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Students at Stuyvesant Take Issue With Dress Code

And no wonder. Stuyvesant is one of the best public high schools in New York City; it’s very competitive to get in, and its graduates go on to excellent colleges. And apparently the kids at Stuy were dressing “inappropriately,” and a new code had to be issued and enforced. Here’s the code:

• Sayings and illustrations on clothing should be in good taste.
• Shoulders, undergarments, midriffs and lower backs should
not be exposed.
• The length of shorts, dresses and skirts should extend below
the fingertips with the arms straight at your side.

How many of these apply to male students at Stuyvesant, do you think? (And also, you can’t show your shoulders? Even at a law firm I wore sleeveless dresses that revealed my shoulders).

Students at Stuy are pointing out that while the dress code is ridiculous, the enforcement is even moreso — because it’s inconsistent, and seems to be based more on a particular student’s body type than on what they’re actually wearing. Oh and the enforcement also comes with a healthy dose of “You’re gonna get raped wearing that” and “You’ll never find a husband in that”:

I have been stopped to justify my clothing many, many times since the beginning of this school year, and nine out of 10 times, I wasn’t breaking the dress code. I’ve been told that even though my skirts were technically acceptable, they were still too short for me to wear, and once it was suggested that I should follow a separate dress code, wherein my skirts should end at least four inches past my fingertips, and preferably at my knees. Even though hearing that I needed an individual dress code was hurtful, it wasn’t even the worst thing that’s happened to me regarding the dress code. That would be the time that I walked in wearing a dress that did in fact follow the rules, only to be stopped by one of the women sitting by the scanners. She told me that my dress was too short, and that I would have plenty of time to “show off my curves” when I wasn’t in school (I found this to be ridiculous because the dress I was wearing was shapeless). She then went on to say that the dress code was only instituted for my protection, because there are a lot of bad men outside school, and if I was raped nobody would be able to take that away from me. Then, she said, “and you want a husband, don’t you?”

I can understand some dress regulations at school (like not allowing a kid to wear a “God Hates Fags” t-shirt), although I actually favor letting kids wear pretty much whatever they want, no matter how offensive or “distracting.” Part of being an adult is moving through a diverse world where distracting and offensive things happen (and hello, you are in New York City, which is basically the universe-wide locus of distracting, offensive and bizarre things), and part of becoming an adult is figuring out how to do that. Yes, a young woman in a short skirt and a tube top might be “distracting” for a fifteen-year-old straight male, but that straight male is going to have to learn how to move through a world in which women will wear clothing in public that he finds attractive or arousing. When I was a fifteen-year-old straight female, I was on the school swim team, and let me tell you how distracting boys in drag-shorts can be for a hormone-addled girl. But you know, I dealt with it, and didn’t demand that all of the male swim team members put on sweatsuits. And as an adult, I do not kick over hot dude cyclists because they’re riding with their shirts off, or mean-mug beautiful men at the gym for being beautiful and sweaty and in the same room as me. Adulthood! Learning that your sexual desires are yours and kinda fun and not the “fault” of the person you find desirable! Realizing that the world is full of attractive people and you need to figure out a way to recognize that and still get things done! ADULTHOOD!

Beyond the treatment of young men as uncontrollable animals and the treatment of young women as rape-bait, the Stuy dress code enforcers also appear to fall into a common problem with dress codes generally — defining an “appropriate” body. As the students quoted in the Times article implied, some of them technically met the dress code but were still told they were “inappropriate,” not because of what they were wearing, but because of how it looked on them. I don’t know what those students look like, but I’m going to guess it comes down to boobs and butts. Flesh is what’s often considered “inappropriate” — B-cup boobs in a turtleneck are fine, but double-Ds are not; straight hips in a pencil skirt are fine, but curvy ones are not. It’s the body that’s being policed, not the clothes.

I understand that high schools need to be learning environments without unnecessary distractions. But students also need to feel safe at school. And while a short skirt might “distract” a hetero male student, having adults shame you for clothes that are perceived to be too slutty or a body that is labeled too sexual is an awfully big distraction. And that gets in the way of female students’ ability to learn in a safe environment. Because if girls are coming to school preoccupied with their clothes and are then subjected to “you’re going to get raped” taunts from authority figures, they are not going to feel safe. They are not going to be able to focus on what they’re in school for: To learn, not to be the subject of modesty testing.

Thanks, Baratunde, for the link (and hey you guys, buy his book!).


223 thoughts on Students at Stuyvesant Take Issue With Dress Code

  1. The young women who published their stories should be proud of speaking out. Their treatment sounds appalling. Dress codes like these are all about shaming and sexualizing girls when they’re just trying to be normal kids.

    I wonder how many hours of class girls have missed being punished for their appearance compared to boys?

  2. I was going to write a thing about well some things are just inappropriate in a school but nah fuck that shit. Who cares if girls are showing some skin? Guys at that age are gonna get distracted whether they’re dressed ‘inappropriately’ or not. IMO guys getting distracted is being used as a poor excuse here…

  3. Sooo…

    then what are the girls supposed to wear during the warmer months? I don’t see anything else fashionable stores are selling that wouldn’t break at least one of those rules.

  4. I agree with Jill, I’m just wondering why this is being looked at as a new thing. I graduated 2 years ago and my tiny Canadian high school had an even stricter dress code, and it was school division wide. Just because it’s Stuyvesant I suppose.

  5. Part of being an adult is moving through a diverse world where distracting and offensive things happen

    I’m almost thankful I got used to the (male) track team in my high school changing in the gym while I had class. I was able to walk across my campus in college without wandering into traffic once spring hit and all the guys ran around in shirtless packs.

  6. Re inconsistent enforcement – why do they even create a dress code if they are not going to follow it? They might as well just have kept the “rule” of “don’t wear anything the administration finds inappropriate” (which seems to have been the case before the new rules).

  7. (And also, you can’t show your shoulders? Even at a law firm I wore sleeveless dresses that revealed my shoulders).

    Depends what they mean by shoulders – at my school we were allowed sleeveless tops (that show your arms but arguably cover your shoulders, if you think of shoulders as your shoulderblades and upper back), but we were not allowed to wear tank tops. That doesn’t seem that unreasonable – they were basically trying to get us to get used to dressing somewhat professionally.

    The parts of the dress code quoted in the OP doesn’t sound all that bad to me on the face of them (my school was stricter). But the comments from adults enforcing it are the big problem! I can’t believe a teacher would flat out tell a high school girl that she shouldn’t wear something because she might get raped. And I agree that telling a student they need their own dress code is a way of shaming them for their body, which is just mean. Some clothes do look significantly different on different body types, and part of growing up is figuring out how to dress in a way you’re comfortable and confident in for your own body. But that is something each person needs to figure out for themselves and their comfort level – it seems very counter-productive to tell teenage girls their body is not acceptable in the same clothes as their friends.

    I remember having minor problems with our dress code because it included covering up your middrift. I would buy shirts that barely covered my middrift, because I was on the tall side and long shirts weren’t in style at the time and were hard to find, but then a bit of skin would show when I raised my arm. I remember having teachers point that out between classes occasionally and feeling like it was unfair because I felt like I was being punished for being tall. But I also don’t really think that’s as bad as what’s in this article, because being tall is not something girls are shamed for that much and also I WAS breaking an explicit dress code rule. No one told me I had to follow a different dress code from everyone else – it was just a little harder for me to go shopping for tops that fit our dress code. I also vaguely remember someone pointing out to me that a skirt that goes to your fingertips looks a lot shorter on a tall person than on a short person, but no one ever told me I had to follow different rules because of that.

    So I guess I’m saying our dress code was similar, but even when violations were pointed out, the teachers would never have told us something like we better watch out for being raped. I think that’s way over the line.

  8. Oh I also wanted to add that its also too bad if this dress code is mostly aimed at girls. That’s an added unfairness. At my high school I feel like any issues about clothing being revealing were always issues with girls, but overall boys actually had a stricter dress code. Our whole dress code was based around looking professional. Boys were required to wear a shirt with a collar, like a polo shirt or a button down shirt, while girls could get away with wearing a “fashion” t-shirt and claim it was acceptably professional looking. Overall there’s a lot more variation in what girls can wear to look dressed up than there is for boys, so girls got away with more in terms of style. Boys would also have been in trouble if they tried to wear something revealing to school, but I think that rarely if ever happened, because that’s not how men’s fashions have been lately.

  9. I don’t think it’s the dress code that’s so new and ridiculous as the way it’s enforced. Dress codes are frustrating and silly, and almost always come down harder on young women (although in my school, a bunch of guys got sent home for having their boxers showing or for not wearing appropriately dressy shoes on assembly day, so sometimes the ridiculousness goes both ways). But I’m pretty sure high schools are always going to have them.

    The really horrible thing here is the school’s enforcement and body-policing. That’s truly unacceptable, and I hope these women’s stories change something at Stuy.

  10. then what are the girls supposed to wear during the warmer months? I don’t see anything else fashionable stores are selling that wouldn’t break at least one of those rules.

    I assume a high school administration doesn’t especially want them to be shopping at fashionable stores anyway 😉

  11. Also, isn’t “you will/won’t find a husband in that” an inappropriate thing to say to a high-schooler?

  12. I object to all dress codes on basic principles of freedom of expression. There is no reason to police what students are wearing as long as it does not create an unsafe environment. I object to them on principles of feminism: they almost always come down to policing girls’ bodies and sexualities. I object to them on principles of treating people with respect: in my mother’s high school, the idea was that the hem of your skirt should touch the floor when you were kneeling, and teachers could actually demand that girls kneel in the hallway or the classroom to see if your skirt met the criterion.

    It’s oppressive, body-shaming, slut-shaming, girl-shaming, sadistic bullshit. Why is it so threatening to school administrations if young people express themselves through clothing? Aren’t the administrators supposed to be adults?

  13. Also, isn’t “you will/won’t find a husband in that” an inappropriate thing to say to a high-schooler?

    It’s an inappropriate thing to say to anyone.

    I find the curve where the biceps meets the elbow in men to be very arousing and distracting. And yet nobody suggested that the boys in my high school be forced to wear long-sleeved shirts all the time.

    I have a longer, more forceful comment in mod.

  14. Reading that article made me feel like crying. I didn’t anticipate that reaction, but it really triggered feelings of body shame and hate that I had for all of my pre-adolescent and teen years. I always wore layers or baggy clothes to school, and I never wore skirts or dresses unless they were baggy and went to my ankles. I didn’t dress that way because I was concerned with being “appropriate”, I dressed that way because I was disgusted with my large breasts and big hips and I didn’t want anyone else to see them. An administration that polices girls bodies and tries to cast them in the role of distracting temptress or “rape-bait” is encouraging unhealthy body image issues in young girls. Girl bodies are not the problem in schools. No one’s body is.

  15. I would also like to point out that nobody was noting a drop in test scores or a slump in college acceptances–this has nothing to do with what a school’s mission is supposed to be, which is educating its students. It has everything to do with the kind of petty authoritarian bureaucrat who thinks young people, particularly girls, should jump whenever he cracks his whip.

  16. Yet another school instilling victim-blaming attitudes in its students…oh dear.

    This story reminds me of the ridiculous view of modesty within the conservative side of my family. Last year, when I entered my aunt’s house, I heard her telling my female cousin to put on her hijab immediately. As a male, I honestly felt insulted. First, I

  17. This is disgusting and horrifying — both the rules themselves (which are far stricter than the rules in my son’s high school) and the manner of enforcement. I truly had no idea that this sort of strict dress code was still being imposed in high schools in New York City, in downtown Manhattan, of all places. In my New York City high school, the dress code (and the hair code) were virtually eliminated when I was in 9th grade, which is more than 40 years ago now.

    By the way, I work at a law firm, and I wear sleeveless dresses and tops too, sometimes, in the summer. (Although I admit that I usually put on a sweater if I’m walking around my office as opposed to sitting at my desk. I feel too exposed, otherwise, especially at a firm like mine, where 75% of the lawyers are men. Not that they’re looking at me, I’m sure, but still.)

  18. I have no idea why my comment got posted prematurely. Anyway…

    Yet another school instilling victim-blaming attitudes in its students…oh dear.

    This story reminds me of the ridiculous view of modesty within the conservative side of my family. Last year, when I entered my aunt’s house, I heard her telling my female cousin to put on her hijab right away. The same thing happened with an older female cousin; as soon as she saw me enter the house, she ran behind a wall and put her hijab on like her life depended on it. While I understand the Islamic dress code, I honestly feel insulted by these attitudes. I can’t possibly view any of my family members (including my distant relatives) in a sexual way or be aroused by their appearance. And even if that were the case, surely just seeing their hair wouldn’t make me aroused. Geez.

    In addition to the silly fear of spontaneous premarital sex within Islamic circles, there are some victim-blaming attitudes that I absolutely despise. I mean, right in the Koran is a verse that says that women should cover themselves up so that they don’t get molested or annoyed by men. That’s not open to interpretation; it’s all there in Arabic.

    I don’t mean to start a religious argument here; I just want to share some similar frustrations I have to deal with often. They probably aren’t nearly as bad as those of the Muslim women and girls who deal with ridiculous sayings like “If your hair peeks out of your hijab, you’re being immodest.”

  19. I wear sleeveless tops and even dressy tank tops to work, but I usually have a cardigan I can put on if I have to stand in front of people at a meeting or something. I don’t have to – no one is enforcing any sort of dress code on us – but I feel like its a little more professional. Plus, the layering actually works better in this kind of climate where its really hot outside but then icy from the air conditioning inside. I wonder if these schools aren’t air conditioned? If its really hot and humid in the classrooms, maybe that’s part of the problem.

  20. To those saying “So? My school had similar rules, what’s special about this one? ”

    You are missing the point spectacularly. It isn’t about the dress code, it’s about shaming young women for daring to develop secondary sexual characteristics, and then holding them to a higher standard because of that.

    Class and race undoubtedly feature in this too. WoC are often classed as having deviant, dangerous sexuality. Their bodies classed as public property, discussed and tutted over, and policed.. Poorer girls often develop earlier, girls of colour seem to. Once that puberty genie is out of the bottle, these young women are. no longer innocent children, they’re meat. !Think back to being 12/13. which girls in your class were more likely to be called sl*tty? Time and time again the ‘sl*t’ is
    often just the girl with the largest breasts.

    I had C cups at 9, and attained my full adult height at ten. Friends told me that their mothers assured them that they would develop soon too,and not to be jealous because my breasts were “not real, just fat”. One woman told. per daughter. that “[it’s] not appropriate for you to be in a bra anyway, at your are”. It was gleefully recounted to me the next day, the girl thrilled to be reassured that I was the freak, not her

    I was acutely aware, even then, that the only thing that saved me from being the “school sl*g” was the. fact that my friend Alison had DD breasts. I used to pray every night “;Don’t let me get bigger than Alison”.

    She was the lead in our Christmas play when we were ten. As an innkeeper’s wife I had a top and blouse. She had a mid-thigh length shift, as her role was as a camel keeper, and was cast according to ability to play the part, not by gender.

    After the main performance my mother was upset, she seemed distracted. Apparently several fathers in the audience were hooting and whistling whenever Alison stood up, and making sexual remarks and inferences about her. One man said “I’m so pleased I’m recording this, nobody would believe me otherwise.

    Ten years old. Some mothers then forbade their girls from being her friend, because of her “reputation”. Was it the rollerskating or the dolls I wonder? Sick. Oh I. got harassed, propositioned by men, assaulted even, but kept thinking “Thank God I’m not. Alison. “.

  21. After the main performance my mother was upset, she seemed distracted. Apparently several fathers in the audience were hooting and whistling whenever Alison stood up, and making sexual remarks and inferences about her. One man said “I’m so pleased I’m recording this, nobody would believe me otherwise.

    What. The. Fuck.

    I’m really sorry to hear about you and your friend’s experiences.

  22. Ugh.. not entirely ‘dress code’ related but I remember during sex ed my seventh grade teaching told the girls in the class that we could all do with making sure our bras fit better, so we don’t get made fun of.

    Good teacher otherwise, but that piece of ‘advice’ just rubbed me wrong, even at age 12.

  23. This is nothing new to me because we had these exact same regulations when I was in high school 10-15 years ago. It was a good thing too I think because there was a lot of girls that would have went to school half naked, and I know because I was friends with many of them. It didn’t apply much to me because my natural fashion sense has always been on the modest side, but a lot of my friends wanted to be objectified because they loved the attention. They felt like being stared at and sexually pursued meant that they were worthy of love and attention. It wasn’t about sexual or personal freedom, it was about having deep seeded issues that they didn’t know how to deal with.

    1. This is nothing new to me because we had these exact same regulations when I was in high school 10-15 years ago. It was a good thing too I think because there was a lot of girls that would have went to school half naked, and I know because I was friends with many of them. It didn’t apply much to me because my natural fashion sense has always been on the modest side, but a lot of my friends wanted to be objectified because they loved the attention. They felt like being stared at and sexually pursued meant that they were worthy of love and attention. It wasn’t about sexual or personal freedom, it was about having deep seeded issues that they didn’t know how to deal with.

      I agree that it is a problem that girls invest so much of their self-worth into their personal appearance. But… most human beings like positive attention for their looks (being stared at and sexually pursued isn’t the attention that is wanted from everyone, of course). And I’m not seeing how dress codes actually address the “deep seeded issues” that those girls supposedly have. I mean, I don’t and have never dressed particularly revealing, but that’s because I have deep body image issues — I do not now, and have never, liked many parts of my body, and so I wear clothes that generally cover it. And yet no one is trying to require me to wear more revealing clothing so that I might get over my issues.

      Perhaps we project a little bit too much onto women who wear certain types of clothing? Perhaps the psychological and social issues faced by many women aren’t actually addressed or cured by rules about what we can or cannot wear?

  24. They felt like being stared at and sexually pursued meant that they were worthy of love and attention. It wasn’t about sexual or personal freedom, it was about having deep seeded issues that they didn’t know how to deal with.

    Did they tell you this or are you making assumptions as to their reasoning? Is it possible that, as growing young women, they were interested in exploring and negotiating their own tastes?

    Just askin’

  25. It didn’t apply much to me because my natural fashion sense has always been on the modest side, but a lot of my friends wanted to be objectified because they loved the attention. They felt like being stared at and sexually pursued meant that they were worthy of love and attention.

    So obviously it’s better to teach young girls that their worthiness depends on their modesty and purity right?

  26. Thank you. What’s sadder is that I knew this at eight or nine, I’d already internalised that physical development equalled a shift into a dangerous place.

    In a country with topless women on page three of the
    newspaper, and in at least one case, a countdown to the latest model reaching the legal age to pose, going. topless on her birthday…

    If you’re capable of reading said paper, you’re exposed to all sorts of disgusting contradictions about how women should behave. As a kid who read voraciously, anything I could get my hands on, society’s views there in black and white told me my body meant danger. Girls and women needed to tread an impossible line. or suffer the consequences. Also looking more like 15 than 10, meant having to act the age I appeared to be, and not be “childish”. I’m sad for little kid me. Raging with hormones when you should be playitg house, breasts and tree-climbing, mood swings and acne competing with my teddy bears for my attention.

    Past 11 (at secondary school) it only got worse. Communal showers after PE. with 30 peers who were more. “appropriately” developed.

    A PE teacher who smirked as she said she would have to order my uniform (we had a general school uniform, and a separate one for PE) specially, because the largest size they stocked would not fit someone with hips and buttocks as “fat” as mine. My mother raged about that, but only because an adult skirt cost more, and if only I’d stuck to that diet…

    I’m just glad I’m not a young girl now. I’m safe, in my thirties, and not facing the immense pressure of 24/7 amera culture. Every move scrutinised online and in real life. Never thought I’d be glad to be “old”!

    UThis subject has obviously triggered some shit for me. I want to tell those young women in New York that their bodies are not dangerous or inappropriate, not shameful, not obscene for just bloody existing.

  27. Ashley – why do. you think your friends thought like that?

    Seriously, when Chiara’s response to your comment appears so well-articulated and insightful, then it’s time to sit down for a rethink.

    Chiara, I’m basing that purely on your past here. Congrats on your apparent rebirth!

  28. I was in high school back in the early to mid 80s at the height of the preppy era and tight or revealing clothes were not popular with us girls. But there was still harassment and slut-shaming aplenty. It’s not caused by how you dress. It’s caused by a sexist culture that denigrates girls and women.

  29. Ahh, yes, dress codes.

    My school district as a child seemed more concerned with curbing gang activity than modesty…obviously, because the plaid jumper/blouse combination I was assigned in elementary school didn’t do a good job of hanging modestly on my 10 year old C cups. Walking to the city bus in that outfit was eye opening.

    Then middle school happened and suddenly everyone was worried about modesty. One day I was chewed out by a vice principal because the blouse was too revealing…because button ups are so good for the chesty among us. The next day, I was chewed out by the same administrator because apparently my other uniform option (turtleneck) was also too slutty on my body.

    Then there was the time I got in a fight with a cheerleader (and won, incidentally). The office staff was more concerned with tut-tutting us over fighting in our skirts in front of boys than with finding out that this girl had been harassing me the entire schoolyear.

    The most surreal dress code story was from my diverse high school. I got a code ticket (it meant you had to go change into loaner clothes from the office; we didn’t have uniforms anymore) for my tank top at the same time as one of my Muslim girl friends in a head scarf. Apparently her jeans were too tight, and the dean of girls could not understand why my friend couldn’t change into a pair of PE shorts that barely covered her knees to meet our school’s modesty code.

    Long story short? It’s all a bunch of bullshit designed to teach us to lick the boots of authority at an early age.

  30. So obviously it’s better to teach young girls that their worthiness depends on their modesty and purity right?

    Where was that even implied? I only mentioned my modest taste to emphasis that I was an outsider looking in and observing the behavior of my friends, and yes, many of them did admit to me that wanted to be sexually exploited and objectified. Perhaps it was just a phase, but I don’t find it a healthy phase for a 14 year old to go through.

  31. Ashley – why do you think they wanted that though? What was their motivation? What were they aiming for?

  32. Perhaps it was just a phase, but I don’t find it a healthy phase for a 14 year old to go through.

    Is there a cut-off where enjoying attention that comes from being noticed sexually becomes okay and not about having deep-seated issues?

  33. Well the problem with the “well they’ll have to go out in the real world someday anyway” argument is that school just isn’t “the real world.” As a society we send our children to school for specific reasons, among them to give them the tools to navigate life post-school. If you make school just like ‘the real world’ that kind of defeats the purpose. Also I question the efficacy of requiring students to just ignore their fellows’ sexiness at a time when it is absolutely the most difficult to ignore/when they are just discovering this for the first time.

    I still agree that the dress code is strict (though unremarkable, to be sure) but that argument just bothers me.

  34. Ashley – why do you think they wanted that though? What was their motivation? What were they aiming for?

    Based on what I knew about them, it was to gain attention and approval. A couple of them were troubled or felt invisible at school and since they noticed a lot of the well endowed and promiscuous girls were envied by girls and wanted by the boy, they of course tried to achieve that for themselves. And I never chastised them for the way they wanted to dress and they never chastised me for not dressing revealingly. Like I said, they were my friends and I tried to be a real friend to them and help them with their family and personal problems and help make them feel special and loved because that’s what friends do.

  35. I question the efficacy of requiring students to just ignore their fellows’ sexiness at a time when it is absolutely the most difficult to ignore/when they are just discovering this for the first time.

    Girls manage to ignore it. I rarely see dress codes that revolve around guys looking too sexy or provocative. Guys dress codes tend to slant towards not being sloppy.

  36. As a society we send our children to school for specific reasons, among them to give them the tools to navigate life post-school.

    …Which includes learning to treat people respectfully even if their appearance is arousing to you.

  37. There is nothing wrong with teenage girls wanting the people they find attractive to appreciate their own sexual appeal as well. It is a completely normal desire. It is not pathological; it does not necessarily stem from deep-seated “issues”; there is nothing wrong with wanting to be noticed and approved of sexually. And people who want that but don’t get it from their peers will find it in other, less healthy places; I know whereof I speak on this.

    I don’t care about the “they’ll go out into the real world someday” argument. First of all, teenagers are in the real world. They do spend time outside of school. Second, school is the real world. It is really where they really exist and interact. And most importantly, girls shouldn’t be policed because of boys’ inability to behave properly. Let boys be policed if they can’t pay attention in school. And let’s have some evidence that schoolwork was actually affected.

  38. I still agree that the dress code is strict (though unremarkable, to be sure)

    Can I ask why people think this dress code is strict? I mean, what else does a high school dress code usually do, besides specify length of skirts/shorts, no tank tops, no controversial symbols? To me, strict would be things like “you must wear kakhis not jeans” or “you must wear polo shirts” or similar. Or are you saying the way its being enforced is strict?

    Because to me, the dress code itself sounds ok, at least the part quoted above. Its less restrictive than most workplaces.

    Its the comments from teachers that sound completely inappropriate. I definitely support the students complaining about being told they should be looking for husbands and being blamed for their clothing if they get attacked. But I don’t quite see why its unreasonable for a high school to have a dress code at all, if its applied fairly.

    1. Can I ask why people think this dress code is strict? I mean, what else does a high school dress code usually do, besides specify length of skirts/shorts, no tank tops, no controversial symbols? To me, strict would be things like “you must wear kakhis not jeans” or “you must wear polo shirts” or similar. Or are you saying the way its being enforced is strict?

      Because to me, the dress code itself sounds ok, at least the part quoted above. Its less restrictive than most workplaces.

      The “no bare shoulders” thing is very strict. As is the below-the-fingers skirt. I worked at a New York City law firm, and we definitely did not have a dress code that disallowed shoulder-baring. And yes, in the summer months I sometimes wore sleeveless blouses and dresses to work, and they showed my shoulders.

      But I don’t quite see why its unreasonable for a high school to have a dress code at all, if its applied fairly.

      Because that’s awfully hard. You can say “no short skirts” and then apply that “fairly” insofar as you’ll also suspend a boy for wearing a miniskirt, but the dress code nevertheless impacts girls disproportionately, and reminds them that the female body is sexualized, and implies that if they show too much of it they’re committing some sort of moral transgression.

  39. This dress code, as enforced, is all about the immaturity of the faculty and their inability to deal with their own attraction to and distraction by their students and has nothing to do with students distracting each other. The student body there is more than sufficiently focused on academics already. I have no doubt whatsoever that Stuyvesant High students are more mature than their faculty.

    Here’s a hint for the principle: If teachers are distracted enough by how students dress that it interferes with their work, fire the teachers ASAP. You don’t want ephebophiles on your faculty.

  40. There is nothing wrong with teenage girls wanting the people they find attractive to appreciate their own sexual appeal as well. It is a completely normal desire. It is not pathological; it does not necessarily stem from deep-seated “issues”; there is nothing wrong with wanting to be noticed and approved of sexually. And people who want that but don’t get it from their peers will find it in other, less healthy places; I know whereof I speak on this.

    I agree, the desire is normal and healthy. I do think it could be taken to an unhealthy level as is possible with everything in life’s existence.

  41. Girls manage to ignore it. I rarely see dress codes that revolve around guys looking too sexy or provocative. Guys dress codes tend to slant towards not being sloppy.

    But how much of that is because the current styles for boys are to wear clothes that are long and loose and therefore not revealing? If a boy was wearing a tight midrift-baring tank top or short shorts he’d probably get sent home much faster than a girl would.

    Good counterexamples would be, for example, if the boys are allowed to play sports at school with no shirts or something like that. Nothing like that was allowed at my school, but if it is, then its an example where boys could be policed for being revealingly dressed. But in general outside of sports, I barely ever see a guy who is wearing tight or revealing clothing, so its hard to find a chance to chastise them for it.

  42. Before they shut down the all-girl’s school my daughter really wanted to go to, they had a dress code. I’m assuming it was due in part to the differing economic classes of the girls who would be attending the school. We haven’t received any information about the high school she is going to be put into now, though, if it’s going to be an issue, I have no idea. She hates anything resembling real pants, like jeans or sweats or yoga-ish pants. (she was willing to make the transition for the other school) And they are always tight.

  43. But how much of that is because the current styles for boys are to wear clothes that are long and loose and therefore not revealing?

    I believe I already gave an example of an arousing male body part that is often bared in current fashions. Believe me, straight girls find boys attracting and distracting even in the current styles. They should therefore require boys to look unappealing.

  44. I do think it could be taken to an unhealthy level as is possible with everything in life’s existence.

    Indeed. But that is not something that can or should be addressed by a dress code.

  45. The girl’s statements make me feel sick; I am so sad that young women have to deal with this crap on top of everything else that entails being a teenager. When I was in grade 8 and grade 9, every time I wore a tank top or skirt (very modest ones at that) I’d get called out over the intercom about how I was distracting the male teachers. It was fucked up. It was only me and one other girl who had to deal with that, didn’t matter what other girls wore. I never told my mum about it or she would have lost her shit.

  46. Dressing sexy or provocatively doesn’t necessarily mean the same thing to everything..

    I think guys with Long Hair are super-duper hot and yes even distractingly so. But to the best of my knowledge, guidelines and rules about men’s hair length have always been about A) gender policing or b) hygiene (LolWHUT?) and never about distracting girls with sexiness.

    EG’s example also holds as well.

  47. I stated that badly. I didn’t mean are girls managing not to be distracted by boys because boys dress is not revealing. The point I meant to bring up was how much of the disproportionate rules on girls is because of the dress code and how much is because of general fashion. I don’t think the dress code says “girls shorts must be X long but boys can wear whatever they want”, I think it says “everyone’s legs must be covered to X length”, but due to current fashion standards, its only girls that want to wear something shorter. I also mean this to be totally separate from the inappropriate comments by teachers or unequal enforecement – I’m just talking about the existence of a dress code that specifies shorts being longer than the tips of your fingers. Is that unfair because its only girls fashion that wants to go shorter? Or is it fair because its applied equally to everyone?

    Girls certainly might be distracted by boys’ arms, for example, but girls are allowed to reveal their arms too. My point was that in general boys currently dress much less revealingly than girls, so the issue doesn’t impact them the same way. If boys were dressing more revealingly I wonder what would happen?

    No showing of underwear probably affects boys though, due to the fashion of showing boxer shorts.

  48. Its less restrictive than most workplaces.

    School is not a workplace. It is a place that is supposed to be run for the benefit of the students, not in order to turn a profit.

    But I don’t quite see why its unreasonable for a high school to have a dress code at all, if its applied fairly.

    Can you explain why it’s reasonable for a school to have a dress code at all? When infringing on freedom of expression, the standard should be “why,” not “why not.”

  49. Jill posted while I was typing. That answers some of what I meant. Yes the shoulders thing is strict. But I think a skirt longer than fingertips is standard? That’s the rule I remember. And anything shorter than that is often hard to sit down in. I guess maybe girls should learn to wear skirts they are comfortable moving around in on their own rather than have it forced on them, though. My opinion of what length skirt I’m comfortable in has definitely changed since high school.

    1. Jill posted while I was typing. That answers some of what I meant. Yes the shoulders thing is strict. But I think a skirt longer than fingertips is standard? That’s the rule I remember. And anything shorter than that is often hard to sit down in. I guess maybe girls should learn to wear skirts they are comfortable moving around in on their own rather than have it forced on them, though. My opinion of what length skirt I’m comfortable in has definitely changed since high school.

      Sure. And I’m personally not a fan of short skirts on myself, because of comfort. But try finding, for example, a pair of girls’ shorts in the Juniors department that come below your fingertips. They are extremely difficult to find. And I don’t think it’s “immodest” to wear a paid of mid-thigh shorts to school on a hot day. I wouldn’t wear them to my workplace, but I work in a relatively conservative corporate environment where the dress code is purposed to signal a variety of things — social class, “seriousness,” education, ability to conform and follow rules, professionalism. School isn’t necessarily about those things, and as others have mentioned, isn’t (usually) a for-profit institution.

  50. No showing of underwear probably affects boys though, due to the fashion of showing boxer shorts.

    This is one of those areas where the reasoning tends to differ between boys and girls..

    On girls, underwear and bra straps showing tends to be described as ‘too provocative’ whereas usually visible boxers is more of an issue of being ‘too sloppy’ or in some cases about gang affiliation (which is more a race/class issue and is also bullshit IMO)

  51. Can you explain why it’s reasonable for a school to have a dress code at all? When infringing on freedom of expression, the standard should be “why,” not “why not.”

    Fair enough.

  52. The point I meant to bring up was how much of the disproportionate rules on girls is because of the dress code and how much is because of general fashion.

    But who cares? The effect on girls is the same.

    When boys have their dress policed it is usually for gender conformity and submission to authority. It is only girls who are having their dress policed so as not to be sexually enticing, which suggests that the authority figures don’t think boys’ clothing can be sexually enticing. It’s not as though they’re specifying that all students must wear long-sleeved shirts because some girls (me) find the curve of the biceps and the elbow enticing.

  53. Ashley – yes, anything can be taken to extremes.

    Drinking too much water is fatal. However, society isn’t pressuring girls to drink their own weight in water.

    What society says is that the ‘successful’ woman is confident, without being too sure of herself. She must appear to be sexy, without being sexually active. She must have a man, with all the bizarre unspoken rules about the right way to do that.

    How are young teenagers supposed to navigate that?

    They’re told they have to look a certain way, act. a certain way, aspire to a narrow set of goals. All this while having to focus on their education, dealing with a changing body, trying to renegotiate relationships with friends and family. And from the story. we have girls being. told that they need to attract a good husband!

    They have to juggle all these balls, inevitably some wil drop, and it’s the
    girls will suffer for it

    I can see why they think “Fuck it, I give in, I’ll conform to fashion and peer pressure, I’m too tired to resist”.

  54. I’m just talking about the existence of a dress code that specifies shorts being longer than the tips of your fingers. Is that unfair because its only girls fashion that wants to go shorter? Or is it fair because its applied equally to everyone?

    Well obviously the rule’s existence in the first place is designed from the start to target girls… Nobody ever thought “hmm, we have to make sure boys aren’t showing too much leg!”

    In my school anyway we had a uniform we had to wear but we didn’t have a dress code. We wore short skirts and that shit wasn’t a problem for anyone… and this was a Catholic school. Recently they have put in a dress code in the school to stop girls wearing short skirts amongst other things and yeh now it’s a big deal and people are always making a big stink about girls not conforming to the dress code. So really all they have accomplished with the dress code is creating a problem where there was no problem before.

    I agree, the desire is normal and healthy. I do think it could be taken to an unhealthy level as is possible with everything in life’s existence.

    The solution to this is education not a dress-code.

  55. To those questioning whether this dresscode is particularly ‘harsh’ compared to others, well, really that’s not the point. I think what is missing here is a rule which says you shouldn’t leer at women in short skirts who have their shoulders exposed. The administration seems to be implying that the sexualizing of teenage girls by male students or teachers is ok, if they are ‘provoked’ by sufficient lack of modest dress. If the male faculty and students of Stuyvesant High School can’t behave themselves properly in the presence of a pair of bare shoulders, surely there should be a code against that?

  56. …Which includes learning to treat people respectfully even if their appearance is arousing to you.

    Yeah, but that requires boys and men to show restraint, and if the notes from boners, not to mention the whining that occurs when we say that boner notes are not welcome, demonstrate anything, it’s that many boys and men consider that an expectation most cruel, and something only girls and women should have to do.

  57. Well obviously the rule’s existence in the first place is designed from the start to target girls… Nobody ever thought “hmm, we have to make sure boys aren’t showing too much leg!”

    Dunno, I assume taste, shoulders and undergarments are aimed a boys – stopping vests with offensive slogans and low hanging jeans. And the interesting omisison is there’s no mention of cleavage.

  58. The first rule seems directed at boys for the most part. Also, boys can definitely show shoulders and undergarments as well. I remember being a teenage girl. I didn’t want to see boys wearing tank tops or showing their underwear and I wished teachers would’ve reinforced those rules more.

    Are you saying students should be allowed to wear bikinis to school if they wish?

  59. Well obviously the rule’s existence in the first place is designed from the start to target girls… Nobody ever thought “hmm, we have to make sure boys aren’t showing too much leg!”

    With regards to boys, I have an issue, but it’s not leg.
    I try not to be too judgmental, but I must admit I’ve never been a big fan of the scrotal exposure caused by certain gym shorts, many of which are issued by the schools themselves or at least standard for certain types of athletics. I mean, the level of sac on display in some cases reaches the sexual harassment level, yet, that is not mentioned in the dress code.

  60. I remember being a teenage girl. I didn’t want to see boys wearing tank tops or showing their underwear and I wished teachers would’ve reinforced those rules more.

    Teenage you sounds so fun, I wish we had hung out.
    Seriously when did this site get invaded by the prude parade?

    Are you saying students should be allowed to wear bikinis to school if they wish?

    You know what, if they actually did allow it then people would do it a couple of times for kicks and then they’d get bored and go back to wearing normal clothes. Ever think that maybe kids dress up like that because it’s funny to watch people like you hand-wring about it?

  61. Dress codes have always had a slant on them. So many lawsuits exist on dress codes in schools and their inconsistent enforcement.

    There should be a manual on things NOT to say to students which include how what you wear increases your chances of being raped.

    There was talk of banning pink shirts for boys in a DCPS (District of Columbia Public School) but that was shot down.

    I think it is funny how there are dress codes that dictate girls wearing skirts at a certian length but none saying boys can’t wear their pants so low that their boxers are showing. My sister has been “flashed” at school because some guy wore his pants below his penis and it popped out of the slit in his boxers. But her friend was sent home to change because her skirt was above the knees (she didnt flash anyone). Blatant, just blatant fuckery.

  62. Seriously when did this site get invaded by the prude parade?

    Prude parade? Really?

    Not wanting to see some guys ass hanging out of his pants isn’t necessarily prudery. Shaming someone because they don’t want to see that is just as obnoxious as shaming someone for their clothing.

  63. Oh the old Chiara that we all love is back!

    Yo I been back for weeks but I am more learned now.

    Not wanting to see some guys ass hanging out of his pants isn’t necessarily prudery. Shaming someone because they don’t want to see that is just as obnoxious as shaming someone for their clothing.

    I’m not shaming someone for not wanting to see a guys ass hanging out, I don’t want to see a guys ass hanging out. What I was talking about was like a little bit of boxer shorts visible. I don’t mind a bit of that. Also she was talking about how she wished they would enforce rules to stop it happening. I mean it’s fine to be like ‘yo, I don’t wanna see no ass’ but if you take it to ‘yo, they should ban people from showing their ass’ well that’s a whole other story.

    I think the best solution for all this stuff is for everyone to just chill out. Take away the dress code, and stop being all weird about it. Then the kids will stop trying to act out and they’ll just wear whatever is fashionable. Who cares if it’s revealing? As long as the kids are in school and they’re learning stuff and having a good time, what’s the harm? Also part of school is about having fun. I mean that’s like 12/13 years of a kids life right there let her have some fun.

  64. none saying boys can’t wear their pants so low that their boxers are showing

    I think that’s actually covered by the rule that says your undergarments can’t show. I assume “undergarments” means bras and underpants, which includes boxers.

    But try finding, for example, a pair of girls’ shorts in the Juniors department that come below your fingertips. They are extremely difficult to find.

    They exist, but they’re called capris or bermuda shorts (comparable to boys shorts – ending right around the knee). I’m just being pedantic, but you can definitely get pants or skirts designed for girls in any length, they just all have different names. That’s separate from whether they should be required or not.

    Anyway I still don’t think its necessarily a bad thing to try to teach students to dress somewhat professionally, just like we try to teach them to act somewhat professionally in school (they’re usually not allowed to chew gum or curse in class, for example, which is something that IS allowed out in the real world). The environment of school is not really supposed to be exactly the same as the environment of “the real world”. But I think if the choices are having them dress unprofessionally or having their school day intermittently interrupted by someone making them feel bad about their outfit and their body, the latter is definitely worse.

  65. What’s undergarments in American-speak? I thought it meant bras.

    Generally it means both bras and underpants, so that you can refer to both with one word.

    In this specific context, judging from what Jill quoted in her post, it probably means both bars and underpants, because school administrators usually don’t want any of that to show.

  66. I’m not shaming someone for not wanting to see a guys ass hanging out, I don’t want to see a guys ass hanging out.

    You didn’t just imply that Lyndsay was a prude for not wanting to see someone’s underwear?

    Seriously when did this site get invaded by the prude parade?

    Sounds kind of shame-y to me.

  67. they’re usually not allowed to chew gum or curse in class, for example, which is something that IS allowed out in the real world)

    Those are things that I’ve never understood either. Again, all they’re about is petty authoritarian control

  68. again all they’re about is petty authoritarian control

    Ooh, how about ASKING to go to the bathroom? That is a big peeve of mine. I’ve told my kids if they have to go, then go.. Ask to be excused, for the sake of politeness but if it’s getting dire, then get up and GO. (I’ve also explained that when possible they should try to go during breaks but kids have little bladders that can fill up fast)

  69. Some teenagers *are* quite prude. Is there something wrong with this?

    “As long as the kids are in school and they’re learning stuff and having a good time, what’s the harm?”

    I generally agree. Maybe I’ve been in England long enough (almost two years) that it’s changed my view a bit. I still think things are too strict here. Almost all schools have uniforms and some schools have rules about wearing jewelery, make-up, “extreme” hair styles, etc. I mean wow, if students have to wear uniforms, they could at least be allowed to express themselves in other ways. And I do think making students follow these rules gets in the way of some students’ learning. So maybe I see North American dress codes as less strict than I used to.
    I do think their shorts requirement is quite long though. And I always felt like rules should be relaxed in June when it’s hot. I might be old-fashioned but it’s just hard for me to imagine schools with zero dress code.

    1. Some teenagers *are* quite prude. Is there something wrong with this?

      Nothing. There is something wrong, though, with insisting that everyone else cater to your personal preferences.

  70. Well, to be fair to Chiara, Lyndsay said she didn’t want to see boys in tank tops and wished that schools would enforce rules against them; then she basically made a “what’s next? sluts in bikinis?!” argument. I understand that some folks don’t like the word “prudish,” but Lyndsay’s position does seem sort of… well, not exactly shame-free.

  71. I’ve never liked it when people use “professional” dress or “teaching them how to dress professionally” in discussions of dress codes. It feels like a dog whistle for what we all really know people are trying to say: we don’t want students to dress like sluts, gangsters, and poor people.

    Of course, I have serious trouble with the idea of dress codes even in businesses and all the shaming that goes on with wearing yoga, sweatpants, and pj pants. I’ve never, ever been able to get used to clothing that isn’t immediately comfortable to me, and I apparently have a sensitive body. On the wrong day, my bras can cause stomach issues as can pants if they hug my hips (and no, we’re not talking too tightly; we’re talking “just keeping them up” strength). If I get hot, sweat pours off me, and I can get cramps.

    These are all physical issues and generally amount to less professional dress than dealing with body shaming “sluttiness,” but I feel sympathy for people that just want to wear what they want to wear and getting trashed for it.

  72. Ooh, how about ASKING to go to the bathroom? That is a big peeve of mine.

    Right? What kind of sadist says “no”?

  73. I generally agree. Maybe I’ve been in England long enough (almost two years) that it’s changed my view a bit. I still think things are too strict here. Almost all schools have uniforms and some schools have rules about wearing jewelery, make-up, “extreme” hair styles, etc.

    Well I’m from Wales myself and at my school we had a uniform, but we didn’t have a dress code apart from that so people would do what they wanted with the uniform and we get could still have our self expression within that so people still had their own style.

    And I’m not trying to dis on people who are ‘prudish’ as a personal preference, but just on people who want to enforce that on others.

    Personally I think they keep the dress-codes and the uniforms and the ‘professionalism’ and all this stuff because they want to enforce these petty social norms in order to keep kids minds from the real issues. If we didn’t inundate kids with all these rules and social orders then they might actually start thinking critically about different elements of society and they might start seeing through the bullshit, you know? And when that time comes, the shit’s gonna hit the fan for the suits who run the schools and the government.

  74. I’ve never liked it when people use “professional” dress or “teaching them how to dress professionally” in discussions of dress codes. It feels like a dog whistle for what we all really know people are trying to say: we don’t want students to dress like sluts, gangsters, and poor people.

    Also it reinforces that people don’t actually go to school to learn or become critical thinkers but rather to become good little automatons for the labour force.

  75. Ooh, how about ASKING to go to the bathroom? That is a big peeve of mine.

    Yep, that sucks. My favorite pet peeve from those is not having been allowed to carry pain medication for menstrual cramps and then the teachers giving students the stink eye when someone having bad cramps needs to see the nurse for the pain medication they weren’t allowed to carry themselves. When I was in junior high and high school, periods were far more miserable for me than they are now. But I often tolerated pain rather than have to ask to see the nurse.

  76. Speaking of professional dress codes, wasn’t there a thread here two or three years ago about advice given to women law students about how they should dress at law firms? At the time I was reading occasionally but not commenting, and I remember thinking how ridiculous most of the advice was. I can understand meeting certain professional dress standards if you’re appearing in court before a judge, or are at a deposition or client meeting, but every day in the office? Please. Thank God most firms stopped requiring everyone to wear suits every day 15 or 20 years ago.

    One of the more embarrassing conversations I had to have shortly after my transition in late April 2005, though, given the ambiguity of the written dress code for women (and the fact that at that time there was only one other female lawyer at the firm, a much older woman) was to ask the office administrator — who, thank God, was a woman,or I could never, ever have asked — whether on days when I was wearing a dress or skirt, I had to wear pantyhose year round, or could go bare-legged with sandals. Considering how I had been perceived by everyone until recently, I felt rather awkward, to say the least, in raising the issue. She actually didn’t know the answer, and had to circulate the question in her law office administrators’ email group, of all things, before she could decide whether displaying bare legs was appropriate for me. Eventually, after much consultation, my application was granted. The whole thing was absurd. Especially since I see women lawyers appear in court all the time now in the summer with bare legs and sandals.

  77. I’m with Jill on this. While Chiara is after all the same person who just about managed to derail a thread about older women by insulting virgins and otherwise virginal people, Lyndsay was a) the original shamer, and b) Lyndsay was using strawteenagers to do the shaming to begin with. (Note to Lyndsay: People who argue that teenage girls shouldn’t be shamed for how their bodies appear in certain types of clothing are totes not arguing that everyone should be allowed to come to school in bikinis.)

  78. She actually didn’t know the answer, and had to circulate the question in her law office administrators’ email group, of all things, before she could decide whether displaying bare legs was appropriate for me.

    Appropriate for just you or for women at the firm in general? Because if the first…uh…

    I mean, that’s just another thing to hate about the dress code. As someone was pointing out with the skirt thing above, even if a guy was to come to school in a skirt that was “appropriate” length, I doubt that he wouldn’t be told he was violating something.

  79. I’ve never, ever been able to get used to clothing that isn’t immediately comfortable to me, and I apparently have a sensitive body.

    Me too. In fact, to this day, it’s still a frequent source of arguments with my mother, who still tries to insist that I dress my upper body in ways that make me uncomfortable (I can’t wear sleeves, I can’t wear high collars without difficulty), because if I dress in a way that doesn’t make me physically uncomfortable, it attracts unwanted attention to my breasts… I get it that she cares how I am treated, but if I went through life dressing to avoid unwanted attention from disrespectful men, I would be miserable and possibly literally hate my life.

  80. even if a guy was to come to school in a skirt that was “appropriate” length, I doubt that he wouldn’t be told he was violating something.

    Guys in my high school used to come dressed in skirts and dresses for pep events, Halloween, and for fun. Never did get any shit from the administration. We also had at least 3 Trans students who never got shit. (from admin, I know for a fact the LGBT community felt less than loved by many classmates and teachers). But again, my school also had guys strip down in gym and no one pointed them to the locker rooms.

    The girls, however, got policed fairly regularly. For pajama pants and slippers in the winter; for shorts, skirts, and tops in the summer.

    My worst memory is from middle school when I had a uniform. The principal caught me and a few friends (all girls) with our shirts untucked. When we went to shove them in our pants he told us to unbutton and unzip our pants to so he could make sure we did it.

  81. Guys in my high school used to come dressed in skirts and dresses for pep events, Halloween, and for fun. Never did get any shit from the administration.

    Now that God-fearing school administrators throughout Heartland America have become more aware of the threat posed by the Trans Agenda, students assigned male at birth are getting very heavily policed about things like that, and the sort of “fun crossdressing event” that used to be fairly common — a lot of which I think can be both transphobic and misogynistic anyway — are being prohibited in some schools, because it’s against nature or whatever.

  82. I get it that she cares how I am treated, but if I went through life dressing to avoid unwanted attention from disrespectful men, I would be miserable and possibly literally hate my life.

    This really resonated with me. So-called “modesty” is used to police women’s bodies, but modesty is such a fuzzy concept. Sometimes it seems as though no matter what women wear, it’s labelled inappropriate.

    The length of shorts, dresses and skirts should extend below the fingertips with the arms straight at your side.

    What does this even mean? At the knee/below the knee/above the knee? Students should be coming to school to learn and to socialize with their peers, not to have their outfits appraised by administrators.

  83. Appropriate for just you or for women at the firm in general? Because if the first…uh…

    In theory, it applied to all women lawyers at the firm, but I was one of only two, and the other one was of an age at which I don’t think she would have considered going barelegged. So as a practical matter, it was about me. And I saw her email inquiry, which did expressly specify that I was a trans woman (I don’t even remember what term she actually used, probably something like “a transgender”; I’ve blocked it out!) who had just transitioned.

  84. Now that God-fearing school administrators throughout Heartland America have become more aware of the threat posed by the Trans Agenda, students assigned male at birth are getting very heavily policed about things like that

    I’m on the east coast in a firmly blue state, so that crap never really came here to a large degree. I won’t say shit never came up, I’m sure it did. It would be a shame if my school went to hell, the fairly lax approach to gender policing was probably the best bit.

  85. This really resonated with me. So-called “modesty” is used to police women’s bodies, but modesty is such a fuzzy concept. Sometimes it seems as though no matter what women wear, it’s labelled inappropriate.

    Very true. Yesterday was the 13th anniversary of a sexual assault that happened to me when I was wearing much more clothing (t-shirt w/ short sleeves and jeans that fully covered me) than I now wear during this time of year. I was in high school at the time. The ridiculousness of it was that I blamed myself for a long time because I had worn a white t-shirt that day, knowing that men were assaulting women and girls wearing white shirts. I can’t remember if I wore white that day because I was sick of wearing black t-shirts in May (which is hot here), or if I just forgot not to wear white. Whatever my reasons were, it just goes to show that no matter what we wear, it’s “wrong” somehow, so we should probably just with what is right for us.

  86. Now that God-fearing school administrators throughout Heartland America have become more aware of the threat posed by the Trans Agenda, students assigned male at birth are getting very heavily policed about things like that

    I’m very sorry to hear that. Religious authorities and religious schools should not be policing gender identity – that’s none of their business.

  87. When boys have their dress policed it is usually for gender conformity and submission to authority. It is only girls who are having their dress policed so as not to be sexually enticing, which suggests that the authority figures don’t think boys’ clothing can be sexually enticing

    Boy do get busted for tank-tops and tight jeans especially as more fitted menswear comes back into fashion. The difference is the unsubtle implication behind the reprimanding. A girl in tight pants is told to be less of a slut while a boy in tight pants is told to be less of a faggot. Boy sexiness is policed via gender roles. Example: A former classmate wore a handmade, 90’s-era-X-Men-cartoon, Cyclops costume for spirit day which mean blue tights under yellow hot pants. Everyone loved it, and he got quite a bit of vocal appreciation from the girls that was less about the costume and more about what a few years of cross country does to a person’s thighs. The cheering when he did a few lunges for a group of girls during lunch attracted the attention of the vice principal who made him change for violating dress code, but not before giving him a blistering public lecture about dignity, manhood, and how could he possibly respect himself after going out in public dressed like that.

  88. Ooh, how about ASKING to go to the bathroom? That is a big peeve of mine.

    Right? What kind of sadist says “no”?

    @EG:
    my kindergarten teacher denied us the right to go to the toilet. She would make us mop up the mess we made on our chairs, using old newspapers. I do not know why she did this. As she was my first teacher I thought it was normal. I guess she was trying to train us to control ourselves. Or she was a sadist. A few years later I lived in an apartment block on the 11th floor and had to take an elevator to get home. Because it was impossible to go to the toilet during the time I was in the elevator, I developed a bladder control problem and became so stressed at the thought of taking the elevator that I climbed 11 flights of stairs each day twice a day. Adults with power over children often have no idea of the damage they do, well-meaning or not.

  89. @ Annaleigh: Please don’t blame yourself. It’s heartbreaking that victims are so often made to feel guilty for the cruel actions of perpetrators. If someone wants to be violent, it doesn’t matter what you’re wearing – they’re just looking for any target. Clothing should never be considered a “moral choice.”

  90. Having gone to a school at a time and place where dress codes were not done these stories blow me away.

    In high school I regularly wore spaghetti strap tank tops and hot shorts or a mini-skirt, and never got anything but polite compliments on my clothes. One of my schoolmates had an outfit that consisted of a clear plastic mini-dress with a nice black bra & panty set underneath. The boys definitely noticed her, but I never heard of her being harassed at all. I recall one of the teachers commenting to someone that some of the kids at our school wore fashions more extreme than most runway models, and yet somehow the world did not end, and we had consistently the best academic scores in the city.

    In my opinion high school can and should be a place where kids can feel safe to experiment with their clothes and appearance. There may be no other time in their lives when they can have so much freedom to look however they want. Frankly I miss it.

  91. I support the idea of actually distracting dress codes–clothes falling off your body aren’t okay, clothes that are hateful aren’t okay, not actually wearing a complete outfit isn’t okay–from guys with those giant tears down the side of their shirts to girls wearing stomach-baring attire.

    IF–if it’s fair. It’s not about whether or not they’re being sexy, it’s about whether or not they’re going to spend the whole time fucking around with their clothes and not paying attention.

    If every homeroom teacher does a check every morning, according to the code, fine. But if not? Girls, especially girls with really adult/curvy bodies, don’t need school to make them feel like shit; the rest of the world has that covered juuuuust fine.

  92. continuing…

    I realize I commented mostly on female fashions in my post, so I just want to note that the sartorial freedom at my school extended to the guys as well. Several of my male high school friends frequently wore makeup, nail polish and skirts or dresses in addition to more traditionally male styles.

  93. it’s about whether or not they’re going to spend the whole time fucking around with their clothes and not paying attention.

    That’s about behavior, not about clothing. If they’re not paying attention, dress codes won’t solve that.

  94. @EG

    But there are some clothes that are essentially designed to be played with, pulled, tied, untied, fiddled… largely women’s clothes, but boys have pants that are designed and worn to do nothing but be fucked with all day–pull them up, fix your belt, yank them around, have them slide down, adjust in your seat repeatedly, put your backpack down, pull them up…

    I work with teenage boys at the moment and some of them literally are constantly fiddling with their pants. They’re distracted, the constant movement is distracting to the other kids, there’s no damn reason for it except to be a pain in the ass, so wear pants that FIT.

  95. “As long as the kids are in school and they’re learning stuff and having a good time…..”

    When has this ever happened?

    At Stuyvesant High School, most of the time. It’s a really, really good school. I know a lot of people who went there, and all of them learned plenty, while most of them had a good time, or a least a better time than students going to other schools.

  96. @karak

    Yes, but will they not fiddle with something even without the pants? Find a piece of paper to tear up, doodle, play with their hair or jewelry, etc.?

    I just don’t see it…

  97. I don’t see why the adults think it is a good idea to say that these girls may be raped etc. I’m a heterosexual male and I was never so completely distracted by girls that I couldn’t focus on subjects I was interested in and there were quite a few good looking girls around. The dress code itself seems normal though.

  98. She then went on to say that the dress code was only instituted for my protection, because there are a lot of bad men outside school,

    Aside from the absolutely horrid statement itself, I would have had to point out the obvious (and likely would have gotten myself sent home. Not that I would have cared, I spent more time out of school than in it)

    Who cares about bad men outside of school when it’s INSIDE the school you’ve giving me shit about. That’s about as stupid as telling me to dress appropriately while in Texas because there are bad men in New Mexico.

  99. I have a pretty “good” (horrifying) clothing-policing story.

    I went to well-known public schools in a very wealthy area of a blue state.

    I was bullied and sexually harassed badly in middle school–the focus was constantly on my body. All day, every day, it was all I heard from people. Slut, dyke, whore, etc. In the halls, in class, in front of teachers (and once by a teacher), everywhere. I became extremely depressed.

    One day it got so bad in class (again, teacher right there at his desk, doing nothing!) that I left and asked to speak to the counsellor, as my parents had encouraged me to do. The guidance counsellor called me into her office to talk to her about it.

    I sat across from her wearing the standard 90s outfit of jeans and a white tank top. She asked me why I was having such a hard time, and I broke down crying telling her how bad it was– how I was ashamed to be at school, how I didn’t want to go to class anymore, how I felt really depressed, like I couldn’t take it all anymore. I hunched over, I guess, as I talked to her.

    After I finished, she was quiet for a few seconds. Then she nodded her head, smiled sadly, and said, “Honey, I can see right down your shirt.”

    I am not kidding you. I did not ask for help again.

    Man, I got more upset than I thought typing this story and thinking about it again.

  100. Okay, I was not shaming anyone. I shared my prudeness *as a teenager* and it was mainly directed towards how boys dress actually. I’m not sure how I feel about girls wearing bikinis but I was interested in a bit of discussion on the thought. But apparently anyone who disagrees on this thread is shaming women.
    In a way, I’m not opposed to everyone wearing what they want whenever they want. It would make for a much more free society. But we do have social rules about what people can wear in workplaces, restaurants etc and I don’t quite see why schools should be any different. I never liked the “no hats” rule but one high school I know of thinks they did notice a behaviour difference when they stopped students from wearing hats.
    As for catering to teenagers who are prudes, no matter what you do you are catering to someone in a way. It is possible some girls feel pressured to show a lot of skin for example and not exactly comfortable with it.
    Anyway, that’s where I’m coming from.

  101. They’re distracted, the constant movement is distracting to the other kids, there’s no damn reason for it except to be a pain in the ass, so wear pants that FIT.

    But nobody has suggested that this is what is going on at Stuyvesant. Aside from the fact that even without the clothing, kids doodle, fidget, tear up pieces of paper, play with their hair, jiggle their feet, fiddle with necklaces, etc. Because they’re people. I fidgeted all through high school and college and graduate school, and somehow my superhuman classmates managed to learn anyway.

  102. But we do have social rules about what people can wear in workplaces, restaurants etc and I don’t quite see why schools should be any different.

    Because schools are not workplaces. Students are not professionals. They are not there to do a job for somebody else’s benefit; they are not there to obey petty rules. They are there to receive an education, and it is in our and their best interests that they remain there, so we should not make remaining there dependent on accepting unnecessary bullshit rules.

    Schools are also not restaurants. The students cannot leave them whenever they see fit or if they don’t want to conform to the dress code.

    Schools are schools. “Student” is not a job. There is no reason whatsoever for the same petty authoritarian rules to apply.

  103. Schools are arguably preparing students for work (though I’m not sure how true that actually is).

    I could’ve asked what if male students all want to go to school topless? Maybe it’s irrelevant but I thought I’d put it out there anyway.

  104. @EG,

    ” they are not there to obey petty rules.”

    I don’t think that statement is actually true. I’m pretty sure kids are also in school to learn to obey petty rules. There’s more petty social rules outside of hs than in it, ime. Otherwise high school would do jack shit to prepare you for that 7 – 2 at Mcdonalds’. I think the dress code for school rules are next to useless myself. I have seen many, many boys snagged by the ‘pull up your pants’ one. Been a decade since I was in hs though.

  105. Schools are arguably preparing students for work (though I’m not sure how true that actually is).

    You’re right. It’s arguable, and I’d argue against that. The point of education is not, should not be to churn out good little conforming wage-earners for corporate bosses. I am opposed to any strictures designed to make that the goal of education.

    I could’ve asked what if male students all want to go to school topless?

    What if they do? I don’t have a problem with it. I don’t have a problem with female students going to school topless. Bottomless I have a problem with because of hygiene issues, as well as sexual harassment issues, but I don’t find the male torso–or the female torso–particularly objectionable.

  106. “I don’t have a problem with it. I don’t have a problem with female students going to school topless.”

    Fair enough. Personally I’m a bit of a naturist (I’ve changed a lot since high school) and I personally don’t have a problem with people going to school topless. However, most people would be more uncomfortable with it and I don’t think these students should be forced to see fellow students topless. I guess I think society just isn’t ready for it.

  107. I guess I think society just isn’t ready for it.

    I agree, which is why I think it’s probably a pointless question. We don’t need a dress code specifying that boys and girls in high school must not go topless, because by and large, with very few exceptions, they’re not going to. That’s not what dress codes are for.

    Fox News headline tomorrow: “College professor advocates students going topless.”

    “Apparently the daughter of two COMMUNISTS is even now TEACHING at a well-respected college!”

    “Not only is she advocating that students go topless, she TAKES POINTS OFF their papers if they forget to number the pages or if they skip lines between paragraphs or if they leave off the Works Cited page!”

    “A perfect example of the slutty freedom-hating characteristic of the left!”

  108. Aw. I had a post agreeing with Lyndsey and imagining the Fox News report on me and it’s in mod.

  109. My high school’s dress code was very over-the-top (slacks, shirts, ties for boys, something comparable to what’s described for Stuy for women, minus t-shirts), but at least they came down on the guys equally hard — guys got “written up” constantly for having stubble (we were supposed to be clean shaven at all times) and untucked shirts. Women were written up far more rarely.

    The difference, of course, is that the guy’s dress code was about “professionalism” and “cleanliness,” whereas the women’s dress code was more or less blatant slut-shaming. So even if the code is equally enforced, it’s still very problematic.

  110. What the heck does “good taste” even mean??

    I’m cool with covering up the midriff and shoulders, but I HATE, HATE the skirt rule. You can wear a nice skirt and it might not be the exact length of your arms. People do not make clothes with that in mind nor do people shop like that.

  111. “Professionalism” my ass. Since when are camo-pants and “No Fear” t-shirts and Hello Kitty necklaces “professional”? (and when was the last time the average american high school banned those?). There’s no way the “no tank tops/no short shorts/no short skirts” rule is anything but slut-shaming and gender policing, or that other schools’ totally subjective “no ‘extreme’ hair/makeup” rule is anything but a mechanism to encourage conformity to (often classist) mainstream social beauty norms.

    I never understood the “but the kids will be DISTRACTED!!1” argument. What, like the entire student body’s gonna be standing in a circle around a girl in a tank-top staring slack-jawed for 8 hours a day? What’s a student in a short skirt or exposed shoulders when kids nowadays are just a click away from like, butt-nekkid hardcore porn anyway? (and, let’s be honest with ourselves, most teens look at porn.) Or perhaps a bus-ride from the beach, where in some places it’s perfectly normal for women or men to be in nothing but a thong. Is a short skirt really “shocking” or “distracting” anymore, or are the prudes in the older generation(s) who are in power projecting their own outdated notions of what’s “immodest” or “revealing”? (and no I’m not gonna feel guilty about insulting someone who’s “prude” if they’re using their social power to shame children, reinforce binary gender norms, and restrict the choices of others based on said prudery)

  112. I’m originally from England and we too had a uniform; thing that caused issues was that until 6th form (most people graduated before that after their GCSEs), girls were not permitted to wear pants, only skirts (The issue of guys in skirts never came up in my time there.) If you want strict, you only need to look to 80-90s High School.

  113. I just wanted to link to this piece, which digs into a data analysis finding that 1 in 5 people stopped last year by NYPD was a teen between 14-18. Among the teens quoted in the piece is a Stuyvesant student, explaining why he and his classmates don’t get stopped and frisked:

    We don’t look suspicious. We don’t look like scary criminals or terrorists, or whatever. We’re very unthreatening people,” said Benedict Bolton, a 15-year-old freshman at Stuyvesant who is white. “We’re a bunch of, to be honest, skinny white kids.

  114. My high school’s dress code was used explicitly for gender policing. went to school with a young man who engaged in a battle with the administration over whether he was allowed to wear a skirt to school (we’re talking the loose calf-length type). I did not know him well, so I have no idea if he was trans, experimenting with gender expression, or just wanted to make a point about the dress code. The code had a broad provision about clothing not being “disruptive”, which was used as grounds to forbid him to wear skirts.

  115. I’m wondering about how feminist this blog really is. Here’s a school with a totally non-sexist dress code (though whether dresses and skirts–of appropriate length–would be acceptable for boys, is dubious) and you’re complaining!

    Save the complaints for when there’s really some unequal treatment, OK?

    1. I’m wondering about how feminist this blog really is. Here’s a school with a totally non-sexist dress code (though whether dresses and skirts–of appropriate length–would be acceptable for boys, is dubious) and you’re complaining!

      You’re right. School administrators telling girls that they’re dressed like they’re going to get raped is totally not a feminist issue. Pointing out that dress codes are often used to police girls’ perceived sexuality and boys’ perceived gender non-conformity makes this blog “not really feminist.”

      You know, between this thread and the “Jesus hates gays” one, I am working with some frayed nerves. And you have been a fairly consistent shithead in your comments here! So you are welcome to take your ass to a more truly feminist place if this discussion isn’t important enough for you. Don’t let the door hitcha.

  116. Save the complaints for when there’s really some unequal treatment, OK?

    First World Problems? They’re still Problems. It’s an intricate tapestry, yo.

  117. At some point a school needs to make a decision to either let kids where whatever the hell they want, or institute uniforms. Then they can have total dictatorial control over everything you can wear and there are no issues with “well that shirt is inappropriate for YOU.”

  118. I’m always horrified to read body-policing stories like these. It reminds me of a girl in my elementary school. In 4th grade she looked like a HS freshman; by 6th grade she looked like a senior or older. There were rumors about her. I didn’t know her very well and with the rumors (even though I wondered how people would know these things), I didn’t really want to know her, I guess. At the time, it wasn’t enough on my radar screen for me to raise it as a concern with any adults, and I doubt any of the adults in my life would have said anything helpful (probably something along the lines of “you can’t know whether it’s true and you shouldn’t pass on the rumors, but you don’t want a bad reputation yourself, so avoid her just to be safe”–which is what I did). Ugh. I’m retroactively disgusted with myself and vow to bring up the issue with my own kids so that they understand where these rumors come from.

    Adults in schools have to manage any attraction they feel toward students, which can arise regardless of how a student dresses. As a high school student, I remember sitting in class and observing as a very attractive and scantily-clad student came within the gaze of our teacher, a 30-something single guy. His eyes widened briefly, then he shut them tightly and shook his head.

    So yeah, he was distracted briefly, but that was his responsibility and he dealt with it. That’s much better than turning school into an anxiety-inducing horror fest for students with certain body types, as described by commenters here and on the NY Times article. If necessary, people who get boners can take the helpful hint from George Burns’ boner and wear a double breasted suit http://www.paleycenter.org/collection/item/?q=Tracey+Ullman+Show&p=1&item=T:43799

  119. I’m wondering about how feminist this blog really is. Here’s a school with a totally non-sexist dress code (though whether dresses and skirts–of appropriate length–would be acceptable for boys, is dubious) and you’re complaining!

    It’s true; feminists have no business taking any interest in freedom of expression issues. There’s certainly no way that body policing or an insistence on slogans that are in good taste could possibly have a gendered effect. Everyone knows that feminism isn’t at all acceptable unless it’s in good taste.

  120. im a middleschool para myself, my school has a similar dress code, and it is unevenly enforced—im not aware of any adults making such dumbshit comments to the students, tho—

    i agree w/ everyone on this thread that these rules are mostly to teach ppl to lick the boots of authority at an early age—and i think much of it is the result of religious “revival” in america—revival, that is, of old-school “holiness” rules—and of unquestioning obedience to church authority—i actually heard an evangelist say at one “revival meeting” ten years ago that martin luther was wrong to oppose catholic authority(!)—this from an assembly of god minister—-sheesh!—-he also said that the founding fathers of this nation should have continued to submit to the british crown—couldnt believe what i was hearing—and hate to admit i didnt get out then and there—i should have
    i went to juior high and high school in the 70’s when tube tops and short shorts were all the rage—there was never any of this modesty bullshit back then

    sorry this got a little long

  121. my boys go to a private school with a uniform and there are even uniform companies that make dresses that wouldnt pass the knee test.

    one school in particular in my area uses empress-waisted jumpers all the way up to high school! the hem doesnt even make it over the horribly named modesty shorts girls wear so they arent flashing everyone every time them move. it’s disturbing seeing young women wearing an outfit that is more appropriate for a five year old.

  122. Yeah…when my uncle was a teenager, they used to call Catholic school uniform skirts “fuck me” skirts, and when I was young, my friend’s little sister, who went to a private uniform school and is six tall was harassed every. single. day. on her way to and from school, including being followed. School uniforms on girls are one of the most sexualized costumes in our society.

  123. I have Feelings regarding this, as my middle school has an almost identical dress code. Yeah. Middle school. Let’s not shock the boys with shoulders; it’s a real turn on to twelve year olds, ya know! So I have to wear shorts that come down almost to my knees and cardigans (which I hatehatehate) with spaghetti strap dresses. Along with having to shove bra straps under the sleeves, which is incredibly annoying AND THEY KEEP SLIPPING.
    /rant

  124. I’m originally from England and we too had a uniform; thing that caused issues was that until 6th form (most people graduated before that after their GCSEs), girls were not permitted to wear pants, only skirts (The issue of guys in skirts never came up in my time there.) If you want strict, you only need to look to 80-90s High School.

    I got to secondary school (age 12-16 in UK) a year or so after that school started allowing trousers for girls instead of skirts. Couldn’t be identical to the boys tho, the trousers had to be a more awkward-to-find shade of navy blue rather than the simpler black that the boys got to wear (finally changed by the time I was in my final year). We had to fight to wear shorts instead of skirts+modesty knickers for PE (gym) in the mixed group while I was there though (my school vaguely ability streamed for PE, the girls-only and boys-only groups did usual team sports while the mixed group was for those of us who were terrible at sport or highly disruptive)

    I find it amusing now every time I read about a school no longer allowing girls to wear skirts to stop the endless fights over length, remembering how recently (mid-late 90s) we had to fight to not have to wear skirts… The sheer amount of bullshit over school uniforms in the UK is astonishing tho, dictating hair, shoes, (in my case) uncomfortable fabrics etc.

  125. I remember my high school dress code:

    – No profanity.

    (I actually did wear something I think would count as profanity from time to time, mostly due to not paying attention to what I was wearing; nobody cared).

    – No advertisements for alcohol / cigarettes

    Note: it was Canada so lots of high school students were of legal drinking age. Oddly illegal drugs were fine.

    – No tank tops for boys.

    This one was instituted shortly after I left and remains a minor controversy because it’s one that’s clearly unequally applied. Official reason was because of the social implications of wearing a “wifebeater”. I suspect it was really a social class marker they didn’t want to deal with.

    – No “beachwear”.

    The last one was unequally applied I think, in that when they’re dry most boys’ swimsuits were indistinguishable at a casual glance from shorts. I lived in a beach town so unambiguous beachwear cases did come up from time to time when somebody came back in a hurry from a long lunch or something. The ambiguous ones were a problem (eg. I remember a debate about a style of backless tops which I don’t know the name for. That was eventually allowed.

    The whole thing was debated though. I remember horror stories when the new vice principle came and at his last school he went around with a ruler to check whether skirt lengths met whatever arbitrary standard they had at that other school, which sounded pretty creepy to me. This was just a rumour, but he definitely promoted the idea of instituting uniforms.

  126. Oh. My. Goodness. EG, in junior high I had to wear a short plaid skirt, as opposed to the long jumper in elementary school. This was a public school in a poor neighborhood, and the uniform was adopted to both curb gang activity (I have some complicated thoughts on this) and to reduce “competitive dress” (read: sexy) among girls.

    As I walked home to the sweet sounds of every kind of cat-call imaginable (in addition to having to run away, hide in stores, and endure hours of creepy conversation, and once have to kick someone in the groin who tried to pull me into his car), the bitter irony of my school’s attempt to protect me by sending me out in one of the United States’ most iconic symbols of the fucked-up sexual expectations placed on young girls was definitely not lost on me.

  127. @EG

    The point of education is not, should not be to churn out good little conforming wage-earners for corporate bosses.

    I think it absolutely is about that. I only went to school, and then college, to get a job. That’s the main reason most people go.

    Kids need to be given rules of behavior. School is a job, barring that, it’s a sentence. You dress how they tell you to dress because that’s the price you pay to become a member of the mainstream society.

    I’m honestly a little baffled about the hang-wringing over “crushing” self-expression. Kids don’t spend that much time in school, they can go home and wear their tube tops and ripped jeans or whatever else just fine. If going 6 hours without that is traumatic, then they have bigger issues than a dress code. And they’re going to be in for a HELL of a culture shock when they leave high school and now they have to wear a suit or a uniform each day.

  128. So you are welcome to take your ass to a more truly feminist place if this discussion isn’t important enough for you. Don’t let the door hitcha.

    Thunk.

  129. Fighting. . .urge. . .to make. . .reference. . .to the last. . .Feministe thread. . .about. . .fashion.

    Damnit paralepsis. You foiled me again.

  130. I’m honestly a little baffled about the hang-wringing over “crushing” self-expression. Kids don’t spend that much time in school, they can go home and wear their tube tops and ripped jeans or whatever else just fine. If going 6 hours without that is traumatic, then they have bigger issues than a dress code. And they’re going to be in for a HELL of a culture shock when they leave high school and now they have to wear a suit or a uniform each day.

    Um, honestly, even with the way schools are structured now, they don’t really prepare you for the “real world.” Students who will moan about the unfairness of only getting 7 absences for a semester until they fail still magically manage to make it to work every day. People who show up in pajama pants every day seem to understand they need to dress nicely when they’re giving presentations in front of the class.

    It’s like someone said above; at work, you get a wage. Nobody says you have to go, but if you want money, you need to be there. School (at least in my country) is required, however. It should also be a place to foster creativity.

    And, honestly, one can even argue that uniform and suit requirements for jobs are, in themselves, not a great thing. When you think about jobs that require a uniform, you’re often looking at jobs that want to squash every ounce of creativity out of their employees as much as possible. And suits and “professional dress” are largely about class marking (and based on my own experiences, I would say a bit ableist as well).

  131. i have to agree with karak. again. part of the appeal of a uniform (over maybe a subject “dress code”) is that there is very little doubt about what a child is going to wear that morning. you grab your shirt, your black/brown shoes, white/tan/black socks, pants or skirt and you’re done. as a parent, it’s awesome and i know there is no amount of “creativity” getting squashed – this isnt the uniform episode of the simpsons. what does get quashed is the tendency to act overly zany and how one would act “on their own time” – the older kids do act a little too casual and there is a marked difference in behaviour in the lower levels. But it’s not about quashing creativity and spirit but saying that school time is a time to learn, a time to listen to what your elders have to teach you, to understand that they need to “accomplish [their] work faithfully and diligently.”* it’s a waste of their time, and their teachers’ (and ultimately the parents’ when they have to get on their kids for doing work that should have been completed during the school hours) if a child spends all their time at school socializing and “being seen” instead of focusing on the task at hand.

    again, at my boys’ school, there is more debate about what the kids are wearing on free dress day than any other day of the month. cartoon pictures on shirts are ok, but not characters from a show? skinny jeans are ok but not capris? the little girls will wear sleeve-less easter dresses, but the older gals cant wear anything that “revealing?”

    *part of the school prayer said every morning and something that can be particularly hard for the kids to grasp.

    1. @ jillian
      kids and everybody else these days have less and less time to BE zany and do what they want—and i kinda suspect “free dress day” is such a big deal because its so restrictive the rest of the month

      ive said it before—i grew up in the 70’s and the increasingly restrictive culture of today really bothers me—and i think that 20 years of religious “revival” is partly to blame—-

  132. Kids don’t spend that much time in school, they can go home and wear their tube tops and ripped jeans or whatever else just fine. If going 6 hours without that is traumatic

    HAHAHAHAHA

    Students don’t spend that much time in school????

    Seven and a half hours a day (NOT six), five days a week—almost as much as a 9-to-5 job. I’d say that’s a lot of time.

  133. Since I object to school prayers as well, I’m not impressed by the values they seek to instill either.

    There is no reason to infringe on students’ freedom of expression. It doesn’t have anything to do with the “real world.” The idea that young people are so stupid that they won’t grasp the fact that things they could do at school are not things they can do at work is bizarre; further, school is not a job. It is for the benefit of the students, and self-expression and self-construction through clothing are two of the most common things people–particularly young people–do.

    My high school did not have a dress code. I regularly went to school in lycra mini-skirts. Other students regularly wore baggy ripped jeans. I wore ripped up fishnet stockings and motorcycle boots. And magically, we all managed to learn. Magically, none of us has ever been reported to have lost a job because we didn’t grasp that we should dress a certain way to perform it.

    Uniforms are about quashing individuality. Suits are about establishing class privilege. Institutions that require uniformity are not institutions I want to be educating children.

    If a school or a teacher can’t get kids to pay attention and learn, the problem is not what the kids are wearing.

  134. If going 6 hours without that is traumatic, then they have bigger issues than a dress code. And they’re going to be in for a HELL of a culture shock when they leave high school and now they have to wear a suit or a uniform each day.

    By your logic, at least with respect to Stuyvesant students — since I would guess that close to 100% of them go on to 4-year colleges — there should be dress codes imposed at colleges, because the students will be in for a culture shock once they graduate and go to work, assuming they don’t go on to further education.

    Good luck with that, Karak.

    Your argument is thoroughly absurd. Not just for Stuyvesant, either.

  135. EG’s first comment was spot on. Students administer their own dress codes, in addition to the official ones. If you don’t believe this, ask any poor kid going to school in a middle-class or better neighborhood.
    Students police bodies, too. My neighbor who wore the DD was “Jugs” to the student body, I was “Freak”, and Goddess only knows what other students had to deal with.
    Teachers and admins do, indeed, hassle girls. I’ve been reprimanded for sitting with my legs open in a dress more times than I can count. A uniform is the best answer, since students will make some overpriced brand name a uniform anyway, and teachers should shut up and mind their own business about students’ bodies. The kids catch far too much hell from each other.

  136. Actually uniforms per se can be really useful to work in. I’ve worn uniform in a very physical job for many years and when it’s well designed, it was far more preferable then me wearing my own clothes.

    Also, if you have a messy job, it’s good to be given clothes that will get stained rather then ruining your own wardrobe and will stand up to frequent hot washes. And uniform wearing job = equals job wear you’re not allowed/encouraged to be creative is a bit of a sweeping statement.

    School uniform is hugely debatable, but I would strongly object to the sweeping statements made about uniform wearing, particularly as they seem to come from a rather narrow perspective. I get that there are many lurkers out there, but the only commenters who ever mention their job on here seem to be academics or lawyers.

  137. School is not a messy job. The issue is not about jobs that require uniforms, because being a student is not a job. The issue is about institutions that require uniforms, institutions that people have no choice about being at. I can think of a few. None of them are good models for educating children.

  138. @Donna L:

    Sooo… you’re saying that since there isn’t a dress code in college, having a dress code in high school is damaging because that’s the only time they can express themselves, even though they could totally do that in college. They can also do it every weekend, after school, and during the American 3 month summer, 2 week winter break, and so on.

    There’s plenty of creativity to be had outside of school. Again, not being able to wear spaghetti straps or ripped up jeans is not a trial, it’s not a tragedy. At best, it’s somewhat disappointing and frustrating.

  139. Sooo… you’re saying that since there isn’t a dress code in college, having a dress code in high school is damaging .

    Actually, no. I was saying that your justification for dress codes made no sense whatsoever. It’s your burden in this argument to justify the imposition of the dress code in question, not mine to prove a negative by demonstrating that they’re unnecessary.

  140. I will also point out that my dress-code-less yet successful high school an excellent cognate to Stuyvesant, because it and Stuyvesant consider each other to be rival institutions.

    I’m also going to quote Katha Pollitt here, in an essay I’ve always admired:

    Uniforms are promoted as money-savers–an average ensemble costs between $100 and $200. But this is overstated, because kids still need the clothes they wear now, for after school, weekends, church. For school, they still need coats, jackets, boots, sneakers, hairpins, ribbons–so the class distinctions uniforms are supposed to erase can easily be transposed onto those items. Besides, if the Board of Ed can force parents to spend money in particular ways on their children, why not force them to do something that will help their children learn, like buying $100 to $200 worth of children’s books? That the Board of Ed has promised to pay for uniforms for kids who can’t afford them means that the school system will have even less money to pay for textbooks, library books, art supplies, musical instruments, athletic equipment, after-school programs.

    Despite some claims–most prominently from Long Beach, California, which credits a move to school-color clothing in the schools in 1994 with reducing absences and disciplinary problems–there is no research, none, that shows uniforms improve academic performance. I’m suspicious of the Long Beach stats to: …the change in the dress code was part of a whole package of improvements.

    They also represent something more, and worse: the regimentation of childhood as a preparation for the regimentation of adult life….Like most grown-ups, I’m not thrilled at every item I see on every child, including my own…, but kids acting out through dress is an old tradition, and one that speaks much better for our country than the parts that come clad in uniforms–the military, McDonald’s, sports teams, prisons, the police or for that matter the parochial schools and super-elite private schools that have long made their students dress alike.

    The fact is that upper-class adults–adults with power–have yet to opt for uniforms for themselves. Uniforms are almost always something inflicted on the less powerful by their so-called “superiors.”

  141. Again, not being able to wear spaghetti straps or ripped up jeans is not a trial, it’s not a tragedy. At best, it’s somewhat disappointing and frustrating.

    Why inflict disappointment and frustration on kids? How will that help them?

    Again: even if there were evidence that dress codes and uniforms helped kids academically, there is nothing indicating that Stuyvesant students’ academic performance was suffering.

  142. They can also do it every weekend, after school, and during the American 3 month summer, 2 week winter break, and so on.

    There’s plenty of creativity to be had outside of school.

    I’m not sure how this matters. Saying “they have freedom of expression at other times” doesn’t address the question of why they should have to have that freedom abridged during this time.

  143. Basically, a lot of this guff about “OMG CULTURE SHOCK WHAT ABOUT THE REAL WORLD” sounds like a thinly veiled whine of “It’s not fair. Grown-ups don’t get to have freedom and fun, so why should kids?”

    Well, maybe we grown-ups should a) stop inflicting our constraints on others, and b) start clamoring for some freedom and fun for ourselves, so we aren’t such jealous babies about the few freedoms kids have.

  144. @ jillian
    kids and everybody else these days have less and less time to BE zany and do what they want—and i kinda suspect “free dress day” is such a big deal because its so restrictive the rest of the month

    but again, i dont see anything quashing the spirit of the kids in uniform. the boys still play football in their long sleeves and ties. im looking at a group of third grade girls hanging up side down on the monkey bars. the kids i see everyday show their spirit and personalities everyday no matter what they are wearing. but on the whole the school is not as restrictive in other areas: some boys have moppy hair and several girls have pink highlights and have had them all year long.

    And i mention the prayer because it is a religious school (that takes all comers) and they are words students say everyday and there is something to take from it even if you dont follow the creed all the way. i think everyone can agree that working hard to the best of your ability and using time wisely are qualities to strive for.

  145. The footnote to the Pollitt essay notes, by the way, that in 2000, the Long Beach school “backed away from their more extravagant claims for uniforms” and also loosened up the dress code.

  146. i think everyone can agree that working hard to the best of your ability and using time wisely are qualities to strive for.

    Depends on what you’re working on and what “wisely” means. Not every task deserves the best of my ability and a little foolishness is a fine thing.

    i dont see anything quashing the spirit of the kids in uniform.

    Things can happen even without your seeing them. Even while boys are playing football.

  147. I am so late to this thread, but does anyone care to discuss this:

    But try finding, for example, a pair of girls’ shorts in the Juniors department that come below your fingertips

    Why is it that it’s so difficult to find girls’ shorts (or, hell, women’s shorts and skirts for that matter) that cover a little more of the leg? I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with wearing short shorts or skirts, but it’s frustrating trying to find shorts and skirts that fit me in the way that I like them to. It seems like girls’ clothing is getting more and more revealing and that it’s difficult to find alternatives.

    Also, it’s my memory that the dress code was enforced on the poor kids and girls who were overweight and dared to wear the same clothing as the other girls. Anyone else remember this?

  148. The more I think about it, the more I suspect that school uniforms are just an easy Band-Aid solution to problems that adults aren’t really interested in fixing (hello, inequality and sexualization!). But they sure give the illusion of efficacy!

    Uniforms didn’t stop my friends from getting mixed up in gangs. They didn’t stop kids making fun of kids with Payless shoes. They didn’t stop my friends from getting jumped on the way home. They didn’t make our parents less poor. And now, ten years later and with the power of Facebook, I can say that on the whole, it didn’t make us more prepared for professional careers (because they don’t change any of our statistically relevant factors for success).

    Also, if we feel like we need to teach kids to dress appropriately for their future lives, shouldn’t it be a gradual process that incorporates their own tastes and learning how to choose clothing appropriately for their bodies? Or would that be insufficiently authoritarian for some adults in the school system? (because let me tell you, it took me YEARS to figure out that there were professional clothes that suited my body, instead of stuffing my rack of doom into endless button-up shirts that don’t suit me for every job interview)

  149. [Just a very brief derail: God, who would have thought that Stuyvesant would be in the news twice in as many days, in the way it is now. (If you do a search, do not click through to any of the awful photos. It’s one of the worst things I’ve ever seen in my life.)]

  150. Donna, how horrible and what does it say about our society that I was relieved to find out it was that the poor victim of that horrible man was a graduate of Stuyvesant? When I checked the news, I was bracing myself for a school shooting or an explosion of some kind or something like that.

  151. Uniforms are almost always something inflicted on the less powerful by their so-called “superiors.”

    E.G – I’m sure it’s the opposite of what you intend, but you’re coming across as incredibly condescending to people in uniformed jobs, telling them that practical workwear makes them some kind of subjugated being.

  152. That is indeed not what I intend. I am sorry for the implication. What I do intend to make clear is that the decision to wear uniforms is usually one handed down from on high to working class people; it is usually not one that is decided upon by the uniform-wearers themselves. It is not the uniform that subjugates people in this case; it is capitalist class structure and decision-making power.

  153. Apologies, EG, I didn’t mean to scare you: I should have realized that people might think it was something like that. Although what did happen is bad enough, as you say. I’ve been horrified by the awfulness of it, and when I happened to see a story mentioning that the victim had gone to Stuyvesant, I immediately thought of this thread, and felt compelled (for whatever reason) to mention it.

  154. Why is it that it’s so difficult to find girls’ shorts (or, hell, women’s shorts and skirts for that matter) that cover a little more of the leg? I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with wearing short shorts or skirts, but it’s frustrating trying to find shorts and skirts that fit me in the way that I like them to.

    As a somewhat bottom-heavy lady, I like shorts with oh, I don’t know, just bit of an inseam to prevent chafing, you know what I mean?

  155. Heh. Apropos of internalized dress codes, I realized that what I was doing as I was thinking about this was rummaging through my closet looking for a jacket to wear tomorrow over my dress. Because tomorrow is my college’s commencement, and the only dress I have available that will work has straps that are off the shoulder, so I can’t wear a bra. So never mind that for the entire ceremony I’ll be wearing my robes over my dress anyway; I can’t possibly have my shoulders and possibly even my bra-less torso visible as I am arriving on or departing from campus. It would be a scandal!

  156. It would be a scandal!

    But consistent with that hypothetical Fox News story about you!

  157. E.G – I understand that perspective and accept you are arguing in good faith, but it seems to be a viewpoint about manual workers in uniforms rather then from them.

    I would argue that there are plenty of people who feel very positively about their uniforms (for a multitude of reasons) and it feels like you’re handwaving that away in the name of class-consciousness, which feels counter-productive.

  158. I don’t mean to handwave that away, Safiya. And I understand that there are many benefits that uniforms can have. But I do think it’s significant that to my knowledge the decision to wear one is rarely made by the people doing the wearing. Clothing can be practical, durable, stand up to washing without being identical. The hats that are part of many uniforms (I’m thinking about McDonald’s here) don’t seem to serve a practical purpose, and the practical purpose is to, say, keep hair out of the food, I don’t see why they have to be identical. It seems to me that many people may feel positively about their uniforms because, among other things, they feel positively about their jobs, and the uniform represents the job. And that’s a real thing, and an important thing. But it’s not the only thing that’s going on, and not the only thing that matters to me, with respect to uniforms. I really, really, really don’t like much of what they symbolize.

    Many people may feel positive about their uniforms. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t symbolize a number of negative things as well, only some of which have to do with class. I feel positive about my high heels for a number of reasons, but they also symbolize a number of negative things having to do with gender subordination, and yes, wearing them does symbolize, among other things, an assimilation into this form of patriarchy.

  159. I would argue that there are plenty of people who feel very positively about their uniforms (for a multitude of reasons)

    In the high school context, then, let those who want to wear a school uniform wear one, but don’t force everyone else to for the sake of “uniformity.” Going to high school should not be like joining the military. If it is, then make all the teachers and administrators wear uniforms too, with extra stripes and special hats to designate “rank.” Just like senior military or police officers. And baseball managers, other than Connie Mack. (I’ve often thought how amusing it would be if they made basketball and football coaches wear the same uniforms as the athletes.)

    The only drawback would be that some of the sadistic little tinpot dictators in the school administrations might enjoy their uniforms a little too much. But at least it would give a more accurate representation of the power dynamic involved in trying to control high school students through dress and uniform codes.

  160. Actually uniforms per se can be really useful to work in. I’ve worn uniform in a very physical job for many years and when it’s well designed, it was far more preferable then me wearing my own clothes.

    Also, if you have a messy job, it’s good to be given clothes that will get stained rather then ruining your own wardrobe and will stand up to frequent hot washes. And uniform wearing job = equals job wear you’re not allowed/encouraged to be creative is a bit of a sweeping statement.

    School uniform is hugely debatable, but I would strongly object to the sweeping statements made about uniform wearing, particularly as they seem to come from a rather narrow perspective. I get that there are many lurkers out there, but the only commenters who ever mention their job on here seem to be academics or lawyers.Actually uniforms per se can be really useful to work in. I’ve worn uniform in a very physical job for many years and when it’s well designed, it was far more preferable then me wearing my own clothes.

    Also, if you have a messy job, it’s good to be given clothes that will get stained rather then ruining your own wardrobe and will stand up to frequent hot washes. And uniform wearing job = equals job wear you’re not allowed/encouraged to be creative is a bit of a sweeping statement.

    School uniform is hugely debatable, but I would strongly object to the sweeping statements made about uniform wearing, particularly as they seem to come from a rather narrow perspective. I get that there are many lurkers out there, but the only commenters who ever mention their job on here seem to be academics or lawyers.

    I work a craptacular job in a craptacular place where I am required to wear a uniform, which I am grateful to have one, as I don’t have to think about what to wear every day, nor do I have to do the whole “Have they seen me in this shirt already this week?” thing. I didn’t appreciate having to buy my own pants, shirts and shoes for it, though.

  161. “I will also point out that my dress-code-less yet successful high school an excellent cognate to Stuyvesant, because it and Stuyvesant consider each other to be rival institutions.”

    EG, would this rival also be a public school in the same borough? And congratulations on your graduation.

    I don’t get the assertions that school uniforms in any way solve this problem of the way girls’ clothing and appearance is policed. My mother and aunt’s combined 24 years of parochial school argues otherwise. You can wear all the approved garments, and b/c of the way they *fit* you, or what others project on how you look, or your “attitude” STILL wind up being perceived as slutty/provocative/
    distracting/inappropriate/whatever.

    Yeah, the problem here is NOT what the kids are wearing these days (getoffamylawn), it’s the way Institutions are increasingly exerting power, punishing non-conformity, and pushing back on any and all civil rights gains of the past 60yrs. Girls and poor kids and disabled kids and LGBT kids and black and latin@ kids are always going to be Doin It Rong. And the more we as a society buy into this culture of focusing on what the individual did or didn’t do while erasing the systemic factors at play, the more exploited we can expect to be.

  162. That said (referring to the longer post in mod), Safiya, just as I defer to Donna on trans issues, I absolutely defer to you on this. I apologize for dismissing working-class perspectives and being condescending.

    I personally find uniforms anathema, and I have serious ideological problems with them being in schools, but I won’t make references to jobs in discussing them any more. Institutions are more relevant anyway.

  163. I have a comment in moderation as well, comparing the high school context to the military in terms of uniforms (making the obvious point that the former shouldn’t be like the latter, with respect to uniforms or otherwise), but I certainly intended no disrespect towards the wearing of uniforms for work outside the high school context.

  164. I’d like to point out, since I don’t think it has been yet, that school uniforms (and in Australia uniforms are ubiquitous for primary and secondary institutions) can be particularly restrictive and painful for gender diverse kids. School uniforms are as much a regulation of kids’ gender presentation as they are of anything else.

  165. Controlling the clothes people wear is an infringement on their right to bodily integrity and self-determination. It’s completely unacceptable to me whether the people being controlled are kids at school, workers at a job, inmates in a prison, whatever. There’s nothing the matter with “uniforms” per se. . .so long as the people wearing them want to be wearing them. Although when given this freedom, there’ll always be people who opt out of any collective clothing scheme and the clothes will, therefore, cease to really be “uniforms.”

    Safiya, I’m someone who has worked at jobs where I’ve had to wear a uniform and would like to offer a counterpoint to what you said. I know a lot of people who wear uniforms to work find pride in their clothing, but in my case, my jobs were for minimum wage in the fast food industry. The overall work environment was exploitative and degrading, and the uniforms felt like a reflection of that. When I worked at Jimmy John’s, for example, my uniform included an ugly black t-shirt with their corporate logo on it and an ugly black baseball cap with the red “JJ” (Jimmy John’s) initials emblazoned on the front. We also had to wear a black belt, and one time my manager talked to me because I was wearing a tan, canvas belt and said if it happened again he would send me home in the middle of my shift to change. This controlling mindset very much felt of a piece with how we were treated as workers, in general. We were not allowed to accept tips from customers, we were forced to listen to the same 50 classic rock songs on rotation every day because they were part of the company’s “image.” When money repeatedly came up missing from the cash register and management couldn’t figure out why it was happening, all five of the day shift cashiers were fired indiscriminately, including me. The first thing I did when I heard this was throw my Jimmy John’s hat in the garbage.

    If you ask me, schools like Stuyvesant should be encouraging kids to discover their own personal style that will enable them to best express their own, unique individuality rather than forcing them to conform to misogynstic standards based off the idea that women’s bodies are dirty and intrinisically sexual and therefore must be covered up or hidden.

  166. There’s nothing the matter with “uniforms” per se. . .so long as the people wearing them want to be wearing them. Although when given this freedom, there’ll always be people who opt out of any collective clothing scheme and the clothes will, therefore, cease to really be “uniforms.”

    Exactly this. It’s not the material or the class signification or style of uniforms that I find revolting: it’s the uniformity of them and the authoritarian intrusion they so often bring out in those with power over others, which has been amply described on this thread.

  167. Partial Human:They’re told they have to look a certain way, act. a certain way, aspire to a narrow set of goals. All this while having to focus on their education, dealing with a changing body, trying to renegotiate relationships with friends and family. And from the story. we have girls being. told that they need to attract a good husband!

    They have to juggle all these balls, inevitably some wil drop, and it’s the girls will suffer for it

    I can see why they think “Fuck it, I give in, I’ll conform to fashion and peer pressure, I’m too tired to resist”.

    I solved it by not having friends in high school, and being too big for fashionable wear. Never bothered with romantic relationships- couldn’t see the point. Guys don’t date for brains, after all.
    I don’t like fashionable wear at all- I mean, spaghetti straps or halter tops at school? Miniskirts?
    But the whole slut-shaming thing is disgusting- not to mention that if these girls were looking for a husband at 15-18, they wouldn’t be at Stuyvesant. Even over here in fly-over land, I know that Stuyvesant’s like MIT for the teen set, and anyone that smart wouldn’t be marrying young. Way to be jack-ass fascists, administrators.

  168. Yeah, I’m also someone who has worked in uniformed jobs and was even one of the ones to initially bring up the subject. I worked at a bar and grill in high school whose owner was Christian; there were Male and Female Jobs categories listed on the application, though I just ignored them and checked off everything I thought I could do because I wanted the work. I did get a “male job” after failing as a hostess and waitress spectacularly my first few days there, but I was still required to wear the female uniform (a long skirt instead of pants) despite that most of my work occurred in a walk-in freezer (I restocked the salad and hot bars).

    And yes, uniforms can offer practicality, but so can regular clothing. In fact, at this very job, anyone who wasn’t to be seen by customers could wear whatever they wanted. The dishwashers came in old t-shirts and pants precisely because management didn’t want them ruining a good uniform. The food prep people (who also worked in the walk in freezer and were both women and men) wore the much more practical sweatshirts and pants; management gave them an apron, so there’s that.

    I also worked as a cashier at McDonald’s. I will say it was nice not having to buy new clothing, but then again, I was also lucky that I didn’t have a coin operated laundry machine considering I only had two uniforms, worked 5 days a week, and am a single person whose laundry doesn’t really pile up. When corporate came to check on our store, I was told to always be smiling. Even when it was 3 pm and we had no customers, I had to stand at that fucking register in case anyone showed up so I could serve them promptly and smile. It got to the point where I couldn’t smile because my cheeks hurt too much, and still my manager scolded me for not presenting the right image.

    Funnily enough, the one job where the durability and cleanness of my clothing was most at stake didn’t require a uniform. That was when I worked on a factory line for a summer, putting in 40+ hour weeks during the summer in a non air conditioned environment screwing together meters and putting warning stickers on metal boxes. I won’t say it was the most enjoyable of the three jobs as I was sexually harassed there, but my manager was a nice enough person, and we goofed around a lot. There was one guy there whose name I don’t even know but we called him Dale because he was a huge fan of Dale Earnhardt and wore t-shirts and hats with that stuff on it all the time. It felt much more like a community there, that’s for sure.

  169. Controlling the clothes people wear is an infringement on their right to bodily integrity and self-determination. It’s completely unacceptable to me whether the people being controlled are kids at school, workers at a job, inmates in a prison, whatever. There’s nothing the matter with “uniforms” per se. . .so long as the people wearing them want to be wearing them.

    Great post.

  170. Dammit I hate the finger tip rule!! As someone who was full grown (5’9) by 8th grade I always got screwed over my that one, and it make me really self-concious about my “monkey arms” that made me feel like all my skirts were closer to knee-length than any of the other girls. Just an FYI these rules do have affect on self-confidence and body image after high school is over. I am a senior in college and still feel weird about showing my shoulders in public (due to basically the same rules as listed in the article)
    The (Catholic if that matters) high school I went to, they have now taken to banning specific types of clothing which SHOCKER are only things teenage girls buy-namely Uggs and Yoga pants. I mean come on guys I know they are a bit of a fashion faux-pas but they are just so damn comfortable!!

  171. I think this thread mostly shows how feminism only makes sense when integrated with a broader anti-authoritarian class analysis, against all the degradations that spring from class stratification and market forces: wage labor, and endless training for it, brutal sexual economy, alienated reproductive labor, the artificial extension of childhood by law, children as property, and of course, the constant invitation to betray our former selves by accepting the ugly policing of the erotic that we ourselves underwent before.

  172. i see the uniform craze as part of a larger social trend to quell rebellion, non-conformity and individuality—hospitals, for example, color=code the help, i.e. nurses wear purple, cna’s wear green and so on—gone are the spongebob and betty boop scrubs—sigh

  173. I think this thread mostly shows how feminism only makes sense when integrated with a broader anti-authoritarian class analysis, against all the degradations that spring from class stratification and market forces: wage labor, and endless training for it, brutal sexual economy, alienated reproductive labor, the artificial extension of childhood by law, children as property, and of course, the constant invitation to betray our former selves by accepting the ugly policing of the erotic that we ourselves underwent before.

    Well-said!

  174. I just wanted to say about the UK uniform issue: although there’s plenty to question, one point I consider to be a big plus is that I believe it can reduce bullying over superficial issues a LOT. There’s always the students who, due to any number of reasons such as difficult home life or lack of financial support, don’t have the ‘fashionable’ wardrobe and I’m sure would otherwise have suffered through a lot of unwanted attention for it. Although I by no means encourage the repression of self expression in any form, by the time we were allowed to wear our own clothes (sixth form which is ages 16-18) people had matured to be far more accepting of how others dressed compared to what it would have been like at 12.

    That said, I spent much of my childhood living abroad and so educated at international schools which had FAR more casual uniform, for instance you just had to wear ‘bottoms’ that were navy blue or generally dark (ie trousers, shorts, skirt, whatever) and a white top of some description; most chose a polo shirt or a sort of blouse affair. I sometimes wonder if it was something to do with hotter climates and so a more relaxed culture spilling over to more relaxed school regulations, but it was a very chilled out environment to learn in and as a result the achievement levels were far higher than my schools in England.

    Basically uniforms don’t have to be bad, but sending the message that girls’ dressing in schools needs to be monitored to prevent distraction rather than holding guys to a reasonable level of expectation to not be distracted by something so insignificant is ridiculous, duh. Also pretty offensive to males on the whole, as is the entire ‘guys will be guys! *comedic shrug*’ stance

  175. I sometimes wonder if it was something to do with hotter climates and so a more relaxed culture spilling over to more relaxed school regulations

    Whoa. How would a hotter climate translate to a more relaxed culture? A cursory glance at the world suggests that a variety of cultures arise in hot places. Are we talking about the Caribbean? Are we talking about the Middle East? The Mayan Empire? What are we talking about here?

  176. by the time we were allowed to wear our own clothes (sixth form which is ages 16-18) people had matured to be far more accepting of how others dressed compared to what it would have been like at 12.

    That is not my experience of those ages at all. Maybe UK 16-18-year-olds are just more mature than NYC 16-18-year-olds were.

    I think this thread mostly shows how feminism only makes sense when integrated with a broader anti-authoritarian class analysis, against all the degradations that spring from class stratification and market forces: wage labor, and endless training for it, brutal sexual economy, alienated reproductive labor, the artificial extension of childhood by law, children as property, and of course, the constant invitation to betray our former selves by accepting the ugly policing of the erotic that we ourselves underwent before.

    I like this a lot, although I’m wondering what you mean by “the artificial extension of childhood by law,” because I certainly see evidence of that (the absurd US drinking age, for one), but I also see incredibly harmful evidence of the artificial abridgement of childhood by law, for instance, trying 13-year-olds as adults.

  177. Whoa. How would a hotter climate translate to a more relaxed culture? A cursory glance at the world suggests that a variety of cultures arise in hot places. Are we talking about the Caribbean? Are we talking about the Middle East? The Mayan Empire? What are we talking about here?

    Rowena is talking about how she wonders whether cultures are affected in a certain way by hotter climates in relation to her own experiences, which leads me to infer she is not referring to one culture in particular.

  178. @EG

    That is not my experience of those ages at all. Maybe UK 16-18-year-olds are just more mature than NYC 16-18-year-olds were.

    Compulsory education only goes to 16 in the UK (was talk of raising to 18, but including a lot of vocational training for those who didn’t want to do A-levels, not sure if that’s gone through yet), meaning 6th Forms only have people who want to be there. Certainly made a huge difference at my school, 6th form was much more mature with even people who formerly bullied me growing up and becoming decent human beings.

    (Tangentally: this also meant that kids in the care system/fostering were kicked out at 16. Utterly stupid system)

  179. Sorry that was just a sidethought, I was just basing off experience living in Europe specifically (although I also lived in Malaysia but that’s a whole different kettle of fish); although there’s a bounty of political and social issues with the mediterranean (especially at the moment financially I mean geeze!) but living there, the friends both international and native we made and going to school/work all left us with a far more chilled approach to life than living here in England has before and after being there; the whole midday siesta, late night dinner and long summer holidays culture really spoilt us for living somewhere so comparably cold and dark and uptight now. Don’t get me wrong I do like my country though

    Obviously I’m not claiming there’s a correlation between ‘chilled-out-ness’ of a country and the temperature haha, I was just saying specific to my situation I thought it partially factored

  180. I wonder if these schools aren’t air conditioned? If its really hot and humid in the classrooms, maybe that’s part of the problem.

    This quote is from forever ago in this thread, but as a current Stuyvesant student, a major problem with this dress code is that the school has terrible ventilation. When the air conditioning isn’t on, it’s like a sauna, and it’s usually hotter than the air outside. When it is on (and that has been rare this year outside of the winter months), some rooms feel like Siberia and others feel stuffy and humid. When it feels like the tropics, compliance with the dress code can be difficult.

    Enforcement is as terrible as the article suggests. Students have been told that shorts and skirts with leggings are not okay, but people wearing similar shorts and skirts without leggings are. Students have also been told to change into a pair of the school’s gym shorts, which are shorter than most of the offending shorts and skirts. Justifications can also be bizarre: in the previously stated situation, a staff member said, “It’s not the shorts that are wrong, it’s the idea of the shorts…”

    The reason Stuyvesant students are particularly upset about this is because prior to the introduction of the dress code, there was an unofficial one, but enforcement was very spotty and did not result in the revocation of actual privileges. The new dress code was intended to reduce confusion amongst teachers and students about the appropriateness of outfits, but hasn’t really worked out that way. There was very little, if any, student input, and it was thrust upon us quite unexpectedly.

    In addition, the article makes no mention of the actual penalties one can face for breaking the dress code:
    -revocation of out-to-lunch privileges
    -confiscation of school ID(which is actually important, because one is required to swipe into the school using the ID for attendance purposes, and a replacement or a temporary one costs money)

    The dress code does apply to guys, but I’ve never been stopped for it, and from what I’ve heard it basically just bans tank-tops.

    If the dress code had been made with the consultation of students, was properly enforced, the school had a working ventilation system, and students had been bombarded with announcements informing them of the dress code prior to the implementation of it (one post on a website does not do much, especially when few people visit the school’s website more often than once a week and some students do not have internet services available at home), then there wouldn’t be a problem. Unfortunately, none of that happened, so now we have this mess of a situation to deal with.

  181. I really want to thank you for this blog. I’m a junior at Stuy and for the past year there’s been so much unnecessary controversy with what the girls in my school wear. I keep having to pull my skirt down to the mid hip (I’d have a long shirt on so nothing would show) just so that I’d pass. The administration will also be on your ass if you wear a skirt (or short-shorts) with leggings or opaque tights, but not if you wear a long shirt or dress with just leggings or tights. Girls can’t even wear minidresses with Soffe shorts or tight biking shorts showing. Only girls with long torsos and/or short limbs can get away with everything. I’m all-leg and no torso and the dress code is disadvantageous. They also enforce it only when we scan into the building. Last week I wore short shorts under a long skirt and a cardigan with my tank top. The second I got to my locker on the 4th floor, the skirt and the sweater were off. Also the adults’ glares and comments about what I’m wearing are completely inappropriate and I really just want them to shut up about it. I mean, I can be wearing a skirt down to my ankles and guys can be fantasizing about that just as much, if not more because my legs would become more of a “mystery” and not out there for everyone to see.

  182. Thank you for this. I am a Stuyvesant student and love this blog, and when my girlfriend told me that you had posted about OUR dress code I was really excited . . .
    Since reading, I’ve shared your post on Facebook, and it has generated significant discussion in Stuy groups and among Stuy students. I want to thank you for voicing the most sensible, effective, and compassionate response to this issue that I’ve read anywhere. I want to thank you for helping to change the dynamic of our school’s discussion. Thank you for taking a stand for us. After wading through so much bullshit – students denying that there is anything wrong with the code, or saying that the only problem is in the enforcement – so much blatant slutshaming and gender stereotypes – I needed this; we needed this. Thanks.

  183. Aw. I’m glad to read Stuyvesant students living up to the thoughtfulness and eloquence I remember them having back in the stone age when they were rivals.

  184. The administration is just so non-understanding. I don’t know what it is about the Stuy building, but inside it’s just so hot during the warmer months. We have students of all different body types, and some of us agree with the heat while some of us do not. I’m the latter type of person. I seriously can’t walk inside the building without breaking out in a horrid sweat. My body just completely objects to hot weather. It’s embarrassing and unfair–I see other girls walking around just fine, and I’m there sweating like a pig. I feel that I, and many other girls, should be allowed to dress more lightly in such awful weather. It’s not about attracting unwanted male attention–it’s a biological need. Girls should be allowed to dress in a way that suits themselves, and their own bodies. Besides, don’t you think a person sweating like a pig is a little more distracting than one dressed a little revealingly? Come on.

  185. I am a current Stuyvesant senior and would just like to point out that the air conditioning is broken and the administration feels like it’s a waste to fix them until next year since the school year is almost over.

  186. Thank you so much for writing this! I am a Stuyvesant student, and I have been stopped by the administration many times, even though I truly do try to follow the dress code. It’s actually quite ridiculous, because we really aren’t allowed to expose our shoulders (even if it’s not a tank top, but simply a sleeveless shirt), yet the teacher are. They usually don’t even look at guys (none of my male friends have been stopped for wearing something inappropriate upon entering school, even if they were exposing their shoulders or wore somewhat distracting shirts). What’s the most bothersome thing about the dress code is the fact that before it was enforced, NO STUDENTS COMPLAINED. And if you look at our school statistics, the overall student performance has not increased (and wasn’t that the main purpose of the dress code?).

  187. I’ll try and make this quick, i have a much longer essay on the gothamist article. but basically, as a stuy junior, i think a larger issue than students dressing “provocatively” is that some of the teachers can be really inappropriate. Many are great, but personally I have had at least one teacher that made me and other students extremely uncomfortable in class.

  188. There was a lively debate about the dress code on the Facebook page of the Stuyvesant High School Alumni Association. I posted several comments there. I’d like to see more Stuy alumni get involved, and it would be great if some current Stuy students shared their thoughts, too. (Kudos to the young woman who posted just before me.)

    I am opposed to this dress code, and APPALLED by the inconsistent and sexist enforcement thereof. The only dress code that should exist at Stuyvesant is that clothing should not be unhygenic, potentially dangerous, or on fire. I’d restrict things like large, dangly earrings or loose, very long hair in shop class and in the gym, but that’s it.

    I’ve served in the U.S. military in Afghanistan, and I’ve seen women and girls imprisoned in burkhas. I do not want to see that nonsense here at home. I fear that this dress code is just the first step on a slippery slope, with burkhas at the bottom of that slide.

  189. I think this is all ridiculous. In middle school I had a way stricter dress code and it was never a problem. This is the easiest dress code I’ve ever actually experienced. When I was an underclassmen, Stuy had NO dress code, and girls wore skirts and shorts that actually showed their underwear. Also, you can only find sexism when you really really look for it. Seriously.

    “• Sayings and illustrations on clothing should be in good taste.
    • Shoulders, undergarments, midriffs and lower backs should
    not be exposed.
    • The length of shorts, dresses and skirts should extend below
    the fingertips with the arms straight at your side.”

    The rules actually really not sexist. The author was clearly a female, and clearly didn’t go to stuy. The first bullet point is geared towards the male population of the school that would wear shirts with curse words or marijuana leaves on it. They got sick of asking the kid to put a different shirt on or having to put tape over it. It seems completely legitimate.

    While the second rule mentions midriffs and lower backs, is anyone actually surprised at that? I don’t want to see anybody’s middle-body in any kind of work place. Find some clothes that fit. And for all of the people saying “fashionable stores don’t sell that”, belly shirts haven’t been in style since I was like 10. Let’s not delude ourselves. This rule was actually made because during gym and the like, boys would get too hot. They’d take their shirts off, and the teachers that had them afterwards couldn’t convince them to put their shirts back on. The shoulder rule was actually initiated for boys, and started with the male population about a year or two BEFORE it applied to females. The undergarment rule is the same.

    And who wants to see a girl in a skirt below her fingertips? I have a lot of problems finding dresses and skirts that are long enough because I’m a tall person, but I have never actually been stopped because of the length of my dress. Personally, I wouldn’t want to wear a dress like that anyway. I don’t think that it’s that much of a problem to extend the dress just beyond the underwear so you don’t actually flash everyone.

    These dress codes were put to use because the students started acting inappropriately. Teachers would find them doing sexual acts in the stairways, sometimes even sneaking to spend a night in the school so that they could have sex away from their families. This was an act of desperation to try to pull up a school that was falling.

    And quite frankly, everyone needs to stop ragging on it. Look at other highschools! There are much stricter dress codes, some even have uniforms! And Stuy kids love being the victims of the big bad adults. Who’s to say this girl didn’t exaggerate a little bit?

  190. Eirny

    Wow.. I think I called Bingo just in this one post.

    “You’re just reading too much into it…”
    “You’re just looking for sexism where it doesn’t exist”
    “Others have it waaaay worse…”
    “Maybe she was making it up…”
    I don’t have a problem with it so clearly…”

    These dress codes were put to use because the students started acting inappropriately. Teachers would find them doing sexual acts in the stairways, sometimes even sneaking to spend a night in the school so that they could have sex away from their families.

    Tell me… how does a restrictive dress code prevent people from acting ‘innapropriately’?

    Does not compute.

  191. Teachers would find them doing sexual acts in the stairways, sometimes even sneaking to spend a night in the school so that they could have sex away from their families. This was an act of desperation to try to pull up a school that was falling.

    Oh noes! Teenagers making out in stairwells! Teenagers sneaking away from their families to have sex! The sky is definitely FALLING. It’s a good thing the dress code came along. Everybody knows you can’t have sex with somebody who’s wearing a long skirt.

    Also…Stuyvesant was “falling”? Are you kidding me? Stuyvesant? All schools should be falling like that.

  192. Everyone knows that the female body is sinful and should be covered up or else innocent men cant control their lustful thoughts and behavior!
    (Heaven forbid a woman with large breasts wear a form fitting shirt, shes defiantly asking for it.)

    Or how about we desexualize/normalize women’s body parts instead of trying to hide them and hold men accountable for their misconduct. Wouldn’t that be a trip!

  193. @greg(class of 1980) i just love your comment—many times the people who know the price of defending freedom understand its value a little better than most—unfortunately, the battle here at home against tyranny continues….

  194. In middle school I had a way stricter dress code and it was never a problem. This is the easiest dress code I’ve ever actually experienced.

    True for me => true for everyone else!

    Egocentrism at its finest.

  195. Dammit I hate the finger tip rule!! As someone who was full grown (5’9) by 8th grade I always got screwed over my that one, and it make me really self-concious about my “monkey arms” that made me feel like all my skirts were closer to knee-length than any of the other girls.

    Conversely, as a short person (5’3″) with short arms and a long torso, I can follow the finger tip rule and still have half an inch of butt cheek hanging out. Yay arbitrary rules!

    Eirny

    It’s like you didn’t even read the post or this thread. The complaint is not that the rules are inherently sexist (although some have argued otherwise), but that the enforcement of those rules is sexist.

    But please, explain why telling young women that they’ll “get raped wearing that” is not sexist.

  196. Sorry, I only got up to May 28th for the comments (about half way through) and I just want to respond to some of the comments. I am a student at Stuyvesant High School, a female at that, and obviously I agree that this dress code is unfair and aimed towards females. The “tasteful” clothing rule is not enforced for males. I’ve seen several shirts that have curse words, including a very clever periodic table that said “Fuck the bitches and get the money”, being worn by males. In addition to that, males do wear wife beaters even if it’s against the dress code. And do they get any grief for it? No.

    1. Just wanted to say thanks to all the Stuy students who have commented here. I didn’t grow up in NY, but I’ve lived here for ten years, and you all have a reputation for being intelligent, incisive, generous thinkers. That’s been well-reflected on this thread. Thank you for participating, and for sharing your views and experiences. It’s very impressive.

  197. @ draconismoi

    “At some point a school needs to make a decision to either let kids where whatever the hell they want, or institute uniforms. Then they can have total dictatorial control over everything you can wear and there are no issues with “well that shirt is inappropriate for YOU.””

    Ideally, yes. But my school had uniforms and I STILL got body policing. I was one of three “fat” (i.e. over US size 8) girls in my class in an *intensely* thin-centric community and they invented a special uniform violation code that, wouldn’t you know, was only ever applied to me and another of the larger girls: the “slovenly” violation. So I was following the rules, literally wearing school-issued clothes, and I was still getting called out as unacceptable, and it wasn’t hard to see why. And wouldn’t you know it, the teacher who usually issued the “slovenly” violations was a thin small-breasted busybody who loved to talk smugly about “flaunting” and “consequences.” Hello, Saturday school.

    Which is obviously the problem with these kid’s dress code: the demeaning, distracting and psychologically damaging enforcement of it.

    And I’ll weigh in on the uniform debate, as the kid with little money at a rich school, and a girl with body issues: uniforms allowed me to have free access to an education and a social life. It allowed me– and the other girls– to pursue our education without worrying about our outfits and their implications. I am a hardcore weirdo, a life-long expresser of things, but I believe uniforms– if done in a sensible way– can free kids up to be truly expressive. It was very different from wearing work uniforms. It doesn’t create a utopia or anything– as another commenter said, the underlying problems still exist– but it really did help kids at my school keep the focus on learning and community.

  198. @Eirny

    Hi, so I’m the girl quoted in the article and I just wanted to let you know that I was absolutely not exaggerating my story. I wouldn’t make something up to garner attention or sympathy, and I’m not trying to play the victim. It’s great that you’ve never been stopped for your clothes, and that you personally don’t like wearing short dresses but implying that everyone who has had run-ins with the administration was because they were literally flashing everyone is just so inaccurate. Also, I don’t know if you actually read what I wrote, but the whole point was that my skirt fell below my fingertips and therefore broke no rules, and yet I was still subjected to sexist, offensive comments, so your statement that you “don’t think that it’s that much of a problem to extend the dress just beyond the underwear so you don’t actually flash everyone” kind of misses the point, and honestly sounds a little bit like you’re exaggerating.

  199. I like Stuyvesant students more and more.

    And buried in the article, by the way, is this tidbit: “On Tuesday, she said, she had a senior turn his T-shirt inside out to conceal a logo she found offensive: a beer mug.”

    Sure, that’s not just petty authoritarian abuse of power. It was a picture of a BEER MUG, people! How could anybody be expected to do SCHOOLWORK in the presence of a picture of a BEER MUG?

    I wonder what Ms. Reidy would have done when I came into school wearing what used to be a favorite t-shirt, which had on it not only a picture of a beer mug, but also the words “Working is for idiots, and you love the smell of bars” written on it, and with a lycra miniskirt and fishnet stockings, no less.

    It’s amazing how I’ve turned out, being a college professor and all. It’s almost as if how teenagers dress has jackshit to do with their academic achievement.

  200. I haven’t quite read all of the comments. But I would simply like to clarify something.

    I am a female Stuyvesant student. I do not speak for all of us, as some people may differ from my opinions. However, I myself do not protest the dress code in and of itself. It is not ‘strict’ or ‘conservative.’ I come from a Catholic school in the Philippines, where I wore ankle-length skirts and pressed white button down shirts, and I had no problem with that. Nor do I have a problem with the current dress code as it is written.

    It is a given that we aren’t supposed to expose our undergarments in the school environment. What professional environment allows that? It’s the enforcement that we’re protesting. Even when our dresses do extend past our fingertips, we still get called out. Even though we are following the rules, we’re still given grief simply because of the way a piece of clothing fits on our individual body types. If they want to tell us that our clothes don’t exactly flatter or fit our figure, I’d love it if it were done with more tact and not as members of the administration but as the individuals who have a problem with the way we’re dressed. If they say wear clothes that extend beyond our fingertips and we do, then there’s no reason we should be called out. The same goes in that if we were assigned a uniform that is, for example, a polo shirt and a knee length skirt, no one has any right to call us out if we wear that uniform and it doesn’t look good on us.

    Personally, I would rather if they just tell us straight out what on earth it is they want us to wear. I would rather be in a uniform than waste time and energy thinking about whether or not my clothes that conform to the written dress code will still get me banned from going to class.

    1. lynne,
      i work as a para in a middle school and i can tell you i’m frequently appalled by the way some other teachers and paras treat the kids—in my opinion, i just think there are some adults who just enjoy being mean to kids

  201. Can I please just say thank you to this blog in general! I’ve been searching the internet for some procrastination material light reading, and the feminist blogs that I’ve come across have been pretty dry and humorless. But laughs aside, the great thing about this blog is that you lot recognize that woman want to fuck! Which is something that I feel like feminist writing tends to ignore (or maybe I haven’t done enough research). To be honest I’m rather sick of being represented as lust-less prude, designed to satisfy someone else…! So even though this may not be the most appropriate article to post this comment, THANK YOU for not making me feel like I am the only person who enjoys sweaty men, solid abs and gorgeous tits…(apologies to any men or women who may feel objectified as a result of my confession).

  202. @Peonysung

    You’ve definitely come to the right place. This was the first feminist blog I discovered, and I certainly don’t regret any of my time spent here – arguing with some dreadful anti-feminist trolls notwithstanding.

    Oh, and just so you know, there is a lot of sex-positive feminist theory out there; I think you’ll find that interesting.

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