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What Is a “Living Wage”?

While we’re thinking about issues of social justice today in particular, this article about the living wage is a must-read. Economic justice is crucial in this struggle.

Workers in some of Baltimore’s homeless shelters and soup kitchens had noticed something new and troubling about many of the visitors coming in for meals and shelter: they happened to have full-time jobs.

Employees at places like Wal-Mart are encouraged to go on public assistance to make up for the fact that their employer doesn’t pay them enough to live, and doesn’t offer proper healthcare or other benefits. The working poor in America are paid as low as $5.15 an hour, even in places like New York City where the cost of living is incredibly high.

The immediate goal for living-wage strategists is to put initiatives on the ballots in several swing states this year. If their reckoning is correct, the laws should effect a financial gain for low-income workers and boost turnout for candidates who campaign for higher wages. In Florida, a ballot initiative to raise the state’s minimum wage by a dollar, to $6.15, won 71 percent of the vote in 2004, a blowout that surprised even people like Kern, who spent several weeks in Miami working on the measure. “We would like it to become a fact of political life,” Kern says, “where every year the other side has to contend with a minimum-wage law in some state.” Though victories like the one in Florida may have done little to help the Kerry-Edwards ticket – George Bush won 52 percent of the state’s vote – Kern and some in the Democratic establishment have come to believe that the left, after years of electoral frustration, has finally found its ultimate moral-values issue. “This is what moves people to the polls now,” Kern insists. “This is our gay marriage.”

Well, it would be nice if gay marriage was “our gay marriage,” because those who would exclude an entire class of people from legally marrying don’t really seem like they’re on the side of the angels, but I see her point. This issue has the power to mobilize the working class, especially in red states where incomes are often lower. And it absolutely is a moral issue — a whole lot more of one than, say, preventing women from getting their prescriptions at a pharmacy.

And before anyone jumps in with, “But raising the minimum wage will hurt the economy and cause job loss!,” check this out:

In simplest terms, most economists accepted that when government forces businesses to pay higher wages, businesses, in turn ,hire fewer employees. It is a powerful argument against the minimum wage, since it suggests that private businesses as a group, along with teenagers and low-wage employees, will be penalized by a mandatory raise.

The tenor of this debate began to change in the mid-1990’s following some work done by two Princeton economists, David Card (now at the University of California at Berkeley) and Alan B. Krueger. In 1992, New Jersey increased the state minimum wage to $5.05 an hour (applicable to both the public and private sectors), which gave the two young professors an opportunity to study the comparative effects of that raise on fast-food restaurants and low-wage employment in New Jersey and Pennsylvania, where the minimum wage remained at the federal level of $4.25 an hour. Card and Krueger agreed that the hypothesis that a rise in wages would destroy jobs was “one of the clearest and most widely appreciated in the field of economics.” Both told me they believed, at the start, that their work would reinforce that hypothesis. But in 1995, and again in 2000, the two academics effectively shredded the conventional wisdom. Their data demonstrated that a modest increase in wages did not appear to cause any significant harm to employment; in some cases, a rise in the minimum wage even resulted in a slight increase in employment.

And economics aside, we shouldn’t forget that our current minimum wage leaves even full-time workers practically destitute. Raising it, even slightly, can be a huge help.

One evening in Santa Fe, I sat down with some of the people Wal-Mart is worried about. Like Louis Alvarez, a 58-year-old cafeteria worker in the Santa Fe schools who for many years helped prepare daily meals for 700 children. For that he was paid $6.85 an hour and brought home $203 every two weeks. He had no disposable income – indeed, he wasn’t sure what I meant by disposable income; he barely had money for rent. Statistically speaking, he was far below the poverty line, which for a family of two is about $12,800 a year. For Alvarez, an increase in the minimum wage meant he would be able to afford to go to flea markets, he said.

I also met with Ashley Gutierrez, 20, and Adelina Reyes, 19, who have low-paying customer-service and restaurant jobs. By most estimates, 35 percent of those who make $7 an hour or less in the U.S. are teenagers. A few months ago, Reyes told me, she was spending 86 hours every two weeks at two minimum-wage jobs to pay for her car and to pay for college. Gutierrez, also in school, was working 20 hours a week at Blockbuster video for the minimum wage. People like Alvarez and Gutierrez and Reyes were the ones who spurred two city councilors in Santa Fe, Frank Montaño and Jimmie Martinez, to introduce the living-wage ordinance. “Our schools here don’t do so well,” Montaño told me, explaining that he believed higher-wage jobs would let parents, who might otherwise have to work a second job, spend more time with their children. (At the same time working teenagers like Gutierrez would have more time with their parents.) For Santa Fe residents who were living five or six to a room in two-bedroom adobes, Montaño said he hoped a higher minimum wage might put having their own places to live at least within the realm of possibility.

It’s also interesting to see the coalitions that the economic justice issue has built.

The Rev. Jerome Martinez, the city’s influential monsignor, began to throw his support behind the living-wage ordinance. When I met with him in his parish, in a tidy, paneled office near the imposing 18th-century church that looks over the city plaza, Martinez traced for me the moral justification for a living wage back to the encyclicals of Popes Leo XIII and Pius XI and John Paul II, in which the pontiffs warned against the excesses of capitalism. “The church’s position on social justice is long established,” Father Jerome said. “I think unfortunately it’s one of our best-kept secrets.”

I asked if it had been a difficult decision to support the wage law. He smiled slightly. “It was a no-brainer,” he said. “You know, I am not by nature a political person. I have gotten a lot of grief from some people, business owners, who say, ‘Father, why don’t you stick to religion?’ Well, pardon me – this is religion. The scripture is full of matters of justice. How can you worship a God that you do not see and then oppress the workers that you do see?”

Read the whole thing.


49 thoughts on What Is a “Living Wage”?

  1. Modest increments to the minimum wage don’t have a big negative economic impact, true, particularly in places where the legal wage is lagging the market minimum wage. It’s a big jump from there to the whole “living wage” notion. Modest increments to the minimum wage don’t get you to a lower-middle-class existence.

    Bottom line, there aren’t any policy tricks that bring people with marginal economic product up to the living standard that is reasonable to expect for people with substantial economic product. There are some policies that make life more livable for people with marginal economic product; things like public libraries, public transit, parks, free schooling, and the like. Those are generally good things because they contribute to a civil society that is safe and enjoyable to live in. But those people are still going to be poor at the end of the day, because the work they are able to do isn’t worth very much to anyone.

    The key to improving the situation of the working poor is to increase the value of the work they are able to do, rather than trying to figure out ways to get them paid more than they’re worth in the free market.

  2. Employees at places like Wal-Mart are encouraged to go on public assistance to make up for the fact that their employer doesn’t pay them enough to live, and doesn’t offer proper healthcare or other benefits.

    Obviously, Wal-mart DOES pay them enough to live since they’re not dead. What you meant to say is that Wal-mart doesn’t pay them enough to live comfortably.

    Also, there is no reasonable expectation that an employer should purchase you a doctor or a car or a house. They may choose to do so as an enticement, but such largesse is not tantamount to an obligation. You are not entitled to these things simply because your mother failed to abort you.

  3. Kewl…. let’s just give even more incentive to barely making ends meet small businesses to join the underground economy.

    That’s the ticket!

  4. But those people are still going to be poor at the end of the day, because the work they are able to do isn’t worth very much to anyone.

    Exactly, and the worth of their work is bounded by a surplus of labor market competition on one side and substitution effect on the other.

  5. Exactly, and the worth of their work is bounded by a surplus of labor market competition on one side and substitution effect on the other.

    Which to me means, if you’re a liberal and someone who understands how economies work, you favor basically shutting down immigration. The decrease in the competitiveness of the labor market will in effect boost the wages of the lowest earners, and the costs (decreased economic growth in the future) aren’t something that liberals generally care about.

    I happen to care more about economic growth, so that’s a non-starter for me, but I don’t get why it isn’t liberals leading the charge to reduce immigration.

  6. I don’t get why it isn’t liberals leading the charge to reduce immigration.

    The cognitive dissonance of many liberal position must be overwhelming. The desire to be multicultural means toleration of, and support for, illegal immigrants, (viz.lobbying for in-state tuition) which works against the liberal constituency of organized labor and the liberal goal of aiding the black community, where we now see 25% of Black males 15-64, who are not homeless or in prison, are idle for a year or longer.

    The Conservative positions, though they have some very unpleasant aspects, are much more highly correlated.

    and the costs (decreased economic growth in the future) aren’t something that liberals generally care about.

    But economic conservatives should be worried about the economic drag that unfettered unskilled immigration causes:

    In contrast, the NRC [National Research Council] found that because of their lower incomes and resulting lower tax payments coupled with their heavy use of public services, less-educated immigrants use significantly more in services than they pay in taxes. The NRC estimates indicated that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime.

    Semi-skilled and skilled immigrants are a boon to our economy. Unskilled immigrants are simply a human mechanism to generate unearned income transfers from taxpayers to employee, employer, and customer.

  7. Also, there is no reasonable expectation that an employer should purchase you a doctor or a car or a house. They may choose to do so as an enticement, but such largesse is not tantamount to an obligation. You are not entitled to these things simply because your mother failed to abort you.

    Well, you’re free to hold that position. I disagree; a just society doesn’t make a person’s survival dependant on their ability to perform work that other people decide to value.

    Nobody’s saying that working at WalMart should pay enough to buy a house and fill it with flat-screens. But nobody who has a full-time job should be placed in the position of choosing two out of three: the rent, food, or health insurance, as though the necessities of survival were some kind of Chinese menu. Especially not if our sole assistance to the poor is going to be “get a job, you lazy slob.” If the jobs don’t pay more than welfare, what does it matter if they work or not?

  8. This is not at all related to your blog post. I came across your blog by way of a comment about Wolf Park on One Good Thing. I am amazed that there are liberal feminist bloggers in Battleground! I’m one of the few liberals in Monticello, so it’s good to know I’m not alone in this area of the world! And I also have degree in English Education.

  9. I disagree; a just society doesn’t make a person’s survival dependant on their ability to perform work that other people decide to value.

    Does a just society make a person’s survival dependant on other peoples ability to perform work that still other people decide to value?

  10. But nobody who has a full-time job should be placed in the position of choosing two out of three: the rent, food, or health insurance

    If the economic output of that person’s full-time job is not sufficient to provide those things, then whose output do you propose taking?

    And why limit your redistributive largesse to people with a full-time job? Surely there are worthy individuals who would like to work full-time, but whose skills have not made them attractive enough to employers for that to happen. Shouldn’t those people, too, be allowed to eat, and live, and see a doctor?

    And what of those who cannot or will not work? Will you let them starve in the street?

    Saying that people shouldn’t have to choose between allocations of resources – with the benefits and consequences of those choices – is essentially saying that resources should be free, that soup should fall from the sky. The necessities of survival ARE a Chinese menu – you get what you pay for. Someone pays for everything.

  11. Well, you’re free to hold that position. I disagree; a just society doesn’t make a person’s survival dependant on their ability to perform work that other people decide to value.

    Of course not. Those people are free to start their own businesses. No one has to work for someone else. They can take the initiative to care for themselves and be free of the need to perform work that other people decide to value. In fact the government encourages this route by providing many programs for people to start small businesses.

    If you aren’t willing to work for someone else and aren’t willing to work for yourself, you are a parasite feeding off of other people. Sure a just society should take care of those unable to take care of themselves (the handicap for example) but at the end of the day they are still parasites and shouldn’t be romanticized.

    I’m a conservative but I’m more than willing to support job training, education on how to form your own business, etc. I’d be more than willing to pay more taxes to support these kinds of programs. They are investments in the future of society. Bettering yourself does take effort and sacrifice but the benefits are lasting.

  12. It takes money to start up a small business. As a small business owner myself, I have to note that you can’t just decide to start one one day and the next day be making enough to live on. It takes a lot of time and effort and money- exactly the stuff a guy making 6 bucks an hour doesn’t have- time or money.

  13. I don’t approve of state action of this sort, coming from a generally left-libertarian perspective, but let’s not go crazy with hyperbole. Whether or not minimum wage workers are currently being paid their marginal product is hardly self-evident; the Krueger & Card studies should make us doubt it. It may be true that their marginal product is below the ‘living wage’ level set by these proposals; experiments of this sort will help us learn.

    TangoMan’s comment about labor market competition is important in reminding us that we should expect wages to be based not simply on marginal product but also on the various rigidities in the relevant labor market. It’s not unreasonable to think that Wal-mart, for example, has some leverage as a buyer of labor. And it’s not an -absurd- position to take that empirical observation and think that marginal product, but not differentials in bargaining leverage, ought to determine one’s remuneration.

    But even if you ignore bargaining power questions–and we really do have reason to think bargaining power makes a difference in wage-setting–even if so, keep in mind that marginal product is based on subjective value, which in turn is relative to initial distributions. So talking about it as some sort of neutral standard, immune to criticism, is deceptive. The marginal product of those who produce luxury goods may vary quite a bit if you hold institutions constant but change initial endowments.

    None of which really adds up to anything but a vague discomfort with the certainty with which people pronounce on complicated things.

  14. Oh, honeybuns. One of the reasons that Wal-Mart makes a profit is that it doesn’t pay its workers enough to live on, or it doesn’t pay them enough hours to qualify for their benefits.

    Maryland isn’t the first state who’s raised the issue of Wal-Mart leaning on the state welfare system to support their workers in order for them to have a semblance of a living wage. There’s a reason Wal-Mart hasn’t opened in NYC, even though they’re desperate to — every time they try, the Giant Rat makes an appearance.

    Wal-Mart closed stores in Quebec rather than accede to the right-to-work laws there. I know Connecticut has raised the issue of how much Wal-Mart drains the public coffers yet remains one of the more profitable businesses in the state.

    (And don’t be surprised if the next state to pull a Maryland is Connecticut, since the AG is Elliot Spitzer Lite, and eager to exploit his liberal-and-hot image.)

    Also? I made $7 an hour about 15 years ago and wondered then how someone might raise a family on that.

  15. It’s interesting to compare/contrast the personel policies of a company like Costco versus that of the retail giant, Wal-Mart. If I remember correctly, Costco starts some of their employees out around $17/hour. Wal-Mart offers about $6-$7, depending on the job. The boys on Wall Street give Costco a hard time because they could reap much larger profits if they paid their employees less. But Costco knows the value of career employees, so they pay enough to keep their people. $6/hour is like a “revolving door” wage when it comes to employee retention. After all, if you have a Social Security card, you can do better than that.

    In a perfect world, it would be nice if more companies followed their lead. Maybe if these companies could shave a few million off their annual profits so Joe Average could squeeze by, we might all be better off. 3/4 of the U.S. economy is built upon “consumer” spending, after all. The problem is that these corporations are publicly owned. Stock owners don’t want to see the guy in drive-thru getting paid $12/hour when their portfolio takes a hit.

  16. None of which really adds up to anything but a vague discomfort with the certainty with which people pronounce on complicated things.

    Bastards! Let’s get them. (Ed: he was talking about you, idiot.)

    Well, I can’t argue with your well-phrased statements, but I can tell you that I looked at your picture at NYU and you could be my twin brother, if I shaved. That should make you quail in fear! (Looking like me, not me shaving.)

  17. I’m wondering in this whole debate about the teenagers whose parents are well-to-do, etc. Why do they need a “living wage”? And how to filter them out?

    Although I agree that the moral choice is for society to help those who are struggling financially, I think it’s better to simply provide free or very reduced cost medical care, food stamps, college subsidies, etc. that can be aquired even when one has a job. Admittedly, these are a pain because of bureaucracy (sp?), but better than raising the minimum wage too high, IMHO.
    Also, things like the reverse income tax are very helpful (thus taking out of the equation the rich kid with his lifeguard job).

    I agree with one of the posters above who mentions the unintended effect of making small businesses go underground (or out of business altogether). It doesn’t really help low-income people if they lose their jobs because the small business they work for closes. While it may be an increase in employment when everyone (including the former small business owner) is working at Walmart, it’s probably not desireable.

  18. I made $7 an hour about 15 years ago and wondered then how someone might raise a family on that.

    Shopping at Wal-Mart helps.

  19. I agree that the current minimum wage of $5.15/hour in NYC sucks and is impossible to live on. It should be raised at least a couple dollars, if not more. The minimum wage in Madison, WI is higher than NYC’s, which is silly considering that the cost of living in Madison is less than half what it is here.

    The problem with expanding all these government social services (healthcare, welfare, public childcare, food stamps, etc) to more and more people, including those working full time, is that it seems that it would require even higher taxes, and thus lower incomes and more expensive property, for those who have full-time jobs.

    Whenever we compare to countries in Europe, we need to remember that a lot of those countries have the same population as NYC alone. A full-scale welfare state for all of NY might work fine, but for 300 million people, it would require some fairly drastic economic changes, seeing as people in small Scandinavian countries already pay 60% taxes on their wages.

    Thus, people could all be making $10/hour, but if it’s taxed down to $4/hour instead of $7, is that really an improvement. You can afford even less to raise a family on that.

    Now…I’m not an economist, mind. So if anyone else knows of how these programs could go through without reducing further the income of working families, please shout. I do know that in the European countries, they compensate for the taxes by paying higher salaries; but again, we’re talking 10 million people (if that). I do know people there aren’t becoming poor due to taxes, so there must be a way.

  20. Interesting discussion. I was an economics major and thankfully, I had one econ professor who thought the whole econ modelling thing was BS. For him, “laissez faire” (letting human nature take its course for the betterment of the economy as a whole, basically) was more accurately called “the lazy fairy.” As he used to put it, under classic economic theory, “both rich and poor are free to sail their yachts in the harbor.”

    I’m not saying that it’s all BS — it’s pretty clear that, all things being equal, people will buy lower-priced goods. But all things are never equal. There may be some bargaining power among the have-nots, but not equal bargaining power. There may be some knowledge, but not the perfect knowledge that classic theory assumes.

    The only reason people who work at Wal-Mart aren’t dead (as one person put it) is because they get assistance elsewhere. And that “elsewhere” has to come from somewhere. For many workers, it comes from welfare assistance. So unless you’re prepared to actually let the working poor starve to death, then the question becomes this: in what form do you want to pay for it? Through welfare? Through improved education so these folks can get better jobs? Through higher prices at Walmart? Or through lower salaries for Walmart execs and lower profits for its shareholders?

  21. Strangely enough this is one area where Liberals (social/economic)of all sorts can agree – except on names. Everybody should receive a citizenship allowance/basic income/negative income tax, Personal (all?) exemptions in the tax code abolished and then all subsequent income taxed (whether or not progressively)

    It is simple redistribution – so the political argument turns into one about how much redistribution to have. A living wage is then moot – your basic income allows enough to live and then you earn everything else yourself (with arguments in their proper place as to what the minimum should be – that is if society deems a minimum then society pays and not companies). This can co-exist with a minimum wage (taxed) if that is what is wanted – though the strenght of arguments against it are likely to be stronger.

    CORI (and Fr Sean Healy – uncle of Crooked Timber’s Kieran) in Ireland are strongly in favour of this meansure, but Milton Friedman proposed something similar and the FT commentator Samuel Brittan regularly suggests it as a soloution providing welfare. It is what underlies EITC. though this is less than perfect at achieving its ends – and implementation of any kind of Basic Income/Negative Income tax is extremely difficult for all kinds of reasons. However there is nothing wrong with simply giving people money and then letting them get on with living and working as they see fit and not expecting the minimum wage to magicly allow everybody to be able to live well.

  22. I’m wondering in this whole debate about the teenagers whose
    parents are well-to-do, etc. Why do they need a “living
    wage”? And how to filter them out?

    In BC, there are two levels of minimum wage: a $6/h “training wage”, for first-time workers who have worked less than 500 hours, total, in their lives; and an $8/h regular minimum wage. It’s come under a fair bit of fire from the left side of the aisle ’round these parts, and it’s certainly not without its issues, but to me it seems to strike a reasonable balance between adults being paid living wages and small businesses being able to afford their employees.

  23. In my hometown, those low-wage jobs that teenagers typically take were all eaten up by the time I graduated college, by displaced manufacturing workers and others punted into the service economy. And as the story suggests, even if you are a teenager, you just shouldn’t have to work 43 hours a week in two jobs to go to college.

    I’m not an economic thinker, but I’m not one to trust the market to solve all these problems by itself. Even the market “knows” it can’t solve everything; these things are called market failures for a reason. Health care is the biggest one. I would be quite willing to give up in tax form what I pay now for my crap health insurance if it meant I and everyone else in the country could get decent health care through the government. In my mind, one of the biggest failures of the current administration was the bankruptcy bill, which passed months after a Harvard study concluded that more than half of bankruptcies in the US come as a result of medical expenses, and most of those folks *had* health insurance.

  24. Maryland just made businesses with over 10K employees put more money toward health care or pay a lump sum each year toward state social programs offering health care to their employees. Of course Wal-Mart is the only business in MD that this new law targets but hell, they aren’t doing it themselves.

  25. I should also note that this law will not take effect immediately, as no law does, but it’s a step in the right direction at least.

  26. Methinks it’s tough to argue that the government hasn’t fallen behind when it comes to wages.

    Natural gas is up. Electricity is up. College tuition is up. Health care is up. Gasoline is way up. Interest rates are up. And to place the proverbial cherry on top of this cake of shit, it’s more difficult than ever for Joe/Jane Average to file for bankruptcy.

    And minimum wage? Here is where I’d like to insert a link to a .wav file of our Republican legislators snoring.

    You can expect the Democrats to roll in the 2008 elections, like it or not.

  27. If the economic output of that person’s full-time job is not sufficient to provide those things, then whose output do you propose taking?

    Other people’s. Richer peoples. The people who would benefit, for instance, from having healthy, well-trained workers. The people who, generally, benefit far more from government services than they pay for.

    And why limit your redistributive largesse to people with a full-time job?

    Who said I was? The people under discussion have full-time jobs. People who don’t are irrelevant; that’s another discussion.

    Saying that people shouldn’t have to choose between allocations of resources – with the benefits and consequences of those choices – is essentially saying that resources should be free, that soup should fall from the sky.

    They should be. It’s idiotic to rely on a capitalist economy to provide a person with all the resources they absolutely need to live. It’s ridiculous, and it demostratably doesn’t work. Your labor shouldn’t be forced to conform to another person’s individual, subjective “value” in order for you to survive. TWhy should another person have that kind of life-or-death power over another adult? We used to call that “slavery.”

    Soup should fall from the sky, or the next best equivalent. That it doesn’t now is merely a technical problem. Trying to solve it with capitalism costs lives. We just need to invent the free lunch.

  28. Those people are free to start their own businesses. No one has to work for someone else. They can take the initiative to care for themselves and be free of the need to perform work that other people decide to value.

    Oh – so what you’re saying is, a small business doesn’t actually need any customers?

    Where on Earth did you get the idea that running a small business means you don’t have to perform work that other people value? How does that work on your planet?

  29. You can expect the Democrats to roll in the 2008 elections, like it or not.

    Ordinarily, yes – natural political cycle. With national security issues still in play, probably not. Iran isn’t going to get friendlier in two years.

    Even if I was a raving socialist, I wouldn’t trust today’s Democratic party to set up security for a barn dance in Amish country, never mind the whole country.

  30. Your labor shouldn’t be forced to conform to another person’s individual, subjective “value” in order for you to survive.

    Isn’t that what a minimum wage is?

    Soup should fall from the sky, or the next best equivalent. That it doesn’t now is merely a technical problem. Trying to solve it with capitalism costs lives. We just need to invent the free lunch

    Unbelievable. And I’ll bet you yuk it up with your buddies about those Intelligent Design fundie dumbasses, too, don’t you?

  31. Chet said:

    Well, you’re free to hold that position. I disagree; a just society doesn’t make a person’s survival dependant on their ability to perform work that other people decide to value.

    I said:

    Those people are free to start their own businesses. No one has to work for someone else. They can take the initiative to care for themselves and be free of the need to perform work that other people decide to value.

    Then Chet said:

    Where on Earth did you get the idea that running a small business means you don’t have to perform work that other people value? How does that work on your planet?

    If you aren’t willing to work for someone else or work for yourself – because both are dependent on providing someone else with something of value in exchange for something of value (money), why should society support you? In your world “a just society” would provide for everyone regardless of their willingness to take any responsibility for themselves. Even animals will go out and get food, find a dwelling, etc. All that takes work. Even marxism/communism requires you to work for your living.

  32. That is the nasty little truth about Marxism, Chet. From each according to his abilities means just that. You are signing a helluva lot over to the state just to cover your basic needs.

  33. Unbelievable.

    Think it through, genius. The Earth is an open system, and life is just chemistry; the calories that the human body needs to survive ultimately come from the sun. Nobody pays the sun to shine. That the energy of the sun is not immediately accessable to the human body is a technological problem, not an economic one. The sun is the ultimate source of the free lunch; we just haven’t figured out how to eat it aside from the inefficient process of turning it into plants and then animals, and then eating those. Trace back any human consumable and ultimately, you get to the sun.

    It’s just physics. It’s just an engineering problem. It sounds like magic but it’s not. Solar power driving nanotech assemblers turning wastes into food is one solution – and much more efficient than chloroplasts turning sunlight and gaseous carbon into sugars, and animals turning plant sugars into muscle.

    If you aren’t willing to work for someone else or work for yourself – because both are dependent on providing someone else with something of value in exchange for something of value (money), why should society support you?

    Why shouldn’t society support you? Why should your survival as an individual rely on another person deciding to value your labor? Why shoudn’t your own value of your time and effort be sufficient?

    Even animals will go out and get food, find a dwelling, etc.

    Animals work less than three hours a day. The vast majority of an animal’s life is spent either sleeping or in leisure/play activities.

    Look, take most people’s jobs. It’s actually pretty rare that any human being is engaged in work that actually benefits society as a whole. Video store clerk? Pizza delivery driver? Clerk at WalMart? Baseball player? Rock star? These are jobs of convienience or entertainment, not great works that benefit society.

    Most people don’t benefit society in the least and yet you have no problem with their continued survival, even though they’re no less of a parasite than a person drawing welfare. Is Paris Hilton any less of a societal parasite than a welfare mom? What does Paris Hilton provide to society?

    The idea that someone needs to “contribute” to a society that already has more than enough to provide for everyone is specious at best. Society has enough for everybody. Where’s the necessity in having everyone provide? Let the people who want more than the minimum – which is just about everyone – provide for the small minority who are satisifed with no more than the essentials. Seems perfectly fair to me.

    That is the nasty little truth about Marxism, Chet.

    I’m no Marxist. Nobody’s brought up Marxism but you. It’s not the state’s job to make toothbrushes and TVs. Capitalism is the perfect solution for determining the value of things nobody needs, like the internet, or jewelry, or cars, or whatever.

    But basic survival shouldn’t depend on convincing someone else that you deserve to live. Isn’t that the basis of individual liberty? Why should you have to justify your existence to someone else in order to live? It’s ridiculous to assert that one’s value of their own life isn’t sufficient to justify their right to live.

    I’m no communist. The free market is the perfect solution for determining the worth of things that have no inherent worth. But it’s stupid and indefensible to rely on the free market for survival; and it’s slavery to subject anyone to that reliance.

  34. Chet –

    Who builds and maintains the nanotech assemblers?

    Who shovels the shit into trucks and drives the trucks to the assembly plant?

    Why should your survival as an individual rely on another person deciding to value your labor?

    Why should your survival as an individual rely on another person’s technological genius in creating the machinery that keeps you alive?

    What about you makes you worthy to steal the product of someone else’s labor?

  35. Chet

    Is Paris Hilton any less of a societal parasite than a welfare mom?

    If Paris’ excreble public excesses don’t pick your pocket, what the heck do you care?

    You know what is missing from your utopian rant?

    volunterism IE that people, as neither slave nor master to each other VOLUNTARILY engage in trade …. that I have something of value YOU want, that you have something of value I want and we dicker until an agreement is reached or we go our own way until we find the deal we are satisfied with.

    You would circumvent that by way of the mugger. You want, you take and screw if the person you’re taking from objects.

    You don’t see a society of people engaged in voluntary commerce..you see a society of predators and prey and you’ve already let us know what group YOU want to be in.

    meshugga

  36. I understand physics, Chet, like measuring things. For instance measuring the value of an hours work. You can try to mandate that flipping burgers for an hour has the same value as building houses for an hour or fixing cars for an hour or whatever, but that is as ridiculous as trying to get your house to 70 degrees in the winter by recalibrating your thermometer. It doesn’t work that way. And your nanotech utopia sounds great, but refining sunlight into energy at the effiency levels you propose I’m guessing is quite aways off, And there is still no free lunch, that energy you are going to be harnessing is also what heats the planet and drives the weather systems. What effect is your plan going to have on that?

    And it is going to come as a crushing blow to your ego I am sure, but the patrons and employees of Wal Mart and the local pizzeria don’t give a flying rat’s ass whether you think it benefits society or not, they are living their lives and spending their money as they see fit and of their own free will.

  37. A couple of points.First,Robert Heinlein,famously pointed out,yhere’s no symbolic logical term for justice.It simply means,”What I like.”(I’m of course excluding the legal system,which is based on arbitrary postulates.)Chet,I’ve decided you must be a Liberal Arts major.Think through what it means if everyone gets to set their own wage.You’ve just described capitalism.People are fee to value their efforts however they want.What bothers you is other people are also allowwed to value one’s efforts.And Chet,there’s an awful lot of money that goes to people who won’t or can’t support themselvesThe hard part is differentiating between them.
    A nut,Wal Mart is supposedly cancelling a distribution ctr.scheduled to be built in Maryland.Loss of 800 jobs.
    Jill,your quoting of Card’s studies is kind of sad.They’ve been disparaged time and again.Two things:(1) Labor is a cost.When costs rise,volume purchased is reduced.(2)I’ve read Card’s studies and the rebuttals.If I source them for you will you read both?I’ve found too maany on the left simply quote a source to prove a point.It doesn’t seem to matter whether they’ve actually studied the issueWhat they want is a “study” they can quote.This is a pseudo intellectual pose
    Marksman,it’s statistically likely my IQ is higher than anyone else’s on this forum by 30-40 points(Upper 160’s) there are people I know whose brilliance makes me feel chastenedNone of them would dare to predict a Presidential election three years before it occurs.Either you’re channeling John von Neumann’s ghost or you’re over your head.(By the way,Jill,the textook von N co aauthored is a great way to learn econ.Another option,if you don’t want to read the above studies,Marina von Neumann whitman teaches at Ann ArborAsk her re’ Card’s work
    And one thing to ponder when you hear results you really,really like and sound too good to be true.”Reality,what a concept.”

  38. Fact is, no one lives on a minimum wage job and no adult can raise a family alone in most parts of the country on just a $7 or $8 dollar an hour job. Heck, on either coast, you’d have to earn at least $13/hr to keep a family of two children housed and fed.

    Health care, dental care, a safe vehicle (if one at all depending on state regulations on vehicles), child care and healthy meals are a luxury for a large number of people in this society and yet no one wants to deal with why deeper than some Randian diatribe.

    When one claims that an individual is paid what their labor is worth, is that why women are paid on average .65 to every dollar a man makes when doing the same work? Because when women do the job it has less value? I’m stumped here, I need some help I think.

    Do women all enter the doors of these establishments saying, “I want the lowest paying position you got!” or possibly, “Don’t pay me what he’s making, I’m not worthy!” or, “I’ll work just a dollar more than Maria over in laundry.”

    As often with these discussions, some understanding on the part of the participants is seriously lacking, due to:

    THe fact that many are men, thus lacking the first hand the wonderful of experience of growing up with patriarchy and knowing you are not the dominator, but the dominated, by social convention.

    The fact that most people who post here, unless they’ve been someone in poverty who had at one time or another, a limited skill set, but had a family to support, have no possible clue as to what poverty is.

    Thus the post from some who claim that Wal Mart needn’t support an individual’s ability to purchase a new house, etc.

    No one aruges that and to say such is either to engaging in extreme hyperbole or being stone dumb.

    Poor people don’t post here. THey don’t send their kid to college, their kids probably won’t even finish high school. Most will be spending their living hours working day and night to keep the lights on and keep the eviction notice at bay. So selfish aren’t they?

  39. Kate

    that why women are paid on average .65 to every dollar a man makes when doing the same work?

    Please go back and read the stats because that is plain not true.

    And it doesn’t make any business sense either. I mean, think about it. If I am running a business and I can get exactly the same work, experience, etc from a woman at 65 cents to having to pay a man $1, why should I employ any men at all?

    The $.65/$1 canard has got to be retired. Please.

    Jobs that pay $7/hr are entry level jobs. First rung jobs for teens who have no experience or possibly retired people looking to get out of the house.

    And “the poor” are not some permanent monolythe. The vast majority of “poor” pass through that status within a 5 year window. The college kids with cinderblock and plank bookshelves in a tiny studio apartment eating raman noodles, the single mom with a young child who is taking night classes, the throw away kid from the abusive family who strikes out on his own, joins the military and later gets his college degree via GI bill. The “permanent” poor are a very small percentage with such profound problems that something like a “living wage” will not make any difference.

  40. Animals work less than three hours a day. The vast majority of an animal’s life is spent either sleeping or in leisure/play activities.

    Time for a good French joke here.

  41. And it doesn’t make any business sense either. I mean, think about it. If I am running a business and I can get exactly the same work, experience, etc from a woman at 65 cents to having to pay a man $1, why should I employ any men at all?

    The $.65/$1 canard has got to be retired. Please.

    Firstly, you don’t pay men to do what you could just as well havea women do, thus the predominance of women in traditional roles such as cashier, CNA, hotel maids, etc. Women are willing to do that work and often are not given the opportunity to move out such, unless they are willing to “go against the grain” of social convention (more on that later). A few token women in one or another non-traditional field does not serve to set the standards or overcome the statistics.

    I’d love to retire it, I’d love to retire a lot of patriartchal insistutions that persist. And yes it makes no sense, but I see it everyday and the stats prove it out consistently. Patriarchy hangs on despite the fact that it isn’t economically wise. It continues to flourish because those who chose to believe it and can practice it hold positions that allow them to perpetuate it — obviously patriarchy worked just fine for them, so why change it?

    The old guard also has reason to fear the movement of women into their men-dominated trades/careers/positions because obviously the influx of available labor, much less the womens’ willingness to work for less with drive could drive down their rates overall.

    Presently there is a serious shortage of people to fill positions in the building and related trades. Do you seem women being actively recruited? Do you see men who predominate the hiring/firing positions looking to encourage women to fill these well paying positions? Do you see women flocking to fill these positions of good pay, usually good working hours and for the most part work that is not too physically demanding for the average woman (despite popular mythology to the contrary)?

    What about such areas as surgery? How about heart surgerns do you see around? Ask any woman surgeon about the patriarchy in that career and see what they’ll tell you.

    How many men are staying at home to care for the kids?

    When I see the numbers in those areas rise according in contradicition to past history and present rates, then I’ll be convinced that sexism in the workplace doesn’t exist.

    So give me a break — puh–lease!

    And “the poor” are not some permanent monolythe. The vast majority of “poor” pass through that status within a 5 year window. The college kids with cinderblock and plank bookshelves in a tiny studio apartment eating raman noodles, the single mom with a young child who is taking night classes, the throw away kid from the abusive family who strikes out on his own, joins the military and later gets his college degree via GI bill. The “permanent” poor are a very small percentage with such profound problems that something like a “living wage” will not make any difference.

    Typical response from someone who hasn’t been exposed to the culture of poverty. Poverty is insidious and it is mult-generational and it is also supported by our social infrastructure. But you have to live with those people to see it and understand it. Your response illustrates the wide cultural divide that exists.

    Most often people do not move out of their lower-class status and into the middle class, this has been proven time and time again through scientific observation and anyone who has had experience with people in the lower income strata beyond college students or in their professional work life, can easily see this.

    Most of those who enter into military service do not utilize their ability to go to college through the GI bill and if they do, few come out earning enough to move them out of the class they were born into, if they even finish. Most impoverished families do not value college or see it as a recourse out of poverty as their economic situation does not allow them to see past next month or tomorrow.

    The left has been gathering the numbers and doing the research since the sixties to show that children from impoverished families start with a distinct disadvantage that only widens as they mature. The right and those who want to believe that poverty doesn’t exist or isn’t a systemic problem in this country, consistently trump out some token or another of success, but the numbers show that the vast majority of people stay in the class in which they were born and that means economic class.

    Also, with educational limitations from early on and cultural division, impoverished children learn less and less how to fend for themselves in a middle class environment and exhibit language, values and attitudes that seperate them from those they most need to emulate in order to “fit in”, gain exceptance and succeed.

    Most often, due to this, the further down the economic strata you travel, the more you will find women who are trapped even deeper in poverty and traditional roles than their middle class counterparts.

    Anyway, if this conclusion, that a “five year window” existed in which people “passed through” poverty, then why are ghettos and impoverished small towns filled with people who’ve lived there generation after generation with no hope of improvement?

  42. The $.65/$1 canard has got to be retired. Please.

    Especially since as of about 1998, it’s up to $.75, and even in the uber-liberal NYU courses, they admitted that when you control for time off to raise kids, etc., it’s actually $.98/$1.00. Childless women make as much as men when they go into the same careers.

    Kate is probably right that the $.75 would even out too if more men stayed home and if businesses were more family-friendly. And it makes sense to ask why these things are not more common.

    But too often this statistic is carelessly thrown around to make it appear that Business A is hiring Joe Entrylevel at $1.00/hour, but Sally Entrylevel at $.65/hour, for the same exact position on the same exact resume. *That* is what is not the case, and has been illegal since the ’70’s. Anyone who sees that happening at their company should file a whopping lawsuit, not blog about it quietly.

  43. If anyone is interested at an in-depth, up-to-date look at the wage gap, see “The Price of Motherhood” by Ann Crittenden. She goes into what Darleen and Marian are talking about here, with suggestions of very feminist solutions for equitable changes in the workforce for both mothers and fathers.

    It’s also my opinion that if MRAs and FRAs are serious about their commitment to custody rights issues, many solutions to what ails them are in this book.

  44. Who builds and maintains the nanotech assemblers?

    They build themselves. (That’s why they’re called “assemblers”, they build things, including more of themselves. You’ve never heard of this stuff?)

    Who shovels the shit into trucks and drives the trucks to the assembly plant?

    The assemblers come to you. They’re already where you’re at. Nobody needs to truck anything anywhere; everything the assemblers need is already everywhere.

    Why should your survival as an individual rely on another person’s technological genius in creating the machinery that keeps you alive?

    Everybody’s survival already relies on that. Do you think the Earth can support 6 billion people on simple agriculture? Please.

    If you don’t like the idea of being reliant on someone else’s technical genius, then you’d better shut off your computer, turn off your water and sewer, and move into a cave. We’re way beyond the point of debate in regards to technology being critical to our survival. Beyond by about 2000 years, I would say.

    What about you makes you worthy to steal the product of someone else’s labor?

    I don’t see how it’s stealing another person’s labor. The crime is that others have to labor for us all to live. But the sun shines for free, and that energy input, used intelligently through technology, supplies everything we need to live. Everything else, like entertainment or luxury, capitalism apportions. What’s the problem with that? I’m not proposing a government that hands out free TV’s, I’m referring to a technology that literally uses the sun’s energy to create free lunches.

  45. Apparently I’m a popular guy, or at least what I’m saying is interesting enough to be noted. Several replies concatenated, therefore:

    volunterism IE that people, as neither slave nor master to each other VOLUNTARILY engage in trade …. that I have something of value YOU want, that you have something of value I want and we dicker until an agreement is reached or we go our own way until we find the deal we are satisfied with.

    Where is the “volunteerism” if what you have is something that I need to buy? That I literally can’t survive without?

    If I have no choice but to buy, but you have a choice about whether or not to sell, that’s not capitalism, that’s extortion. It is, legally. Look it up.

    Why should anybody’s survival be based on their willingness to be a victim of extortion? That’s not capitalism; that’s slavery.

    And it is going to come as a crushing blow to your ego I am sure, but the patrons and employees of Wal Mart and the local pizzeria don’t give a flying rat’s ass whether you think it benefits society or not, they are living their lives and spending their money as they see fit and of their own free will.

    It’s free will that I’m concerned about. Nobody who’s being extorted by pseudo-capitalism has truly free will. Nobody who has to make the choice between dying and working a job they don’t enjoy has truly free will. Oh, sure, you can say that they could always choose to die, but that’s a joke. That’s Hobson’s choice. It’s like “any color you want as long as it’s black.” Anybody who mistook that as an actual choice should just excuse themselves from the discussion, now.

    Chet,I’ve decided you must be a Liberal Arts major.Think through what it means if everyone gets to set their own wage.You’ve just described capitalism.

    No, capitalism is where others set your wage. You don’t tell your boss how much you want to work for; the bosses – at your company, and at the other companies you could concievably work for – tell you how much you’re going to make.

    People are fee to value their efforts however they want.What bothers you is other people are also allowwed to value one’s efforts.And Chet,there’s an awful lot of money that goes to people who won’t or can’t support themselves

    About ten times the amount of federal money you’re thinking of goes to people who already have enough, by far, to support themselves. That’s the greater waste. How could anyone disagree?

  46. They build themselves. (That’s why they’re called “assemblers”, they build things, including more of themselves. You’ve never heard of this stuff?)

    Yeah, Chet, I’ve heard of it.

    Whose labor paid for the ten trillion dollars it took to do the research and build the first fab plant? Last I checked, those guys don’t work for free.

    The assemblers come to you. They’re already where you’re at. Nobody needs to truck anything anywhere; everything the assemblers need is already everywhere.

    Uh huh. And unlike every other invention in the history of humanity, this one will maintain itself, trouble-free. Nobody has to go to college and learn nanorobotics. Nobody has to pull ten hour shifts trying to figure out why the latest batch of assemblers keeps producing John Tesh CDs instead of hamburger. (Nobody pulled the ten-hour shift designing the latest batch, for that matter.)

    You sound like one of the people at the beginning of the steam era, foreseeing the end of labor. Sorry, man. Nothing is simple; nothing is easy. Things break, things go to shit, things have to get fixed, things have to be designed. Six-bong-hit futurists rapping about how awesome it will be once the nanomachines do everything for us are not going to do those things; engineers will.

    Engineers require payment, no matter how cool the toys are that they get to play with. It takes time and energy to become mentally proficient in anything. People will require compensation for that time and energy.

    Can nanotech make us a whole lot richer? Probably. That’ll be cool. But just like atomic power, and steam power, and the assembly line, and every other brilliant innovation which has drastically increased our wealth, increasing wealth and nobody-has-to-work-ever-again aren’t the same thing.

    If you don’t like the idea of being reliant on someone else’s technical genius…

    Sorry, I didn’t phrase that clearly. What I meant was, why should I let you feed off my technical genius for free? I’ve invented nanorobots. Damned if I’m releasing them into the wild to make burgers for hippies; pay me through the nose for them, or get the fuck out.

    But the sun shines for free, and that energy input, used intelligently through technology, supplies everything we need to live…I’m referring to a technology that literally uses the sun’s energy to create free lunches.

    A technology that doesn’t exist yet, chief – and which will require trillions in capital and a buttload of skull sweat, if it works at all.

    The sun shone for free in the Paleolithic era, and intelligent use of lithic technology let us convert that into tasty food – nuts, berries, and mastodon steak, mmm mmm good. The sun has “provided everything we need to live” since the beginning of time – it still takes work to get it.

    The wedge – the amount of human labor per unit of sunshine to get it turned into the necessities of life – may well be increased dramatically yet again by nanotech (although I’d lay more money on space elevators); it’s already happened many times. But reducing a cost to “not so much, considering” is not the same thing as reducing it to zero. So ten people have to work in the nanoplant instead of 100 working at the space complex instead of 1000 working at the factory farm instead of 100000 working at subsistence agriculture – it’s still people working, it’s still people getting paid, and it’s still the horrible crime of people having to work to live because those workers didn’t go to college to donate their time.

    Pay them, or starve.

  47. And unlike every other invention in the history of humanity, this one will maintain itself, trouble-free. Nobody has to go to college and learn nanorobotics.

    Not if they don’t want to. Only if they want luxuries and entertainment.

    Most people do; bare survival doesn’t seem to be a prospect that most people are interested in. So your grousing doesn’t seem to have much point. People don’t enter technical fields simply to survive – that would be impossible, because you’d starve to death before you finished school. People enter technical or professional fields to command professional salaries, or because they love doing it, or both. I don’t see how that would be affected simply by discovering a way to hand out free food at no cost.

    Engineers require payment, no matter how cool the toys are that they get to play with.

    I still don’t understand why you think I’m predicting the end of money. Haven’t I repeatedly told you that I’m a capitalist, and that I believe capitalism is the most efficient solution for distributing and valuing resources that aren’t essential to life?

    Quit arguing a strawman, Robert, and grapple with my actual point. It grows rather wearisome to shadow-box with you.

    What I meant was, why should I let you feed off my technical genius for free?

    Your technical genius? I doubt you did it alone. At best you stood on the shoulders of giants, and even in that case, you owe society a considerable debt for all the stuff we did for you while you were tinkering around with nanotech assemblers. So the real question is, why shouldn’t you have to repay that debt?

    Anyway, be an asshole all you like. What are you going to do when your first customer buys your assemblers and then uses them to assemble more assemblers, and hands them out for free? These things are getting out, Robert. There’s just no question about it.

    The sun shone for free in the Paleolithic era, and intelligent use of lithic technology let us convert that into tasty food – nuts, berries, and mastodon steak, mmm mmm good.

    Indeed. And nobody had to pay the plants to grow, or the mastodons to live. The food was there for you to hunt or gather. (Hence, “hunter-gatherers.”) If you weren’t willing to pay someone else’s prices for the food they had gathered, you were perfectly free to gather your own. You could always provide for yourself, if you liked. Paying someone else to do that was an option.

    Now, it has become a necessity. There’s literally no way for the majority of human beings to gather their own food. And that’s textbook extortion.

    Pay them, or starve.

    They get paid by everybody who wants to use nanotech to make a non-essential item – by people who are using it for luxury and entertainment. There will still be plenty of jobs that need to be done. It’s simply the case that employers won’t be able to rely on the expolitative labor of people who need to work to live in order to fill those jobs. Unless you believe that an employer has the right to exploit their workforce? I guess I’d like to see you justify that.

  48. Here’s a question to think about: what is a necessity?

    Food? Okay. A poor person 100 years ago would starve for want of food. Today they contract diabetes because the cheapest food is the worst for you. So, what is a necessity: the 2,000 calories a day you need to survive, or a healthy, balanced diet?

    Shelter? Alright. Does each person deserve their own room? How much square footage? What about hot and cold running water, and electricity. Neither of these would have been considered a necessity 100 years ago.

    What about a toothbrush? Necessity for dental health, or luxury you can do without?

    Health care: what is a necessity? Yearly checkups, cancer screenings, heart transplants? Gym memberships to prevent the dreaded obesity? Dietary supplements?

    Computers? 20 years ago giving a computer to a kid would have sounded foolish. Today it’s considered a necessary tool to succeed in education.

    The truth is, many things that are considered necessities today were luxuries 20-50-100 years ago. What does this say about society and technology? That it has improved the quality of life for people of all income levels. Would you rather be in the bottom 10% of income today, or 100 years ago?

    If you propose providing “the basic necessities” for all people, you have to be prepared to do some soul-searching to determine exactly what this means.

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