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Because You’re Not Sick Enough of Hearing About Those Cartoons

Well, looky. Seems the whole situation with the Danish cartoons isn’t as simple as it appears. Salon has an interesting piece from Jytte Klausen, a Dane, on the whole debacle.

First, Denmark may not be the bastion of tolerance and free speech it has been historically regarded to be:

In the past five years, I have interviewed 300 Muslim leaders in Western Europe about their views and solutions for the integration of Islam. It has long been evident to me that religious toleration and reverence for human rights have been sorely lacking in Denmark. The debate now raging over the caricatures has tilted on the defense of free speech — but a deep and unflinching commitment to free speech is not really the mission of the paper at the center of the maelstrom, nor of the present Danish government.

Moreover, the paper that ran the cartoons originally is quite conservative and is essentially an organ of the ruling party in Denmark:

Jyllands-Posten, the Danish paper that originally published the 12 caricatures, has a circulation of about 175,000 and is Denmark’s largest paper. The paper’s main offices are in Aarhus, the country’s second-largest city, on the outskirts of town in an area zoned for industrial use. The building resembles a well-kept small manufacturing plant, but inside everything is white and pleasant. It is where I grew up, and in my family the paper still sits on our coffee tables. But don’t let the blond wood deceive you. Jyllands-Posten is a conservative paper and it has always minded the religious and political sensitivities of its readership, the Lutheran farmers and the provincial middle class.

In Denmark the national papers have historically been associated with the main political parties and the movements that formed them. Jyllands-Posten is associated with the prime minister’s party.

While some of the cartoons may indeed have some value as politico-religio commentary, others are clearly racist and were meant to cause trouble.

The Economist called the Danish cartoons a “schoolboy prank.” That describes them pretty well, but I like a few of them nonetheless. …. The rest are a predictable mix of self-righteous, unfunny commentary and depictions of shady-looking faces with big, bulbous noses and blood-dripping swords. They tab popular prejudices about Muslims as war-mongering and misogynistic blackbeards. They are the pebble that started a tsunami — but they were never meant to be innocent.

Incidentally, some of the cartoonists themselves recognized the inflammatory nature of the assignment (described by the paper as “exploring the effects of muslim activism on self-censorship” by soliciting cartoonists to submit drawings of “how they saw the Prophet.” ) For instance, one depicted Mohammed as a schoolboy writing over and over on a chalkboard, “Jyllands-Posten’s journalists are a bunch of reactionary provocateurs.”

On Sept. 30, 12 cartoons were published under the headline “Mohammed’s Face.” Rose cited a statement by a Danish stand-up comedian, who had complained that he was afraid to make fun of Mohammed on TV. A children’s book author complained that he could not get anyone to illustrate his book about Mohammed. Another example of Islamic pieties’ crushing influence on free speech was that three theaters had put on shows deriding George Bush, but none Osama bin Laden. Cartoons are an important anti-totalitarian expression, Rose wrote, and therefore the paper had asked 40 Danish cartoonists to draw their image of Mohammed. Only 12 responded. Rose implied that some of those who did not respond were infected by self-censorship.

I read this and the fact that the paper ran each and every cartoon that they received, regardless of artistic merit or pithiness or exercise of editorial judgment, leaped out at me. What kind of paper does that?

One that is looking to provoke a reaction.

But only from Muslims, because the paper didn’t exactly give free reign to another cartoonist who’d submitted drawings of Jesus, because that might offend the religious sensibilities of its own readership:

This all would have been very well if the paper had a long tradition of standing up for fearless artistic expression. But it so happens that three years ago, Jyllands-Posten refused to publish cartoons portraying Jesus, on the grounds that they would offend readers. According to a report in the Guardian, which was provided with a letter from the cartoonist, Christoffer Zieler, the editor explained back then, “I don’t think Jyllands-Posten’s readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them.” When confronted with the old rejection letter, the editor, Jens Kaiser, said, “It is ridiculous to bring this forward now. It has nothing to do with the Mohammed cartoons.” But why does it not? Can you offend Muslim readers but not Christian readers? “In the Muhammed drawings case, we asked the illustrators to do it. I did not ask for these cartoons,” Kaiser said. “That’s the difference.”

And therein lies the truth. The paper wanted to instigate trouble, just not the kind of trouble it got.

I have to wonder what kind of trouble they were hoping for. Were they thinking that they’d get the Muslims in Denmark all riled up and be able to sit at their Danish modern desks and cluck their tongues about the inferiority of all those immigrants and that Denmark should be for the Danes?

Well, quite possibly. As Julia put it, once the reaction got rolling,

So now embassies are burning and (while mainstream islamic leaders condemn the riots) there is lovely juicy footage of islamic mob violence on every station and in every newspaper just as the effort to escalate against Iran ramps up.

Quel coinkydink.

I doubt very much that the editors of the paper that originally published the cartoons thought that things would turn out the way they have (they have, after all, acknowledged that while perhaps they had the right to publish the cartoons, they did not exercise good judgment in doing so). But clearly, they underestimated extremists in both the West and in the Middle East, both of whom are spoiling for an eliminationist fight. They wrote a check that someone else had to cash.

But back to the original publication. The paper, being closely affiliated with the ruling party, wasn’t alone in the shit-stirring:

And in this mission it acted in concert with the Danish government. “We have gone to war against the multicultural ideology that says that everything is equally valid,” boasted the minister of cultural affairs, Brian Mikkelsen, in a speech at his party’s annual meeting the week before Rose’s cartoon editorial last fall. Mikkelsen is a 39-year-old political science graduate known for his hankering for the “culture war.” He continued, “The Culture War has now been raging for some years. And I think we can conclude that the first round has been won.” The next front, he said, is the war against the acceptance of Muslims norms and ways of thought. The Danish cultural heritage is a source of strength in an age of globalization and immigration. Cultural restoration, he argued, is the best antidote.

Ah, yes. “Culture war.” Where have I heard that before?

It is worth noting that the cartoons did not provoke a significant outcry until much later — they were, after all, first published in September, 2005. It was only after they were reprinted by two Norwegian evangelical Christian magazines that the furor really started. From Julia:

It was still a primarily diplomatic wrangle, though, until two Norwegian evangelical Christian magazines reprinted the cartoons a week later with the stated intention of making a comment on Islam and terrorism (are you beginning to notice a common thread amongst the free speech enthusiasts here?) and all hell broke loose.

Well, not all hell – arab groups called for a boycott, there were threats against the newspaper that commissioned the cartoons, protesters burned flags and fired bullets in the air, and islamic countries recalled their ambassadors.

No, full-metal hell didn’t break loose until various newspapers in Europe, giving reasons ranging from support of free speech (see above) to anti-religious principles (France, of course), went ahead and reprinted the cartoons again. One brave soul printed them in Jordan. He’s been fired. The boycott, largely a pipe dream before last week, is now severely damaging danish industry.

In the meantime, the Danish Prime Minister missed an opportunity to put a lid on the reaction when he refused to meet with diplomats from several Muslim countries about the issue. He instead has maintained that this is purely an issue of free speech and that his government has no control over the paper.

Well, except that that’s not entirely true, given the links between the paper and his party and the existence of Danish law penalizing just what the paper did. Back to the Salon article:

The paper is related to the government, not by ownership but by political affinity and history. And Denmark is no paragon of free speech. Article 140 of the Criminal Code allows for a fine and up to four months of imprisonment for demeaning a “recognized religious community.”

A law which has been used in the past to punish those who demean Christians, by the way:

Back in 1975, Jens Jorgen Thorsen, a multimedia artist belonging to the “situationist school,” had a government grant provided to make a film about Jesus taken away. Five thousand young Christians had demonstrated in the street of Copenhagen against Thorsen and his movie and tumultuous scenes broke out. (Coincidentally, a police estimate held that about 5,000 people participated in one of the first demonstrations against the cartoons held in Copenhagen in October 2005.) Respected politicians spoke up and said that Thorsen had free speech, but if the blasphemy law had not been violated then certainly good taste and the feelings of religious Danes had the case dragged on in court forever with no conviction.

And right-wing Danish politicians are well aware that the blasphemy rule applies to demeaning statements about Muslims, given the efforts of some members of the Danish People’s Party to get it overturned, for less than noble reasons:

In the past two years, the Danish People’s Party has twice proposed to eliminate the blasphemy paragraph. Two of the party’s members, Jesper Langballe and Soren Krarup, both pastors in the Lutheran National Church, have described Muslims as “a cancer on Danish society” in speeches in parliament. They want to be free to say it outside parliament too.

I’ll let Julia have the last word, since I’ve been shamelessly stealing from her all along:

Free speech means that you have the right to express yourself. You even have the right to be protected by law from people you’ve offended who want to express their offense in illegal ways. It does not mean that if you act like a dumb [rude anglo-saxon noun] you’re really a brave warrior for truth and the rights of man or anything but a really, really dumb [rude anglo-saxon noun].

Congratulations, o culture warriors of the right. You’ve gotten the deep offense and the highly-telegenic violence you wanted. You must, although resembling them closely in many other significant ways, be much happier than pigs in shit.


81 thoughts on Because You’re Not Sick Enough of Hearing About Those Cartoons

  1. It’s when I read commentary like this that I dispair for the Modern Left and wonder what happened to the Champions of The Enlightment.

    Moreover, the paper that ran the cartoons originally is quite conservative and is essentially an organ of the ruling party in Denmark:

    Perhaps only a conservative newspaper would run this because the newspapers with a liberal inclination have abandoned adherence to Enlightenment principles and have instead adopted the new Liberal Mantras of cultural equivalence, Multiculturalism, never criticising non-western cultures or religions, Western guilt, speech codes which allow for prison punishment, the rights to not be offended, and the whole PC Rube Goldberg set of values.

    There’s no way that a Liberal newspaper would even think to publish anything critical of Multiculturalism. This whole mindset is best exemplified by Norwegian feminist, Uni Wikan, who wrote:

    “Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes” because Muslim men found their manner of dress provocative. One reason for the high number of rapes by Muslims, explained the professor, was that in their native countries “rape is scarcely punished,” since Muslims “believe that it is women who are responsible for rape.” The professor’s conclusion was not that Muslim men living in the West needed to adjust to Western norms, but the exact opposite: “Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it.”

    I read this and the fact that the paper ran each and every cartoon that they received, regardless of artistic merit or pithiness or exercise of editorial judgment, leaped out at me. What kind of paper does that?

    A paper that is cognizant of the fact that pervasive self-censorship had taken root and only 12 artists were brave enough to step forward and present their work for publication. Only 12. That’s the point. The other 28 were too frightened of the consequences that would result if they exercised their freedoms. The paper gave them carte blanche to depict Mohammed in any fashion they chose – they could have depicted him in the most respectful fashion yet because of the very act of depiction, they felt that they would be targeted.

    the paper didn’t exactly give free reign to another cartoonist who’d submitted drawings of Jesus

    I watched an interview with Rose, the editor, last night. He specifically pointed to an earlier cartoon that his paper ran that juxtoposed a lit bomb with the Star of David.

    His point is made – they have satarized religion before. Get over your Jesus fixation already. There is little to prove with satarizing Jesus – it’s a common day occurance.

    juicy footage of islamic mob violence on every station and in every newspaper just as the effort to escalate against Iran ramps up.

    Yeah, how much ramping up was there in September? This Julia that you’re lifting this “analysis” from is not altogether there.

    acknowledged that while perhaps they had the right to publish the cartoons, they did not exercise good judgment in doing so

    Yeah, most of us when faced with murder and destruction and mobs of raving nutbags would say anything to try to calm the waters, for standing on principle, after your point has been validated, takes second place to calming the nutbags down. Look at the act of contrition that Larry Summers had to play out to calm the nutbags that reacted to his speech. His contrition involves spending $50 million of Harvard’s capital on worthless outreach and sensitivity programs.

    I’ll let Julia have the last word, since I’ve been shamelessly stealing from her all along:

    Too bad you couldn’t find a more sophisticated analysis to read.

  2. On the off-chance, admittedly quite small considering the nature of this forum, that anyone is interested in my sense of ennui about the Modern Left, mentioned in the above comment, I’d point to this piece that was written by my co-blogger specifically for the Howard Dean blog Dean Nation and crossposted at my blog (where it got more comments.)

  3. I really think I’ve said my piece on this whole issue, but just two quick points. In response to the claim that Denmark’s press isn’t exactly as free as it’s been billed, here’s the recently released 2005 Reporters Without Borders Annual Press Freedom Index. Take a wild guess which country ranks number one. (Hint: not Iran, which comes in at 164th.) Note that this group isn’t exactly a front for right-wing shilldom: they’re pretty critical of the US.

    It is worth noting that the cartoons did not provoke a significant outcry until much later — they were, after all, first published in September, 2005. It was only after they were reprinted by two Norwegian evangelical Christian magazines that the furor really started.

    Actually, a good deal of fuel was added to the fire by Danish imams who disseminated three forged, more offensive cartoons, to gin up anti-Danish sentiment. More on this here.

  4. Let me get this right. Now we’re supposed to blame the newspaper for being edgy? I’m shocked, shocked, that a newspaper would dare to print political cartoons that are offensive to someone.

    I especially like the part of the article where the reader is told that Jyllands-Posten is not technically a government paper, but it really is a goverment paper, because its politics allign with the current ruling party. Am I supposed to believe the Wall Street Journal (editorial board) a US government paper because it’s alligned by “by political affinity and history” with Republicans?

    This article by Klausen is just one more form of distracting from the real issues. “See!” she says. “This paper is right-wing (and a government entity) and hypocritical (for not making fun of Christians) and they went looking for trouble (by provoking Muslims). Therefore, the paper should be blamed for all this outrage.” The article wants us to feel sympathy for Muslims in Denmark for their oppression at the hands of the best-circulated newspaper despite the fact that newspapers are definitionally incapable of “oppressing” anyone (oh, and the current government, she adds without any reference to government anti-Muslim actions).

    The gist of the article is that J-P is bad. Having never read the paper, I can’t comment. But it is irrelevant to the current situation whether J-P is the earthly embodiment of evil.

    First, no one rioted when J-P actually printed the articles. The riots came months later after different papers in a different country re-printed the cartoons.

    Second, they printed cartoons (as papers sometimes do) which may or may not have been in bad taste. If it was in bad taste, shame on them. If it was in bad taste, are the newspapers to blame for the rioting and boycotting and embassy-burning?

    Finally, I have been disturbed throughout this whole cartoon debacle by the speed and carelessness with which the word “racist” has been thown around. Once and for all: “Muslim” is not a race. Racism is an important word with an important meaning and use.

  5. Racism is an important word with an important meaning and use.

    Don’t you mean that it used to be “an important word with an important meaning” before it was so devalued? Or do you still think that it carries the same connotations today when it is so easily bandied about? On my blog we linked to a guy who was writing about some recent research that touched on race, and almost from the get-go some commenter on his blog charged that he was racist for merely writing about race. Then that blogger felt compelled to write a very lengthy piece where he defended himself from the charge that merely writing about the topic doesn’t equate with being racist.

    When “right-thinking” people equate what he did as racism, then what the hell do you call the Stormfront variety of racists?

  6. Yeah, how much ramping up was there in September?

    You know very well the drums for war with Iran have been beating for quite some time. However, I don’t see how that’s relevant, since the real protests didn’t even start until December or January.

    I think you’re both missing the point. The whole idea is that the situation is very complicated and needs to be viewed with the current political and cultural situation in Denmark in mind rather than just boiled down to a Free Speech Good! Muslims Bad! We’re All Danes Now! piffle.

    The gist of the article is that J-P is bad. Having never read the paper, I can’t comment. But it is irrelevant to the current situation whether J-P is the earthly embodiment of evil.

    No, the gist of the article is that the J-P was motivated by conservative politics, egged on by the culture warriors, and had no earthly clue just how big the hornet’s nest it was quite deliberately stirring up was. Like the article said, they were looking for trouble, but they got more than they bargained for. They probably thought they’d score a few points at home and didn’t think things through to their logical and completely foreseeable conclusion, given the existence of right-wing extremists on both sides of the Bosphorus.

    I watched an interview with Rose, the editor, last night. He specifically pointed to an earlier cartoon that his paper ran that juxtoposed a lit bomb with the Star of David.

    His point is made – they have satarized religion before. Get over your Jesus fixation already. There is little to prove with satarizing Jesus – it’s a common day occurance.

    If it’s so common, why did the editor spike the Jesus cartoon while allowing the Star of David cartoon and soliciting Mohammed cartoons?

  7. Let me get this right. Now we’re supposed to blame the newspaper for being edgy? I’m shocked, shocked, that a newspaper would dare to print political cartoons that are offensive to someone.

    Free speech, including the right to offend, is allowed but not mandatory. *cough* flagburning *cough*

    In any case, I think Sean does a good job explaining my general thoughts on the matter since I ain’t a-bloggin’ anymore.

  8. TangoMan, you’ve cut right to the problem. If we use “racism” so freely then what do we call actual racism?

  9. First, Denmark may not be the bastion of tolerance and free speech it has been historically regarded to be:

    Because 300 muslim leaders told Jytte Klausen so.

    Moreover, the paper that ran the cartoons originally is quite conservative and is essentially an organ of the ruling party in Denmark:

    Oh, the horror! They are conservative! Organ of the ruling party is a blatant lie, the ruling party is not conservative.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_politics

    But only from Muslims, because the paper didn’t exactly give free reign to another cartoonist who’d submitted drawings of Jesus, because that might offend the religious sensibilities of its own readership:

    Of course Jyllands-Posten must publish everything submitted/peddled to it and is forbidden to think about what their readers want to read. Besides, offensive drawings/art/satire of Jesus are all banned in Denmark. /sarcasm

    A law which has been used in the past to punish those who demean Christians, by the way:

    Then you submit a case in which politicians spoke up for the demeaner, on grounds of freedom of speech, and there was no punishment.

    From Wikipedia:
    Blasphemy is forbidden by § 140 of the penal code:

    “Anybody who publicly mocks or insults any in this country legally existing religious commnity tenets of faith or worship, will be punished by fine or imprisonment for up to 4 months.”

    However, there is very little legal tradition for actually punishing anyone for violating this article. The latest conviction was in 1938 in a case of flyers that construed Jewish holy texts as urging ‘violating’ non-Jewish girls. Legal tradition seems to establish that debate and art are not punishable under the blasphemy-article

    (emphasis added)

    And right-wing Danish politicians are well aware that the blasphemy rule applies to demeaning statements about Muslims, given the efforts of some members of the Danish People’s Party to get it overturned, for less than noble reasons:

    What do their reasons matter? Overturning the blasphemy rule would apply to everyone.

    Free speech means that you have the right to express yourself. You even have the right to be protected by law from people you’ve offended who want to express their offense in illegal ways. It does not mean that if you act like a dumb [rude anglo-saxon noun] you’re really a brave warrior for truth and the rights of man or anything but a really, really dumb [rude anglo-saxon noun].

    They may say stupid, offensive things. That is not what makes them brave. What makes them brave is they are refusing to bend over to established tradition of issuing (and carrying out) fatwas against those who mock Islam, such as Theo Van Gogh and Salman Rushdie.

    TangoMan:

    It’s when I read commentary like this that I dispair for the Modern Left and wonder what happened to the Champions of The Enlightment.

    Exactly.

  10. Of course Jyllands-Posten must publish everything submitted/peddled to it and is forbidden to think about what their readers want to read. Besides, offensive drawings/art/satire of Jesus are all banned in Denmark. /sarcasm

    The point is that Jyllands-Posten has an obvious double-standard when it comes to thinking “about what their readers want to read.” It’d be reasonable for them to decide that they didn’t want to publish cartoons potentially offensive to religious people, and reasonable for them to decide to publish them and damn the controversy. It’s incredibly suspicious that sensitivity is the watchword for one religion but not for the other.

  11. Because 300 muslim leaders told Jytte Klausen so.

    So how many have you spoken to? Specifically, Danish ones?

  12. It’d be reasonable for them to decide that they didn’t want to publish cartoons potentially offensive to religious people, and reasonable for them to decide to publish them and damn the controversy. It’s incredibly suspicious that sensitivity is the watchword for one religion but not for the other.

    Business as usual. Offending Christians is boring and doesn’t sell. And the sheer irony of people here talking about double-standard on religious sensitivity is staggering.

  13. Business as usual. Offending Christians is boring and doesn’t sell. And the sheer irony of people here talking about double-standard on religious sensitivity is staggering.

    …Which is why, after the Matthew Shepard murder, there were all those cartoons of Jesus pistol-whipping some slight blond guy tied to a fencepost. If that were true, the J-P would have had no problem whatsoever running those cartoons, because the J-P wouldn’t have worried about offending anyone.

  14. So how many have you spoken to? Specifically, Danish ones?

    That is not my point (the number 300). My point is that expertise on Free Speech is not determined by amount of Muslim leaders one talks to. Come on, the muslim leaders were a major reason this whole controversy got so big (the fake cartoons, different message to the muslim street than to Danes.) They are the ones demanding Muhammed cartoons to be banned – of course they are unhappy about the situation and claim Denmark is an awful place.

  15. Hey, Tuomas, do you watch the Book of Daniel?

    Oh, that’s right. It was canceled. After protests from Christians who didn’t like that a minister would have problems.

    And you can say goodbye to seeing Britney Spears on Will & Grace as Jack’s conservative Christian friend, because Christians objected to a segment with a cooking show called Cruci-fixins.”

  16. Finally, I have been disturbed throughout this whole cartoon debacle by the speed and carelessness with which the word “racist” has been thown around. Once and for all: “Muslim” is not a race. Racism is an important word with an important meaning and use.

    Neither is “Jew.” That doesn’t mean anti-Semitism isn’t a type of racism, or that anti-Semitic art doesn’t rely on racist stereotypes about the way Jews look. Show me a caricature of a Muslim that isn’t a caricature of an Arab. Show me a caricature of Islam that includes white people, or Americans, or the Nation of Islam.

  17. Business as usual. Offending Christians is boring and doesn’t sell. And the sheer irony of people here talking about double-standard on religious sensitivity is staggering.

    Oh, and? I hate to bring it up again, but for fuck’s sake, tell that to the people who organized the Sensation show. No, that didn’t get any attention at all.

  18. Neither is “Jew.”

    Certainly there are people who are social Jews, marry into Judaic tradition, etc, but the majority of Jews have similar (Ashkenazi, Sephardic,Oriental) genetic lineages. That pretty much equates to race.

    So, if your point is to stress that not every Jew is descended from Jewish Peoples, point taken, but if your point is that there is no racial component to Judaism then you need to bone up on your facts.

  19. zuzu writes:

    No, the gist of the article is that the J-P was motivated by conservative politics, egged on by the culture warriors, and had no earthly clue just how big the hornet’s nest it was quite deliberately stirring up was.

    And my point is that it doesn’t matter (and therefore, the article is merely a distraction from the real issues and attempts to blame the newspaper for the events that have occurred). Let’s assume for the sake of argument that you’re right and J-P printed the cartoons to provoke or insult Danish Muslims. Are you suggesting that it is therefore the newspaper’s fault that some Muslims around the world are rioting, boycotting, and embassy-burning? (How ironic, since the point of printing the cartoons and the accompanying article was to show that artists in Denmark were afraid to offend Muslims.)

    Also, I’m puzzled by frequent comparisons of the current controversy and previous conflicts between artists and Christians in this country. Often mentioned is the dispute over “Piss Christ” and the failure of “The Book of Daniel.” (How wonderfully timely is the shut-down of Will & Grace’s Brittany Spears segment.)

    Are people who bring up Christians vs. Artists saying that Christians shouldn’t have protested Piss Christ, or “The Book of Daniel,” or the W&G segment? Are they suggesting that the criticisms made by Christians are unfair? Should we analogize to the current controversy and say that Muslims shouldn’t protest the cartoons or that their criticism is unfair? In other words, what exactly of the point of saying: “look the Christians get loud too.”

    I suppose it’s possible that people bringing this argument are trying to justify protests. “See, the Christians did it, so it’s hypocritically of you to badmouth Muslims when they do it.” The problem with that argument is that few people (actually, no one that I’ve noticed) are saying that Muslims should be prevented from protesting offenses against their religion. In fact, most people are saying, “Of course they should protest, this is outrageous!” The point, of course, is that the right to protest does not include the right to make death threats or burn buildings. That certainly distinguishes modern-day Muslims from modern-day Christians, anyways.

  20. I am not sure it is still so but Denmark and the rest of the Scandanavian countries had a state church (Lutheran).

    Nonetheless, however much of a double-standard the paper exercised; I do not feel that is the point.

    If I saw a cartoon of the Pope that offended me and I fire-bombed the paper you would think me a cretin, no? But to forgive Arabs as a gesture of multi-culturalism is also a double standard.

    The fact is that many of these cultures are indeed retrograde, reactionary, vehemently misogynistic and undemocratic. Freedom of speech is not divisible.

  21. “Jew” is not a race no matter how much one “bones up” on facts. Actually, the more one “bones up” on facts, the less of a race it is. Heck! Not even the concept of “race” is based on facts, really. It’s a social construct on very flimsy scientific grounds.

    Not that that matters to the discussion.

  22. Oh, that’s right. It was canceled. After protests from Christians who didn’t like that a minister would have problems.

    And you can say goodbye to seeing Britney Spears on Will & Grace as Jack’s conservative Christian friend, because Christians objected to a segment with a cooking show called Cruci-fixins.”

    Did those protests include credible threats of violence, criminal behaviour, or simply economic pressure and peaceful protests?
    I have already explained that I wouldn’t have such a huge problem with the Islamist reactions if they were limited to lawful protest and did not include “infidels must be beheaded” -rhetoric. If they had only been like that.
    also,
    Denmark =/= USA.

    I am not sure it is still so but Denmark and the rest of the Scandanavian countries had a state church (Lutheran).

    True. But freedom of religion is not restricted.Let me explain: Belonging to the state church is not obligatory and not required, (quite frankly, no one gives a shit), and parting from the church can be done via internet (and in other ways,of course) these days. If one does not belong to the State Church, one does not have to pay the “Church Tax” (something like 1%, IIRC) that is used to maintain the state church. Non-state churches operate on similar principles as all churches do in America (volunteer donations etc.).

    But still, FTR, I do support separation of church and state on principle.

    If that were true, the J-P would have had no problem whatsoever running those cartoons, because the J-P wouldn’t have worried about offending anyone.

    Well, I suppose you got me. What I’m saying they were worried about losing readers who would find offending Christianity boring and fake-trendy. Conservative newspaper after all, who cater to conservative readers.

    Point is that Christianity can be insulted and is insulted. Perhaps not in J-P, but what obligation do they have to print everything?

  23. Gabriel Malor,

    Are you suggesting that it is therefore the newspaper’s fault that some Muslims around the world are rioting, boycotting, and embassy-burning

    I’ve been zipping around to a lot of leftist blogs that are addressing this controversy in order to add data points to my quest for understanding the principles that are being advocated. Trying to discern the underlying principles has proven to be a very difficult task on many of the Left’s issues.

    With the Right we know with there is a high degree of intercorrelatedness to their positions. They are Pro-Life, anti-gay marriage, in favor of traditional gender roles, anti-Identity politics, anti Affirmative Action, pro-Defense, etc. Some very unpleasant stuff but also very predictable and internally coherent.

    The question you ask above, about blaming the newspaper, if you want the answer you really need to dig deep to find the principles at work. Feminists, when addressing the issue of rape, will take the position that it is the rapist who is entirely responsible for his own conduct, and the victim is in no way to blame. Personal responsibility is the bedrock principle here, yet it’s quite diminished, if not entirely absent, in the Left’s analysis of the Cartoon Caper. They may say that they abide by personal responsibility and that there is no excuse for the rioters’ behavior yet they still seek to blame the paper in some fashion, which they would never do in a rape case. I don’t recall any feminist commentary on the Kobe Bryant rape case in which any commenters expressed the opinion that the woman shouldn’t have gone to his room. On the one hand, the principle is rock solid, and the responsibility for the crime all falls on Kobe, as it should, but in this case, the principle is weakened. You’re rightly, in my opinion, asking what is different in these situations so that personal responsibility is diminished.

    Take the Islam versus Christian comparisons. ISTM that Modern Leftist Thought = severe hate-on for fundamentalist Christianity, yet if we objectively (a concept which PoMo Leftists denouce) score fundamentalist Christianity’s tenets and practices against those found in Fundamentalist Islam, we see that leftist prinicples are more at odds with Islam. However, Islam gets a trump card because Leftists feel that they have much to apologize for with respect to their being citizens of the West, and it would simply be a perpetuation of Post-Colonial exploitation to assume to judge a foreign nation or religion in reference to Western benchmarks. The upshot is that there is a huge degree of discomfort in attacking non-Western features.

    So, when we’re witnessing this scattershot approach to criticism and seeing all of the inherent contradictions in Leftist’s thoughts, we’re all confused because the principles aren’t highly intercorrelated and that’s why they seem contradictory. I think it helps to look for the meta narrative, in which the overarching principle trumps the immediately applicable prinicple. For instance, cultural relativism and Western guilt trump the specifics of personal responsibility. You see this play out in how there is dancing around the notion of blaming the newspaper, and in my earlier comment where women are told to change their ways because Muslim men believe women are responsible for rape. You also see it in the IKEA incident I linked to a few days ago, where IKEA took all references to women out of their instruction manuals so as not to offend the sensibilities of Muslim men within Europe. If you simply look at the immediate problem, then often times the Leftist response looks adle brained and only a search for the meta principle reveals the rationales, and contradictions, at work.

    Modern Leftist thought, and its ideological factions, is much more complex than the simpler unpleasantness found in Modern Conservatism.

  24. Apologies for the length of the post, but I don’t have a web source for this. Background – author is an American academic living in Oslo; article is predominantly about Norwegian integration.

    Neither side comes off particularly well (though I must point out that the author is not particularly committed either to compromise or to multiculturalism).

    ‘Then there’s the case of Denmark. In Norway, when people dare to discuss the issue of Muslim integration, they sometimes speak ominously of danske tilstander: “Danish conditions.” What they are referring to is a state of affairs in which there exists not only de facto segregation between native and Muslim communities but also a routine and open expression of mutual hostility and distrust. Such a situation has existed for some time now in Denmark, where recent years have seen, for example, the movement of children out of integrated public schools and into private “white” and Muslim schools. After September 11, however, the tensions between native Danes and the Muslim community became more heated than ever. In Denmark, as elsewhere, Muslims took to the streets to celebrate the terrorist attacks. A few days later, a thousand Muslims gathered in the Danish town of Nørrebro for a protest against democracy; one speaker called for “holy war” against Danish society. In the run-up to a November parliamentary election, politicians from a range of parties spoke out bluntly on the topic of Islam: one referred to Muslims’ “infiltration” of western countries; another called Islam “not a proper religion” but “a terror organization”; a third offered the staggeringly undemocratic suggestion that, in order to promote integration of Muslims into Danish society, members of the immigrant community be prohibited from marrying people from their ancestral countries. After a new study showed that the persistence of current trends would make Denmark (now about 3 percent Muslim) a majority Muslim nation within sixty years, the small, reactionary Progress Party proposed ejecting “all Mohammedans” from the country.

    Immigration was the number-one issue in the campaign. And the election proved historic. It marked the fall from power of the Social Democrats, who since 1920 had been Denmark’s largest political party, and it gave Denmark a new prime minister, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, whose campaign posters had featured the slogan “Time for a Change” over a picture of a “second-generation immigrant” who had been convicted of violence. In late November, Rasmussen promised a new policy under which immigration would be reduced and resources focused instead on a vastly improved integration program.

    A post-election article in Aftenposten, on November 24, vividly summed up the current state of affairs in Denmark. “Our integration has not gone well,” admitted a teacher. “I had a class in which nineteen of thirty-three children couldn’t say anything in Danish, even though they were all born in Denmark. . . . It’s a catastrophe for Denmark, what’s happening.” A young Copenhagen woman who had been a gung-ho supporter of “multiculturalism” said that she now felt uncomfortable in her own country: “When someone like me thinks this way, it doesn’t bode well for the society.”

    In Norway, anyone who dares to voice legitimate concerns about the immigrant community’s prejudices and self-segregation risks being branded a racist by the political and media establishment; but in Denmark, it appears, those legitimate concerns have in many cases degenerated into genuine racism. In Denmark, alas, as elsewhere in northern Europe, many natives seem hamstrung by an inability to disentangle ideology from race–and to distinguish their own frankly racist discomforts (“It is simply a little strange to live in Denmark surrounded by so many people from other countries,” one woman told Aftenposten) from their entirely justifiable unease over the prejudices and the resistance to integration that accompany fundamentalist Muslim ideology.’

    Bruce Bawer, ‘Tolerating Intolerance: The Challenge of Fundamentalist Islam in Western Europe’, _Partisan Review_, Autumn 2002

  25. Not even the concept of “race” is based on facts, really. It’s a social construct on very flimsy scientific grounds.

    Sorry everyone, but I can’t let blatant ignorance stand unchallenged. Welcome to the 21st Century.

    Without knowing how the participants had identified themselves, Risch and his team ran the results through a computer program that grouped individuals according to patterns of the 326 signposts. This analysis could have resulted in any number of different clusters, but only four clear groups turned up. And in each case the individuals within those clusters all fell within the same self-identified racial group.

    “This shows that people’s self-identified race/ethnicity is a nearly perfect indicator of their genetic background,” Risch said.

    “Jew” is not a race no matter how much one “bones up” on facts.

    Here is one study on Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes and there are other studies on Jewish mtDNA.

    The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.

  26. And if it didn’t become clear already, Jytte Klausen and Salon are simply recycling the Islamist propaganda on the issue. Telltale signs of this are the blatant lies about J-P:s government contacts, which are exactly the same lies muslims were told by the radical imams who incited rioting (Danish newspapers are controlled bu government, the government ordered the insults on Muhammed ad nauseatum)..

    Sorry, that means you (zuzu, piny etc. ) should admit that, for once at least, or in this issue only, the muslims were wrong and the likes of Michelle Malkin were right. It may hurt, but show some intellectual integrity here.

  27. Tuomas, sorry, but I believe a Dane who’s talked to Danes and Danish Muslims over you. What are your bona fides on the issue?

    I’ve argued all along that this issue is getting distorted here in the US because Americans have a tendency to view everything through a filter of their own experience and frames of reference. For instance, not understanding the political situation, the history of newspapers and political parties, the tensions due to immigration (and BTW, notice that none of the 9/11 hijackers were from the US? That’s because we don’t have the same issues with immigration that Europe does. We’re not a homogenous country and we’ve long since gotten to the point where we don’t have stratas of citizenship, so that anyone who comes here has the same chance as anyone else), and other issues.

    It’s just laughably facile to dismiss a complex, nuanced view of the issue that acknowledges the responsibility of the J-P in stirring the pot and the Danish government in failing to put a lid on it but that still doesn’t let the extremists off the hook for the violence.

    I have already explained that I wouldn’t have such a huge problem with the Islamist reactions if they were limited to lawful protest and did not include “infidels must be beheaded” -rhetoric. If they had only been like that.

    The “infidels must be beheaded” rhetoric was largely confined to countries like Syria, where it very well may be “lawful protest.” The filters again — we tend to forget that when we’re seeing protest around the world, the violent stuff is happening in places like that.

  28. Tuomas, sorry, but I believe a Dane who’s talked to Danes and Danish Muslims over you. What are your bona fides on the issue?

    *Shrug*. Not much. I’m just a semi-rural hick in Finland, from a journalist family, currently an university student ,who has only visited other Scandinavian countries, including Denmark, and noted that they’re pretty much same as here, only people sound funny. (Danes sound like Swedes who are trying to juggle potatoes in their mouths).

    As a Finn I know very well the effect of a totalitarian government (Soviet Union) demanding self-cencorship on free press (which, by caving in, effectively ceases to be free.) Of course, in defense of my homeland I can say that situation isn’t (yet) analogous (that is, it isn’t yet small country practically alone vs. a superpower), Europe can still resist the descent to Totalitarism. I also don’t trust secondhand anecdotes, rather I try to find the proven truth. (I suppose you just ignored the Wikipedia link about political parties in Denmark?) Don’t like Wikipedia? Try:
    The official site of Denmark on the Anders Fogh Rasmussen government

    As a test, I ask you: Would you also believe an American who has talked to 300 white supremacists in the south, when he/she would tell that the problem with America isn’t them, but because America is “racist to whites”?

    I would feel no shame on calling “bullshit” from all the way here on such crap, by doing some research on my own. Teh internets is teh power. 😉

    Personally I feel strongly that arguments count, not the fact who happens to be making them. Of course, people should be prepared to prove their claims.

    It’s just laughably facile to dismiss a complex, nuanced view of the issue that acknowledges the responsibility of the J-P in stirring the pot and the Danish government in failing to put a lid on it but that still doesn’t let the extremists off the hook for the violence.

    Emphasis added, and thank you for telling in clear words how great your commitment to Freedom of Press really is. Putting a lid.

    Your definition of nuance=appeasement. There is no nice way to put this.

  29. The “infidels must be beheaded” rhetoric was largely confined to countries like Syria, where it very well may be “lawful protest.” The filters again — we tend to forget that when we’re seeing protest around the world, the violent stuff is happening in places like that.

    Well, maybe. But then you are also admitting that these places do suck, to put it mildly, and there can be no equivalence. Free democracy vs. police states and those who support them in the west.

  30. Oh, please. Appeasement?

    You do realize that the J-P acknowledged that it fucked up? That they certainly had the right to do what they did — which, if you’ve been paying attention, I never once disputed, other than to point out that there is an anti-blasphemy law in Denmark — but that they made an error in judgment.

    And given that they had exercised judgment on the basis of religious offense to their Lutheran readership in the past, they knew quite well how to make judgments that running an offensive cartoon wasn’t the best of ideas even though they would have been well within their rights to do so.

    And hell yes, I think that the Danish prime minister blew the opportunity he had to put a lid on things. He could have simply said that the J-P made a mistake in their judgment and affirmed the country’s commitment to religious freedom, etc. In fact, 22 former diplomats urged him to do just that.

    But he didn’t, and so he has to share in the responsibility for the mess that followed. Note that I said “share.” I do not now and have never thought that he, or the J-P should bear sole responsibility, but this falls so squarely within “shouting fire in a crowded theater” that only a blithering idiot or stiffnecked ideologue couldn’t have seen this coming.

  31. But then you are also admitting that these places do suck, to put it mildly, and there can be no equivalence. Free democracy vs. police states and those who support them in the west.

    Gosh. Really? They suck? Who knew?

    Jesus. What do you think I’ve been saying all along?

  32. that only a blithering idiot or stiffnecked ideologue couldn’t have seen this coming.

    Sure. It’s predictable that if you print something derogatory towards certain groups, their reaction is likely to be violent.

    There are probably battered women who can predict the triggers that will set off their abusive husbands, too.

    …and so he has to share in the responsibility…

    Uh huh. She knew spending that $30 at Sears would set him off. The black eye is something she has to share responsibility for. He’s only partially responsible for the violence.

    Or doesn’t the share-responsibility meme apply when its someone whose interests you have at heart?

    And yeah, it’s incredibly offensive that I would make this comparison. That’s because this argument is in and of itself incredibly offensive.

    Tuomas is right. This is appeasement, plain and simple. Please don’t hurt us, we’ll be quiet! Shut UP, you guys! You’re making them ANGRY!

    Fuck that noise. The person getting violent over a drawing is the one at fault. Period. Full stop. Anything less is craven and disgusting.

  33. That’s because we don’t have the same issues with immigration that Europe does. We’re not a homogenous country and we’ve long since gotten to the point where we don’t have stratas of citizenship, so that anyone who comes here has the same chance as anyone else), and other issues.

    Sorry, three posts in a row.

    Let me tell you what is laughable: American progressives who usually blather how awesomely progressive the Scandinavian countries are (tax-payer paid education to upper degrees to anyone who passes the objective tests, quality health care, women in high positions etc… Of course [some of] these come with the cost of high, strongly progressive taxation) immediately denouncing Norway adn Denmark as evil racist countries which cruelly deny their Muslim citizens opportunities.

    Because the alternative would be to suggest that maybe, just maybe, the fact that Muslims in Norway and Denmark haven’t prospered isn’t the fault of the respective governments, and this would mean that progressives everywhere would have to critically examine the Islamic sub-culture therein, and maybe Islam in whole. Of course, since this will not happen, the only alternative is to blame the (predominantly white) countries, even if it is logically inconsistent. I believe TangoMan explained this phenomena.

  34. Robert, thanks for the support. (And thanks on behalf of Danes, if I can say that?)

    But you sound angry. Maybe drinking Carlsberg beer would make you feel better?

    😉

  35. Tuomas, this is not a zero-sum game. I fail to see the hypocrisy in praising some things and denouncing other things about any country, person, religion, etc.

  36. Lauren: I believe I made that exact same point on the previous thread. However, I also believe that people should have at least a moral obligation to support people who are threatened with violence simply for their speech/cartoons, even if they do not agree with them*.

    People here are making excuses for their lack of support. Just say that you are scared of the big bad terrorists. I understand that. It is a rare man or woman who doesn’t fear threats to his/her life (I know I do). But be honest about it. At least don’t claim that your “nuance” is so much better than a “simplistic” view.

    And FTR, I don’t mind insulting Christianity. Hell, Life of Brian is pretty insulting but it’s great fun.

    *: Voltaire said something about that, IIRC.

  37. Ahem. I believe I screwed up, Lauren.

    You responded to the thing about Scandinavian countries progressiveness, not to the free speech comment, it appears. But I retain my position on both, that is, I believe the major obstacle in integration is with the attitudes Muslims have (but the governments are partly responsible, mostly by multi-culturalist lunacy that keeps immigrants down.)

  38. but the governments are partly responsible, mostly by multi-culturalist lunacy that keeps immigrants down.

    Please explain. I’m convinced we speak different languages when we talk about multi-culturalism.

  39. I don’t reject multi-culturalism per se (it doesn’t matter what color/sex/religion people are) but I reject cultural relativism (no their value of female circumcision isn’t equally valuable). I also think big part of the problem are social workers who treat immigrants like big children and keep telling them that “they will encounter much racism”, which will become true as the immigrant learns to view the dominant culture negatively. Usually enterpreneurs with immigrant roots etc. don’t have nearly as much problems racism, and don’t throw accusations of racism around that much.

    Problem is the multi-culturalism that denounces the attempt to integrate in, say, the Finnish culture as being ashamed of own culture. Or the fact that, say, a Somali is seen as representative of the Somali culture rather than a potential citizen.

    I agree that it is sometimes bit of a “chicken or egg” situation. (Was racism before not integrating or vice versa.)

  40. Zuzu,

    But he didn’t, and so he has to share in the responsibility for the mess that followed. Note that I said “share.” I do not now and have never thought that he, or the J-P should bear sole responsibility,

    Does this mean we’ll be reading your editorials on how woman need to share the responsibility for rape if they were flirting with a man, wearing provocative clothing, etc? I’m sure the woman is exercising her right to flirt in a public place, to wear what she wants but you know, but she could have forestalled the rape if she did something different, blah blah blah . . .

    This sensitivity crap is getting out of hand. When Winnie the Pooh’s sidekick Piglet is banned, when Burger King has to discontinue a dessert because the lid is offensive, forbidding employees to wear England’s national symbol, firing an employee for eating a BLT sandwich because of the bacon content, banning children’s books which have pigs as the main characters, imposing a 2 year sentence on a pub owner for putting a “Porking Yard” sign in his bar window to indicate to the large community of butchers that they’re welcome in his establishment, and police seizing from a private home the porcelain pig collection displayed on a front window sill – all of this to appease Muslim sensitivities and damn the rights and freedoms of the dastardly perpetrators of these insensitivities, then I can certainly understand the context of how feelings of self-cesnorship arise and why people start to resent having sensitivity imposed upon them at the cost of losing their freedoms.

    I know that this isn’t a new thought for many, but it’s starting to dawn on me that Liberal ideologies are the same as oppression.

  41. Why racism, Tuomas? (Damn, and we were getting along, drinking beer and everything.) Idiotic paternalism, perhaps – the government will get you a job doing something you’re good at even if there’s literally zero need for what you used to do – but what’s racist? The people in question were originally camel farmers, and did know how to raise the animals.

  42. Okay, paternalism is probably a better word (bangs head on table for not taking own advice on accusations of racism). I just think a non-African immigrant wouldn’t get treated in the same level of condescension, and would be pointed out towards opportunities in education. But then, of course, there are the structural problems with unemployment etc.

    Hmm. Perhaps unemployment is actually one important cause of racism and non-integration. I’m trying to figure this out. (This, for me, is one of those, “hmm-mm, both sides have merit in the discussion issues”, like most issues, I was still at the “denounce those who oppose Freedom of Speech” -mode, which is simple issue.)

  43. Does this mean we’ll be reading your editorials on how woman need to share the responsibility for rape if they were flirting with a man, wearing provocative clothing, etc? I’m sure the woman is exercising her right to flirt in a public place, to wear what she wants but you know, but she could have forestalled the rape if she did something different, blah blah blah . . .

    Bullshit. And to your domestic-violence analogy, too, Robert.

    The J-P set out to stir up anger and provoke a reaction. They got what they wanted. That they didn’t intend for things to get so out of hand doesn’t excuse them from responsibility for their part in provoking it, nor does it excuse the Danish government from their failure to put a lid on things when they had the chance.

    IOW, they’re not responsible for the violence, but they sure as hell are responsible for creating and nurturing the conditions that quite foreseeably led to the violence. And they can’t just sit there in their offices clutching their pearls and gasping that they didn’t have anything to do with this.

    A better analogy is someone who starts a campfire in a dry forest. Sure, they may think they can keep it under control, and they certainly didn’t intend to set the forest on fire and burn up all those houses on that ridge there, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not responsible for starting the goddamn fire.

    Once again, it astonishes me that the very people who like to talk about the politics of personal responsibility are quite content to blame everyone else for their own actions rather than admit they fucked up.

  44. Yes, Muslims are just like trees. Once you set their anger on fire, they just can not help themselves.

    This is your argument, zuzu, not that of any of the conservatives.

  45. Zuzu,

    Bullshit. And to your domestic-violence analogy, too, Robert.

    . .That they didn’t intend for things to get so out of hand doesn’t excuse them from responsibility for their part in provoking it,

    IOW, they’re not responsible for the violence, but they sure as hell are responsible for creating and nurturing the conditions that quite foreseeably led to the violence. . . .

    A better analogy is . . .

    OK, no surprise at all that you didn’t like the analogies. What is glaringly obvious is that you completely skirted any effort to explain to us why the analogies fall apart.

    For you better analogy strategy to be effective you need to explain why your alternative is better than the ones you dispute, and how it is different in structure.

    I’m eagerly awaiting my education on this matter.

  46. What, “Bullshit” wasn’t good enough for you? How about “strawman?”

    I covered this. They set out to stir up shit. They knew that stirring up shit had consequences. They got what they wanted: stirred shit.

    I fail to see how burning the roast or wearing a particular length of skirt is setting out to be beaten up or raped. Neither bears any relation to the ultimate activity. Whereas, stirring shit leads to stirred shit.

  47. Let’s compare:

    They set out to stir up shit. They knew that stirring up shit had consequences. They got what they wanted: stirred shit.

    Neither bears any relation to the ultimate activity

    She set out to to flirt and tease. She knew that provacatively teasing him would get him excited. Then matters got more intense than she expected.

    Flirting and teasing are intimately tied to the ultimate activity of sex. They signal interest and desire for sex.

    He’s completely responsible for his own behavior and she bears no responsibility for getting him worked up because it was he who made the decision to cross the line.

    As much as you’re personally inclined to partially blame the victim in this case, Jyllands-Posten doesn’t bear any responsibility for the outcomes caused by the nutbars.

  48. zuzu, (I’m not being sarcastic) I really like your stirred shit example. It’s short, to the point, and shocking enough that maybe it will stick.

    I’m still hoping for a response to my comment at 6:33 yesterday. There, I granted your premise that the paper set out to insult Danish Muslims (stir up some shit). My question remains: “So what?” The paper hasn’t attempted to claim that the cartoons weren’t insulting (in fact, they apologized for the upset). And certainly no one is suggesting that papers should never insult anyone.

    The real issue here, regardless of J-P’s insulting behavior, is that some Muslims are rioting in the streets and throwing a huge hissy-fit. So now we have two separate behaviors to comment on:

    1. J-P prints offensive cartoons.
    2. Some Muslims get violent.

    If your position is that J-P should be prohibited from printing offensive cartoons, just say so. If your position is that Muslims shouldn’t get violent (and I suspect that it is) then just say so. Why do we care whether J-P’s offensive cartoons were intentionally provocative? Are you saying that given enough provocation, some violence is acceptable?

    Also, I still hope for some commentary on the analogy to Christian protests over artistic expression in this country. I encourage everyone to re-read what I wrote yesterday, but I’ll sum up here: (1) is the analogy apt? (2) if it is apt, what are we to learn — that Christians (and Muslims) shouldn’t protest when they’re offended; that Christians (and Muslims) should protest when they’re offended; that Christians (and Muslims) should be prevented from protesting when they’re offended; that Christians (and Muslims) should not get what they want when the protest, etc.

  49. When the Iranians run their Holocaust cartoons may we expect a rash of burned Iranian embassies? Will there be rioting and deaths? Sorry if I’m curlturally insensitive but if they can’t get their collective asses out of the 7th Century, ‘s not my fault.

    I think what the Danish paper did was tacky in the extreme. If I was the editor I would have spiked the cartoons. But I think Piss Christ was pretty tacky too and I’m not calling for a jihad against Cleveland.

    We need to separate the stupidity and insensitivity of the paper from the criminal actions that followed. The first does not, at any level, justify the justify the second. Liberal democracy and Sharia Theocracy cannot co-exist in the same country. They are as irreconsilable as slavery and abolition were in this Country.

    What is next in Merry Old England? A demand the female Burger King servers were bhurkas or better yet not go out on the street without a man lest some Imam be offended? Where does it end? Should we allow Muslims a special pass to stone adultresses? Allow four wives but to muslims only?

    Now we know why we have a written Constitution.

  50. If your position is that J-P should be prohibited from printing offensive cartoons, just say so. If your position is that Muslims shouldn’t get violent (and I suspect that it is) then just say so. Why do we care whether J-P’s offensive cartoons were intentionally provocative? Are you saying that given enough provocation, some violence is acceptable?

    I’ve never said that they should have been prohibited from printing the cartoons. I’ve said that they should have used their judgment when deciding whether to do so.

    Judgment, I may point out again, that they exercised in deciding to spike some Jesus cartoons on the grounds of giving offense. So they knew very well what they were doing. It’s absolutely relevant that the cartoons were intentionally inflammatory.

    Just because you have the *right* to say something does not mean that you *should* say that thing. You have the *right* to walk up to some big guy in a bar and start insulting his manhood and his mother, but you (probably) wouldn’t do that. Why? Because you know he’d kick your ass.

    And the J-P’s editors knew that running the cartoons would get their asses kicked, but they did it anyway. They knew that the cartoons had no real artistic or editorial merit, that they didn’t really provide serious commentary but were simply inflammatory and relied on lazy stereotyping, and that there were better ways of making the point they wanted to make. But they and the government were spoiling for a culture war, so they ran them anyway.

    And they didn’t even get their asses kicked right away! The big guy at the bar gave them a chance to admit they fucked up (i.e., the nonviolent protests in Denmark in October), but they didn’t, and then the whole thing snowballed from there.

    And, no, I don’t think the violence is excusable. But I don’t think that the violence gets the J-P off the hook, either. They deliberately laid the ground for it and the government deliberately passed up the chance to contain the incident — which they certainly could have done without curtailing freedom of the press or freedom of speech, but simply acknowledging that they fucked up and used bad judgment and that this was not the most constructive way to address these issues.

    TM, it’s still not working. Flirting does not lead to rape, but taking a stick and stirring the shit leads to stirred shit. Try again.

  51. zuzu, I didn’t mean to imply that you had said that insulting press should be prohibited. That was unclear writing. I was looking for answers to the questions of blame and did it in a snarky manner. My bad.

    I still disagree with you that the cartoons had no merit but (as I’ve been arguing), the merit of the cartoons should be irrelevant to our disapproval of the rioters. On the other hand, maybe we need to talk about whether the merit of the cartoons should be relevant to our disapproval of the paper.

    One position is that the merit of the cartoons doesn’t matter. If the cartoons were intentionally offensive (regardless of their artistic or editorial merit), then that is enough to judge them “in bad taste” and condemn the paper for running them. zuzu’s analogy to the big guy in the bar seems to suggest this position: it doesn’t matter if the big guy is a mysognist bastard, you don’t insult him because you are afraid (or the rules of society are such that it’s not okay to provoke big guys).

    Alternatively, it’s possible that cartoons which are intentionally offensive, but artistically or editorially noteworthy, are okay and the paper should not be condemned for running them. Here, the key is whether the cartoons had artistic or editorial merit.

    I agreed yesterday to proceed as if the cartoons were intentionally offensive. I did not, however, agree that they had no artistic or editorial merit. I would be interested in knowing which of the above positions the commenters around here agree with and if they agree with the second, what their thoughts are on the merit of these cartoons.

    zuzu, just what about these cartoons is “simply inflammatory and relied on lazy stereotyping”? Some of them depict the disconnect between radical Islamists and the Muslim faith. Others are simple representations of Mohammed and were created to show that artists in Denmark are afraid to depict Mohammed (I don’t know if you’d heard, but the point of the original J-P article was that Muslims had so intimidated non-Muslim Danes that artists were refusing to do work that conflicted with Muslim sensibilities for fear of violent reprisals). Is it possible that some of the cartoons did have merit, but others did not?

  52. They knew that the cartoons had no real artistic or editorial merit, that they didn’t really provide serious commentary but were simply inflammatory and relied on lazy stereotyping, and that there were better ways of making the point they wanted to make.

    I’m dumbstruck after reading this comment that you’re still advancing this position, considering the amount of background data that was introduced by many commenters over the course of the 3 posts dedicated to this topic. You haven’t veered from your Liberal chimera by one iota, facts be damned.

    No editorial merit? Yeah, forget about the self-censorship issue. Note Toumas’ comment above: “I know very well the effect of a totalitarian government (Soviet Union) demanding self-cencorship on free press (which, by caving in, effectively ceases to be free.)”

    Serious commentary? The exercise of free speech is prima facie evidence of serious commentary. Beyond that, the intolerance in the face of freedom is the exclamation mark to the whole incident.

    Were simply inflammatory When the leading Danish Imam is asked on TV whether respectful portraits of Mohammed would have made any difference, he stated that the issue would still be the same. So, the issue is the portrayal of the Prophet and how his depiction must be completely forbidden, even for infidels.

    Better ways of making the point Yeah? Enlighten us, please.

    Flirting does not lead to rape

    Q: Hey Kobe – would you have approached that woman if she didn’t signal receptiveness to you.

    A: Why no, if she expressed no interest, I would have moved on.

    Q: So would you say that the flirting was the start of the chain of events, kind of like stirring shit yields stirred shit?

    A: That’s an interesting way of putting it, but yeah, the cause and effect are parallel. I certainly would not have dragged the woman into my room against her will. What happened is she expressed interest and I responded but then things got out of hand and I should have stopped but this could have been avoided if she hadn’t responded favorably in the early game.

  53. (I don’t know if you’d heard, but the point of the original J-P article was that Muslims had so intimidated non-Muslim Danes that artists were refusing to do work that conflicted with Muslim sensibilities for fear of violent reprisals). Is it possible that some of the cartoons did have merit, but others did not?

    Why, yes. Yes, I had heard that. In fact, it was discussed in the Salon article I linked to in the post. Furthermore, here’s the outcome of one of the specific examples that the J-P had cited:

    The Danish children’s book author, Kare Bluitgen, who ostensibly was unable to find an illustrator willing to draw Mohammed, has published his book with a picture of Mohammed on a winged horse on the front cover. The book is respectful and schmaltzy. The abstract in one book catalog reads: “The minute Amina conceived Muhammad, she felt as if in another world. In the unusually sharp light she saw the castles in Busra in Syria many days travel away. And all the camels in and around Mecca whispered to each other that a future leader had been conceived.” You get the picture.

    See? The sky didn’t fall, and the author found an illustrator after all. Perhaps it’s not so oppressive in Denmark as all that (and maybe the comedian just wasn’t funny).

    I also think you’re not getting what I’m saying about some other things (but at least it seems that you’re trying):

    zuzu’s analogy to the big guy in the bar seems to suggest this position: it doesn’t matter if the big guy is a mysognist bastard, you don’t insult him because you are afraid (or the rules of society are such that it’s not okay to provoke big guys).

    Insulting the misogynist bastard isn’t going to accomplish much except possibly getting your ass beat. Critiquing his views and the views of other misogynist bastards is a lot more constructive. Yet you still get to be critical of the misogynist bastardry, and he might actually listen. Or maybe his friends will, and they’ll talk to him.

    Get it? It’s all in the approach. Clearly, Denmark was ready to have the conversation about the untouchableness of religion in the arts, but why the hell run a cartoon showing Mohammed with a bomb for a turban? What does Mohammed have to do with suicide bombings? Did they even have gun powder when he lived?

    If the J-P were serious about talking about the issue, they could have done so — and the fact that Denmark has an anti-blasphemy law on the books is a good place to start. They’re a friggin’ newspaper! Write an article that actually talks about the issue! But why go out of your way to solicit cartoons of Mohammed when you *know* they’re going to be offensive and you *know* they don’t actually address the issue you say you want to address? To start a culture war.

  54. This news from Sweden should make some people here happy. The Swedes seem to have elevated “respect” to be a principle given greater weight than “freedom” and the security police “suggested” to the ISP that they take offline the server of a Swedish political party that was hosting cartoons.

  55. TangoMan writes: Yeah, forget about the self-censorship issue. Note Toumas’ comment above: “I know very well the effect of a totalitarian government (Soviet Union) demanding self-cencorship on free press (which, by caving in, effectively ceases to be free.)”

    You are deluding yourself if you think that American newspapers don’t practice self-censorship so as to not offend their readers. For example, do you really think that a major US newspaper would publish a cartoon showing Jesus fondling a small boy (as a commentary on the priest scandals of a few years ago?)

    There are three (at least) types of “self-censorship” that newspapers might engage in: (1) trying not to offend those in power, (2) trying not to offend the majority population, (3) trying not to offend a minority population. American media engage in all three at times, but surely number (3) is the least like totalitarianism.

  56. What does Mohammed have to do with suicide bombings?

    “When ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks. Those who are slain in the way of Allah – he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden (of Paradise), which he has announced for them.” – Surah 47:4-5

    Other verses make it clear that martyrdom is a high honor, to be sought aggressively.

    These people may be misreading or misinterpreting, but the person they’re misreading or misinterpreting is Mohammed, not Dorf.

  57. They weren’t just hosting the cartoons. Here’s the BBC report on the Swedish story:

    The Swedish Democrats are a small anti-immigrant party with no representatives in parliament, but a few local elected officials.

    Jomshof said the newspaper had a print run of about 30,000.

    He had asked readers to send in their own Muhammad cartoons, but he denies intending to offend Muslims.

    His website briefly posted a picture showing Muhammad from the rear, looking into a mirror, with his eyes blacked out – an image he said was about self-censorship.

    Suuure, they didn’t intend to offend. Let’s throw some kerosene on the fire!

  58. You are deluding yourself . . . do you really think that a major US newspaper would publish a cartoon showing Jesus

    It is forbidden to portray Mohammed. It is not forbidden to portray Jesus. I’ve seen plenty cartoons of Jesus in newspapers. Recall that the leading Imam in Denmark stated the caricature wasn’t the issue, it was the mere act of portrayal.

    zuzu,

    The point is that the good “progressive” gov’t of Sweden knows which values to uphold with its coercive power. Swedes have learned that they must abide by Muslim taboos and not depict Mohammed in any fashion. Welcome to the long awaited Multicultural paradise.

  59. The point is that the good “progressive” gov’t of Sweden knows which values to uphold with its coercive power. Swedes have learned that they must abide by Muslim taboos and not depict Mohammed in any fashion. Welcome to the long awaited Multicultural paradise.

    No, the good progressive government of Sweden doesn’t want to have its own embassies bombed, thankyouverymuch. It’s managed to stay quite out of the controversy until some anti-immigrant wingnuts decided to start dragging them into it.

    You can make the argument that the J-P didn’t know what it was in for, but at this point, you can’t make the argument that the Swedish paper didn’t know what was coming. Because it would have been the very definition of “encitement to riot.”

  60. No, the good progressive government of Sweden doesn’t want to have its own embassies bombed, thankyouverymuch.

    Folding in the face of violence. What part of that is not appeasement?

    You can make the argument that the J-P didn’t know what it was in for, but at this point, you can’t make the argument that the Swedish paper didn’t know what was coming.

    If one woman is raped while wearing a miniskirt, and it was used as an excuse (like the cartoons are used as an excuse) then the second one should know what was coming.

    Better wear a burqa.

  61. Clearly, Denmark was ready to have the conversation about the untouchableness of religion in the arts, but why the hell run a cartoon showing Mohammed with a bomb for a turban?

    This is interesting: Denmark and Danes are collectively responsible for a fucking picture (okay, he/she draw a bad picture. Tsk, tsk, and that’s it), but Muslims are never (in your worldview) collectively resposible of, well, anything.

    Either embrace the politics of invidualism and collectivism, but not both depending on the color/religion/gender of the offenders.

  62. In-Vidal-ism, a pernicious doctrine of hierarchy and supremacy based on who is sleeping with Gore Vidal…devastated half the gay community of NYC before being stamped out…a tragic reminder.

  63. It is forbidden to portray Mohammed. It is not forbidden to portray Jesus. I’ve seen plenty cartoons of Jesus in newspapers. Recall that the leading Imam in Denmark stated the caricature wasn’t the issue, it was the mere act of portrayal.

    Yes, because the two different belief systems have different taboos. This means that the willingness of any given newspaper to simply portray Jesus is not indicative of their greater willingness to offend Christians. A parallel situation would be a major newspaper publishing a cartoon of Jesus, say, fondling a little boy. That image would be as offensive to Christians as a caricature of Mohammed is to Moslems.

  64. Daryl McCullough:

    For example, do you really think that a major US newspaper would publish a cartoon showing Jesus fondling a small boy (as a commentary on the priest scandals of a few years ago?)

    Bad analogy. Who would declare war on whole America on that? Where is the threat of violence? Who would declare war on any nation on that?

    “Self-cencorship” in scare quotes. What’s up with that? I posted a specific example of self-cencorship that is imposed on a whole nation with the credible, centralized threat of violence, that is IMHO analogous to non-centralized acts of violence Islamic terrorists threaten Denmark with.

    You blather about American media, while this whole scandal had nothing to do with America, and those evil, oppressive American Christians. Get over your silly obsession.

    Again, making business choices based on what readers will pay for is different to bowing down to violence, that is sponsored and encouraged by oppressive regimes/ideologies. Those that threaten violence by:

    1)Invasion by the Red Army

    2)Terrorism: non-discriminating (military, non-combatant etc.) suicide bombings, beheadings and plain murders against a whole nation and its citizens everywhere.

    Even threatening the actual “culprits” (scare quotes because they had the right to do what they did) with death would be disgusting enough.

    Robert:

    Careful. Hampster lovers are going to get you for that.

  65. Here in the UK we have had demos about the cartoons (our media have not shown them BTW) with Muslims carrying placards saying that people should be beheaded. Although my ‘favourite’ image from the London demo is the young Muslim man dressed as a suicide bomber – 7 months after 4 UK Muslim men killed 52 people in suicide bombings of 4 underground trains on 7/7, and maimed hundreds of others. Nothing – certainly not cartoons about a mythical god – justifies this.
    Interestingly, this young man is now back in prison, as he breached the terms of his parole from prison on drug dealing charges – very holy!
    As someone who has worked on promoting equality for a long time, I have until recently tried not to get involved in discussion about peoples religious beliefs on the basis that they were not hurting me and people are entitled to their beliefs. But increasingly I cannot keep quiet, as believers (both Christian and Muslim) are trying to, and succeeding, in encroaching on my rights and way of life.

  66. Shameful. Finland follows the “example” set by Sweden.

    Media is, it seems, returning to the old habit of self-censorship.

    Check out some Orwellian doublespeak:

    Best bit:

    In Virkkunen’s view, the matter would turn an issue of freedom of expression, if it turns into pressure aimed at dictating how the Islamic world should be discussed in the Western press.
    “And then we would also have to reconsider printing the cartoons”, he says.

    Good! If(!) there would be pressure aimed then they would consider printing the cartoons. I’m glad there is no such pressure anywhere. *Furious eye-rolling*

  67. Tuomas says: Media is, it seems, returning to the old habit of self-censorship.

    Media always practices self-censorhip. It always has, and it always will. A newspaper that doesn’t take into account the effect of its articles on readers won’t stay in business.

  68. Here in the UK we have had demos about the cartoons (our media have not shown them BTW) with Muslims carrying placards saying that people should be beheaded. Although my ‘favourite’ image from the London demo is the young Muslim man dressed as a suicide bomber – 7 months after 4 UK Muslim men killed 52 people in suicide bombings of 4 underground trains on 7/7, and maimed hundreds of others. Nothing – certainly not cartoons about a mythical god – justifies this.

    Wait a second! I thought the right to free speech was sacred and that people should never, ever self-censor!

  69. Media always practices self-censorhip. It always has, and it always will. A newspaper that doesn’t take into account the effect of its articles on readers won’t stay in business.

    Well, that’s what I’ve been saying all along about the “J-P should offend Christians” -claim! That instance had nothing to do with business sense (the watchers of YLE are not muslims, by and large), and everything to do with fear of Muslim retaliation. What part of “media should not capitulate to threats of terrorism” you don’t understand?

  70. “Business sense” dictates that you should respect majorities, who buy a lot of papers and could hurt business if they’re offended. It doesn’t necessarily dictate that you should respect minorities. Indeed, it may sometimes be a sound business decision to insult or scapegoat minorities, if they’re widely disliked and don’t have enough purchasing power for loss of their business to harm you. So what you’re basically saying is that it’s open season on small, powerless minorities.

    What part of “media should not capitulate to threats of terrorism” you don’t understand?

    What part of “the media shouldn’t need threats of terrorism to convince it to respect minorities” don’t you understand?

    You know, I’m the granddaughter of Austrian Jews. You’d think I would be a bit less naive about European attitudes towards minorities.

  71. Well, that’s what I’ve been saying all along about the “J-P should offend Christians” -claim! That instance had nothing to do with business sense (the watchers of YLE are not muslims, by and large), and everything to do with fear of Muslim retaliation. What part of “media should not capitulate to threats of terrorism” you don’t understand?

    So, free speech is a lofty principle that the paper should take a stance on, so long as that stance doesn’t cause them to, y’know, lose money. It’s not courageous to make a point about the right to offensive free speech if the only offense you’re willing to commit is against outsiders you have no respect for.

  72. I’m not saying they shouldn’t (hey, it’s their business) take a stance on free speech if it makes them lose money, I’m saying that the true freedom of press is tested when push comes to shove (threats of violence, or demands from foreign governments.).

    What part of “the media shouldn’t need threats of terrorism to convince it to respect minorities” don’t you understand?

    Respect the minority… Or else!

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