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You Heard It Here First

New law school ratings are out (pdf). Well, not exactly out, but leaked from U.S. News & World Report. Good on NYU for tying with Columbia for #4. And for Stanford for displacing Harvard as #2. I suspect Harvard’s decline has something to do with their admittance of Ben “vaginas and brown people (and brown people with vaginas!) really scare me” Shapiro, but that’s strictly speculative.

Otherwise, I think law school rankings are pretty silly. Law school is hard wherever you go. The professors are a mix of good and bad wherever you go. You’re learning the same basic things wherever you go. The difference, of course, is that if you get into one of the top schools, you’re pretty much set for a job after graduation. We hear that a lot here: “Don’t stress. Everyone who graduates from NYU gets a job, and it’ll be a very good job.” Which is kind of nice, because it makes the whole atmosphere less competitive — you don’t feel like the person sitting next to you is trying to “beat” you grade-wise — and everyone is fairly hard-working anyway, so it doesn’t become an excuse for sloth.

The bad thing, of course, is that “elite” schools still generally serve the more elite in society. I can afford to go to law school because my parents paid for my undergraduate education, and so I didn’t have any outstanding loans when I applied to grad school. I could, of course, have gone on to law school even if I had acrued undergraduate loans — but I’ll be graduating from NYU Law nearly $200,000 in debt. I can’t imagine taking that on if I already had an additional $200,000 in outstanding loans from undergrad.

Elite law schools also tend to get most of their students from elite undergraduate institutions — the people I know here come almost exclusively from highly-regarded private undergraduate institutions, or top state schools. And those top undergraduate institutions, in turn, get most of their students from highly-regarded private and public high schools. That isn’t to say that kids from not-so-great schools never get in to college, but it’s a lot harder from a kid coming from, say, inner-city Kansas City where some of the schools are so bad that many out-of-state colleges won’t even recognize them, than it is for someone coming from, say, Andover Academy, where most of the graduates go on to college — and mostly elite colleges, at that. And while places like Andover offer lots of scholarships, that hardly evens the playing field.

We like to think that all is created equal in education, and if you just work hard enough you can achieve anything. But that just isn’t the case. I look around the room in law school — I’m in class right now — and I see three African-American people. I see that the vast majority of the room is white. I see that when we go on interviews with law firms, it’s a lot easier to find common ground with someone who looks like you and who shares your experience, and you’re more likely to get hired and promoted by someone who feels that they “connect” with you and can relate to you — one reason why it’s a little tougher, I think, for women breaking into firms, and much tougher for people of color.

The cards are really stacked against low-income people trying to go to law school. And we’re blind if we ignore the fact that race and income are strongly correlated. The problems start early in education, and don’t stop even after graduate school has been completed. And as a fairly privileged white girl, I don’t see the half of it.

Anyway, this all has very little to do with the ratings themselves. Point is, it confers a lot of benefit on me to go to an elite school that is congratulated by a magazine written expressly for the elite classes that go to these schools. This benefit is recycled through generations of wealth, and continues to marginalize those who have been historically oppressed and underrepresented. It doesn’t take much more than a cursory glance around a law school classroom, or a law firm, to see how this plays out.

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13 thoughts on You Heard It Here First

  1. Holy mother of God… I know what my payments are on $25,000 worth of #16-rated law school loans. Are they trying to force people into the private sector?

  2. That isn’t to say that kids from not-so-great schools never get in to college, but it’s a lot harder from a kid coming from, say, inner-city Kansas City where some of the schools are so bad that many out-of-state colleges won’t even recognize them…

    I actually don’t think that’s true. In my personal experience (your mileage may vary), colleges love kids with good grades from bad schools for diversity reasons. I’d say the biggest problem is that those kids usually aren’t encouraged to apply or to excel. As a freshman at Georgetown who was the valedictorian of her extremely crappy giant urban high school, I was routinely told by my counselors that I shouldn’t even bother applying to any good schools, that I should settle for the state schools, and that I was never going to get into any good schools. Georgetown, Duke, and GW accepted me, and Harvard wait-listed me. So much for that brilliant advice.

  3. The difference, of course, is that if you get into one of the top schools, you’re pretty much set for a job after graduation.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Okay, sorry. Things must have changed since the mid 90s. Plus, I hear NYU has a kick-ass placement office, something we were definitely not blessed with at Michigan back then. Then, they were so used to being file clerks from the 80s boom that they blamed you when you couldn’t find a job, rather than give you guidance on how to be more aggressive.

    Oh, but I’m not bitter.

    I look around the room in law school — I’m in class right now — and I see three African-American people. I see that the vast majority of the room is white.

    Ye gods. Michigan was way more diverse than that, albeit still majority white. They did a lot of recruiting of students from Detroit. The faculty was a different story.

  4. Holy mother of God… I know what my payments are on $25,000 worth of #16-rated law school loans. Are they trying to force people into the private sector?

    Basically, yes. Another bitch about law school: They treat public interest work as a cute little thing that you do your first summer, before you get a “real” job in a firm.

    To be fair to NYU, though, one of the reasons that I wanted to go here was because of their loan forgiveness program, which negates a lot of your loans if you do public interest work and get paid less than some set salary. That helps make public interest jobs more viable options.

    Okay, sorry. Things must have changed since the mid 90s. Plus, I hear NYU has a kick-ass placement office, something we were definitely not blessed with at Michigan back then

    Yeah, I think it’s a totally different ballgame now. 96% of NYU grads have a job at the time of graduation, and 99% are employed within 9 months of graduation. Not too shabby.

    Ye gods. Michigan was way more diverse than that, albeit still majority white. They did a lot of recruiting of students from Detroit. The faculty was a different story.

    On paper, NYU is one of the most diverse schools around — they claim that 25% of the student population is made up of people of color. I guess I take their word for it, but I don’t really see that in my classes. Of course, NYU also has a big LLM program, which is made up of a lot of foreign students. That might factor heavily into their race calculations.

  5. Woohoo! My school (Temple) went up 5 places, 63 to 58. I suppose that’s a good thing.

    I’m reminded of a joke, though. What do you call someone that graduated bottom of the class at med school? “Doctor.” Same thing with the person that graduates bottom of the class at Yale. Are they going to be a better lawyer than the top student at Georgia State (ranked 97th)? Hard to say. Unless you’re trying to get into the creme de la creme de les law firms, I don’t think most people will care where the degree came from if you do your job well.

  6. Erin: You might as well try to teach a Northeastern sportswriter that there are baseball teams other than the Red Sox or Yankees. Although I think that an Emory degree might get a preference in the ATL.

  7. It’s not just law-firm jobs that these rankings matter for; they also play a role in judicial clerkships and government positions.

    I do know that my degree has opened a lot of doors for me that would be shut if I went to a non-local, much-lesser-ranked school. Would my education have been the same? Maybe.

  8. norbizness: Tell me about it. I live in Philly.

    zuzu: You’re right, I overlooked the government route. I guess it’s the adage of it’s not what you know, it’s who you screw… er, know.

  9. The rankings do make way too big of a difference. If you aren’t in the top tier, as well as the top of your class, then you can pretty much forget about Big Law. But I think there is one caveat–location.

    If you go to a second-tier law school in the region where you want to practice then you have a good chance of getting a good job. I went to school at Iowa, which is a decent school (#22), but I moved here to San Francisco where people simply aren’t aware of Iowa. People from lesser ranked schools, like Hastings or USF have just as good, if not a better, chance of getting hired at good firms in San Francisco. The San Francisco firms are filled with Hastings and USF grads. And the firms actively recruit at those schools. I think Iowa had two Bay Area firms come on campus–and those were both in Silicon Valley (yuck). Law firms are very geographically oriented. The only exception applies to the very top schools, like NYU. The Big Firms will take grads from the top schools, even if the schools are 3000 miles away.

  10. Holy mother of God… I know what my payments are on $25,000 worth of #16-rated law school loans. Are they trying to force people into the private sector?

    Yes. The whole damn thing is a scam. You get suckered into a top school for the prestige and job opportunities only to find yourself drowning in debt and the only viable lifeboat is the firm salary, with the accompanying 11-15 hour/day working lifestyle.

    I’m fortunate that Northwestern gave me a pretty generous scholarship, so government work and other lesser-paying jobs are more of an option when I graduate.

  11. Plus, I hear NYU has a kick-ass placement office, something we were definitely not blessed with at Michigan back then.

    Zuzu,

    We still aren’t, unless things have improved significantly since I graduated in 2004. Unless you wanna go to big firm in a big city, you’re basically on your own.

  12. And we’re blind if we ignore the fact that race and income are strongly correlated.

    As long as race means black or latino, and not any of the following: chinese, japanese, indian, arab.

  13. There’s a big difference between colleges in undergrad curricula. I went to NYU undergrad and met several transfer students during my junior and senior years. They transferred from inferior colleges and were drowning in the NYU coursework. Can’t there be similar differences between law schools?

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