Government Shutdown Open Thread October 1, 2013 Jill Shutting down the entire government in a hissy fit because you don’t want your fellow citizens to have health care seems like a good move, yeah? Discuss.
I think it’d be an ironic twist of fate if the government shut down caused a socialist uprising. Those republicans wouldn’t see it coming.
I’m just hoping the Randians who rely on government assistance (just like their founder) have a collective assplosion.
This is what happens when you gerrymander your party to the point where the only relevant qualification is how pure your devotion to ideology is. Sure, you guarantee that Republicans will be elected. There is no guarantee they will be sane. Boehner is cursing the legacy of DeLay today. What a mess. Let’s just hope they get things figured out before they have to vote on the debt ceiling. A government shutdown is a massive tantrum. Not raising the debt ceiling would be more like economic Armageddon.
… when you gerrymander your party to the point [etc.] … you guarantee that Republicans will be elected Exactly. That’s the whole point of the shutdown. Repubs who voted for the shutdown are guaranteed re-election in their Tea Party-controlled primaries. Shameful.
Meh, I generally agree and whole-heartedly despise the Ted Cruzian Nazi wing of the Repub party. However, whats the dealio on Obama refusing to compromise of Congress and their staff not having to enroll under the ACA? Or is that just a talking point? I’m hearing different things from legit sources, but am too lazy to ferret out the unbiased truth. Anybody who’s better informed care to weigh in? And spare me fascist party vitriol, I despise both parties equally thank you very much.
Just a talking point. The Tea Party (the faction of the GOP that is behind this shut down) had a list about a yard long of the things they claim they wanted done to avert the shut down. This healthcare for GOP & staff was only one of them, and even if they had gotten every single one of their demands — and some of their demands were appallingly outrageous, such as approving Keystone and allowing employers to opt out of covering contraception on religious grounds — they still would have shut down, believe me. Once you pay the Dane Geld, you never get rid of the Dane.
Most of those are their demands for raising the debt ceiling, which is another different fight that is still looming, and has to be resolved before October 17. And defaulting would likely be far worse than a government shutdown.
even if they had gotten every single one of their demands … they still would have shut down Yup. The shutdown is an end in itself, to guarantee Repubs’ re-election and also to put a dent into the slow economic recovery that’s occurring on Obama’s watch. Repubs don’t want Obama to get any credit whatsoever for an improving economy. Repubs haven’t yet registered that this strategy will backfire on them. Expect Repubs to threaten a similar shutdown, for the same reasons, when the debt ceiling comes up for a vote.
Except that Republicans are not the monolith they used to be. It wasn’t that long ago that Democrats couldn’t get their shit together and agree on a single thing, whereas Republicans marched in lockstep with perfect party discipline. Those days are LONG GONE. The thing is that this move is super-popular with Tea Partiers, but the Tea Party is a very small minority of the Republican party in general. Less extreme Republicans are less enamored. Whether or not this is a good move for the re-election of a particular Representative depends on the make-up of that Representative’s district. Not all Republicans represent districts that are, in the majority, okay with shutdowns and defaults and whatnot. I reckon what I’m saying is that this move is not in favor of the re-election of ALL Republicans. The disciplined Republican party of 15 years ago (or even 10) is no more. Republicans created the Tea Party, and that was a big ol’ mistake on their parts.
My hope is that this forces the Republicans to clean their house and rein in some of their more extreme members. When there are experienced and high-level Republicans (like McCain for example) are aghast at what is going on, but cannot do anything to stop it, you know that there is a problem.
The dealio with this (to the best of my news-reading understanding) is that the Republicans wanted to have all of Congress and their staffs purchase health care on the open exchanges without being able to use any of the government subsidies for people with low incomes. This is not a problem for congressfolk and senators, for they are very very well paid indeed, and most of them are independently wealthy to boot. But a lot of their staff members and aids have very low wages, and in order to be able to purchase health insurance on the exchanges would need those subsidies that the Republicans don’t want them to get.
I was under the impression that the issue is that they would lose the employer-sponsored part of their health benefits if they had to purchase through the exchanges. There was no good way to get that part of their compensation back without congress passing a work-around. Honestly, I’ve never understood why all these great ideas for punishing Congress-critters always seem to also (or only) fall on their staff. As if the staff are the ones voting for the dumb legislation.
The dealio is also that Congressional staffers would be fairly unique in that the ACA requires them to use the exchanges instead of their existing high-quality, employer-provided health insurance. The ACA exchanges were never intended for people who are happy with the insurance they get through their jobs; it was intended to give more/better options to people who are uninsured or under-insured. The Republicans like to talk about how Congress is trying for some kind of unique, special exemption from “Obamacare” when in fact, they just wanted to be treated like any other USian when it comes to using the exchanges vs employer-provided insurance. Last I heard, some Republican douchebag was trying to modify the law to require that ALL federal employees use the exchanges rather than the Federal Employees Healthcare Benefits program (which is really just a collection of health insurance plans). When the civil service union protested, it was of course portrayed as federal workers trying to get special treatment.
However, whats the dealio on Obama refusing to compromise of Congress and their staff not having to enroll under the ACA? The dealio is that it’s not a “compromise” and never was. Any more than it’s a “compromise” when someone takes a building full of hostages and demands $200 million, and then graciously offers to take only $100 million instead. If the authorities give in, we don’t call that a compromise just because the hostage-taker reduced the original demand.
This. So.much.of.this. Too many people are arguing that they are “mad at both sides” and don’t understand why Democrats “won’t compromise.” It’s because this isn’t law-making, this is a hostage situation, with people’s livelihoods being held in check by Republicans. The time to compromise was back when the bill was being passed (and there was a ton of compromise back then, which led to a lot of the holes and problems people have with the bill, but that is another story). This is playing endgame Russian roulette with people’s jobs and it’s disgusting.
Just to clarify, when I say I hate both parties i mean I hate both parties in general. I agree with you about the hostage-taking. I believe the two-party system is incredibly anti-democratic, but thats a discussion for another day.
All I can do is shake my head. My immense sympathy to everyone on this thread who is directly affected by this stupid partisan bullshit.
I want to go back to work 🙁 But, seriously, the fact that the Republicans think it’s reasonable for the Democrats to make major concessions on the ACA in exchange of THE GOVERNMENT FUNCTIONING FOR SIX WEEKS AT SEQUESTER-LEVELS is ridiculous. Frankly, much like the debt ceiling, I don’t think that Congress failing to act should be enough to shut down the government (or force it to default on its debt).
What does this really accomplish, besides being political theater at its worst? “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” – Barry Goldwater, Republican Nominee for President, 1964
Tired of this crap. My privately purchased family health insurance will increase to $1744 per month effective Dec. 1. Damn straight I want the Affordable Health Care Act insurance. Too bad I can’t get onto the website today. Either the website launched prematurely, or there are so many people trying to get insurance that the system is overloaded. Probably both. Meanwhile, the majority of our household income derives from an agency that shut down today. We are contractors, so are affected starting … now. Assholes. Fucking assholes.
Are you trying the one for your state or the main Fed one? There are individual ones for the states that have Healthcare insurance exchanges already. Unfortunately the only option if your state doesn’t have an exchange is the main Healthcare.gov site and they are getting slammed with traffic today http://freethoughtblogs.com/zingularity/2013/10/01/links-to-all-state-healthcare-exchanges/ I realize as a contractor you may already know all this.
Aaahhh, but I live in Virginia! Which refused to set up its own state exchange! So the Feds had to do it for the state. Assholes. All of them.
Effective Dec. 1. Which of course we can’t afford. So it’s do without for that month, and try to do better on the Exchange.
The price of private insurance in the US (and everything else about the not-healthcare system) is mindboggling, horrifying … I can never get my head around how bad it is. That’s a few hundred more than I pay in a year. Granted that’s for one person, but … fucking hell.
I was given a quote of about $1,500/month. For just me. The agents on the phone knew nothing about me except my name, my state, my age, and my gender.
I’m pretty sure that rate is pre-deductible. Which, if you’re not familiar with U.S. insurance, after you pay your monthly premium, you are also responsible for a certain amount out of pocket each calendar year, sometimes into the thousands. I know a woman who planned her pregnancy around when her deductible would likely be fulfilled so she wouldn’t have to pay anything out of pocket at the birth or after. Correct me if I’m wrong about your deductible, Hattie.
The nursing scholarship I just won is affected by this shutdown. They don’t currently have anyone to operate the program, so they can’t answer questions or administrate anything, and whether or not I’ll see the money for this month/next month (that I plan to live on, btw) is kind of nebulous.
A friend’s son just started at the Merchant Marine Academy. Said friend has to drive out there ASAP and pick the son up, since that school is now shut down. Imagine your first semester at college having to go home after about a month and no idea when you would get to come back. Assholes.
Someone I follow online is a food safety inspector. They will be working, but they don’t know if or when they’ll get paid. So much for “essential” workers. Congress shouldn’t get paid until they pass something.
I’m pretty sure they don’t, but they do get back pay, same as most “essential” employees. Which is not to say I’d mind imposing some kind of penalty on them for not passing a budget.
Sadly, quite a lot of Congressmen and women don’t rely on their Congressional wage, so they’ll be able to shrug it off.
Oh for fuck’s sake these people make me so angry. I’m sitting here, low on my meds because of a fuck up on the mail order pharmacy’s part, and I just can’t help but think that all of those people who are whining about how devastating the Affordable Care Act will be have never faced a health care crisis of their own, one that leads to a serious economic hurt. The first time I was personally dinged I was actually working a full time job, but couldn’t get insurance because my employer wouldn’t offer it until after a year. And CAT scans done in the ER that aren’t between the hours of 9-5, M-F are actually MORE expensive, did you all know that? And as much as I hate the whole thing where Catholic hospitals fuck poor women over with regard to EVERYTHING regarding reproductive health, one damn well wrote off my $3,000+ ER visit in ’92. Because religious-based have to give charitable aid if they are going to continue to be seen as a non profit, and I jumped through the hoops to get that aid once I saw that damn bill and nearly choked and died. And I came from a position of hella privilege, if I ever whispered word one about this bill to my parents, they would have paid it. I can’t imagine what it would be like for people who have no safety net, with even bigger health care issues, and much bigger on going bills. But yeah. Affordable Care Act. It’s just the WORST. *eyeroll* I would much rather be saddled with huge bills and be uninsured because no one would cover my pre-existing condition. Better to keep people home from work and keep THEM from earning the money they need.
I’ve already had that argument with family members. “Those lazy leeches just need to buy private health insurance!” I fucking can’t. I’m completely dependent on my employer’s continual providing of health insurance. “Well, they should only get jobs that provide health insurance!” K, let’s just go to the job tree and pick one then.
I come from a place of massive class privilege and those kinds of people really piss me off too. The whole “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” meme is some of the most disingenuous toxic babble to have ever hit the American scene. I’m not really affected by this stuff one way or the other, but alot of people ARE, and if I belittle or try to deny their experience then I’m pretty much a bastard. I’ve done enough legal research on this legislation and health-care in general to know it’s incredibly convoluted and extremely difficult to predict what the end results will be, but if the ACA ends up helping the less fortunate, I say more power to it.
And I’ve been on Medicaid twice now, once when I was pregnant, and once for a year after a seizure landed me in the hospital overnight. And I must say, there is a shitload less red tape with government paperwork than there is insurance paperwork, so those Congresspeople who go on and on about bureaucracy really need to take a gander at the average American’s insurance policy. I know it was pretty straightforward, and they didn’t keep changing year after year on the whims of an insurance company. And my most rankling story is this: A place that I worked at had their insurance policies completely reworked because their company wasn’t making enough of a profit for insuring them. They were still making a profit, just not ENOUGH of one. At least I was getting my insurance through a different method, because lord only knows what they would have tried to pull with my meds, as they were brand new and extra spendy at the time. And heaven forfend someone get a med that works instead of something that’s cheap.
I have a cousin who is very rah-rah bootstraps. She’s a hard worker and never had any help! She could do it, so why can’t everyone else? The thing that blacks me out is: she really believes that that is true. That she built herself this life that she has (good job, home ownership in her 20s, etc) by herself. She’s from a richer branch of my family. My father’s brother and sister-in-law are very successful and very, very conservative. They paid for her college in full. I think she worked PT at the mall or something for part of it. She got her current job through her father’s connections – and so did her husband. I suspect but don’t know that they had help with the down payment on the house. And yet she truly believes that she never took anything from anyone, didn’t have special advantages, built it all by herself. It’s really like… such an intense denial of reality
And all I can think is just how is it that people can just have no fucking empathy? Do we really have to literally drop people into other people’s shitty ass lives in order to get them to realize that yes, some people just do have a harder row to hoe, simply by virtue of being born how they were born, and that maybe, just maybe, we might have to level things off just a BIT?
I’ve never understood how Republicans can square the idea of people having to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” with the idea that parents should be able to give their kids an advantage. Doesn’t that, by definition, mean that some kids don’t have to deal with any of that bootstrap nonsense?
So true on the conservative hypocrisy there, they pleasure themselves to the notion that they worked for everything they got and noone gave THEM a leg up dammit. But anytime the Dems propose even extremely reasonable estate (or death if you’re a hysteric) taxes they howl at the moon. Which is it, is inheritance good or bad. Plus, as a southerner you should see how the conservative good ole boy networks are still alive and well in the big southern cities. Bootstraps my ass, only man I ever knew who tried his best to give jobs to people who really WERE trying to make something from nothing (usually POC, which is a whole nother ball of wax cause there are still alot of racist and “educated” people down my way which further hurts POC’s employment prospects) is my father.
Well I, for one, am just shocked to hear that an illegal,invading, occupying government is falling apart. And now colonizers are getting a taste of what the indigenous deal with on a daily basis. So naturally it’s a crisis now. This is how it works for you when it shuts down. This is how it works for us when it’s working.
Actually, I take that back. It’s still working better for colonizers while shut down than it does for us when it’s chugging along smoothly.
I just want to say that pheenobarbidoll, macavitykitsune, and tmc have been making great points throughout that I agree with 100%.
You’re right. Silly of me to complain at all. Who the fuck cares if I don’t get paid? Immigrant ancestors of mine should have seen this coming before they fled communism. Assholes.
You have colonizer privileged right now Hattie. In every single aspect of your life, including your job. It’s not about not complaining, it’s about pulling your head out long enough to hear how it sounds to people who ALWAYS live with this kind of broke government where ONE person can ruin everything …your job, your health, everything. But now you’re affected so its a goddamn tragedy. Even when it works, we don’t have jobs. Even when it works, we get sent home with Tylenol during a heart attack. But it will go right back to ssdd when YOU have YOUR job back. People who live with this everyday will go right back to …nothing. So excuse me if I have some anger about that. I forgot, this isn’t how it’s supposed to work for you. Just us.
Yup. it’s all my fault, Pheeno. What an asshole I am, sharing my thoughts about the government shutdown on a thread in which I was explicitly invited to do so. Stupid, colonizing, privileged me who only started caring, working, helping, donating, voting, and protesting today. Because it only affects me. Youre so right. Fuck my colonizing children and their need to eat and their need for healthcare. Whatever was I thinking? I’m sure there are people starving in China, too, and women suffering worse in other countries. How dare I?
tinfoil, no one’s telling you not to complain, pheeno was pointing out that this is status quo for her people. Last I heard she was allowed to have her own opinions on this thread where opinions are allowed, too.
IMO talking about colonization here is a topic for spillover. FFS yourself: it’s a thread on the shutdown. That ‘s what I wrote about.
it’s a thread on the shutdown. That ‘s what I wrote about. It’s also what pheeno wrote about. If you didn’t want to discuss her comment, you were free to interact with every other comment on the thread. I’ll happily take further discussion to #spillover if you want.
You’re not directly benefiting off of starving people in China or abused women in other countries. You are directly benefiting from Native genocide. You profit, in fact, when that genocide machine is working. One of the sticking points on this shut down is over the keystone pipeline. If it stalls THAT, it can stay shut down forever for all I care. The keystone pipeline is currently positioning the hell out of the indigenous, and our land are being used to run the thing. Against our treaties, without our consent, illegally. As long as nothing can go forward on that front, I’ll dance a jig of glee. You can get another job a lot easier than you can undead people.
One of the sticking points on this shut down is over the keystone pipeline. If it stalls THAT, it can stay shut down forever for all I care. The keystone pipeline is currently positioning the hell out of the indigenous, and our land are being used to run the thing. The sticking point about the Keystone pipeline is that the Republicans are insisting that it be tied to the raising of the debt-ceiling. Were they to agree to the raising of the debt ceiling without condition, the Keystone pipeline WILL be stalled. The Republicans are almost unanimously behind the Keystone pipeline, so I don’t really see how giving them the upper hand in these negotiations will help that one specific issue- and it’s a specific issue with which I agree with your position 100%.
Because, Steve, it’s all on hold. It can’t go forward at all while the government is shut down. Contractors are not on reservations today.
Because, Steve, it’s all on hold. It can’t go forward at all while the government is shut down. Contractors are not on reservations today. Ah, I see what you mean. Though it’s unbelievably unlikely that the shut down would be permanent in that sense. And even if it was- somehow, I feel they’ll figure out some way to give indigenous people the shaft.
Again, pheeno, I apologize for that rude comment about my ancestors. It was unfair and racist and assholish. tmc and macavity, however, referred to my acknowledgement of my privilege and colonizer status as “snark.”. That was not snark on my part.
What Andie said. Though I personally characterise it as current residence in North America, because lbr, it’s not like slaves brought over in the 1700s were participating in colonising anybody. I think what Miss S was asking is- are their descendants participating in colonizing?
Yeah, from what I’ve seen Americans are still very much continuing to actively colonize. If you watch for Federal NA cases in the courts, you’ll see American corporations and interests still trying to intrude on tribal lands, build damns, of course there’s the Keystone pipeline and other pipelines that run through tribal lands. Never ends, and for whatever reason its still relatively easy for the government to get by with shitting on the tribes even though many other ethnicities have become sacrosanct.
Yes. Their descendants are also colonizing. Unless they’re not living on stolen land, not eating food grown on stolen land, not driving/walking down roads paved over our ancestors bodies, not benefiting from an occupying government giving them citizenship rights, not going to schools built on stolen land etc. Marching on Washington for your rights? You’re marching across unmarked graves. Oppression doesn’t erase that. A homeless person sleeping under an overpass is still sleeping on stolen land, under something built without consent and only exists because of murder. The ironic part is that this homeless person is homeless because of colonization. Because we were and are being murdered, you have all the positive benefits of your government. Because we were and are being murdered, you have all the negative actions of your government. The society you live in, good or bad, only exists because genocide.
The terminology seems odd to us, in that “coloniser” implies someone who is establishing a colony, rather than just reaping the consequences of it. But, well. We’re insulated from all this by 2000 miles of ocean, and couldn’t tell you if our lives depended on it whether we’re descended from natives, settlers or invaders of Albion. Probably all three. So what does and doesn’t seem odd to us probably matters even less to you than usual. And that’s fine. And, like Briznecko said, thank you for your perspective. In this thread we have learned that we have even more to learn about racism in America than we had thought. Some of the unknown unknowns have become known unknowns.
Yes. Their descendants are also colonizing. Unless they’re not living on stolen land, not eating food grown on stolen land, not driving/walking down roads paved over our ancestors bodies, not benefiting from an occupying government giving them citizenship rights, not going to schools built on stolen land etc. Marching on Washington for your rights? You’re marching across unmarked graves. Oppression doesn’t erase that. A homeless person sleeping under an overpass is still sleeping on stolen land, under something built without consent and only exists because of murder. The ironic part is that this homeless person is homeless because of colonization. Because we were and are being murdered, you have all the positive benefits of your government. Because we were and are being murdered, you have all the negative actions of your government. The society you live in, good or bad, only exists because genocide. Perfect answer…unfortunately I am less than perfect and nested the question wrongly so Miss S may never what is basically a response to her question: Aren’t there racial and ethnic groups in the U.S who aren’t and weren’t colonizers? I’m an idiot…I know…
Oh FFS. This again? Everyone not-Native has coloniser privilege in North America. Yes, you too. Yes, me too. Did I escape a shitty set of circumstances by coming to Canada? Yep. Do I imagine that many Native people would look me right in the eye and go “you are just as bad as the genocidal fucknuts who killed most of us” for wanting to leave a country where I could wind up in jail for my sexual orientation? No, of course not; they’re not assholes. Does that make me not a coloniser? Nope. Totally am a coloniser. So are you. So is every single non-Native person living on the continent today, even if they are in every single other way more oppressed than a Native person. Suck it the fuck up and deal.
So on a thread about the government shutdown, which affects lots of people including me, the only acceptable comment is: “Who cares if this bankrupts us? Who cares about my kids? After all, since I am actively colonizing, I don’t deserve anything anyway. There are so many people worse off, that my stupid problems don’t matter! Gosh, what a lucky ducky I am! Suck it up, bitch!”
No, what is inappropriate is to shut down a counter-perspective from a person who also resides in your country. Neither pheeno nor I have expressed that you’re not allowed to talk about your problems; it’s the denial of coloniser privilege that I was speaking about. I am not and have not denied that your situation is objectively awful.
Okay, Pheeno, you’re right. I’m a privileged, colonizing asshole. I’m a privileged, colonizing asshole. I’m a privileged colonizing asshole. Who is affected deeply by, and pissed off at, and STRESDING HEAVILY about, the topic of this post. And I am a privileged, colonizing assole.
Try replacing the word government with genocidal killing machine. Think that might alter your perspective a titch? The genocidal killing machine has shut down, but that’s terrible because some people aren’t working. I was also invited to share my thoughts. There they are. Your government is a genocidal killing machine. Don’t worry though, my opinion on it won’t change your life in any way, but I’m not going to continue putting colonizer problems ahead of indigenous. Your shit always gets fixed first. Have no fear. It will get fixed first again. And my family will still have no jobs, and get a note pinned on them in the ambulance letting the hospital know they can’t be treated because the money ran out in June.
Perhaps YOU are a long way from “falling apart.” As a self-employed contractor to an agency that shut down this morning, it will take only a few days of non-billable time to feel this, and badly. We’ve already had to let people go because of the sequester.
Note: the difference between having coloniser privilege and being a privileged colonising asshole is the difference between having male privilege (not something you can do fuck-all about) and being a privileged misogynist male (set of actions intended to negatively impact a marginalised group). The distinction is important.
I will live your short days to falling apart until I am dead and in the ground. I have been living it for 40 years. It’s killed my family members. It’s blinded my diabetic aunt. It’s NEVER not shut down for us. NEVER.
Pheeno: I am very very, very sorry for arrogantly telling you that your concerns were “spillover.” It was wrong, hideous, colonizong, and racist of me. I apologize that my fears over my family’s situation gave me the arrogance to assert my assholish white privilege. i am very, very sorry for all the crap you and your family go through on a daily basis. I care about you and I am sorry I did not think more carefully about my words. I didn’t want to make things even worde for you. I have no extnded family, and that tends to send me into panic during crisis. Not your fault: mine.
Of course you don’t, pheeno. I know that. And I will redouble my efforts to NOT be a jerk, and to keep bringing attention to the shameful atrocities that we privileged people visit upon Native Americans, and other so-called “marginalized” citizens, every day. I know that’s little comfort. And I’ll keep trying to be a better ally.
Wait….everyone who is not Native has colonizer privilege? Aren’t there racial and ethnic groups in the U.S who aren’t and weren’t colonizers?
Wait….everyone who is not Native has colonizer privilege? Aren’t there racial and ethnic groups in the U.S who aren’t and weren’t colonizers? Basically, yes. Anyone who is not native is only here because of a history of colonization, which is what eventually allowed people here. Even if you were not here by choice, you still have colonizer privilege. Because you are taking up land that was not yours to take. If it doesn’t seem like privilege, that’s probably due to other intersecting privileges and oppressions.
What Andie said. Though I personally characterise it as current residence in North America, because lbr, it’s not like slaves brought over in the 1700s were participating in colonising anybody.
She’s right though Tinfoil Hattie. We do benefit from the evil the U.S. government has done. The very least we can do is listen when it’s pointed out to us.
That’s not acknowledging it. You’re just being unnecessarily snarky. We get that you have skin in this game but pheeno’s point that is that she has skin in this game ALL THE TIME REGARDLESS OF SHUT-DOWN and no one gives a fuck until colonisers start getting a taste of what NA folks deal with every day day. It’s like when the economy first tanked and there was this huge panic because suddenly white folks were in an economic depression. Nevermind the fact that black folks had ALREADY been in an economic depression; it wasn’t an emergency until white folks were affected by it.
P.S. TMC – lots and lots and lots and lots of non-white people work for the federal government and for the contractors who support the federal government. This shutdown is not about rich white people who are in dismay because the Jefferson Memorial is closed and now they can’t get married there, which is how it’s being portrayed. The 800,000 is just direct federal employees. Contractors are furloughing and laying off people in droves.
This shutdown is not about rich white people who are in dismay because the Jefferson Memorial is closed and now they can’t get married there, which is how it’s being portrayed. Um, pheeno was not talking about rich whites and fancy weddings. She was talking about dead Native Americans and colonizers stealing their children. You really don’t understand how your sincerity could be doubted when you say shit like this? Fully aware that non-whites are being impacted by this. But if it were ONLY non-whites being impacted, I’m damn sure that it wouldn’t be getting the traction and outrage amongst mainstream folks that it is. Which I’m pretty sure is pheeno’s point. When it was only happening to the colonized, it was just business as usual. Now that it’s happening to colonizers (and PLENTY of non-whites are colonizers, myself included) it’s a goddamn national tragedy. THAT is the point.
And this shutdown? It sucks. It sucks for you. It sucks for lots of people. It’s scary. It’s life-threatening. It means some people will lose things that they will never get back again. But it will end. One way or another, the money will start flowing again. The system was built to serve the privileged and it will right itself again to continue serving the privileged. People will start to pick up the pieces. For the vast majority of people affected by the shut-down, this is not the rest of their lives. But for so many others, specifically many of the people whose land we’re currently squatting on? This IS the rest of their lives. This is all they’ve ever known! And after the shut-down ends and the colonizers breathe their sighs of relief and start putting their lives back together, what relief do you think is going to come for the colonized? A big fat fucking NOTHING. Back to business as usual with our boots on their necks. Which is exactly what the system is designed to do.
And not trying to belittle anyone’s experience, but all government employees affected will eventually get their backpay. NA’s will not get backpay. Ever.
And this: IMO talking about colonization here is a topic for spillover. FFS yourself: it’s a thread on the shutdown. That ‘s what I wrote about. There is a long history of WOC in feminism and on Feministe being told that when they bring their racialized perspectives to the table that they are being off-topic and need to keep it out of the thread. I can’t speak for pheeno at all but it pissed me the hell off to read the above. She’s been talking about the shutdown from the perspective of an indigenous person living in this country. Seems pretty on-topic to me.
Thank you tmc, and you others that get it. And agreed, that take it to spill over was race failing bullshit.
Like hell you were sincere in that hyperbolic “acknowledgment”, tinfoil. But whatever. @pheeno, least I could do.
tmc, I responded to this: “It’s like when the economy first tanked and there was this huge panic because suddenly white folks were in an economic depression. ” Not all people of color are poor. Your conflation of “poor” and “black” is a bit disconcerting. I am privileged and a colonizer. And like hundreds of thousands of other workers, deeply affected and very stressed. It can be true that I am both a privileged colonizer AND facing hardship. If caring for myself and my family qualifies me as a racist (and insincere) in your book, i am powerless to change your opinion. I am giving you facts; you are countering them with bias and opinion.
No one’s calling you a racist for caring about your family for fuck’s sake. (You can tell, because we didn’t follow every other white person here who’s (rightly) afraid for their family/health/etc they were racist.) It’s shutting down pheeno’s on-topic comment, hyperbolic fauxpologies about being a “colonising asshole” when pheeno brought up her point of view independently, and the old “well MY family never killed Indians” whining. Followed by an attempt to change what the conversation’s about entirely. And accusing a black woman of “projecting her bias” onto you. At this point, you’re probably best off apologising, or at least dropping this thread. At least that way you’ll stop before you get to being outright racist.
macavity, you’re lying about and misrepresenting everything I said here. I never said “my family never killed Indians.” I was sarcastic about the reasons my ancestors came here. That is true. I am sorry for that rude commment. Also, anyone can be biased. Kinda like you are in certain circumstances.
Tmc is a black woman, tinfoil. She isnt conflating poor with black, she’s simply aware there are more poor poc and informing you about their reaction. She doesn’t need you to whitesplain it to her. You admit your privilege, so consider you may be wrong about this, because your privilege is filtering our words.
I never said “my family never killed Indians.” I was sarcastic about the reasons my ancestors came here. That is true. I am sorry for that rude commment. I was referencing the name of a trope. Namely, “MY ancestors never killed Indians” as a way of saying exactly what you said: that your ancestors had problems too. SOrry if that wasn’t clear because of your general lack of knowledge on anti-Native racism. And if you don’t know the badness in accusing a black woman of having “bias” when she calls out a white woman on racist microaggressions, well, I don’t know what to say.
And I’m going to stop posting, because you’re going through shit, and I usually respect what you say and don’t particularly want to add to the pile further. I accept you’re not being snarky at this point.
By “bias,” tmc, I am referring to your accusation that I did not properly acknowledge my privilege. I owned it in as straightforward a manner as I could. I did not mean “institutional” bias.
That is exactly what your snarky family comment means, regardless of the intent behind it. It’s experienced as racism. I experienced that as racism. Mac is not lying nor misrepresenting your words. She’s removed the privilege filter from them and exposed the meaning they have to poc.
macavity: I did not know that tmc is black. I apologized to her for whitesplaining. I meant that too. I am not ignorant of racism against Native Americans.
Pheeno: I am very very, very sorry for arrogantly telling you that your concerns were “spillover.” It was wrong, hideous, colonizong, and racist of me. I apologize that my fears over my family’s situation gave me the arrogance to assert my assholish white privilege. i am very, very sorry for all the crap you and your family go through on a daily basis. I care about you and I am sorry I did not think more carefully about my words. I didn’t want to make things even worde for you. I have no extnded family, and that tends to send me into panic during crisis. Not your fault: mine.
Tinfoil: Your arguments remind me of every white dude bro who says it’s not his fault he’s a man, and white men have problems too. It’s frustrating to explain his privilege to him no? You’re now the white guy who won’t listen. FWIW, I am white if that makes a difference to you) I live on one of the founding Nations of the Iroquois (Haudenosaunee) Confederacy. Do I benefit from that? Yep. Is it fair? Nope. Did I actively play a part in destroying them? No. Does it benefit me? Yes. If I could right every wrong done would I do it? Yes. What’s happened and is still happening goes against everything I believe in, and short of time travel I can’t reverse it. But I can’t And feeling guilty about it, playing the White Savior ala Dances with Wolves, is useless and insulting The very least we can do is listen and acknowledge what we’re being told. Sharon
No, I am not a white guy. I have stated, REPEATEDLY, that I am a colonizing asshole. What part of that is me refusing to acknowledge my privilege? Seriously.
Colonizer doesn’t = asshole. Please stop. It treats the experience of the colonized like it’s some race card whine.
pheeno, I disagree. There is a huge element of assholish entitlement on the part of the colonizers, including me. I am NOT whining. I am owning.
No, I am not a white guy. I have stated, REPEATEDLY, that I am a colonizing asshole. What part of that is me refusing to acknowledge my privilege? Seriously. I know you’re not. I was trying to show you how you sound to the OP, by using an example you could relate to and hopefully understand where they’re coming from. Eh? No one thinks you’re an asshole.
I remember taking a class on native american supreme court jurisprudence in law school (cant remember the name exactly), and it struck me that the US’s systematic assaults and abuses on native american sovereignty were sanctioned not just by presidents and congressmen, but the supreme court as well. It’s significant in that growing up as a white american the typical narrative is one of benign displacement: well, we didnt really mean any harm, they were just in the way so we had to move/displace/rob them, we tried to mitigate harm and do nice things for them etc. When in fact if you read the relevant SC decisions, they harbored a horrifying amount of callousness and outright contempt for native americans, and quite happily signed off on legislation that everyone knew would have extremely destructive effects on the NA population. But we still do these ridonkulous thanksgiving plays that depict pilgrims and indians as best pals and mutually beneficial to one another, so children grow up thinking America was built on good times and great oldies instead of blood and tears.
But we still do these ridonkulous thanksgiving plays that depict pilgrims and indians as best pals and mutually beneficial to one another, so children grow up thinking America was built on good times and great oldies instead of blood and tears. The Little House on the Prairie books promote all that shit too. Those are some nasty books. Another layer of horror: Laura Ingalls Wilders daughter Rose was a early Libertarian/ pre Teabagger cheerleader. A real piece of work she was. Roseanne had great Thanksgiving episode :DJs Native American school teacher writes a controversial thanksgiving play: The Pilgrims whip out machine guns and massacre the Indians. I miss that show. Here is a link that tears apart the Little House books
ETA LITTLE SQUATTER ON THE OSAGE DIMINISHED RESERVE: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1022&context=greatplainsquarterly
The US government has shut down 18 times since 1970. The impact this shutdown will have on people will vary from negligible (me) to very stressful (hattie, maybe) depending on how reliant one is on various parts of government functioning normally. But by any objective measure, we’re a long way from ‘falling apart.’ If we’re still dancing to this tune 2 weeks from now, that might change. But I have to assume there are limits to insanity, even from the Tea Party.
Perhaps YOU are a long way from “falling apart.” As a self-employed contractor to an agency that shut down this morning, it will take only a few days of non-billable time to feel this, and badly. We’ve already had to let people go because of the sequester.
When I said “we’re not falling apart,” I meant the government of the United States, and the country as a whole. I was countering Pheeno’s implication that the US government is facing some kind of existential crisis. It’s not. We’ve been down this road dozens of times before, and while it’s always painful, it’s a long, long way from fatal. It was not my intention to minimize or dismiss the impact the shutdown is having on you or anyone else. Believe me, I understand the extremely negative effect this shutdown is having on various individuals. Hundreds of thousands of people are suffering as a result of this action, with consequences ranging from the mildly inconvenient to personally devastating. You have my deepest sympathies for your situation, and my firmest hopes for a speedy resolution.
… I have to assume there are limits to insanity, even from the Tea Party. Unfortunately, there’s no guarantee that Tea Party Repubs in Congress will act sanely about the debt ceiling. For Repubs in Congress, Tea Party affiliation is not a philosophy of governance but merely a strategy for being re-elected. For Tea Party Repubs, if government default wrecks the U.S. and global economy, they couldn’t care less, as long as they get re-elected in Tea-Party-controlled primaries.
1000X. A just, verdant, & peaceful society isn’t possible with our current government. It never has been either.
Man, I’ve written and deleted this comment several times, so I’m just going to say it: I don’t understand your point. Like, I understand your justified anger and bitterness over the mistreatment of Native people and the frustration you feel at people freaking out over tasting a fraction of it. But the way you phrased your comment doesn’t seem to be a rumination or a sharing of your own thoughts, it’s stated like your trying to say something more or engage something and I’m not sure what that is. Like there’s some kind of context I’m missing or an expected response I should have and all I feel is a sort of vaguely confused agreement and not sure where this is going next. And part of my confusion is the fact that I know a lot of Native people, one way or another, have some kind of reliance on the federal government–either because it has specifically Native funding, or poverty-focused, or region-focused, or other kinds of categories that Native people overwhelming fall into as a group that is consciously, systematically disenfranchised. So I see that, once again, Native people are going to end up with the shortest possible end of the shit stick. And I’m kind of surprised that’s you didn’t go in that direction.
That government funding 1) runs out ( look up don’t get sick after June) 2) is used to threaten sovereignty 3) isn’t even enough to survive on for so many that it might as well not exist. And 4) used to keep child services in Native lives. Makes stealing kids easier. So what the hell is the difference? When it “works” we’re screwed, when it shuts down we’re still screwed. When you only get health care 6 months out of a year, when that 6 months happens is nit picking. When you start off with the shit end of the stick, you don’t really care if they hand you a different stick. It’s still the shit end.
I mean honestly. When you can have appointments with a government services agency and you go, only to find the doors locked and the building is empty ( no explanation) wait for your food stamp card to renew but it’s 2 weeks late, go to a hospital emergency room and be sent home, call the police and never have one show up, how is this significantly different? How do you devastate the already devastated? How much lower than 3rd world living conditions can you get? It’s depressing and pointless. Some days I feel like my perspective is so alien that I might as well be from mars. My house is on fire and my neighbors are complaining about the heat….That’s what it’s like. And it’s been this way since occupy wall street. I have lost family members left and right, and most were due to lack of health care. Or drinking the water. Seriously. Drinking their tap water. Dead.
I feel that this is exactly what I meant by missing a context of your statement. And while it’s so materially different in terms of scale, I’ve worked or lived in communities with poisonous groundwater and insane social services. The lower down your privilege access is the darker it gets. It’s depressing and enraging and horrifying and just knocks the legs out from under you over and over until there’s no real point in getting up. I mean this completely non-confrontationally–what should I do? I’m aware of the Native American genocide, I use opportunities to educate others when I can, but a few words and some self-masturbatory white guilt doesn’t clean water or restore sight. Or, like, if you don’t have the energy to play Teach The White Girl Stuff that’s fine too.
Fuck, that’s atrocious. I’ve always known that the oppression of Native people remains strong today, but this is some of the worst I have ever heard about in this day and age. =[
Truthfully I don’t know anymore. How do you force a government to pay its bills? They’re 140 million dollars behind already, another 22 million behind on IHS ( Indian health services) Obamacare will only help some. And Obama himself has tried to cut money from us. IF tribes were paid their due on time and completely, we could help ourselves and climb from this hole. IF we were allowed true sovereignty, we’d have a better chance. Neither party keeps its promises. Both parties steal from us. So voting doesn’t even help us, because there’s no one to vote for that’s a true ally.
Pheeno, I want to thank you for your perspective. I never respond or comment, often because I tend to feel defensive and hurt, but I know that feeling is the result of my priviledge. I don’t want to be silent either, even though I don’t really know what to say. So, I’ll keep reading and learning. Someday, when I know I won’t be a defensive jackass, I’ll comment too.
More info on how the shutdown is disproportionally effecting the tribes. http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2013/oct/02/government-shutdowns-hit-magnified-for-tribes/#axzz2gb7bSDZ2
I’m so sorry, as a Canadian I just can’t understand the problem with universal healthcare, the whole issue baffles me completely. And to shut down the government in “retaliation”!!?!? I just don’t get it whatsoever. Sorry, dear friends to the South, I just can’t understand the mentality here. Revolution, anyone?
I know.. Our single payer system has problems, but Jesus.. I’ve never gotten the mentality that healthcare is something people either deserve or don’t deserve.
EastBC – ditto to everything you said, just change “south” to “northeast” (I’m in Australia). The whole “if you can’t pay, you can suffer and die, and btw we’ll make paying impossible for any but the seriously wealthy” attitude is so hateful and so baffling.
I suspect that this attitude is institutionalized racism, and that neocons would be quite accepting of ACA if rewritten as white only and if it excluded gyn services. As it is, the recent research which found extended ER wait times for nonwhite CHILDREN says it all. Sorry to report, a swath of white wealthy Americans may be among the worst educated and most uncivilized folks on the planet.
I suspect that this attitude is institutionalized racism, and that neocons would be quite accepting of ACA if rewritten as white only and if it excluded gyn services. As it is, the recent research which found extended ER wait times for nonwhite CHILDREN says it all. Their ultimate goal? The Republic of Gilead. Cutting social services is not just about making it harder for poor people. That’s a side benefit. It’s about thinning the herd of useless eaters. Lack of health care? More culling of the weak. Remember the GOP debate with Ron Paul Two Minute Hate the crowd was whooping Let him die about a hypothetical man with no access to health care. Ironically, the man responsible for getting Ron Paul into politics did die from lung disease (I think. can’t be arsed to look frankly) for lack of money. If you haven’t read The Handmaids Tale read it and decide for yourself.
Cutting social services is not just about making it harder for poor people. That’s a side benefit. It’s about thinning the herd of useless eaters. I disagree. I think it’s about forcing poor people into a position where they have to accept any job, any working conditions, because there are no other resources for them to fall back on. With ACA, a greater number of people will be less dependent on employers for one of life’s essentials–health care, allowing more people the freedom to walk away (obviously not all or even most, but more). That’s one of the major reasons these assholes are opposed to any social programs that provide resources to poor people–it reduces the amount of desperation within the (potential) labor force. They don’t care if people die, but in my opinion what they want is to continue to enrich themselves and their buddies, as well as maintaining their power through white supremacy, patriarchy, etc.
That’s one of the major reasons these assholes are opposed to any social programs that provide resources to poor people–it reduces the amount of desperation within the (potential) labor force. They don’t care if people die, but in my opinion what they want is to continue to enrich themselves and their buddies, as well as maintaining their power through white supremacy, patriarchy, etc Yeah my vision is over the top per usual. : I concur with you.
There was a revolution–or we thought there was. It was the elections of 2006 and 2008. It feels like a long time ago now, but at the time it felt like a biiig breath of fresh air, especially since the 2006 midterms came not that long after we saw people drown on their rooftops because the feds couldn’t get their act together. Then Big Money (*cough*Koch*cough*cough*) fought back with this Tea Party astroturf movement in 2010 and we’ve been struggling to keep the lights on and water in the pipes ever since.
Are you familiar with Puritanism and the concept of the Elect? Because I really, really believe that’s part of the mindset here. Basically, the theory goes: God knows everything, so God knows, when you’re born, if you’re getting into Heaven or not. What you do during your life doesn’t matter–you can’t “make up” for your sins because if you were Heaven-bound you wouldn’t have sinned in the first place. So, you never know if you’re a Heavenbound–virtuous–person. The things you do are irrelevant. So you must look elsewhere for signs of being part of the Elect. God loves the Elect, and will reward them here on Earth. Now, Earthly rewards don’t necessarily mean you’re going to Heaven, but it’s a strong indicator. And since you have signs of being Heavenbound you must behave in a manner more according to God’s will, since you are obviously special. So, the reverse of that is that the people life craps on–well, God probably hates them. They’re probably going to Hell. And since there’s no forgiveness, a fuckup–like addiction, say–is pretty much a neon red sign screaming I AM WORKING FOR SATAN AND I SUCK. Note also that very, very few are the Elect; Puritanism holds that most people are going to Hell, so they expect life to crap on most people. This is not a surprise. This is a culture where charity and and alms would be viewed with deep suspicion as helping useless sinners consume God’s gifts to the moral and the Elect. And God gets really pissed when people squander his gifts on assholes, and you feel comfortable saying this, and assuming whatever you do is right because God has fucking chosen you, ergo you must be right. You can’t be wrong. In addition, if you’re one of those not chosen by God, it’s on you to look at those who are and do what they’re doing and pray hard that God will gift you with his bounty as a sign of his favor. You aren’t given this with mortal hands, but with Godly ones. It’s meaningless if it doesn’t happen through the direct will of God. So, this creates a culture deeply suspicious of charity and aid, suspicious of those who receive aid, and have a fear of being given aid. As well as a ridiculous amount of respect for those who have Earthly success, as people who are somehow “better” or “more right”. And this has been regurgitated in a multitude of forms over the past couple hundred years, but Evangelical Christianity and the overall American outlook and work ethic is informed by this idea. So, that’s my theory, anyway. I’m not really familiar with the early colonization process of Canada, but I get a feeling we had different kinds of cultists informing our early cultural development. I also fully admit that there may be some fine points of Puritanism I may be missing, so take this whole theory with a grain of salt–I’m going off my high school AP English Unit on early American writings. “Sinners in the hands of an angry God” and all that.
Off-topic, I never understood why this whole concept didn’t create a culture of “you might as well do whatever you like, because it’s already decided that you’re going to heaven or hell already and that’s that.” I didn’t understand it in high school, it made no more sense to me in college, and I still don’t understand it. I mean, if you’re motivated by a punishment/reward moral system, and the punishment/reward part is already pre-determined…what exactly is motivating you, again? I understand historically what happened, it just makes no emotional sense to me and I doubt it ever will.
As I’ve always understood it, predestination’s the lose-lose: you can’t gain admittance to heaven if you’re marked for hell, however good you are, but you can lose your elect status and end up in hell.
The doctrine of predestination as playing its part in this makes sense to me. Always thought Calvin was a particularly nasty piece of work.
I went to a Lutheran school and had to read some of his writings. His whole essay on adultery turns into this weird, scary sexual rant about how much he hates women and he sounds like a TV serial killer in a cellar full of victim trophies. It made me feel ill to read.
I read once that in Geneva, under his rule, a child was beheaded for striking zir father. I don’t know if it was apocryphal or true, but it’s the sort of thing that wouldn’t surprise me about Calvin, y’know? Even if his poisonous legacy wasn’t still with us, the whole French Wars of Religion is enough to put him and his disgusting doctrine in the unforgivable basket for me.
and he sounds like a TV serial killer in a cellar full of victim trophies. It made me feel ill to read. Content Note: Ayn Rand worship of a serial killer http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/19/968385/-Hero-or-Monster-Ayn-Rand-and-William-Hickman Remember folks the “pro-life” Tea terrorists worship Ayn Rand.
Content Note: murder This is more through link. http://michaelprescott.freeservers.com/romancing-the-stone-cold.html
So, that’s my theory, anyway. I’m not really familiar with the early colonization process of Canada, but I get a feeling we had different kinds of cultists informing our early cultural development. Ours was more based on ‘Holy shit, look at all these trees and beavers. Cha-Ching. Also, jesus it’s cold.’ Exploitation of resources and fuck anyone who got in the way.
Hoping, hoping, hoping I still get my SSDI payment…I need to get my psych medications refilled on the 9th. If I don’t, and don’t have enough money still in my checking account to cover it, I will be back to full blown psychosis by the 13th or 14th…
Good luck, Annaleigh. I know what it’s like to be counting the days you have left and checking your bank account and hoping there’s still time left for the meds to arrive in the mail. It’s terrifying. I’m crossing my fingers for you.
I have a med appt tomorrow – which I can’t afford with the shutdown, but which I have to keep because I need my meds renewed. It is extremely unnerving.
I heard that SS and SSDI and food stamps would continue getting paid; WIC and new applications for SS and SSDI would be put on hold. You will hopefully be fine. But you might want to call your doctor and pharmacist and see if they can implement some kind of emergency measures in case the unthinkable happens. Good luck.
I’ve been told that things like Social Security and SSDI will still be paid. I really hope so, because I have no idea how we’ll pay the house note if roommate’s dad doesn’t get his SS check. Roomie and I don’t make enough to cover all the bills, the food and the house. *sympathy hugs* if you want them.
Any chance of a sympathetic doctor giving you some samples? I’ve got a large stock of Cymbalta from my doc to hold me over until the generic comes out in December.
I’m not sure how workable it is, but I’m absolutely happy to loan you the money if you don’t get your payment. If you’re interested, maybe the mods can put us in touch? We can figure out a paypal thing or something. Same deal with tinffoil hattie. If the government fails us, we should be helping each other.
I’m not sure how workable it is, but I’m absolutely happy to loan you the money if you don’t get your payment. If you’re interested, maybe the mods can put us in touch? We can figure out a paypal thing or something. Same deal with tinffoil hattie. If the government fails us, we should be helping each other. This brought a few tears to my eyes…you’re a very kind person.
I appreciate it, but the people in this community have helped me deal with some ridiculously difficult life issues. I’m a much better and healthier person because of the people in this thread. I haven’t even begun to pay any of that back.
*big hugs to everyone* and thank you thank you thank you, Pretty Amiable. *hugs if wanted* Huge relief today, I got my payment today. So I’m going to be ok, which is good because I had less than $200 in my account before the SSDI payment. I hope everyone else gets some good news too. If Hattie still ends up needing help and someone does something with PayPal, I’ll do what I can to pitch in. Will probably get yelled at by mother (who keeps reminding me I’m not rich) but oh well. 😛
About Tommy Twinkles saying And not trying to belittle anyone’s experience, but all government employees affected will eventually get their backpay. Government employees who are working during the shutdown will get paid (eventually). Government employees who are not working during the shutdown have to hope that Congress will decide to pay them for their time spent not working.
Please don’t assume everyone will eventually get their money. My husband wasn’t furloughed due to the essential nature of his job, but he has no guarantee he will be paid beyond this next paycheck.
Adding to the list of people who will not be reimbursed: any private businesses and their laid off private employees reliant on shutdown government services.