STAY OFF THE POLE.

104 thoughts on STAY OFF THE POLE.

1. Oh god. I was holding the pole last week and a woman started to hug it, so she was leaning against me, and eventually rested her head against my hand cos she was shorter than me. And I was nearly SICK. STRANGERS HEAD HAIR ALL OVER MY HAND. Disgusting.

2. I’m with you on everything except the shoes. This weather is made for sandals. Liberate the feet!

3. Also, it’s far less intrusive to just ask me how to get to where you’re going than to hover over me for five minutes while trying to read a map which takes about 20 seconds to realize was never meant for actual navigational use and is purely decorative.

   You can tell by the deadness in my eyes that I ride this thing a lot. Just ask…

4. Also: TAKE YOUR FUCKING BACKPACK OFF IF YOU’RE GOING TO STAND THERE.

   I just love having to twist around someone’s jam-packed sack while trying to reach the exit. I’m surprised that I haven’t yet had my glasses knocked off by some thoughtless boor’s pack. It’s especially aggravating at rush hour on buses.

5. I used to moan about the NY subway, and then I moved to Philadelphia. The average MTA rider, even that sandal bag guy, is a nobel laureate in socially-acceptable-subway-behavior studies compared to the typical SEPTA rider. No sir or madame, plugging in your phone charger and stretching your cord across the aisle is not a good idea.

6. I used to moan about the NY subway, and then I moved to Philadelphia. The average MTA rider, even that sandal bag guy, is a nobel laureate in socially-acceptable-subway-behavior studies compared to the typical SEPTA rider. No sir or madame, plugging in your phone charger and stretching your cord across the aisle is not a good idea.

   QFT. What can you expect from an organization whose slogan is “We’re getting there”?

7. Also, it’s far less intrusive to just ask me how to get to where you’re going than to hover over me for five minutes while trying to read a map which takes about 20 seconds to realize was never meant for actual navigational use and is purely decorative.

   You can tell by the deadness in my eyes that I ride this thing a lot. Just ask…

   Totally disagree with this one. The map is not decorative and if you have to change trains or transfer to a bus and you’re not sure which stop to get off at, you need the information on the map. This coming from someone who has ridden the subway for 40 years. Besides, I don’t see why I should be forced to have a conversation with a stranger about where I’m going. Just because that person has seated themselves in front of the map doesn’t make them captain of navigation for everyone in that train car. How do I know you’re not some kind of perverted stalker? (Not you, specifically, but the person sitting in front of the map.)

8. Oh, and please don’t stand in the doorway when the train is at the station and people need to exit and enter the train. Please just freaking move out of the way. Yeah, and that giant stroller/suitcase/duffle bag that you’ve set next to you, which is also blocking the doorway or aisle. Move it.

   And your music? While I’m sure it’s fabulous, I don’t want to listen to it. Turn the volume down. And while you’re at it, please stop chewing that gum until you learn how to do it without sounding like a cow chewing cud.

   Suggestion: if someone is leaning against my hand, I tense the muscles in my fingers so as to make my knuckles pointy and poky. Sometimes I flex and unflex them so that the poking and pointiness is sporadic and unpredictable. Nice? No. Deserved? Yes.

9. Seconding the backpack thing. Please take them off if you can. I know nobody wants to hold their bags on the ground, but I’m not more than five feet tall and I can’t count the number of giant backpacks that have bashed in the face on public transit because the person wearing them forgot their back sticks out a foot and a half.

   Also, every time someone writes about MTA manners it makes me think all of us over here on BART graduated from charm school or something. Except with the escalators. For some reason nobody in California can be bothered to stand on the right and
   I always secretly want a crowd of New Yorkers (or Londoners!) to come and mow down the schmuck blocking my passing lane.

10. QFT. What can you expect from an organization whose slogan is “We’re getting there”?

    Oh man, what a wonderful marketing fail.

    It reminds me of the town sign where I live.. It has the town name at the top and then usually some bullshit inspirational saying. One week I laughed because the sign read, no fooling, Town of {redacted} – Try to resist the urge to judge.

11. I do not tolerate man-sitting. I will become aggressive and shove him aside with my purse, bag, or own knee repeatedly. For some reason, it just switches this rage-switch in my brain.

    I’ve been known to humiliate friends with it, too. One of my friends has a particularly egregious habit of mansitting, and I’ve been known to raise my voice and say, “WOW, FRIEND, IS YOUR PENIS HOT? DOES YOUR COCK NEED AIR?” I’ve been told it’s “rude”. Too bad.

12. I do not tolerate man-sitting. I will become aggressive and shove him aside with my purse, bag, or own knee repeatedly. For some reason, it just switches this rage-switch in my brain.

    I’ve been known to humiliate friends with it, too. One of my friends has a particularly egregious habit of mansitting, and I’ve been known to raise my voice and say, “WOW, FRIEND, IS YOUR PENIS HOT? DOES YOUR COCK NEED AIR?” I’ve been told it’s “rude”. Too bad.

13. Fat Steve:

    Totally disagree with this one. The map is not decorative and if you have to change trains or transfer to a bus and you’re not sure which stop to get off at, you need the information on the map. This coming from someone who has ridden the subway for 40 years. Besides, I don’t see why I should be forced to have a conversation with a stranger about where I’m going. Just because that person has seated themselves in front of the map doesn’t make them captain of navigation for everyone in that train car. How do I know you’re not some kind of perverted stalker? (Not you, specifically, but the person sitting in front of the map.)

    Agreed. If you don’t like the weird map hover, don’t sit in front of the map.

14. Totally disagree with the objections to man-sitting and putting your bag on the seat next to you, at least if there are plenty of other empty seats around. If there are no other seats, then sure, it’s just plain rude. If there are other seats available, though, then I’m sorry, but my hips are splaying in a comfortable manner and and my bag is going on the seat next to me.

    1. Totally disagree with the objections to man-sitting and putting your bag on the seat next to you, at least if there are plenty of other empty seats around. If there are no other seats, then sure, it’s just plain rude. If there are other seats available, though, then I’m sorry, but my hips are splaying in a comfortable manner and and my bag is going on the seat next to me.

       If there are tons of other seats available, sure. But if there aren’t (or if there are only one or two in the whole car, and if they require a squeeze or a walk down to the other end) then move your damn bag and close your knees.

15. Totally disagree with the objections to man-sitting and putting your bag on the seat next to you, at least if there are plenty of other empty seats around. If there are no other seats, then sure, it’s just plain rude. If there are other seats available, though, then I’m sorry, but my hips are splaying in a comfortable manner and and my bag is going on the seat next to me.

    Frankly, that doesn’t bother me all that much, because I have no problem asking someone to move their stuff so I can sit down. If I get even the slightest bit of pushback, however, I find that incredibly rude. It’s somewhat like sitting in the seats reserved for the elderly and disabled–you want to sit there, fine, but you’d better get up (without being prompted) if someone who actually needs that seat boards the train, and you’d really better get up if someone who needs it asks you to.

16. I was just in San Francisco for a week and had to make many trips on BART. When I had my luggage in tow, I kept one bag on the seat next to me if there were plenty of seats available, then put it in my lap when the car started to fill up, while always keeping an eye out for anyone who looked like they might need a seat sooner. My least favorite thing is the people who listen to music without headphones. I mean c’mon, WHAT IS THAT?

17. Also, really, is anyone actually objecting to most of these behaviors on near-empty trains? It seems like someone always has to come in and say “Hey, don’t object to such and such! If there’s plenty of seats then what’s the problem?”. There IS no problem, that’s the point. It just seems like a given that the rules that revolve around taking up space only apply if there isn’t much space available to begin with.

18. Just because that person has seated themselves in front of the map doesn’t make them captain of navigation for everyone in that train car.

    YES IT DOES!

19. omg, I wish I lived in NYC.

20. Is it really better if we put our backpacks on the floor? I ask this as someone who has never lived in a city with a subway, so I only use the subway when I’m visiting.

    I’m not strong enough to hold my backpack in my arms for any extended period of time. There’s really only two options – on my back, where I can move it quickly if someone needs to get by, or on the floor, where I cannot move it easily.

    I always look over my shoulder before I rotate my body when I’m wearing a backpack. I would really rather not set it on the floor, because if someone accidentally kicks my laptop my brain will explode in anguish and brain juice will spatter all over the place, and that’s just not sanitary.

21. outrageandsprinklesAlso, really, is anyone actually objecting to most of these behaviors on near-empty trains? …It just seems like a given that the rules that revolve around taking up space only apply if there isn’t much space available to begin with.

    You’d think, but that hasn’t been my experience. I’ve had more than a few conversations about subway etiquette with fellow NYCers who get annoyed at the mere sight of someone taking up extra space regardless of how empty the train is because that guy is instantly associated with (and assumed to be one of ) the actual jerks who do it when the train is full.

22. The LA Metro is awful too. For some reason, I get all the inattentive parents who let their children run around, climb the seats and poles like monkey bars, scream, cry, and bother other riders while the parents are glued to their cell phones. I cannot tell you how many times I have been poked, prodded, had my hair pulled, named called, and just generally bothered by children on the Metro. (also I had the pleasure of watching a toddler put ipod head phones in it’s mouth and around it’s neck while they were plugged into a phone and would scream every time the mother swatted them away only for her to put them back in it’s mouth to shut it up)

    Also people who eat smelly food on the Metro as well. Fried chicken seems to be a favourite along with sunflower seeds, crinkly chips, and weird stinky sandwiches. Along with the food comes the inevitable lip smacking, open mouthed chewing and for some damn reason… talking about the food while eating it???

    Red and Purple lines are not too too bad since they are short but the Gold line is a killer.

23. Another irritating subway behavior is when the person next to you needs something from inside their bag and they just can’t seem to locate it for their entire ride. They just keep rummaging around in there, elbowing the people around them over and over.
    On the way home this evening, I sat between a man-sitter who was tapping his heel to music I could hear and a woman who kept flipping her hair so that it hit my chin. It is a sick, sick world we live in. It was nice to get a seat, though.

24. Let me see, my latest public transportation complaint would be, if there’s room to sit, sit your butt down, don’t stand up. The other day there was a man on the bus who was angry at the driver because the driver wouldn’t let him off exactly where he wanted due to safety issues. So, he remained standing up, holding on to the pole near the door (so right up close to me) and proceeded to gripe to everyone on the bus about the driver, and anyway, that’s not so much the point. I hated having him hover over me, *and* I was afraid that if we had to come to quick stop (not unheard of where we were, lots of traffic there) he would fall on me, or worse, not fall on something soft and hurt himself. Yeah, I’m pretty sensitive about my personal space and didn’t want him that close to me, but it would be far worse if in his anger that the driver was trying to protect him from being hit by a car, his carelessness on the bus still ended up getting him hurt.

25. *raises hand*

    I get that everyone should ride public transportation with the understanding that it is public and with group courtesy in mind. Part of that involves people taking as little space as they need (in crowded circumstances, yes) and maybe putting up with some inconvenience and discomfort in the process.

    But.

    If I’m leaning my hips against the pole or handrail on my bus (I don’t live in a place with a subway), it is because there are no seats available, and I need to do this in order to avoid falling down. This is true even if I don’t “look” disabled enough for people to infer that from the way I board the stopped bus.

    And I get that probably most of the people who hug the pole are doing it from simple thoughtlessness (and/or maybe even deliberate self-centeredness) — but I also think it’s uncool to make categorical judgments when they are sometimes wrong.

26. Good point, Tori. The only time I hug the pole on the bus is when it’s standing room only and I am the one person having to stand, and that’s because I’m probably scared out of my wits at the moment (feeling insecure and unsafe in a vehicle is sometimes a trigger for me…not as much as it used to be, but it still is what it is). It probably is true that most people are either not thinking or are inconsiderate, but there are probably sometimes people who need the pole.

27. In the context of NYC, I think that categorical judgment is pretty solid, because people are required by law to surrender seats set aside for disabled people whenever requested. I actually have a good friend who can’t hold onto poles or overhead hangs due to a disability affecting her elbows and wrists, who regularly requests such seats during rush hours (I’ve been with her when she does) and nobody has ever not immediately stood up and given her the seat.

    So at least here, I strongly doubt that the vast, vast majority of these pole leaners are disabled. I think they’re just assholes.

28. And in DC- for chrissake, MOVE TO THE MIDDLE OF THE CAR. Yes, you’re getting off at the next stop, but you don’t need to be near the door now and there are 100 people who are trying to get on. Sometimes at Metro Center it’s impossible to get on the train and you can see EMPTY SEATS through the window because of all the people who are afraid that if they’re not right next to the door they won’t be able to get off at god-damned Gallery Place.

29. So at least here, I strongly doubt that the vast, vast majority of these pole leaners are disabled. I think they’re just assholes.

    Yes this.

    I’ve had more than a few conversations about subway etiquette with fellow NYCers who get annoyed at the mere sight of someone taking up extra space regardless of how empty the train is because that guy is instantly associated with (and assumed to be one of ) the actual jerks who do it when the train is full.

    I’m guessing it’s because “that guy” is often reluctant to share space when new riders pile in. I have been on many a train in the early morning, or per-evening rush hour, and near the beginning of a line, where the few passengers on the train have fully monopolized the space, to the point that most new passengers elect to stand. Just last week, I saw this dude taking up five seats (three long with the facing 2 in the corner at the end of the car) with himself and his stringed instrument. He could have positioned the instrument in such a way as to use 1 or 2 seats max, but it was clear that he felt obliged to use all that space, while others were made to stand.

30. And can people stop crowding by the front of the bus? There is all sorts of room in the back. Frequently empty seats, even. But everyone and their grandma MUST BE BY THE DRIVER, who is probably feeling damn crowded and claustrophobic by all the hovering passengers by now. The same goes with standing in front of the back door– unless you are going to use it at the next stop or the bus is crowded and there is nowhere else TO stand, quit it.

31. “I actually have a good friend who can’t hold onto poles or overhead hangs due to a disability affecting her elbows and wrists, who regularly requests such seats during rush hours (I’ve been with her when she does) and nobody has ever not immediately stood up and given her the seat.” EG I get this but I still think your point about just judging people as assholes is terrible, even if true for the majority. Some less visible disabilities might be more shameful to a person who passes as able-bodied and that person might not want to call attention to it. I’m speaking from personal experience and I deeply value that I can pass even when unable to stand well on the moving vehicle. Out of the emotional trauma of my condition, asking a person to move from the disabled seats when I appear perfectly normal and am with friends and colleagues who do not know, is just about _The Last_ thing I am willing to do.

32. The people who don’t move to the back of the bus/middle of the subway car are #1 on my shitlist. Nobody else comes close–even the people who deem that their bag needs a seat all its own are only depriving ONE additional person of a seat. The door-crowders are depriving EVERYONE of room, and making the boarding/disembarking process slower for everyone to boot. Special place in hell, for sure.

33. The people who don’t move to the back of the bus/middle of the subway car are #1 on my shitlist.

    I can understand sometimes why some people stick to the front of the bus, but I do find it extremely frustrating when people boarding the bus are carrying very little with them, but hog the front of the bus and force people who are carrying heavy bags and other things to try and struggle to get to the back of the bus. That has happened more times than I can count. One time there was a very nice man who gave me his seat and moved to the back so I wouldn’t have to try and drag everything to the back, but that is the extreme exception, not the rule.

34. I get this but I still think your point about just judging people as assholes is terrible, even if true for the majority.

    I really don’t see how it’s “terrible.” It’s not like I’m advocating running pole-leaners out of town on a rail, or tarring and feathering them. If the vast, vast majority of people doing something are assholes–and I’d need some pretty strong convincing that the vast, vast majority of pole-leaners are actually not self-centered, lazy assholes, but instead disabled and too traumatized by their disability to request the seats, particularly given how many of them behave when other people try to hold onto the pole–it’s a fair generalization to make. There might indeed be some tiny percentage of men who sit with their legs wide-spread due to a disability, but that doesn’t change the fact that most of those dudes are just assholes, and I’m not going to go around withholding judgment on them on the off-chance that a tiny percentage of the guys I roll my eyes at aren’t jerks.

    Regardless, pole-leaning isn’t going to prevent you from having to discuss the issue with strangers; it just means that every so often you’re going get me or somebody like me in a pissy mood saying “Excuse me. I need to hold on here. Can you move?“

35. The point is, if you are choosing to engage in a self-centered behavior, prioritizing your own comfort above everybody else’s need to hang onto something during rush hour, then, in a startling twist of events, everybody else is indeed going to judge you as self-centered. If that’s not a judgment you want to live with, then don’t behave in a self-centered way. If the self-centered behavior is so very important to you, then live with the judgment.

    It’s public transportation, which means that everybody has to subordinate, to a given degree, their own comfort. When reasonable allowances have been made to meet the needs of people with invisible disabilities who can’t hold on to the grips while standing, I do think it becomes the responsibility of those who need them to take advantage of them rather than expecting everybody else not only not lose their balance because they can’t hold to a pole because it’s being monopolized, but not even to pass judgment on the person monopolizing it.

    If it’s the last thing you want to do, then don’t do it, but then what you’re saying is you’re prioritizing that over the needs of everybody else within arm’s reach of the pole. And that’s your right, but you can’t expect everybody else within arm’s reach of the pole to agree with that prioritization.

36. The conduct I’ve never been able to understand: the people that block the door when people are getting out of a train, but then move in to let people in. I see it* all the time, so it’s not just isolated weirdness, but seems to be a fairly common and deeply weird attempt at politeness.

    * well, saw it. I moved outta nyc a month ago. I’ll miss elbowing people that stand in the door, that’s for sure.

37. “Regardless, pole-leaning isn’t going to prevent you from having to discuss the issue with strangers; it just means that every so often you’re going get me or somebody like me in a pissy mood saying “Excuse me. I need to hold on here. Can you move?“”

    I stand by my position that a blanket attitude like this is terrible. I’ll go ahead and add ablest while I’m at it. …Especially for the issue of seeking a little extra support on a moving vehicle… Clearly someone like me leaning kinda against a pole or seat because of a compromising health issue makes me an asshole much more so than someone who confronts me and tells me to move away, either on public transportation or here. Thanks for your empathy… *snark*

38. “I stand by my position that a blanket attitude like this is terrible. I’ll go ahead and add ablest while I’m at it. …Especially for the issue of seeking a little extra support on a moving vehicle… Clearly someone like me leaning kinda against a pole or seat because of a compromising health issue makes me an asshole much more so than someone who confronts me and tells me to move away, either on public transportation or here. Thanks for your empathy… *snark*”

    I kind of feel like you’re trying to have it both ways here. You don’t want to have to openly ask people for consideration, which they would be willing to give, because you want to pass as able-bodied. But you think everyone else should at all times be thinking that every person riding the subway might have mobility or other physical difficulties that we should be mindful us at the expense of our own comfort and/or safety?

39. Man, I must just have incredible luck, because I have rarely encountered any of these problems on Seattle buses and trains. O_O The biggest problems I’ve had is with incompetent drivers who decide that curves are evil and must be run over at every possible moment. Or the one yesterday who closed the back door in my face, then refused to open it again, insisting that I run to the front of the bus use the front door.

40. “…… because you want to pass as able-bodied.”

    Srsly ….. WTF?????

    Generally, I don’t find the Hairy Eyeball to be necessary unless/until someone fails to repsond to an “excuse me” or “please”. Or doesn’t proactively reduce space-consumption as a car gets more crowded.

    I think this falls into the category of Always Rude and Inconsiderate:
    On the T (Boston transit) commuters generally are the WORST at getting ON the train/bus, before the exiting passengers have gotten off. This grates me gorganzola to no end. PEOPLE!!!! THERE WILL BE MORE ROOM ON THE CAR IF YOU WAIT FOR EVERYONE TO GET OFF!!!!!!! Jerks.

    @Sara – IME, big, overfilled backpacks are better off on the floor btwn your legs. It’s too easy to whack someone behind you and not realize it. Plus, on your back, they take up the effective space of another person, and are more of a barrier to get around than on the floor.

41. I have my own pet peeves about public transit (particularly crowding near the doors instead of moving to the middle of the car), but I’d say that all of them are less irritating than people who feel entitled to be rude to fellow passengers. If you ask someone to free up the seat next to them or to move their leg over or to get off the pole and they don’t, then by all means have at it. But most people are not actively trying to be jerks to those around them — they’re just distracted or in pain or don’t know the unwritten rules of public transit. If they’re just being careless and you’re actively and proudly rude about it, it seems to me that you’re the one who has bad public transit etiquette.

42. You don’t want to have to openly ask people for consideration, which they would be willing to give, because you want to pass as able-bodied. But you think everyone else should at all times be thinking that every person riding the subway might have mobility or other physical difficulties that we should be mindful us at the expense of our own comfort and/or safety?

    Precisely this. I’m supposed to subordinate my own comfort or safety to yours on the off-chance that you might be disabled but trying to pass, but you don’t have to be mindful of the problems for other people you’re creating by doing that? I don’t think so. If you want or need the consideration, by all means let people know and sit down. If you don’t do that, then yes, you are prioritizing your own comfort and/or safety at the expense of mine, and that falls into the category of “selfish jerk,” as far as I’m concerned.

    If you ask someone to free up the seat next to them or to move their leg over or to get off the pole and they don’t, then by all means have at it. But most people are not actively trying to be jerks to those around them — they’re just distracted or in pain or don’t know the unwritten rules of public transit.

    I find it hard to believe that a significant number of people in NYC just “don’t know the unwritten rules of public transit,” or are in some kind of pain that prevents them from closing their legs or something, especially when a sharp glance at the space they’re taking up and a slight hand motion almost always works to get them to free up the space and move over. It’s a crowded subway; how dense do you have to be to just not know that you should make all space possibly available?

    And then there’s the guy who so resented my friend holding onto the pole and thus preventing him from having a comfortable leaning position that he spent the whole ride grinding his back against her hand deliberately. And the asshole guy who sat down next to me, tried to spread his legs, and when I didn’t automatically cross mine to allow him to reach his widest possible spread, spent the rest of the ride giving me dirty looks and pressing his thighs against mine. These people are not ignorant, and they’re not in pain. They’re assholes.

43. (rare commenter here, but thought I’d jump in with an observation for this one)

    I agree with Esti. I have been known to hog the pole in the underground before now and it’s usually because I’m not feeling very well at all and am too embarrassed to ask for a seat – I wouldn’t describe myself as having a disability, however I do get spells of dizziness when I’m stressed or haven’t managed to eat enough (the two are usually connected) and if there’s no seat available it becomes a choice between hugging the pole or crumbling to the ground.

    People are sometimes tired, lonely, worried, sick. Sometimes, as others have pointed out above, they’re managing a disability. For the most part, they’re not out to inconvenience you personally and in my experience a polite comment will lead most people to either free up space or offer an explanation.

44. People are sometimes tired, lonely, worried, sick. Sometimes, as others have pointed out above, they’re managing a disability.

    All of this applies to those of us who manage to remember that other people are on the subway as well. I get tired, lonely, worried, and sick. I get massive headaches when I haven’t eaten enough and I get pain in my back, neck, and shoulders, that would indeed make it nice, to say the least, to lean against something. And yet. Maintaining the awareness that it’s public transportation, and not my personal boudoir, I pay a modicum of attention to the needs of those around me so they do not have to ask for basic consideration.

    None of those things make it OK to act as though a subway is there for your own convenience. It’s not a question of doing something in order to maliciously inconvenience me personally. It’s a question of being so self-centered that you don’t bother to act with the awareness that other people are on the train and have needs as well. You are probably not the only tired, lonely, worried, hungry, sick, or disabled person on the train. There is somebody else who needs that pole as well.

45. Yes, EG, assholes exist on public transit. I don’t think anyone is unaware of that, which is why I said in my first comment that I had no problem with snapping at people who refuse to to move over. But most people are not out to be a jerk to everyone else on the train or bus. Even if you think that most people are not in pain and do understand how they should behave on public transit, you skipped right over the most likely explanation for inconsiderate transit riders — that people are distracted or they’re being careless.

    I’m not saying that it’s totally fine to be the guy who spreads his legs across two seats or the woman who doesn’t move her purse off the seat next to her or the people who crowd the door, and that the rest of us should accommodate their space-hogging. I’m saying that most of those people are not doing it because they are giant assholes out to ruin everyone’s day, but are instead guilty of the much lesser offense of being human and not always being perfectly considerate of those around them. And I’m saying that if instead of just asking someone to move their leg or their bag, you begin with rudely snapping at someone or shoving them over or huffing angry sighs in their direction, then you’re the person I’m going to find most annoying in my morning subway car.

46. I just don’t make a distinction between “so distracted and careless and self-centered that they forget basic courtesy” and “asshole.” I consider the one a subset of another. It’s like saying “I’m not an asshole; I just cut to the head of the line, stepping on the toes of an old lady because I was distracted and careless and self-centered. Why can’t you just politely remind me not to do that?”

    The point is, I shouldn’t have to politely remind you not to do that, just like I shouldn’t have to politely remind you not to pick your nose and flick snot randomly in public, because it’s basic courtesy.

    But of course, you can find me or anybody else as annoying on the subway as you like. I just don’t agree with your reasons for doing so,

47. Thinking about it, I would go so far as to say that everybody on public transit is some variety of sick, worried, hungry, tired, disabled, or lonely, particularly during rush hour. Almost nobody is thrilled to be there and in the full blush of their best health and happiness. That is exactly why we all have to suck it up and accept some basic inconveniences.

48. I’ve ridden MARTA in Atlanta and city buses all over the South, and have never encountered these behavior problems. Of course, the majority of public transit users here are African-American and are survival-polite, but even TVA rush-hour passengers do better than the examples quoted.

49. The point is, I shouldn’t have to politely remind you not to do that, just like I shouldn’t have to politely remind you not to pick your nose and flick snot randomly in public, because it’s basic courtesy.

    LMAO! You’re right about that, EG — it’s not that hard to pick your nose less obtrusively and discreetly wipe the booger on the underneath of the seat.

50. Seth Eag, that’s highly ableist. You can sit somewhere else! I can’t change the fact that I have auditory and sequential processing disorders. And what about people who don’t speak English? Are they allowed to ride the subway? If you don’t like bodies in your proximity, maybe cities are not ideal for you.

51. Ok so I can’t even handle reading all the responses anymore and don’t have the emotional fortitude to respond individually to each one, so instead I’ve decided to share the comment I left on Shakesville’s open thread because of the emotionally-supportive and sensitive commenting community there.

    I was just going to let it be and not come back to this thread, but I’m hoping that in speaking my mind, I am acting on behalf of those with disabilities and the larger goal of intersectional feminism. Here is what I left on the Shakeville open comment thread in full:

    “*trigger warning for discussions of hateful ablism and exterminationist sentiments (experienced on a feminist website!!!)

    Hi everyone, I’m coming here to vent. (I read this site and comments ALL the time but don’t post much.) It seems I just got into an argument at Feministe on the subway pole post for reminding the comment readers that sometimes people need to balance themselves a little extra on moving public transportation vehicles if they aren’t as able-bodied as they appear. I made the mistake of sharing my own experience with having a health issue that makes it more difficult to balance at times yet I pass as able-bodied and didn’t want to out myself about a condition that is personally traumatizing and that I am hiding from colleagues and friends in order to ask for seats on the bus when I can just lean a little extra on the pole in the standing room.

    Oh. My. God. Talk about attacking me. Everything from “move!” to scoffing the fact that the condition might be traumatizing to also not believing and verbally taking me down for wanting to pass as able-bodied to the extent that I can.

    Not that discrimination happens as soon as anyone learns my condition or anything. Not that it might be professionally damaging because of all the disability discrimination that exists in every profession or anything. Not that the comment to just move triggered all of the people who have told me to kill myself or quit my Ph.D. program because of my illness or anything.

    I am so upset and kinda shaking and almost in tears. I guess I had higher expectations from the feministe crowd. I can’t even read it or respond from all of the hateful attacks because my supposedly imperfect body might kinda sorta “be in their way” both conceptually and physically. Wow. Just wow.

    I SO much appreciate the sensitive, thoughtful, brilliant, and amazing commenters here! I really wouldn’t recommend looking at the comments on that post if you are extremely sensitive about a disability. I know I can’t emotionally take it and couldn’t read all the hateful remarks. I guess my hope and dream that feminism is actually intersectional fails in major ways sometimes…”

    I expect this will be torn to shreds but I’m hoping this functions more as a call to rethink some of the positions expressed here and to consider others’ needs and differences.

52. I’ll posit that “basic” courtesy (such as holding your kids) might not require the same amount of effort for everyone. What’s basic for me might not be so basic–for any number of reasons–for someone else, or for me if my body isn’t doing so well.

    Hypothetical: Assume that the bus is reasonably full but not jammed. All the “reserved” seats are already taken, by people who have an obvious* need for the seat. My knee is flaring up and I have an Ace wrap on it (under my pants–not visible to public), but walking more than a block isn’t a good idea (otherwise, I’d walk) and frankly I should have my knee extended. If I don’t extend the knee, it hurts and lengthens the flare-up. I absolutely must make this trip and the bus is the only feasible option.
    *Mobility aid (including wheelchair use), limb immobilized, etc.
    Am I an asshole for:
    a) taking a seat and putting my leg up, provided it doesn’t block any other seats?
    b) as A, but my leg blocks access to a seat?
    c) asking someone in a non-mobility-problem seat to move so I could sit?
    d) pulling up my pant leg to show the Ace wrap, because the person in C said I didn’t look disabled?
    e) straphanging with my leg out so the knee is extended?
    f) bracing against a vertical surface such as a pole, so I can extend my knee but not block the aisle?
    g) refusing to relinquish my seat (once I get one), citing the knee but not displaying the wrap, to someone who
    1) is carrying a small child?
    2) has a cart full of groceries?
    3) uses a cane?
    h) as G, but I display the wrap?

    Thanks for your time and consideration.

53. I actually have a good friend who can’t hold onto poles or overhead hangs due to a disability affecting her elbows and wrists, who regularly requests such seats during rush hours (I’ve been with her when she does) and nobody has ever not immediately stood up and given her the seat.

    EG, I respect this has been true for your friend, but it’s pretty much opposite to my experience in my city. We do have public transit policies regarding seats for disabled passengers, but given the demographic of folks who ride public transit here, sometimes there are not enough accessible seats, especially on a crowded bus that needs to merge with traffic again. I’ve tried asking, but in those cases, the most positive answers I’ve received have been, “I’m not sure where I can move to,” and, “I’m sorry, but I need this seat too.” Other responses, actually slightly more common, have involved, “You have got to be kidding me,” and, “What’s wrong with you, that you need this seat?”

    I’m not going to put myself through that every time I step on a crowded bus.

54. Whole lot of class-based judgement up in here about clothing and food.

55. None of those things make it OK to act as though a subway is there for your own convenience. It’s not a question of doing something in order to maliciously inconvenience me personally. It’s a question of being so self-centered that you don’t bother to act with the awareness that other people are on the train and have needs as well.

    Um, ok. So basically you’re saying that if I’m caught by a dizzy spell while on public transport I ought to let myself faint in a carriage full of strangers because you think it’s too burdensome to have to ask somebody if they could please move over? Otherwise, I’m self-centred to the point of believing the underground was build for my personal convenience and lack all awareness of the needs of others or in fact of their very presence on the metro with me? Wow.

    Thinking about it, I would go so far as to say that everybody on public transit is some variety of sick, worried, hungry, tired, disabled, or lonely, particularly during rush hour. Almost nobody is thrilled to be there and in the full blush of their best health and happiness.

    That’s a bit extreme. I don’t live in NYC, but personally, in most cities, I rather like using the metro. And no, I am not always sick, worried, hungry, tired, disabled or lonely and my fellow passengers don’t look that way to me either. I will treat strangers with kindness and compassion. I refuse to treat them as if they are all probably constantly at breaking point and can’t afford to give an inch on the rare occassions when I really, really need it and don’t want to tell me so either because that would also be a huge inconvenience.

56. Is it really better if we put our backpacks on the floor?

    Yes! A lot of people simply don’t seem to realize how much volume their backpacks occupy when worn. Placing them on the floor between or in front of your feet, or holding them in front of you by one of the straps, or the handle on top if one exists, helps decrease the apparent passenger density. It may eat up the same amount of volume, but not necessarily at a height where people’s faces and torsos also tend to be. I learned this the hard way by accidentally whacking someone with a backpack I was wearing, and made damned sure to remove it in the future. A half-empty backpack is less of a problem. Unfortunately, the bus route I take to work is full of people who seem to keep their sacks at capacity.

    I’m not strong enough to hold my backpack in my arms for any extended period of time. There’s really only two options – on my back, where I can move it quickly if someone needs to get by, or on the floor, where I cannot move it easily.

    Is there a reason picking it up when necessary to allow passenger movement isn’t an option? You can get away with wearing your backpack on a vehicle during off-peak hours, but during rush hour it’s troublesome and highly inconvenient for anyone trying to move around that extra obstruction. It’s good that you check before turning. A lot of people don’t.

    1. Seriously, BACK PACKS ON THE FLOOR. I carry a giant yoga bag back and forth from Brooklyn to Midtown almost ever day. It is heavy. It is a pain. It goes on the floor between my feet so that it’s not in everyone’s way.

57. Heh… forgot that first closing tag there… d’oh.

58. the majority of public transit users here are African-American and are survival-polite

    Thanks for using this term. I know exactly what you mean, but I’ve never seen such an apt term for it.

    On the way home this evening, I sat between a man-sitter who was tapping his heel to music I could hear and a woman who kept flipping her hair so that it hit my chin. It is a sick, sick world we live in.

    I get that a lot of you use public transportation constantly, so what might otherwise be a small annoyance can become a huge grievance.

    And I get that this thread is an opportunity to vent, so people are just letting off some steam.

    But a little perspective is cool, too.

59. Re: accusations of ableism

    *sigh*

    Ok.

    If you actually have a physical need that requires leaning on a pole, taking up an extra seat, or placing your belongings in a position that may be inconvenient for other passengers, you are not part of the problem others are complaining about. The focus, from what I understood, was those individuals who do not have good reasons for taking up space that other passengers, including disabled ones, can make use of, and are merely being ignorant, careless, or rude. Were those individuals to refrain from engaging in their space-hogging behaviour, there would be more room available for those who do require various accomodations – and probably more patience from other passengers toward those who do need to eat up space but wish to pass as fully-abled, since they would be less likely to initially assume rudeness on the part of a given individual. Person with a muscular disorder that can wear, but not necessarily carry a backpack who ensures other people aren’t being blocked or whacked by the pack? Cool! People who turn in all directions to chat with their friends while seated passengers duck and weave, and stand by the back doors in a manner that blocks access to the door? Rude! People who need to lean against a pole? Peachy! People who choose to lean against a pole because they’re too cool for school? Annoying!

    I have to ask for accomodation and assistance with my own limitations a couple of times a week (I can pass most of the time). It’s humiliating, but necessary. I also sometimes have to stand very close to things in order to read them (or, try to, anyway; frakkin’ small text). I worry about blocking others’ view of whatever I’m trying to read and inconveniencing them. I know they’re not telepaths, and therefore may have to field an annoyed look or request to move. I absolutely loathe the thought that someone else may be annoyed with me due to something I’m doing, All I can do is explain my particular needs and hope they believe me.

    Got another one here – I occasionally encounter complaints about people who wear sunglasses indoors, or on cloudy days, the initial assumption being that individuals who do so are pretentious jerks. Most of the time, this may not be completely inaccurate. Thanks to fudged-up light receptors and the prevalence of bright lights, I actually have to do this fairly often in stores and other places in order to comfortably see. A friend complained about indoor sunglass wearing two days ago – less than half an hour after we’d been at a table in a big box store where I did exactly that. I don’t think he realized what he said.

    I guess what I’m boiling this down to is that assholes make life harder for PWD by engaging in behaviours out of entitlement or ignorance that are actually necessary for us, instilling a tendency toward negative assumptions in others.

60. If people are leaning against the pole due to hidden disabilities, why do they push back against your hand? When someone is literally jabbing me in the hand in order to lean against the pole, what disability can they have? And does it affect some politeness gene?

    The reality is that maybe 1 in every 1000 men sitting with their legs spread over 1.5 seats actually has some “invisible” medical condition which makes it difficult and upsetting for them to cede half of my seat. Should I give a pass to every single man that I see or assume they are an asshole unless otherwise instructed?

    Because pole leaning is MORE ANNOYING. And there is often that glint of self righteousness in the pole leaner’s eye. Or the eye of the friend of the pole leaner. Honestly, you can see them run through a gamut of emotions – shock, frustration, anger, usually followed by a pithy sarcastic comment from their co conspirator. Then they lean more heavily. They NEVER ask politely. I never respond verbally because I KNOW HOW TO BEHAVE on public transport. I simply smile very politely and then turn my hand so they have to press against my knuckles. Always keep smiling though.

61. I’ve ridden MARTA in Atlanta and city buses all over the South, and have never encountered these behavior problems. Of course, the majority of public transit users here are African-American and are survival-polite, but even TVA rush-hour passengers do better than the examples quoted.

    Angie unduplicated,

    I’m probably going to get spanked here for this, but here goes: It’s also a Southern thing. I moved to Richmond for a year in 93 and was shocked at the relaxed and slow attitude people have. People almost never honk their horns. While people in most cities will open doors for you if you’re carrying something, people in the South will run 20ft out of their way to do it. Stores will bring your groceries to your car. This year I was back there on business and went to a grocery store and they insisted on taking my stuff to my car, even though I said twice I didn’t need it. If you buy a $100 worth of stuff and forget your money, they just tell you to bring the money in tomorrow. It’s changing now that more Northerners are moving down there, but 20 years ago the slow pace of life was downright strange. They still have some of that left.

    And the treatment you get on buses and trains in almost like an Alphonse and Gaston routine.

62. I refuse to treat them as if they are all probably constantly at breaking point and can’t afford to give an inch on the rare occassions when I really, really need it and don’t want to tell me so either because that would also be a huge inconvenience.

    Well, you know what? Right back atcha. I refuse to assume that anybody engaging in selfish, thoughtless behavior on the subway is probably at some kind of breaking point and can’t afford to give an inch but don’t want to tell me so either because that would also be a huge inconvenience. You included being “stressed” as something that could trigger a dizzy spell, and you know what? Everybody in the subway is stressed. Especially when the car is crowded. I’ve been sick on public transportation–it’s not like you’re explaining some foreign concept to me. And yet. I managed to bear other people’s needs in mind.

    On my way to my father’s this morning, a young woman was leaning against the pole. I assumed she was a self-centered twit. My assumption was confirmed when she tried to get to an open seat, and on the way, stepped on my foot. She felt that she had stepped on something, looked down, moved her foot away, saw she had lost the seat, and then went back to her pole and leaned on it without at any point saying “sorry” to me or acknowledging that she had stepped on my foot. I’ll continue to keep track of pole-leaning behavior, but as a random example, this seems quite typical to me.

63. It’s also a Southern thing. I moved to Richmond for a year in 93 and was shocked at the relaxed and slow attitude people have. People almost never honk their horns. While people in most cities will open doors for you if you’re carrying something, people in the

    South will run 20ft out of their way to do it. Stores will bring your groceries to your car. This year I was back there on business and went to a grocery store and they insisted on taking my stuff to my car, even though I said twice I didn’t need it. If you buy a $100 worth of stuff and forget your money, they just tell you to bring the money in tomorrow. It’s changing now that more Northerners are moving down there, but 20 years ago the slow pace of life was downright strange. They still have some of that left.

    And the treatment you get on buses and trains in almost like an Alphonse and Gaston routine.

    Assuming you’re a cis white guy? Sure.

64. ^
    Block quote fail. Only the very last sentence is mine.

65. If you actually have a physical need that requires leaning on a pole, taking up an extra seat, or placing your belongings in a position that may be inconvenient for other passengers, you are not part of the problem others are complaining about.

    Just to be clear, because I do dislike it when commenters twist the discussion in order to take people’s remarks personally: maybe this is not part of the problem you are talking about, auditorydamage, but it seems pretty clear that EG does not make that concession. I agree that it’s rude to take up more than your fair share of space out of disregard for other commuters. But I also think it’s generally a good idea to give others the benefit of the doubt, at least when they are not e.g. happily tapping their foot to the music playing loudly on their mobile phone for the benefit of the whole carriage while sprawled along three seats when others are forced to stand.

    I guess what I’m boiling this down to is that assholes make life harder for PWD by engaging in behaviours out of entitlement or ignorance that are actually necessary for us, instilling a tendency toward negative assumptions in others.

    See I’m more of the opinion that, barring instances of obvious rudeness, we should try to be tolerant of each other anyway, without waiting for Uncontroversial Proof of Disability. We are all vulnerable once in a while and will not always be performing at our best. Acknowledging that reality might take us a long way to accepting people with disabilities as equals as opposed to weirdos who require special accommodation for behaviour that would otherwise be complete unacceptable.

    You included being “stressed” as something that could trigger a dizzy spell, and you know what? Everybody in the subway is stressed.

    Um, to be honest I think you’re wilfully misunderstanding, but ok, I’ll clarify: I don’t think that being stressed or hungry entitles me to take over the pole on the metro. But on the rare occasion when my stress or hunger manifests as faintness, I have to lean on something to prop myself up or I will black out. In these cases I am unapologetic about doing so. It’s not a difficult distinction to make.

    Also, no, not everybody in a subway is stressed.

    Anyway, I have a flight to catch so I think I’ll bow out of this discussion.

66. Ok so I can’t even handle reading all the responses anymore and don’t have the emotional fortitude to respond individually to each one, so instead I’ve decided to share the comment I left on Shakesville’s open thread because of the emotionally-supportive and sensitive commenting community there.

    I was just going to let it be and not come back to this thread, but I’m hoping that in speaking my mind, I am acting on behalf of those with disabilities and the larger goal of intersectional feminism. Here is what I left on the Shakeville open comment thread in full:

    “*trigger warning for discussions of hateful ablism and exterminationist sentiments (experienced on a feminist website!!!)

    Hi everyone, I’m coming here to vent. (I read this site and comments ALL the time but don’t post much.) It seems I just got into an argument at Feministe on the subway pole post for reminding the comment readers that sometimes people need to balance themselves a little extra on moving public transportation vehicles if they aren’t as able-bodied as they appear. I made the mistake of sharing my own experience with having a health issue that makes it more difficult to balance at times yet I pass as able-bodied and didn’t want to out myself about a condition that is personally traumatizing and that I am hiding from colleagues and friends in order to ask for seats on the bus when I can just lean a little extra on the pole in the standing room.

    Oh. My. God. Talk about attacking me. Everything from “move!” to scoffing the fact that the condition might be traumatizing to also not believing and verbally taking me down for wanting to pass as able-bodied to the extent that I can.

    Not that discrimination happens as soon as anyone learns my condition or anything. Not that it might be professionally damaging because of all the disability discrimination that exists in every profession or anything. Not that the comment to just move triggered all of the people who have told me to kill myself or quit my Ph.D. program because of my illness or anything.

    I am so upset and kinda shaking and almost in tears. I guess I had higher expectations from the feministe crowd. I can’t even read it or respond from all of the hateful attacks because my supposedly imperfect body might kinda sorta “be in their way” both conceptually and physically. Wow. Just wow.

    I SO much appreciate the sensitive, thoughtful, brilliant, and amazing commenters here! I really wouldn’t recommend looking at the comments on that post if you are extremely sensitive about a disability. I know I can’t emotionally take it and couldn’t read all the hateful remarks. I guess my hope and dream that feminism is actually intersectional fails in major ways sometimes…”

    I expect this will be torn to shreds but I’m hoping this functions more as a call to rethink some of the positions expressed here and to consider others’ needs and differences.

    I find this very manipulative. If you’re going to vent about how mean the commenters are at Feministe, why post here to tell us about it? Maybe I’m just used to the style of commenting here and the regular commenters, but it doesn’t seem that anybody went out of their way to be mean to you. People disagreed with you.

    Back on topic, I commute by public transit every day. My biggest pet peeves are people who block the backdoors on buses and streetcars, and people who don’t move to the back of the bus/streetcar or middle of the subway, even after the driver or other passengers ask people to move. I’m truly sorry you can’t chat with your friend who is sitting down, but other people need to get to work/school/wherever they’re going.

67. Also, no, not everybody in a subway is stressed.

    Since the original context of my statement included the phrase “during rush hour,” yes, everybody is. Nobody on the subway during rush hour is not stressed, because the experience of being in the subway during rush hour is stressful.

    And again, I know what it’s like to be sick in the subway. I have been sick on the subway. I have been sick on the subway during rush hour on my way to work, and I have been sick on the bus on my way to work. You are not describing some kind of alien experience of being that I just do not have sympathy with because of my privilege. Being sick doesn’t entitle anybody not to think of others, and more, the fact that every so often, somebody is sick is not sufficient reason to treat all people not thinking of others as if they might be sick.

    But our main difference is this: I don’t give people the benefit of the doubt when in 99.44% of cases, it is unwarranted. My experience is that plenty of people are selfish jerks, and that this manifests on public transit every. single. day. (Are you the first person in a two-person seat block on a bus? Move the fuck in towards the window so somebody else can sit down. Don’t sit on the outside seat, thus making it that much more of a chore for the second seat to be used.) I’ve been riding public transit a long time. I’ve seen asshole behavior and I’ve seen decent human being behavior. I feel quite confident in my ability to tell the difference, and quite comfortable with the lines I draw.

68. Eh. I try to take a breath and assume that people pole-hanging, or whatever, deserve the benefit of the doubt. But I do that because it makes ME feel better. Being pissed at seeming legions of assholes every day does little for my blood pressure.

    So…yeah, it might be that people are just that inconsiderate. But I pretend they aren’t and let it go. But then, I have been known to eat on the subway, stay near the door, put my bag next to me, and routinely sit on the aisle seat of the Bolt Bus. (Do I do any of this at rush hour/when no other seats are open, no, but that hasn’t stopped the drive-by anger from the masses).

69. I also think it’s generally a good idea to give others the benefit of the doubt, at least when they are not e.g. happily tapping their foot to the music playing loudly on their mobile phone for the benefit of the whole carriage while sprawled along three seats when others are forced to stand.

    The thing is, it’s extremely hard to give those people the benefit of the doubt when you encounter them every day, multiple times a day, and when their actions make you a problem passenger as well – or make it impossible for you to take care of your own issues.

    There are a lot of people who are very well versed in public transit etiquette. There are a lot of helpful and polite people who ride public transit. There are also a lot of assholes. And anyone can easily flip from one group to the other depending on the day. I try to be polite when riding the subway. I sometimes am the asshole. And I leave my apartment at 6 am and don’t return to it before 7 pm every week day, and I spend around four hours of that time on various forms of public transit.

    There is a chance that the pole leaner has some kind of invisible disability they don’t want to announce to a car full of people. Cool. So do I. There is a chance the pole leaner is someone who is feeling dizzy and as if they may pass out. Cool. On certain days, I have those exact same symptoms. And that person body hugging the pole, and that other person taking up two seats, and that third person who won’t move further into the car are leaving me in an extremely vulnurable position, because sometimes there is literally no where for me to go. And sometimes, there’s just the fact that I’ve been up for around or over 14 hours and I just want to make it to where I’m going in relative peace.

    Now, I would love to survey all those around me with understanding and kindness, because everyone is fighting a hard battle. But a little understanding and kindness on the part of others goes a long way too. The girl who speared my foot with a stiletto, but who apologized and looked horrified as it was happening? She gets a pass – and probably would if she’d done only one of those two things – even though my foot hurt for a couple days. The guy who flopped against the pole I was already holding onto and pushed his body into my hand as if I were irritating him by refusing to move? He didn’t hurt me, but I’m still fuming thinking about it.

    I think most of the things that upset people about subway etiquette violations is the way it turns the person who is wronged invisible. It doesn’t take that much to be polite if you need to do something outside the regular realm of acceptable behavior. But it does require that you value others’ needs as well. And if you’re not prepared to take that step for whatever reason (I have an anxiety disorder that sometimes makes speaking to people I don’t know difficult), just accept the fact that they have the right to consider you an asshole.

70. @68, Yeah, nothing says manipulative like a member of an oppressed minority group talking about their experiences.

    I’m not saying every person who has ever inconvenienced you did so because they are disabled, but – responding to a person who IDs as disabled and saying that they are inconveniencing you by trying to pass and that they should just ask for consideration is fucking foul. I want to know exactly which marginalized group this has ever worked for.

71. If years spent in mosh pits have taught me one thing, its how to gracefully aim myself while falling. And by “gracefully” I do, of course, mean “with great speed, impact area, and maximum kinetic energy transfer.” Not that I would ever be so passive aggressive as to hurl my pale 280 pound ass into someone whose only crime was to hog the goddamn pole before making a snarky comment about how it wouldn’t have happened if only I’d had something to hold onto.

    I totally wouldn’t do that.

    I also would never sit on a hipster’s backpack after he pointedly ignored an elderly woman’s polite request for him to move it so her could sit down. I wouldn’t order him to give up his seat to her either.

    Totally.

72. “@68, Yeah, nothing says manipulative like a member of an oppressed minority group talking about their experiences.

    I’m not saying every person who has ever inconvenienced you did so because they are disabled, but – responding to a person who IDs as disabled and saying that they are inconveniencing you by trying to pass and that they should just ask for consideration is fucking foul. I want to know exactly which marginalized group this has ever worked for.”

    Can I hug you? Cause this is awesome. <3 Thank you!

73. “See I’m more of the opinion that, barring instances of obvious rudeness, we should try to be tolerant of each other anyway, without waiting for Uncontroversial Proof of Disability. We are all vulnerable once in a while and will not always be performing at our best. Acknowledging that reality might take us a long way to accepting people with disabilities as equals as opposed to weirdos who require special accommodation for behaviour that would otherwise be complete unacceptable.”

    I <3 you too. Just so you know. Yes _this_. Please.

74. @68, Yeah, nothing says manipulative like a member of an oppressed minority group talking about their experiences.

    I’m not saying every person who has ever inconvenienced you did so because they are disabled, but – responding to a person who IDs as disabled and saying that they are inconveniencing you by trying to pass and that they should just ask for consideration is fucking foul. I want to know exactly which marginalized group this has ever worked for.

    Maybe I was not clear, but I was referring specifically to Marissa123’s reposting a comment originally posted on Shakesville about how mean the commenters on feministe are. I thought I clearly differentiated between the part of my comment where I was replying to Marissa and the part where I was complaining about people who are rude on public transit (by blocking entrances and exits), but I guess not.

75. It doesn’t take that much to be polite if you need to do something outside the regular realm of acceptable behavior. But it does require that you value others’ needs as well. And if you’re not prepared to take that step for whatever reason (I have an anxiety disorder that sometimes makes speaking to people I don’t know difficult), just accept the fact that they have the right to consider you an asshole.

    This, right here. Some commenters are acting as if I have said “even if you’re disabled, you should be thrown of the train for leaning on a subway pole.” What I have said is that I will consider you an asshole unless you in some way indicate to me that you’re not one. And if you don’t want to, that’s your business, but then you don’t get the benefit of the doubt. And, horrors, you might actually have to interact with a version of me who is not being super-polite. I’m so sorry that it’s such a massive inconvenience that sometimes people need to hold onto the pole or sit in the space you’re taking up with your spread legs and somehow can’t read your mind, and so some communication might be needed, but that is the way of it.

    Being pissed at seeming legions of assholes every day does little for my blood pressure.

    This is interesting to me, because it is such an innate temperament thing. If I had to grit my teeth and say to myself, “I’m sure that young woman has a really good reason for leaning on that pole and stepping on my foot” twenty times a day, I’m pretty sure I’d have an aneurysm or something, whereas once I can think “what an asshole that selfish twit is,” I can mentally roll my eyes and go on with my day. But I’ve met enough people, like you, chataya, for whom it is the other way that it’s clear to me that this is just a personality difference.

76. This is interesting to me, because it is such an innate temperament thing. If I had to grit my teeth and say to myself, “I’m sure that young woman has a really good reason for leaning on that pole and stepping on my foot” twenty times a day, I’m pretty sure I’d have an aneurysm or something, whereas once I can think “what an asshole that selfish twit is,” I can mentally roll my eyes and go on with my day. But I’ve met enough people, like you, chataya, for whom it is the other way that it’s clear to me that this is just a personality difference.

    Whatever keeps you from shooting up the subway in a haze of rage, man. But yeah, I think how I handle it is just an individual quirk.

77. Chava, not chataya! My apologies for the mistake.

78. “Maybe I was not clear, but I was referring specifically to Marissa123′s reposting a comment originally posted on Shakesville about how mean the commenters on feministe are.”

    Yeah? the reason I did that? I was triggered as all hell by, yes, mean commenters, who were scoffing at me for being traumatized by a health condition and maybe wanting to pass so that I have a slim chance of maybe making it in my career. (I am not going to come out to friends and colleagues if I don’t have to because it will destroy my professional chances. Despite disability discrimination laws, much like the equal pay act, it often doesn’t do shit.) I didn’t want to rehash every negative comments because I was on the verge of nervous breakdown from privileged-assed commenters who couldn’t conceive of the possibility that maybe disability discrimination exists and thus justifying being an asshole openly to differently abled individuals (i.e, EG who basically said to suck it up), without considering for a second that maybe they might be making too many generalizations without considering exceptions. On this thread I have also been subject to one commenter not believing that invisible disabilities exist, placing the term in scare quotes, all the while ranting about how inconvenienced they are that one might want to pass as non-disabled. For your information, all that it takes for me to pass lately, because I am lucky enough to be able to do so, is to maybe lean a little extra on a pole when my health issues are flaring up. I’m sorry I’m not wearing a fucking sign that lists my very stigmatizing condition, because you would think I’m young and healthy by just looking at me, and thus not making your simplified categorization of my identity category that much easier.

    Uhg this thread is a fucking mess of privileged, self-important bullshit! And yes I am triggered by it and it is because of all of the reasons I listed in my reposted comment from another website. I’m sorry my less than perfect body is infecting your space and taking up a few extra inches of your stupid pole without first explaining to every fucking person around me why I might be clutching to that pole a little more than the rest of the commuters around me.

    Also, this is not a means to advocate for people to be asshole commuters. I’m also put off by people who insist on standing _in_ the exit doorway. I’m seriously pissed by the man-sit because there are long histories of men taking over space occupied physically and emotionally by women. You don’t see men man-sitting other men so much. The pole issue is extremely different because mobility/stability issues are FAR more common than anything that might warrant the man-sit. But there are also histories of people wanting to and actually exterminating disabled people and these histories come through over and over again in daily forms of discrimination – hence my desire to pass. Friends, family, lovers, and colleagues have all expressed eliminationist sentiments to me upon finding out about my condition. Passing to the extent that I can is an essential tactic of survival. So overall, my statement about this discussion is: what the fuck?!

79. I get the feeling that some people think that EG, and others who’ve expressed similar sentiments, not only proceed on the default assumption that people who engage in these behaviors in crowded public transportation are assholes — given that the vast majority of the time they probably are, even though occasionally the assumption proves wrong — but actively treat them as such, and go around glaring and spitting and cursing and shoving and snarling “get out of my way, you fucking asshole” at all of them, all the time, thereby victimizing not only the actual assholes, but those who have invisible disabilities. Not that I’ve ever shared public transportation with EG or any of you (to the best of my knowledge), and not that you aren’t all eminently capable of defending yourselves, but I somehow doubt that’s the case. There’s a large area between being like that, and being unfailingly polite and gracious all the time, and I suspect that vast middle is where EG falls and most people fall. In which case, I don’t see how either her assumptions or her actions are ablist, or do harm. I think it’s asking way too much of people who have to deal with NYC public transportation on a daily basis, and don’t happen to be blessed with the patience of a saint, and often feel unwell themselves, to proceed on a default assumption that’s not only counter-intuitive, but contrary to reality, simply because one time in 100 or even one time in 10 someone *isn’t* being an asshole, and has a disability or simply feels sick, but their disability or other issue is invisible, and they don’t say that they need to do what they’re doing. As long as she doesn’t actively mistreat people — in other words, behave badly herself — where’s the harm? Where’s the ablism?

    Also, I don’t think EG was telling anyone that they have to disclose their disability and shouldn’t try to “pass” as non-disabled; I’m sure she’s well aware of all the very good reasons people have for not wanting to be perceived as having a disability. Instead, I think that her point was that if you do have an invisible disability, and don’t say anything at all to anyone in this kind of situation (even if it’s just “sorry, I’m really not feeling well”), then it isn’t fair to criticize someone who assumes that you don’t have a good reason, and are just being an asshole like most others who engage in those types of behavior — especially if that someone doesn’t behave like an asshole herself.

    And I say this as someone who has an invisible disability, and often feels faint and dizzy on public transportation, especially when I’m tired and dehydrated (which often happens to me, given that I don’t have a large intestine), and carrying a lot of stuff; I sometimes feel that if I don’t have a seat my only alternative to collapsing on the floor is, yes, to grab onto the pole and hang on for dear life. Sometimes I have explained to people that I don’t feel well, but mostly I just shut my eyes and don’t really care what anyone thinks. If I don’t know it, it doesn’t hurt me. And I can’t blame them if I don’t say anything.

    Fortunately, now that I’m advancing in middle age, people do sometimes offer to give me their seats. It happens way more on the subway than the bus, for whatever reason. Naturally, the people least likely to give up their seats to the elderly, the visibly ill or disabled, pregnant women, people with small children, etc., tend to be young white guys in suits. Not to engage in invidious stereotyping or anything, but it’s true. Tonight on the A train, one guy like that practically ran over me trying to take a vacant seat when someone got off at 59th Street; I was able to block him, and said “excuse me” in a loud voice, and sat down triumphantly.

    There’s one thing about which I do disagree with EG, though. *My* unwritten rulebook of city bus etiquette says it’s absolutely OK to take the aisle seat in an empty two-seat row. First come, first served, I say. As long as I’m willing to get up promptly to let people into and out of the window seat, what’s the harm? People point; I get up. No problem. Why should I get stuck in the window seat if I don’t have to, and risk having someone sit next to me who maybe won’t get up so promptly? I should miss my stop? Feh!

80. Since the original context of my statement included the phrase “during rush hour,” yes, everybody is. Nobody on the subway during rush hour is not stressed, because the experience of being in the subway during rush hour is stressful.

    Well, you seemed to be very well-informed about the experiences of others. Ok then, everybody on the subway during rush hour is always stressed, regardless of whether they found a seat or not or whether they’re in a hurry or not or how the rest of their day has been or whether they have good company or a good book to read or music to listen to or how long their journey is. Everybody always without exception is stressed – except for me. Because personally when I had a daily 1 ½ hour commute to school I found the best tactic was to sit back and relax and possibly take a nap, but whatever.

    What I have said is that I will consider you an asshole unless you in some way indicate to me that you’re not one.

    Which is fine. And if we ever run into each other on the metro I guess we will both loathe each other and – after I have apologised and you have scowled at me – go on our ways thinking the other is rude and that’s ok. But just to be clear, that was not what you were saying above. What you were saying is that, no matter how you’re feeling or what kind of physical impediment you might be facing, you *always* manage to put the convenience of others first and anybody who finds themselves in a position where they cannot do that that and also take good care of themselves is an asshole. Which is something slightly different.

81. Pingback: City Living | Lynley Stace

82. I have apologised and you have scowled at me – go on our ways thinking the other is rude and that’s ok.

    Actually, I think if you were to apologize for whatever minor inconvenience was created, I don’t think EG would think you were rude. What I’ve taken from EG is that if you’re doing something rude or that makes public transit difficult for others and you do nothing to indicate why you are doing so, she reserves the right to think you’re an asshole. If you’re doing something rude or that makes public transit difficult for others and you do something to offset it – apologize or make a “my bad” face – she’s probably not going to think you’re an asshole.

    If someone were to walk up to me and ask, “May I lean against this pole?” I would probably make an effort to accommodate them, no questions asked.

    What you were saying is that, no matter how you’re feeling or what kind of physical impediment you might be facing, you *always* manage to put the convenience of others first and anybody who finds themselves in a position where they cannot do that that and also take good care of themselves is an asshole. Which is something slightly different.

    I’m not EG, but what I got from her comments is that isn’t that others’ convenience has to come first, but they should be one the list. And if others’ transit experience isn’t on the list, then others have the right to think you’re an asshole. Because unless you manage to communicate otherwise, you’re behaving just like all of the assholes.

    Frankly, I don’t see what’s so bad about considering someone an asshole in the privacy of my own head. The most I do in real life is ask, “Could you move?” The “asshole” part remains completely unsaid, generally. And I accept that when I have been rude – wittingly or unwittingly – the people for whom I’ve made life more difficult for can reserve the right to think I’m rude without wondering if I am just really into the podcast im listening to or if I’ve misjudged my sugar intake for the day and may pass out.

83. Maybe I was not clear, but I was referring specifically to Marissa123′s reposting a comment originally posted on Shakesville about how mean the commenters on feministe are

    Nope – that was completely clear, but I wasn’t. The second paragraph was aimed at Kathryn @39, who I think said something that was frankly heinous. Apologies. That said, I still don’t think reposting her comment is manipulative. If someone said shit to me like what was said @39, I wouldn’t feel comfortable standing up to them here, either. If reposting something that expressed my discomfort was the best way I could stand up for myself, more power to me. It’s not like commenters of Shakesville descended onto the post to condemn the shit out of this thread, right? Where is the manipulation?

    Feministe has long had an issue with dis/ableism. It’s gotten better in the past few months (from when calling out ableism was a joke in a fit of irony because it kind of mirrors how some dudes laugh when women point out rape culture and call it “sexism”), but yeah – when someone says something to the effect of “You need to out yourself so I’m not grumpy for the rest of the morning because it’s too much to ask of me to give everyone the benefit of the doubt” to someone who actually IDed herself as disabled in a comment, more power to Marissa for getting herself heard if she didn’t think she could do it here.

    And I get it! Sometimes people ARE assholes! But Marissa is obviously not trying to have it “both ways,” as Kathryn insinuated. She’s just trying to get by. Like almost every other person ever.

84. What you were saying is that, no matter how you’re feeling or what kind of physical impediment you might be facing, you *always* manage to put the convenience of others first and anybody who finds themselves in a position where they cannot do that that and also take good care of themselves is an asshole.

    That’s such a massive misinterpretation of what I said that I don’t even know what to do with it. Go back and reread the thread, and you’ll find that I was told that making the categorical judgment that people who hog the pole and spread their legs are assholes was a “terrible” thing to do, even when the people doing so are giving no indication that they’re doing so for any reason except general asshole-ness. Yes, “terrible.” The idea is that I’m supposed to assume that anybody doing that is in the position of managing some invisible disability that on the one hand they don’t want to draw attention to by requesting the seats reserved for them but on the other I’m somehow supposed to magically know about, and that’s called “giving the benefit of the doubt.”

    What I have said is that being stressed, lonely, hungry, tired, disabled, in pain does not make you special. It makes you just like everybody else on the subway. When you are inconveniencing a third of a car full of people, you are inconveniencing people in those positions as well. And yes, I have been in that position and magically not decided that it entitled me to screw everybody else over. I never before thought that made me some kind of saint, or even unusual, but I’m assuming from your tone that it must.

    Of course, assuming that the same might be true for the people you’re inconveniencing was considered beyond the pale.

    Where you got the idea that I would scowl at somebody who apologized is beyond me. The whole point is that people are claiming that mentioning the invisible disability is so traumatic that being forced to do so is a horrible imposition, so they’re not apologizing, even when it’s clear that they’re imposing on other people.

    Everybody always without exception is stressed – except for me. Because personally when I had a daily 1 ½ hour commute to school I found the best tactic was to sit back and relax and possibly take a nap, but whatever.

    Tell me, were you doing this on the IRT during rush hour? Or the 7 on the way into Manhattan during the morning rush? How many times did you have to change trains during this commute? I’m just curious.

85. So, Christina, I just want to get your position perfectly clear.

    It’s perfectly reasonable for someone to prioritize his or her own needs and comfort in hogging the pole or spreading his legs (since this one is always always always a dude, I’m going to go ahead and be gender specific), and to assume that everybody whose needs and comfort he or she is deprioritizing is not hungry and/or dizzy and/or stressed and/or lonely and/or tired and/or worried and/or sick and/or disabled, because God knows those conditions are so unusual on the subway during rush hour.

    And it’s perfectly reasonable to expect me to assume that somebody doing that has an invisible disability that they don’t want to discuss, but it’s unreasonable to expect the person doing that to assume the same of the people whose needs he or she is deprioritizing, again, because that’s so unusual that he or she shouldn’t have to, but so common that I should.

    And it’s perfectly reasonable for the pole-hogger/leg-spreader to prioritize his/her own needs and comfort when he or she decides to take action, i.e. hogging the pole or spreading his legs, but it’s unreasonable for me to prioritize my own needs and comfort when deciding whether or not that person is an asshole.

    Got it. That makes perfect sense.

86. And just to extrapolate, it would be “terrible” to categorically judge the young white men who never, ever stood up and offered their seats to my friend who uses a cane and my friend who was visibly pregnant because one or two of them might have an invisible disability that apparently doesn’t afflict older white men, younger men of color, or any women in the same proportions. Probably the one or two times young white men did offer their seats after I glowered at them and then looked pointedly at my friend had to do with the medicinal power of my glower.

87. EG is at least as capable of defending herself as anyone else here, but I did want to add one other thing in response to Pretty Amiable’s comment about “someone say[ing] something to the effect of ‘You need to out yourself so I’m not grumpy for the rest of the morning because it’s too much to ask of me to give everyone the benefit of the doubt’.” This is an excerpt from a longer comment of mine from last night that’s still in moderation:

    I don’t think EG was telling anyone that they have to disclose their disability and shouldn’t try to “pass” as non-disabled; I’m sure she’s well aware of all the very good reasons people have for not wanting to be perceived as having a disability. Instead, I think that her point was that if you do have an invisible disability, and don’t say anything at all to anyone in this kind of situation (even if it’s just “sorry, I’m really not feeling well”), then it isn’t fair to criticize someone who assumes that you don’t have a good reason, and are just being an asshole like most others who engage in those types of behavior — especially if that someone doesn’t behave like an asshole towards you herself (regardless of what she’s thinking).

88. I wish it were so obvious who “really” needs accommodations and who is “just being an asshole.” I think most people have in their own head an idea of who the “deserving” people with disabilities are and they assume that everyone would draw the same distinctions, but in reality people have very different conceptions of who is deserving of accommodation and people with disabilities have to deal with having to prove themselves and having to hear about what different people’s conceptions are (x disease is fictitious, etc.)

    I don’t blame the assholes (as auditorydamage suggests one should) for people who are quick to judge me for moving too slowly and basically existing in a way that bothers them (i.e., looking healthy to them even while I am not healthy—how dare I blow people’s minds like that). I blame the people who are doing the judging. People should understand that just because someone looks healthy doesn’t mean they are.

    Some people are probably just assholes. Some people have invisible disabilities—including young white men. You can’t know which are which. When the normal behavior of people without disabilities gets a pass from you but the normal behavior of people with disabilities causes you to judge them as an asshole unless they do something extra for you to prove themselves worthy, I’d say you are ableist. There are many reasons that people with disabilities do not want to have to discuss their disability or ask for accommodation. Some people do not believe you, and keep pressing you for more and more details and arguing with you about why your condition is really just all in your head, and you should try harder. Some script your life as a tragedy and go on about how awful it must be to be you, which is not pleasant to hear.

    If, as a person with a disability, you are maximally concerned with the comfort of others in the way that some commenters have suggested that one should be in a public space like a subway, you probably isolate yourself as much as possible because your very existence makes people uncomfortable, and sometimes you are an imposition. Many people would say that this is unfortunate, but it’s just the way things are. Some will reply with the “my feminism will be intersectional or it will be bs” and others will say that intersectionality does not include the group under discussion, or that you are not actually a proper member of the group under discussion, or whatever.

    I don’t think this means that you have to suffer in silence while someone inconveniences you, but I think ideally people wouldn’t immediately assume that someone is an inconsiderate asshole either.

89. I don’t think EG was telling anyone that they have to disclose their disability and shouldn’t try to “pass” as non-disabled;

    Did you mean Kathryn here? I specifically meant Kathryn’s comment, where she said that it sounded like Marissa was trying to have it both ways.

    I don’t know. If the dominant narrative around me was “You’re taking up too much space,” or “You can’t have this thing everyone else takes for granted because it’s not cost effective” or “You can’t do this job because what if this elevator breaks, get a job that’s not in a tall building” or “Well, of course I won’t treat you like you personally are the worst person in the world as long as your prostrate yourself in front of me so that we can continue our dynamic where you need my permission to exist in your current form” – I’d get upset too. I am not okay with that. At all.

90. This is thread is why feminists can’t have nice things.

91. Uh, EG you’re completely ignoring that you have a privilege that the invisibly disabled don’t. You’re not on equal terms with the disabled just because you’ve decided you’re owed the opportunity to bitch and moan at every possible occasion.

92. I really loved public transit when I was pregnant. No one EVER offered me their seat, not even when I was 9 months along. Sadly, I was never the only pregnant standee on the bus or train. It was like we were being punished for leaving our homes in our “condition…” or maybe some people are just dicks. Whatever the case, it always made my blood boil whenever a backpack took precedence over a person, pregnant or not.

93. Several of the commenters here have acted like vultures. I shared my story of an invisible condition that sometimes causes mobility issues, even though my condition is indeed traumatizing to me, as I explained, in order to bring up the idea that invisible disability exists and maybe we shouldn’t make blanket statements about people leaning on poles as simply being assholes.

    BUT several commenters got severely angry with me for saying that I was hiding my sometimes-apparent condition. Disability discrimination exists. Pretty much every person I have disclosed my condition to has said eliminationist statements to me: for example, that I should kill myself and quit my Ph.D. program because apparently having a less than perfect body and being in public is not okay… I am lucky enough to be able to pass though because my condition only impacts my mobility at very limited times. If I am having a flare-up, I might be clinging to that pole a little mores than everyone around me. I think this is perfectly fair and I shouldn’t have to disclose to every person around me why it is exactly that I am taking up a few extra inches of the pole to balance myself.

    I’m afraid that if I disclose to everyone around me a) people won’t believe me because I _look_ able-bodied and young, and b) coming out completely if I am still lucky enough to pass will seriously impede my professional chances. Much like the equal pay act, laws against disability discrimination only go so far. And I am in academia, a field where already most people struggle to find ANY job, this is a more than dangerous chance to take if I don’t absolutely have to. Demanding that I not pass as if it is an inconvenience to others is a horrific sentiment to say the least!

    I cut and pasted my comments from another blog not because I was being manipulative, as others have claimed, but because the hateful remarks about me wanting to pass were highly triggering. My condition is traumatizing, as I mentioned, for a good number of reasons I don’t think I want to get into here, but suffice it to say the reasons involve multiple and repeated forms of verbal, emotional, and sexual abuse surrounding why I developed the condition in the first place and how people have reacted upon finding out about it.

    Commenters’ angry remarks triggered all of this trauma and I could not emotionally cope with piecing through every hateful remark and individually expressing my side; it was much easier to simply cut and paste what I had wrote elsewhere because it covered all of the main issues I wanted to address. I thought I had indicated that when I said the condition was traumatizing and I couldn’t emotionally handle responding to each remark.

    I don’t think I plan on ever telling a personal story here again in order to help broaden the scope of the discussion, that is if I ever come back here at all again. I wish main-stream feminism actually was intersectional.

    Also, I never said that the man-sit is okay and represents an invisible disability, which several commenters countered with this against my position. I’m pretty sure that health reasons that might cause a person to lean against a pole to balance oneself a little extra are FAR more common than any condition that might warrant the man-sit. But besides whether or not that is correct, the man-sit is offensive because there are histories of men taking over and colonizing even women’s physical and emotional spaces. Men don’t exactly man-sit other men. By the same token, there are histories and current mega-prevelant practices of able-bodied people acting against disabled people being in “their” spaces, in my personal experiences it is through eliminationist speech.

94. And right on time, here comes Improv Everywhere:

    Demand for beds got high, so Agent Cassels decided to rest on the bench. This is technically against the rules, punishable by fine. While taking up more than one seat is a violation, we couldn’t find any rules stating you couldn’t bring your own seats (or in our case beds) on the train with you.

    http://improveverywhere.com/2012/03/19/the-sleeper-car/

95. Oh my God, Marissa I came here to post the EXACT same thing. I LOOK like an able bodied young person.. but in fact I am severely disabled. Leaning against or “hugging” a pole is sometimes the only relief I can get on public transportation. Should disabled people who don’t “look” disabled have to disclose their very personal medical history to every stranger around them just so they’re “justified” in taking up a little more space than others?

    I posted on that site too and was honestly shocked when I came here and saw that in fact Feministe’s position is *not* opposite that of the original post but rather in support of it. Shame on you Feministe, you’re usually such a bastion for disabled / differently abled people’s rights. Why slack on this? Have some compassion.

96. I couldn’t agree more, Bee! I was seriously shocked that feministe would take this position, followed by my horror that commenters were saying hateful things like “suck it up” or that I “want to have it both ways” in terms of taking up a tad bit more space but still passing, which of course is 1) rarely ever a choice and 2) to the extent that it is a choice, passing is also a means of survival. What confounded my shock and horror further was that feministe continued to support this position even through these kinds of hurtful, ableist, and uninformed comments. Seriously, seconding what Bee said, shame on you feministe and have some compassion.

97. And in DC- for chrissake, MOVE TO THE MIDDLE OF THE CAR. Yes, you’re getting off at the next stop, but you don’t need to be near the door now and there are 100 people who are trying to get on. Sometimes at Metro Center it’s impossible to get on the train and you can see EMPTY SEATS through the window because of all the people who are afraid that if they’re not right next to the door they won’t be able to get off at god-damned Gallery Place.

    Surely you jest! During rush hour you’re LUCKY and I mean DAMNED lucky to even get on the red line let alone move around to find standing space without your butt or breasts being pressed up against some stranger. I’ve seen most people stand by the door but step off to let people off or on.

98. EG you’re completely ignoring that you have a privilege that the invisibly disabled don’t. You’re not on equal terms with the disabled just because you’ve decided you’re owed the opportunity to bitch and moan at every possible occasion.

    How so? First of all, bitching and moaning and other forms of complaining are my God-given right and my native tongue as a New Yorker, perhaps trumped only by the right to loathe tourists.

    Second of all, what I’m being told is that people with invisible disabilities have the right to not be judged for hogging the pole. And that’s great, except that since the disabilities in question are, well, invisible, that means that somehow judging the vast majority of people who hog the pole, who do so not because they’re disabled but because they’re being selfish jerks, is “terrible.” Given that the very worst thing that can happen from my judgment is that the pole-hogger will hear me say “Excuse me. Please move so I can hold on” in an exasperated tone, I fail to see how the very occasional pole-hogger who doesn’t deserve it is going to suffer much. Talking to people who are exasperated with you is one of the risks you run when you go out in public, particularly on mass transit, particularly during rush hour.

    Why is it so awful of me to make this categorical assumption but not so awful of the pole-hogger to assume that some other person who needs the pole might need it because of a similar invisible disability? How precisely does my privilege figure into that question?

    Third of all, I was then told that I just didn’t understand because so many pole-huggers were tired, stressed, lonely, hungry, sick, dizzy, etc.–again, as if these were not common conditions. Those aren’t invisible disabilities. Those are things that people experience all the time, and if that is what we’re talking about, then indeed, we are precisely on the same level. (My back hurts. I’m having a depressive episode. I have a major deadline next week and I’m stressed. I’ve been teaching for 7 hours straight and haven’t eaten since a cup of yogurt at breakfast.) Everybody feels like shit sometimes.

99. I would add, as a follow-up to a post in mod, nobody has said you have to disclose anything. You only have to disclose if you’re requesting the seats set aside for disabled people. You can respond to my exasperated request by saying “Go to hell,” or “I’m sorry, I just can’t,” or, as Donna noted, “I’m sorry, I’m not feeling well at all,” or whatever. It’s not like I’m going to body-check you and take the pole, or call the Subway Etiquette police or something. You don’t have to justify jack shit in order to continue leaning on the pole. You just don’t get the privilege of me thinking you’re a nice person–big deal. I don’t think most people are nice. So what? There are lots of people I see on the street or the subway whom I don’t think well of. It doesn’t seem to harm any of them, unless I have powers that I have as yet no knowledge of.

    Men don’t exactly man-sit other men.

    Sure, they do. They don’t close their legs to let other men sit down, and taking up space is a way of asserting status over other men, as well.

    Demanding that I not pass as if it is an inconvenience to others is a horrific sentiment to say the least!

    Again, nobody is demanding that you not pass. If you pass, I might look at you and think “asshole.” Big deal–some stranger on the subway thinks you’re an asshole and bitches about it to her friends later on. I might be annoyed and express that annoyance in my tone of voice. This happens all the time, and nobody’s life-chances are ruined by it (not if I’m sitting down, though; then I’ll just roll my eyes).

100. I’m back from vacation and clarify, mainly because I don’t like the way my position in this thread is being twisted.

     No, EG, I don’t think that you should assume that everybody on the metro has an invisible disability. I already explained above that where it is clear that the commuter is acting out of entitlement annoyance is reasonable. For example there is no excuse that I can think of for man-sitting, playing loud music or taking up a seat with your handbag in a crowded car. When this happens however the reason is usually absent-mindedness and I generally find that a polite request is all it takes for most people to free up space and apologise. You can fume internally however if you prefer.

     Having said all this, there are other situations where disability, whether temporary or permanent, necessitates taking up more space than others. In these cases there’s nothing much the other person can do about it and it’s unreasonable to demand that they try – personally I think that this is important to keep in mind when e.g. you see somebody supporting themselves heavily on the pole. Of course, if you’d rather bitch about it, be my guest, but just as you reserve the right to complain about people hugging the pole on the metro, I reserve the right to complain about people who make communal existence in busy cities difficult by failing to recognise that there are worse problems than being stressed while commuting.

     For the record I am also not ok with young white men not offering their seat to visibly pregnant people (although deciding who is eligible for relinquishing their seat and who is not by looking at them doesn’t necessarily seem like the best test) and I really don’t appreciate you putting words in my mouth in this way. You are avoiding the very pertinent remarks made on this thread – particularly by people other than me – and as to the relevance of disability and instead arguing against straw men you set up all by yourself.

     Also, when you claim that when *you* are sick on the subway, *you* always manage to put other people first and *you* never take up more than your fair share of space presumably because *you*’d rather collapse in a dead faint on the floor than cause others the slightest inconvenience, I am going to be ever so slightly dubious – either you have never actually been truly unwell on the metro or you have a very faulty memory.

101. If, as a person with a disability, you are maximally concerned with the comfort of others in the way that some commenters have suggested that one should be in a public space like a subway, you probably isolate yourself as much as possible because your very existence makes people uncomfortable, and sometimes you are an imposition.

     I’m concerned with the comfort of others because I recognize that everyone has to share public space, and that my needs may conflict with those of others on a temporary basis; therefore, I take care not to unnecessarily cause anyone else inconvenience or suffering, and hope others show the same courtesy to me. It’s not strictly related to my disability.

     If there is much available volume and seating in a vehicle, the potential conflicts mentioned throughout this comment thread tend not to take place; I’m not bothered by someone stretching out a bit or leaving a bag on a seat when plenty of other seats and room to stand is available. Now, if one takes place during a busy period, it is perfectly appropriate to request that space be made available by a person taking up what appears to be unnecessary volume with themselves or their belongings. That is not ableist, merely a request based upon imperfect information – namely, not knowing why someone is taking up apparently extra space. Continuing to negatively judge a PWD for occupying volume after a reason has been given, or assuming a person is lying about an impairment merely because it isn’t visible, is ableist. I can’t expect someone to know I can’t see very well if I haven’t said anything, but I damn sure expect that person to understand and wait a moment if I’m blocking a sign that I’m trying to read after I explain my circumstances (I’ll even ask them to read it for me if I’m up shit creek trying to squint at it).

     I understand that people shouldn’t make a negative assumption about other individuals taking up what appears to be extra space or causing inconvenience to others on transit, but I recognize that they often do, and my best guess is that previous encounters with thoughtless nonimpaired individuals is why, which creates the potential for future encounters between PWD and the prejudging subjects unnecessarily hostile. There are also likely to be people who simply negatively judge anyone who uses what they perceive as undeserved space; this is ignorance, and it can be corrected by communication.

     Luckily, I’ve never witnessed a situation where someone who was capable of doing so refused to give up space when requested.

102. Every time I see a jerk with their backpack next to them or something I can’t wait in till that person walks in the train/bus that doesn’t care and tells them to move their shit. It’s lovely being from Chicago.

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