White Boy Seeks to Own Brown Girl

117 thoughts on White Boy Seeks to Own Brown Girl

1. That guy’s stealing my material!

2. Some of these morons get a well deserved shock when they ‘import’ a Fillipina and find out she’s not as docile as they thought. I know one such woman who has dumped said moron and is running a nice little business.

3. Sounds like a dude with a “mail-order bride” mentality. That’s always creeped me out for some reason. I think there’s a difference between racial *preference* aka, who you find attractive or good-looking–vs. fetishizing a certain race and labeling your spouse based on that race.

   I married an Indian-American guy by chance, but I never would have dreamed of going to India just to “pick one out of the mix,” so to speak.

4. The responses to this made my day. Given the general view of women on Metafilter, I was really expecting a lot of answers along the lines of, “Well, you could try the Hot Indian Teen Brides agency, but the last one I bought from there wasn’t nearly as docile as I expected.” Writing off this guy as a lone creep may not explain the whole problem, but it’s a huge step in the right direction.

5. Yeah, the married, WASP owner of the company I work for singled me out at our Christmas Party two years ago to let me know about his preference for “all shades” of black women(I’m the only black person in the company). I was thoroughly unimpressed and site it as a primary reason why many black women have visions of Strom Thurmond when even sincere white men approach them. At our past Christmas party I actually had to threaten to hit him because he kept poking me to see if I was ticklish. The man is also married (to a Panamanian woman) with children but seems to step out quite a bit. I work with an Asian girl who was all but bragging about how Asian man were mad that white men were stealing all of their women, that she’d never really dated an Asian man and that she “got her white man!” So, it looks like Imperialism worked on her. I think my incredulous look and comment that the other guys we work with who have Asian wives (one has a mail order one) are men that no one else would want told her what I thought about her line of thinking.

6. I have a friend, a white woman, who fetishizes black men in this way. It started out as a preference and has morphed into something else entirely, to the point where she claims not to be attracted to white men at all (and since I’ve known her for 18 years, I know this is not true, or at least did not use to be true).

   She’s now engaged to a black guy who has a similar fetish for white women, so I suppose they’re removing a couple of fetishists from the dating pool.

7. Personally, I don’t fetishize anyone, but for some reason I’ve never found that many blonde/blue-eyed or redheaded guys to be that attractive. In reality, I am downright turned off by redheads unless they are majorly handsome. I don’t even know why, and I feel bad in a way.

8. This dude is in for an unpleasant surprise. “Hindu brides” are not all the same. They do not conform to their stereotypes very well. Plus, anyone who is a serious potential Hindu bride would not consider such a man in the first place. She would want a Hindu dude of a specific caste and subcaste so they could perpetuate ancient sexist and racist traditions.

9. If this guy were really interested in learning about Indian culture, he would have probably already done some studying, some research, and made some connections with Indian-American people or Indian immigrants or visiting Indian people here in the US, and would have learned more about Indian families and marriage customs. If he then had a reason to travel to India, he would make his connections by networking with his friends and acquaintances’ contacts in India. If that resulted in a marriage, fine and good. I know several couples who are in very happy marriages between Indian and Western people, and that is how their connections were made — on the basis of actual social or professional friendship and affection.

   But it sounds like he doesn’t know any Indian people, but just has some weird idea about Indian women. Creepy.

10. I find it odd that the guy seeks Hindu specifically, not Indian. So it’s not about race, and attraction to the said race (which wouldn’t be bad in itself). Is this guy a Hindu convert? Somehow I doubt it.

11. You do a nice job, Jill, of separating out our personal likes and preferences from broader issues of control and racism — it’s important to do that in this discussion.

    My first wife was half-Chinese/half-Filipino, so folks assumed I had “yellow fever.” My second and third wives were “Anglo” (both as WASPy as the day is long); my fourth is Afro-Colombian-Croatian. I don’t have a type, but I was sensitive to the charge that I was “colonizing” back in the day…

12. First, many Americans don’t realize how diverse India is as far as religion so they are probably thinking that Hindu and Indian are one in the same. Secondly, they have probably read something about Karma Sutra and assume that is what they are getting in the deal.

13. Hmm. Qusan, that’s probably it.

14. Hugo, btw, the link in your name is incorrect: It links to hugooboy.typepad.

15. Personally, I don’t fetishize anyone, but for some reason I’ve never found that many blonde/blue-eyed or redheaded guys to be that attractive. In reality, I am downright turned off by redheads unless they are majorly handsome. I don’t even know why, and I feel bad in a way.

    I think the problem is not the preferences themselves, but the unchallenged stereotypes to which they are linked. If you harbor no negative stereotypes about redheads, nor any fetishistic stereotypes about dark-haired guys, you’re not really insulting either group. I’m sure the redheaded guys can find women generous enough to see beyond their grotesque appearance.

16. This brings up two thought for me.

    First – what a scumbag. I think you’re absolutely dead-right in your interpretation. This guy is *not* someone who happens to just find a particular kind of person more attractive; he’s not looking for a person, but for an *object*. The object just happens to be a human being. It’s not just fetishizing (which I tent to interpret as a sexual obsession with particular physical characteristics), but objectification. He’s not a guy who wants to date Indian women because he finds Indian women attractive: he’s a guy who wants to *possess* an Indian woman: he doesn’t care about her personality, what she does, what she wants, what she believes. He just wants an Indian woman.

    My second comment on it is more personal: damn it, people like this guy makes real inter-cultural or inter-racial relationships harder. I’m a white Jewish guy, and my wife is Chinese. We met in grad school, while studying for prelims. I can’t tell you how often I’ve dealt with people who believe that because I’m married to a Chinese woman, I must be an asshole who wanted a docile Chinese wife. (Anyone who knows Jennifer knows that she’s anything *but* docile 🙂 She’s brilliant, strong willed, stubborn, and downright scary when someone tries to treat her like a stereotypical Chinese woman.) And as a final note on this subject, I said how often *I’ve* dealt with it deliberately – the dehumanization of Asian women by the people who’ve commented on our relationship always implies that they’d *never* say anything to her about it – in their eyes, she isn’t “real” enough to be worth talking to – it would be like talking to a dog: cute, but ultimately pointless. And that pisses me off more than anything.

    -MarkCC

17. I think my preference is irrational, honestly. And I’m sure if I had met a wonderful redhead who was everything I wanted in a husband, then I would have married him as eagerly as I did the Indian guy who was everything I wanted in a husband.

18. I see nothing wrong with preferences if there is no stereotypic bias behind it. If I find nearly translucent skin where you can seen veins unattractive, that is a preference. If red hair (all over the body) and freckles along with transluscent skin are unattractive, there is still no stereotype I can point to that discounts people who look like that. If I find pigmented skin and curvacious lips attractive (whether they be on black people, Asian people or white people with a drop somewhere) that is what I find appealing. But, I cannot see how anyone can just pick out somebody/anybody just because they come from a specific ethnic or racial group. It’s just like this new fixation with “Eastern European” women ala Donald Trump. They have a whole mail order bride business themselves. That is just wrong.

    The problem in America is that the gender role paradigm has shifted so insecure men are seeking women from any culture where they think women will look beyond their inadequacies or sexist demands. Black women have LONG been hearing that black men prefer white women because they are easier to control, don’t have an attitude and give head upon demand (don’t know if is true but that is what they say). Some Indian man at work, after I saw a clump of men of all races in the break room eating nicely prepared lunches that their wives made, told me which nationalities had the “best” wives” when I inquired how much it would cost for me to buy someone to make me “cute” lunches everday. Heck, every woman could use a “wife.” I was being sarcastic but you should have seen the expressions on their faces when I made their wives seem like maids and purchasable commodities. AND, BTW, I’ve never considered myself to be a feminist … only a aged, latch key kid who figured out how to be independent and take care of herself. I never “got” the roles and don’t understand why anybody who wants to eat cannot cook, anybody who wants a clean house can’t do it or hire somebody or anyone who wants to unclog a toilet cannot call a plumber or do it themselves.

19. I think the “young, beautiful” thing gives it away. This isn’t some Bollywood-musical-loving guy who just happens to think Indian women are the bomb. If so, he’d be asking, “how can I meet single Indian women?” just like any other single guy looking for love.

    He’s shopping for a product, a less powerful woman he can “rescue” or just plain dominate. Ugh.

20. What Siva said.

    What this white guy would end up with is a poor, desperate, Hindu woman without immediate family. Perfect to control, and that’s probably the point. I may not know much about Indian culture (mostly gleaned by interaction with scientific and medical colleagues), but my impression is that the majority are in the running for World’s Most Vigorous Matchmaking. The NRI(non-resident Indian)-read English-language news websites always seem to have links to personals and matchmaking services of great specificity. This white guy would not qualify in most matchmakers’ eyes (non-caste, non-Hindu, insufficient personal/familial information, etc).

21. I work with an Asian girl who was all but bragging about how Asian man were mad that white men were stealing all of their women

    Very well done short film on this subject.

    the dehumanization of Asian women by the people who’ve commented on our relationship always implies that they’d *never* say anything to her about it – in their eyes, she isn’t “real” enough to be worth talking to – it would be like talking to a dog: cute, but ultimately pointless. And that pisses me off more than anything.

    Truer words were never spoken. It doesn’t even matter if her family’s been in America for generations.

    This man has fetishized Indian/Hindu culture, and I would imagine is under the impression

    This is probably accurate. If he wanted to dispel that impression he could have elaborated on his remark. However, this fetishization of ideals, prejudices, preferences is a very common human practice that often has nothing to do with “racist, imperialist and sexist” motives. You see it, as Zuzu pointed out, with her friend, you see it with younger women who are out to prove their “anti-racist” and “anti-imperialist” bona fides by dating men of color. Of course, these women would never countenance the notion that they’re no different from this guy looking for a wife. Their fetishization of “being enlightened” is no different from his fetishization of “Hindu Women.” In both cases there is something beyond the partner that they seek which has higher value.

    On a related note, why is it that in 73% of Black-White couples it is the man that is Black? Why is it that 75% of White-Asian couples feature an Asian woman. For all of you social constructivists out there, why aren’t you harping about how racist Black women are for rarely marrying Asian men, and vice versa. This Black-Asian pairing is quite rare, yet it is Black women and Asian men who are disproportionately disadvantaged by the inter-racial mating game. It’s all in their attitude, right?

22. You see it, as Zuzu pointed out, with her friend, you see it with younger women who are out to prove their “anti-racist” and “anti-imperialist” bona fides by dating men of color. Of course, these women would never countenance the notion that they’re no different from this guy looking for a wife.

    …And of course, the fact that they say they’re not racist in the slightest means that they can’t possibly be racist.

23. On a related note, why is it that in 73% of Black-White couples it is the man that is Black? Why is it that 75% of White-Asian couples feature an Asian woman. For all of you social constructivists out there, why aren’t you harping about how racist Black women are for rarely marrying Asian men, and vice versa. This Black-Asian pairing is quite rare, yet it is Black women and Asian men who are disproportionately disadvantaged by the inter-racial mating game. It’s all in their attitude, right?

    It’s still going to be all about power. Even Black Panthers, for all those fists and talks about “the man” ended up with white or non-black women. It was all about women they thought could be controlled. They are still in a dick fight with white men who used to be able to kill them on sight for looking at white women. Asian men, in America, save Bruce Lee, have never had a visible presence as strong, sexual human beings. They have been viewed as eunuchs and NOBODY in wants them in Western society. In a country where top black male actors are making a killing at the box office by dressing up like strong, ass-kicking black women, you can be assured that the average insecure white man or already de-sexualized Asian man who is rejected by his own woman is not going to go out seeking a black woman or vice versa. Trust me.

    I am petite, quiet initially and, though in my 40s, get carded by people who could be my children. The people of other races who approach me don’t do so because they think I am a “Sapphire,” they do so because they think I am a black “valley girl” and, at first glance, look like I don’t know water is wet. It’s not in the attitude. It’s in who has the power.

24. We had an acquaintance some while back who “bought” a bride, not quite sight unseen, from the Phillipines. He justified it to himself as not bride-buying because the agency only provided the introduction, and then all other arrangements were between the couple. What he wanted was to have a live-in housekeeper with some sex on the side, and he couldn’t figure out for the life of him why the girl in question (she was 20 years younger than he was) wasn’t thrilled with the arrangement. She, for her part, came and got married, learned better English, got training as a telephone operator, and walked out. To this day the guy feels used, and can’t understand why his friends aren’t all on his side.

    He is after the poor and downtrodden of the world, being under the impression that those women will be so grateful for their “rescue” that they won’t expect him to treat them like human-beings. He seems to be working through the fetishes, having started with a poor American woman, then on to his first mail-order bride. Last I checked he was looking at less “Westernized” parts of the world for another purchased wife.

25. What’s with all the hatin’ on redheads? 😛

26. I whish his attitude was extreme but I fear it is not. Otherwise there would not be so many mail order bride web sites. He is part of a large group of American men who want a whore/domestic-slave/baby machine for a ‘wife’.

    On the other hand I find it a good sign that these slimes can not seem to find what they want in the U.S. any more. It least it seems they are having enough difficulty finding what they want that they are willing to go to the trouble to import a sufficiently submissive bride. I look forward to the day when the little wankers can’t find anyone to be their house salves and are left to whine about their problems to others of their ilk.

27. He is part of a large group of American men who want a whore/domestic-slave/baby machine for a ‘wife’.

    Which is to be expected. Didn’t Jesus promise us whore/domestic-slave/baby-machines if we’re good? I’m sure there’s something about it in the Constitution.

28. I think it would be interesting to know his reasons for choosing to want to be married to a Hindu woman. It’s not clear why he would be interested in that, and I think that is an important factor.

    For instance, I would be interested in marrying someone that was Hindu because I have been following Vaisnava philosophy for the last 13 years or so. I also tend to be attracted to women who are non-white, not because I think that I’m part of a more powerful class, but because I tend to be attracted to traits that are “less” ordinary. Since I’m a white guy in the middle of whitebread Midwest, less ordinary means non-white for me. I tend to be attracted to Asian and Latina women more, not because they are docile or traditional (I don’t really like either of those qualities) but because they are “different,” “unique” (to me), etc.

    It doesn’t sound like he is going to India just to find a Hindu woman to marry. Of course, the idea that he is going to India anyhowways and he might as well pick up a Hindu woman while he’s there sounds rather unusual. I’m really curious to know why he wants to marry a Hindu in particular. There are lots of Hindu women already in America, and plenty of women in India are not Hindu.

29. On a related note, why is it that in 73% of Black-White couples it is the man that is Black?

    It’s true that in the majority of black-white couples, the male partner is black and the female partner is white, but there’s an upward trend in black woman/white man couples. I’ve noticed more discussion of this among the black women I know or those whom I read, but that’s just an impression and I could be off-base there.

30. What’s with all the hatin’ on redheads? 😛

    Don’t worry, I have a total redhead fetish.

31. Uh, yeah. As a person of color, I’ve found that most of the American white men who consistently are “attracted” to women of “other” cultures, particularly those who are from homogenous environments, are outright rejects that white women don’t want or are gay and don’t want to admit it.

32. I recommend that every white person procure a traditional Indian-American SO, if only so they can get a tiny, tiny taste of what that good ol’-fashioned “lack of privilege” thing is. (Viz. my SO’s family: “what are you doing dating a WHITE girl?!”)

33. What’s with all the hatin’ on redheads?

    Redheads, or “gingers”, are the soulless ones. They must be destroyed.

34. Three redhead gals/lovers in my life. One ended up at the famous Chestnut Lodge mental hospital in Maryland; the other at the almost-as-famous Las Encinas hospital in Pasadena (professional home of Drew Pinsky.) Of course, they weren’t just redheads, but Scorpios too. That might explain it, but it was very entertaining for me.

35. Date a redhead, make beautiful orange-haired babies. Seriously. I’d kill for hair like my niece’s (my sister married a red headed man and he’s a doll).

36. It’s not in the attitude. It’s in who has the power.

    No. Asian men have more power than Black men. It’s not power – it’s biology. It’s perceptions of masculinity and femininity. On many biological criteria you see the rank ordering of Black, Hispanic, White, Asian. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any medical outcome which groups Black and Asian women closer than Black and White or White and Asian. For instance, look at dizygotic twin frequency ( per 1,000 births: Asian- 3.9; Caucasion – 7.9; and up to 49 for some African populations.) For men, testosterone levels varies across races. Why even Jared Diamond is interested in this issue and wrote in Nature about the ethnic differences in testis size.

    But the interesting thing to me is that those who are quick to call racism on issues are strangely silent on the “racism” of Black women not wanting to date Asian men. Why they’re not getting to know these men, they’re just judging them unfairly. Turnaround is also fair play and why not call out the Asian men for their “racism” in not finding Black women as generally appealing as other women. There is a lot of interracial dating and marriage going on and people are transcending social boundaries but the number of relationships where there is a Black woman and and Asian man are microscopic.

    that’s just an impression and I could be off-base there.

    Linnaeus, if you compare the 1990 to 2000 census, there isn’t much change.

    are outright rejects that white women don’t want or are gay and don’t want to admit it.

    Yeah? How about Black men who date outside their race? Does you logic apply there as well?

37. Hmm, I’m a redhead, a Scorpio, and a middle child. A triple threat! Actually, I have to betray my ginger race (yes, I saw that South Park episode too) by saying that I have never been attracted to redheaded men either, but I think that’s because they remind me of my brother and that’s just too weird. And if I did date a redhead, people probably would think he was my brother. Sorry for getting off topic.

    Back on topic, I think what makes it abundantly clear that this guy is not just expressing some aesthetic preference is that he posted the question in the first place. If it were just some “normal” preference for Indian women, he would just be meeting and dating them already, instead of travelling to India and bringing back a souvenir.

38. No. Asian men have more power than Black men. It’s not power – it’s biology. It’s perceptions of masculinity and femininity.

    Fine! I meant the same thing. Black men have more powerful genes. In Western culture, Asian men still aren’t all that attractive – sexually, physically (because so many are short) or otherwise. Bruce Lee – yes. Hop Sing – no. Black men got off of the first slave ship being a threat – no matter what there position was. Did anyone ever notice that the brutality of colonialism and imperialism seemed to be more severe the “darker” the people got? You didn’t see Africans and Arabs trailing through Nordic areas trying to wipe out people of a lesser hue. The reverse has almost always been the case. Despite the “what the heck” trend among black women to trying “Something New,” most would still prefer black men or white men with darker features.

39. I read some of this guy’s blog and it appears that he’s a teacher who is working in Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan. Considering his environment, and how we shouldn’t judge people whose perceptions are shaped by different environments (blah, blah, blah) maybe he is what the Kyrgyz consider an “enlightned chap” because at least he’s not engaging in the Kyrgyz tradition of Bride Kidnapping which I wrote about here.

40. (because so many are short)

    Good example. Let’s see if we can do a substitution in Jill’s analysis – It’s there any time the humanity of an entire group of people [Men] is diminished in order to focus on some perceived characteristic of that group. [Height]

    How many women prefer men shorter than they? Do they reject the short men after they get to know them or do they reject them at first sight?

41. Good example. Let’s see if we can do a substitution in Jill’s analysis – It’s there any time the humanity of an entire group of people [Men] is diminished in order to focus on some perceived characteristic of that group. [Height]

    Shortness or tallness isn’t a characteristic of all men. It’s not a “perceived” characteristic either — saying that short men are short is not the same thing as saying that Asian women are submissive (or whatever the bride-buyers’ euphemisms for “submissive” are.) I will say that at one time I thought I was only attracted to tall men, but a guy my height (5’5″) proved me wrong.

42. Random: Asian men are hot. I’m only 5 feet tall so it doesn’t matter if a guy is ‘only’ 5’6′ or whatever. Also, everyone wants a black man. *is projecting*

43. Raging Red — Whew. The firstborn redhead Scorpio women are the ones who always made me absolutely delirious.

44. Shortness or tallness isn’t a characteristic of all men.

    It’s not shortness or tallness, it’s height. Just as submissiveness isn’t a binary condition, neither is height. Both are scalar. There are women who are more submissive than other women just as there are men who are taller than other men. Both concepts are also subjective, in that what is submissive to one person is an outright turnoff to another, and what is tall to one person is not sufficiently tall to another.

    but a guy my height (5′5″) proved me wrong.

    That however is not addressing why women are activing on the perceived characteristics (height) and not dating men who are shorter than they. Really, what does height matter to the personal interactions of a man and a woman? If some guy wants a submissive woman and he’s castigated for acting on a faulty perception because he’s likely to be surprised by the fact that the woman’s submissiveness ain’t all that it’s cracked up to be, then why too cannot a woman be surprised that a man’s height really doesn’t matter so much when a relationship deepens? Why is one whacked misperception wrong but the other all right?

45. If some guy wants a submissive woman and he’s castigated for acting on a faulty perception because he’s likely to be surprised by the fact that the woman’s submissiveness ain’t all that it’s cracked up to be

    Is that why you think we’re castigating men who think that all Indian women are submissive? Because they’re less likely to make successful marriages?

46. Is that why you think we’re castigating men

    I don’t really care as to the why – I’m just asking those who are on moral high horses, what’s the difference here?

47. I don’t really care as to the why – I’m just asking those who are on moral high horses, what’s the difference here?

    Read the comments thread, because the why is the difference. It’s not the fact of physical preferences, which most people have in one direction or another; it’s the stereotypes that people attach to them. This guy’s attraction to Indian women is based on unsupported generalizations about Indian women. It’s particularly odious in his case, because the stereotype that so attracts him amounts to, “less likely to object when mistreated.” The woman in your example simply prefers to date taller men. A real analogy would be a woman who rejected short men out of hand because she believed that short men in general were shiftless, or stupid, or incapable of deep feeling–or, to make it really stick, a woman who went after tall men because she believed it easier to control them.

48. Pingback: What if it turns out the stereotype you married was a human being after all? at Pandagon

49. If you have preferences of attraction, rather than fetishes, you’re likely to find yourself attracted to all kinds of people (upon getting to know them), that don’t meet all your preferences. If you have a fetish, you’ll go right by those people without even blinking.

    I have strong personal preferences for tall, slender, dark-haired, light-skinned, blue-eyed guys. I married a tall, not slender, light-haired, brown-eyed guy.

    Plus I have a hellacious crush on my teacher, who’s two inches shorter than I am – though he does have blue eyes. Makes me very attentive in class. (No comments please, the crush is for fantasy only).

    I certainly haven’t been running over to Scotland, looking for all those studly tall blue-eyed dudes so I can haul one home. It’s a bizarre idea – except that some people seem to find it perfectly acceptable when discussing a guy hunting for a submissive wife.

50. On a related note, why is it that in 73% of Black-White couples it is the man that is Black?

    Perhaps because many black women in this country have a history of negative experiences with white men.

    Why is it that 75% of White-Asian couples feature an Asian woman

    This is based on things that a few Asian acquaintances have told me, so I may very well be wrong. Although most Asian families will “allow” their daughters to marry white men, sons are discouraged from marrying white women. In a patrilineal system, a daugther’s outmarriage doesn’t affect the family line in the same way that a son’s would. I don’t know if this attitude is as prevalent among Asian-Americans, but that might explain part of the imbalance.

51. This guy’s attraction to Indian women is based on unsupported generalizations about Indian women. It’s particularly odious in his case, because the stereotype that so attracts him amounts to, “less likely to object when mistreated.”

    Here’s a similar construction:

    Women’s attraction to tall men is based on unsupported generalizations about tall men. It’s particularly odious in his case, because the stereotype that so attracts her amounts to, “more likely to feel protected” or whatever when she’s with a tall man.

    Perhaps because many black women in this country have a history of negative experiences with white men.

    And what’s the reason for Asian men?

52. # Mary Says:
    March 8th, 2006 at 4:05 pm

    I recommend that every white person procure a traditional Indian-American SO, if only so they can get a tiny, tiny taste of what that good ol’-fashioned “lack of privilege” thing is. (Viz. my SO’s family: “what are you doing dating a WHITE girl?!”)

    That sucks! I guess once again I’m the anomaly: My husband’s family accepted me from day one, whereas my (white) family had the harder time adjusting to our “mixed” relationship. Although admittedly, my family’s objection had more to do with religion than race.

53. Women’s attraction to tall men is based on unsupported generalizations about tall men. It’s particularly odious in his case, because the stereotype that so attracts her amounts to, “more likely to feel protected” or whatever when she’s with a tall man.

    I still think this analogy is flawed, because racism is far more likely to be pernicious than discrimination based on height. (Yes, I know there are studies talking about how the taller person gets the job, but it’s still qualitatively different.)

54. You know, it might be illuminating for us to describe the lovers we’ve had that have been NOT our “type,” yet who have kindled our hearts.

    If you were to ask me (a blonde-haired white woman) to describe my “type” I would probably say “Tall dark handsome, lean, maybe a little swarthy.”

    But in fact I am married to a man I adore who is (while not a red-head) an auburn-haired pale-skinned rather overweight man. And (without either braggin or exposing myself as a total slut) I have had boyfriends who could be characterized as: a blonde-haired surfer boy; a neurotic New York Jew, la arge imposing black man, a pale waspy Ivy Leaguer, a skinny little redneck , a slick Hollywood type, or, in one case, a guy whose ancestry was Lebanese/Irish.

    Gosh. No Asian men. Hmm……No, I’m too old to experiment anymore.

    [[[Lordy. Memories….memories….!]]]]]

    My point is — you can go into something thinking you like dark curly hair, or you hate pale transluscent skin, or whatever, but in the long run its the connection with the HUMAN BEING that really matters.

    Mmmm. The Lebanese/Irish guy……

55. Women’s attraction to tall men is based on unsupported generalizations about tall men. It’s particularly odious in his case, because the stereotype that so attracts her amounts to, “more likely to feel protected” or whatever when she’s with a tall man.

    What’s your point, exactly? This is the sort of thing that feminists are against. Firstly, that women need to feel protected, and secondly that size and/or strength makes a man worthy.

    And what’s the reason for Asian men?

    I really couldn’t say, but I would imagine that it is due to a combination of factors.

56. Women’s attraction to tall men is based on unsupported generalizations about tall men. It’s particularly odious in his case, because the stereotype that so attracts her amounts to, “more likely to feel protected” or whatever when she’s with a tall man.

    Yes, like I said, that’s a great analogy! If that were the situation we were discussing, that would also be wrong. Since this is not an ad from a woman seeking a tall man because short men ain’t got no reason to live, and since stereotypes about tall men are nowhere near as pervasive as stereotypes about Indian women, it’s kinda…irrelevant.

    Also, no. While a fetishistic stereotype is also bad, “less likely to complain about mistreatment” is especially odious because it means this guy is looking for a woman to exploit at best and abuse at worst.

57. What’s your point, exactly?

    Ok, some teacher in Kyrgyzstan makes a comment about looking for a Hindu woman to marry. Pretenious Leftists jump all over him and speculate that he’s on a quest for a “submissive woman.” Fine, that’s what Leftists do, we can’t change their spots.

    Their objection is that he has a vision that defines Hindu women and he is acting on this vision in order to seek a wife and he’s completely ignoring the individuality of all the Hindu women. He’s seeking some archtype and not an individual.

    What I’m saying is that this is a common human behavior and woman are just as guilty of committing this stereotyping as this guy. I chose the example of height.

    20/20 recruited men tall and short and put them in lineups behind a two-way mirror, then invited groups of women to look at the lineup and choose a date. The women were told various positive things about the shorter men — the men were described as having interesting careers, impressive educational pedigrees or a lot of money. The women always chose the tall men.

    Women are judging these short men based on their own internal visions of what these short men represent. These short men are a class of people, just like Hindu women are a class of people. Further, the women associate certain feelings to tall men:

    Women definitely favored taller males, the majority endorsing the statement that being with a tall man made them feel more feminine. Most women indicated they wouldn’t date a shorter man. Almost a third insisted the man be taller than the woman and another third would date a man of their own height but no shorter.

    The Kyrgyz teacher is acting on his preferences, for whatever reason. Let’s say, as commenters here have speculated, that he’s looking for a submissive woman. He’s associating submissiveness with Hindu women. This is no different than women associating undesirability, lessened masculinity, or what have you with men who are shorter than the woman.

    If the teacher does find himself a Hindu woman who is indeed submissive, then their personal interaction which satisfies his submissive itch, is no different than what a woman with a tall man would feel about her own femininity being enhanced by their height disparity If he finds a Hindu woman who isn’t submissive then that itch isn’t satisfied but he may stay with her, just like a woman who stays with a man shorter than she who doesn’t generate the same feelings within her that a taller man would.

    The problem is that holier than thou people are unwilling to look at their own behavior while they’re condeming this guy for doing exactly what they’re doing. They’re criticizing him so that they can reassure themselves that they’re better than that poor schlub.

58. What I’m saying is that this is a common human behavior and woman are just as guilty of committing this stereotyping as this guy.

    Yes, and? This would also be wrong. What the fuck is your point, anyway? Do the women here hate short men? Do the women here accept uncritically the idea that a sexy man is a hypermasculine man?

59. And what’s the reason for Asian men?

    The average black woman, not including me who lives in Silicon Valley, does not interact with Asian men – let alone be in a position to be asked out by one. Men still do most of the initiating – regardless of race. (Now, Arthel Neville (the daughters of one of the Neville Brothers is (I think still) married to a Japanese guy … and she initiated the first contact).

    I will say that at one place I used to work, there was a much younger (at least 12 years and he had no clue until I told him) Korean guy that I had a very playful flirtation with (he had a girlfriend so there was no real potential). But what really impacted me more than being entertained, was that I got very harsh reactions from two people who saw this guy and I having fun: 1) an Asian girl who was only into white guys 2) a young black guy who wouldn’t date black women who were educationally and financially at the same level – in fact, he married a religious, recent immigrant from Ethiopia about whom he bragged that he was more like her father (he was only 26 at the time – and short and said he could never date a taller woman).

60. Yes, and? This would also be wrong

    Yet what I see is people going all whoop-ass on this guy and there is a strange silence on other fronts. Do you see anyone being criticized for thinking that Japanese people usually like to eat sushi (except for that Japanese guy who really hates it but loves Haggis) or that Finnish people are usually reserved?

    None of this is wrong because anyone who tries to go through life without using heuristics would be a very dysfunctional and ineffective person. We all need to think in such shorthand. Trying to eliminate all heuristic thinking is a crazy notion. Now, what would be helpful is to correct inaccurate heuristics so that they become more helpful to us. That’s fine.

    Pretty much every person in this comment thread has been making an unfounded judgement about this guy for we don’t know that he’s looking for a submissive woman. That wasn’t stated in his comment. So, absent information everyone is judging him, just as they accuse him of forming an ill-formed opinion of Hindu women.

61. Did anyone ever notice that the brutality of colonialism and imperialism seemed to be more severe the “darker” the people got?
    You didn’t see Africans and Arabs trailing through Nordic areas trying to wipe out people of a lesser hue. The reverse has almost always been the case.

    Perhaps you shouldn’t embrace Arabs as “fellow victims” so easily. I am also curious about “the reverse has almost always been the case,” since you talk specifically about Nordic (Iceland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden) areas. Are you prepared to give examples of people from the said areas wiping out darker people in massive scale? Or do you think all whites are responsible for the relatively few whites who profited from slavery, including those in predominately white countries who themselves have suffered from Imperialism and have had absolutely nothing to do with slave trade (such as Finland)?

    Don’t get me wrong. Swedes are filthy ex-imperialists and besides I hate them for the ice hockey final. Grr. (Just kidding if any Swede happens to be reading, as always.)

62. I’m going to steal with reckless abandon from some comments at Pandagon. Suppose that this guy has recently converted to Hinduism and wants to marry a woman of his faith. Going to India and treating it like it’s a grocery store of Hindus is still wrong.

    Also, I’m not sure what else you’re going to conclude when a many says he wants a hot, young Hindu woman to bear his babies. He may not have stated a preference for a submissive woman, but it’s there. Mail order bride services and the like are full of the kind of language this guy uses. Go read The Bad Feminist’s commentary on this point.

63. If some girl told me that she didn’t date short men because they were pansies, I’d tell her she was being prejudiced and making false assumptions. Again, the “feelings” that women had about tall men–feeling more feminine, more protected–are hardly feminist values, so why do you keep daring us to defend them?

    As for why I think the guy is creepy….It sounds like he’s trying to buy a car or a horse, not like he’s looking for a loving relationship. And judging from his blog, he is a “Leftist”, so yes, a liberal man is getting called out on his sexism. One of his entries features a fantasy porn video of Michelle Malkin deep-throating three guys. So yeah, I think he’s creepy.

64. piny:

    Yes, and? This would also be wrong. What the fuck is your point, anyway? Do the women here hate short men? Do the women here accept uncritically the idea that a sexy man is a hypermasculine man?

    Who mentioned hypermasculinity? Tallness was mentioned by TangoMan.

    TangoMan:

    The problem is that holier than thou people are unwilling to look at their own behavior while they’re condeming this guy for doing exactly what they’re doing. They’re criticizing him so that they can reassure themselves that they’re better than that poor schlub.

    … (looks in the mirror) Damn it, you shouldn’t say that out aloud! It would be interesting if every man and woman would be completely open about their preferences. I’m guessing that many, many, people would have preferences that the Left would find objectionable. Statistics seem to confirm that.

65. Having a preference that shows possible mental problems is different from having a neutral preference that you can easily toss off when the right guy comes along. The whole submissiveness thing strikes me as men needing to control women, and also the man feeling insecure. If you need your woman to be less than you, what message are you sending? It’s about weak men, who may become wife beaters, because a desire to control often leads to violence, but why am I even talking to you? You clearly can’t understad the basic concept of scale- that there’s a huge difference between me thinking darker skin is hotter(although I’ll go out with pale skin guys- it’s not a requirement) and requiring that a man be less than me so I can control him, and not only that but stereotyping a whole group of men as controllable and weak, even though I know fuck all about them.

66. If you need your woman to be less than you, what message are you sending?

    Is it acceptable to desire a mate who’s “more” than you?

67. Shannon W:

    Feh. Who here has expressed a desire for submissive women? In fact, it seems to me that the women here are the biggest purveyors of the “men want submissive wives so they can control them” -theory. In reality men may be damn “superficial” about appearence etc. (hence “She needs to be intelligent, speak some English, beautiful, young.”) but what personality they prefer varies wildly. Me, I go for extroverted and outgoing types, balancing my own personality. Youth, intelligence and beauty are all a bonus, why should I prefer otherwise?

68. Is it acceptable to desire a mate who’s “more” than you?

    Precisely here lies the hypocrisy: Women seem to prefer men who are at least their equal in height, success etc. (I haven’t heard many woman making claim that she prefers men who are shorter. But as usual, her preferences are not the problem, but usually it’s something like “but short men are not confident”*) But if men actually prefer women who are less in those things (isn’t everyone happy now?), they are controlling and have mental problems (!). Perhaps men just prefer women who prefer them.

    * I’m 6′, btw.

69. Who mentioned hypermasculinity? Tallness was mentioned by TangoMan.

    Yeah, and hypermasculinity:

    Women definitely favored taller males, the majority endorsing the statement that being with a tall man made them feel more feminine. Most women indicated they wouldn’t date a shorter man. Almost a third insisted the man be taller than the woman and another third would date a man of their own height but no shorter.

    Yet what I see is people going all whoop-ass on this guy and there is a strange silence on other fronts. Do you see anyone being criticized for thinking that Japanese people usually like to eat sushi (except for that Japanese guy who really hates it but loves Haggis) or that Finnish people are usually reserved?

    Yes, no point in criticizing any behavior if you can make a reductio ad absurdum argument about it.

    Actually, there have been comments complaining about Asian fetishes and Asian stereotypes. They’ve been specific to women in this thread probably because the OP was specific to women. Crack open Monolid sometime, or check out Little.Yellow.Different, and you’ll see complaints about fetishizing Asian men, too. Find me someone who fetishizes Finnish people, and I’ll complain about that, too.

    Is it acceptable to desire a mate who’s “more” than you?

    I think it’s perfectly acceptable to seek out a mate who possesses qualities you admire. This is a little different, though; this would mean seeking out someone from x group or with x unrelated characteristic because you believe that those people possess that admirable quality.

    Speaking as someone who has been approached both as a lesser creature (a freak who’s less likely to complain about mistreatment or reject any sexual attention whatever its source or its terms) and as a higher being (a third-gender two-spirit shaman with a special connection to humanity’s higher purpose), not necessarily, no. Look at the example TangoMan used of an interaction that liberals supposedly would not complain about: white women seeking out black men because sleeping with them would make them seem more progressive. Some groups, in fact, are primarily shoved into “noble” stereotypes rather than ugly or subservient ones; sometimes, that difference is gendered within any given minority group. Samurai vs. submissive Asian girl, for example.

    It’s possible to be used for all kinds of purposes, and shoved into all kinds of roles; the question is whether or not you’re being embraced as a human being or sought out as a symbol of something entirely different. And a “positive” stereotype can still be extremely confining if you don’t happen to fit into it. Either way, it’s extremely unpleasant to be in a romantic situation with someone and realize that they aren’t really attracted to you at all.

70. Precisely here lies the hypocrisy: Women seem to prefer men who are at least their equal in height, success etc. (I haven’t heard many woman making claim that she prefers men who are shorter. But as usual, her preferences are not the problem, but usually it’s something like “but short men are not confident”*) But if men actually prefer women who are less in those things (isn’t everyone happy now?), they are controlling and have mental problems (!). Perhaps men just prefer women who prefer them.

    What hypocrisy? Let’s turn that “logic” around, shall we? Some men prefer submissive women; ergo, you, Tuomas, have lost your moral standing to complain about anyone else’s behavior.

71. That’s just fine with me, because I don’t complain about people’s preferences. I note them. In other words, everyone loses the moral standing on complaining about anyone else’s behavior. Deal?

72. Pretenious Leftists jump all over him and speculate that he’s on a quest for a “submissive woman.” Fine, that’s what Leftists do,

    Actually, no one’s jumping on the schoolteacher; he is blissfully unaware of this conversation, dreaming of his Hindu girl.

    We’re having a discussion about an issue. The schoolteacher’s letter sparked a discussion. Who the fuck are you to police the discussion?

    Fine, that’s what Leftists do

    And what kind of “ist” are you, TangoMan? Because you’re doing some jumping and specualtion yourself

73. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to seek out a mate who possesses qualities you admire.

    OK. But is it acceptable to seek out a mate who is MORE than you in some important way?

    For example, I might valorize intelligence in a potential mate. Is it acceptable for me to deliberately seek out someone who is smarter than I am, with the deliberate intention of having them be the main “thinker” in the relationship?

    Or I might valorize a desire to care for children. Is it cool to look for a mate who just plain likes hanging out with kids more than I do?

    Some people are “naturally” leaders (whether because of upbringing or genetics, let’s not get into it). If I’m a shy and retiring person who would be happier in a supportive role, can I seek out a leader?

74. That’s just fine with me, because I don’t complain about people’s preferences. I note them. In other words, everyone loses the moral standing on complaining about anyone else’s behavior. Deal?

    No deal. When I see OMG TRANNYBOIII!IS! TEH CUTE!!! I fucking well get to complain. If you want, you can complain, too.

75. No deal. When I see OMG TRANNYBOIII!IS! TEH CUTE!!! I fucking well get to complain. If you want, you can complain, too.

    Well, LOL and all, but read again: That’s not the deal I am proposing.

76. For example, I might valorize intelligence in a potential mate. Is it acceptable for me to deliberately seek out someone who is smarter than I am, with the deliberate intention of having them be the main “thinker” in the relationship?

    Well, if your thinking is “I want to marry a smart woman and everyone knows Asian women are smart (look at their SAT scores!), so I’m only going to date Asian women in pursuit for my perfect mate,” no, that’s not acceptable.

77. Well, if your thinking is “I want to marry a smart woman and everyone knows Asian women are smart (look at their SAT scores!), so I’m only going to date Asian women in pursuit for my perfect mate,” no, that’s not acceptable.

    Why not? Asian women are smart. Assuming that by “smart” I mean someone with a high IQ, then the population of Asian women has an IQ distribution somewhat to the right of some other groups. Would it not be logical for me to look for “smart” in the smart aisle of the supermarket?

78. Robert, positive half-assed stereotypes aren’t really better than negative half-assed stereotypes.

79. Piny, btw, the text you supplied about hypermasculinity did not say anything about hypermasculinity, instead it was about women feeling more feminine with tall men. Tall men=hypermasculine does not follow from the text, so y’all are making your own assumptions public by reading it as such. And the point about the deal I was proposing was that people need to get off the moral high horse* whenever they criticize others for their preferences, not “you don’t have the right to complain”. Complain all you want.

    * Yes, it is somewhat pot calling kettle black that I should say this.

80. Robert, positive half-assed stereotypes aren’t really better than negative half-assed stereotypes.

    OK. But where stereotypes have a basis in empirical truth, the case seems to be being made that an enlightened person is one who acts with deliberate stupidity.

81. But where stereotypes have a basis in empirical truth

    Having a ‘basis in empirical truth’ is not the same thing as being empirically true.

82. Having a ‘basis in empirical truth’ is not the same thing as being empirically true.

    That doesn’t matter. Examine the heuristics that you use to live your everyday life. Let’s say you see a 10 year old child, who appears to be abandoned, crying, yelling, and frantic on the sidewalk. Your inclination is to step forward and to help that child. However someone acted before you so now you move on down the sidewalk. Around the corner you come across a ragged, filthy, disheveled, irratic homeless man who is raving and hysterical about losing his pet mouse. Do you have the same inclination to help that homeless person, considering that just yesterday you read about some violent crime committed by a homeless person against a bleeding heart who wanted to help them?

    Are you treating these people as individuals and disgarding all of your heuristics? You’re making a slew of assumptions about the kid, about crime, about homelessness, about the man, about people who are raving irratics, etc. You don’t know that the kid won’t kick you in the shins and you don’t know that the homeless man might be eternally grateful for the kindness you offer.

    Most people don’t walk through life assessing atomized information. They process that information through heuristics. That’s exactly what Jeese Jackson meant when he said “There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery — then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

83. the case seems to be being made that an enlightened person is one who acts with deliberate stupidity.

    Directly to the point. Well said.

84. Most people don’t walk through life assessing atomized information. They process that information through heuristics. That’s exactly what Jeese Jackson meant when he said “There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery — then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

    Wow. Just when you think it isn’t possible to feel offended on Jesse Jackson’s behalf anymore.

    Will you stop with the reductio ad absurdums, already? Everyone makes assumptions to one degree or another, yes. That wasn’t disputed. These assumptions fit into a spectrum of dehumanizing/respectful and sensible/senseless, with your inhuman strawliberal “ideal” at one far end and Saartjie Baartman on the other. There are many shades of gray between. That doesn’t mean that it’s hypocritical, inconsistent, or impossible to address damaging assumptions when they occur.

85. That doesn’t mean that it’s hypocritical, inconsistent, or impossible to address damaging assumptions when they occur.

    Is that what we’re doing? Tell me then, what assumption is implicit in the text of the Kyrgyz teacher? I don’t see anything that he has written that is based on a “damaging assumption.” Spell it out for me – quote me his text and connect an implicit “damaging assumption” to that text.

    Oh, maybe you mean all of the “damaging assumptions” that people have been piling onto his comment so that they can have a basis for climbing on their moral high horses. That’s what you mean by “damaging assumptions,” right?

    In comment #60 I wrote: “Now, what would be helpful is to correct inaccurate heuristics so that they become more helpful to us. That’s fine.” So I don’t have a problem with revising “damaging assumptions” but I’m lost on the details of exactly which “damaging assumption” we’re trying to remedy in this dialogue.

86. I gotta go with the TangoMan. If I saw an ad that said “Submissive Asian woman needed for foot massage, making me sandwiches, occasional sex, and otherwise shutting up and sitting quietly in her corner”, I’d join in the “what a complete fucktard” condemnation.

    All this guy has said is that he’s looking for a Hindu woman to be his wife. Oh, and he’d like her to be good-looking and young. (Wow, that distinguishes his preferences from all the other guys out there.) This tells us nothing about his motivations and very little about his desires.

    Sure, you can draw up a compelling narrative – Anglo blogger seeks dutiful baby-maker for uncomplaining servitude – drawing on cultural themes and stereotypes of what Anglo guys are looking for in Asian mates. But that’s your narrative, not his; he hasn’t provided any of the text, just a convenient hook for a punching bag. The only people demonstrably using negative stereotypes are the folks drawing the narrative.

87. But that’s your narrative, not his; he hasn’t provided any of the text, just a convenient hook for a punching bag.

    Then my advice to him is to avoid setting himself up. Welcome to teh internets.

88. Also, should he ever meet his Hindu bride, I advise he not let her read his blog.

89. Damn, Lauren, I should have taken your advice

    The trainee that I’ve lusted over so desperately these last four weeks is there in the crowd of them, and she doesn’t need a ride into the city with us after all. This is it, I’ll never see her again, and I won’t be able to pull her drunk and horny up into my hotel room to explore her body, steal some of her youth and happiness to energize my tired dying soul.

90. I read his blog too–that, even more than his want-ad, convinced me of his skeeviness! The whole kiss-thing was gross, especially since he was her superior at work. Icky icky icky.

91. Then my advice to him is to avoid setting himself up.

    Let’s consider the ramifications of this blame the victim type of reasoning. Women shouldn’t dress seductively in order to avoid setting themselves up for rape. A black man shouldn’t walk by a group of skinheads for fear of antagonizing them. A non-Hindu man shouldn’t advertise his interest in Hindu women because liberals will think he is shopping for a submissive woman. You know, I’m not liking this blame the victim mentality – I’d rather cast the blame on those who actually do cross over the line rather than on the victims.

    The funny thing about this whole incident is how it reinforces the image of liberals not acting in furtherance of principle but searching around for principle to support the cause of the day. On one day the issue is “don’t blame the victim” then in another situation the issue is don’t stereotype but it’s fine to blame the victim of one class by stereotyping them so long as you’re supporting the ending of stereotyping of a more favored class.

92. Ugh. Thanks for that link, Lauren. Now I need to go wash out my eyes.

    Never mind. This guy is a pig. The general principles I’ve enunciated are correct, but anybody jumping to assumptions (or perhaps reading his blog and I just missed that) is probably jumping accurately.

93. Again, Tangoman, read the guy’s blog. This isn’t a “blame the victim” sting at all.

94. Whoops, self-correction time. This guy is showing piggish behavior. He’s still human.

95. C’mon. We like hyperbole.

96. Not dehumanizing hyperbole, we don’t. Unless you got a mouse in your pocket, in which case you and Mr. Squeak can go nuts.

97. Actually, I find his commentary somewhat sad, especially his refering to himself as “old” and his soul as “dying”. 37 is not old. Not even close. I’m not that far from that age myself, and I would hate to have that state of mind.

98. Pingback: Cyberspace Rendezvous :: Combining racism and sexism :: March :: 2006

99. I did read the guy’s blog. I certainly wouldn’t have written what he did but what he wrote is certainly open to interpretation. Consider the text just above that which Frumious B quoted:

    We’ll be able to take off our humanistic masks and become bitter and cynical again, openly ogle women, tell sexist and rascist jokes. No more need to be warm and fuzzy and culturally sensitive. He can go back to being British, I can go back to being a grumpy old prick.

    I certainly think that this text, heavily laden with sarcasm, takes the edge off of what follows. He’s upset at having to put on a false front, what with liberal language police and PC hawks infesting his environment, and he sarcastiscally writes about compensating by telling sexist and racist jokes when he is away from their authority. He vents about this on his blog which no one reads or so few read that no one bothers to comment. Then he writes about his desire for drunken sexual exploration and his dying bitter soul. He may be bitter, he may be drunk, he may be rejected, or he may be venting and bitching to get it off his chest.

    What reason do I have to support a position that he’s planning to date rape a woman and is upset that he missed the opportunity? I don’t see it, especially in light of his previous paragraph.

    As I said, his writing isn’t to my taste and it shines a light onto a troubled life, but no more so than thousands of other people’s journals, be they conservative, liberal, feminist, christian, seniors or what have you who may feel that life has dealt them a bad hand.

    Even after reading his journal I don’t see how people jump to the conclusion that his seeking a Hindu woman is code for a submissive woman. I still stand by my contention that the stereotyping that’s occurred has come from his critiques, rather than from the man’s own writing.

100. I wonder if there’s a disability that makes people not see that all situations aren’t equal, and think that you can switch everyone around like little game pieces.. Making fun of a guy for being an asshole on the internet, and institutionalized oppression are not the same thing at all. He can merely go to some other board where tons of other guys are cheering him on about how he is free from ‘Ameriskanks’, and never even see us mocking him at all. He won’t get punished for his piggishness at all, even if he ends up making life worse for an Indian woman.

101. Well, “thanks” for the link, Lauren. Not that he should be taken behind the barn and given a head shot (to paraphrase an old Finnish saying) or anything, but kind of hard to respect the guy, at least based on the writing.

     Not necessarily submissiviness kink, though. This guy just seems to have a wee bit unhealthy obsession over youth and beauty. Even if youth and beauty are desirable for most men, but damn it, steal some of her youth and happiness to energize my tired dying soul?

102. That is, I stand by what I’ve written previously, but the blog thing brings a new perspective.

103. TangoMan, did you read the bit about where he picks up a whore? (I have no idea why exactly he’s doing this, because the conversation makes it seem like he’s working for Covenant House or an anthropology student…maybe to make it seem less gross?) but he prefaces the post with this:
     She looks Kyrgyz, to me – asian eyes, thin, small tight body, round face. Kind and sweet young woman, happy to chat while we have beers and smoke. Wearing tight black jeans and a neon orange sleeveless sports top, with matching hoody. Very cute. Big, firm, proud tits – not particularly common in these parts.

     I think the conclusion is obvious.

104. evil_fizz,

     Yeah I read it. There’s a lot of nastiness in the world – most people don’t write about the nasty stuff in their own world but this guy seems to. Men frequent prostitutes. The woman that he is writing about chose to become a prostitute because of economic circumstance. He’s not presenting testimony about coercion. Some men are assholes with prostitutes, while other men are just lonely or losers or have emotional problems or have sexual idosyncrasies. This shit goes on the world over – I’m not prepared to condemn the guy because he picks up hookers. I’m sure there are people who dream of a world where women don’t have to degrade themselves by selling their bodies for sex and that’s as far as their dreams go. Left unexamined is that many of these women are prostitutes because that’s the most viable way for them to earn money. Eliminate prostitution and the life outcomes for many of the prostitutes will become even worse. Yeah, that sucks, but Kyrgyzstan is renowned for presenting a cornucopia of economic opportunity to its citizens. Instead, the culture produces the phenomona of Bride Kidnapping.

     It’s hard to get into this guy’s head based on the small sample of his writings but I detect a strong streak of sarcasm, a forthright attempt to shock with candor (hence the prostitution post) and an appreciation for young women. News flash – young women are generally more attractive than older women.

     So, he’s not a guy that I would hold up as being an exemplar of virtue, but there still isn’t any writing which leads me to conclude that his desire for a Hindu woman is driven by a fantasy of Hindu women being submissive. If people want to shift the focus of their criticism onto his actual writing then I’ll have less to complain about.

105. He’s not presenting testimony about coercion. Some men are assholes with prostitutes, while other men are just lonely or losers or have emotional problems or have sexual idosyncrasies. This shit goes on the world over – I’m not prepared to condemn the guy because he picks up hookers.

     Well, I am. I’m not going to suggest it’s immaterial how you treat your whore, but the fact of the matter remains that he’s taking advantage of a young woman’s deperation and poverty in exchange for sex, and that’s appalling.

     Left unexamined is that many of these women are prostitutes because that’s the most viable way for them to earn money.

     Making and dealing crystal meth would be the most viable way for plenty of people to make money. You want to jump on that bandwagon, too? Just because there’s a market for something and some people are so desperate that they’ll supply it doesn’t get you to moral correctness. I’m not about to genuflect before the altar of the free market to justify prostitution.

     It’s hard to get into this guy’s head based on the small sample of his writings but I detect a strong streak of sarcasm, a forthright attempt to shock with candor (hence the prostitution post) and an appreciation for young women. News flash – young women are generally more attractive than older women.

     Appreciation and commodification are entirely different things. He’s not appreciating, he’s BUYING. And now we’re back to “women have a sell by date.” Great.

106. he’s taking advantage of a young woman’s deperation and poverty in exchange for sex, and that’s appalling.

     Yes, he’s doing that. Would the world be a better place if prostitution didn’t exist? Probably. Would the world be a better place if the prostitute in his account was living in the gutter, grubbing for food in the trash but maintaining her sexual independence and dignity rather than having shelter and healthy food that are provided by engaging in prostitution? I don’t think so.

     He’s not appreciating, he’s BUYING.

     Don’t conflate his posts. He’s buying the services of the prostitute and he’s buying what appeals to him. That’s commodification. The transaction is all about business and sex. It would be hard to pick a prostitute for her deep understanding of advanced math or world affairs. This is no different than young people going to a bar to find some one to hook up with and primarily using physical markers as their cues. Most of those young people don’t give a damn about the inner qualities of the people they’re going to sleep with that night – they just want the exercise and they want some person to be a stand in for their fantasy.

     In the post under discussion he’s looking for a young bride and that’s all he says. He doesn’t present a laundry list of physical attributes that she has to possess.

     And now we’re back to “women have a sell by date.” Great.

     This is an inescapable fact of life. MILFs are not going to overtake the appeal of younger women and there is plenty of empirical evidence to support the proposition that youth is more sexual attractive than maturity.

107. This is no different than young people going to a bar to find some one to hook up with and primarily using physical markers as their cues. Most of those young people don’t give a damn about the inner qualities of the people they’re going to sleep with that night – they just want the exercise and they want some person to be a stand in for their fantasy.

     You see no difference between an encounter based upon mutual desire and prostitution?

108. Would the world be a better place if the prostitute in his account was living in the gutter, grubbing for food in the trash but maintaining her sexual independence and dignity rather than having shelter and healthy food that are provided by engaging in prostitution? I don’t think so.

     Well, way to make it sound like he’s this woman’s personal savior. It’s wholly disingenuous to say that the line between eating out of trashcans and not is horny men who think they’re entitled to buy sex.

     He’s not appreciating, he’s BUYING.

     Don’t conflate his posts. He’s buying the services of the prostitute and he’s buying what appeals to him. That’s commodification. The transaction is all about business and sex.

     Huh? He’s buying the services of a young hooker. He can appreciate youth without purchasing sexual favors, but that’s not what he’s doing.

     This is no different than young people going to a bar to find some one to hook up with and primarily using physical markers as their cues. Most of those young people don’t give a damn about the inner qualities of the people they’re going to sleep with that night – they just want the exercise and they want some person to be a stand in for their fantasy.

     No, a drunken bar hookup and hiring a hooker are not the same damn thing, even if people are making choices based on looks in both situations.

109. I’m not sure why TangoMan thinks that this bloke is a native Kyrgyzstani just because that’s where he’s blogging from at the moment. He says he’s working/in further training as an ESL teacher, and that he’s from a British/European teaching training background. He writes of travels all over Europe and Asia. That information combined with his writing style would indicate he is a native English speaker.

     Not that this is especially relevant, but I don’t think giving a non-Kyrgyzstani man kudos for not being into the local bride-kidnapping tradition is relevant either.

     I also can’t see where he indicated his political views are leftist (the “Liberal Democracy” links on his blog are jokes – here’s the sidebar you get on the googlenews link:

     >Top Stories
     Liberal Democracy
     Kyrgyzstan
     Bizarre
     Dictator
     Chaos
     Marijuana
     World
     sex
     World (Canada)
     LSD
     World (U.K.)
     Sci/Tech
     U.S .

     You owe me several beers for making me wade through that, TangoMan.

110. This is an inescapable fact of life.

     No, TangoMan, it’s not. “Youth is more attractive” (true of both men and women, btw) is not synonymous with the notion that women have a ‘sell-by’ date, beyond which they are unattractive and no man will have them.

     And your ‘heuristics’ example is just nonsense. We’re not talking about distinguishing individuals based on their personal, observed behavior–we’re talking about vaguely-lumped-together ethnic groups (“Asian” or “Hindu”) and leaping to the conclusion that we can make some judgment about exactly what those individuals are like.

     I mean, if I said that I wouldn’t date a white man because they’re self-involved racists, you’d be all up in my grill, as the kids say. I doubt you’d fall for any blather about ‘heuristics’, either.

111. I also can’t see where he indicated his political views are leftist

     Well, I don’t know many conservatives who are blogging about sex, lsd, marijuana. I don’t know many libertarians who are into teaching at overseas schools. Do you see this guy as a conservative? I don’t know, but idealistic liberal seems to be the closest fit.

     You owe me several beers for making me wade through that, TangoMan.

     LOL. Ok, I’m placing the cans into the DVD-player tray right now. I’m having a bit of trouble closing the tray, but if I give it a real hard push I’m sure that they can will be ready to send. Here goes. . .

     It’s wholly disingenuous to say that the line between eating out of trashcans and not is horny men who think they’re entitled to buy sex.

     “In Kazakhstan 35 percent of the population is poor and in Kyrgyzstan, 51 percent is poor.”

     Kyrgyzstan’s gdp/capita is $378 and at PPP it is $1,751. Since 1990, the economy has been shrinking by an annual rate of 2.4%. The unemployment rate is offically 18% and many sources indicate that at least another 10% are miscounted.

     So, what prospects do the hookers of Kyrgyzstan have in an environment of 28% unemployment with an average gdp/cap of $378? Where’s my disingenuousness? Where’s your alternative accounting?

112. mythago,

     “Youth is more attractive” (true of both men and women, btw) is not synonymous with the notion that women have a ’sell-by’ date, beyond which they are unattractive and no man will have them.

     That’s evil_fizz’s equivalence, not mine. She injected the “sell by date” phrase into the comments.

     we’re talking about vaguely-lumped-together ethnic groups (”Asian” or “Hindu”) and leaping to the conclusion that we can make some judgment about exactly what those individuals are like.

     Don’t neglect height, which is what I’ve been arguing since the beginning. The day that women are just as likely to be with a man shorter than them as they are a man who is taller is the day that I’ll stay silent when criticisms of profiling are launched.

     As Robert pointed out, reaching general conclusions about groups is possible if you have reliable data. When I think about N.E. Asian peoples I know that their mean IQ is 5-7 points higher than the mean IQ of Whites. When I think about Arabs I think that there is a good likelihood (25%-50%) chance that the person is married to a cousin.When I think about someone from India I assign a fairly high probability to their being Hindu. These are all judgements about whole groups and individuals can deviate from those profiles. There’s nothing wrong with doing this.

113. The day that women are just as likely to be with a man shorter than them as they are a man who is taller is the day that I’ll stay silent when criticisms of profiling are launched.

     Has anyone on this thread defended prejudice against shorter men? Why are you trying to make feminists responsible for the prejudicial attitudes of all women?

     Also, given the difference between the average height for men and women, this would be highly unlikely to happen, even if all prejudice was eradicated. I’m just below average height for American women; I don’t even know any men who are shorter than I am!

114. To quote Billy Madison (hat tip: HuffPost):

     At No Point In Your Incoherent, Rambling Response Was There Anything That Could Even Be Considered A Rational Thought.

     Or, to quote the author:

     I’m not sure where to even begin with this.

     Agreed. But let’s take the time to dimantle just one of the many specious claims in the claptrap that is your response:

     but it’s just as racist

     The person who wrote that post said nothing explicitly or implicitly about race. That you imagine to know the writer’s thoughts is a bit zany, but not unexpected from someone so completely indocrinated to a particular mode of thinking. It’s as if the writer is supposed to be a racist because he can’t possibly know that the most beautiful woman in the world is extremely modern / sophisticated / intelligent / well-spoken / commanding, because the writer is, after all, probably a guy – penis and all that – and therefore is, of course, incapable of love / affection / understanding / commitment / rationality.

     Truly unbelievalbe. Or, not. Color me, not surprised.

115. I would just like to note that this guy is NOT from Kyrgistan, he just lives there. He posted a comment on Pandagon in which he explained that he grew up in Vancouver, in communities that became centers for South Asian immigrants.

     So, fine, we see the roots of the attraction, which is something similar to the way my white friend who exclusively dates black men based on stereotypes got started. But like her interest, his interest morphed over the years from “Hey, I’m around a lot of South Asian-Canadian women and I think they’re really hot and I dig the culture, so I really think I’d enjoy hooking up with one” to “Indian-Canadian women are too scary, so I’m going bride shopping in India.”

     And TangoMan, I’m really surprised at how much you’re worrying the height bone. There are a lot of social and cultural pressures for women to seek out taller men — AND for men to seek out shorter, smaller women.

     Women, like me, who are both tall and large are seen as somewhat freakish, because of course we’re supposed to be petite if we’re going to be viewed as feminine (as Molly Ivins once said, “You can’t be six feet tall and cute, both”).

     Now, given the average heights of men and women, it’s not generally a problem for men to find women who are shorter than themselves (I myself am the height of the average American male). However, you also have a number of rather short women who prefer very tall men and rather tall men who prefer very short women (this, I never got, since it hurts my neck to kiss anyone over, say, 6’2″). This preference, in short (NPI), is not always that of women for taller men. I’m sure if you repeated that experiment with men, not one man would choose a woman taller than himself, and they would give similar reasons for doing so — that being with a petite woman made them feel more masculine, as being with a taller man made the women feel more feminine.

     On an anecdotal note, the first guy I dated who was noticeably shorter than I was (I’ve generally dated men around my own height or slightly taller, with a few 6’5″ outliers) had more of an issue with it than I did. I was also the first woman he dated who was taller than he was, and he was 10 years older than I was. He beat himself up frequently during our relationship for being short, which I suspect he didn’t do when dating smaller women. So who had the prejudice there?

     I’ve known other women as well who prefer small, slight men, and their own heights have varied from 5’5″ to 6’3″ (the latter being a basketball player at my college who figured she was so ridiculously tall she was released from any expectations regarding relative height). I’ve known one or two men as well, not necessarily those I’ve dated myself, who prefer taller women.

116. So, what prospects do the hookers of Kyrgyzstan have in an environment of 28% unemployment with an average gdp/cap of $378? Where’s my disingenuousness? Where’s your alternative accounting?

     I can’t profess to know enough abut the economy of the region to answer that. However, just because this woman is desperate enough to become a prostitute does not mean that he’s on the moral high ground in purchasing her services. If he wants to save her, he can just hand her the money. Instead, he’s taking advantage of her poverty and then justifying it because he doesn’t beat her up. Please.

117. Think before you judge…

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