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Burqa Ban

From Steve Gilliard, apparently the Dutch are considering banning the burqa, the niqab and other Muslim veils that cover the face.

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) – If the Netherlands becomes the first European country to ban the burqa and other Muslim face veils this month, Hope says she’ll resort to wearing a surgical mask to dress in accordance with her religious beliefs.

“I’ll wear one of those things they wore during the SARS epidemic if I have to,” said the Dutch-born Muslim, one of about 50 women in the Netherlands who wear the head-to-toe burqa or the niqab, a face veil that conceals everything but the eyes.

“I’m very practical,” the 22-year-old added.

Last December, parliament voted to forbid women from wearing the burqa or any Muslim face coverings in public, justifying the move in part as a security measure.

The cabinet is awaiting the results of a study into the legality of such a ban under European human rights laws, before making its final decision. The results are expected in the second half of this month.

50 women. 50 women wear face coverings in the entire country, and there’s an effort to ban their clothing.

I’m with Steve on this one: this is the kind of thing that would never fly here, because of the First Amendment. There are anti-mask laws on the books, but those are really targeted at the Klan and bank robbers. Steve is very vocal about the racism in Europe, something that’s not acknowledged by the Europeans — particularly those who see themselves as tolerant but haven’t dealt with their colonial past. He is also an avid fan of Manchester United, and a lot of the examples he gives of overt racism come from football, such as fans shouting racial slurs at black and brown players. You know, the kind of thing that would cause a riot here.

Another layer of the story, as pointed out by some of Steve’s commenters who live in the Netherlands, is that the politician who’s driving this effort, Geert Wilders, described by Reuters as a “populist,” is actually of the right-wing, anti-immigrant Le Pen kind of populist. He also, apparently, hasn’t had the world’s best record on women’s issues, so many Dutch are a bit suspicious when he says stuff like this:

“This is an enormous victory for traditional Dutch decency,” said Geert Wilders, the populist member of parliament who first proposed the burqa ban, after hearing parliament had backed it.

“The burqa is hostile to women, and medieval. For a woman to walk around on the streets completely covered is an insult to everyone who believes in equal rights.”

Wilders also tried to justify the ban by appealing to fear:

Wilders, who lives under heavy guard after death threats for his criticism of radical Islam, argues a ban on the burqa will support moderate Muslims and boost their wider integration, in addition to removing a security risk.

“It is not acceptable for people to completely cover themselves on the street. It threatens public order and security. Plus it is a terrifying sight and only increases the cleft between natives and foreigners,” he wrote in his Web-log.

I sure as hell don’t like the burqa, but I don’t see the point in a ban targeted at women who wear them. Muslims in the Netherlands already feel marginalized; this is only going to give them further grounds for feeling persecuted, and will do even more to increase the cleft between natives and foreigners (as, undoubtedly, will continuing to refer to them as “foreigners” when they’ve lived in the Netherlands for generations). Whereas, human nature being what it is, if you don’t make a big deal of it, and in the meantime fully integrate Muslims into society, the burqas will probably go away on their own.

The much-debated “headscarf ban” in France was designed to address the plight of young Muslim girls who were being forced to take the veil by making any display of any religious article forbidden in the public schools. It applies across the board, for everything from crucifixes to yarmulkes to hijab, so it provides cover for girls who don’t want to wear the veil (but, unfortunately, puts girls who do in a bad position and hasn’t worked as effectively as had been hoped).

But more importantly, the French ban applied only to public schools, not to society at large. The Dutch ban is neither universal nor limited. It’s one thing to pull your daughter out of the public schools when she can wear a veil on her own time, but the effect of banning the burqa and the niqab is likely to be the further oppression of these women. If, as the reasoning goes, the burqa is a symbol of their oppression, what makes Wilders think that the people oppressing them — the men in their lives — will allow them to go out in public with their faces uncovered? More likely, they’ll be kept in purdah instead, not allowed to leave the house.

It’s unquestionably a little freaky to see a woman in a free society wearing a burqa — my subway stop is next to an elementary school, and I quite often see a woman in a burqa dropping her kids off in the morning. I guess that she’s a recent immigrant, as there are many in my neighborhood, but she’s the only one in her group wearing a burqa (the other women I see her with wear salwar kameez, with the occasional hijab). But as distasteful as the whole thing is, I wouldn’t dream of advocating a ban on her wearing a burqa.

Why? Well, one thing Steve missed in his analysis is that this proposed ban is just another way to oppress these women, by turning them into criminals for doing what they probably have little choice to do, given their situation. Several of his commenters, who support the ban, brought up footbinding and female genital mutilation as examples of religious or cultural practices that we do not tolerate even under the idea of multiculturalism. But here’s the thing: with footbinding and FGM, it’s not the girls who are so mutilated who are held accountable for the crime, it’s the people who do the mutilating. The Dutch ban puts the onus on the women themselves to change their oppressive manner of dress and leaves those who presumably are forcing them to wear the burqa unpunished.


21 thoughts on Burqa Ban

  1. if you don’t make a big deal of it, and in the meantime fully integrate Muslims into society, the burqas will probably go away on their own.

    Oh, you mean that’s all they have to do? Hmm, I wonder why they all missed the obvious? BTW, how exactly does the Netherlands fully integrate Muslims into society?

    This is a troubling conundrum for Europe. They’ve put themselves between a rock and a hard place. They’ve imported these Muslims to at first do scut work, then when the scut work ran out their liberal elites were very generous with refugee claims, and the welfare rolls surged.

    The best route for social peace would be to create employment opportunities for the Muslims but the tax and social schemes are a HUGE impediment to job creation. With jobs being scarce, what other policy tools are handy? Well, first a few ground rules to appease liberal sensitivities. 1.) Fully respect Islam; 2.) Fully respect non-Dutch cultures as being equal to Dutch culture; 3.) Don’t restrict refugee claims because that would be racist.

    So, what’s top be done about integrating Muslims into the European fabric? Crickets chirping . . .hello? . . .anyone here? . .

    If you tie the hands of policy makers then Europe is screwed. Muslim birthrates are far higher than those of native Europeans. The Europeans who have fewer children prepare their children better for employment in a technological society. Native European populations have higher mean IQs than do their Muslim sub-populations. Native Europeans don’t suffer the hit from inbreeding depression on cognitive abilities that afflicts Muslims who are raised in a culture heavily infused with cousin marriage. Muslim children are not as educationally prepared, due to family financial limitations, and the high birthrates are restricting upward mobility. Further, social unrest grows with each new generation because the children aren’t as willing to do the jobs of their parents, and want the more rewarding and glamorous jobs of the native Dutch, but the Muslim youth aren’t adequately prepared for those jobs.

    Untie the policy makers hands and what they should do is:
    1.) Clamp down on refugee claims;
    2.) Ban the practice of cousin marriage;
    3.) Ban the importation of spouses;
    4.) Incentivize Muslim emmigration. Offer generous monthly incentives, for up to 10 years, to Muslims on welfare to go back to their countries. Give them aid to start a business in their home country. This results in boosting the home country’s economy, and decreases the negative impact on Dutch society and puts a 10 year limit on the subsidy being paid to the person rather than a lifetime of subsidy for the person and their offspring;
    5.) Deport Imams who are working against the tide of integration;
    6.) Offer state support to Mosques who adopt a Dutch version of Islam;
    7.) Crack down on the epidemic of Muslim rape on native Dutch women;
    8.) Re-establish police control over Muslim sections of Amsterdam and Rotterdam;
    9.) Ban the Burqa as a sumbol of oppression. Zuzu’s commentary on this issue does raise very valid problems with the issue, but I don’t see a way to circumvent the issues, and closing your eyes to the problem and throwing a Hail Mary pass doesn’t count as a solution.

  2. closing your eyes to the problem and throwing a Hail Mary pass doesn’t count as a solution

    I write grants for Christian organizations. We refer to this part of the planning process as writing “and at this point, a miracle occurs”.

  3. The best route for social peace would be to create employment opportunities for the Muslims but the tax and social schemes are a HUGE impediment to job creation

    You’ve just solved one problem right there. Equal employment opportunities are one place to start; I don’t see what the tax and social schemes have to do with any of it, because young Dutch people get jobs despite them. Not referring to people who’ve been in your country for generations as “foreigners” is another. Not passing stupid laws targeting the most vulnerable members of their community is another.

    I’m no fan of religion, and I understand why much of Europe looks askance at it, but they would do very well to take a serious look at leaving religious communities pretty much the fuck alone (as I’m sure they do for ethnic-native Christian groups), because marginalization and persecution through laws specifically aimed at Muslims is going to make for more radicalization, not less. Wilders has it exactly backwards; his stated goal is to get the moderates on his side, but he’s going to find that the moderates will be pressured from the radical side and drift farther away as they circle the wagons.

  4. Wilders has it exactly backwards; his stated goal is to get the moderates on his side, but he’s going to find that the moderates will be pressured from the radical side and drift farther away as they circle the wagons.

    Well, yeah. I don’t think you can turn religious people into good citizens by making citizenship incompatible with devotion.

  5. zuzu:
    if you don’t make a big deal of it, and in the meantime fully integrate Muslims into society, the burqas will probably go away on their own.

    TangoMan:
    Oh, you mean that’s all they have to do? Hmm, I wonder why they all missed the obvious? BTW, how exactly does the Netherlands fully integrate Muslims into society?

    Humpty dumpty sat on a wall…

    Steve is very vocal about the racism in Europe, something that’s not acknowledged by the Europeans — particularly those who see themselves as tolerant but haven’t dealt with their colonial past.

    Define “having dealt with their colonial past”. Any word from Steve, has he stopped beating his GF already? Or does he at least acknowledge his problem? 😛

    But that said, there’s not much to be proud of being an European these days. When two men who beat their sister unconscious with iron bars because she refused to go with the arranged marriage, and getting off with probation by appealing to culture. And all this happens in your home country that you thought was opposed to to violence against women, there’s bound to be some self-loathing.

    I’m no fan of religion, and I understand why much of Europe looks askance at it, but they would do very well to take a serious look at leaving religious communities pretty much the fuck alone (as I’m sure they do for ethnic-native Christian groups)

    The thing with ethnic-native Christian groups is that they abide by the laws of the nation, and do not systematically oppress their members. If they do, it’s going to get dealt with. With ethnic-foreign, you get the Multiculturalist insanity that silences voices of reason and humanity.

    What if this “respect for religious community” is opposed to respect for inviduals? The voice of the religious community, when you talk about Muslims in Europe, is the voice of Imams. This demand for respecting towards community effectively silences and further oppresses the powerless inviduals in that community. This is what the Left is too cowardly to see. You get your progressive laurels by arguing for “respect” towards their community, and besides, no one threatens you with death.

  6. Define “having dealt with their colonial past”. Any word from Steve, has he stopped beating his GF already? Or does he at least acknowledge his problem? 😛

    Uh, WTF? How did we get from colonial racism to girlfriend-beating?

    “Dealt with” means “acknowledged their own brutality rather than refuse to talk about it.” The Dutch, for example, were rather harsh in their treatment of Indonesians, which, combined with the devastation following the eruption of Krakatoa, led to the rise of a far more radical strain of Islam there. The Belgians were even worse to their colonies.

    What if this “respect for religious community” is opposed to respect for inviduals? The voice of the religious community, when you talk about Muslims in Europe, is the voice of Imams. This demand for respecting towards community effectively silences and further oppresses the powerless inviduals in that community. This is what the Left is too cowardly to see. You get your progressive laurels by arguing for “respect” towards their community, and besides, no one threatens you with death.

    So, tell me: what does punishing powerless individuals by criminalizing their mode of dress accomplish vis-a-vis the imams? Does it provide fodder for their anger, or does it somehow magically dissipate it?

    People who are happy with their lot in life are not likely to turn to religious radicals for answers to their feelings of uncertainty and powerlessness (unless they live in the South, and are nursing resentments from Reconstruction). People who are considered foreigners and not given equal educational and employment opportunities, and in some cases not allowed to become full citizens of their adopted countries, are easy pickin’s for radical imams.

    You can also do immigrants the favor of not assuming that they all belong to the radial fringe of Islam and are just waiting for the opportunity to firebomb someone.

  7. zuzu:

    I actually favor allowing women to wear any clothing they please, including burqas and hijabs.Or bikinis. On basis of invidual liberty, but of course, I also think work needs to be done that women are not forced into it by the patriarchs (for the lack of better word) of the Islamic community. I should probably write about the times I agree with you, but I’m better when I’m angry (subjective).

    You can also do immigrants the favor of not assuming that they all belong to the radial fringe of Islam and are just waiting for the opportunity to firebomb someone.

    Quote, please.

    The GF -beating was criticism of Steve’s style, as in “admit you are racist”. I can do that, actually, but I also think pretty much everyone is racist, icluding progressive anti-racists, especially those who throw around the accusation most. It’s also not the first time Steve blames victim, he did that when a woman in Aruba got kidnapped and raped, too. That time it was “her stupidity”. With Europeans having embassies burned, it’s “their racism” (Steve tars all Europeans with the same brush: Isn’t that racist?). So I kind of think the moral high horse Steve rides on is an old nag with bad teeth.

    “Dealt with” means “acknowledged their own brutality rather than refuse to talk about it.” The Dutch, for example, were rather harsh in their treatment of Indonesians, which, combined with the devastation following the eruption of Krakatoa, led to the rise of a far more radical strain of Islam there. The Belgians were even worse to their colonies.

    Okey dokey. I just find it hard it hard to believe that negative aspects of Dutch/Belgian colonialism isn’t endlessly harped in the said countries’ schools. If I’m wrong, then they should of course discuss authentic, historical facts.. As for the part that having led to far more radical Islam, well, here I (morally) disagree: Indonesians chose to embrace radical Islam. They’re adults and adults are responsible for the choices they make.

    People who are considered foreigners and not given equal educational and employment opportunities

    Do you mean (presumed, but not certain) lack of affirmative action? EU would be most interested in a case of authentic discrimination in education or workplace (sure, you passed the exams to the engineering school, but we won’t let you in because we hate Muslims. Suuure.). Hell, these days it is more like “prove you did NOT discriminate on basis of race”, and minorities are quick to claim racism. Because it works very well.

    Oh well. I suppose we just have to agree to disagree on plenty of things.

  8. So, tell me: what does punishing powerless individuals by criminalizing their mode of dress accomplish vis-a-vis the imams? Does it provide fodder for their anger, or does it somehow magically dissipate it?

    What does magically dissipate the anger, then? It will disappear on itself ain’t cutting it. So far TangoMan has been the only one to offer practical, unvague alternatives.

  9. While I most certainly oppose cultural policy and legal imposition of the burqa and headscarfs or anything to that affect… I am equally opposed to policies and laws to the contrary. What business is it of the state to dictate what we wear? Regardless of our reasons for wearing it.

    No more masking sexist, racist, xenophobia with social-self-righteousness. These kinds of laws are not at all confronting the real issues.

  10. How is “provide equal educational and employment opportunities and full, non-second-class citizenship” vague and impractical? You note I don’t take your question about magical dissipation of anger seriously, because of course I was being *sarcastic* in my original question.

    I’d still like an answer, though: how is punishing the very women whose oppression is the stated reason for the burqa ban going to relieve their oppression? It’s just trading one form of oppression (you must wear this) for another (you must not wear this). Once again, women’s bodies are the battlegrounds for cultural struggles.

    Like I said in the post, punishing women who wear burqas is counterproductive, since the men who (presumably) are forcing them to wear them are not being pressured to change their behavior AND they now have a legitimate beef with the government for religious persecution. It would be like punishing women with bound feet while leaving the people binding their feet free to do as they pleased.

    By the way, leaving people alone does not entail allowing incitement to violence or activity in contravention of the laws of the home country, as long as any enforcement does not unfairly target one group or another. This proposed ban does not pass the universality test, but the French ban on religious symbols in school did. The New York Times recently ran a series on an imam in Brooklyn who’s being closely monitored by the NYPD because some of the people who attended his mosque were implicated in a plot to blow up some local landmarks. However, because teh NYPD’s anti-terrorism unit has worked very hard to work with the communities they’re monitoring (and has had much more success in recruiting, say, Arabic-speaking officers than has the FBI), the imam does not feel unduly singled out.

  11. How is “provide equal educational and employment opportunities and full, non-second-class citizenship” vague and impractical?

    I want to know precisely how equal educational and employment opportunities are denied. Full, non-second-class citizenship, to those who are legal citizens, sure (but no reason to give it to those who don’t pass whatever measures the society decides to hold for new immigrants). But how is the citizenship not full? How is it second-class? Leaving aside the burqa ban for a minute.And such ban could conceivably operate under security concerns not specifically directed at Muslims, or Muslim women, of all the unlikely suspects.

    Therefore, I want to hear how you would provide those things. No negatives (“not like Geert Wilders, for one”, how?)

    I’d still like an answer, though: how is punishing the very women whose oppression is the stated reason for the burqa ban going to relieve their oppression? It’s just trading one form of oppression (you must wear this) for another (you must not wear this).

    Yes, yes, I agree.Muslim women aren’t the problem, they should not be the target.

    This proposed ban does not pass the universality test, but the French ban on religious symbols in school did.

    Why not? Wilders asks that anyone shouldn’t cover themselves in public. A mask ban, essentially (such ban was discussed in Finland, not about Muslims at all but about violent, masked fringe in anti-globalization protests etc.). You’re probably jumping to conclusions correctly, but such ban wouldn’t be unheard of, you admit as much. But since the motive isn’t sufficiently Enlightened, as in opposition towards Ku Klux Klan, it’s teh bad. Motives do not matter, the content does. Still I tend to favor liberty over security (Ben Franklin had something to say about that one. I’m a huge history buff, and looking at what the U.S Founding Fathers had to say about democracy etc. I have to admit that those guys knew what they did.)

    The New York Times recently ran a series on an imam in Brooklyn

    … etc.

    Well, good to hear. A bit of humble pie in my part: maybe Europeans need to heed American advice on anti-terrorism.

    But, the amount, and probably the radicalization, of Muslims in Europe is far greater. Perhaps resources are too scarce for measures that make the Islamic leaders feel good. And some of them have openly and unapologetically declared war on the country they reside in, such as Mullah Krekar in Norway. Why doesn’t Norway take the guy seriously and kick him back to wherever he came from?

    .

  12. Tuomas,

    I want to know precisely how equal educational and employment opportunities are denied.

    As you well know, these opportunities aren’t denied. The thinking going on here is when a disparity is seen that is interpreted as evidence of de facto discrimination. The only remedy is to equalize outcomes. It is forbidden to look within the affected group to determine whether their are cultural and genetic chains that are the roots of the disparity, for that would be racist. Better to think that society is racist than even broach the possibility that you yourself are racist for even daring to think that the seeds of disparity are within the group.

    If you look at the sociological literature you see that there is more parental involvement in the lives of children raised in familes with 2 children than 6 children. The Dutch culture as it pertains to family is different than what is seen in Dutch-Morroccan families. The roles of the mother, father, sons, and daughters are on different vectors. When there is a 25%-50% chance that your mother and father are 1st cousins, then it is quite likely that the children are getting about 11 IQ points skimmed off the top. The list goes on. The upshot is that these things matter and they affect life outcomes, but people of good conscience prefer not to look at these issues and instead prefer to label all of society as racist for not insuring equal outcomes.

    The problem in the Netherlands is that the liberal elites are administering very compassionate asylum laws and the immigrants are coming despite there being little work for them.

    Here’s another suggestion – Deportation. The first category to go are recent arrivals, not those who have been in country for multiple generations. These people are not yet citizens and many of them are a drain on public finances. This is certain to rile up the wilting flowers of the Left, but as we see the Left is devoid of policy recommendations that don’t rely on miracles occurring. The deportation gives breathing room and likely also creates more job opportunities for those who were born in the Netherlands but were on welfare. At this point, start instituting the policies I mentioned above.

    An added benefit, is that the state finances improve and this money can be used to bolster gov’t policies that improve family life for Dutch citizens – ie. get the birth rate up to at least replacement level.

  13. Zuzu,

    The first link notes:

    Sadya Al-Arkat, a social activist, agreed that racism constituted a major obstacle to non-native women, particularly Muslims.

    “They are discriminated against for no reason other than being veiled, or because of their names, complexion and dark hair,” she told IOL. . . . . . . .

    The committee further struck deals with 16 municipalities nationwide to employ a number of non-native women.

    The last sentence should make Leftist social engineers jump for joy – the Dutch are on the road to American style reserved jobs for ethnic groups type of arrangements. The remainder of the article is simply boilerplate accusations of racism. We see that all the time from people of color who don’t get a job because they’re not the best qualified, though they do have qualifications to meet the minimum criteria. This is simply a tactic to insure equal outcomes.

    The 2nd link is about the mayor of Amsterdam advocating that freedom of speech be curtailed and that he is the best arbitor of the level of discourse that is permitted. This is the same thing as the cartoon issue – if Muslims are offended by the facts or issues or analysis, then STFU and don’t offend the sensitive Muslims.

    The 3rd link is the most interesting and wide ranging. In a nubmer of European countries, Muslims were brought in specifically as guest workers, not as future citizens.Then they didn’t want to leave. When they arbitrarily changed the terms of the bargain why is it incumbent upon the host country to accept the unilateral change in terms?

    Next, we get into the whole issue of cultural uniformity and change. It is wrong, so say Leftists and Muslims, to force the Muslims to change their cultural practices and assimilate into the host culture. What’s left unsaid, is that the host culture must change to accomodate the Muslims. Why’s that acceptable? Here too we see that the bargain was changed:

    From the 1960s to the 1980s, he says, Muslim immigrants weren’t seen as “Muslims,” but instead as “foreigners.” The argument then was “They should go back to their countries of origin, and if they stay they should be like us,” he explains. “But these second-generation immigrants began to say, ‘We are European and we want to be recognized as Muslims,’ not, as say Algerian or Moroccan.”

    What’s wrong with Europeans saying that they like European culture just the way it is and they don’t want to change it to suit Muslim sensitivity. The Muslims came to Europe voluntarily and if they want to make lives there then they should become just like Europeans.

  14. So, you’re recommending that white women start pumping out babies?

    The money that is freed up from having to support a dead weight segment of society – those immigrants on welfare who are deported – can be used to make the expense of childbirth and childcare less burdensome for parents. If you make the incentive for childbirth greater, at the margins, more parents wil take advantage of the incentive. Greater parental leave, smaller schools closer to parents places of employment, schools providing after school care, tax benefits for parents but not for singles, etc.

    The reason you need this is to keep the European social welfare scheme intact. The young need to pay the taxes to care for the elderly. The sticky point though, is that it’s not just a body count for the young people, where any old young person will do. The young people have to be able to generate enough economic wealth that can be taxed sufficiently to pay for the elder care. You’re not going to get that economic sophistication by importing young Muslims who’ve studied at Madrassas all their lives and aren’t really prepared for the sophisticated jobs of the 21st century European economy. Read this account of my co-bloggers time in a madrassa. Further, we’re dealing with IQ disparity between the populations. Add on cultural disparity which results in lowered standards of living and you start to see the outlines of the problem. Why do you think that the 800 million people in the Fertile Crescent produce less economic activity (excluding oil) than the people of Spain? A big reason is the cultural lessons and practices of these peoples. Transplant them into a European society, but allow them to hold to the same cultural practices, and why should you expect that the undreperforming problem will vanish?

  15. Zuzu,

    Please read this account in the NYT about Dr. Wafa Sultan. If you want to see the remarkable Al-Jeezara TV clip you can find it in my post on Islam’s Internal Debate. I have the links to two of her appearances and she is astounding to watch as she debates Muslim religious clerics and pulverizes them. Now, she like other critics of Islam, is facing death threats. I particularly liked her analysis:

    The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling.”

    She went on, “We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people.”

    She concluded, “Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them.”

    She is precisely the type of Muslim immigrant that the US and Europe should be welcoming. The downside though, is that by admitting such progressive people into our nations we’re depriving their home countries of a reformist element. That said, it’s better that we get the progressives and they keep the reactionaries, rather than vice versa.

  16. The money that is freed up from having to support a dead weight segment of society – those immigrants on welfare who are deported – can be used to make the expense of childbirth and childcare less burdensome for parents. If you make the incentive for childbirth greater, at the margins, more parents wil take advantage of the incentive. Greater parental leave, smaller schools closer to parents places of employment, schools providing after school care, tax benefits for parents but not for singles, etc.

    Western Europe already provides quite good support for parents. It could just be that as women get more economic freedom and education, they want fewer children. So offering additional incentives isn’t necessarily going to make them want more kids when they feel that their families are complete.

    Oh, and Jews have protested by killing people. Yitzhak Rabin was killed by a Jew. And Baruch Goldstein walked into a mosque during Friday prayers and shot it up, killing 30 people.

  17. The problem with banning burqas, or veiling of any kind, is that neither forcing women to veil nor forbidding women to veil allows for female autonomy or choice in her veiling. Many women do choose to veil, either for modesty or for personal expression. Read more here.

  18. TangoMan, FYI, the immigration to Northern Europe was originally of the humanitarian receiving refugees kind, not of the quest-worker kind. The amount of goalpost-moving (and of course, accusations of racism were, and are thrown at every turn) in this by Leftists has been staggering:

    1) They will be here only temporarily. I was surprised by the fact that most refugees were young men. Isn’t “War hurts children and women most” standard feminist and leftist thinking?

    2) Okay, they will stay, but we need them as workforce. As if unemployment wasn’t a big enough problem with the native population, and immigrants have even higher unemployment rates.

    3) The last one is that it would be racist and imperialist to expect the immigrants to contribute positively to society. Funny thing is that Leftist at the same time still claim immigrants are contributing positively!

    Basically most politicians in Europe have their heads up their asses, and dissent is stamped by laws banning certain political parties (such as Vlaams Blok in Belgium) and accusations of racism. Not looking good, but one must keep up hope.

    She is precisely the type of Muslim immigrant that the US and Europe should be welcoming. The downside though, is that by admitting such progressive people into our nations we’re depriving their home countries of a reformist element.

    Indeed! And zuzu, the problem with the Jew cases is that they are hardly systematic, and moderate Jews condemn them with no buts.The classic Palestinian “apology”, for example, follows the following path:

    1)Terrorism isn’t real Islam (It wasn’t one of us, the No True Scotsman defense.)

    2)Let’s also remember the evil occupation and the evil America. (blame the victim)

    3)We hope that Israel gives us what we want so these acts will stop and the West stops oppressing us (veiled threats, anyone?)

    They make my ears bleed.

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