WANTS a conflict with Iran right now. What they would want is for Iran to chill out, pump out cheap oil and stop messing with Iraq. It’s just the whole ‘we want nukes’ thing is making it hard to let them do that…

  7. I am not saying this definitely happened, I understand there is a good possibility it didn’t. And I am CERTAINTLY not criticizing Jill here. My post was more general, and actually, this site does call attention to the plight of woman and homosexuals in these regimes.

    Yeah, um, we’re the pomo left. Geddit? So when you make general remarks about those people, you implicate the bloggers here.

  8. Well, fair enough, but I thought Jill obviously excluded herself from consideration with her post.

    I don’t know, I am the only one who sees this equivocation happen all the time? I mean it is ok to get (legitimately) worked up about the religious right in the US, but when Iran has honour killings on the books as a law, you get people equivocating because it conflicts with their anti-americanism and post-modernist ‘we shall not judge’ bylaws.

    As an aside the Sunday Times , has a good article related to this recently:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2179115,00.html

  9. Well, fair enough, but I thought Jill obviously excluded herself from consideration with her post.

    You mean, provided a counterexample to your sweeping generalization?

    I don’t know, I am the only one who sees this equivocation happen all the time? I mean it is ok to get (legitimately) worked up about the religious right in the US, but when Iran has honour killings on the books as a law, you get people equivocating because it conflicts with their anti-americanism and post-modernist ‘we shall not judge’ bylaws.

    No, there are at least two of you, but I don’t think this is accurate.

    And that’s not an article you linked to. That’s an op-ed.

  10. As for ‘propaganda’, we will find out soon enough right? But before you go attributing this to Bush’s evil cabal, I find it pretty hard to believe that Bush or anyone in the administration WANTS a conflict with Iran right now. What they would want is for Iran to chill out, pump out cheap oil and stop messing with Iraq. It’s just the whole ‘we want nukes’ thing is making it hard to let them do that…

    Asking in earnest – do you seriously not feel the “deja vu” in all of this? After everything that has happened, you still can believe the words coming out of Bush’s mouth?

    If the experts are telling Bush it’s a bad idea, that sounds to me like the Administration WANTS a conflict right now. The specific outing of Valerie Plame (who worked specifically w/r/t Iran’s proliferation btw) sounds to me like the Administration WANTS a conflict right now. That the Administration is Fishing for a Pretext to Squeeze Iran sounds to me like they WANT a conflict right now.

  11. Listen, you can complain about generalization all you want, but I think you can clearly use a tautological definition here. Meaning, I am criticizing people who make excuses or equivocate what these governments do to their women, gay people and ethnic minority groups on the basis of post-modern, reflexively anti-US ideologies.

    If that applies to you, then yeah, I am criticizing you and saying it is a dumb framework to analyze international human rights issues. If not, and you can recognize the categorical difference in evil between say, Islamofascists in the middle east and Christianists in the US. Both are obvious problems, but the first is just in another world.

    Aside from generalizations, do you disagree with anything I have said? Did I touch a nerve here or what?

  12. That’s a mischaracterization of what you said. This is what you said:

    It is a shame the po-mo left is so caught up with things at home they constantly make excuses for the downright atrocities that occur on a daily basis in the Muslism world.

    You did not just complain about those beliefs. You attributed those beliefs to one particular group of people. That group of people includes me; I am a leftist and probably what most people would call pomo. That is what I have a problem with. I don’t disagree with the idea that honor killing is wrong and. I disagree with your belief that people like me tend not to believe that honor killing is wrong, or care that it’s happening. See how that’s offensive?

  13. Amy Bo Bamy,

    Oh I think there are obvious parrallels with regards to Iraq, except that on any criteria by which you decide to use the military force, Iran is clearly now a greater ‘candidate’.

    I don’t and never did believe a word Bush says, but I don’t think that because Bush is concerned about Iran’s nuclear program, I shouldn’t be.

    Bottom line, unless Iran does something REALLY REALLY stupid, I don’t see anything close to an invasion coming. Military strikes on nuclear plants, maybe, but do you honestly think Bush wants to ask America to send boys to Iran now? That would almost definitely require a draft, and Rove just doesn’t see the angle.

    There was a political angle for going into Iraq, it worked as a wedge to get Bush back into office, but now everyone is so pissed off I don’t see there is any polital capital to be gained by trying to push the country into a full scale war. I could be wrong, but that is just how I see it playing out.

    Most probably this will turn out to be crap, but if it isn’t, I mean Iran is starting to look a lot like 1930s Germany plus religious fundamentalism no?

  14. Alex, it might help if you linked any of your criticisms to anything Jill wrote in this post. Or to anything, really.

    WHO are these pomo liberals you’re complaining about, and WHAT, precisely, have they said or done or written that was anti-US and pro-oppression?

  15. It’s the Law of Opt-Out Blanket Statements. You make a claim about a group of people, and then when you get called on it you carve out an exception for the people complaining, all the while maintaining that your generalization holds true for all those *other* group members who don’t have the good fortune to be present to refute you.

  16. From the TNR piece:

    When it comes to the oppression of gays and lesbians in Muslim countries, gay activism hasn’t died; it never really existed. Gay activists have used two types of excuses to justify their failure to aggressively mobilize for the rights of gay Muslims–moral and strategic. The moral argument is that Americans are in no position to criticize Iranians on human rights–that it would be wrong to campaign too loudly against Iranian abuses when the United States has so many problems of its own. Then, there are two strategic rationales: that it is better to work behind the scenes to bring about change in Iran; and that gay rights groups should conserve their resources for domestic battles.

    The strategic rationales are not especially compelling, but it is the moral argument that is particularly troubling, because it suggests that some gay and lesbian leaders feel more allegiance to the relativism of the contemporary left than they do to the universality of their own cause. Activists are more than willing to condemn the homophobic leaders of the Christian right for campaigning against gay marriage; but they are wary of condemning Islamist regimes that execute citizens for being gay. Something has gone terribly awry.

    Take the moral rationale first. Matt Foreman, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force (NGLTF), told me that when George W. Bush was a governor, “there wasn’t a peep about the execution of juveniles in Texas. … Let’s not have double standards because it’s a different part of the world.” Foreman, who worked within the U.S. prison system for ten years, says that the United States still engages in “barbaric behavior” at home. “If we think that psychological torture and physical torture and rape and inhumane conditions are not part of our own criminal justice system, than people don’t have a clue about the reality of our nation, let alone the conditions of Guantánamo, let alone the sanctions to keep prisoners in Afghanistan.” To Foreman, it would be hypocritical for U.S. gays and lesbians to criticize Iran if they haven’t been criticizing America’s own prison system all along. Faisal Alam, founder of the Al-Fatiha Foundation, a U.S.-based non-profit for LGBT Muslims, also used the news of the Iran hangings to point a finger at the United States. “While we condemn the executions of gay teens in Iran, we must remember that until March of this year, our own country was one of only five in the world that executed juvenile offenders,” Alam wrote in an August Washington Blade column.

    Foreman’s and Alam’s comparisons are specious. America and Iran may both have flawed systems of punishing criminals; and, to be sure, juvenile executions are an illiberal practice, whether carried out in Houston or Tehran. But only Iran convicts those criminals simply because of their sexual orientation. That’s a pretty important distinction. Furthermore, U.S. gay rights organizations don’t have an inherent responsibility to take up the crusade for the rights of juvenile criminals; they do, however, have a responsibility to speak up when gays are executed simply for being gay. There’s nothing admirable about using one injustice as blinders for another

    Of course, there is always the issue of how groups should spend their resources. Foreman points out that the NGLTF’s mission is national in scope, not international. Michael Cole, communications manager for the Human Rights Campaign, explains his group’s limited response to the Iran hangings this way: “Frankly, our purview is not so wide to respond or deal with international incidents. … It’s a question of resources.” I would argue, however, that any organization premised upon the universality of inalienable rights and liberties ought to take as part of its mission the fate of those rights and liberties everywhere. And the organizations themselves concede this. The NGLTF’s website notes that the group works “to create a world that respects and makes visible the diversity of human expression and identity where all people may fully participate in society.” The IGLHRC’s site states that the organization is “a leader in the global movement to demand accountability for [anti-gay human rights] violations by state and non-state actors.” Human Rights Campaign President Joe Solmonese, in his letter to Condolezza Rice condemning the July hangings, wrote, “We hope you join us in our belief that every inhabitant of this world, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, has the inherent right to be free from human rights abuses, and will take action to highlight these injustices and condemn those countries that commit such inhumane acts.” Gay rights are either universal or they are not. If gay rights organizations believe that they are, then they cannot pretend that their missions are limited to domestic concerns.

    It is good to see the gay rights community having this debate. But gay activists need to come to a consensus sooner rather than later because, while they argue, Iranian lives are on the line. For now, mainstream gay organizations have made clear where they stand. As President Ahmadinejad, a man who is partially responsible for these brutalities, passed through New York last month, gay activists failed to confront him. Now he has returned to Iran, where those who are proven to be gay are thrown in jail, tortured, and executed on trumped-up charges. When it comes to the Muslim world, gay and lesbian leaders are evidently uncomfortable talking in moral absolutes. But if this is not absolute evil, then what is?

  17. Ooo, the wiesenthal group now has a peice up about it, a letter to the UN

    However, the wiesenthal group credits a “Amir Taheri, a well known and well respected analyst on Iranian affairs”, which is still a bit dubious, as I could probably count as an analyst of Iranian Affairs, and america is neck deep in ex-pat iranians who have inexplicably arisen to tell us what life inside iran is really like, even though they haven’t been in the country for decades, and the Iranians bloggers I’ve read seem to neither like Ahmadinejani nor paint the same picture of a crazy, out of control and deeply anti-semitic iran that the “ex-pats” do.

  18. The fuck are you even talking about, you idiot?

    WHO are these pomo liberals you’re complaining about, and WHAT, precisely, have they said or done or written that was anti-US and pro-oppression?

    jesus christ, you keep asking me for who I am talking about and when I give you an example, of exactly the type of thing I am talking about, you ask what the relevance is. It is relevant because one would think (hope?) that you would have seen protests when Ahmadinejad was here. It is relevant because the fact that this yellow ‘badge’ legislation is even a possibility in Iran and yet you hear 100x the vitriol pointed at the Christian Right than that levied at a regime like this from the left. (And on the right you see no vitriol pointed at Christians but then, I don’t expect there are many right wing people to speak with here now…) Why is that? Isn’t that a relevant question to a post about discrimination in Iran?

    I put forth that part of the reason for this was a reflexive equivocation on the part of people who ascribe to a post-modernist framework added to some anti-US feelings which mitigate all crimes commited by enemies of the current administration. I was wondering what people thought about that, but all I hear back, is asking if it is relevant to the particular post. I didn’t realize I was blocking the comment storm on the veracity of these reports from happening, I apologize, by all means proceed, proceed…

  19. Alex:

    Those stories seem to me to say something different than what you originally said. It’s one thing to suggest, as those stories do, that most of the gay rights movement is ignoring Iranian abuses of its gay population and should be talking about it more. It’s something else to claim that parts of the left are “excusing” the various civil rights abuses in Iran or saying “we don’t want to ‘judge’ them.” I’d say that both arguments are rather silly (while there certainly should be outrage against the murders in Iran, it’s seems entirely unfair to point at groups organized to work for gay rights in the US and claim they should be doing something), but the second argument is also, in my experience, completely unfounded in reality. It’s possible, of course, that certain parts of the left I’m unaware of have been excusing these abuses, but I’d like to see examples.

  20. Alex, your complaints might be relevant if Jill, any other member of Feministe, or any blogger that Feministe links to on a regular basis had made such statements, but they haven’t. You pull out some statements by people who happen to be left-wing, and tar the entire left with them. Just like Ann Coulter and Jerry Falwell speak for every conservative, Ward Churchill or Noam Chomsky (or this guy) don’t speak for every liberal. It’s not an especially complicated concept. If Jill were friends or colleagues with the people who have been publicly quoted saying stupid shit, or if she had endorsed the aforementioned stupid shit, that would be one thing, but that hasn’t happened. “The Left” is not a fucking monolithic entity with a single voice and a single opinion. So quit acting like Jill is responsible for anything except her own words and the words of others whom she endorses. Has she ever even MET these guys? No. So why are you dragging them into this comment thread?

    Oh, and before you get too excited about “liberal hypocrisy” kindly remember that prior to 9/11, pretty much the only organizations publicizing just how fucked up the Taliban regime was in Afghanistan were feminist groups and Amnesty International. I had heard of the Taliban years before the World Trade Centre, because of feminist groups trying to publicize the conditions there and press for change. Also, there are indigenous movements for religious freedom, women’s rights, and gay rights even in very intolerant countries.

  21. Oh, and before you get too excited about “liberal hypocrisy” kindly remember that prior to 9/11, pretty much the only organizations publicizing just how fucked up the Taliban regime was in Afghanistan were feminist groups and Amnesty International.

    Mavis Leno, Jay Leno’s wife, was working on these issues in the 90s. Jay was lending her his celebrity back then to raise awareness; she normally didn’t capitalize on her status as a celebrity wife, but felt she needed to for this issue.

  22. As a Liberal and in the spirit of individualism and “Don’t Blanket Me With Stereotypes” rhetoric, I’ll say, don’t ever associate me with Jay Leno’s wife or any of these liberal groups who publicized the reality of the Taliban. The reality is, most Liberals probably didn’t give two shits about the Taliban before 9/11. I know I didn’t and I certainly don’t deserve any sort of credit through supposed association with these groups.

    Now really, it’s easy to “win” an argument based on calling out unfair marginalizing generalization. ( It’s also easy to let our emotions get the best of us to the point of which we call the opposition an “idiot.”) Alex makes a fair point regarding the way liberals do tend to frame the world and in no way should certain liberals excuse themselves from his accusations based on loose association with some groups.

    But Alex, by claiming that the atrocities of the “Muslim World” are far worse than what we have here in the U.S., you’re also being biased in the weight of your charges. Islam, like Christianity, is a religion of the book and all claims about the religion should be centered what’s actually written. Foul interpretations of the book should be seen as Islam, but an interpretation of it. Those interperpretations, like your own of the Bible, are shaped by many variables including those that you discredit. Therefore, we judge the Taliban and their interpretation of Islam, and not Islam itself. Further, the term “Muslim World” illustrates an area that is defined by, little if anything else, religion. I have a feeling that you would like to be defined by something more than your love for Jesus, am I right?

  23. The reality is, most Liberals probably didn’t give two shits about the Taliban before 9/11. I know I didn’t and I certainly don’t deserve any sort of credit through supposed association with these groups.

    I think she was talking specifically about human rights and feminist organizations, who were very vocal and knowledgable about the Taliban well before 9/11.

  24. I do think it is very fair to say “Muslim World” without meaning ‘all Muslims’ or Islam. Islam isn’t a monolithic entity, nobody says that, all religions have people who are interpreting them, just like you can talk about the state of democracy in the ‘Arab World’ without making any generalizations about individual Arabs, or you can make statements about ‘the Patriarchy’ without talking about all men. This is how we talk about stuff, I know it is a bit of a pressure point with post-modernists (of which I know we have at least one here), but instead of saying ‘countries that where political Islam is an imporant force in determining government laws and common morality’ we say ‘Muslim world’. I mean is this even an unfair generalization, are there countries that have Sharia and don’t have barbaric views on women?

    Since this has implicitly become an attack on me…for what it is worth, I am an atheist (but thanks for the Bible chat), I just don’t think where you are coming from should determine legitimacy of your arguments, and I think the “Christian right” in the US has incredibly fucked up views when it comes to women, I mean just check out The Corner, it’s terrifying and I fully support efforts to improve gender issues at home. I just think a women is 100 times better off in New York than in Tehran, and we should acknowledge that a bit more.

  25. I just think a women is 100 times better off in New York than in Tehran, and we should acknowledge that a bit more.

    And that’s why you hijacked the comment thread on Jill’s post. Because “we” have to acknowledge that. Who’s “we”? Ya think you could maybe acknowledge it on your own blog, or in an entry to this blog where it’s actually relevant and therefore not a thread hijack? Because I’m a reader of Feministe too, and I’d like to know that when I click on the responses to an entry, they probably have something to do with the actual entry.

    And no I’m not a mod or a site owner, just a reader, so if one of the site owners feels I’m overstepping by bitching you out, they can feel free to delete this post. But this is a sore subject because the whole “all liberals are responsible because some liberal somewhere did or said X, or failed to do or say Y” thing drives me up the fucking wall. As does the “I know the current topic is actually X but I think we should be talking about Y right now instead, and I’m going to stand in everybody else’s way and talk about Y regardless” thing.

  26. I think she was talking specifically about human rights and feminist organizations, who were very vocal and knowledgable about the Taliban well before 9/11.

    Yeah, I remember getting repeated accounts, pre-9/11, of what was happening to women in Afghanistan, and the horrors of the Taliban. And these were well pre-9/11 accounts. Human rights and feminist organizations were definitely on the story (however unaware your average liberal or conservative may have been).

  27. haha, ok ok, didn’t realize a comment thread could only contain one idea at a time…excuse me.

  28. Oh, and before you get too excited about “liberal hypocrisy” kindly remember that prior to 9/11, pretty much the only organizations publicizing just how fucked up the Taliban regime was in Afghanistan were feminist groups and Amnesty International.

    In a way, this is the point. Most non-feminist liberals refused to listen to the feminist groups and did not consider the situation in Afghanistan to be a human rights violation worth getting worked up over. Now these same liberals see any discussion of women’s rights in Islamic countries as a disingenuous conservative ploy to justify invading those countries. There’s a strong antifeminist element on the left.

  29. I was getting annoyed enough that I started skimming at some point – so did anyone ever explain what the fuck “pomo” refers to?

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