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Naomi Wolf to the Front Desk with a Two-by-Four, Stat!

Anthony Citrano responded to my follow-up post about eating disorders. No, actually, I take it back. He offered a non-response, and then he let me know that he would not be responding any more:

It’s a bit frustrating that you have missed my thesis entirely, while claiming you know it.

In your second comment herein, you actually say the same thing that you eviscerated me for saying – that non-anorexic women are being called anorexic out of “punishing and jealousy.”

If I can gain anything from your putting a great deal of your own words into my mouth, I hope it’s that you and your readers will take a few minutes to read my piece and give it a fair shake.

The anorexia bullshit is a perfect example of the cognitive biasing power of “availability heuristics” – that is, the perceived danger of a given threat is fueled more by its dramatics than its facts. While I admit to a touch of cartooning (as is my lifelong style to get my point across,) my goal is to bring more facts than drama to the issues I take on.

Anyway, like I said to Jill, I do appreciate the discourse, even if we disagree. Thanks.

And then:

I tried to engage you constructively, but you insist on changing the subject, misinterpreting what I’ve said, then (in violation of any civilized rules of debate) going ad hominem. My doing so with you would be too easy.

So instead, I’ll move on, and hope that you eventually shed the anger and explore my points with a clear and open mind.

And by the way, thanks for helping me finally figure out what it is I find so hot about Hatcher. It had been bugging me.

Oh, please don’t tune me out! I’ll modulate my tone, I promise. I didn’t mean to get angry! I’ll be good! And please, please, please don’t insult me! I don’t know if I’d ever recover! I’d probably start purging!

Let me lay it out for you, Anthony–or, rather, for myself; you were never listening. Were you open-minded, you would have encountered and taken pains to understand all of these critiques of your argument long before we started talking.

An eating disorder–the actual condition–is defined by self-hatred projected upon the body. Like I said, the body and the control forced upon it are usually symbolic of a need to control one’s life or self. It isn’t exactly about the body, although the body isn’t chosen at random.

An eating disorder as defined by our culture is typified by denial of appetite resulting in emaciation: “delicacy” taken just a wee bit too far. The changes it causes in the body are not considered negative until they reach the far extreme: the skeleton, the corpse. The damage it does to the psyche, and the underlying pain it represents, are not considered particularly important unless and until the sufferer is extremely unstable.

This culture does not have any problem either with denial of appetite or extreme thinness in women. We think both of those things are pleasing and admirable. Our beauty ideal is defined by the latter, which necessitates the former. Teri Hatcher may or may not have an eating disorder; however, she has a body that cannot be arrived at through any regimen that isn’t obsessive and unfeasible. Women are taught to emulate Teri Hatcher. We do not look at Teri Hatcher and see someone doing something wrong or freakish. We see someone on the cover of Mademoiselle. (Remember, too, that being a sex symbol is not necessarily a ticket to uncomplicated prestige. Teri’s desirable, not desired.)

This is why our culture is confused about anorexia, and why you engaged in such a disastrous misreading of the anorexia “slur.” We do not have a definition of anorexic pathology apart from the level at which it becomes fatal–a level that most eating-disorder sufferers never reach. That is the point at which the cultural understanding of anorexia begins to distinguish itself from our ideal of beauty and fitness, not before. Apart from that, we have no concept of when self-hatred, body obsession, and rigid control are understood to be bad things for women. We have not drawn a practical line beyond which a woman is unhealthily invested in her body.

So when a woman derides another woman for “anorexia,” she is not saying, “Goddamnit! How dare she be thin! She must have an eating disorder, and how pathetic is that! Cheater! Crazy bitch!” She is saying, “I wish I looked more like the ideal!” She speaks with the understanding that most people who manage the ideal are people whose diets are profoundly disordered. She understands as well that as far as everyone else is concerned, there’s nothing wrong with a woman who hates herself. She understands, finally, that her appearance outweighs everything else about her–will, in fact, be taken for her (“knows how to say no to herself”). There is no moderation compatible with that.

The damaging aspect of anorexia doesn’t enter into the calculus. It’s a brutally efficient way for normal girls to get skinny, full stop. She’s not jealous of thinness. She’s jealous of the women “like her” who’ve gotten hooked up with the best diet regimen ever. And make no mistake: she is not underestimating the severity of the changes anorexia wreaks on the body or the desperation it would involve. She is not looking towards “reasonable” self-denial.

Now, as far as this “availability heuristics” bullshit: no, not so much. We don’t over-focus on the deaths because we think anorexia is a scourge of youth or because we don’t want to talk about obesity. We focus on them because we don’t want to deal with what disordered eating actually is. We don’t want to deal with the far more common, far less dramatic, far less freakish symptoms most sufferers display, or with an understanding of eating disorders more nuanced than mortality. That would involve looking at a cultural understanding of women’s “health and fitness” that puts anorexia nervosa on a continuum with “healthy” self-perception and eating habits. In other words, looking at you:

My personal offhand estimate had been that we might lose about 100 Americans annually to anorexia. My research this morning showed that I was not far off – a 2001 study by the University of British Columbia’s Department of Psychology of every American death for the most recently available five year period showed only 724 people with anorexia as a causal factor – 145 per year. Christina Hoff-Sommers, in her research for the book Who Stole Feminism, came up with a number below half that. In a presentation to the International Congress of Psychology, one expert (Dr. Paul Hewitt) estimated a death rate for anorexia of 6.6 per 100,000 deaths. Even if you assume that sufferers outnumber deaths by a few orders of magnitude, it would still seem that all objective evidence shows the health impact on Americans from anorexia is statistically nil. Now, I know that doesn’t make for very good shock journalism, but it doesn’t change the uncomfortable fact that it’s true.

With a few more recipes, and a little more carrot than stick, this could be copy for any women’s magazine:

I know several girls whom others consider “anorexic” because they are very lean and don’t have emblematic American appetites. They are in fact not anorexic; but they are more cautious about their intake than most. They are vibrant, healthy, and adequately nourished; they can even run a couple of miles at a good pace. And that’s much more than most Americans can say.

So, please, ladies – the girl who has the body the rest of you wish you had is not anorexic. The girl who delicately refuses the eighteen-ounce wedge of deep-fried cheesecake the rest of you dive into after dinner is not anorexic. The girl who is obsessed with fitting back into those size 1 jeans is not anorexic. She’s just thinner than you, knows how to say no to herself, and it makes you jealous.

Girls, girls, you can both be pretty!

You’re this patronizing, and this shallow, and you expect people not to get angry? You started out oblivious, and you’ve clearly decided to stay that way. Why would it bother me that you feel insulted? At least you can read something right.


67 thoughts on Naomi Wolf to the Front Desk with a Two-by-Four, Stat!

  1. The girl who is obsessed with fitting back into those size 1 jeans is not anorexic.

    That’s true. But she’s really boring.

  2. “She is saying, “I wish I looked more like the ideal!” She speaks with the understanding that most people who manage the ideal are people whose diets are profoundly disordered.”

    This is where you lose me. It seems to me that somone who is greatly above or below the “ideal” weight is the one whose diets are profoundly disordered, not the other way around. Are you saying that most of the people who maintain a reasonable weight by consuming the amount of calories that they burn (via diet or exercise or both) are disordered?

  3. This is where you lose me. It seems to me that somone who is greatly above or below the “ideal” weight is the one whose diets are profoundly disordered, not the other way around.Are you saying that most of the people who maintain a reasonable weight by consuming the amount of calories that they burn (via diet or exercise or both) are disordered?

    You’re conflating “reasonable” with “ideal”. One is based on biology, the other on aesthetics.

  4. piny, thanks better articulating (via a better grasp on the whole subject altogether) what I was trying to say the other day. You can read my clumsy treatment – from the perspective of someone who has never had an eating disorder, but has still been truly hurt by a lifetime of hating her body and fearing food – of the subject if you’re interested.

  5. Sophist,

    My doctor told me what my “ideal” weight should be. It seems reasonable to me, so I have done what is required (watch what I eat, and exercise) to stay close to that weight (within 10 pounds or so).

    I agree that people who see Kate Moss as an “ideal” have many more mental issues than just food and their weight.

    I have yet to see anyone comment on the point of Anthony’s article: that the health problems caused by obesity are far more prevalent in today’s society than the health problems caused by anorexia.

    Does anyone dispute that?

  6. Sara, I just read your article. It seems that you agree with some of the points raised by Anthony in his. Specifically:

    “It’s like people pull out the dead anorexic girl as their trump card – even when she is not simply a product of her culture.”

    That’s exactly what I took from Anthony’s article as well.

  7. I don’t dispute that point at all, RM. I just think it’s pretty much irrelevant, that the health issue is brought up as more of an excuse for him to insult women he doesn’t think are skinny enough than anything, and that comparing anorexia to obesity isn’t as good a comparison as many people seem to think it is. Anorexia is much rarer than obesity in the US – yup! But as Jill discussed, there are all kinds of serious mental, emotional, and physical problems non-anorexic women have with their weight, problems that he’s cruelly dismissing with a simple “you’re fat and jealous.”

    Additionally, if he’s using a size 1 woman who don’t eat dessert, runs several miles every day, and is obsessed with being able to fit into those size 1 jeans as his example of what average, *healthy* womanhood should be, then it shows he has no clue about what healthiness truly is. Do you know how tiny a size 1 is? Do you know that the average woman isn’t even going to be a size 6 if she’s in great shape?

  8. Urgh, the “don’t eat dessert” part is because I originally said “size 1 women” and had everything in the plural. Ahem.

  9. She speaks with the understanding that most people who manage the ideal are people whose diets are profoundly disordered

    I’m going to take issue with that too — not all who “manage the ideal” are unhealthy. Some folks just happen to be 5’10” and 110 pounds and eat everything in sight. Again, what makes someone’s eating disordered is not their weight or their proximity to the ideal but how they feel about themselves.

    It’s also important to point out that it is possible to work out a great deal, worry about one’s body — and not be consumed by self-loathing. A mild, nagging anxiety is not the same thing as an obsession.

  10. I’m going to take issue with that too — not all who “manage the ideal” are unhealthy. Some folks just happen to be 5′10″ and 110 pounds and eat everything in sight. Again, what makes someone’s eating disordered is not their weight or their proximity to the ideal but how they feel about themselves.

    This is what I said:

    She speaks with the understanding that most people who manage the ideal are people whose diets are profoundly disordered

    Remember that I was talking about Teri Hatcher just a few paragraphs before?

  11. So, please, ladies – the girl who has the body the rest of you wish you had is not anorexic. The girl who delicately refuses the eighteen-ounce wedge of deep-fried cheesecake the rest of you dive into after dinner is not anorexic. The girl who is obsessed with fitting back into those size 1 jeans is not anorexic. She’s just thinner than you, knows how to say no to herself, and it makes you jealous.

    Size one jeans? How many women today can actually fit into a pair of size one jeans besides someone like my daughter who is and always has been, naturally extremely thin. Her boyfriend who also is very small spends most of his time worrying about his diminutive size and obsessing about ‘bulking up’ because he doesn’t fit the ideal. Even so, he still can find good and stable employment and does not feel hampered economically or socially, nor does he have a pervading sense of worthlessness hammered into his brain on every front in the media.

    Personally, I was wirey as a girl, but then I turned into a women like most females do and my ‘snake hips’ transformed themselves into womenly hips and I even grew boobs and a butt. I hated it and often went for days without eating. I have a picture of myself at seventeen and I swear, standing sideways, it is hard to see my body at all, save for a thin line of a body. And I saw myself as unattractive.

    I have yet to see anyone comment on the point of Anthony’s article: that the health problems caused by obesity are far more prevalent in today’s society than the health problems caused by anorexia.

    Continuously fat people are thrown up as a threat, “See what happens when you don’t comply! You mean you support THIS?”

    Well of course no one ‘supports’ unhealthy obesity. But who in this country who has eyes and half a brain can be oblivious to the fact that women are not valued unless they conform to some obscure ideal body weight. The old body weight scales are truly meaningless and time and again research has shown this, but people continue to drag them out of the closet to shame women for not fitting the ‘standard’.

    What really bothers me is why are so many people obsessed with making women conform? I mean, outside of severe obesity, is it really anyone’s business how a woman chooses to live? Just the mere fact that everyone from the preacher man to the post man has an opinion on every aspect of what the ideal woman is and how many women don’t fit into that mold is bothersome.

    Look at the charactures of fat men? Homer, the “The Family Guy”, Lou Grant from Mary Tyler Moore, Danny DeVito, every other business man you see in an airport, every other husband you see over thirty. Why is it that you people focus so obsessively on women? Why are fat men seen as warm and fuzzy, but fat women are seen as disgusting, lazy and insipid?

    THe obesity vs. healthy women provocateurs’ argument reminds me much of the anti-immigrant crusaders — in their arguments they use euphemisms and symbols which only serve to reveal the prejudice they try so hard to deny.

    The women as pencil thin ideal seems to smack of a social order that needs to find a new way to shame women about their sexuality to the point where to have the body of a fifteen year old enuch is the ideal. No doubt also as women gain more power in the social order, new ways must develop to keep women weak and vulnerable.

    Trainers claim that horses and dogs and other animals enjoy doing tricks and learning rigorous rituals of conformance because said conformance to their masters’ wishes is the animal’s greatest pleasure.

    When will women cease to see their existance as worthy of nothing more than pet ponies who have nothing more to contribute to humanity than breeding and prancing around to the approval of some invisible, insidious master?

  12. The health problems caused by obesity could just as easily be the health problems caused by a sedentary lifestyle, the health problems caused by the lack of affordable fresh and healthful foods, the health problems caused by trans fat and high fructose corn syrup, the health problems caused by sitting in a cubicle for 8+ hours a day. In all likelihood, the health problems caused by obesity are actually caused by a multiplicity of issues interacting with one another; the obesity is what you can see. And because we as a culture have opted to demonize fat and exalt extreme thinness, it’s the part that we attack.

    Warning: the following may be triggering for people who are sensitive about ED images.

    What piny is saying (I think) is that the problem with disordered eating is that it’s not just the visible extremes. It isn’t just the skeletal woman who’s stopped menstruating and works out until she can’t see and is growing fur as her body desperately tries to trap body heat. It isn’t the sorority girl in the afterschool special who empties the fridge and then cries as she vomits it all back up.

    It’s the normal woman worried about bathing suit season or about baby weight; it’s the teenaged boy trying to make weight for wrestling; it’s the obese person who’s scared to see a general practitioner because s/he knows that all the doctor will focus on is weight. It’s the father who makes well-meaning jokes about “puppy fat” to his kids. It’s the person who thinks “five more pounds, just five more pounds.” It’s my co-worker who said to me today, “I’ve put on ten pounds, and I can’t stand myself.” It’s her daughter, who won’t feed her own toddler daughter anything with sugar or fat in it, and it’s the toddler who is below a healthy weight for a child six months younger than she is, and who won’t learn anything about food except that it’s scary, and that fat is unacceptable.

    Compared with that, the obesity epidemic is nothing, my friend.

  13. Thanks, piny. I’ve loved this whole series of posts, and this is a brilliant final smackdown.

    As an aside: I’ve noticed that once your opponents start taking issue with the form of the argument rather than its content, i.e., Citrano complaining about “availability heuristics” or ad hominem, it’s usually a clear sign that they’ve lost the argument. At least, I think it’s a clear sign to the rest of us. I’m not sure it’s always so clear to them.

    I’m not eager to be tarred with the words-in-others-mouths brush myself, but Raging Moderate, regarding this:

    I have yet to see anyone comment on the point of Anthony’s article: that the health problems caused by obesity are far more prevalent in today’s society than the health problems caused by anorexia.

    Does anyone dispute that?

    I have to ask: Did you read this post? Because this is what I take to be one of its main points:

    You’re this patronizing, and this shallow, and you expect people not to get angry? You started out oblivious, and you’ve clearly decided to stay that way.

    See, because funny thing: If you bury your main point in condescending, bigoted, inaccurate assumptions–like, say, that every woman who’s overweight is so because she routinely “dives into” an “eighteen-ounce wedge of deep-fried cheesecake” “after dinner,” or, say, that a “size 1” is anything but an extreme, that is, categorically not the norm, on the distribution curve of women’s clothing sizes–when you bury your argument in layers of stupid like that, people tend to quit giving a fuck what your precious point was to begin with.

    Especially when that point–“obesity is more prevalent than anorexia”–is not exactly breaking news. It’s banal.

  14. Piny,

    So “Teri Hatcher” = “most people”? I’m confused.

    I would have agreed with “some people”, but not “most people”.

    Ilyka,

    “when you bury your argument in layers of stupid(ity) like that, people tend to quit giving a fuck what your precious point was to begin with.”

    Yes, some people do that, unfortunately (it says quite a bit about those people, I would argue). I agree with you that most of what Anthony said was nonsense, but I am not blinded by anger to the kernal of truth at the heart of his opinion (that anorexia is often brought up to show the dangers of moderation in eating habits – “if you warn people about over-eating, they might become anorexic”).

    I understand the contempt directed at Anthony and thus your desire to avoid his point, but what have I said that would make you avoid the point I’m trying to discuss? Just by agreeing with him (although I have not been condescending or insulting)? I think president Bush is a moron, but I do not disregard everything he says. As the old saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

  15. RM, as far as I can tell, Anthony took away the complete opposite point that I was making regarding the fact that anorexia doesn’t kill a comparative lot of people. There are huge problems with food, media and body image that don’t result in deaths (whether from obesity or anorexia – it doesn’t really matter) that still need to be paid attention because they make people feel like crap.

  16. It’s not warning people about overeating,dude. It’s like if you’re still able to mensturate, you’re going to DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH!!!! It’s like if we decided to cut down on car crashes by having a blaring hysteria about how if you even stepped behind the wheel once, you were going to die a horrible horrible death, and every magazine went on about it ad nausuem. We aren’t sane about this- we’ve gone to the level of dehumanzing fat people(as a future fatty*, I say boo.), acting like 10 year olds dieting is at all normal or healthy, and simply losing our heads about the whole deal.

    *On top, I’m still a size one, but on bottom, I’m now a size 6. But when I get older, I might not have the time to walk to the store

  17. I understand the contempt directed at Anthony and thus your desire to avoid his point…

    It’s not that anyone wants to avoid his point, it’s that his point is irrelevant. I mean, more people die from car accidents than from Aids, does that mean Aids isn’t worth discussing? Anorexia is a problem. The fact that it’s not the biggest problem out there is beside the point.

  18. “It’s not that anyone wants to avoid his point, it’s that his point is irrelevant. I mean, more people die from car accidents than from Aids, does that mean Aids isn’t worth discussing?”

    No, of course not. But we wouldn’t say that trying to prevent car accidents will cause more AIDS. That is what often happens in discussing the problem of obesity. Don’t tell people that our society is too fat, you’ll make more people anorexic!

    Re-reading Anthony’s original article, I see where some of his comments seem to diminish the seriouness of anorexia. I don’t share that opinion. I believe it is very dangerous and debilitating to anyone unfortunate enough to suffer from it. Time and effort should spent helping those sufferers and trying to figure out how to prevent others from developing the disease as well.

    But I do share his opinion on that one point: I agree that obesity is a far more prevalent problem than anorexia in today’s society. And too often, anorexia is brought up as a reason why telling people to eat in moderation in order to maintain a stable weight is dangerous (“society and advertising and movies and tv and fashion etc. have caused too many eating disorders as it is, you’ll only create more”).

    Many of the posts here about this topic seem to confirm my opinion. There are several posts about how dangerous anorexia is (with which I agree). But I don’t recall any posts regarding our “consumption-obsessed culture” and the dangers involved with it.

    Does anyone disagree that today’s society tends to glorify over-consumption, and that discipline, self-denial, and restraint are no longer seen as virtuous?

  19. Does anyone disagree that today’s society tends to glorify over-consumption, and that discipline, self-denial, and restraint are no longer seen as virtuous?

    The Victorian era prevails.

    Seriously, I don’t really consider the two related politically because the aesthetic of one is clearly less socially desirable and the aesthetic of the other is clearly more socially desirable.

    How many people do you know who would be willing to take ten years off their lives if they could wake up the next day obese?

  20. How many people do you know who would be willing to take ten years off their lives if they could wake up the next day obese?

    I’m referencing women’s mags here.

  21. Don’t tell people that our society is too fat, you’ll make more people anorexic!

    Obesity –true obesity– is already destroyed in the marketplace of human attractiveness, so there’s no need to “tell people” that they are “too fat”: people who are too fat are already well aware of it. The social ideal for women is rather thinner than normal weight, not vice-versa.

    Anorexia is not used in society to denounce “moderate” eating or “stable weight”, but as Anthony himself notes “undereating” and “very lean” (whatever that means). The problem is all of these terms are subjective. I think Jill’s point is that proper weight and eating habits should be characterized by biological health and psychological self-respect, not inordinate social norms.

    I would strongly disagree that society glorifies over-consumption. Our society is highly schiziophrenic. When it comes to womens’ weight it clearly glorifies Anthony’s ideal, beyond what is psychologically or physically healthy. More broadly it “glorifies” money, status, and power, which in turn require hard work and discipline to achieve.

    At the same time people’s efforts to attain money, status and power will only ever succeed for themselves if they can get other people to consume. We have one of the lowest savings rates in the developed world. Our politicians are binge spenders themselves with hardly a modicum of self-restraint.

    Yes, overconsumption is predominant, but it’s not from social ideal of women which actually encourages underconsumption. And these two forces don’t just “cancel each other out” but contribute to eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia because of the psychological harms of extremist powerful cross-pressures. Women are caught in the middle of two competing messages going in the opposite direction, neither of which are really healthy. The solution for both men and women is to change the eating culture, but that would involve, as in the case of cigarettes, regulating capitalism.

  22. Out of curiousity, does Citrano post his own height, weight, BMI, clothing size, and provide photo documentation that he’s conforming to “ideal” (in the public, rather than medical, definitions, since that’s clearly what he’s on about) as well?

  23. Well, simply speaking to my own ever-growing awareness of the issue– I was always naturally moderately thin (high school weight of 125, eating pizza three times a day with ice cream for dessert), but then the “over thirty/baby weight” gig did its thing, and I hit the hardly obese weight of 150 at 5’6″. This was also due in part to a messy divorce, and eating huge portions of pasta at every given opportunity.

    At a certain point, I saw a picture of myself and didn’t like it, and I realized, too, that as far as dating again went, I was as good as invisible. So over the last year, through switching to a healthy diet (soy milk, sushi, veggies, no fried foods, no soda, etc) and trimming portions to reasonable, plus exercise, I’ve lost thirty-one pounds. At 119, I’m on the lowest end of the BMI, and I’m not unaware that I don’t need to lose more.

    Except.

    Except that now? I’m not invisible. Now my coworkers (male and female alike) constantly tell me how good I look, and heads turn again, sometimes, when I go down the street. It’s one thing to read about it in a study, and quite another to experience this sort of thing first-hand. How am I *not* supposed to internalize the message that thin is good, especially since I’m getting older (36), and that’s a whole other issue regarding attractiveness?

    I don’t think I’ve got an eating disorder yet per se, but I’ve caught myself a couple of times looking at the scale and thinking, “119, huh. Wouldn’t 118 look a little better?”

    And then I try very hard to have some guacamole and curse the patriarchy.

  24. No, of course not. But we wouldn’t say that trying to prevent car accidents will cause more AIDS. That is what often happens in discussing the problem of obesity. Don’t tell people that our society is too fat, you’ll make more people anorexic!

    What Lauren said. I would say that our cultural abstinence fetish results in an inability to control rates of STD transmission. Poor eating habits and cultural obsession with anorexia-esque thinness are probably related, just in a different way than some people seem to think.

  25. Out of curiousity, does Citrano post his own height, weight, BMI, clothing size, and provide photo documentation that he’s conforming to “ideal” (in the public, rather than medical, definitions, since that’s clearly what he’s on about) as well?

    Actually, a few references to his habits indicated that he wouldn’t fit into a pair of tight jeans, either. My past experiences with weight arbiters and anti-“consumption” gadflies support no correlation between conventional beauty and these kinds of arguments.

  26. I don’t think I’ve got an eating disorder yet per se, but I’ve caught myself a couple of times looking at the scale and thinking, “119, huh. Wouldn’t 118 look a little better?”

    (This is absolutely not meant to imply that you are teh anorexic!!1!)

    I think that given the way we’re taught treat food, it’s very easy to slip into caring in the wrong way; we deal with a lot of mundane stress around eating.

    While people with eating disorders have to acknowledge that they have an illness, the way they tackle the quotidian threat of starvation and compulsion is to look at their disordered habits and try to re-shape them. When am I most likely to skip a meal? When am I most comfortable eating? What triggers disordered behavior? What is a normal meal plan and how do I establish one for myself?That aspect of treatment is goal-oriented; it’s built around recovery as a process rather than a thick bright line.

    IOW, the best way to stay away from obsessive and cultivate stability is to gently but firmly nudge oneself away from unrealistic expectations when they occur, which is just what you’re doing. I think it’s effective whether the hard truth is, “I cannot survive on the skim milk I pour into the three cups of coffee I drink in the morning,” or, “I am not a bad person for finishing a pint of ice cream.”

  27. IOW, the best way to stay away from obsessive and cultivate stability is to gently but firmly nudge oneself away from unrealistic expectations when they occur, which is just what you’re doing. I think it’s effective whether the hard truth is, “I cannot survive on the skim milk I pour into the three cups of coffee I drink in the morning,” or, “I am not a bad person for finishing a pint of ice cream.”

    Yes, I think so, too, and I’m fortunate enough to have close friends that I can discuss this with. They are very good at helping me have a reality check now and again (“you know, you’re doing that obsessing thing”), plus some pie.

    Thanks for commenting. 🙂

  28. Yes, I think so, too, and I’m fortunate enough to have close friends that I can discuss this with. They are very good at helping me have a reality check now and again (”you know, you’re doing that obsessing thing”), plus some pie.

    Yes! The best thing that ever happened to me was hooking up with a bunch of friends with potluck fetishes. They didn’t even have to say anything most times; just having people around who ate like people should helped train me to have an appetite again.

    Good way to establish the relationship between cooking, comfort, and craftsmanship, too.

  29. Piny,

    So “Teri Hatcher” = “most people”? I’m confused.

    I would have agreed with “some people”, but not “most people”.

    No. “Teri Hatcher” = the ideal. To make it even more clear, “most people,” including probably Teri Hatcher, would have trouble staying as thin as the ideal. Understand?

  30. Do you know how tiny a size 1 is?

    Not really; but then, neither does anyone else. It’s not like these numbers are associated with any specific absolute measurements. How big is size 1? Smaller than size 2, and larger than size 0. How do women find clothes that fit?

  31. Actually, a few references to his habits indicated that he wouldn’t fit into a pair of tight jeans, either. My past experiences with weight arbiters and anti-”consumption” gadflies support no correlation between conventional beauty and these kinds of arguments.

    The implicit “Then he should shut the fuck up” becomes explicit, then. People (usually penis-bearers) who tell others how they should be, without ever having felt the weight of the gaze themselves, really need to check it.

  32. You know what I’d really like to talk about? Men who are paranoid about being accused of rape. And after that, maybe we can brainstorm some ways to prevent people from falling out of love and getting divorced. And then maybe we can talk about all the sex people have when they shouldn’t and how best to stop them! Oh, and serial aborters, if there’s time.

    Who’s with me?

  33. Does anyone think that obesity is a problem in today’s society?

    Yes.

    If you do, how do you suggest we go about solving that problem?

    Combatting anorexia, denial and hatred of appetites, and the obsessive attention to female appearance are all good places to start.

  34. Thanx for the reply sophonisba.

    This was the kind of suggestion I expected, but I don’t understand the psychology involved.

    I’d agree that your suggestion would help combat anorexia and other self-starving conditions. It makes sense that if society holds extreme thinness to be the ideal to be strived for, then some people would take that too far and try to be too thin. But how does it push people in the other direction?

    Back in the day that a Rubenesque figure was the ideal, I could understand how people would strive for this, and perhaps go too far to obesity. But did they have an epidemic of people going the other way to extreme thinness (purposely, not due to poverty)?

    Today we are told that very, very thin is sexy and desirable. If we change that and say that the average body type is the ideal, how would that combat over-eating? Even if the normal sized woman is the ideal, the obese will still be far from it (75 pounds over the ideal instead of 100). How would this help them?

  35. Changing the “ideal” isn’t the point. The point is to get people to stop thinking no one will ever love them if they don’t fit the “ideal.” If you’ve gotten it into your head that no one will ever want to fuck you because you’re a size 10, it’s not that hard to just stop caring and let yourself become a size 20, because eating the goddamn cheesecake is more fun than hating yourself. The point that’s easy to miss is that anyone who won’t fuck you just because you’re a size 20 probably isn’t someone you’d want to fuck anyway.

  36. Pingback: The Republic of T.
  37. RM-

    Changing societal standards for women’s bodies will not “help” obesity. Nor will it stop anorexia. Eating disorders, as Piny, Jill, and a myriad of ED sufferers have pointed out during this discussion, are about self-destruction, punishment, and control. Even if all our beauty standards shifted overnight to a “rubenesque” ideal, women would *gasp* still have eating disorders. Because society would still emphasize the appearance of a woman’s body over her health.
    I understand that you are trying to engage in a discussion of the dangers of obesity. I think perhaps you are frustrated because no one else is. I would venture to suggest that’s because obesity is not the point of any one of the three related posts Jill and Piny have put up. Eating disorders are.
    Jill’s original post was refuting the idea, posited by Anthony Citrano, that anorexia is over-emphasized in the media because we as a culture fetishize overindulgence. Jill’s position was that anorexia, while it doesn’t have large fatality rates compared to other illnesses, causes a great deal of other psychological and physical damage for sufferers and is therefore quite worthy of attention. She also pointed out that we as a culture in fact fetishize self-denial, especially physical denial, in women. Piny’s follow-up, in an effort to distinguish anorexia the disease from “dieting” or “being thin,” pointed out that eating disorders in general (including, yes, over-eating) have the same roots as anorexia nervosa, regardless of whether someone looks healthy or falls within a “normal” BMI range. Because eating disorders are mental illnesses, not symptoms of appetite or lack thereof.
    So. Yes, obesity is a problem in America. But that’s not what the rest of us are talking about.

  38. Back in the day that a Rubenesque figure was the ideal, I could understand how people would strive for this, and perhaps go too far to obesity.

    Maybe you could understand it, but it’s not what happened.

    If we change that and say that the average body type is the ideal, how would that combat over-eating?

    Why are you talking about figuring out an ideal body type? Fetishizing an ideal female body of a particular size and shape helps nobody. Ever. It does not matter what the details and proportions of the fetishized figure are. It does not matter whether the Ideal is fat, thin, or average. It does not matter even a little bit. Ok?

    But how does it push people in the other direction?

    Because restricting and obsessive self-monitoring for looks rather than eating for pleasure and health is a sure road to yo-yo dieting, rebound weight gain, and ultimately giving up on a sucker’s game. This is news?

  39. But did they have an epidemic of people going the other way to extreme thinness (purposely, not due to poverty)?

    Yes, actually.

    As far as pushing people the other way: binging and purging cycles leaving people heavier. Also, many of the people who are obese aren’t that way because of eating disorders, but because of a culture that encourages sitting at a desk all day, driving to and from work, and eating pre-packaged foods with too many calories, too much saturated fat, salt, and sugar, and watching television or sitting in front of a computer for entertainment. Eating disorders are just part of the problem. How about you take on the entire Western culture?

  40. When we’re this obsessed with what we eat and what we don’t eat, how we look, whether we’re bad for caring about how we look, whether we’re lazy or unlucky, whether we’re devoting too much time or not enough time in remaking our bodies…we have no time, energy, or will left to turn the whole machine upside down.

    Health is an issue, but our discussion here is not so much about the weight of any particular individual. That’s why, for the purposes of this discussion, anorexia and obesity (and all the other facets of weight issues) are part of the same conundrum. It’s not how much you weigh, it’s how much time you spend thinking about how much you weigh.

    I myself spend far too much time thinking about how much I weigh, and that’s time I’m not getting back, and time I could have spent overthrowing the state.

  41. I really think that in this discussion “fat” has been conflated with “obese” and “thin” has been conflated with “anorexic.” Anorexia and obesity both have severe health risks associated with them. Fatness and thinness, not so much. Arguing about whether obesity or anorexia constitutes the greater health crisis is not going to address the standards of beauty and body image which cause women (both fat and thin) to hate themselves.

  42. Does anyone else find it odd that when some of us begin a discussion on anorexia, someone else hijacks it to a discussion about obesity? It’s about as logical as “Yeah? Well your mother wears combat boots!”

    For an interesting thought exercise, try not thinking of those two as opposites, or even parts of a continuum.

    And about the crap directed at women — which is actually more like what this is about, no? — about “health risks”: hey, we still outlive men. Lead by example, guys.

  43. I’ll admit that I’m clueless about what causes eating disorders because puting the effort into maintaining a stable weight was just a normal part of my life, like brushing my teeth or washing my hair.

    Statements like the following are oft repeated, and I’m sure most of you here agree:

    “Arguing about whether obesity or anorexia constitutes the greater health crisis is not going to address the standards of beauty and body image which cause women (both fat and thin) to hate themselves.”

    Ok, I’ll concede that. Is the solution to change these standards, or eliminate them? In either case, what specific steps (as opposed to sweeping general statements like “get men to stop seeing women as sex objects”) can be taken to do so?

  44. (as opposed to sweeping general statements like “get men to stop seeing women as sex objects”)

    Yeah, you know what? That’s a sweeping generalization only if you don’t live it, and it’s pretty clear you don’t live it.

    When you go to the supermarket, how many magazines are racked at the checkout line urging you to “lose 15 pounds in time for swimsuit season?” How many Betty Crocker “Cooking Healthy” or “Eating Light” booklets are aimed at you?

    I don’t personally like Oprah Winfrey, but you know what blows my mind about Oprah Winfrey? She’s one of the most successful women in television, but most of what I remember about her has to do with her freaking weight fluctuation. I can’t tell you Oprah’s net worth, but I can tell you that Oprah’s liquid protein diet led to one hell of a weight rebound, that she’s not a fan of low-carb dieting, and that one of her favorite snacks is unbuttered popcorn. The woman makes millions, but what do I know? I know what she eats and how often she exercises. Wanna say the same of Bill Gates? Donald Trump?

    Now go pick up a men’s magazine, I don’t even care which one. How many articles do you find therein that play on any potential anxiety you may have about what you look like?

    If men’s magazines were written like women’s magazines, here would be the teasers on the cover:

    Seven Ways to Make Her Scream: How to Ignite Her Passion and Get the Intimacy You Crave (Even When She Claims a Headache!)

    Male Pattern Baldness: A Cure on the Horizon? Our Medical Correspondent Investigates.

    Lose That Spare Tire in Time for Swimsuit Season: Our No-Deprivation, “I Can’t Believe it’s a Diet!” Diet

    But that’s not what you get, is it? No, you get all kinds of BS headlines about how this or that female celebrity is secretly dying to fuck a guy just like you. And to prove it, she’s right there on the cover half-naked. You see any half-naked men on the cover of Cosmo? Noooo, it’s always a half-naked GIRL on the cover of Cosmo. And I hate to break this to you, but as a matter of fact that doesn’t mean all women are secretly Super-Hott Lipstick Lesbians. That girl’s on the cover to remind us that we’re not her and to tease us that maybe, if we only buy the magazine, we could be her, which we couldn’t, because the girl is expertly lit and made up and airbrushed and utterly unreal and also, if all that weren’t enough, usually fourteen years old.

    Men get wish-fulfillment from their magazines and from pop culture. Women get indefinitely delayed gratification: “Maybe after you lose 15 pounds. Maybe after you fix that ratty hair. Maybe after you try our new makeup palette for fall. Maybe if you get a Brazilian wax. Maybe . . . .”

  45. Raging Moderate:

    I think the appropriate question to ask is: WHY does that crap sell?

    And that will help get you to the bottom of the love/hate (but mostly hate) relationship that so many women have with their bodies. Being healthy, being at a good *moderate* weight for their body frame/type isn’t the actual issue for many, many women; being the unhealthy, overly thin body that is the ideal du jour and being obsessed with every morsal that goes in their mouth and every step of excercise they get IS the issue. For some reason, MOST women have their self worth all wrapped up in their *appearance* — NOT whether they are actually healthy, NOT whether their weight is stable and appropriate for their height/age, but how they LOOK.

    NOW do you see the difference between yourself and many of the women out there?!?

    Oh, and as for getting them to stop buying that crap? How about you ease up on women who have gained a few pounds between the time they were 20 and the age they are now? Crimeny!! I wasn’t even a totally grown human WOMAN at age twenty — my hips broadened after I’d been in college for a few years and y’know what? It wasn’t the crappy, Residence Hall Dining Center food; it wasn’t being a relatively poor student living on mac-n’cheese and Ramen noodles, because it WASN’T FAT. It was BONE STRUCTURE. And too many, many women are convinced that they too can get into those size 0 (which is actually an industry size **4**, BTW) jeans if they just diet and excercise enough, which is bullshit — great steaming piles of it. Bone structure plays a BIG factor in your (medically) “ideal” body weight, something that most women (and ALL diet articles) fail to take into account.

    You want women to stop buying those idiotic magazines? START by paying attention to women’s accomplishments that DON’T begin and end with how thin and pretty they are. Compliment them on being good at whatever it is they do, and DON’T let them shrug the compliment aside they way so many people do. Contradict people who ARE a healthy weight who sigh and complain about being too fat. STOP complimenting people on having lost weight (since it’s a non-issue for you, I assume you don’t do that anyway, but this is a general list), especially loads of it, unless you KNOW that they were trying to do so for healthy reasons.

    Treat women the same way you’d treat men for appearance AND accomplishments.

    /rant

  46. Lauren,

    The problem:

    “For some reason, MOST women have their self worth all wrapped up in their *appearance* — NOT whether they are actually healthy, NOT whether their weight is stable and appropriate for their height/age, but how they LOOK.”

    The solution:

    “Treat women the same way you’d treat men for appearance AND accomplishments.”

    No offense intended, but this is kinda one of those “general sweeping statements” I mentioned earlier. After reading Ilyka’s post #47, it seems this was an awkward choice of words, as what I was trying to say would not have angered anyone had I expressed it properly.

    Let me try it this way:

    Problem: air pollution.

    Solution: burn less oil (“general sweeping statment” of intent)

    Action: research and develop hydrogen powered cars (plan to achieve solution).

    Regarding the problem of women’s skewed perception of what defines their self-worth, do you (or anyone else here) have a plan of action to achieve the solution you stated above? If you were to be elected president in ’08 (it could happen), what would you do?

    I am not attempting to be confrontational. I’m just seeking a concrete plan of action, as I can’t think of one (it’s my nature). If you’ve already had this discussion here and come up with realistic plans, I apologize for asking an old question. I’m new here, so please indulge me.

  47. P.S.

    ” those size 0 (which is actually an industry size **4**, BTW) jeans”

    I think this might support Anthony’s argument more than yours.

    You’re a size 14 and you wish you were a size 10? No need to excercise more or eat less. Presto! You’re now a size 10.

    Is there another interpretation of this that I am missing (and I’m certainly willing to concede there is)?

  48. Some of the models are like negative sizes is what I thought. Many of them are very ill, because the sketal sizes aren’t really natural at all. What is the thin ideal is impossible even for the naturally slender.

  49. Raging Moderate:

    Read my WHOLE post, please. I gave several concrete examples above my “sweeping statement”. (SIGH!!!) That so-called sweeping generalization was a *summary* of the above paragraph, and the “simple” suggestion, which requires some self-examination of and thought by the individual. My apologies for signaling that with “In conclusion…” — I rather thought that was self explanatory.

    As for the whole “sizing” of clothing issue — women’s clothing sizes are NOT standardized except in “the industry”, meaning the pattern industry. And even then, it varies slightly from company to company depending on how much wearing ease that particular company decides to put into their patterns. I take a 14 in some ready to wear, a 16 in other and most patterns (adjusting for a D cup bust), and an 18 in Vogue patterns, since they tend to cut clothing a little more fitted. So, which size am I?

    Want a smaller size? You end up paying big bucks — it’s called vanity sizing, sweetheart. A study was actually done a while back that showed that people will pay more to wear a smaller size tag. So companies that make expensive clothing use their own sizing, while companies that make cheaper clothing don’t bother to convert from pattern sizes. But this is not something that is generally known to the public unless they shop a wide range of stores. Sizing is, in fact, *bullshit*, but is used all the damn time to describe women’s shapes and sizes.

    Now how about making some suggestions on how to reverse the trend of women hating their own bodies yourself? Since you seem to know which ones are not helpful due to being “sweeping generalizations”?

    P.S. I, as much as I admire her, am not LaurEN. I am LaurIE, from an entirely different part of the country, and an entirely different background. Please, folks — read the damn signifiers a little more carefully. This isn’t the first time this has occured. While I’m flattered, I’m fairly certain that Ms. Lauren has no wish to be confused with me.

  50. They push that crap because it sells. Do you have any suggestions as to how to get women to stop buying those magazines?

    Feminism worked for me.

  51. Laurie, sorry about the name mix-up. T’was an honest mistake.

    “You want women to stop buying those idiotic magazines? START by paying attention to women’s accomplishments that DON’T begin and end with how thin and pretty they are. Compliment them on being good at whatever it is they do, and DON’T let them shrug the compliment aside they way so many people do. Contradict people who ARE a healthy weight who sigh and complain about being too fat. STOP complimenting people on having lost weight (since it’s a non-issue for you, I assume you don’t do that anyway, but this is a general list), especially loads of it, unless you KNOW that they were trying to do so for healthy reasons.”

    Souds good, but how do you get people to go about changing their behavior in this fashion? That’s what I mean by a plan of action (to reduce deaths due to car accidents, we should reduce the speed limit) vs statements of intention (to reduce deaths due to car accidents, we should get people to drive slower). As I asked above, if you were President, what would you do to encourage the behavior that is the solution to this problem?

    “Now how about making some suggestions on how to reverse the trend of women hating their own bodies yourself? Since you seem to know which ones are not helpful due to being “sweeping generalizations?”

    I admit that I have no ideas. But I also admit that I don’t understand the psychology involved in eating disorders. As many of you here seem to understand that psychology, I figured you’d be in a much better position to suggest policies which would help discourage it.

    “You end up paying big bucks — it’s called vanity sizing, sweetheart.”

    Ah, I get it now. Kinda like how dry-cleaners and hairdressers charge higher prices for women than they do for men, right Honeybunny?

  52. Raging Moderate:

    Apology accepted — you aren’t the only one, and so that was a kind of generalized rant. However, I maintain that people need to *slow down* and actually *see* who wrote something before they respond. Sometimes that makes a difference in your response. Shouldn’t, but sometimes does. 🙂 And I do very much admire Lauren, and don’t want her to feel put upon when someone actually meant me. Maybe I need to change my web name. I just feel it’s a trifle late for that move… (Hmmmm — maybe Fabric Geek…)

    — Sounds good, but how do you get people to go about changing their behavior in this fashion?

    You change the behavior you *can* change — your OWN. You point out the negative behavior (or its reinforcement) in other people when you encounter it, and you encourage them to change, by telling them why it’s important. You treat young women and girls the SAME WAY you would treat boys and young men, i.e., compliment them on their accomplishments as well as on their appearance. (Hey, nothing wrong with telling the nephews they look nice in their new holiday garb, right? 🙂 It’s just that young men hear a lot more than “you’re so handsome!” on a regular basis, and a lot of young women *only* hear “you’re so pretty” or even worse, “you’d be so pretty if you’d just….”) You encourage girls/young women to take the hard classes, to challenge their minds, and you support them when they do. You encourage them to take pride and joy in what their bodies can *do*, physically, as opposed to how they *look*. (Example: as much as I enjoyed ballet myself when I took it in college, the aesthetic makes me shudder. Dancing skeletons. I’d think long and hard about enrolling a daughter of mine in ballet.) You point out how the popular media shows women of only one main body type — variations on very thin, generally with larger breasts — and compare that to the wide variety of body types that actually occur. You point out that the “fat chick” (or even the “slightly bigger gal”) is usually comic relief, not any sort of main character. God forbid a love interest! You notice and point out that women in print ads are very often photo retouched to make them *more* like the ideal, since even the “ideal” model isn’t the ideal any more and gets touching up and sometimes even RE-PORPORTIONING via Photoshop, etc. Heck, a recent client of mine refuses to shop at Victoria’s Secret even though she likes their bras because their models are (in her words) “skeletal”. Every little bit helps.

    Because you know what? You CAN’T change other people’s behaviors directly — that is the *first* thing you learn in any sort of therapy. Or psych class. This is why we still have speeders and people who run red lights, even with traffic laws that make a great deal of sense for preventing accidents. People who are inclined to follow the rules do; those who aren’t, don’t. So — you can’t change THEIR behavior, but you can change your own, and how you interact with others. You can point out their behaviors and suggest alternatives. The President can mandate laws, but s/he has a very hard time changing attitudes. (Although the first feminist thing I’d do as President is ressurect the damned ERA! At least it would get people in general talking about women’s rights again. And then I’d turn my attention to environmental protection, but that’s a whole different rant.)

    Hey, I’ve got it! Warning labels on women’s mags, the same way they put them on cigarette packs! 🙂 ‘Cause that’s worked so well. *rolls eyes* Maybe mandate one MORE thing for teachers to have to talk about in school that isn’t actually an academic subject. I do have to admit, though, I feel that health class really SHOULD cover healthy eating habits and why excessive dieting (as well as overeating/not excercising) is bad for you, and why we need to be very careful about comparing ourselves to the so-called “ideal” prevalent in the media today. But all of this has to start really, really early. There are 9 and 10 year old girls — healthy girls, not overweight ones — who are obssessing over their weight these days and putting themselves on diets. And that is just wrong.

    I’m sorry, RM — you are not going to get a comprehensive plan for changing the fabric of society from anyone on a blog. This is the web equivelent of a conversation in a coffee house, not a professional planning group. If you need more suggestions than what I’ve offered, I really suggest getting some basic feminist texts** that deal with women’s body image issues and reading them. And then think about it. A lot. And see what *you* personally can come up with to help combat the general state of dispair many women feel when thinking about their (perfectly normal, in many cases) bodies. Only when we all do this consciously will there start to be any change. This kind of societal shift HAS to be a grass roots kind of movement.

    OK — I need to get off the computer now. I hope these suggestions (and the ones above, in my other post) give you a place to start at least thinking about this stuff and seeing the roots of this issue. I’m glad you don’t have any body image issues — really, I am. I have fewer than what seems to be average, myself. But that just makes you the right person to help other women who DO have these issues.

    ** Can anyone suggest some good feminist texts on body image? Seriously — I only had like, ONE women’s studies class, and it dealt with women in ancient Greek literature. Good class, but not terribly relevent to the topic at hand.

  53. WARNING — Completely off topic:

    Can anyone point me to a tutorial on how to utilize the block quotes, italics, etc? Or explain them via personal e-mail? I’m feeling really technologically challenged on that front, and would prefer to make my posts easier to read when I quote others.

    Thanks!

  54. I’m going to make a “sweeping statement”.

    I know men’s and women’s brains are wired differently (I’ve studied neuroscience), but it really sounds like Raging Moderate is an emotional austistic who doesn’t WANT to get it.

    How much more specific can “STOP doing something” get?

    “STOP complimenting people on having lost weight.”

    This really seems like a plan of action – albeit refraining from action instead of taking it (if you just MUST qualify it with a linguistic microscope) – to me.

    “COMPLIMENT women [sic] on being good at whatever it is they do”

    Leaving aside the fact that Laurie has left room for individual choice in the “whatever it is they do” section of the suggested imperative (attempting, perhaps, to bypass the other common rant that “women always want to tell men what to do” – I will not go off on the damned if you do/don’t conundrum here),

    HOW HARD CAN THIS BE?

    One verb (read: ACTION word) per sentence. It’s NOT freaking rocket science.

    And I am NOT being sarcastic. I’m really sick of this.

  55. ** Can anyone suggest some good feminist texts on body image? Seriously — I only had like, ONE women’s studies class, and it dealt with women in ancient Greek literature. Good class, but not terribly relevent to the topic at hand.

    Off the top of my head (some of these aren’t Feminist Texts on Body Image so much as women talking self-perception in a mutilating world, but they’re all pertinent and all excellent reads):

    The Body Project, by Joan Jacobs Brumberg

    The Beauty Myth, by Naomi Wolf

    Body Outlaws, edited by Ophira Edut

    Genderqueer, edited by Riki Wilchins and Joan Nestle

    Cunt, by Inga Muscio

    Junglee Girl, by Ginu Kamani (short stories, but still highly recommended).

    My One Night Stand With Cancer, by Tania Katan

    Skin, by Dorothy Allison

    Black Looks, by Bell Hooks

    The Black Notebooks, by Toi Dericotte

    The Empire Strikes Back: A Post-Transsexual Manifesto, by Sandy Stone (this is an essay by a transwoman about medicalization of transsexuality; it touches on a great many of the same themes re: archetypes and life in a body that’s been turned into a symbol).

    And I found this list via google.

    And though I haven’t read this, it looks really interesting. I may have to pay off my library fines.

  56. Laurie,

    Thanks for taking the time to respond yet again. I like the health class idea. Trying to re-educate the next generations sounds like the way to go (it’s hard to teach an old dog new tricks).

    littlem:

    “HOW HARD CAN THIS BE?”

    Apparently very hard. Is there some progress being made on this issue that I’m unaware of? Everyone here seems to think that things are getting worse (me too).

    “One verb (read: ACTION word) per sentence. It’s NOT freaking rocket science.

    And I am NOT being sarcastic. I’m really sick of this.”

    Huh? Is this a criticism of my grammar?

  57. Raging Moderate seems really obsessed with the idea that fat chicks got that way by lying around eating cheesecake and stuffing themselves.

    There are 3500 calories in a pound. All it takes to gain about 10 pounds a year is to eat 100 calories more a day than you burn. This is equivalent to the number of calories in a cup of skim milk or a couple of pieces of fruit. So, you get a new job that leaves you a little less active than you were before but you eat the same, and that 100 calories a day adds up to 700 calories a week, a pound every 5 weeks. Hardly enough to notice, particularly if you’re susceptible to retaining water on a monthly basis.

    But, by God, you better not get fat in this society. Because no one will want you then, and we all know that getting yourself a man is what’s important. And you need to hold onto him as well.

    Here’s a little on the “ideal” body being nothing like the medical ideal: for the film “Devil In A Blue Dress,” which was set in the 40s, Jennifer Beals put on something like 20 or 30 pounds so that she had period-appropriate soft curves. By doing so, she attained a healthy level of body fat, since her previous level of body fat had been dangerously low. She felt great, she felt solid and grounded. She would have preferred to remain at the higher weight, but she also wanted to work again, and she knew she would have to once again become dangerously thin so that she could fit the Hollywood ideal.

  58. RM obviously still doesn’t get littlem’s comments, either.

    No there was no criticism of your grammar, RM. There was however pointing out that several particular, quite distinct and simple actions had been recommended and you had swept them aside as “sweeping generalisations”.

    And you didn’t get it at all. Might I offer for your consideration the possibility that when you perceive simple action statements as sweeping generalisations this actually indicates a failure on your part to adequately reflect on what people’s words mean?

  59. tigtog said:

    “several particular, quite distinct and simple actions had been recommended and you had swept them aside as “sweeping generalisations”.

    Here are some those recommendations:

    “Combatting anorexia, denial and hatred of appetites, and the obsessive attention to female appearance are all good places to start.”

    “proper weight and eating habits should be characterized by biological health and psychological self-respect, not inordinate social norms.”

    “The solution for both men and women is to change the eating culture”

    “the best way to stay away from obsessive and cultivate stability is to gently but firmly nudge oneself away from unrealistic expectations when they occur”

    “The point is to get people to stop thinking no one will ever love them if they don’t fit the “ideal.”

    “Fetishizing an ideal female body of a particular size and shape helps nobody”

    “It’s not how much you weigh, it’s how much time you spend thinking about how much you weigh.”

    “address the standards of beauty and body image which cause women (both fat and thin) to hate themselves”

    “For some reason, MOST women have their self worth all wrapped up in their *appearance* — NOT whether they are actually healthy, NOT whether their weight is stable and appropriate for their height/age, but how they LOOK.”

    “You want women to stop buying those idiotic magazines? START by paying attention to women’s accomplishments that DON’T begin and end with how thin and pretty they are. Compliment them on being good at whatever it is they do, and DON’T let them shrug the compliment aside they way so many people do. Contradict people who ARE a healthy weight who sigh and complain about being too fat. STOP complimenting people on having lost weight (since it’s a non-issue for you, I assume you don’t do that anyway, but this is a general list), especially loads of it, unless you KNOW that they were trying to do so for healthy reasons.

    Treat women the same way you’d treat men for appearance AND accomplishments.”

    “But, by God, you better not get fat in this society. Because no one will want you then, and we all know that getting yourself a man is what’s important. And you need to hold onto him as well.”

    I agree with all these statements. Getting people to change their attitudes and behavior is the way to make progress on this issue. But the question I’m asking is what steps should be taken in order to bring about this change in attitudes and behavior (what is the carrot and the stick, if you will)?

    Identifying the problem is a good first step. But of what use is it if we don’t follow up by developing policies that will correct the problem we’ve identified?

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