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Children in Public, Round 3403942

The New York Times’ “Room for Debate” topic this week is kids. Specifically, “Are modern parents being rude when they impose on other people on sidewalks, planes and bar stools? Or just doing what’s best for their children?” Per usual, there are some worthwhile contributions. And then there are the clueless:

Many people don’t want our “breeder” strollers on their sidewalks or our loud children in their bars. They don’t want kids on airplanes or in restaurants. They think it is parents of young children who have become self-absorbed, but I think it is something else. It’s our society. It’s broken.

We no longer have any tolerance for other people’s needs.

As parents, our entire worlds revolve around these little people. We bathe them and feed them and dry their tears. We bandage little knees and transport them to 100 activities a day. Parenthood is overwhelming and hard and stressful at times.

Nice people make it all easier. People who smile at our tantruming child with a face that says “I’ve been there, too” fill us with relief. That nice older man who holds the door for me as I struggle to squeeze my double wide stroller through the door at Starbucks makes my day. It’s not ideal. I feel guilty and encumbered by 1,000 things. But a little thoughtfulness makes me feel like we are all in it together. I get that it was my choice to procreate. I am not asking for “special” treatment. I just want kindness and respect.

My children have as much right to be on a plane and as much right to cry when their ears pop as the single, childless hipster in his fedora and skinny jeans. My children have the right to eat in a restaurant and learn to keep their volume down by experimenting. I have a right to use a stroller and not get dirty looks. Kids are just small people. Deal with it.

I agree that many of us lack tolerance for other peoples’ needs — and folks who live in NYC and push double-wide strollers into tiny crowded restaurants so that waitstaff and other patrons can’t get by are high on the list of the supremely self-absorbed.

Hostility towards children in public is obviously supremely uncool. But here’s the thing: Lots of people are self-centered assholes. And lots of people don’t stop being self-centered assholes just because they have kids. And when you live in a city where there isn’t a lot of extra space, and where a lot of one’s life takes place in public, mutual respect is imperative. Kids in bars or restaurants? No biggie. Treating a bar or a restaurant like a playground? Not respectful to the other patrons! This isn’t rocket surgery, and some of the frustration at children in dining establishments does not come from a place of child-hate. It comes from a place of frustration toward parents who are being disrespectful.

Do children have a right to be on a plane? Yes. Families need to travel sometimes too. Are children on planes probably going to cry? Duh, yes. Are people who get actually mad about crying babies on planes, to the point of glaring at parents or making snotty comments (instead of just inwardly cringing and then realizing that the baby’s parents have it way worse), pretty big jerks? YES. Is “My children have as much right to be on a plane and as much right to cry when their ears pop as the single, childless hipster in his fedora and skinny jeans” a very convincing argument? I fly a lot, and while I’ve had my share of unfortunate travel experiences, an adult man screaming and crying on an airplane has not been one of them. Babies screaming and crying on airplanes though? Happens nearly every time I fly. Because they are babies, and crying is what they do. And that’s ok!

But let’s be real about the “I don’t want special treatment” thing. Of course you do. I mean, if “kids are just small people” and you don’t want special treatment, then you buy your baby a seat on the plane, right? You understand why people are hostile toward a crying baby, the same way they would be with an adult who spent the entire plane ride screaming? No? Sometimes special or different treatment is ok, because babies and children are unique classes of people with unique needs. Their brains, social skill sets and communication abilities haven’t fully developed. And so any decent society should understand that they deserve a little extra leeway. That’s a good thing. But let’s not pretend that it’s not special or different treatment (of course, let’s not also pretend that society isn’t pretty shitty to parents, and to mothers in particular). And reasonable parents seem to understand that part of parenting is socializing your child — taking them out to parks and to play with other kids while stepping in if they start to hit; taking them to “grown-up” restaurants and expecting that, like all other patrons, they stay seated, and not bring an iPad turned up to max volume for entertainment; taking them to movie theaters, while explaining that talking during the movie isn’t appropriate; taking them on planes while not tolerating them kicking the seat; etc etc etc. You know, helping them to develop and understand social norms and good behavior.

As you can probably guess, the line that got my hackles particularly up was “My children have the right to eat in a restaurant and learn to keep their volume down by experimenting.” Ha. Sure. Yes, it is your children’s RIGHT to scream in a restaurant, and you are definitely not going to interfere or tolerate a dirty look from another patron who does not enjoy hearing screams in restaurants, because your children are EXPERIMENTING as is their RIGHT! No special treatment requested, though. None at all. And it’s definitely everyone else in New York City who’s a self-centered jerk.

Kindness and respect go both ways.

The contributions from bartenders and waitstaff are also important:

But children absorb and internalize how their parents behave. So what happens when a kid sees his mother hogging tight restaurant space with a gigantic baby stroller while anesthetizing him with portable DVD player playing at full volume tableside? What life lessons does he learn when this father lets them run between the legs of servers who are carrying bowls of hot soup? It teaches children that they can do what they want whenever they want and ignore the needs of other people. If you ask me, that’s setting up kids for a future of dealing with irate waiters and sky-high psychotherapy bills.

That possible outcome doesn’t stop some parents whose self worth is neurotically tied up in their kids from demanding that restaurants bend over backward to accommodate their offspring. That is a mistake.

Children need to be exposed to the world of adults — a world that does not always have to be infantilized for their supposed well-being. Watching their moms and dads politely interact with other grown-ups in a restaurant teaches children how to say please and thank you, sit still and appreciate the hard work of servers and busboys hustling to make a dime. Indeed, a restaurant can help raise a child, but only if the parents teach and practice good manners themselves.

What a ground-breaking observation.

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299 thoughts on Children in Public, Round 3403942

  1. At a certain point failing to discipline kids ought to qualify as a form of child abuse, simply because the amount of trauma a stern talking to/a little yelling/a timeout will create now is infinitely smaller than the amount of pain and frustration raising an entitled little shithead is going to cause both the child and the people around them when they grow up.

    I work with people now whose parents clearly never told them when they fucked up. They are pretty much impossible to correct – the first time you tell them they do something wrong, they act like you drowned their cat in front of them.

    /kidding about the abuse thing
    //mostly

  2. I agree this writer expresses things poorly. But the idea of “special treatment” is problematic to me in that it’s based on the idea that childlessness is the norm, that adults are regular people, just the way sexism sees able-bodied adult men as the norm. Would you call accommodations for people with disabilities “special treatment” or is it a matter of fairness?

    In this country and especially in middle class areas children are part of public spaces far far less than most places around the world. Just because a few neighborhoods are popular with families doesn’t change this. When I was in Guatemala people were playing with their babies and nursing in a movie theater. That’s not the norm here, and that’s fine. But let’s not act like kids have “taken over” every space in our culture, because it’s just not so.

    1. I absolutely agree with the first point you make It. Our culture is based around able-bodied adults with children of all ages merely being tolerated.

    2. it’s based on the idea that childlessness is the norm, that adults are regular people, just the way sexism sees able-bodied adult men as the norm.

      Where in the US is childlessness considered the norm? Especially among women? ‘Woman = mom’ seems to be the default in this society, which pisses me off to no end.

      Ann Romney went on and on about the hard work of moms during her speech. And not to dismiss the hard work that mothers do, but we non-parents work hard too.

      1. In my opinion, it’s one of the places where actions and words are at odds. On the one hand, family values think of the children blah blah fishcakes. On the other, no state-subsidized childcare, our parental leave is a joke, what do you mean you can’t work overtime, etc.

        1. I agree with you on those points. One of my co-workers, on temporary assignment here in the US (she was English, stationed in Ireland), was absolutely shocked at the maternity leave policy. She asked “Why am I always hearing about ‘family values’ over here?”

      2. We certainly do pay a lot of lip service to the notion of family values here in the U.S. Sadly I think the reality is that employed people here are expected to act as though their whole life is about work and expect little, if any, accomodations to the reality that they may have children. Women especially get the shaft where work life is concerned, because they are expected to be just like the men with whom they work in order to compete and be successful. Except so many of those successful men with whom they are competing or for whom they are working have wives at home running their lives for them so that they can dedicate themselves to work so completely.

      3. Kristen – I agree that women=mom is prominent and a problem – my point was that the claim that accommodating kids is “special treatment” places marginalizes them and their caretakers. And I think those can go together – women=mom, but moms shouldn’t be here or do this or do that, so it’s more things women can’t do. So, for example, the traditional suburb is both child-centric and anti-mother: centered around traditional families, but isolating mothers at home without public spaces to build community.

  3. I predict wonderful things for this thread.

    That said, I am thrilled they included the perspective of a waiter and a bar owner. I was once in a restaurant (not terribly crowded, but not dead, either) where a father was allowing his son to rollerblade around the floor. The servers were having a hell of a time with this kid and this parent, and given how slow it was, and that this was essentially a newish neighborhood place, they were clearly reluctant to say anything to that entitled jackass lest it affect their tips or the word-of-mouth.

    1. I have some good cocktail party stories about out of control kids from my table waiting days. Every person who’s ever worked in food service has them. It’s the crappiest position to be in, because no matter how uncomfortable or unsafe the kids/parents may be making the restaurant, you’re never allowed to say anything to the parents. The customer is always right, and you need them to tip you so you can pay your rent and get the train to school the next day or whatever. So I also appreciate that they put the comments of the restaurant employees in there, and that they got a chance to voice what they probably usually swallow.

      Honestly, though, for every kid who tried to climb my legs or slapped his mother when I was trying to take her order, there were dozens who ate at the restaurant and just happened to be children. It’s unfortunate, but the few parents who let their kids run wild really do ruin it for everyone.

      1. I have family in the restaurant business, from waiters to owners. I’m really glad the industry perspective was included, and your comment about tips is spot-on. I know it feels crappy when your (general “your”) special date at an upscale place is disrupted by something like this, but it what really sucks is that the perspective of the staff is really lost in all the wailing of the inconvenienced diners. Especially in this economy, the wait staff can’t afford to lose tips and the owners can’t afford to alienate customers. I just wish that everyone writing the butthurt “the kid was loud and the waiter did nothing!!!” screeds on yelp would consider that.

        The fact that in most states the wait staff are exempt from minimum wage regulations is really a huge problem. I don’t want to derail, but I’d really like to flip the script in these discussions from inconvenienced diners to restaurant workers who are literally struggling to put food on their own tables and have to put up with a lot of shitty behavior from customers. And I’m sure the badly behaved kids are just a small fraction of this.

      2. Honestly, though, for every kid who tried to climb my legs or slapped his mother when I was trying to take her order, there were dozens who ate at the restaurant and just happened to be children. It’s unfortunate, but the few parents who let their kids run wild really do ruin it for everyone.

        Yes. In an ideal world, it’s not the child you don’t know is there that makes you annoyed; it’s the child who’s making his presence known by screaming or running around making things difficult for the server because her parents can’t be bothered to watch her that makes you annoyed. But if you see enough of that latter behavior, you start having selection bias.

      3. Everyone who works in almost any public service field shares part of your pain, but I’m particularly sympathetic to the fact that servers’ pay directly relates to how much their customers like them. Since I don’t rely on tips, it’s easier (though still difficult and unfun) to tell parents that their children are misbehaving. If I see children riding their bikes in the building, I can say “Hey, excuse me; I need you to stop riding your bike in the building” and I’m not worried that it’s going to lose me tips.

    2. Rollerblading in a restaurant? Charming.

      I bet the offending parents would threaten to sue if the kid crashed into a waiter carrying hot soup and the kid got scalded.

  4. I get that some parents are jerks and a great many children are too loud/boisterous to be in some places. But, the primary point is that kids are people, too. No, children are not like dogs except that they are animals in the mammal family. They are humans of a certain age.

  5. Great, another parents are jerks for the sin of procreating, let us enumerate their sins article. It must be Wednesday, oh wait, it’s a day early this week.

    Lots of people are self-centered assholes. And lots of people don’t stop being self-centered assholes just because they have kids.

    How about, having kids does not automatically make someone an asshole, despite our cultural narrative to the contrary?

    I fly a lot, and while I’ve had my share of unfortunate travel experiences, an adult man screaming and crying on an airplane has not been one of them.

    Maybe not literally crying or yelling, but I’ve definitely been on plenty of flights with adults (pretty much always men) who were being loud and obnoxious, and taking over my personal space by insisting on hogging the armrest and splaying their legs out into the space of adjoining seats and/or the aisle. But they get a pass, because they’re men being manly, and nothing like a child fussing or crying.

    So what happens when a kid sees his mother hogging tight restaurant space with a gigantic baby stroller while anesthetizing him with portable DVD player playing at full volume tableside? What life lessons does he learn when this father lets them run between the legs of servers who are carrying bowls of hot soup?

    This person clearly wants it neither way. No kids in strollers, contained so that they aren’t running around and getting underfoot (and more likely to stay quiet because they are more comfortable in their stroller.) But no kids walking around the restaurant either. And don’t bring anything to keep the kid amused during the meal. If they must be present, children must remain still and sit mutely so as to not remind anyone else that they exist.

    Where’s my bingo card? I’ve already got kids in strollers, in restaurants and on airplanes. All I have left is a child being breastfed in public without being covered by a blanket the size of a king size comforter to win!

    1. Seriously. No screaming kid has ever bothered me as much as Very Important Businessmen booming away on their cell phones, or that asshole breaking up with his girlfriend in a very dickish way on the phone on a bus, or those jerks who spread their legs to take up three seats.

      I actually have been on a flight with a grown man screaming and crying the whole way. He had his reasons.

      folks who live in NYC and push double-wide strollers into tiny crowded restaurants so that waitstaff and other patrons can’t get by are high on the list of the supremely self-absorbed.

      You know, a restaurant that can’t accommodate a double-wide stroller probably can’t accommodate a wheelchair either.

      1. You know, a restaurant that can’t accommodate a double-wide stroller probably can’t accommodate a wheelchair either.

        EG for the win, once again!

        You average double stroller ranges from 36 to 39 inches in width, as does you average wheelchair. This is done for a reason, so that a double stroller will fit through any ADA compliant doorway.

        Really, you want my two littles contained in a double stroller and taking up sidewalk space instead of walking. Of course you would judge me anyway if I let them walk because the older one would be all over the place, or maybe worst of all in a harness so that he won’t bolt out into traffic.

        But guess what, I’m a jerk and a rotten mother either way. Best for me to stay indoors and at home all.the.time so that I never inflict my kids on the general populace or remind them that I have a uterus.

      2. You know, a restaurant that can’t accommodate a double-wide stroller probably can’t accommodate a wheelchair either.

        No. A wheelchair pulls up to the table, just like any other seat. The issue with strollers is that they end up parked next to the table, in the aisle of the restaurant. Blocking the people who work there. And while kids are indeed people, waiters and staff are people too, and they deserve to work in an environment that isn’t hazardous.

        1. There’s no reason for that, though. Take away the unnecessary chair, just as you do for a wheelchair, and roll the stroller on in.

        2. Nonsense, most strollers can actually be pushed up to the table as well. Really, they can, I’ve done it numerous times. The handlebars can also be pushed down or retracted so that they then don’t stick out into other patrons way as well. If a kid is in a highchair, then I don’t see why the restaurant can’t possibly find a spot for the collapsed stroller while the family is eating.

          This also doesn’t change the reality that a restaurant that is too crowded to fit a double stroller between tables is also not going to accomodate a wheelchair getting through.

          And that doesn’t mean that I’m saying all parents and kids are perfect, but I am saying that we must stop working from the assumption that all parents and their kids are jerks from the second they walk in the door simply for the state of being parents and children.

        3. Nonsense, most strollers can actually be pushed up to the table as well. Really, they can, I’ve done it numerous times. The handlebars can also be pushed down or retracted so that they then don’t stick out into other patrons way as well. If a kid is in a highchair, then I don’t see why the restaurant can’t possibly find a spot for the collapsed stroller while the family is eating.

          This also doesn’t change the reality that a restaurant that is too crowded to fit a double stroller between tables is also not going to accomodate a wheelchair getting through.

          Well, I can only explain what I’ve seen, which is this: Many NYC restaurants are small. Tables do not accommodate more than four people. If you have a party of four, and one of those four is a small child, that is four chairs (with one of them being a high chair). If that child ALSO has a stroller that the parents are not willing to leave outside, then you have an additional stroller which, no, cannot be pushed up against the table, because the table is a four-top and the kid is already in a high chair. Because if the kid is in the stroller, he’s lower than everyone else and hard to reach/see. So he needs to be in a chair. So the stroller goes in the aisle of the restaurant. And that blocks patrons and waitstaff. Unlike a wheelchair, which is wheeled directly up to the table in place of a chair.

          The whole problem here is that we’re talking about massive double-wide strollers that parents seem unwilling to collapse and put aside. If the strollers were being collapsed and put aside and out of the way, we would not be having this conversation.

      3. But guess what, I’m a jerk and a rotten mother either way. Best for me to stay indoors and at home all.the.time so that I never inflict my kids on the general populace or remind them that I have a uterus.

        No one is calling you a jerk or a rotten mother. I think it’s pretty obvious that what the OP refers to is situations in which the parent takes the child somewhere that the child does not want to be, one in which the child is either running and screaming out of boredom or sat in front of a TV screen. If you’re going to bring someone somewhere they don’t want to be, that offers them nothing, they are bound to have a negative attitude and that will make a negative impression on other people.

      4. You know, a restaurant that can’t accommodate a double-wide stroller probably can’t accommodate a wheelchair either.

        There’s a decent chance that a small restaurant that *can* accommodate the one can’t accommodate *both* of them at once. Taking up that space is analogous to using a handicapped-accessible stall for a prolonged period of time: it’s occupying a space that may very well be needed by someone else.

        1. Thanks, but that isn’t what we’re talking about.

          The point still stands that a restaurateur or his employees getting up in arms about how they can’t possibly fit in a stroller are missing the point that this will also translate into their either being unable or unwilling to make room for and accomodate a wheelchair. Not accomodating a wheelchair automatically puts you in asshat territory, full stop.

          1. The point still stands that a restaurateur or his employees getting up in arms about how they can’t possibly fit in a stroller are missing the point that this will also translate into their either being unable or unwilling to make room for and accomodate a wheelchair. Not accomodating a wheelchair automatically puts you in asshat territory, full stop.

            Not accommodating a wheelchair is indeed asshat territory. However, as many people have said, it is actually not true that being unable or unwilling to make room for a stroller = unable and unwilling to make room for a wheelchair.

        2. So true. That’s why it’s simply awful of women who have to use public bathrooms while out with their kid to go into the wheelchair-accessible stall rather than just leave the stroller outside.

        3. However, as many people have said, it is actually not true that being unable or unwilling to make room for a stroller = unable and unwilling to make room for a wheelchair.

          Unable = unable. If the issue is unwilling, though, I’d like to know why it’s acceptable to have infrastructure and norms that treat strollers as though they’re not normal.

        4. I think your being unfairly generous with lots of restaurants, their employees and their patrons and their desire to accomodate those in wheelchairs.

          But whatever, this is turning into a useless match of gotcha. It all really just comes down to apologizing for anti-women and anti-kid bias, because what if the kid is being loud, or badly behaved, or ruining my kid free space, or, or, or, without ever really allowing for the reality that these are the outliers in the bigger picture.

        5. Not accomodating a wheelchair automatically puts you in asshat territory, full stop.

          So does wanting to *take* the space that could be used for a wheelchair.

          Look, it doesn’t matter why the proprietor doesn’t want strollers in the restaurant. Saying “of course there’s room — look at the handicapped-accessible table!” makes *you* an asshat. Because that person in a wheelchair who comes in after you? Isn’t going to have room, because it’s being taken up by your stroller.

          It’d be awesome if there were room for everyone’s stroller and wheelchairs, but small restaurants also want to make money, and that requires a certain number of tables.

          So no, the space for wheelchairs is not a valid argument in favor of you bringing in a stroller. It’s the opposite — and that’s true regardless of the motives behind banning strollers.

    2. This person clearly wants it neither way. No kids in strollers, contained so that they aren’t running around and getting underfoot (and more likely to stay quiet because they are more comfortable in their stroller.) But no kids walking around the restaurant either. And don’t bring anything to keep the kid amused during the meal. If they must be present, children must remain still and sit mutely so as to not remind anyone else that they exist.

      Wait, you mean expecting kids to sit in a seat like every other patron? How demanding!

      He also isn’t saying “don’t bring anything to keep the kid entertained.” Bring books, coloring paper, whatever! Just don’t bring what’s basically a portable TV with audio. I don’t think that’s so ridiculous.

      1. Wait, you mean expecting kids to sit in a seat like every other patron? How demanding!

        Again, this is disingenuous. Is every adult patron expected to sit still and mutely the entire meal? I didn’t think so. Adults are free to talk and laugh and play with their stupid Blackberry or iPhone or whatever, but children are held to a higher standard.

        I’ve actually been yelled at for taking my kids to the local neighborhood Chinese restaurant by someone who insisted that a “a public eating establishment is no place for a child.” Never mind the take out window and flat screen tv playing the football game. Or that it was 2pm on a weekend afternoon.

        Your starting to sound an awful lot like that guy in the Chinese restaurant, Jill.

        1. Seriously? Are you really arguing it’s okay to bring a private TV to a restaurant and have your kid watch it? Because I find that about ten different levels of gross, from the fact you can’t separate your kid from a TV to the fact you’re not socializing with your own kid to the fact that having any kind of above-speaking-voice is obnoxious as hell.

          Look, I like kids. I’m the person that carries decks of cards to play with kids on planes on five or seven or fifteen hour flights, who lends out my DS and offers to hold fussy infants to give people a break. I was a kid with ADD and I understand meltdowns and bad days and being overstimmed. I write most people a mile wide check when it comes to kids because of that.

          But, in the name of Christ, if your kid has to watch TV at a restaurant, give them headphones.

        2. Seriously? Are you really arguing it’s okay to bring a private TV to a restaurant and have your kid watch it? Because I find that about ten different levels of gross, from the fact you can’t separate your kid from a TV to the fact you’re not socializing with your own kid to the fact that having any kind of above-speaking-voice is obnoxious as hell.

          Look, I like kids. I’m the person that carries decks of cards to play with kids on planes on five or seven or fifteen hour flights, who lends out my DS and offers to hold fussy infants to give people a break. I was a kid with ADD and I understand meltdowns and bad days and being overstimmed. I write most people a mile wide check when it comes to kids because of that.

          But, in the name of Christ, if your kid has to watch TV at a restaurant, give them headphones.

        3. Again, this is disingenuous. Is every adult patron expected to sit still and mutely the entire meal? I didn’t think so. Adults are free to talk and laugh and play with their stupid Blackberry or iPhone or whatever, but children are held to a higher standard.

          Kids are free to talk and laugh and play and check their email. If an adult is watching a TV show at full volume on their iPad, though? I am probably going to give them the evil eye. And if they don’t stop, I am going to ask them to turn it off. I would imagine the waitstaff would also ask them to turn it off, at most places, or put on headphones.

          The issue really isn’t with the kid, or with kids being held to “higher standards.” The issue, as I’ve seen it, is with parents who think that the presence of a kid = an excuse for bad and abnormal behavior.

        4. Is every adult patron expected to sit still and mutely the entire meal?

          As quiet as a mouse and as still as a statue? Of course not. Reasonably quiet and respectful of others around them? Yes.

          Adults are free to talk and laugh and play with their stupid Blackberry or iPhone or whatever,

          While this may have been your experience, it hasn’t been mine; I have, on more than one occasion, given “the glare” to people talking on their cell phones in restaurants, buses, and otherwise quiet public places. For some reason I don’t totally understand, people tend to talk louder on their cell phones than they would talking to someone right beside them. Not to mention their conversations are less inhibited and they’re often talking about things that I myself wouldn’t be talking about in public and would have thought others feel the same way. I don’t need to hear the intricate details of someone else’s breakup or how so and so’s friend betrayed them, stabbed them in the back, how drunk or stoned they got at last night’s party, who they had sex with and what they did, someone’s gastrointestinal problems…whatever. I don’t need or want to hear any of that shit. Especially not when my significant other and I are trying to enjoy a quality meal in what would otherwise be a quiet environment; which brings me back to kids. Young kids’ voices are very high pitched, shrill and penetrating – more so than adults which is another reason they might bother me *slightly* more than an adults voice, though still enough that I would like them to make an effort to think about others around them…or get out or be asked to leave if they persist. If asked in a polite respectful way, they usually get the point and tone it down. You can’t ask that of kids.

  6. The “kids are people too” argument is somewhat disingenuous, since there are lots of negative aspects to being an adult person that kids get a free pass on because they are still developing their social skills. A grown man who ran up and down the aisles at a diner would be quickly invited to leave the premises.

    The anti-disciplinary arguments seem to be based around rights and tolerance, but it all runs one way: People have a right to have an emotional response to the behavior of your family when they’re sharing the same public space. And childish ignorance is no excuse, I cannot, as an American,” travel to vastly different cultural sites with any sort of realistic expectation that I would not garner disapproval, “because I’m learning the culture.”

    Learning is best achieved by looking, listening, and mostly opening one’s mouth to ask questions, not by screaming at a movie screen with the sheer exuberance of being four years old and full of sugar.

    1. The “kids are people too” argument is somewhat disingenuous….And childish ignorance is no excuse…

      That’s true only if we assume “people”=adults. Children are a perfectly normal model of personhood.

      1. Am I really the only person here who has been in a restaurant with loud people, who are usually drunk (and once again, so often men) carousing and being obnoxious? Are we all going to be disingenuous and not admit that those people get a pass generally because people are intimidated and don’t want to confront adults in a way that they are not with children?

        At the end of the day, people feel no compunction with giving kids and parents the stink eye and judging them because they are easy targets. Mothers even more so. It’s become like a sport these days, bash away on those breeders and their kids and their strollers. But don’t ever make fun of the hipsters and their skinny jeans and their ironic donning of hats.

        1. How many people actually confront children, though? Because giving the stinkeye isn’t actually a confrontation.

        2. Well, but how many articles get published about how obnoxious boisterous white dudes are? Whereas not a month goes by without some “OMG KIDS IN PUBLIC WHERE I HAVE TO DEAL WITH THEM” piece appearing.

        3. And most of the parents I know have been confronted at least once by some stranger who could totally parent better than they can, if that stranger is to be believed.

        4. Maybe no articles get published about how obnoxious boisterous white dudes are because we, as a culture, take it as a given that boisterious white dudes are obnoxious. Dog bites man and all.

          What we don’t take as a given is the appropriate thing to do or say when a child is loud or boisterous in public, or whether it’s appropriate to say anything at all, and to whom, and in what spaces, etc.

        5. Zuzu, see my comment above about the neighborhood Chinese restaurant. And we were confronted even though our kids weren’t doing anything wrong. We were literally yelled at for having the nerve to bring a child into a restaurant (a local neighborhood dive, at that) and nothing more.

        6. So one guy yelled at you. Who was he? The owner? A regular? A barfly? Cranky old man who hates everything?

        7. Maybe, zuzu. Or maybe we don’t see those articles because boisterous white men have the social power to get away with acting however they want.

        8. Zuzu, it’s not an isolated incident. It happens to parents not infrequently. It happened to my mother, for instance. You’re sounding like men who just don’t buy that being catcalled on the street happens routinely.

        9. I don’t disbelieve that parents get drive-bys. But you seem to think that obnoxious drunk people never get thrown out of quality establishments or asked to settle down.

          Like I said, bouncers exist for a reason.

        10. That kind of thing happens all the time. You should have heard what people used to say when I would only let my toddler son out of his stroller in crowded shopping malls if he were attached to a leash. He didn’t mind, and I didn’t mind, and it’s not like I called him Fido. Better than losing him.

        11. In my not inconsiderable experience, drunken white dudes have to be a lot more obnoxious, and come far closer to being actually physically threatening before being escorted out by a bouncer, than kids do before some childless stranger who Knows Everything is nasty to them.

          Park Slope parents (who I guess are different from all the other parents in the world?) don’t lack social power, but children do. They’re an easy target.

        12. I couldn’t afford Park Slope in my wildest imaginings. Never mind most of the East Coast. For whatever it’s worth, I’m in the midwest.

          I’ve been out plenty with or near adults who were way drunk and out of control. I’ve rarely ever seen anyone get tossed out for said behavior. I’ve even had bouncers refuse to do anything about drunk guys grabbing at me and my friends and being completely innapropriate, because you know guys can’t help themselves when they see a nice ass and have a little too much to drink.

          But I have been given loads of grief from total strangers because of my kids, mostly when they weren’t even doing anything wrong. The Chinese restaurant guy was some random older dude, and the owners came over and apologized after he left for his asshatedness. And plenty of my child-having friends have similar stories.

          Is it really that hard to admit that our society holds children and their parents to a higher standard then it does others? Mothers even more so?

  7. Am I really the only person here who has been in a restaurant with loud people, who are usually drunk (and once again, so often men) carousing and being obnoxious? Are we all going to be disingenuous and not admit that those people get a pass generally because people are intimidated and don’t want to confront adults in a way that they are not with children?

    At the end of the day, people feel no compunction with giving kids and parents the stink eye and judging them because they are easy targets. Mothers even more so. It’s become like a sport these days, bash away on those breeders and their kids and their strollers. But don’t ever make fun of the hipsters and their skinny jeans and their ironic donning of hats.

    I have never in my life confronted an adult, child or parent about their rude behavior in public. I just leave or suffer in silence and that’s what most people do. I certainly never blame the child for being a child, if I am angry at anything it is because the situation sucks. Whether you are on a plane with a screaming baby or a screaming businessman it sucks. And if you are traveling with that screaming businessman and someone looks at you as if to say ‘could you please calm your friend down?’ you shouldn’t think of it as the ‘stink eye,’ merely as an understandable non-verbal plea to do what you can to help the situation. Same for the parent of an screaming child.

    1. But implicit in that is the idea that actual parent isn’t already doing what they can, and that you, a stranger, is more unhappy about hearing the kiddo scream than they are. That’s pretty insulting and stressful.

      1. But implicit in that is the idea that actual parent isn’t already doing what they can, and that you, a stranger, is more unhappy about hearing the kiddo scream than they are. That’s pretty insulting and stressful.

        But sometimes that’s true. Parents are people too — they don’t always do what they can or what they should. Just like everyone else on the planet. And when that impacts others, we have a right to be annoyed about it.

        Also? I don’t doubt that parents also find screaming children annoying and stressful. But I will point out that when it’s your own kid or a kid you personally know? It is sometimes less annoying. Bad behavior is sometimes perceived as cute. I’ve experienced that first-hand in caring for children, and had to check myself.

        1. Sometimes that’s true. But can the casual stranger actually tell? As accurately as I’m sure zie thinks zie can? I doubt it. And from experience, strangers are not reserving the stinkeye for parents who don’t care or aren’t doing everything they can. I have actual friends who are total douchebags about children.

          My experience is that the distress and crying of children I’m caring for are far more upsetting and grating than that of strange children. With strange children, I have the comfort of thinking “This is so not my problem.”

          1. That’s my usual reaction as well. Except for in cases where I think that the child’s distress is caused by the parent.

            By the way, it seems Jill is talking about screaming “naughty” kids and EG is talking about upset and distressed kids. Two different things.

      2. True! Nothing more mortifying as a parent than hearing your kid scream in public. Other kid? Whatevs, just a kid being a kid.

        1. Yes, other kids screaming fall into the infinitely comforting category of Kids I Do Not Personally Have To Do Anything About, especially Babies I Do Not Personally Have To Nurse. My kids screaming is the much more disturbing category of Oh Shit, Younger Son, What Specific Thing Did You Do That You Forgot You Were Told Not To Do?

  8. It’s not the crying on airplanes that gets to me with kids (I have a giant pair of headphones and volume dial that goes to 11 for that ;)). It’s the parents who have kids big enough to kick the back of my seat for hours on end and can’t control them or the people who scowl at me when their kid get’s into my bag and starts playing with something and I take it away from them before the bawling starts.

  9. Children need to be exposed to the world of adults — a world that does not always have to be infantilized for their supposed well-being. Watching their moms and dads politely interact with other grown-ups in a restaurant teaches children how to say please and thank you, sit still and appreciate the hard work of servers and busboys hustling to make a dime. Indeed, a restaurant can help raise a child, but only if the parents teach and practice good manners themselves.

    I really love this. Blocking children off into little “kids only” spaces does no one a service. Ironically, I think the American obsession with childrens’-only-everything ties in just as much to our strange, over-the-top idealization of childhood as it does to child-hate.

    1. “Ironically, I think the American obsession with childrens’-only-everything ties in just as much to our strange, over-the-top idealization of childhood as it does to child-hate.”

      I think you’ve got a definite point there…

    2. Ironically, I think the American obsession with childrens’-only-everything ties in just as much to our strange, over-the-top idealization of childhood as it does to child-hate.

      I completely agree. And I think one of the reasons we have such a difficult time discussing this issue is because acceptable standards of behavior vary so widely from community to community. A child running around in a restaurant, even a family style restaurant in Hawaii would be considered extraordinarily rude. But a child running around in a restaurant in the community where my goddaughter lives is fairly typical. There isn’t a single view of what is appropriate behavior by parents or children. Add to that the fact that some portion of human beings of every category are assholes and VOILA children in public wars round 3403942.

  10. I’ve been thinking a lot about the stroller thing. I think half the time people hate the stroller cuz the trains in NYC are so crowded. I mean, heck, people with roller suitcases suck too.

        1. Point being, we should accomodate both.

          It isn’t like people have a lot of options other than strollers. I carry my infant in the city, but many people have injuries or illnesses that would make that impossible.

        2. In the moment? Seems like six of one, half a dozen of the other to me. We’d need someone who’d done both to say, I guess.

        3. This. Babies are infinitely more portable* than an adult in a wheelchair. Plus, babies don’t go out alone like adults often do.

          I’ve done both wheelchair and pushchair subway, bus, and train rides. They’re just not the same. I wish people would stop pulling out “But wheelchairs!” as a gotcha.

          Pushchairs can be folded, dragged or carried up stairs or down stairs with assistance. Babies can sit in laps, or snuggled up to a chest, or on a hip.

          Wheelchairs can’t be folded up, dragged or carried over obstacles. Not only are metal chairs very heavy on their own, but there’s that whole person thing to consider.

          Someone in a chair can’t sit on someone’s lap or hang around someone’s neck. Unlike babies they often don’t have a +1 to help.

          Then there’s the fact that some wankers treat chair users as furniture. Shopping hung from chair handles, dumped in laps or on shoulders FFS. Head used as an elbow rest, chair kicked and shockingly, forcibly pushed somewhere else!

          *Yes, yes I know there are mummies and daddies who can’t carry baby because of health issues, but generally speaking, little ones are specifically designed to be luggable. I grew up before kneeling buses were a thing, they all had stairs. Pushchairs were not allowed on buses or trains unless they were folded up, and placed in the special designated area. Children weren’t entitled to a seat either, so baby bro sat on mother’s lap, while I stood between her legs, It helped me learn about gravity and velocity very quickly though!

          Chair users? Taxis or nothing. It’s better for everyone now, but wheelchair users will always be more restricted than pushchair users. At least the vast majority of babies grow up and can ditch their wheeled conveyances!

      1. Speaking of boisterous white dudes, especially if they’re wearing suits, there’s really nobody less likely to offer a parent with a stroller a hand in getting it up or down the subway steps. Or to offer such a parent — or anybody else, no matter how elderly, pregnant, or unwell — a seat on the subway itself.

        1. Seriously! What is going on there? Elderly white men, men of color, all kinds of women offer their seats, not just from my observations, but also from the reports of a friend who uses a cane and another friend who was recently pregnant. Young(ish) white men, especially in suits? Never.

        2. Because we demanded the vote and suggested that we could open our own fricken doors, therefore Chivalry Is Dead, apparently.

          (Offering up a seat because it’s common courtesy never occurs to them, apparently)

        3. So true! I’ve had to physically block men in suits so that a mom could get her baby on the subway safely. When I was younger and single, I also saw men in suits hold the door for me after ignoring moms with strollers. If you aren’t deemed fuckable by a certain subset of men, manners go out the window.

  11. I guess because people here have to drive everywhere, I don’t see strollers in businesses other than the mall. I always carried my kid in and put her in the highchair. Once she could walk, we walked in together, with her holding my hand. Never even occurred to me to put her in a stroller just to get her into a restaurant. Had the older, small stroller back then too. Couldn’t afford the hummer version of strollers they make today. At Disneyland last year there were strollers everywhere, which didn’t bother me until people started parking them right behind my ass when I was in line. I almost tripped over one at a register because the lady pushed it right behind me.

  12. Assuming that children will always behave in public or else parents should leave them at home is classist. A good percentage of women in this country can’t do that, because can’t afford child-care, are the sole parent, have a partner who works long hours to keep them out of poverty, etc. etc. etc. A night out will cost around $150 with babysitting, and median after-taxes income is roughly $3k. Making women with children feel unwelcome in public if their kids are even mildly misbehaving is tantamount to barricading them in their house.

    Yes, kids should always be taught good standards of behavior in public. And some spaces aren’t really kid spaces. Bars should be kid free unless it’s like 11 am and it’s officially kiddotime. Movies, I get (I’ve been to a baby matinee and let me tell you, it’s basically impossible to hear a movie with the wailing of a baby in the background.) But most other social spaces should be equally OK with kids and adults. How else will kids learn to be adults?

    It’s reasonable to expect people to take their kids out of a restaurant the instant they start to cry, and doing slaloms between a waiter’s knees is NEVER acceptable. But it’s unreasonable to expect children to not be in those spaces at all or to hew exactly to the norms that are expected for adults. Most people I hear bitching about this expect kids to be even better behaved than adults.

    AS for strollers–look, I hate strollers–they’re heavy and annoying and impossible to drag up and down the stairs of our apartment. I take my baby in a sling or a carrier if I go to a restaurant, and just put a napkin on his head so I don’t drop soup on him. But I also recognize that many women (hello twinsies or close-in-age siblings) simply could not leave the house if they didn’t have a stroller with them. So have a little compassion for those who basically would be housebound without bringing them out. And as for folding them up–yes, sometimes it’s possible to do so, but a lot of times babies are asleep and people are terrified of waking them up (because of patrons who will hate on then for yelling).

    So lots of “clueless parent behavior” is actually a somewhat harried compromise between the ideal and the need for them to leave the house to feel human. Seriously, have some compassion.

    For the record, I live in San Francisco and I rarely see kids misbehaving in public, nor do I see instances of baby- or kid-haters making snide commits or giving the stink-eye. This weird Park Slope meme of clueless parents and baby haters seems pretty foreign to me.

    I actually saw a lot more of both in the suburbs, where hours-long mall jaunts and endless supermarket trips are the norm. Probably because it’s pretty easy to whisk a kid out of a tiny corner store–not so easy to do in a six-level Macy’s.

    * I also think that parents should be more okay with other people disciplining their children in public or at least telling them acceptable social norms. I remember a few adults telling me to use my indoor voice or to stop blocking the aisle when I was in a store as a youth, and it was way more effective than having my mom or dad tell it to me for the 800th time. HAving kids know what other adults think of them can be instructive.

    1. “A night out will cost around $150 with babysitting, and median after-taxes income is roughly $3k.”

      Your math is dubious at best.

      1. what? Median income in this country is around 44k–when you take out taxes, etc. I’m guessing that’s around 3k a month. I forgot to say month but thought that was obvious.
        Also, a babysitter usually costs about $15/hour here. For five hours=$75 + tip =$85. Then two movie tickets and a meal could easily run you $55. So okay, maybe not $150, $140.

        What is dubious here?

  13. Children need to be exposed to the world of adults — a world that does not always have to be infantilized for their supposed well-being. Watching their moms and dads politely interact with other grown-ups in a restaurant teaches children how to say please and thank you, sit still and appreciate the hard work of servers and busboys hustling to make a dime. Indeed, a restaurant can help raise a child, but only if the parents teach and practice good manners themselves.

    When I was a server (at a reasonably upscale restaurant), I never minded parents bringing their kids with them as long as they were teaching their kids good manners. The ones who let their kids use the sugar caddy as a toy and open all of the packets of sugar and sweetener all over the table? I hated them.

    (I would also say that my parents took me and my siblings to Windows on the World, which was the restaurant on the top floor of the World Trade Center when we were between the ages of about 10 and 14. It was amazing. I’ve always been grateful that they were willing and able to expose us to all kinds of experiences from a relatively young age.)

    1. I agree. My parents dragged me to about 800 sitar concerts as a child. Also 4-hour foreign films and annoying adult parties where all the aunties and uncles played Gin Rummy. I hated them but I quickly learned that a) you have to behave in public and if you don’t you get stuck at home. b) my parents lives did not revolve around me. c) being an adult can be fun d) life does not end when you have a kid. All those are reasonable life lessons.

      1. I don’t know. I got dragged to the kind of four-star-films and marathon Whitman readings and tedious grown-up parties that had me longing to be stuck at home.

        1. Which is kind of really the issue. I fundamentally have control over where I go and how long I spend there, and if I’m somewhere I don’t want to me doing something I don’t want to do, it’s because I’ve decided the reward for doing that is worthwhile. The same just wasn’t true for me when I was a kid. I didn’t want to go to crafts’ fairs or Whitman readings or grown-up parties. I wanted to stay home and read my book.

          And now, when I’m in a shitty mood or have a headache, I can cut my social interactions short. I have the luxury of arranging my work to accommodate that. Kids can’t. They never have the option of saying “No, I don’t want to go sit at a table with you and my horrible sister while you eat dinner in a loud restaurant and laugh interminably with your very boring friends.” They don’t have the mood-managing mechanisms that adults do, by which I mean calling and saying “You know, today just isn’t going to work for me, I’m sorry. Can we reschedule?”

        2. EG, I think it depends on what you’re trained to think is normal. I learned this was just normal and expected of me (and all the other kids at said parities), and basically was okay with it until I got to be old enough to go to junior high with people for whom it wasn’t normal.
          Now, my parents also used to say things like “want to go to the pet store and look at puppies?/buy some stickers/do fun kid activity?” and then they’d do a switcheroo where we’d somehow wind up just “swinging by” the grocery store, etc. That pissed me off because I was tricked.

          But when doing what your parents want you to is just expected, you sort of build up the muscle for doing what they want, if that makes sense.

          Of course, now that I am an adult, I have zero tolerance for those activities. Literally, they come into town and want to go to a museum or a four hour foreign film? I veto ALL THE TIME.

        3. Some of it is that, but I also think that some of it is temperament. I got dragged to all kinds of things, and I never really built up tolerance for being bored or for my sister or for doing what my parents wanted. I was fine as long as I could sit somewhere with my book, but when that wasn’t an option? I was never, ever fine.

      2. and I never really built up tolerance for being bored or for my sister or for doing what my parents wanted. I was fine as long as I could sit somewhere with my book, but when that wasn’t an option? I was never, ever fine.

        Your parents don’t owe you entertainment at all times though, and shouldn’t have been expected to curtail their own lives because EG will get bored. That’s just part of the growing up experience. Sometimes, you have to go places and sit bored for hours. It won’t kill you. Boredom isn’t a very good excuse to be rude. I had to sit through many a very boring recital/play/kid activity as a parent and my kid had to sit through pretty boring adult dinners/activities. Lesson? Being bored is not the end of the world. It’s part of life. Sitting through meetings at work? Boring. Dishes? Boring. I too would rather be reading, but there you have it. But I can sit through boring meetings and I can sit through boring recitals because I learned how to sit quietly through boring things as a child. I am not owed entertainment.

        1. Yes, pheeno, obviously I threw and continue to throw temper tantrums every single time I feel bored. That is the obvious conclusion to draw from my statement.

          The fact is that I have far more control over what situations I find myself in now than I did as a child, so I minimize my boredom. My parents didn’t owe me constant entertainment, but nor did I owe them the pretense that I had any interest in their parties, their crafts fairs, or Walt Whitman. Hence the book.

        2. Yes, pheeno, obviously I threw and continue to throw temper tantrums every single time I feel bored. That is the obvious conclusion to draw from my statement.

          I addressed your comments specifically and also addressed other comments as whole. There’s a lot of “parents should know better than to bring kids to boring adult spaces” going on which completely ignores the fact that you have to sometimes take the kid out of the house in order to have a life of your own and teach the kid how to be polite even when bored out of his or her mind.

          There’s this bizarre idea that children are owed entertainment, from either the parents or other patrons around them. Shoddy parents make it the patrons responsibility, excessively indulgent parents allow video games in quiet places but the idea that children have to be taught this skill rarely gets mentioned. There’s a fine line to walk, because you need other environments in order to teach your child how to exercise patience and manners but it shouldn’t be at everyone elses expense. Your comment about being bored as a kid was simply a good jumping off place for my point. It didn’t mean you were a temper tantrum throwing brat. But resenting parents for taking you to boring places? Welcome to life. Shit is often boring for kids and adults alike. There’s no point in resenting it unless you do in fact think you were owed entertainment.

        3. If you quote me and then write in reply, then, yes, I’m going to assume you’re replying specifically to that excerpt. Go figure.

          But resenting parents for taking you to boring places? Welcome to life. Shit is often boring for kids and adults alike. There’s no point in resenting it unless you do in fact think you were owed entertainment.

          I don’t understand what you mean about there being “no point.” What’s wrong with resenting being bored? It’s a very unpleasant experience. I still resent it, when it happens. Lots of things that suck are part of life, and I resent them. And you know what? Since there would be no reason not to let me read a book, I would sure as hell resent that.

        4. Why shouldn’t they feel resentment on those occasions?

          Why should they? Did the school purposely make a play so boring no one could stand it? No. Was it boring out of spite? No. Was it overly long out of haha! we’ll make you sit here for HOURS and watch other people’s kids forget their lines!!

          Did you, their child, set out to get a part in the play to punish your parents with boredom?

          No?

          Then why on earth should they resent something that’s part of normal life activities that everyone has to do at some point or other. It’s not as if they were singled out or exempt from the horrors of boredom.

      3. I don’t understand what you mean about there being “no point.” What’s wrong with resenting being bored? It’s a very unpleasant experience.

        It doesn’t change the boredom. Doesn’t fix it. Doesn’t stop it from happening. Doesn’t even prevent future boring events. It just makes you more miserable than you need to be. What’s the goal? Are you trying to make other people feel guilty? In the case of your parents, what the hell else should they have done? Stay home? Pay a babysitter so you weren’t bored? Allow you to be anti social and sit in a the corner reading your book so you weren’t bored? How exactly does that prepare you for boring life situations where you can’t whip out a book? It doesn’t. Preparing you and exposing you to a variety of interests, things, places, people and situations was part of their duty as parents. And having their own lives on occasion isn’t something deserving of resentment, anymore than you would deserve resentment if and when they had to attend boring school functions or activities YOU found interesting.

        I’d rather be reading a nice book than doing a lot of the things I have to do, but resenting those things doesn’t get them done faster or make the time pass more quickly. It generally tends to do the opposite and makes 2 hours feel like 10. So I’ve only accomplished making myself more miserable and probably making those around me slightly uncomfortable because resentment can be picked up on and noticed.

        Just don’t see a point to it unless you particularly enjoy feeling resentful.

        1. Maybe that’s how feelings work for you, but that’s not how they work for me. I don’t sit around and think “What do I get out of feeling X?” and then decide whether or not to feel it. I just feel it. Resentment doesn’t make me miserable. Whatever it is I’m resenting is what’s making me unhappy.

          Allow you to be anti social and sit in a the corner reading your book so you weren’t bored? How exactly does that prepare you for boring life situations where you can’t whip out a book?

          Yes, that’s what they should’ve done. That’s mostly what they did do. It harmed/s nobody. And…prepare me for boring life situations? I’m not even sure what that would mean. Taking your kid to dinner with your friends is preparation for…what, precisely?

          Being bored now is not like being bored then, because, as I have stated more than once, I have much more control. I avoid boredom. If I’m in a boring situation, it’s because I’ve decided that what I get out of it is worthwhile. Neither of those things was true for me then; I got nothing out of Whitman, nothing out of grown-up parties, and nothing out of crafts fairs.

          I have found in my grown-up life that there are very few boring situations that I have no control over, am not getting anything out of, and cannot whip out a book during. It is one of the great advantages of being grown-up.

          you would deserve resentment if and when they had to attend boring school functions or activities YOU found interesting.

          Why shouldn’t they feel resentment on those occasions? Are parents not allowed to have negative feelings or something? You write as if feeling resentment were this horrific burden that hurts oneself and others. That just isn’t my experience of it. It’s a pretty pedestrian emotion.

        2. Yes, that’s what they should’ve done. That’s mostly what they did do. It harmed/s nobody.

          Then what on earth are you resentful of? The few times they didn’t and actually expected you to attend an adult dinner with no entertainment?

          I can see resenting that as a child, when it happened. But still resenting it as an adult? Is that what you’re saying because that’s what I’m getting from your posts. That you, as an adult, still hold resentment for having to go to a few boring adult activities when you were a kid.

        3. I can see resenting that as a child, when it happened. But still resenting it as an adult? Is that what you’re saying because that’s what I’m getting from your posts. That you, as an adult, still hold resentment for having to go to a few boring adult activities when you were a kid.

          I remember how I felt as a kid, and I don’t see any reason why I shouldn’t have felt that way; I completely understand why I–and other kids–resent being dragged to such things and I sympathize with them, because no fun. I never said I still resent it–but I don’t recant my childhood resentment, either.

        4. I remember how I felt as a kid, and I don’t see any reason why I shouldn’t have felt that way; I completely understand why I–and other kids–resent being dragged to such things and I sympathize with them, because no fun. I never said I still resent it–but I don’t recant my childhood resentment, either.

          I understand it too from a child’s perspective. They’re still in the process of learning how to deal with being bored, how to handle doing things that aren’t fun etc. But to me, it simply falls under the category of manners. They’re still learning manners so some leeway can be given. They’re not going to be perfect all the time, and there’s a reasonable amount of time to expect them to be able to sit quietly and a point where it no longer becomes reasonable and the parent needs to take the kid home.

        5. Meh. I understand it from an adult situation, because if God forbid, I ever find myself in a comparably powerless situation again, I’m sure I’d feel the same way I did back then.

        6. Meh. I understand it from an adult situation, because if God forbid, I ever find myself in a comparably powerless situation again, I’m sure I’d feel the same way I did back then.

          Well, from someone who is often in those comparably powerless situations, I can tell you that all you’ll do is make yourself feel worse. And possibly alert others to your feelings about it. Which will make them feel bad too.

      4. I don’t sit around and think “What do I get out of feeling X?”

        No one has to sit around and actually think ” what do I get out of this”. Over the course of time, though, I’ve noticed that time passes more quickly when I’m not sitting there pissed and bitter about having to sit there and do nothing. And I notice that other perfectly innocent people around said bitter resentful person tend to grok they’re sitting beside a bitter, resentful person and end up feeling uncomfortable because of it. Even though they’re not the cause of the resentful feelings. But they sure get affected by it. Lovely, that. Just because I’m bored and unhappy doesn’t mean I get to make others uncomfortable.

        Taking your kid to dinner with your friends is preparation for…what, precisely?

        For when you have to attend boring adult dinner parties, functions, work situations, childrens boring school plays etc. It teaches you patience. It teaches you how to get through things that you don’t want to do but have to do. And it should teach you how to do so with some consideration for all the other people around you who might not find some activity boring. It teaches you how to behave around adults, how to behave in public and how to exert some control over your own emotions when faced with a boring situation you can’t get out of. It teaches you that you don’t always get what you want, when you want it. It teaches delayed gratification. It teaches you how to function in a social setting. It teaches you how the adults in your culture behave in social settings. Sitting quietly through some boring thing is a skill. It has to be taught. And it’s not exactly the kind of thing that can just be taught with words. It takes experiences. And it’s a necessary thing for a parent to do. Otherwise, you end up with kids who do not know how to behave because they’re BORED!! which will guarantee suffering for everyone. Parents, kids, innocent bystanders alike. And then those kids grow up to be obnoxious adults who make sure everyone around knows they’re bored and how unfair that is.

        By taking you to boring adult dinners, you were being taught a great many things. Did you throw temper tantrums? You’ve said no. Do you complain and fidget and sigh loudly when out in public when you’re bored at some event? Doubtful. That skill and knowledge doesn’t just magically pop into people’s heads upon adulthood. It takes some work. It takes some life experience. And it’s easier to learn these things starting at a young age than having to learn them as an adult.

        1. And I notice that other perfectly innocent people around said bitter resentful person tend to grok they’re sitting beside a bitter, resentful person and end up feeling uncomfortable because of it. Even though they’re not the cause of the resentful feelings. But they sure get affected by it. Lovely, that. Just because I’m bored and unhappy doesn’t mean I get to make others uncomfortable.

          That’s very unfortunate for them, but I’m not going to police my internal feelings on the off chance that people sitting near me might pick up some bad vibes. Sometimes people feel bitter and resentful. That is, as you say, a fact of life.

          For when you have to attend boring adult dinner parties, functions, work situations, childrens boring school plays etc.

          No. All those things fall under the category of “things I have control over and/or am choosing to do because I get something out of them.” I don’t “have” to attend boring adult dinner parties. If a party is boring, I can leave. If I’m at a boring school play, I’ve decided to be there to make the kid in it happy. The operative differences are control and decision-making. I don’t get dragged to shit any more. Being control and making those decisions makes it all infinitely easier for me.

          I read through most such things when I was a kid. And yet I’m a fully functional adult. There are lots of ways to teach most things.

        2. No. All those things fall under the category of “things I have control over and/or am choosing to do because I get something out of them.”

          Not all those things fall under that category for everyone.

          I’ve sometimes had to attend adult dinner parties that bored the ever loving snot out of me, but it was expected I attend and not leave. Leaving would be considered extremely rude. Same with family functions. And job requirements. A boring mandatory meeting every single Monday that didn’t even have anything to do with my job. Weddings bore me to death, but I go when invited because the person inviting me cares. I don’t leave because that’s rude.

          I read through most such things when I was a kid. And yet I’m a fully functional adult.

          And yet, you were drug to boring things on occasion.

        3. That’s very unfortunate for them, but I’m not going to police my internal feelings on the off chance that people sitting near me might pick up some bad vibes. Sometimes people feel bitter and resentful. That is, as you say, a fact of life.

          There’s a very large difference in our views here.

          If it’s not harmful to me in any way, then I consider “policing” those internal emotions so that others around me are able to enjoy themselves to be a simple matter of courtesy and good manners.

          It doesn’t harm me one bit to let go of resentment over boredom so that other people don’t have to feel guilty or be affected by it. My boredom isn’t their fault, nor should it be their problem.

        4. That’s just a large gulf, then, as you say. Because I don’t feel that sitting next to somebody who is feeling resentment is harmful; I’m sure I’ve done it frequently without even knowing. And I do see this as policing–you don’t just have to do something you don’t want to do, you should feel a certain way about it.

        5. That’s just a large gulf, then, as you say. Because I don’t feel that sitting next to somebody who is feeling resentment is harmful; I’m sure I’ve done it frequently without even knowing. And I do see this as policing–you don’t just have to do something you don’t want to do, you should feel a certain way about it.

          I don’t think it’s harmful either, but it can certainly ruin the enjoyment for others.

          There’s not a whole lot of difference than I can see between letting resentment go and hiding it from others. The resentful people you sat near weren’t proclaiming their resentment via words or behaviors so you didn’t pick up on it. Why would they do that, if not to make sure they didn’t ruin other people’s fun? Do you let everyone around know you’re bored? If not, why don’t you?

          I’ve sat near people who were resentful and didn’t hide it as well as they thought, or bother to hide it at all. Recent example- I’m trying to hear and see my kid get her diploma while the bored guy in front of me is fidgeting around, sighing loudly and complaining periodically about how graduation is too long and he should be able to leave once his kid was done. To me that was just flat out rude. And we were prevented from leaving early because while he’s standing up and walking across a bleacher full of people, others are missing seeing their kid get handed a diploma. Because his bored ass was in the way. And you know what? I was bored too. But there wasn’t one single thing I could have done about it, so really no point in resenting it. It was what it was.

        6. There’s not a whole lot of difference than I can see between letting resentment go and hiding it from others.

          The difference is in having the feeling without feeling like one has to dismiss it or suppress it. That may not be a big difference to you, but it is to me.

          Not all those things fall under that category for everyone.

          Indeed. But since we’ve been talking about my parents dragging me to boring things and the resentment I consequently felt, it’s the category they fall under for me that’s relevant.

          If you don’t leave a dinner party because to do so would be rude and hurt somebody’s feelings, then, in fact, you are in control and have made a decision. You have decided that what you get out of staying–making somebody else feel good–is worth putting up with the boring dinner party for. If you don’t leave a boring meeting at work, it’s because you have decided that the paycheck and the good relations with your coworkers are worth putting up with the boredom for. That was rarely a decision available to me as a child.

          And yet, you were drug to boring things on occasion.

          I guess you’ll attribute my well-adjustedness, insofar as it exists, to that if you like, but given that most of the time I had a book (which is why that damn Whitman reading stands out–too dark to read), I suspect you’re mistaken.

        7. The difference is in having the feeling without feeling like one has to dismiss it or suppress it. That may not be a big difference to you, but it is to me.

          Suppressing it is hiding it. This is done for the benefit of those around you.

          Dismissing it is done for your own benefit. Stewing in resentment isn’t going to change the situation, and all it does is make you feel pissed off and bitter about something you have no control over. If you have no control over the situation, at least you can have control over how you feel about it and can choose to make it easier on yourself. That’s what you want, right? Some form of control and less unpleasantness? Boredom is unpleasant, so I’ll stew in it resentfully…boy, that’ll show em!

          I guess you’ll attribute my well-adjustedness, insofar as it exists, to that if you like, but given that most of the time I had a book (which is why that damn Whitman reading stands out–too dark to read), I suspect you’re mistaken.

          What I attribute it to is that at some point, you absorbed how to be polite (or maybe not. For all I know you DO make sure everyone within 10 miles knows just how boring you find something and seethe resentfully) and behave civilly in situations that are boring. Or else you’re just one of those special snowflakes who didn’t require being taught those types of things and were just infused with that ability at birth. You just automatically knew how to behave. How wonderful for you, but the rest of us typically had to be taught manners.

        8. That was rarely a decision available to me as a child.

          A decision that was available to you as a child was how to behave though. You could have thrown a fit if you wanted to. Sure, it would come with consequences, but so does leaving a boring party as an adult- people will think you’re rude as hell. And may stop inviting you to anything, boring or fun.

          And culturally, how I grew up was that it’s rude as all hell to get up and leave a dinner party or adult function. I also wasn’t allowed to sit in the corner reading, depending on the situation. I was capable of sitting quietly, so it was expected. This left me with the ability to sit quietly as adult without the need to be rude and leave. My boredom doesn’t override my manners and consideration of others. Being bored never hurt anyone. Being rude often does.

        9. Suppressing it is hiding it. This is done for the benefit of those around you.

          Dismissing it is done for your own benefit.

          For the first, you’re right. It was a slip of the fingers; I meant to type “repress.”

          For the second, I understand that this is how it feels to you. You’ve made that clear. But that is not my experience of resentment at all. I’m fine sitting with it. I don’t know what you mean by “show ’em.” I don’t have emotions in order to show other people anything. Feel free to dismiss your own resentment any time you wish, of course. But your happiness with that choice does not make it the objectively best thing to do for me.

          at some point, you absorbed how to be polite

          I read books about manners. That’s how I did it.

          A decision that was available to you as a child was how to behave though. You could have thrown a fit if you wanted to. Sure, it would come with consequences, but so does leaving a boring party as an adult- people will think you’re rude as hell.

          Indeed I did have control over how I behaved. But I didn’t have control over when I left. Hence the resentment that I no longer have to have as often. Now that I have that control, I can decide not to leave rather than have it inflicted upon me, and to me, that makes all the difference. To you, obviously not.

          As to rudeness, it is rude to expect somebody to sit quietly doing nothing while you have a good time. What was going to happen if I read a book? They would stop inviting me to grown-up parties? OK.

        10. I read books about manners. That’s how I did it.

          Evidently none of them addressed how rude it is to leave a dinner party or certain function because you got bored.

          As to rudeness, it is rude to expect somebody to sit quietly doing nothing while you have a good time. What was going to happen if I read a book? They would stop inviting me to grown-up parties? OK.

          Do you even know why they had you not read while at certain events? They allowed it the majority of the time, which doesn’t lead me to believe they were just arbitrarily trying to ruin your good time, or out to deprive you of fun.

          And no, it’s not rude to expect your child to sit quietly while you have adult conversation with other adults. Seems they knew you were capable of doing so, and only expected it of you infrequently. You existed in their world too, not just the other way around, all the time. You saw no good reason for it when you were a kid, but as a kid you have no way of knowing what their reasons were unless they told you, and even then it may have merely been a generic explanation parents often give kids just so they don’t get bogged down in an argument.

        11. Evidently none of them addressed how rude it is to leave a dinner party or certain function because you got bored.

          It’s true; I delight in leaving dinner parties left, right, and center, with an airy “Can’t stay, you’re too boring” tossed over my shoulder as I sail out the door. Hence I am alone and forlorn, friendless and solitary, tossed among life’s trials without any support, all thanks to my inability to understand etiquette to the extent and in the way that you do. Alas, alas.

          Do you even grasp the distinction between leaving and knowing that I could leave if I decided to?

          You saw no good reason for it when you were a kid, but as a kid you have no way of knowing what their reasons were unless they told you, and even then it may have merely been a generic explanation parents often give kids just so they don’t get bogged down in an argument.

          Have it your own way. My parents had secret, adult, ineffable, complex reasons of their own, reasons that I was not meant to wot of, for their more annoying decisions. It couldn’t be that they are just regular flawed human beings who sometimes did arbitrary things out of tiredness or irritation or because they didn’t think it through clearly or something like that.

          You know them so much better than I do, after all.

    2. The ones who let their kids use the sugar caddy as a toy and open all of the packets of sugar and sweetener all over the table? I hated them.

      This reminds me of an incident when I was about six or so. My family and another family with kids went to a movie and then an ice cream parlor. There were a total of four kids, ages six through ten or so. I started playing with the sugar. I didn’t open any of the packets or anything — the sugar packets had pictures of ships on them, and there were four different ship pictures, and the sugar caddy had four sections, so I was sorting them by picture. My parents saw what I was doing and figured it was fine — I was being quiet, I wasn’t bothering anyone, and they planned to tell me to clean up if I still had packets unsorted by the time we were done eating. Anyway, a waiter came by, saw what I was doing, gasped, and dropped the tray that he was carrying, sending glass bowls of ice cream shattering all over the place. Then he told my parents that the ice cream and broken glass mess was entirely my fault. I have no idea how this man managed to work for any length of time at an ice cream parlor, where I’m sure there were plenty of kids doing plenty of worse things than sorting sugar packets.

  14. I’ve had to use a wheelchair to move around in recently due to an injury and I have babysat several young children (not a mother, but I would use a stroller to take them to public places in D.C.) and I can say with complete conviction that using a wheelchair is much more difficult than a stroller in all cases.

    In fact, the comparison makes bile rise up in my mouth. Please stop. Just. stop.

    When I was using a stroller and had little children to care for there would be looks, sneers, some comments- but also I could bump the stroller up on the side walk. I could just drag the thing up the stairs. If need be I could could pick the child up, leave the stroller (hoping it wasn’t stolen of course) and carry them into wherever we needed to be. Such as a bathroom stall or a restaurant.

    In a wheelchair I can not get over curbs. I can not just drag myself up stairs (can’t walk, duh). I -MUST- use special bathrooms so I can use the handles to hop myself onto the pot. The looks I get, the stares, the questions from strangers- it’s not the same as the glares a caretaker with small children get.

    One time I had the audacity to be rolling down a sidewalk and a double wide stroller is coming towards me. We stop. The parents look at ME like I have to move. Their darlings were sleeping. I put on my parking break and folded my arms. They can pop that stroller up and down the curb, I can’t. Finally after much staring they decided to push the stroller down into the street so I could pass.

    I love children, I can’t wait to have my own. But please stop comparing living in a wheelchair to using a stroller. It’s disgusting and inaccurate. One is a medical device to aid with mobility and the other is a helpful aid for childminding. Please see the difference.

    1. I only used the wheelchair analogy to counter the assertion that strollers are just too big for taking anywhere, ever. I definitely didn’t mean to belittle or minimize the challenges of someone in a wheelchair.

      If a restaurateur is going to get all shades of defensive about having to accomodate a stroller getting through they are being an ass for no other reason than if they won’t accomodate a stroller they won’t accomodate a wheelchair either. I agree wholeheartedly that not accomodating a wheelchair is a millionty times worse than a stroller.

      1. That is the main point. We are all in favor, I hope, of restaurants and stores being able to accommodate people in wheelchairs, right? Such accommodations would also make it easy for people with strollers. Why is the first absolutely good and the second absolutely unthinkable?

        As blue milk said, dependence is not an aberration. Lots of people use strollers at different points. Why is it so unreasonable to expect our infrastructure to take that into account?

      2. Short note – spazz is short for spastic, which is an unkind and derogatory term for people with epilepsy. It would be good to avoid that word because of its ableism.

    2. Solidarity fist-bump for you. I wish I’d seen this before I posted upthread, we seem to have made the same points.

      Not all wheeled conveyances are created equally. A plastic pushchair with manoeuvrable wheels, containing a baby, just isn’t comparable with a metal wheelchair that’s self-propelled, and occupied and controlled solely by a grown human. Also, nobody would dare to grab someone’s stroller/pushchair from their hands, drag it off somewhere out of their way, and then get huffy over being called on it.

      1. Also, nobody would dare to grab someone’s stroller/pushchair from their hands, drag it off somewhere out of their way, and then get huffy over being called on it.

        I think you’re wrong about this.

        1. I had to travel solo with baby by airplane a few months ago (and yes, I did buy a separate seat for my 8mo.) When it was time to board, the flight staff at LGA insisted that I had to bag and then drag my stroller about 100 feet through the long line of fellow passengers that snaked its way across the waiting area, while also carrying my baby in a carseat and my diaper bag (no leaving the carseat into the stroller and waiting unti I got to the jetway to bag the stroller allowed!)

          I got tons of nasty looks from people with the, oh, no a baby on my flight looks for extra funtimes. Finally, a nice gentleman offered to carry the stroller for me to the door, and I swear it took everything I had not to throw my arms around him in relief and gratitude.

          Btw, the baby slept through the whole flight, and I didn’t resent one bit having someone offer to help me out.

        2. Right, let me get this straight –

          you are claiming that people often march up to other people who are pushing babies in strollers, wrench said stroller (and therefore the baby out of the person’s hand, and drag it off in the opposite direction?

          Then when called on it, they get defensive and start shouting that strollers should not be allowed in public?

          Yeah, that’s bollocks. Unless you live in the Thunderdome, or with the Futurekind, I don’t know a place on Earth in 2012, where someone can stroll on up, grab a baby in it’s stroller out of it’s mother’s* hand, and take off with it against the mother’s wishes, while bystanders look on idly.

          I think it sounds like something spun by someone called out on “Because WHEELCHAIRS!”, who’s desperate to defend that stance. Either that, or some sort of apocalyptic turn of events has happened outside while I’ve been sick, and there’s a combined Children of Men/Strain thing going on.

          I hope not. I have plans.

          *or fathers/guardians/grandparents/armed police/whoever

        3. You didn’t specify “with the baby in it,” so I didn’t default to that. Otherwise, yes, people do take strollers out of the way without waiting to see if you have everything you need out of it.

        4. The point isn’t, by the way, “but wheelchairs!” The point is that the infrastructure changes that increase accessibility for people in wheelchairs are in several instances the same ones (elevators in the subways, wider doors and aisles) that would make public life easier for mothers pushing strollers. So why are these changes so necessary in the one case, but so unreasonable to expect in the other? How can the same changes be important and unnecessary at the same time? If accessibility is improved for people in wheelchairs, many accessibility issues for women maneuvering strollers will go away as well.

          Further, just as people in wheelchairs are a normal and foreseeable part of society and should be treated as such, parents pushing strollers are a normal and foreseeable part of society. Almost nobody pushes a stroller all his/her life, but a fairly consistent percentage of the population will always be pushing a stroller. Why build a society that doesn’t accept that? Whom does that society benefit?

        5. Lolagirl – nice man, but what’s he got to do with EG’s challenge to my claim that people don’t grab strollers containing babies out of their mothers’ hands, and storm off with them?

          I’m going to make this perfectly clear to both of you – wheelchair+user =/= stroller+baby.

          I’m sure it was one of you two who said you’d be interested in hearing from someone experienced with both. And yet, crickets.

          Chair users are frequently grabbed from behind, dragged off, while shouting and protesting about it. Onlookers ignore it.

          Chair users on public transport are used as shopping rests, leaning posts, and on not one, but throe separate occasions, I’ve had children , strange children, dumped onto my lap. Onlookers ignored it, and on one occasion, when I screamed in pain someone said “Oh really now, it’s not like they can even feel their legs anyway!”

          Friends have been tipped out of their chairs by people who resented them taking up space in pubs or on trains. Parents will watch blankly as their children kick the living hell out of chairs and their occupants.

          I learned long ago to not move, shift my weight, or rearrange my legs while travelling. Why? Shouts of “FAKE!” or “SCROUNGER!”. A friend travelling on a bus was spat on and called a drunk (because of her dystonia) by someone who wanted the wheelchair space for their pushchair.

          I never experienced anything like that while pushing a baby or a toddler. Nobody kicked her, sat on her, tipped her out, screamed at her, or demanded that she prove her right to sit in her pushchair. Nobody ever repeatedly rammed a metal trolley/shopping cart into her, rather than simply asking if I’d move her. I doubt they’d have called her a “crippled c*nt” for daring to say “Use your words, my ears work fine”.

          Wheelchairs and strollers are not the same, not comparable to each other, not interchangeable.

          Disabled adults are infantilised enough as it is, without being used as a handy-dandy stand-in to prove a point. The ADA and the DDA/EA, weak as they are, are not back-ups to arguments about huge strollers blocking access.

          I’m sick of it, sick of hearing (generally, not especially from here) that babies and their wheels trump me and mine. I’m sick of AB parents using chair users as trump cards when people complain about strollers blocking aisles, retorting “What about disabled people then, huh? Do you hate them too?”.

          We’re not babies, trump cards, furniture, animals, or con artists. We feel every look, hear every mutter, and it burns. We’re often truly locked out of certain life events that are in inaccessible locations. We can’t be carried onto a plane, or up stairs. We can’t sit in a high chair, or ride in the trolley/shopping cart. If we’re in a chair, we probably have no other option.

          It’s especially difficult if you could walk and now you can’t. Wheelchairs look so easy to use, so smooth, but they aren’t for ages. Fluid movement takes practice, as does getting used to being much wider. Dragging your own body weight everywhere is exhausting. So add that, the pain, often shame too, to all the abuse, assumptions and baggage of daring to live while disabled, among the public, and I’m sure you can see why we get so angry sometimes.

        6. I also apologized to Victoria as soon as she posted and tried to clarify accordingly.

          I misunderstood the comment about someone dragging away a stroller. Thank you for clarifying further so that I now understand much better.

          I’m not trying to have an argument that those in wheelchairs don’t get treated poorly in our society, and I have never expressed any sort of expecation that anyone with a stroller and/or a child should get preferential anything over someone in a wheelchair. I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote. Furthermore, I agree with you that the things you described wrt how people have treated you are terrible and unforgiveable.

        7. Context is a beautiful thing EG:

          Not all wheeled conveyances are created equally. A plastic pushchair with manoeuvrable wheels, containing a baby, just isn’t comparable with a metal wheelchair that’s self-propelled, and occupied and controlled solely by a grown human. Also, nobody would dare to grab someone’s stroller/pushchair from their hands, drag it off somewhere out of their way, and then get huffy over being called on it.

          I was responding to a commenter who was talking about it being easier to bump a baby in a stroller up and down a kerb, in comparison to a wheelchair.

          I then pointed out that a few kilos of plastic+baby, with special manoeuvrable wheels, is far easier to move/control than 20+ kilns of metal, plus a person, on wheels made for distance, not steerability. So I shouldn’t have had to keep pushing the point about the conveyances being occupied.

          Also, I have nothing against pushchairs, babies, or mothers. It’s not like having impaired mobility cancels out past, present, or future childcare.

          What I object to is the demand that everywhere be stroller-friendly, it’s impossible. I object to babies and PWD being treated as interchangeable entities. Like I’ve said over, and over, and over again – having to push a baby around is temporary, usually as a result of a choice made to have one in the first place, and usually there are options if something is proving difficult.

          I’m only in my thirties, and I remember that there were no pushchair ramps, kneeling buses, unfolded pushchairs on public transport or in restaurants or shops. I remember how frustrated my mother got, having to wrangle a folded pushchair, the shopping, the baby, and me (two years older than him) on and off buses. Every day.

          Now someone can leave the house with baby in her stroller, get on the bus, go shopping and for lunch, then get the bus back home, all without the baby leaving her seat. What I take umbrage at is being on the bus, in the wheelchair priority area, and then being screamed at and scowled at, and asked “Couldn’t you get off and get the next bus? It’s not like you have to walk anywhere”, because the driver has told them they’ll have to stow the pushchair and sit holding their kid. I’m sick of DDA accommodations being taken for granted by a section of stroller society, who then get fifteen types of pissed off when a chair user needs to use said accommodations.

          Life should be easier for everyone, but pitting parents against PWD is pathetic. There are strollers that are light, small, super easy to steer, and can be taken almost anywhere. SUV strollers are always going to be more difficult to use. I’ve got a large wheelchair with a 20″ seat and 30″ wheels. I am tall, I have very long legs (so my seat is high). and I am fat. Yet I am often eclipsed by a six month old in what looks like a Sherman tank. Of course something that wide and bulky will cause access problems, so why choose it? Why does one little baby need a pushchair that I could sit in? How many of these issues over stroller access could be mediated by downsizing, by using an umbrella stroller for babies old enough? £20 for the last one I bought, branded too, brand new, adorable print.

          And again, if absolutely necessary, babies can usually be carried onto planes, across a restaurant, etc. Babies aren’t going to these places alone, like I often am. I’ve just had to accept that my life is different now, that I can’t do anything I want without considering access, toilet facilities, transport, availability of a changing area, and at least a 50% chance of being treated like a human.

          Kids do that, they change your life. I couldn’t take her to certain places (noise, smoke etc), or attend certain formal events. She wasn’t even mine, it was an emergency that led to me having her for so long, but I still had to grit my teeth and get on with it.

          In a fair world the floors would be smooth, flat, and wide. There would be lifts/elevators everywhere, shallow ramps, accessible toilets with changing facilities (for babies and not.
          babies), with modifications for those of us with sensory disabilities and cognitive disabilities. It would be great if everything was height adjustable for people with restricted growth or chair users. Access anywhere for assistance dogs, with facilities for them so they can work in comfort. Modifications to help dystonic people, or those with Parkinsonism. Adjustments to help people with missing limbs, or who have dysphagia, or who are prone to seizures.

          That would help a staggering number of people. People who need those accommodations for the rest of their lives. It’ll never, ever happen though.

        8. Right, Partial Human. I understand all that. What I don’t understand is why I’m being accused of cricketing when I demonstrably wasn’t silent. An apology can be not good enough, not accepted, etc. But that doesn’t make it not there, either.

    3. You’re right, people with strollers can get two people and lug the thing up and downstairs, but heck, if there were just more elevators, I believe *everyone* would be happier–the old people, the wheelchair people, people with strollers, me when I have heels on and I’m drunk at 2am……

      1. people with strollers can get two people

        Way easier said than done, of course. I can count the number of people besides myself I’ve seen in the past year offer to help someone with a stroller on one hand.

        1. Maybe we spend time on different subway lines. Because with respect to negotiating subway stairs, I see people offer to help lug strollers up or down quite frequently — certainly the majority of the time that someone’s having trouble. I always do, and other women do. And other parents, men and women alike, with older kids. As noted above, big strong white guys in suits not so much.

        2. That’s comforting to know! I feel like the only time I see a woman who isn’t struggling on her own is when her partner is with her.

    4. Although I will say that having to drag a double stroller around made me about a thousand times more aware of accessibility issues – not because a stroller is anywhere near the difficulty of being in a wheelchair, but because every time I ran into a steep curb cut or a set of steps, I’d think “You know, this is a pain in the ass, but at least I am able-bodied and can pick up the stroller and drag it. Imagine if I couldn’t do that.”

  15. I dunno, Jill, I think your reading of the article you excerpted is pretty ungenerous. Your critique of her argument that children ought not be treated “specially,” but rather that the idea of what normal behavior is ought to be revised to include normal childhood behavior, doesn’t make much sense from my perspective. It seems more like a semantics debate than a legitimate critique to argue that children are treated specially. Well, of course children are treated differently than adults are, because they’re different. But a child crying on an airplane is normal behavior for a child, and children need to fly just as much as adults do – so our expectation of normal behavior on a plane needs to be revised to include children crying if they’re so young they don’t understand the pain in their ears, or if they’re so young they physically cannot sit still for more than an hour or two.

    I admit, there are times I find children behaving more or less normally supremely irritating. The last flight I was on, a mother took her two toddlers for a walk up and down the aisle, and bounced into the flight attendants a few times. But guess what? The mother (who from her dress I suspect was part of a conservative religious sect) had four young children under the age of six to manage, and her husband was just reading the newspaper; it was a six hour flight from BWI to LAX, and after a certain point kids just need to stretch their legs. Yes, it’s inconvenient – but it’s part of sharing space.

    In general, I so rarely encounter “self-absorbed” and inconsiderate parents that it wouldn’t even occur to me to write an article about how selfish parents can be. I don’t live in a city, but I do live on a block with three (three!) elementary schools, and my morning commute is made very difficult by the traffic and the kids crossing the road. Sometimes I get really frustrated when I’m made late for school or other appointment because people are clogging up the culdesac I live in. But jeeze, these parents are just trying as best they can to get their kids to school safely and in one piece. The neighborhood I live in can be a bit sketchy, and I’m glad the parents are able to take the time to escort their young kids to school safely.

    On the other hand, I regularly encounter self-absorbed people who don’t have kids with them, like the guy in the sports car who laid on the horn behind me while I was biking up a hill going home, or the dudes on the bus who take up all the space, or travellers who lean back in their seats on the plane so I have no space to move at all.

    But in general – I think people mostly do the best they can. I would say there are more small acts of generosity and consideration in my average week than there are acts of rudeness and meanness. People who let me go first in line at the store when I have two items and they have twenty, people who wave me on ahead at a four way stop, people who compliment my dog, people who lend me a quarter when I’m short bus fare – I think people are generally pretty decent, and parents aren’t all that different.

    1. The self-absorbed parents I see are often at two ends of the spectrum:

      Those who are incredibly neglectful and seem to think their children are not their job. The people who’s kids run screaming through the isles and throwing and biting, the kids who hit strangers and steal things and their parents don’t even seem to register this isn’t okay.

      The other is the hovering parents who spoil their children rotten and encourage their kids to scream and act horrible and reward them for it.

      Now, this isn’t a behavior that starts because you have a kid, it’s a personality type that existed *before* the kid and is manifesting itself in relation to a child.

    2. Thank you for this! I am always reading about how terrible/rude/selfish people are, and it is so refreshing to come across the opposite for once. It’s a good reminder for me that my experience is similar, and that I rarely come across parents who enjoy their kids’ tantrums, or who let them run riot. Or, for that matter, child-hating monsters who glare at me when they yell or struggle to sit still.

      Most people where I live smile and are helpful when I am out with my children, and almost all parents are clearly trying their best to manage their children’s behaviour. I actually think that having your children misbehave in public is a pretty good humbling experience; it reminds you not to be too judgmental when you see others behaving in a way you might otherwise condemn.

      And I think the point that ‘normal human behaviour’ should include normal kid behaviour is central here. Adults are in control of their lives, so are held responsible for their choices; kids are still learning all of this. Saying that kids cannot always behave in ways that are acceptable for adults’ behaviour is not the same as saying they can do whatever they like. The rhetoric in these kinds of discussions often conflates the two.

      Presumably as feminists we want women’s presence in public spaces to be completely normalized. At the moment, while women still do the lion’s share of childcare, this means normalizing the presence of children too, and the ways that they exist that is different from adults. And for myself, I would like to see children’s presence normalized in their own right too.

    3. But in general – I think people mostly do the best they can.

      Thank you for this. It’s a mindset I try to cultivate myself, and I really, really wish more people would extend this mindset to the parents they encounter in public.

      I also wonder how much of this is region-specific. I live in a small city in the American South, and most people around here seem to be fine with kids in public. And most parents seem to do their best to keep their kids in line. It may be that I’m just looking for the good, or it may be that there’s a difference in major metropolitan areas like NYC.

  16. In the last two shifts at my job (clothing store) I have had: Girl old enough to know better climb on a ladder while her dad stood and watched (I had to tell her to get down), girl hanging out with dad being cute and doing nothing wrong but having a really loud toy that played music over and over, little boy walking behind his mother, blowing melted ice cream through his DQ Blizzard straw all over the floor, which I don’t think the mom noticed at all and which I mopped up, and two little boys who did the following while I tried to ring up their mother’s purchase: Repeatedly come behind the counter and play with the register next to me, make a break for the door, knock a bunch of gift cards onto the floor, try to crawl off the counter when their poor mom put them their to try to keep them controlled, all while laughing because it was oh so amusing to them. Their mom tried her damnedest to keep them wrangled, which I appreciated. I see a lot of this stuff (though this has been an extra spectacular week) and this kind of behavior is usually the result of parents not paying attention or not caring, or just trying really hard but being outnumbered. When I see a parent trying hard to curb bad behavior, I appreciate that and I sympathize with their struggle. But if they’re going to ignore shitty behavior or just not even pay attention to what their kids are doing, they are rude jerks. Rude jerks are rude jerks, parents or no. Rude jerks are also people who get mad at the very PRESENCE of children. Those people suck too! Rude. Jerks.

  17. OK, so beat me up, I’m childless – only have nephews who have not been taken to a restaurant yet (other than child centric ones) because they are both under 5 years and their parents don’t want to take them until they know basic manners. I really think too many parents do not feel this way.

    Most Parents really do seem to have a different standard now from when I was a child, lets just take going out to eat; I/siblings were not taken to a restaurant until we had learned table manners at home first, the same manners needed in a restaurant. That included using a napkin in the lap, asking to be excused when done, etc. We were expected to remain at the table until dinner was over, we did not have entertainment beyond the conversation between us. Our parents did not ignore us or allow us to run around a restaurant at all (nor at home). We were told in no uncertain terms that if we could not behave we would not be allowed to go to the next dinner out. As to infants in restaurants, my mother told me that she could not take me out because I was “fussy”, she was able to take my little sister out because she was quiet.

    So yes, I think parents feel entitled to do whatever they always have done before they had kids and they expect everyone else to deal with the issues their children introduce no matter how egregious their children’s behavior (maintaining kid innocence here).

    I happen to like kids and I totally enjoy interacting with stranger kids in a restaurant, a store or anywhere I meet them. I do get the “it takes a village” point to heart even though many parents I meet in passing tend to regard me suspiciously if I’m nice to their kids. Problem seems to me to be; parents don’t socialize their children to a certain point before putting them in certain situations, then the use the rationale that the kids need to be in the situation to learn social skills, this gets all f’d up when the same parents get up in a strangers grill when they ask if the child is OK, or try to help, I’ve been given hell for distracting a child from a tantrum! and god forbid I gently reprimand a child for hitting someone, or whatever other social mistake they’ve made. Do that last and you are pariah in the “village”.

    1. That included using a napkin in the lap, asking to be excused when done, etc. We were expected to remain at the table until dinner was over, we did not have entertainment beyond the conversation between us.

      napkin in the lap? what kind of restraunts do you go to

      i dont want kids to act like posh spazzes. just so long as they arent like screaming and shit and running around like theyhr on speed

      1. napkin in the lap? what kind of restraunts do you go to

        I put my napkin on my lap at Ihop, McDonalds and the fancy places equally. I was taught this was basic table manners. Same as not putting one’s elbows on the table. Basic manners don’t change because the place isn’t “expensive”. Just because “poor” people are around doesn’t mean you get to forgo them.

        1. I think this is cultural. I was never taught to put a napkin in the lap before eating. We did not have cloth napkins at our house. Also never learned about elbows on the table. However, I was able to pick up these little tidbits by watching non-immigrants to see what they did.

        2. Just because “poor” people are around doesn’t mean you get to forgo them.

          no, because these rules are arbitrary and silly you get forgo them. no elbows on the table? please you sound like my gran and not the cool one. the only use for these kinds of rules is so people that know the rules can look down on people that dont. there’s no practical reason for them

      2. The comment upthread that was SUPPOSED to be here, heh.

        Spazz is short for spastic, a derogatory and unkind word for people with epilepsy. It would be good to avoid using it because of its ableism.

      3. spazzes

        Don’t, please. That’s disgustingly ableist and you know it. You’re not American, you don’t get to claim it means ‘hyper’ or ‘clumsy’.

        TRIGGER WARNING – ableist language, descriptions of hate crimes against disabled people, suicide, murder.

        Americans – here in the UK “spastic” was a term used for people with cerebral palsy. It became, and still is, a term of abuse for anyone with a disability. Spastic/spaz/spacka is one of the most common shouted insults during disability-related hate crimes. One woman was called that, through laughter, as she lay in the street dying. Her tormentors urinated and spat on her.

        A woman killed herself and her disabled daughter after years of hearing that word (and others) screamed through her letterbox at night, or as people hurled bricks through the window.

        As with other insulting terms like “gay” as “stupid”, “spaz/spastic” is used freely, by ableists, usually with the requisite twisted face, to indicate that something is bad, or wrong, or that someone is stupid. Because, y’know, disabled people are all stupid too.

        Only someone who’d never read a book or newspaper, watched tv or listened to the radio, could not know what that disgusting word represents here, especially in a. time where hate crimes against disabled people are at terrifyiwg new highs.

        See also: retarded, mong, scoper. The latter because the “Spastic’s Society” charity changed it’s name to ‘Scope’, after “spastic” became a weapon. So now, “spastics” (to the ableist, anyone deemmd stupid or defective) can also be called “scopers”

        So cheers Chiara, for using it in a thread where people with disabilities have already been subjected to being compared to children..

        1. sorry your right that was bang out. i just thought that if you put the word with ‘posh’ then it looses that bad effect.

      4. Please don’t use the word “spaz” as a pejorative. It is short for spastic, which used to be a medical term referring to people with cerebral palsy.

      5. no, because these rules are arbitrary and silly you get forgo them. no elbows on the table? please you sound like my gran and not the cool one. the only use for these kinds of rules is so people that know the rules can look down on people that dont. there’s no practical reason for them

        No elbows on the tables means less chance of knocking things off, or into other people’s laps, or blocking their view to other people at the table.
        The world is not your living room. Basic rules of etiquette exist so that people can occupy public space smoothly. Table manners are about being considerate of other people. Something you obviously have no interest in. I’d say you sound like my 2 year old, but she had better manners than you.

        1. The world is not your living room. Basic rules of etiquette exist so that people can occupy public space smoothly. Table manners are about being considerate of other people. Something you obviously have no interest in. I’d say you sound like my 2 year old, but she had better manners than you.

          BS. your not concerned about being considerate of other people. your just concerned with fulfilling silly social rules in some vain attempt to imitate the upper classes. seriously, having some kind of enforcing your elitist dinner party rules on people and making them feel bad is the opposite of being considerate.

      6. Americans – here in the UK “spastic” was a term used for people with cerebral palsy.

        I’m American and I’ve been aware of this since the 80’s when it became popular slang. The term came about exactly the same way “retarded” did (as in- I left my phone at home, I’m such a retard) so don’t take someone being an American as a pass for that. It does mean hyper or clumsy, but it’s hyper or clumsy like a disabled person. It’s not nice, and has never been nice. So no, being an American is no excuse to use the word either. Especially on this site.

      7. I actually had this discussion with my nephew when he stayed with us for the weekend. No elbows on the table is because if you turn suddenly, your elbow is going to knock your plate into my lap, and that’s not cool. The napkin in the lap is just in case you drop food in your lap; once you’re an adult, it’s less of an issue, but as long as I’m the one who has to wash your pants you’re damn well going to keep food off of them as much as you can. Not talking with your mouth full means your dining companions don’t have to stare at and be sprayed by a mouthful of half-chewed food.

        Many rules of etiquette really are just classist shibboleths, but a lot of them are based on logic. Being an adult means being considerate of other people, even if sometimes you don’t understand why. For instance: spazz. Ableist. Disrespectful, rather like you, which is why you’re banned.

        1. I’ve personally only heard that word used to make fun of people who are visibly intoxicated. I never knew that it was used as an insult towards PWD. Do people really get banned here now for using one wrong word, a la Shakesville? Or was Chiara banned for some other asinine post that I missed?

    2. Meh, parents have always varied. I was allowed to read at the table and I never had to ask to be excused. The idea that Kids Today are just worse-behaved than kids of yore has been being thrown around since Ancient Rome, at least.

        1. [The 4th-C. sophist Libanius] described the unmannerly behaviour of his pupils during a solemn lecture, a presentation to which a wider audience was admitted. He had ordered a slave to call the students in. They hardly budged, continuing to chat, laugh and sing the top hits of the day. Finally, they condescended to enter the hall, yet their lackadaisical attitude roused the ire of those already present and made them resentful. Finally the lecture could begin. The students, however, were winking at one another, were talking about this, that and the other, about charioteers, mimes, horses, pantomimes, and fights among students. Some students lolled about like statues, arms folded, while others picked their noses with both hands at once, remained utterly unmoved while everyone applauded, forced enthusiastic members of the audience to fit down. Their behaviour could be even more disgraceful: they clapped at unsuitable moments, prevented others from applauding, strutted ostentatiously through the lecture-theatre and tried to lure as many people as possible out of the hall by concocting false messages or by spreading round invitations to the baths.

          This is the most awesome thing ever. I love imagining this.

  18. My kids are what you might charitably call “spirited” – they are willful, headstrong, stubborn, and smart. They understand the social dynamics of these situations (going to a restaurant or a store) perfectly well, just as they know how to push my buttons and those of Ms. A. Perfect little monsters, or human beings if you will.

    But little kids are not adults. They get tired and cranky more easily. They don’t really have the same sense of time that adults have developed – 15 minutes between ordering food and being served can seem like eternity to a 4 year old. Without a firm sense of what is going on, new experiences can lead to anxiety. Some children learn how to deal with anxiety pretty early on. Others…don’t. Coping is a learned behavior, much like reading. Some kids are quick, others…not. Some kids are dyslexic and get their letters mixed up. Some kids get their behaviors and emotions mixed up too. Why? Is it bad parenting? (Ugh…the guilt and shame of it all!) Or is it cognitive, something having to do with brain development? The only way I can live with myself is if it’s at least partially the latter.

    Anyhow, when things got dicey with our boys in restaurants, when they couldn’t sit still or got loud or wouldn’t listen or wouldn’t calm down, we just settled up and left. Management is always happy to facilitate an exit! Once, we (well, I) had to go back and pick up the food we had ordered. I can tell you that it is highly embarrassing to escort a child in mid-tantrum out of a public place, but we always figured that it was better than letting the behavior persist. After years of this and many, many totally humiliating failures, our guys can finally go to a restaurant and enjoy the experience, and so can we.

    I could apologize for all of this. I’m sure that people have been disturbed by my kids’ behavior and really really sure that people have disapproved of the way we have chosen to handle certain situations. But the way I see it, you can’t teach a kid how to behave in public without going into public places. You can’t teach kindness, respect for others, and consideration in the abstract.

    1. My issue isn’t kids having some kind of meltdown (I had a ton as a kid) it’s when the parents don’t deal with it, or even encourage it. And there’s sort of a need to acknowledge “my kid is being a pain and I can’t change this, so sorry, but at the same time it happens so deal with it.” Just a kind of eye-contact-shoulder-shrug and I think, “Wow, what a cool parent, keeping it together while their kid screams. That parent is awesome. What a lucky kid.”

    2. While it’s true that you have to take kids in public, it’s not true that you can’t teach them some of the basic rules of behaving in public without actually going into public. We didn’t get to go to a restaurant until we had already learned how to stay in our seats through a meal, keep our voices at an appropriate volume (our “inside voices”), etc. We practiced table manners at home so that when we went out, we already knew how to behave, and it wasn’t all that different from being at home.

      That said, I have no problem with a parent who removes their tantruming or misbehaving kid. I have all kinds of problems with parents who just let their kids scream or run around or throw things because they can’t be bothered or they think it’s cute. I don’t expect kids to act like adults; I expect adults to act like adults.

      1. Well, that suggests that good parenting requires that parents hide away like monsters in a dungeon for a good 5 years, and, given that women are still seen as primary caregivers in this country, yours is an attitude that’s pretty hard on women. Miserable parents make for miserable children, furthermore.

        I just came back from visiting my baby twin nephews, and we took them out for dinner one night in the stroller. Kiddos were quite as mice and positively enraptured watching the world go by. My sense was that it was really intellectually stimulating for them to be out in the world, and I wouldn’t want them deprived of that. And the early 20somethings around us seemed charmed by their presence. We got lots of gushy comments about how cute they were, and all was well. It can happen!

  19. I read your post and remembered Soviet times of my childhood.

    When I was 7 years old my parents and I traveled to the city of Kineshma (small Russian town). There was only one restaurant then. It was noon, the place was almost empty, but we were not let in because “restaurants are not for children”. Had to buy some suspicious cakes on the railway station.

    And most problems in the planes I experienced were with drunken men. I can not say anything to them because they are men and they drink because they have aerophobia and I must respect it.

    I’ve read Janusz Korczak work’s recently. He wrote his own declaration of the rights of children before such document was created by UN. But it seems that for children not much changed in the world. Nils Christie also writes that we move to the ageist getto.

    Sad thing is that if you banish the child – mother has to be banished with him or her too.

    But I can not argue with your post.

    The author of the comment writes:
    – crying on planes
    You write:
    – kicking the seat

    She
    – squeeze my double wide stroller through the door
    You
    – push double-wide strollers into tiny crowded restaurants so that waitstaff and other patrons can’t get by

    She
    – eat in a restaurant and learn to keep their volume down by experimenting.
    You
    – like all other patrons, they stay seated, and not bring an iPad turned up to max volume for entertainment

    So you write about different situations and different parents and children. Then both of you are right.

  20. Janusz Korczak

    I just have to mention what a truly great (in the old-fashioned sense of the word) human being Korczak (the pen name of Henryk Goldszmit) was. Have you seen the Agnieszka Holland/ Andrzej Wajda film, Korczak?

    Trigger warning/content note for extreme tragedy and sadness, involving the death of children in the Holocaust:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Korczak

  21. This seems weird to me because they talk about people with children and people without children like they are 2 totally separate communities. Before I had my own baby I had lots of other children in my life, cousins, siblings, friend’s kids etc, I was more relaxed because I was used to them. But articles like this give the impression that Americans never meet a child until they have their own – if that is really true it is no wonder they don’t know what to do with them!

    Also both sides become OUTRAGED by the smallest inconvenience! I guess it is mostly rhetoric right? Life involves far more annoying hassles than somebody else’s baby/somebody’s disapproval of your baby.

    1. I seem to be the exception among my friends in that I have spent lots of time around babies. Plenty of people I know say they never even held a baby or changed a diaper before having their own kid.

      1. Lol if they’re upset by a baby on the footpath they’re in for a shock when they have their own! 😉

      2. I was working in a clothing-store once when a woman came up to the counter with a big bunch of stuff to buy and a toddler. When I finished putting her order through I said “I’ll give you a hand getting your stuff to the car, cause you won’t have enough hands with keeping him off the road, will you?”
        She looked at me with kind of amazement and said, “Do you have kids?” [I was about 23 and looked it, pretty young to have kids in my town]. I was pretty shocked that such a basic level of consideration was surprising to receive from anyone childless. A pretty depressing indicator of the treatment mothers are used to, I guess.

  22. Great post. My sense is that parents these days are far less ashamed when their children act out. It’s not that parents only began taking their kids to nice restaurants in the last few years, but no longer do parents view it as a personal failing when their children misbehave. There has been a massive cultural shift in this regard.

    1. I almost never comment on Feministe, but I read regularly. I felt I had to say something about this, though. If I am understanding you correctly, you seem to be suggesting that it is a bad thing that parents do not feel like personal failure every time their children misbehave, and that parents feeling more SHAME would be an improvement. If I am understanding you correctly, your position is, at best, astoundingly ungenerous. Many parents are constantly having to work toward the opposite way of thinking – we are trying to take a breath and remind ourselves that a misbehaving child is just an issue to be dealt with, not a personal moral failing. Suggesting that parents should be shamed for their children’s misbehavior is wrong-headed and even cruel.

  23. I have a quick anecdote, that while not entirely in the same vein, I think is probably relevant: Not too long ago, I was working as a cashier in a grocery store. A mother came through my line with five little boys, and they were all loud and spirited, which is normal and fine and all of that. But halfway through the transaction, the eldest boy decided to get behind my register and start touching my things and ME. He ran dozens of things over my scanner multiple times, making it so that I had to void things off repeatedly and inconvenience the people who were waiting in line by taking a long time going over his mother’s transaction and making sure she wasn’t triple or quadruple charged. All while touching pushing me out of the way and grabbing/hitting me. I’m the type of person who avoids confrontation, probably to a fault, but I felt so personally violated that I finally spoke up. I said to his mother, “Could you please make him calm down?”
    She replied, “Sorry, I guess he’s just smart for his age.”
    …Are you fucking kidding me?
    I’m pretty sure these are the types of parents/children Jill was referencing. It’s not difficult – don’t be an asshole.

    1. Something else that I also think gets overlooked, and overly judged, is that the kids people are assuming to be naughty and obnoxious are actually non-neurotypical kids with disabilities. I’ve seen a woman reduced to tears by vocally judgmental patrons in the Target not understanding that she was doing her best to manage her non-verbal autistic son and get him out of the store, and parents at my kids’ school not understand why “that women” ie the parent of an Asperger’s child, insisted on mainstreaming her highly functional kid. One of my own sons has ADHD and SPD, and I’ve heard plenty of nasty and misunderstanding commentary from family, friends, and strangers who refuse to even acknowledge that he has a diagnosed condition that we do our best to manage and treat on a daily basis.

      But it’s always easier to judge and look down at your nose at others, to let that nasty comments come out of your mouth unbidden and without apology, instead of taking a step back and trying to proceed through life with some sympathy and understanding for others.

      1. What a perfect opportunity to start teaching that even if you have Aspergers or are in some other way NNT, you still don’t get to go around touching people without their permission and making them uncomfortable! …..and we’re back to the creeper thread.

        1. No, just no.

          Children with disabilities are never, ever creepers.

          Seriously.

          Of course parents of these children are (pretty much always, have to throw in that caveat here, don’t I?) doing their level best to get their kids SN treated and addressed, and are doing their level best to teach them right from wrong and how to live in the world around them. If you can’t see the difference between a 5 yo or even a 15 yo with a disability from an adult behaving inappropriately then I don’t even know what to say to you.

      2. I actually agree with you, and I was not, “looking down my nose,” at anyone. I understood that this woman had five kids! Even if none of them has a disability, she still has a hell of a lot to deal with every day. I said nothing until it directly violated my bodily autonomy; she did absolutely nothing at any point to make her child cease his behavior. I was referring to the mother as an asshole – at that point, I think that was more than warranted.

      3. Okay. I have to say this.

        My body is not public property.

        I am not ethically demanded to tolerate and act like it’s okay when someone touches me, grabs me, or behaves in a way I find alarming because I later find out, or even realize at the time, that person has cognitive issues. I came to the store to buy groceries, not be someone’s behavioral therapist.

        I get my hackles up when anyone tells me I’m morally obligated to let another person treat me in way I find objectionable because they have some special-ness that excludes them, ie, because I’m a woman and it’s my moral obligation to heal the sick and tend to the needy and give, give, give whether I want to or not because this person

        deserves

        it.

        I don’t care if it’s a child, an adult, someone with mental or cognitive disabilities, someone from a different culture or generation or gender. It’s my duty to make sure I’m not being a dick to you or making your life hard, but I’m in no way required to act like it’s okay if you do those thing to me.

        Especially

        when it’s a stranger. My niece can pull my hair and blow her nose on my sleeve; the random kid at the gas station better not.

        And I say this as someone with giant gallons of compassion, as someone who has worked with special needs populations for years now. And when I go to work, I’m prepared to be touched, grabbed, hit, and pooped on; I’m prepared to educate, have patience, and advocate for my clients to be members of the community. And I don’t take any shit when people act like my clients aren’t okay when they’re just looking at the books or pictures like everyone else, only committing the grave crime of being Clearly Atypical In Public.

        But when I go home and clock out, I’m not doing that anymore. My duty is done. I’m not doing my job for free. I am not Mother Earth.

    2. I mean, yes, I agree. But when EVERY post Jill puts up about parents references the same old tropes? When Feminists has to bring in guest bloggers to say things about parents that aren’t always qualified with “but lots of parents are super annoying, guys!” …things start to look a little biased.

      1. Seriously. This is about the billionth time this same damn conversation has happened, and finally we got blue milk in to point out that having someone depending on you and caretaking are not freakish aberrations.

        And every time we talk about parents, somebody has to bring up Park Slope? It’s getting so I’m starting to feel sorry for Park Slope parents. For God’s sake, Park Slope has been stroller central for almost twenty years. At this point, if you go to a bar or a restaurant in Park Slope, you have to know what you’re getting into, so stop fucking complaining.

        1. I’m also going to cosign this (hope you don’t mind, EG and Chava) because I’m so sick to death of how every conversation about parents and kids on Feministe we go back to square one instead of working from a more enlightened pov.

        2. Let me check with the core commentator cabal, Lola…we’ll get back to you. May be some paperwork, child sacrifice, etc…

          (but yes, I too am getting tired of these conversations never starting from or ending up in a better place)

      2. Yes, that’s it. It’s become very predictable. What about using feminist blogs for useful activism like demanding paid parental leave? Surely someone is fighting for that now?

      3. I am super late to the — well, I was going to say party, but that would suggest that mothers go to parties — anyway, I hope that I am not too late to cosign too.

        Blue milk’s posts are the only ones about parents and children that I can remember on Feministe that didn’t have “This one time I was at a restaurant, and a child did something that bothered me” somewhere in the argument.

        Also, I’m convinced that Park Slope is a mythical place, like Troy or Chelm.

        1. I’ve personally lived less than a ten minute walk from Park Slope, have spent the better part of many a weekend there, and I have never been run over by a stroller. Trufax.

      4. Seriously. It would really be nice to have a post saying “Yeah, most parents aren’t like those ‘Park Slope’ parents, but…” and just have the fucking “but” left out of the damn sentence for once. Because really, it’s tiresome, and it doesn’t feel supportive of parents. We aren’t a monolith, and for those of us who are really struggling and aren’t in positions of privilege, it certainly makes us feel like we don’t have a lot of allies on the ground when there is this sort of vague broad brush painting going on.

  24. You understand why people are hostile toward a crying baby, the same way they would be with an adult who spent the entire plane ride screaming?

    I dunno. I was on a plane recently with an adult nearby who appeared to have Tourette syndrome + a fear of flying, and I was really heartened by how understanding people were of the situation.

    And just a few weeks ago, I was on a commuter train where there was a young guy who was accompanying his extremely ancient and confused granddad somewhere. Granddad looked sweet, but wasn’t particularly docile, and you could see how exhausted the grandson was – and all the effort he was putting into keeping the old man happy and safe.

    When you’re suddenly helpless, or taking care of someone helpless, it’s a real kick in the pants – and suddenly, the perfectly understandable hostility of people who don’t get what you are going through is exposed as mere assholery.

    At the end of the day, I can’t accept hostility toward people like that any more than I understand hostility toward crying babies. Tough shit, you know?

    I reserve my hostility for people who *choose* to behave loudly and obnoxiously in a small space.

    Children need to be exposed to the world of adults — a world that does not always have to be infantilized for their supposed well-being.

    This, on the other hand, is 100% true – and really exposes the issues with many aspects of a so-called kid-friendly culture.

  25. I think what is frustrating and raises hackles in these coversations is that they are never framed as “some people are rude and obnoxious, how annoying” they are framed as a referendum on whether children and parents should be tolerated in certain spaces because some people are rude and obnoxious. I have NEVER seen an article about whether businessmen should be allowed in restaurants because yesterday this business man next to me was talking into his cell phone so loud it totally ruined my lunch. Because individual business men are treated as individuals and not as representatives of their “group”. Only certain people are taken as representative of their “group” and it’s usually becuase the person doing the interpreting sees them as “other” or less than in some way.

    1. Only certain people are taken as representative of their “group” and it’s usually becuase the person doing the interpreting sees them as “other” or less than in some way.

      Gosh, this sounds kind of like how our society often treats women, interesting, isn’t it?

      Somebody else made a similar observation that becoming a parent brought their feminism into focus for them in a new way the other day here, and I really agree. Because women and children (as well as other minorities, of course) are both marginalized in our society in some pretty disgusting ways, and nothing brings that to one’s attention better than experiencing it firsthand.

      And this is why I refuse to sit and agree that kids and parents/mothers suck and why I will demand that we be treated with the minimum level of dignity and respect that men get to take for granted on a daily basis here in the good old U.S. I think we also need to be honest about how it is always the mother of those supposedly horribly behaved kids who get judged and assumed to an overentitled jerk and rarely, if ever, the father who gets such judgment heaped upon him.

      Being a feminist is incompatible with marginalizing women and children.

      1. Its almost always the parent’s rights that people are arguing for though. Never the child’s. Its perfectly okay to indoctrinate children into some ridiculous rituals and society centered around a magical sky daddy complete with threats about hell, sex shaming, unrealistic ideas about child obedience and respect and just generally wasting brain space and time for the child with nonsense, but god forbid we should be annoyed when someone’s baby is wailing for half an hour during our dinner that we have once a year when my sister comes back to town from Boston.

        That’s just the most obvious example being as I’m an atheist but plenty of other ones exist. I don’t really care about strollers because my mom is a hoarder and I learned long ago how to get around large objects in tight spaces, and I prefer to walk in the street if possible anyways. Similarly I like to wear my headphones during being outside do to social anxiety and because of some other brain related reasons, but I can see the stress suffered by most other people around squalling children and also having older runs running around.

        If people want to argue that people with children have rights, that’s fine, but they are almost always lying when they claim they are arguing for children to have rights also.

    2. Sadly, at least one reason no one tells businessmen to leave their restaurants because they often spend a lot of money per head in restaurants. Caretaker/kid combos typically spend less per head but take up more room. And that’s not even factoring in the potential for behavior that puts off other patrons.

      Restaurants, at least ones that hope to be successful, make economic decisions. Those who calculate that accommodating children will help their bottom line usually make a point to do so. Those who figure out they can forgo it will often opt for the less inclusive, but easier, choice.

  26. I’m of the “it takes a village” camp, meaning I have no compunction whatsoever about yelling at other people’s children to knock it off when they’re behaving inappropriately. The kid using the drinking fountain to spit water at his friends at the pool? Knock it off. Also, see the no spitting sign in front of your face. The group of boys mocking a little girl at the baseball park? Knock it off, or, tell me where your mom is so I can inform her about what nonsense you’re doing. Screaming at wild decibels? Quiet down, for real guys. And when I was a server? Mom and dad, we need to move your stroller, kthxbai.

    Then again, I’ve been a parent my entire legal adulthood and children are not only welcome and a major part of my life, but also my norm. The only places I’ve ever gotten flack for bringing kids is in places where kids aren’t the norm. Like (ironically) the campus coffee shop (they’re all kids to me), or the one time a friend and I took our elementary schoolers to a fancy restaurant and the adorable fawning over the beauty and flavor of the cheese plate sucked all the romance out of the room for the couple next to us (sorry!). But my stance is tough shit, general public, suck it up, and also that I’m going to do my best to see that my kids behave the social norms that are appropriate for that space.

    1. Yes! I love it when other people make the corrections in public – kids can get inured to their parents constantly correcting them in public. When a stranger does it, it can have a real impact on the kid and bring it home that public spaces really do require different behaviors than private ones.

      That said, I know that some parents can really get their back up when somebody else corrects their kids, so I understand why people sometimes throw dirty looks instead of saying something constructive.

      I realize this is not quite a revolutionary thought, but the entire relationship between parents and non-parents in public spaces (and the discourse surrounding this relationship) needs more understanding, patience, and trust that people are doing their best. Most of us are just trying to navigate a world where many different people have many different needs.

  27. I got off board completely with the swipe at childless hipsters. No one forced you to have kids, lady. Every time I hear someone paint those without children as selfish “hipsters” because they have other priorities than raising children, all I hear is seething jealousy that others aren’t as burdened as you. Like I said before, I think a lot of the parents who let their kids run around like little monsters had kids mindlessly and now are burning with resentment at how much work it is. So they don’t do a lot of it, much in the way I refuse to make my bed anymore. Kids and adults would all be better off if you only jumped into parenting with a true, thorough commitment to the hard work that it really is.

    Also, super tired of the notion that the childless hipster you’re glaring at because she gets to have a cool hat while you have a stroller must have a carefree life. First of all, if she does, so what? That’s her right to make that a priority over having kids. Second of all, a lot more of those people have lives that are demanding in entirely different ways. Many of them are artists or writers who work one job to pay the bills while putting another 40 in a week building towards their goals. Some of them may be full-time at their dream work, but since it’s haphazard, they’re still people who pull 12, 16 hour days routinely. (*cough*) Yeah, they can spend their money on cool hats instead of diapers, but that doesn’t make them lazy, selfish, or anything like that. Some of them, I can assure you, gave up any hope of a quiet family life because they’ve decided instead to try to do their part to save the world.

    And, of course, some of the hipster who are getting the U SO SELFISH glares are just people who are young! You never know: In a few years, they might be pushing a stroller around and feeling a burning resentment at younger people who are still sleeping in ’til noon.

    In my experience, parents who go in with clear eyes and a real commitment to parenting—who make that choice because they want to, not because it’s what you’re expected to do—tend not to be so snotty about “hipsters”. I know a lot of parents who really wanted this, and I’ve never gotten the U SO SELFISH vibe off them.

    1. Some of them, I can assure you, gave up any hope of a quiet family life because they’ve decided instead to try to do their part to save the world.

      A quiet family life is a huge privilege in and of itself. Very few people (parents or otherwise) get to have that at all – they’re just not the sort of people being quoted in a particular section of the NYT.

    2. Yeah, they can spend their money on cool hats instead of diapers, but that doesn’t make them lazy, selfish, or anything like that. Some of them, I can assure you, gave up any hope of a quiet family life because they’ve decided instead to try to do their part to save the world.

      Riiiiiight. I get it–to “do your part” in any meaningful effort to improve the world, you must not have babies. I see.

      Aside from which, people hate hipsters because they’re often bloody annoying. Parents aren’t the only people that get irritated with them. In fact–GASP–there are hipsters *with* children. They still manage to be irritating.

      But excuse me if I can’t conjure up deep wells of sympathy for people who have the privilege to work a decent job while putting in “an extra 30 or 40 hours a week” towards their dream. Or people (like me) who regularly work 15-16 hour days because their work is sporadic. Our lives are sooooo haaaard, I know.

      You know, my friends who are legit doing their part to save the world work a hell of a lot more than I do. Some of them have chosen to have kids, some of them haven’t. The ones that have got a lot of help and planned that help in advance. But the idea that children by their very existence distract from the lofty, noble goal of saving the world? That they prevent your ladybrain from functioning at full speed? Is sexist.

    3. and now are burning with resentment at how much work it is

      Not to mention their resentment at the fact that they’re only having 30% as much fun as they did before.

      1. Not to mention their resentment that Amanda told them that they’re only having 30% as much fun as they did before.

        FTFY

    4. I assume your responding to my comment. And if you are you completely and utterly missed my point.

      Specifically, the us v. them where parents and kids get criticized for their very existence by the those without kids. I haven’t seen anyone here criticize or mock the childfree/less or their choice to do so or their reasoning for doing so. That’s just you projecting and putting words into people’s mouths.

      I don’t really care if general you wear ironic hats or facial hair or skinny jeans or whatever. Do whatever the heck you want. But when you start swiping at and judging my stroller, and worse yet my being a mother, simply because it’s the funny, ironic and fashionable thing to do, then I’m going to get all turn about is fair play on you.

      1. It’s not because it’s the fun, ironic and fashionable thing to do; it’s because a traditional way to get one’s Independent Cool Chick card stamped is to shit on all those stupid, cow-like women who do traditional women-things, like breed, doncha know.

    5. Some of them, I can assure you, gave up any hope of a quiet family life because they’ve decided instead to try to do their part to save the world.

      This is so incredibly insulting. Can you really not see how insisting that doing one’s part to save the world is incompatible with having a child is disgustingly insulting and just flat out untrue?

      This is how some mainstream Feminists marginalize a huge segment of the population. By implying or flat out insisting that becoming a mother makes us useless and selfish, and to imply that we can no longer call ourselves feminists is a lie.

      I know it’s Amanda’s hobby horse to be angry at those who judge her for being CFBC. That’s fine and perfectly reasonable and understandable. But taking the one true Feminist approach to being CFBC is outrageous. We really all can co-exist on this issue. It’s a fundamental part of Feminist ideology that women have the choice and power to not procreate, but the choice to procreate is also supposed to stand unchallenged as well.

      1. This is so incredibly insulting. Can you really not see how insisting that doing one’s part to save the world is incompatible with having a child is disgustingly insulting and just flat out untrue?

        I think it’s hilarious!

        I think if people like Aung San Suu Kyi, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, Wangari Maathai, Tawakel Karman and so on read this thread, they’d piss their pants laughing.

        1. I suspect they would get a Special Exemption because they’re clearly from those developing nations where women don’t have any access to birth control and abortion, unlike us first-worlders, who ought to know better than to be breeeeeders.

      2. It’s a lot easier to read Amanda once you realize that everything Amanda writes is about Amanda.

        1. Totally unfair! Often, Amanda writes about how people would be more like Amanda if they only knew better, or how people who deliberately choose not to be like Amanda fail at life.

    6. Some of them, I can assure you, gave up any hope of a quiet family life because they’ve decided instead to try to do their part to save the world.

      Thank goodness for hipsters without children! Where would any of us be without them? Goodness knows none of the great world-saving activists have ever had children–or not been hipsters. It’s a good thing hipsters are here to save us; after all, prior to the 1990s, there was no activism of any kind.

      1. I may have been misunderstanding her, but I think Amanda was objecting to the characterization of anyone without children as “fedora wearing hipster with no real problems” more than she was suggesting that hipsters are saving the world.

        Don’t get me wrong… I disagreed with much of what she wrote here. I am most definitely for people showing much more patience with children while they’re participating in public life, but that line about hipsters on planes in the OP actually made me roll my eyes, too.

      2. Yeah, I live in Portland, which is awash in hipsters. There is so much world-saving here it isn’t even funny. I can’t walk out my front door without running into a world saver riding a fixie and wearing ugly oversized glasses. I wish that they would get on with it, though, because I could use a job, and maybe more than 30% fun. Do I get more now, because my daughter is a teenager? Or am I stuck with low numbers forever?

        But seriously, even though my stroller days are way, way past, I do remember them clearly. And I didn’t live in a Park Slope neighborhood, where everyone had these massively huge strollers and was awash with privilege, as I lived in one of the Latino areas of Chicago. (though I personally was awash with it, and was a gentrifier, being all kinds of white and middle class) So there weren’t a lot of restaurants in the area where one was going to get the side eye if you took your kid in, (we just couldn’t afford the nice restaurants anyway) and you always shopped with your stroller, and I’ve never owned a car in my life, so we’ve always used public transportation. It was policy for people to fold the strollers on the buses, and I actually fell off one going out the back door and sprained my ankle trying to juggle the stroller, a diaper bag, my toddler daughter and the door. (she even remembered it as a six year old) I think only one person got off the bus to see if we were okay, and to let me use her phone. Though, that might just be because people were assholes and the bus driver was a dick, but still, it was one of those moments where no one helped a struggling parent out a door, one who made a point to follow all the rules, and that sucked.

    7. Second of all, a lot more of those people have lives that are demanding in entirely different ways. Many of them are artists or writers who work one job to pay the bills while putting another 40 in a week building towards their goals. Some of them may be full-time at their dream work, but since it’s haphazard, they’re still people who pull 12, 16 hour days routinely

      Lot of people have demanding jobs. Depending on why they’re demanding other people will give you more/less slack and respect. Your desire to write snarky commentary for a living is generally given less respect/slack than raising kids. Seems like you’re annoyed that all choices aren’t awarded the same respect.

    8. So, I’m not going to lie. I am a 33 year old mother of an 18 month old and sometimes I get jealous of my child-free friends. While I wouldn’t quite characterize that jealousy as “seething,” it is certainly there from time to time.

      That said, the jealousy I might feel when I have to leave a party just when things are getting going, or turn down an invitation I would have accepted pre-kid… it’s not my kid’s fault. I made an informed decision to become a parent and, underneath whatever surface frustrations might arise, I am happy I made that choice. Overall, I am at peace with my role.

      When you see people who seem frustrated with their role as a parent, it does not follow that they are seething with anger and resentment. Maybe they are having a bad day. Maybe their kid is just getting over the flu, but errands still need to be done. Maybe they are hassled and harried and having a difficult time, but are still perfectly happy to be parents. Your reading of parents who get overwhelmed in public strikes me as an ungenerous one.

      True, some people had kids without thinking about it first (maybe it was just “the thing to do,” maybe they got pregnant by accident and realized that abortion wasn’t the right choice for them, maybe they even thought they wanted a kid, but later realized they would have been happier without one), but so what? It just doesn’t follow that they then spend the rest of their lives as a ball of abject, envious misery.

  28. Also, I will never get all the irritation at the hat revival in NYC for men. People here walk a lot, which means you need protection from the elements. Just like in Ye Olden Days before most Americans took cars everywhere, hats proliferated in part out of necessity.

    1. Oh, bullshit. People here were walking a lot long before a certain group of young men decided to wear silly hats. It’s not like today’s hipster men are walking just loads more than people were walking twenty years ago.

      1. Weirdly, most of the hipsters I am familiar with have no interest in letting the elements ruin their nice hats.

    2. I’ve been wearing fedoras and other hats for like 20 years and I’m not even bald or anything (well a little bit up front.) When I wear a hat, I feel I look sharp and even somewhat professional. I don’t mind at all that young guys have started copying my look – heck, I was a young guy when I started wearing a fedora. What?

    3. I don’t think anyone’s bothered by the hats themselves, for fuck’s sake. What’s irritating is that they’re a compulsory accessory for fauxhemians, people who claim to be countercultural and yet are doing everything to accelerate capitalism. (You might want to read this and consider the consequences of an endless focus on “cool:” http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2012/07/elizabeth-l-cline-overdressed-the-shockingly-high.html ) Conformist anti-conformity is not only annoying, it’s also an obstacle to real change. It’s youth-centered lifestyle progressivism.

  29. I’m always stunned at the passion these articles generate in discussions. I’ll never grasp the fuss about including kids in a public space, but then again, this seems to be a “middle class and up” sort of concern. I never see this attitude from people who are in my income group. Noisy kids are annoying sometimes, but damn, the only time you notice them is when they’re being loud.

    And I seriously doubt that the parents people talk about that are just OH so horrible are always like that, or as common as they think. Bad days happen, parents get frustrated, sometimes it’s easier to ignore your kids or else you lose your temper, which then really gets you the title of Worst Parent Ever. They’re with a kid 365 days of a year (in theory) and you’re around them a few hours tops. Please inform me how you can tell how a person parents majority of the time in that span of time.

    And this coming from someone who’s childless! Not a hard concept to grasp.

    1. sometimes it’s easier to ignore your kids

      And sometimes it’s what the “experts” tell you is the best thing to do.

      1. And sometimes it’s what the “experts” tell you is the best thing to do.

        Very true.

        You know what is not going to teach a kid the right life lesson in the bigger picture? Giving in to them and letting them have whatever they want if they throw a tantrum, regardless of whether or not it’s in public.

        I recently let my 2yo roll around on the ground and have it out (not coincidentally the last time I tried walking without him in the stroller) instead of picking him up and carrying him. Because that was exactly what he wanted, and giving in would have been the wrongest of wrong choices to make in that moment. Of course I moved him over when a few pedestrians walked by so that he wasn’t in their way. Both of them were older ladies, and they both were very sympathetic and supportive, telling me to just leave him to tantrum until he was done instead of trying to short circuit it.

        1. When I was about 5, the lady next door babysat for me and another little boy. He was the most obnoxious little jerk on the planet. One day she went to the bathroom and he decided he wanted a drink of water. When she didn’t stop in the middle of going to the bathroom to get him his water, he threw himself onto the floor and began kicking and screaming. I went to the kitchen, found the biggest glass I could, filled it with water and dumped the entire thing right into his screaming little jerk face.

          He stopped his tantrum.

          It was quite satisfying.

          *note- this is not advocating adults water board screaming children

        2. I always feel so bad for parents with tantrumming babies.

          I remember being in the line at an international airport to get my passport stamped and to go through customs. There was a lady (who I believe was by herself) handling carryons, a large baby – I’d say maybe 12 months – and a little boy of about three. They’d just flown a very long ways (it was an airport in Australia, there really aren’t many short international flights to Sydney!) and the three-year-old was tired, and refused to walk. His mother could not carry him AND the infant AND the bags… so he fell to the floor and just started screaming. She had to keep moving her bags down the floor, going back and picking him up, and repeating the process.

          oof.

      2. Indeed. Lots of child development experts recommend ignoring a tantrum, (above and beyond not acceding to the demands of the tantrum-er) because attention feeds the beast. I’ve read books that suggest leaving the room if possible so that the kid has no audience for his/her performance.

  30. So yesterday, I was on the subway carrying a bag of groceries, my purse and my guitar. A man asked me if I wanted his seat. I declined since I was getting off at the next stop.

    So when this lady says she doesn’t want “special treatment” she just means she wants common courtesy that should be extended to anyone who looks like they are struggling a bit.

  31. My partner has kids (8 and 10) and at that age, the kids are great. It’s society and people who seem afraid of children that make it a pain. Apparently when you become a parent society expects you to devote all your time to them and not have fun at all. I think a lot of business owners are missing a trick here in not making places open to children/more accessible to parents at least some of the time.
    Also, if people are organizing an event, I wish people would more often ask themselves, “Can children come?” and be explicit about whether they can or not and why or why not.
    For example, I see no reason why you shouldn’t be able to bring children who can occupy themselves to a ceilidh dance except that the organizers decided to hold it in a licensed location that wouldn’t allow children. They even excluded 17-year olds who could really enjoy the event!

    1. My partner has kids (8 and 10) and at that age, the kids are great. It’s society and people who seem afraid of children that make it a pain.

      Yeah, the problem is people who seem afraid. If we could all be as brave as you about anything.

      I’m sorry, but the bias against childless people here is unbelievable. I can’t believe I have to point this out every time this topic comes up: a good number of childless people are childless due to circumstance beyond their control. I’ve talked about my wife’s health problems that led to our decision not have children, but whether that reason be due to low sperm count, having a hysterectomy, or something non-medical such as not finding a partner, many people affected by this set up emotional barriers which cause you to seem like you ‘don’t like children.’

      It just stuns me that so many people who claim to view their children as a source of joy and fulfillment have no sympathy for someone who is unable to share that experience and lack the empathy to understand that this ‘attitude’ they get from childless adults is as much a coping mechanism as anything else.

      1. It’s not about being brave. That’s the point. Being around children, particularly well-behaved children who occupy themselves shouldn’t be brave. It should be normal. Our friend wants his house to remain an adult environment. Fair enough, it’s his house but we don’t expect people to act differently just because the kids are around. They are used to adults having adult conversation.
        I’ll take your word for it that for some childless adults it’s a coping mechanism but we know our friends. Some of them seem to have a genuine fear of children, no matter how well-behaved the children are.

      2. I’m sorry, but the bias against childless people here is unbelievable.

        No, there really isn’t any bias against those who are childless/childfree going on. I honestly don’t understand how you’re coming to that conclusion, Steve. Especially after Amanda’s anti-parent and child screed in her comments. According to her, your consistently having at least 70% more fun than those of us with kids while also doing all the heavy lifting to solve the world’s ills.

      3. Fat Steve, you do know that the parents here did not emerge from the womb with their own babies clutched in their chubby fists? Every single one of us was once childless. And guess what, some of us also had to struggle with health problems and fertility issues, too. Some of us had children only after metric fucktons of medical intervention. Some of us have children who are not the children of our body.

        I get very tired of people who want to turn every groudon discussion about kids in public spaces into “hey, CFers, let’s talk about how much parents suck.”

  32. I live in a condominium complex. My kids were riding bicycles outside, on the weekend, in the afternoon. Our childless neighbor came out of his apartment to tell them to go back inside because they were interrupting his studying, and let us know that when we live in a multifamily space we have to be considerate of the other people who live there, and sometimes make sacrifices (make sacrifices is my condensed version of his rambling excuse). He said this with a straight face, without considering once that when he lives in a multifamily space, he also has to be considerate of other people who live there, and make his own sacrifices.

    THAT is a childless person being selfish. Not having children yet/ever? Totally irrelevant.

    And not to pull rank or anything, but we lived here first, and whenever it was he was looking at the place, we or some other kid was probably riding bicycles. Or playing in the pool. Or making their presence generally known in this not-adults-only community half a mile from an elementary school.

    FYI: There is a public library less than a mile away where children do not ride bicycles, with free wifi and open on the weekends.

  33. I took my kids to restaurants when they were little.

    Sometimes they would scream or refuse to sit down or generally misbehave, so I would stand up, stick them under my arm if necessary and leave. Fast.

    Now they don’t misbehave in restaurants anymore.

    And from personal experience I’ll admit it: Leaving SUCKS. Leaving sucks because it’s embarrassing; it sucks because you feel like saved up for dinner (even if you take things to go;) it sucks because you drove all the way to a nice restaurant; it sucks because you hired a sitter for your three year old and you only brought the new baby, who was supposed to be asleep. Mostly, it sucks because you just wanted to have a goddamn normal evening for once and you haven’t been out in two years already.

    And sometimes it is very very tempting to say “oh, fuck everyone else. They can live with a bit of screaming. I’m not going to leave here. I’ll just sing songs and jingle bells and maybe let them throw some rolls around; it’s not any worse than dinner at my house.”

    But guess what? Here’s something that new parents don’t often consider: All those other people? THEY want to be there too. THEY saved up their money for dinner; THEY hired a babysitter (if needed;) THEY drove in to town and parked; THEY may also be out on their first normal evening of the last two years. And maybe they’re even parents like you, out for the first child free night ever!

    So give them a break, willya? In fact, if you’re surrounded by 40 other people, it’s damn likely that at least some of them are just as (or more!) poor, hard-working, invested, put-upon, and needful of a night out without screaming kids.

    In fact, the very reason that you are getting glares is because you and they aren’t at a Chuck E. Cheese. Which is probably because you (like they!) wanted somewhere with less screaming. And you (like they!) thought it would be a special night with your date. And you (like they!) thought that this appealing neighborhood restaurant with $25 entrees would be a decent place to relax for a bit and enjoy a quiet night out….

    Which it was, for everyone. Until your baby started screaming.

    That’s not your fault. Babies cry. But whether or not it’s your fault, you’re turning “appealing quiet neighborhood restaurant with $25 entrees” into UNappealing UNquiet neighborhood restaurant with $25 entrees,” and none of them are given a say in that.

    There’s nothing selfish about wanting to have a nice night. The selfish part comes from pretending that your needs (finishing your bottle of wine, even if your kids are screaming) override everyone else enjoying THEIR wine.

    1. Here’s something that new parents don’t often consider

      Based on your survey of new parents, I suppose.

    2. There’s nothing selfish about wanting to have a nice night. The selfish part comes from pretending that your needs (finishing your bottle of wine, even if your kids are screaming) override everyone else enjoying THEIR wine.

      What’s that saying about don’t hurt yourself trying so hard to pat yourself on the back?

      This really isn’t rocket science. Consideration, common sense and and respect are all a two way street. Of course you take your crying baby out of a restaurant if they get going. But the very presence of a baby does not automatically equal crying, fussing or bad behavior. So I will continue (along with my spouse, ’cause we’re in this parenting thing together) to be respectful of fellow restaurant patrons and they should not automatically assume that the very presence of an infant or a child in the same room will ruin their night.

      See, fairness for both sides. How very revolutionary.

      1. they should not automatically assume that the very presence of an infant or a child in the same room will ruin their night

        I kind of agree with you, but: Is that a straw man or have I missed someone arguing for that viewpoint?

        The interesting discussion to be had is all in the details of what “consideration, common sense and and respect” entails. How much decorum can be demanded in which public setting? What type of behavior from a child should be seen as acceptable in which context?

        That kind of nuanced discussion is unfortunately very uncommon on these types of threads.

        1. Is that a straw man or have I missed someone arguing for that viewpoint?

          Here’s the thing, all of this discussion of the badly behaved child in public ruining it for everyone is often done in such a way that the working assumption is that there are no well behaved children anywhere these days and no decent parents parenting them so that they learn to behave.

          I took the position in that other thread that all of the laser like focus on the relatively small 25% or so that is ruining it for everyone completely ignores the reality that the vast majority of people (and their kids) are well meaning and doing their best to not be jerks and not ruin it for everyone else. But like I also said, it’s a lot easier to keep the controversy going and hold onto to the righteous indignation by ignoring how most people are not jerks after all. Especially when it comes to the Parenting wars.

      2. What’s that saying about don’t hurt yourself trying so hard to pat yourself on the back?

        Damn right that I’m proud of what I do. And I’m appreciative of other folks who do it, and I think they should be proud of themselves as well; sounds like you’re one of them. Because sometimes being considerate is apain in the ass, which is a lot of the reason that folks aren’t considerate all the time.

        So… what’s wrong with being proud? Is it bad to be proud of raising my kids well, and to teach them to avoid annoying folks?

        Screw that. This isn’t easy (see above) nor balanced. And yeah, I know there are a lot of ways in which childrearing is individualized and parental choice and all that, but “keep your kids from annoying everyone else” is pretty global. “Let her cry it out” works in Stop and Shop or McD’s but not everywhere.

        And since there are ten thousand comments on a hundred threads noting that a lot of people AREN’T considerate, and since pretty much everyone has had some experience with those folks: Well, perhaps a bit more clarity would be in order.

        How the heck can you get more people to do the right thing unless folks like you–who apparently know what it is, and how to do it–are willing to distinguish between good and bad behavior? If you’re trying too hard to avoid judging folks, you also don’t teach anything.

        1. So… what’s wrong with being proud? Is it bad to be proud of raising my kids well, and to teach them to avoid annoying folks?

          The main thing with which I am taking issue in your comment is that it comes off as though you think you’re the first person ever to come up with all of this and that you are enlightening all the rest of us clueless people who haven’t gotten it all figured out yet.

          If that wasn’t your intent, then fine. The over the top self-congratulatory tone of your comment certainly indicated otherwise.

          And I’m trying hardish to not judge folks because everyone else seems to try so hard in their everyday life to judge as often and as harshly as they can possibly muster, and without much regard for whether the extreme judgment is fitting or necessary for the given circumstances. Anyway, I just don’t see how going out of one’s way to make others feel like crap about themselves and their kids makes the crap heaper feel any better about themselves or the world around them.

  34. I’ve been thinking about this comment section all morning, and a few ideas –inspired by comments already made–have coalesced in my head, which I will dedicate a wall of text to now, with numbers to keep me on point, which is mostly about restaurants.

    1. Your beef with disruptive people in the restaurant is with the restaurant owners and managers, not with the disruptive patrons. True, a parent is responsible for the behavior of the children, but parents not taking responsibility happen. THE RESTAURANT OWNERS AND MANAGERS ENABLE THEM. If you don’t care for the type of clientele the restaurant attracts, tell the owners. Let them know that you will not patronize their business as long as they let behavior like that ruin your good time (or endanger their employees, or whatever the particular issue is). The restaurant will let you know pretty clearly whose business they value more. It’s all economics, as was said upstream. But if noisy children are interfering with your dinner, it’s the restaurant’s fault. Not the parents’. It’s just the parents’ fault (maybe) that the kids are noisy. The restaurant is letting them stay.

    2. My informed by personal observation and anecdote opinion is that restaurants no longer signify wealth/class the way they used to. When I was a young kid in the 1970s we almost never ate at restaurants, and not because of a children don’t belong in public assumption. It was because, frankly, my parents were much younger than me and restaurant meals were much more expensive. Sit-down full-service dinners are much more accessible, which means everyone gets to go now. Expectations about who restaurants were FOR were based on who was there and how they defined etiquette, but there’s no reason beyond personal preference to discriminate now. Different people go to restaurants now. Cultures change.

    3. There is no right to a meal that is expensive AND quiet AND romantic AND out, especially on the spur of the moment. For the amount I’ve paid for two at low-scale fancy restaurants I could have also paid for someone to clean my house and delivered a nice dinner if I wanted quiet and peaceful. Restaurants are great for spontaneous entertainment and for planned-ahead special occasions, but going out means you will be mingling with other people with their own expectations about what is appropriate behavior in a restaurant. And there is no natural reason why a kid playing over there in any way detracts from the romance level of your dinner over here. It’s all arbitrary. And there are plenty of opportunities for adults-only dining, at least in the city I live. Lots of restaurant have a night a month or every quarter to do special fixed menus with, say, wine or beer pairings that you have to be 21 to attend.

    4. I think this Children Don’t Belong Phase is just a phase. People got so used treating children one way for a few decades and assuming everyone agreed because they personally had the resources to keep children out are finding out that lots of other people in their community don’t agree. The presence of family restaurants that aren’t Chuck E Cheese or McDonalds–and they are everywhere–is indicative of that, as is the proliferation of adults-only events (like the dinners I mentioned above, like those trendy movie theaters with liquor licenses, like those adults-only island resorts, like senior-only living communities). It’s becoming the rule that children are supposed to be in public, and people who don’t like it are opting out. As the world’s most cynical optimist, I am sure this rumbling is just transition pains.

  35. Wow these comments are thought provoking and interesting! I am child free but don’t mind kids out in the open spaces of life and in fact I think it is a good idea to get kids out there and teach them about sharing spaces and such. The thing I don’t like about anyone regardless of age is the thoughtlessness of people at the movies. That really burns me up regardless of age or well anything just be respectful for a couple of hours. Also, thanks for showing it from the side of the waiters/waitresses!

  36. I think the one post on the Times that got me was the comment, don’t set your kids up to fail.

    YES. THIS.

    Parents, you’re the adult. You know your child. You know if you’re coming to the end of their leash, or if they’re tired beyond normal tired and about to have a tantrum. It’s not reasonable to expect little kids (6 and unders) to have the kind of impulse control or forethought or empathy or socialisation you’d expect of an adult. It’s not reasonable to get little kids onto a schedule, a routine, and then break that routine and expect them to magically behave. Nor is it reasonable to expect that strangers will react in helpful or tolerant ways–maybe they will, maybe they won’t.

  37. I live in a condominium complex. My kids were riding bicycles outside, on the weekend, in the afternoon. Our childless neighbor came out of his apartment to tell them to go back inside because they were interrupting his studying, and let us know that when we live in a multifamily space we have to be considerate of the other people who live there, and sometimes make sacrifices (make sacrifices is my condensed version of his rambling excuse). He said this with a straight face, without considering once that when he lives in a multifamily space, he also has to be considerate of other people who live there, and make his own sacrifices.

    THAT is a childless person being selfish. Not having children yet/ever? Totally irrelevant.

    And not to pull rank or anything, but we lived here first, and whenever it was he was looking at the place, we or some other kid was probably riding bicycles. Or playing in the pool. Or making their presence generally known in this not-adults-only community half a mile from an elementary school.

    FYI: There is a public library less than a mile away where children do not ride bicycles, with free wifi and open on the weekends.

    How dare he expect peace and quiet in his own home? You mean to tell me he would rather sit in the comfort of his home than walk a mile to library? What a selfish jerk, ruining your kids opportunity to shout and cause disturbance with his oppressive studying. Doesn’t he know that your children’s being able to ride their bikes wherever they want is so much more important than his education? God, some people in your condo complex are just so selfish.

    1. Headphones? Earplugs? It’s hardly fair to expect kids to stay indoors on the weekend being very quiet and not being in the least bit noticeable. There are ways to work around the inevitable noises of neighbors.

    2. How dare he expect peace and quiet in his own home?

      Well, how dare children expect to be able to play normal kid games in the vicinity of their own home on a weekend afternoon?

      Honestly, I never expect quiet in my own home. There’s a whole outside world there full of people, and I haven’t soundproofed. Loud TVs can make me shirty, but in general, trucks go by, construction goes on, people walk through the hallways chatting, drunken revelers stumble out of the bar a few doors down, whatever. When I need serious quiet for studying, I go to the library. That’s what it’s for.

      1. Well, how dare children expect to be able to play normal kid games in the vicinity of their own home on a weekend afternoon?

        So my sister and I weren’t normal kids because my parents taught us to respect our neighbors? We were just crazy weirdos who rode our bikes around the streets while the ‘normal’ kids rode back and forth outside someone’s door. And we didn’t expect peace and quiet, not on the Grand Central Parkway service road, just consideration for neighbors.

        The pissy entitled attitude that Karen displays with her original comment is LITERALLY the only issue I have with parents. Maybe something went on that she isn’t saying, but all she has said was that her children were riding bicycles to the point where their neighbor had to come out of his house and was disturbed. His request for consideration is feebly described as ‘excuses.’ The story stinks anyway, who the hell rides their bike in front of someone’s door? And how loud is bike riding anyway? It doesn’t sound to me that Karen even considered that her children may have been in the wrong and most likely were doing something above and beyond bike riding.

        1. It doesn’t sound to me that Karen even considered that her children may have been in the wrong and most likely were doing something above and beyond bike riding.

          Why would you automatically assume that the kids were doing something other than what Karen says they were? The neighbor’s complaint was that they were noisy. Surely he would have said if they had been shouting insults at him or throwing rocks at his door or anything out of the ordinary. Kids hanging out and playing on their own blocks on the weekend is what kids do; the idea that it’s unreasonable of them to do so is a move toward segregating children from public life in a way I really loathe.

          Sure, we commenters could all start assuming bad faith and that things don’t go down the way we said they do on every comment, but in the absence of any other indications, I don’t see any reason to doubt what Karen said, and I don’t see where such an assumption of bad faith gets us.

        2. Steve…if the street near their house on a weekend afternoon isn’t an appropriate place for kids to play bikes and yell and generally have fun, then where is?

          I mean really, even the most “seen and not heard” crowd tends to cede the bike-riding and game-playing to American kids on summer weekends, outside, for pete’s sake.

        3. Cosigned. All I got from that story was “my children are fucking angels, who the hell is someone to suggest they quiet down??” It reeked of bias against childfree people*, and more than a little factual tweaking.

          *or just people who aren’t particularly enamored of your loud children

    3. Here is a case where a little courtesy could have saved everyone trouble. I’m sure if the dude had walked down stairs and said *with kindness and respect* to the kids “Hey, I know you guys are just playing and having fun, but I’ve got this big thing and I would really, really appreciate it if you could keep it down a little bit.” The kids probably would have moved elsewhere or played more quietly. I’m *sure* about it, because I’ve done it. I’ve also had neighbors say, “Hey, the new baby has had some trouble sleeping would you mind…” and we’ve been happy to accomodate.

      We have to share space with our fellow human beings and sometimes we have to negotiate how to use that space. Half the problem is that most humans seem to think they are entitled to full and exclusive use of the entire planet which means they either demand others give them all the space they need or get huffy when someone else has incompatible use.

      1. Here is a case where a little courtesy could have saved everyone trouble. I’m sure if the dude had walked down stairs and said *with kindness and respect* to the kids “Hey, I know you guys are just playing and having fun, but I’ve got this big thing and I would really, really appreciate it if you could keep it down a little bit.” The kids probably would have moved elsewhere or played more quietly. I’m *sure* about it, because I’ve done it. I’ve also had neighbors say, “Hey, the new baby has had some trouble sleeping would you mind…” and we’ve been happy to accomodate.

        We have to share space with our fellow human beings and sometimes we have to negotiate how to use that space. Half the problem is that most humans seem to think they are entitled to full and exclusive use of the entire planet which means they either demand others give them all the space they need or get huffy when someone else has incompatible use.

        What you describe in the first paragraph is the way nearly every childless person I know would have handled it. It’s certainly the way I would have handled it. So why does Karen have to use the word ‘childless’ like a swear word?

        I would buy your charitable reading, had she given any indication that she thought it was a perfectly reasonable request but worded so poorly she became offended. There is nothing in her comment which gives the request any sort of merit. Her self described behavior sounds much more like she is in the category you describe in your final sentence.

        I’m not saying that Karen handled it wrong, in many ways I wish my mother had taken my side against adults and authority figures even when I was in the wrong. With me it was “Mr Fachetti wouldn’t give me my football back when it landed in his yard.” “Well, don’t go throwing your football into Mr. Fachetti’s yard,” so I personally think Karen sounds like a great mother, just a bad neighbor.

        1. Well, probably because she’s angry at the other person who was being unreasonable. She could shrug it off as assholes being assholes, but instead it sounds like she blames childfree people as a class. Sure its a bit obnoxious to childfree people because we’re tired of all the condescending bullshit we hear from parents. But in this case in response to a specific person being a total ass to her kids. I tend to give people a pass for being slightly obnoxious under those circumstances.

        2. Nope, I disagree. If the neighbor had just complained about noise maybe I’d be less “Fuck that” but telling kids to go back inside? Fuck that. Kids outside is a joyous occasion. Kids outside means no Dino Dan and no Wow Wow Wubzy. I had 3 little girls today, and the first thing I did was take them outside to run around. If a neighbor had complained about the noise, even if they were a giant asshole about it, I would have gotten the girls to settle. But telling kids to go inside is practically declaring war.

        3. Well, probably because she’s angry at the other person who was being unreasonable. She could shrug it off as assholes being assholes, but instead it sounds like she blames childfree people as a class. Sure its a bit obnoxious to childfree people because we’re tired of all the condescending bullshit we hear from parents. But in this case in response to a specific person being a total ass to her kids. I tend to give people a pass for being slightly obnoxious under those circumstances.

          @Kristen

          I’m sorry but I don’t see how he was being unreasonable. Not in the slightest. Here is her exact quote:

          Our childless neighbor came out of his apartment to tell them to go back inside because they were interrupting his studying, and let us know that when we live in a multifamily space we have to be considerate of the other people who live there, and sometimes make sacrifices (make sacrifices is my condensed version of his rambling excuse).

          Which of his three points is unreasonable? That her kids “were interrupting his studying”? That “when we live in a multifamily space we have to be considerate of the other people who live there”?or that people shouldn’t “sometimes make sacrifices”?

          In no way does she describe his manner as aggressive or unreasonable, and barring new information about that, I don’t see anything in the words that is at all unreasonable. So where do you see the unreasonableness?

        4. Telling them to go inside was unreasonable. You may ask people, politely, to keep down the noise. Ordering them about and particularly ordering them to go inside from a public street as if he had some prior right to the street is was unreasonable.

        5. Telling them to go inside was unreasonable. You may ask people, politely, to keep down the noise. Ordering them about and particularly ordering them to go inside from a public street as if he had some prior right to the street is was unreasonable.

          Where does she say it was a public street? Where does she say he ‘ordered them about’? She didn’t witness the kids being told to go indoors, and neither she nor you knows how politely it was done, and it sounds like he followed up immediately with an explanation, which as I said before, sounds perfectly reasonable. She describes him giving a ‘rambling excuse.’ Making an excuse means admitting you’re in the wrong but pleading justification. What’s wrong with that? What’s unreasonable about that?

          Oh yeah. She lived there first.

        6. That’s assuming that she’s misreporting what happened. I have no reason to believe she is. You asked what sounded like the neighbor was being unreasonable and that what sounded unreasonable.

        7. She didn’t witness the kids being told to go indoors, and neither she nor you knows how politely it was done,

          I can’t speak for Kristen’s opinion, but no matter how politely it’s done, you can’t demand a child go back inside. You can ask them to be quieter, you can talk to their parent if they keep up the volume, but you can’t tell them to go inside. Children have the right to be outside just as much as anyone else. Telling children who are outside during the day on a weekend to go back inside is absurd.

        8. Well, Kristen, I guess I’m not convincing you on this one. Gotta say, the threaded comments help to make it blindingly obvious when it’s time to agree to disagree.

    4. I don’t know where to reply to this or where it will show up.

      I could hear everything that was said to my children, because my kitchen has a window, which was open. I could even see everybody.

      We live in a condominium complex, which means, yes, we can’t be as noisy as we want whenever we want but which also means that no, you can’t expect absolute peace and quiet. That’s one of the drawbacks to a high density living situation. You get lots of amenities, but you have to share. I mentioned that we moved in first because children were already out and about in the community before this guy even moved in, but suddenly because he’s here and he has to study on the weekend we have to be quiet to accommodate him but he can’t accommodate us? And when there’s a library down the street if children noise is too distracting? Posted quiet hours are from 10:00 PM to 8:00 AM but it wasn’t even dinner time. It was like 4:30 on a Sunday in the summer. In an elementary school neighborhood.

      I want to take all three of us to a park to play about the same amount as he wants to take himself to a library to study. But it’s bad when I don’t wanna but an unpleasant hassle when he doesn’t wanna.

      And I mentioned that he was childless because when I first posted it the discussion about whether the hipsters with funny hats and whether or not parents thought childless people were selfish just because they were childless. I showed an example of a childless person actually being selfish in a situation about children that had nothing to do with having children of his own or not.

      1. My last paragraph has some missing words in it, and is sort of garbled. To explain:

        When my comment first appeared, it was #169, and it was in the close vicinity of a conversation about the assumed selfishness of childless people (started by a quip about hipsters and hats), and who was selfish for wanting/not wanting children. My anecdote was of a childless person being selfish about children in a way that had nothing to do with reproduction, and it had more context when it wasn’t #222. That is why I included the detail of the neighbor being childless, and brought it up in the first place.

  38. How dare he expect peace and quiet in his own home? God, some people in your condo complex are just so selfish.

    This is just silly, Steve. Condo and apartment living means getting used to being in close quarters with one’s neighbors on a daily basis and all that comes along with it. Expecting to have uninterrupted quiet and tranquility in the middle of the day as though one was the only person around for miles when living in a condo is ridiculous. When we lived in a condo we lived with a lot of daily noise of living life from our neighbors and they did as well, that’s just the way it is. If you don’t want to live close enough to your neighbors that you can hear them or ever be bothered by them, then you need to move to somewhere much more rural.

  39. This is just silly, Steve. Condo and apartment living means getting used to being in close quarters with one’s neighbors on a daily basis and all that comes along with it. Expecting to have uninterrupted quiet and tranquility in the middle of the day as though one was the only person around for miles when living in a condo is ridiculous. When we lived in a condo we lived with a lot of daily noise of living life from our neighbors and they did as well, that’s just the way it is. If you don’t want to live close enough to your neighbors that you can hear them or ever be bothered by them, then you need to move to somewhere much more rural.

    Read Karen’s original comment. All the neighbor wanted was consideration on this one day, not uninterrupted quiet and tranquility in the middle of the day.

    1. Once, when I was hugely pregnant and desperately wanted a nap, but the construction workers who were doing some demo work illegally, –as in they were making hella amounts of noise with power tools before 9 am–refused to working even when I screamed at them to shut the fuck up. I would have waddled down there to complain directly, but how the buildings were positioned in relation to one another made it impossible to figure out which one it was.

      Children–not the only noisy ones outside, and certainly not the most egregious violators.

    2. Read Karen’s original comment. All the neighbor wanted was consideration on this one day, not uninterrupted quiet and tranquility in the middle of the day.

      Maybe, if he had come to her in advance and asked her to keep the kids quiet for this one occasion. Maybe. This is why being a good neighbor, and a good person in general is a good idea. That way the OP may have been more inclined towards sympathy and going out of her way, and maybe studying guy would have thought things through a bit better.

      Heaven knows I put up a lot of stuff from my neighbors because that’s what life’s about. Like I said, getting annoyed with your neighbors for every day sorts of noises is silly, and I would say the same thing if the OP had complained about her neighbors loudish music in the middle of the day or whatever as well.

    3. So, I am really trying to understand your position on this, Steve. Do you think the children should have gone inside because the neighbor told them to? Or was it (your perception of) Karen’s attitude toward her neighbor that has raised your objection?

      1. Actually, it was the apparent lack of give and take on either side that struck me. Based on the initial description I thought both parties were being equally stubborn, after Karen’s clarification, I get how the neighbor was a bit out of line. Nevertheless, I thought blaming this on her neighbor being ‘childless’ was completely unfair, as it had nothing to do with that. Had the neighbor been a father of 10, his behavior would have been just as bad and there is nothing to say childless people are more prone to that behavior. Why does the number of children the neighbor has bear any relevance to the incident?

    4. IMO, the neighbor who tried to order Karen’s kids back into the building was way out of line for the following reasons:

      1. As an adult, he had the alternative option to go to the library.

      2. Considering this took place on a sunday afternoon around a multi-family building, the neighbor should have realized that there will be active children around the building. If he had a problem with this, he shouldn’t have moved into a building/area with families…or a apartment type building in the first place. He’s not too different from the jerks who move into an area known for live musical venues…and then complain that they’re all too noisy. 🙄

      3. He had no authority whatsoever to order the kids back into the building. Acting like a petty tyrant tends to not only be counterproductive…but also a highly entitled attitude.

      4. IME, most cops in the NYC area if called by someone like this would regard him as a nuisance caller who’s wasting their time and considering the time and day…not be pleased that they are being used as a means by a possible crank to harass a neighboring family with young kids living a normal life at an appropriate time.

      When a neighbor in an previous NYC apartment called the cops for something at a day/time when kids are normally active and about, those cops actually read him the riot act once they found what the whole situation was about. The cops also made it clear that in NYC, one is only under noise violations if the excessive noise continues past 11 pm on weekday nights. Calling/feeling entitled to complain about noise on any afternoon doesn’t constitute a noise violation as far as they…or most NYC cops are concerned.

  40. I live in an apartment complex and while I do get annoyed by the noise the kids make sometimes, most of the time it is normal kid noise, in the middle of the day or early evening. My apartment also overlooks the community playground and basketball court, so there you go. Kids playing and making reasonable, outside kid noise? Sure it can be annoying, especially if you are sensitive to high-pitched screaming (my neighbor kids LOVE THIS) or you are trying to study, but telling kids they can’t play outside or can’t make any noise outside? Downright silly. At this very moment one of my neighbors is having band practice, and I promise you it is not one of the little kids.

    1. One of my neighbors routinely smokes up and fills the apartment hallway that I have to walk through with the scent of burning marijuana, and sometimes it even gets into my apartment, and I loathe that smell. HOW DARE HE? Well, he dares because he gets to smoke in his own apartment. And I put up with the smell because that’s part of living in an apartment with other people.

        1. I need to try this. I have issues with the neighbors smoking as well, and it is actually against the rules (and the local laws) for them to smoke in the apartments or the hallways. Since I have asthma and lung blebs it’s not just gross but a health risk, so I get pretty pissed about it but I don’t wanna start a fight and end up on the news 🙁

      1. One of my neighbors routinely smokes up and fills the apartment hallway that I have to walk through with the scent of burning marijuana, and sometimes it even gets into my apartment, and I loathe that smell. HOW DARE HE? Well, he dares because he gets to smoke in his own apartment. And I put up with the smell because that’s part of living in an apartment with other people.

        Well, this is an occasion where the nice approach suggested by Kristen @236 would work ideally. You could convince the neighbors to get a vaporizer instead of smoking joints or bongs or whatever (probably joints if they’re stinking out the place) which will not only prevent that acrid burning smell that you so hate, it will provide them with a healthier more economical way of consuming cannabis. WIn-win!

        When I make certain dishes, the entire hallway of my 5 story apartment building smells of whatever I’m cooking. When my wife walks in and says she smelled the meal when she walked in the door (we live on the third floor,) even though she will say it smells lovely, I immediately feel guilty that I’m inflicting my personal odors on others. Perhaps because when I was a kid in Forest Hills, one of the women in our apartment used to cook with onions every day, and while onions are perfectly normal alliums, they to this day make me nauseous.

        1. Alas, my nose is not sensitive enough for me to figure out which one of my neighbors it is. But it’s OK; it’s just a thing I put up with.

        2. When I was growing up, the halls of every apartment building we ever visited seemed to smell of pot roast or something very similar. A smell I now associate with elderly New York Jews.

      2. I’m so thankful the apartments down here have outside walkways and no indoor hallways. Your front door opens to the outside, not into an indoor hallway. No dealing with smells. Certain smells trigger migraines for me faster than you can spit. When I lived in an apartment, many of my neighbors ate Menudo every Sunday. The smell of that makes me sick as a dog. I would have had to move.

    2. Exactly. It is part of living in a community.

      I live in a detached house with a decent sized yard (for the city) in a middle class neighborhood within walking distance of the local university campus, around the corner from a low-income housing complex, and across the street from an elementary school. People make noise outside and that’s just part of life. The college students behind me sometimes have loud parties until 3-4 am on a Thursday night when I have to teach an early class on Friday morning and my kids have to go to school (this is particularly an issue around April/May when the semester is ending and the weather is getting warmer). Sometimes kids will be on the playground yelling and making all sorts of noise super early on a weekend morning. Or on a Saturday afternoon and I’m just trying to write my goddamned dissertation already and why won’t people just shut up. I’ve been woken up by people having fights with their SO in the middle of the night and also by my teenage neighbor getting caught sneaking her boyfriend out of the house at 2am.

      Sure, people need to be considerate and parents sometimes need to teach their kids manners and quiet voices and all that, but part of living in a neighborhood, whether that neighborhood is an apartment building or condo complex or just a middle class neighborhood with sidewalks and houses, is getting used to sharing space and being around other people living their lives the same way you are. If that is going to be a problem, then you (general you) need to move someplace far away from everybody else and be by yourself.

  41. hm, possibly kicking a hornets nest with this one but, anybody notice the reactions given when parents take their kids to the bathroom? This also seems to be VERY gendered, especially for the adults. Obviously I have no idea what the perspective of non cis dudes is on this but I know as a little kid, going to the bathroom with mom was NOT OK. Even as a toddler I remember the looks I would get from the other ladies when mom would have to stop somebody from cutting in front of us to use a stall.

    On the other hand I also remember as a got older being tasked with walking my baby cousins and later nieces to the restroom and oh LORD the angry and some times vocal reactions I would get from adult women when they saw me walking them into the men’s room. I also very quickly learned that these reactions paled in comparison to what would happen if I tried to take them into the ladies’s restroom. On the other hand I see moms take their little boys into the men’s room all the time and nobody bats an eye (at least from what I’ve seen, but I’m not a mom so, who knows)

    Anybody else wanna weigh in on this one?

    1. Well, I have two boys and they never went into a men’s room, except with dad, until they were old enough to go in on their own. They went into the women’s room with me.
      Where I have seen this being an issue is locker rooms. If you’re taking an opposite-sex kid swimming, your only options at our YWCA, once they’re older than about six, are the two “family” changing rooms (little self-contained units with toilet, shower, etc.). They fill up fast. You could send them into the men’s locker room alone, but if they’re prone to distraction they’ll take forever to get changed and showered without supervision..

  42. Just checked in and I hope my comment did not open this floodgate of childless vs childed! My point was that those without are usually happy to be around kids if they have reached a point where they can mostly be cool to be around in a given social space. Even if you have no kids you once were one, we all know development, right? So why do we fight over this? My last point in the post was simple, “it takes a village” is not something anyone can count on being believed by parents. If you correct a kid in a restaurant, a grocery or etc most of the time you will have an angry parent in your face no matter how carefully you tried to do it. In my mind, this is the biggest issue when I read through these comments I see parents saying that they hate those evil looks, the judgement looks or whatever they they are interpreting from ppl around them. OTH the ppl who are asking that parents take responsibility for their kids behavior are in general saying they understand it’s tough when they are young. But, they are also saying we cannot correct the kid, we can’t ask the parent to correct, we can’t do anything except accept that we have to leave to get away from the screams or whatever unacceptable behavior is happening. I hope this post isn’t fanning flames, I’m in the middle of a deliverable so it’s probably not well said

    1. Where is this land where nobody feels free to comment on anyone else’s kids? One of the things you learn very fast as a parent – especially if you’re of the female variety of parent – is that from the second you start to show pregnancy/carry a baby around until they’re taller than you, everybody feels free to tell you exactly what you’re doing wrong and how your kids should be acting and what they should be wearing.

      Not to mention that a lot of people seem to feel that it’s proper to “correct” children not for, say, running into people or opening all the ketchup packets, but for doing anything they dislike – such as, in the case of people who don’t like children, making the slightest sound.

    2. Even if you have no kids you once were one, we all know development, right? So why do we fight over this?

      I don’t get this either. Instead of any sort of sympathy for kids, because you were also once one and can remember what it was like, so much of the kid criticism sounds like variations on the “get offa my lawn, you stupid kids” and “back when I was a kid, we walked five miles uphill to and from school” bits.

      That it’s coming from otherwise open minded and progressive people just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

      1. I don’t get this either. Instead of any sort of sympathy for kids, because you were also once one and can remember what it was like, so much of the kid criticism sounds like variations on the “get offa my lawn, you stupid kids” and “back when I was a kid, we walked five miles uphill to and from school” bits.

        I do not really get this defensiveness.

        I have admittedly not bothered to read all 276 comments on this thread, but who specifically here are you arguing against?
        Who here would you say have this attitude of not tolerating kids anywhere?

        For some reason, internet threads about parenthood and kids seems to be as hopeless as the ones about atheism vs religion. A lot of sound and fury, but very little productive discussion.

        1. If you haven’t bothered to read the comments on this thread – and it’s obvious you haven’t – then why do you think you have a valid opinion on what the discussion is about?

        2. I have read all the damn comments, and it was a waste of time. But I still question, who is saying “I walked uphill both ways!” on this thread? Some people are saying that many parents parent shittily, but no one is saying they were perfect as a child or that their parents were perfect.

          I think people have just started making crap up out of whole cloth based on their favorite shoulder chip, and not based on the flow of the discussion at all.

        3. @mythago: I said I have not read all of them. I have read most of them.

          But perhaps there were some comments you think justifies the above rhetoric that you would like to point out?

        4. Who here would you say have this attitude of not tolerating kids anywhere?

          Your right, Amanda and Steve and some others were actually totes supportive and embracing of children in public and cutting them and their parents some slack. Oh, wait, except they haven’t been. You admit you haven’t even read all of the comments here, yet you’re so sure I’m off base here?

          For some reason, internet threads about parenthood and kids seems to be as hopeless as the ones about atheism vs religion. A lot of sound and fury, but very little productive discussion.

          I actually agree with you pretty much on this, and that’s much of the point I’ve made, repeatedly. Instead of having productive and reasonable discussion about societal views of children, their parents, and especially their mothers, we get a whole lot of rotten kid anecdotes.

          U.S. society has a fuckton of messed up, sexist views of women and mothering, as well as of children. The way that women and their children are marginalized on a daily basis here in this country is staggering. Yet instead of getting into those issues and deconstructing them and trying to come up with solutions, we get all bogged down in comparing notes on who has the worst rotten kid/overentitled mother/ crappy stroller incident stories instead.

          It’s ridiculous.

        5. Your right, Amanda and Steve and some others were actually totes supportive and embracing of children in public and cutting them and their parents some slack. Oh, wait, except they haven’t been.

          The question was whether they were advocating that children should never be in public. You’re answering a different question here, one that was not in fact posed.

          Not being “totes supportive” is not the same as not being at all supportive, nor is it the same as advocating for a ban on kids in public spaces. Let’s not pretend that it is.

        6. Is the bar now set to whether or not kids should be banned entirely from public spaces? I read not tolerating them to be more about not wanting them around, or maybe finding their presence in general to be annoying, but banning them outright?

          And this still doesn’t address my bigger point. Specifically, that while we sit around and bicker about whether or not people are entitled to roll their eyes at kids in public we are doing nothing to deconstruct the myriad ways that sexism and a whole lot of other isms are used to marginalize and discriminate against women and children every day in the U.S.

          But really, let’s go round and after round ad nauseum about badly behaved kids and their parents. That’s a whole lot more entertaining anyway, right?

      2. “back when I was a kid, we walked five miles uphill to and from school”

        “And we liked it! Thank you, kind parents, we said, for providing us with such healthy exercise as well as education! Except we said it very quietly so as not to disturb anybody.”

  43. Personally, I want to have my tax dollars and elected officials do things which will help improve the lives of all the people who will be born after my generation. I respect kids’ right to be in public. I respect the fact that some people choose to breed while I choose to be child-free.

    However, it irritates the SHIT out of me when I go to what I reasonably assume are adult-only places/events (i.e. bars, wine tastings, R rated movies, sex shops) and have to witness small children scurrying around everywhere. Honestly, your common sense should tell you that those places are not, and never will be, child friendly (my local sex shop actually had to post a “no children allowed” sign because too many parents show up there with toddlers).

    And another thing: these past few years have hosted a giant stroller fad. It’s stressful enough taking public buses and trains to work eac
    h morning without having to squeeze around a dozen four foot wide strollers…all of which are fully open and in the narrow aisles.

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