In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

#SolidarityIsForWhiteWomen secondary thread

Jill

In this other thread, there’s a place for discussion of the #solidarityisforwhitewomen hashtag, Hugo Schwyzer, and accountability / abuse / justice in feminism. This particular thread is a place to discuss the hashtag, feminism, accountability, race and all of those things without a discussion of Hugo, suicide or self-harm, as those topics are triggering to many of our community members and I want to make sure that this discussion is open and accessible to everyone.

Here’s a link to the #solidarityisforwhitewomen hashtag. It was started by Mikki Kendall (@karnythia). Here’s the Storify for background. Mikki also wrote this piece in the Guardian explaining the hashtag.

Please take care in this thread to abide by the commenting guidelines. If you want to make a comment you believe to be potentially triggering, please do it in the thread below this one.

135 thoughts on #SolidarityIsForWhiteWomen secondary thread

  1. It would really be nice if white feminists understood what their privilege is, and understood how to shut the fuck up and listen. It happens everywhere. Here, other feminist sites, male ally sites, even on WoC feminist sites (though those comments get shut down at least)

    I no longer have the spoons or the give a fuck to discuss it with them. They’ll just have to get over it when I write them off as racist and call them racists. They’ll either listen, or they won’t but at least I won’t have to deal with it.

  2. My question is: where do we go from here? The optimistic part of me thinks that people will now be willing to listen. The pessimistic part believes that few will want to do the hard work to look outside their own privilege.

    How many repetitions of this same refrain do we have to go through before the lightbulb finally goes off?

  3. Obviously this is an issue I’m sensitive to due to Mrs. Fat’s heritage, so I really like this comment:

    Duchess Gummybuns*
    @Natis
    #SolidarityIsForWhiteWomen when Latinas are non existent in the feminist movement.

  4. Oh and when woc ask you to handle their experiences with racism in a certain way, do that. Don’t explain away why you didn’t and don’t justify it later. And we don’t need to hear non woc comments on how they think it was handled right when we are saying it wasn’t.

  6. There are a lot of white feminists who were unaware before who are now listening. Their eyes and ears are open and they want to learn. Now is the time to inform and educate. Some people will be changed.

    It shouldn’t have happened this way but there is an opportunity here. I’m happy to see that its not going to waste.

    1. There was no reason to be unaware. Actively not listening was required. People were literally shouting it from every direction. You had to work not to know.

      1. I absolutely agree with you. I’m not making excuses for them. Ignoring the struggles of WOC/POC in order to maintain or advance your status is blatant racism. There’s no excuse for any of it. I’m just saying that there are a lot of people who have finally been “slapped in the face” with their own racism and want to change. I’m glad that people are taking the opportunity to either listen and get educated or share their stories and educate others.

    2. I’d like to believe that, but I don’t see much reason to. The real test will be the next time WOC call out a prominent white feminist for something problematic. What will the reaction be? Will you (general you) immediately jump in to defend her, or will you finally accept that WOC actually know a hell of a lot more than white people about racism? Time will tell.

  7. Reposting this for those not reading the other thread-

    Stop brushing this off as white privilege. It’s not white privilege. It’s racism. I’ve noticed that white feminists and other “allies” use WP as a pillow to land on when they’re been racist. You can’t soften this. Not for your benefit or ours.

    You were being racist.

    Your WP didn’t make you choose to ignore WoC. Racism did.

    Your WP didn’t make you attack WoC. Your racism did.

    Your WP didn’t make you abandon WoC. Your racism did.

    Your WP didn’t make you excuse your racism away with nonsense about being fooled. Or mental illness. Or wanting to believe in Change.

    Your racism did that. You did that. White washing it (pun intended) as white privilege only lets us know you’re not sincere and don’t truly grasp the depth of the issue.

    The issue is racism.

    Apologize for that. Start working on that. Stop making it the “lesser evil” white privilege.

    1. I’m curious what definition of white privilege you are using to make this distinction. Actually curious, not snarky curious.

      1. The use of wp as an excuse to have not listened to woc. It’s not wp, it’s racism. But instead of admitting the choice to ignore woc was racism at work, it’s being blamed on wp luxury of giving him the benefit of the doubt. No. It’s old fashioned plain old racism that had them ignoring woc.

      2. yes,
        The way I distinguish them: White privilege is something a white person has all the time. Even the most anti-racist white person has it. White privilege is what gets a white applicant a job over a black applicant with a better record.

        Racism is decisions made, consciously or unconsciously, that privilege white people. The white applicant in the job scenario above may not have exhibited racism (ze probably didn’t know about the other applicant), but the hiring manager certainly did. For another example, mandatory minimums are not “white privilege” policies, they’re RACIST ones.

        So that is why it is racism, not white privilege, to ignore warnings made by women of color, and why acknowledging one’s white privilege is a start, but not nearly an end, to eradicating learned racism.

        2. So basically, white privilege is the symptom, racism is the disease, right? It’s all those racist actions, choices, attitudes, etc. that maintain an environment that favors whites, and this favoring=privilege.

        3. Forgot to add that it doesn’t stop there—it’s a cycle. White privilege then begets more racism. So the disease/symptom analogy kind of breaks down there (since symptoms don’t make a disease worse).

          (Not trying to whitesplain or hold this up as absolute truth—just another way to possibly distinguish them. If you disagree, then I’m open to that. My thoughts on racism and white privilege are not really relevant to this discussion, after all.)

      3. Maybe it’s useful to think of white privilege as reaping the benefits of *someone else’s* racism (whether you want to or not). Because the white person getting the job over a more qualified POC isn’t due to something in the water or some external sociological force–it’s due to the hiring manager’s racism. Same with mandatory minimums: racist lawmakers, white people benefit. Name your privilege and you can trace it back to someone, somewhere along the line who was racist enough to create it. I hope people will start to get it a little more when those of us who have white privilege acknowledge that, while it is something we were born with and something we didn’t choose, we continue to have it only because other people continue to be racist. Letting it continue to exist is not a morally neutral action.

    2. Isn’t it white privilege that lets one’s actions be attributed to innocent misunderstandings due to white privilege rather than to racism?

      2. If I’m parsing this correctly, I’m gonna go with: Yes, I think it is. You’re describing the “She’s such a Nice (White) Lady, she might make mistakes around race, but would never do anything actually racist!” phenomenon, correct?

        This next part’s not actually a response to Pseudonym; thinking about the Nice White Lady phenomenon just spurred some Thoughts:
        Many if not most people are nice people. It’s not enough. I find that many aspects of widespread institutional -isms have to actively be dug out of one’s brain; that’s how they stay institutional. Go ahead and re-read 101-level stuff (but don’t ask other people to do your 101 for you; that’s rude). Read the work of people who make you feel defensive; it takes a little time to figure out if your defensiveness is justified or not. And when you screw up, I think it actually makes it easier if you label your screwup accurately: It guides you in how to apologize well, figure out where you went wrong, and not do it again. (Denying you screwed up at all is apparently the easiest, but as feminists, we aspire to be better than that, right?)

    3. THANK YOU. Privilege is something you have. Racism is something you do. Ignoring or excusing bigotry when it is pointed out to you is inexcusable willful blindness.

        1. Yep. I typed out 10 different responses on Twitter then said fuck it. Racists aren’t worth it.

        3. I DID make a snarky slightly veiled comment on the solidarityisforwhitewomen hashtag though. Heh.

        8. I bought my soon to be here granddaughter a onesie that says You are beginning to damage my calm. Cracks me up just to look at it.

        10. It is at times like these that I wish we could have a “tell me your fandoms” thread so I’d know who else likes what…

          I thought Firefly fandom was naturally assumed unless specified otherwise.

  9. Incidentally, I wanted to post this in a place where it wouldn’t be buried under posts instantly- I was wrong to be pissed at Jill for not responding to the criticism there. My knee-jerk response was that she had posted her essay and then ducked out when the responses were negative, but it was just that; knee-jerk. Thanks to the people (Maccavity, Pheeno, Donna) that pointed this out.

  10. Is Feministe going to do more to host and to prioritize writers who are women of color from now on?

    As far as I can tell from my outside perspective, it seems like that is one of the primary concerns here, along with calling out other prominent white feminists who minimize the concerns of women of color. Is that accurate?

    2. Honestly, I don’t think that’s going to work because at the end of the day Jill runs the blog and she’s not a WOC. Full stop. So it’s on white feminists to seek out WOC run blogs and read them and learn. That’s the only way. Feministe can support WOC bloggers as best it can, but it will only be an “add on” and that can only do so much.

      1. While the most power on this particular site will always lie with a white woman, I do not think that means that it’s impossible for a meaningful collaborative effort to be successful here. True allyship (not just in name and for cookies only) could still be possible. But it won’t be easy and it certainly could have the potential for ugliness.

        1. I don’t think it’s impossible to have a meaningful chunk of WOC contributions in the site content, either. I mean, Feministe manages decent coverage of LGB issues, and good moderation re: homophobia (at least aside from that one time with Bizarro Fertility Dude when I think everyone was too gobsmacked to act). It needs tighter moderation, maybe an explicit bullet-pointed list of “this shit needs not to be said” somewhere (e.g. “if you bring up black murderers to excuse white murderers you are being racist and STOP).

    3. One WOC blogging isn’t going to cut it. And the reason I say that is because I remember quite vividly what happened to Chally and Maia. If there is going to be a regular WOC blogger, then (in my opinion) there needs to be at least a couple of WOC mods as well because the racism comes out STRONG in these comment threads when the blogger is a WOC and the current mods (who are doing a pretty good job and I actually really love how moderation has tightened up around here in general) are not going to cut it because they can’t always recognize racial fuckery when they see it (although they can damn sure be expected to learn).

      Basically, there needs to be a collaboration between the current mods and bloggers of this site and mods and bloggers of color. And even then I see the WOC eventually being expected and abandoned to do all of the anti-racist heavy lifting, cuz that’s just how this shit goes; one thought I have to prevent that would be a regular open thread in which only WOC (bloggers, mods, and commentators) can discuss how they feel the progress is going, and white folks can just read and absorb and listen, followed by another (possibly heavily-moderated) open thread in which everyone can discuss how they feel about how things are moving on this site, as far as racial intersectionality goes.

      These are just my off-the-cuff thoughts. History has shown that having a token WOC blogger won’t cut it, will burn the blogger out, and will actually result in WOC becoming even MORE fed up with this place. Basically I think that if Jill is going to be serious about making this site a safer place for WOC, then there are going to have to be completely new protocols and faces and collaborative efforts in place to make that happen.

      2. One WOC blogging isn’t going to cut it.

        I think you’re right. (I don’t remember Chally, but I did see some of what happened to Maia.) On an infinitely smaller scale, I think the same thing is true of having even a white trans woman blog here (never mind a trans WOC) — including the fact that any trans woman who did so would either be ignored (which is what happened when a trans woman did a couple of guest posts last summer or the year before), or would become an obvious target for supposedly not belonging here. (As I have been, more than once, just for commenting here.) Although it would be great to have someone like Janet Mock here; I know that she is something of a pioneer in having mainstream exposure as a trans WOC (more so than TransGriot has ever had), but I have no doubt that there are plenty of others who would be just as amazing.

      3. You make some very good points, and I love your suggestions for giving more space for WoC to be heard here. If WoC here feel that having the WoC bloggers, mods, and WoC-only threads that you suggest are the way to go, as a white commenter/lurker here I would commit to reading those threads and listening, as well as to stepping up more in non-WoC threads when I see shit going down, which I’ll work on starting now.

        I don’t mean ‘yes, have them so I can learn!’ – I mean only, if that’s what WoC here want to do, then I’ll do what I can to support them in that and to listen. Because even in my relatively short time here at feministe I have seen some really shitty treatment of WoC here, and I haven’t stepped up enough to support them. So if an opportunity to really hear from WoC regularly, not just in the ordinary commenting on threads but also in WoC-centric threads and posts and from WoC mods, were to happen here, I will read and listen to them as part of working further on dismantling my racism. I’d love to see serious work on including WoC happen here and to do what I can to support that.

        In the meantime, I do want to say sorry to you and pheeno and mac and trees and any other WoC I haven’t been vocally supportive enough of here for that. Explicit racist comments can be called out, but it’s much harder to call out the sort of silent lurking that – intentionally or not – allows that shit to flourish because white people like me leave it to WoC to deal with. I apologize. I want to – I will – do better. (And if I’ve fucked up in anything I’ve said in this comment, apologies for that too.)

      4. Perhaps locking down the thread for a few hours or a day after publishing would help? I recall a few years ago a summer guest blogger blocked comments in response to the amount of ablism she was experiencing in the comments. It ticked people off, but it was effective (in my mind anyway) at focusing on the issues she was raising. I’m not sure whether locking comments permanently is good or bad in the long run, but a middle ground could be locking them for a period of time so that people would be required to reflect before posting. It might cause us to engage with the substance of the post rather than diving in to arguments on side issues.

        1. Perhaps, but remember the result the last time somebody locked down a thread to prevent comments. I won’t be specific because it would violate the ground rules of this particular thread.

        2. This seems a good solution. Automod at the first sign of trouble (>1 thread on a derail, personal accusations) is also helpful. Sure, it slows conversations some, but it also makes them a hell of a lot more civil.

        3. Just to quickly repeat myself on this thread, since I was the one to bring up your final post there: I hope I didn’t give the impression of holding you up as a martyr of some kind; I still follow your writing at Zero At The Bone when I can, and I know you’re still doing awesome things and weren’t silenced, but I don’t read Hoyden About Town and wasn’t aware of your statement there. I am sorry for misrepresenting your position on staff as a blogger here and didn’t mean to in any way diminish your contributions by erroneously calling it “guest blogging.” In short, I am sorry for quoting your final post in a way in which you never intended it.

        4. “Yes, I found the experience damaging in a lot of ways, but I didn’t die and go to feminist heaven. I’m still here, working.”

          1) Feminist Heaven!!!!! 2) I’m so glad you’re still working. ^_^

        5. Argh, this was a terrible post from me. I’ve tried to do better on the other thread, but in short, I quoted you in an ignorant, appropriative way and should not have done that (as you and other commenters rightly said). I’m sorry for what I did and I’m sorry for being defensive. This is me taking a seat before I draw even more undue attention to myself.

  11. I haven’t read nearly enough about this whole situation to really understand it, but from what I have read, I’d really like to see these things.

    (1) A Feministe post which collects links to all the descriptions of the current situation, posted by the WOC involved–and which also has a collection of links to WOC-written descriptions of similar situations. I know for a lot of people who have been here longer than I have, or read a greater variety of Feminist blogs, have a much more specific understanding of the history involved.

    (2) A weekly guest post by a women of color.

    (3) A weekly feature about making feminism more intersectional. Obviously this should have significantly less than 100% overlap with the guest posts. You could use our favorite #solidarityisforwhitewomen tweets as prompts; there’s enough there to last a long time.

    1. I would love to see Feministe do something akin to Slate Magazine’s TV club where each week feminists of all sorts get together to discuss their take on TV shows, movies, music, news, books and pop culture.

      Everyone can have blind spots when it comes to oppression that doesn’t affect them. What a way to get a multi-faced picture of what is happening in the world?

  12. Honestly, I think that there should be an open WOC-only thread opened up here in the VERY near future so that we can discuss our needs, grievances, ideas, thoughts, links to information we consider important, or whatever else without getting derailed by important-but-irrelevant animal rights issues or white women going on dishonest twitter rants while trying to earn anti-racist cookies. I feel that we need our own room right now.

    4. as a privileged white mostly lurker i’d love to see this as well, first of all because it is the right thing to have happen for the WoC on this blog (as they have requested) and second i think it would be helpful for white feminists to have a space where they know the ground rule is to sit on the sidelines and listen.

      i see this as a win-win. it’s a win for the WoC to have their own space and a win for white feminists to learn more about how we can do a better job achieving an intersectional space.

        1. Oh noes! White skin isn’t opening a door to ww! TIME TO PANIC AND GET MAD! It’s so unfair to be denied forcing my special white opinion about race onto people who know more!!!!

        2. [Moderator note: this thread is for discussion of a long history of white feminists talking over the top of non-white feminists. You are not welcome to talk over the top of that discussion in this thread. If you wish to make a critique, take it to #spillover.]

      2. I was going to be mad about the segregated threads, but instead I got distracted with how I didn’t get pulled over by the cops, didn’t get looked at suspiciously by the store clerk, *did* share a color with all the magazine covers, and did get taken seriously when I recently reported a theft. I know things like basic safety and respect and privilege don’t compare to one whole comment thread, but I’ll try to soldier whitely on. Or at least cry into a bottle so macavitykitsune can have it. ;p

  13. [Content note: Discussion of HS. This is a designated non-HS thread; please take any further discussion to the primary thread.]

    I am reacting to a comment in the other thread in which someone who knows HS in person as a student expressed shock, ignorance, and some trauma/disbelief about learning that he is despicable and has expressed/done despicable things. This commenter was criticized for not already knowing. There is so much frustration on the other thread that folks in power have not been paying attention to the issues they are perpetuating through their own blogs, and I do not want to undermine that very real criticism. But it would help other readers a lot to get some background and some patience.

    It’s a minor point, but I want to make a reminder and a request. Can future posters and commenters make an effort to give some strong, clear synthesis of what they are talking about? The internet moves very fast, and for those of us without tons of internet access, or with different priorities and interests, a lot of the history that seems stunningly clear to those deep in the comment sections is completely lost to those who skim front pages or don’t read all the comment threads. Yes, it is really f’d up to ignore awful things you should & have access to know about (i.e. critiques of your work on your own blog), but there are also legitimate reasons for ignorance and a certain privilege in hoarding knowledge while criticizing those who don’t know. It’s not possible for all of us to know.

    Speaking personally, I don’t follow internet feminism people/gossip/relationships in detail, though I read a lot of internet feminist writing. I want to know about dipshits like HS so I can be a more critical reader–so I appreciate when these issues become frontpage posts– but I don’t have the time or ability or energy to engage and follow every comment section. Take the bloggers to task, please, but have some sympathy for the readers who are behind the times and clue us in. That goes for the post authors as well as the commenters who are in the know.

    1. I am reacting to a comment in the other thread in which someone who knows HS in person as a student expressed shock, ignorance, and some trauma/disbelief about learning that he is despicable and has expressed/done despicable things. This commenter was criticized for not already knowing.

      I just wanted to say that I agree with you that that was an unfair criticism. (By K. Rawls, I believe.) Some people are new to these discussions, and to “Internet feminism” in general.

      1. Darn right. Finding the facts currently requires sifting through tons of articles and comments, on multiple sites, spanning years.

        It’d be handy if the HS Wikipedia page could summarize some of the basics, considering this is an international shitstorm. But, whoops, it doesn’t. In fact, it’s currently under review for deletion entirely.

    2. As a fellow lurker, I hear you, BUT, this thread was set up explicitly as a space to discuss without any mention of HS. By bringing up his situation and the reaction of someone who knew him in person, you are threatening that safe space. Please stop. The mods did not set up a second thread for the purposes of complaining about the discussion on the first thread.

        1. … and sorry for the double post. instead of mods I meant:
          “We need a giraffe here”

          [Thank you for sending a giraffe alert ~ mods]

  14. My #solidarityisforwhitewomen goal is to be less lurky and more vocal. I don’t have a blog, but I can certainly comment more than once in a blue moon.

    This is relevant to the broader issues of racism in feminism: One of the most common clashes I see is a white feminist seemingly ignoring a story of a wrong done to a woman of color, and then stammering “I didn’t think it was my place to comment.” Everyone who can should comment! Those are feminist issues! We just shouldn’t assume we know every nuance, that’s all. It’s generally okay to discuss basic stuff when you’re white yourself. That’s not white (hah!) knighting. POC shouldn’t have to do all the work, any more than women should have to do all the work on explaining sexism. Just do your homework first.

    1. Hmm. This is a good point, though there have definitely been conversations I’ve stayed out of here on Feministe because I didn’t think there was anything useful I could contribute – for instance, the recent blog post about political blackness in the UK desi community. I couldn’t see how, as a white American, there was anything I could really contribute. But it’s true that a lot of posts about “international” issues get ten comments, while fairly insignificant posts about, like, NYT profiles of three rich white ladies get 200+ comments. And that is a problem.

      1. Thats a good point. What percentage of the content here is the comments? I’d say 85-90 percent minimum. It’s a big part of what makes Feministe. Most of the thinking, reflecting, learning and idea building happens here. And it’s comments that generate other comments. Once a discussion gets rolling those who thought they had nothing to say may realize differently. And getting called out? For those of us anons the worst thing that can happen is we learn while a random interwebs handle looks bad for awhile. But if 85-90 percent of the comments are in threads focused on white middle class cis issues then that becomes 70-80 percent of the content here regardless of what the bloggers themselves choose to cover.

  17. this is separate from the current comment thread, but very much related. i wanted to share this blog post i came across today. this is my area of work – environmental justice w/ particular focus on supporting the first nations women led opposition to canadian tar sands. i think what is written here has a direct correlation to what we’ve been talking about.

    Indigenous Women: Never Idle

    here is an excerpt:

    The mainstream feminist movement’s fixation with gender equality and a liberal discourse focused on individual choice (and often, consumption) has marginalized a more systemic feminist framework rooted in a paradigm of land, community, intersectionality, and responsibility. This marginalization is not unintentional; it has in part been legitimized through a Eurocentric feminist discourse that perpetuates the global imperialist myth that certain cultural identities and traditions are either apathetic or antithetical to women’s rights.

    Yet Indigenous women unapologetically articulate how community autonomy and self-determination is intrinsic to gender justice struggles. Anishinaabekwe activist Winona LaDuke writes, “Most indigenous women understand that our struggle as women is integrally related to the struggle of our nations for control of our land, resources, and destinies… It is not about civil rights for us. It is not about equal access to something. It is about ‘Get off my neck.’”

    read the whole thing; it’s quite good. i hope i haven’t violated any netiquette or site rules by linking to this blog.

    1. Trishka, that’s a really interesting link! Please please promote it on the Selfless Wednesday link thread though, so people who aren’t necessarily interested in Schwyzerbattle vol 534955 can also read it!

  18. To everyone who commented on the other thread re: my perspective – thanks! Though I think I did way less than pheeno or tmc.

    I wanted to bring up an incomplete list of what can be done by commenters/mods/bloggers re: helping this be a safer space:

    1) Be giraffe-happy. Seriously. If it looks like a duck and talks like a duck, you don’t need WOC/POC verification of duckness to go “uh, mods, look at this please”.

    2) Decentralise the US experience. Sure, I know Feministe is a NA-focused blog, but there’s people commenting here from lots of places, and around the eighth time someone decides to assign crackeriness to me because I have Insufficiently Brown Ideas is when I start popping the Tums, you know?

    3) There’s a lot of really good interrogation of classism in the comments here. Integrating race into those analyses shouldn’t be difficult.

    4) In line with #2 – don’t assume you’re talking to a white person. PLEASE. (Most of the regulars are good at that, but eesh.)

    5) Don’t assume all non-white people here are black, either.

    That’s all I’ve got for now…but I dunno. Thoughts, anyone?

    1. “Don’t assume all non-white people here are black, either.”

      Now I’m nervous to read all the comments. And I usually come to Feministe to *avoid* reading ignorant comments. :-/

      1. The tl;dr of the other thread:

        1) Regular commenters having productive discussion
        2) Bunch of former commenters turn up, derail everything in sight
        3) Former commenters actively ignore and erase WOC on the thread
        4) One former commenter gets outright racist, goes on a day-long Twitter whinge when called out on it, makes it all about word choice and semantics, erases my race repeatedly.
        5) WOC commenters get pissed off, myself included/primarily at this point, because I”m the only one stupid enough not to give up yet.
        6) An entire vineyard’s worth of white whine happens, because that’s what this thread needs, more defense of white feminists and their bullshit.

        You’re not missing shit. I seriously want a different thread at this point just so I’m not wasting all my energy defending myself against charges of ignorance of race issues(!).

      2. Ha, that’s probably a good idea. When I see a blog post racking up over a hundred comments in just a couple hours, I know most of it is just going to be a mess of tired, old arguments rehashed with different usernames.

    2. I wonder if it would be a good idea to–only with permission, of course–highlight a WoC/anti-racist blog each month, linking to it, of course, on posts throughout that month, with discussion of the ways in which white feminism has marginalized the issues being discussed, how white mainstream feminism presents/effaces the issues, and how WoC/anti-racist activists handle/discuss them. Sort of a way to become more self-conscious of which issues we discuss here and how, with the caveat that we strongly recommend not flooding the comments sections at the linked blogs, but shutting up and reading/learning.

      Obviously, ONLY with the permission of the bloggers being linked to.

      I don’t know, I’m just floating it as an idea, and I can see how it could go horribly wrong, too. So maybe it’s a dreadful one, and obviously, should go without saying that I can see exactly why WoC/anti-racist blogs wouldn’t want to be a part of any such thing.

      1. Why use other blogs? Why not just regularly feature *key word – regular* multiple woc/anti-racist activists? Using other blogs sounds an awful lot like inviting someone over to dinner. Are woc/anti-racist activists just guests to the feminist movement? ( I know there’s a quote about woc being guests to the feminist movement, but I can’t find it atm. HALP)

        2. I was thinking that it could be harder to convince WoC to blog here, particularly if they already have their own blogs to run and maintain.

        3. Okay, then how about we recruit student WOC writers to blog regularly about… whatever matters? That’s how Jill got me to write for Feministe. I emailed her about internship stuff, and she thought my writing was promising enough that she encouraged me to keep at it, through guest-blogging (which incidentally is the only reason I quit centuries of lurking and began actively participating in this community).

        5. That could work, though I foresee a bad dynamic developing if the WoC bloggers are all young ‘uns. It would be nice to have the perspective of people who’ve been around the block a few times as well.

        6. Well… maybe my perception is skewed, but I feel a lot of prominent WOC bloggers are prominent precisely because they’ve been around for a while. Whilst we certainly shouldn’t ignore them if they choose to post here, it would be nice to cultivate some up ‘n coming talent, in-house.

        7. I see what you’re saying. My concern is that the commentariat has been around the block–it’s generally not just not 101, but pretty advanced stuff, and it would be bad if the WoC bloggers were all young, inexperienced, and could possibly be intimidated by the commentariat. But I’m sure that the other mods could help nurture and mentor them as well, so it’s not like I think it’s a dreadful idea or anything. I just think we’d all have to consciously not let it be a “throw the young newbie bloggers to the lions” scenario.

        8. Yeah, I see what you mean. I recall when I wrote my first post for Jill, most commenters were complimentary, probably out of politeness. But a couple were openly mocking of my know-it-all attitude, an experience I definitely learned from. I’ve had mates since who wanted to post on Feministe, but only after I made sure they covered all their bases (no ableist slang, think of non-heteronormative relationships, etc). We can probably spare a few mods to cultivate the young’uns (and protect them from lions and themselves).

      2. is it that the woc already on this blog are not interested in posting things? I fully understand that, if so… I’m much more of a commenter in places than a primary post blogger myself. Still, though, if there is interest among the very impressive commentariat, the woc who have stuck it out in this space, and formed their own connections, I would start there.

        In fact, if I was a nice white lady feminist, I would turn the entire project over to them, and allow them to decide ways best to incorporate not only their own views, but views of other woc/poc into this space. This will most likely always be a white space…but it doesn’t have to be *as* white a space. Or as hostile a one to woc as it has been traditionally.

        /2 cents

        2. Right, because everyone knows too many women out there are voicing their thoughts and speaking their minds. We especially shouldn’t expect feminists to trumpet their trumpets on a feminist blog…

          Look, mate, if you already comment all the time, you might as well post a post or something!

        3. Well, I think you should. Toot your own horn, that is 😉

          Not, mind you, that others haven’t been tooting it all throughout these threads, complimenting you (and others) on the points you’ve brought up, etc. I think you would make an excellent poster here.

          Of course, there is also the issue of… um… I guess it’s being in a “home” space. As everyone should know by now, it’s pretty difficult to “diversify” an already established white space– particularly one with this reputation, but really any– after the fact. Having guest bloggers in isn’t the way to do it, really. I mean, there is nothing wrong with guest bloggers of various interests and cultures, etc, but they will always be the “guests” and not the “hosts” inviting in interesting guest bloggers.

          having a core group of woc, in-house bloggers/planners/strategizers/interesting site finders, so on (not everyone has to post) who are an integral part of the site itself immediately eliminates much of that. And yes, as mentioned above.. it must be more than one, and especially there must be woc moderators.

          Plus, people already (for the most part, i think?) see you and pheeno and others as full-rounded people, as opposed to exotic exhibits? Anti-racism talk, for sure, but also fandom and whatever else, so half that battle has already been mostly won.

          Anyway, just jabbering on here. I do hope they start at home, with the woc who are already here and have been here regularly, before searching outward, tho.

        4. Aww, thanks ^///^

          A core group would be awesome to have, and a WOC mod would be really amazing to be able to rely on. Not that the mods don’t do a good job of banninating the outright racists (particularly lately) but the subtler stuff goes under the radar all the time.

          I guess mostly I just feel like I’d be intruding if I asked to post here, as opposed to being a commenter. I dunno. I have weird lines sometimes. -_- Though tbh the persons I’d like to see post are pheeno and trees and Aaliyah, who are both pretty marginalised and excellent communicators.

          The idea of having WOC here who are actively engaged in finding/recommending other WOC who might not be well-known (or even known period) is a fine, fine one! I’m going to toddle over to the other thread and post about that, if you don’t feel like doing so yourself.

        5. No, you can go ahead and post it in the other thread! i can barely find my way around this one 😉

          I guess mostly I just feel like I’d be intruding if I asked to post here, as opposed to being a commenter. I dunno. I have weird lines sometimes. -_- Though tbh the persons I’d like to see post are pheeno and trees and Aaliyah, who are both pretty marginalised and excellent communicators.

          well, I think all of y’all are great, from what I’ve seen so far (am not familiar with Aaliyah, but am positive she’s great, too.) And I, personally, would love to see pheeno and trees and tmc and Aaliyah (and you) and other woc posting here, or acting as part of the core group if they wanted to. Decision makers when it comes to invitations and finding others to post, or to point people too. I think there would be an added level of trust and, also, of… “got your back” ness, lol.

          I see talk about inviting students and young bloggers to guest post (I think it was)… there is no reason why their guest visit (should there be one) has to be an unpleasant experience.

        6. I actually think Feministe should aim toward a majority of WoC mod team. The problems with race have existed long enough that just one or two mods aren’t enough, the burnout levels are too high without a support system for the mods. I don’t think it is the sort of thing that can happen immediately, but it can easily be worked toward. And it would show a serious commitment to inclusivity.

        8. Speaking as a white Canadian cis woman lurker, I for one would be completely interested in reading posts by macavitykitsune, pheenobarbidoll, and other WOC, especially with (but not limited to) international perspectives. I would be completely interested in posts from trans* too. I like the suggestions of both soliciting guest posts from the regular commentariat and inviting in new young guest posters to gain valuable experience. WOC & trans* mods too so posters don’t get burned out. Basically liking all the suggestions for inclusivity. For whatever my opinion is worth.

        9. @Asleif:

          just a quick note – I think you forgot to put “people” or “women” after your first “trans*” there.

          And I’m all in favor of regular posts by WoC already in the community, like pheeno, mac, and others.

        11. @Mac, I know it’s a lot to ask, but I do believe it is something that ought to be put on the table. Feministe isn’t a safe place for WoC, and I honestly believe it won’t be unless they feel they have some power and control in the site. I’ve seen the same thing play out too many times here, and too many times repeatedly on other sites I have frequented in the past.

          Jill and the current blogging team cannot magnanimously and magically decide that Feministe is now a safe place for WoC, they need to cede some power and allow WoC to carve out their own safe place. Like with the WoC only thread, but on a larger scale.

          And now I feel like I’ve said “safe place” too many times. Anyway. It could easily be that not enough WoC would be interested in being a part of Feministe, because it is way too toxic. But I tend to think that if a community is really serious about social justice and they have massive cracks keep showing up in the same places, then obviously shit is broken and you need to come up with a new strategy besides just “listening”.

  19. Had no idea that this thoughtful thread would be here when I recently blogged about Harriet Tubman, Russell Simmons, Spike Lee, MLK, Jr., and Gandhi. Definitely needed are ideas like macavitykitsune’s, especially 4) and 5). I might add: 6) Don’t assume that everyone has a consistent or uncomplicated relationship to race, for example, multi-racial people with multi-cultural exposure.

    Some of us are multi-racial (like me) and from families that moved away from their roots where townspeople knew the racial history (and engaged in racist trauma) in hopes of “passing.” Just the idea of anybody “passing” for white and why it would be preferable to racist discrimination on a daily basis says volumes about the reality of racism and its tentacles in our minds.

    From “deep south” roots (USA) decades ago for reasons of seeming survival I became a childhood devotee of passing after KKK burned crosses in my grandmother’s yard and threw rocks and flaming sticks into windows one night that we escaped the backwoods way and did not go back. While living as a child in Japan after the KKK trauma, I experienced being an “outsider” to cultural norms, although no discrimination per se as POC. All of us have our individual stories, as part of the collective that is racism.

    Now many decades later I live in such a different community from the places growing up, without any familial roots here, and with little to add to the conversation about WOC/POC being discriminated against on the basis of race as an adult. I’m here to listen and learn. Also I honor the sheroes (heroes, too, when they didn’t discriminate against women within their race) from WOC/POC, because to triumph in the face of racism gives us all hope.

  20. Responding to a suggestion from macavitykitsune in the tertiary thread:

    A lot of times, when issues that affect WOC are being discussed, WOC are linked to in the comments, and these links are usually pretty stellar. However, because comments (particularly because comments on wanktastic thread) they get buried or ignored. I know I missed some links on the first thread until someone else replied and I happened to be looking while their comment was on the recent comments list.

    It seems to me that (particularly if those links contain roundups, etc), adding a “links from comments” section to the tail end of posts, either when they go up or when a modly one has the time, would be an effective way to highlight WOC work. Also, lots of people read articles but not comments. I realise that this is work for the mods, but…eh. It’s a suggestion.

    May I suggest that implementing this idea (which I think is a great one) would be much easier for the mods if the commentariat took a leaf from the Pharyngula playbook and riffed on it?

    Pharyngula regulars (aka The Horde) regularly make link-roundup posts in comments threads, sometimes linking to particularly perspicacious comments from that thread or related Pharyngula threads, often linking to stellar posts elsewhere on relevant issues. When such link-roundups appear in comments and are particularly useful additions/contrasts/critiques to points made in the OP (on Pharyngula these link round-ups are sometimes done to chastise/defuse a JAQing-off derailer, which is useful in a different way but probably best not added to the OP), then mods can add the particularly relevant links with attribution and a link to the commentor who put them together. If the rounder-upper makes sure to include at least 3 links, then their round-up will automatically go into the moderation queue and will be seen ASAP by a mod.

    So far as links buried in the primary #solidarityisforwhitewomen thread go, link roundups will probably be seen better in this secondary thread than that one, and make a clearer addition on this post than that one, simply because of the combination of post length and thread length. Links to posts specifically referencing HS in any detail would be problematic on this thread, but other links would be better here I think.

      1. Well, from memory of how it started to happen with the Horde, one person just started doing it because it seemed like a good idea, and then a few more took it up because they too thought it was a good idea. There’s only a handful of readers there who are dedicated to posting link-roundups whenever they’re around, but there’s at least a dozen more who do it every now and then.

        So please: anybody who thinks link round-ups to focus attention on stellar links is a good idea, just start doing it!

        Suggested templates:
        ————————–
        Links Summary: so far in this thread I’ve found these links particularly relevant to [topic/issue].

        * Link 1 with optional summary and/or keywords h/t commentor A
        * Link 2 with optional summary and/or keywords h/t commentor B
        * Link 3 with optional summary and/or keywords h/t commentor c
        etc
        ——————————————
        or
        ——————————————
        [commentor name], that’s a good question/observation which is veering off-topic for this thread, but here’s some reading elsewhere which should cover it:

        * Link 1 with optional summary and/or keywords h/t commentor A
        * Link 2 with optional summary and/or keywords h/t commentor B
        * Link 3 with optional summary and/or keywords h/t commentor C
        etc

        Happy to discuss this further in #spillover if you like, so that we avoid derailing this thread.
        ——————————————
        or
        ——————————————
        [commentor name], your question goes over old ground. Here’s some background reading to get you up to speed:

        * Link 1 with optional summary and/or keywords h/t commentor A
        * Link 2 with optional summary and/or keywords h/t commentor B
        * Link 3 with optional summary and/or keywords h/t commentor C
        etc

        Happy to discuss this further in #spillover if you like, so that we avoid derailing this thread.
        ——————————————

        1. I dunno, I think it’s pretty on-topic…

          Those templates look good (though I’d ideally append whether it’s a !person or !allyperson talking in a link), tigtog. Maybe they could be added to the commenting guidelines pages or the guide to #spillover etc? That seems like the fastest way to get maximum exposure to the idea.

  22. Far too many white feminists think that because they ostensibly support WOC that nothing they can ever say or do could be racist (it’s the white feminist version of the I have black friends). Like liberal guys who purport to support women think that nothing that can say or do could be sexist. It’s twisted toxic logic and it needs to go like yesterday.

    White feminists (including myself) need to acknowledge that every racist thought, act, speech, whatever that we do is just that fucking racist, it’s not ok, it’s not lesser prejudice because you totally support POC and just slipped up, we don’t get a pass. If we’re called out we need to shut up and acknowledge our racism. We can’t use emotional terrorism like threatening to stop being an ally because people called us racist. We don’t get to retort well at least I’m not part of the GOP, we’re on the same side!

    None of that flies, it’s all bullshit.

    But furthermore it shouldn’t even come to being called out by someone. Keeping us not racist is not the job of others, it’s our job, it’s my job. Shut up, listen, learn, think before speaking/acting.

  23. I came across this while looking for something else and wanted to post it about here. Both because there were a few people on the other thread (which has gotten too large for me to work with) who were asking for some sort of links to background stuff…

    And as an illustration of the point that many woc and others have been making, that he who can’t be named on this thread is not the issue, but simply one in a long series of symptoms. The pattern of depicting woc who challenge big whiteness as “jealous”, “aggressive,” “stupid,” “flame war” blah, blah, blah is nothing new, nor is that of white feminists/progressive women standing behind white men as they, with sometimes violent and racist language, attack women of color who dare to challenge white women.

    Nameless-one doing the same in the service of Marcotte and Valenti was not an innovation but a continuation. This is part of what needs to be acknowledged in order to be fixed.

    And that little ever changes as far as whose voices get heard and by whom, as well as about how sometimes #solidarityisforwhitewomen is confirmed by what is not said.

    Anyway, these two links are from 2006–the first one is from feministe (zuzu), one of the first (and for a time, only) larger white sites to even acknowledge the issue.

    I’m pretty sure that this post was my intro to this site, which is why I sometimes toddle over and shake my fist at feministe during these types of things. And why I nodded along vigorously at piny’s comment on the big thread about Jill’s post becoming part of the archive, and the importance of it being inadequate in details, names and the actual record (or however it was put, sorry piny if I badly misrepresented–can’t access it at the moment.)

    And the other is from Alas, a Blog, which I including because he excerpts commentary from blogs that, sadly, no longer exist (and doesn’t water down the issue by including Jessica’s boobs.)

    Silver linings: this incident is where I first learned about woc/poc bloggers, and first met/heard of bfp, kai (moc,) blackamazon, donna (of the silence of our friends, a blog created as a response to this travesty) so that part is good.

    Not so good– Is our white feminists learning? Very, very slowly, some of them, if at all.

    (My links aren’t working in preview so I’m putting the urls here, just in case)

    http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/09/16/3764/

    amptoons.com/blog/2006/09/18/bill-clinton-lunches-with-whites-also-firedoglake-sucks/comment-page-1/#comments

    1. Thanks so much for the urls; that was fascinating. (The links earlier in your comment didn’t work for me, either — the first one went to an old post here about being 16 and pregnant, which I searched in vain for something relevant!)

      1. Ha ha, how weird is that? I obviously have no link competence on this site.

        Thanks, Donna L and, yes, interesting times, those.

        Anyone interested, just ignore the html links in my comment (I’ve got nothing against the 16 and pregnant post, but the feministe one we want is titled ‘know your place’!)

        Just go to the direct urls–

        http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/09/16/3764/

        And

        http:/www.amptoons.com/blog/2006/09/18/bill-clinton-lunches-with-whites-also-firedoglake-sucks/

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