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Ideological zealots: Usually bad news.

Jill

See, e.g.:

The latest battleground in Israel’s struggle over religious extremism covers little more than a square mile of this Jewish city situated between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, and it has the unexpected public face of a blond, bespectacled second-grade girl.

She is Naama Margolese, 8, the daughter of American immigrants who are observant modern Orthodox Jews. An Israeli weekend television program told the story of how Naama had become terrified of walking to her elementary school here after ultra-Orthodox men spit on her, insulted her and called her a prostitute because her modest dress did not adhere exactly to their more rigorous dress code.

The country was outraged. Naama’s picture has appeared on the front pages of all the major Israeli newspapers. While Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu insisted Sunday that “Israel is a democratic, Western, liberal state” and pledged that “the public sphere in Israel will be open and safe for all,” there have been days of confrontation at focal points of friction here.

Ultra-Orthodox men and boys from the most stringent sects have hurled rocks and eggs at the police and journalists, shouting “Nazis” at the security forces and assailing female reporters with epithets like “shikse,” a derogatory Yiddish term for a non-Jewish woman or girl, and “whore.” Jews of varying degrees of orthodoxy and secularity headed to Beit Shemesh on Tuesday evening to join local residents in a protest numbering in the thousands against religious violence and fanaticism.

For many Israelis, this is not a fight over one little girl’s walk to school. It is a struggle that could shape the future character and soul of the country, against ultra-Orthodox zealots who have been increasingly encroaching on the public sphere with their strict interpretation of modesty rules, enforcing gender segregation and the exclusion of women.

The battle has broadened and grown increasingly visible in recent weeks and months. Orthodox male soldiers walked out of a ceremony where female soldiers were singing, adhering to what they consider to be a religious prohibition against hearing a woman’s voice; women have been challenging the seating arrangements on strictly “kosher” buses serving ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods and some inter-city routes, where female passengers are expected to sit at the back.

It’s worth noting, of course, that it was other religious groups in Israel who pushed back on the treatment of Naama, so this isn’t a “all religious people are bad” thing. It is a “people who think that use of public space should be determined by their exclusionary religious beliefs are jerks” thing. Because you know, if you can’t stand seeing women and girls out in public, perhaps the solution is for you to avoid going out in public.

59 thoughts on Ideological zealots: Usually bad news.

  1. I don’t understand these extremists – it’s simple enough – they are perfectly free to believe whatever they want, and practice it within the context of other believers. They do NOT have the right to limit other people by imposing their religious beliefs on them.

  2. There’s a religious prohibition against hearing a woman’s voice? Wow. Now that’s the ultimate silencing tactic: Shut up, woman. That’s what God wants!

  3. There’s a religious prohibition against hearing a woman’s voice? Wow. Now that’s the ultimate silencing tactic: Shut up, woman. That’s what God wants!

    The prohibition isn’t on a woman speaking, just singing. Well, “prohibition,” since it’s pretty widely disputed what, exactly, is prohibited by that Talmudic passage, with plenty of accepted interpretations other than “Men can never listen to a woman singing,” and historically, only some Jewish communities have interpreted it that way.

  4. @Ruchama — as you probably know better than I, the term for the prohibition is “kol isha,” or “woman’s voice.” My Hebrew isn’t great but I think “kol” connotes more of a singing voice than a speaking voice. Either way, as worded the prohibition does silence women.

  6. I’m reading a book right now that discusses the Bible and its role in form Fundamentalist thought. As it turns out, there really is no one correct and inerrant way to interpret the text. The Bible is far too dense, too nuanced, too complicated to render one and only one way of perceiving it.

    Orthodox Jews would not, of course, refer to their Holy Text as the Old Testament. They probably interpret it much differently, speaking from a cultural perspective, and they read it in a very different context. However, they still take a fundamentalist interpretation of their own and, in this situation, use it violently. In some ways, they are like the Amish in the United States, which is to say isolationist and separate from the rest of society.

    Regardless of religious preference, I still see this as an severe infringement upon the rights of others.

  8. Apparently no one told Miriam when she sang in front of Moses praise to the Lord for the destruction of Pharoah’s armies. Or did they just skip that part?

  9. The reason they are infringing upon the rights of others is because they consider the public sphere to belong to them. It may belong in part to each particular group, but since the public sphere is necessarily indivisible, it has to belong to everyone including people with diametrically opposed beliefs. We’re seeing this everywhere, increasingly, all over the world.

    Wasn’t there a similar issue with publicly-funded buses run by the Orthodox, where women were told to go to the back even though the money came from all taxpayers in the area? I don’t remember seeing how it was resolves, but it certainly should have been.

  11. Ugh, the increasing power of the Charedi population in Israel is pretty awful and has become a point of conflict between Charedi and non-Charedi Israelis and Jews pretty much over the whole world. Basically, as progressive religious movements are becoming stronger, particularly regarding a more egalitarian Judaism, Charedi groups are grasping for power where they can and becoming more and more restrictive towards woman and other “undesirables”. It’s disgusting.

    I read a really interesting interview with Rabbi Hartman the other day (on ynet, of all places). I certainly don’t agree with everything Rabbi Hartman has to say, but here’s to moderate voices being heard through all the absurdity. His daughter, Dr. Tova Hartman, is also mentioned in the article. She’s has some pretty neat things to say about merging feminism and Judaism. I heard her talk at the Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance meeting a few years ago and was pretty blown away.

  12. Comrade Kevin, I just wanted to point out that — very fortunately — not all Orthodox Jews feel or act in this repulsive way. I know a number who are as horrified as I am by this kind of thing. Unfortunately, way too many fit your description.

  13. I think it’s important to acknowledge that a large part of the whole “Israel is a democratic, Western, liberal state” message is because there’s a silent parenthesized bit after – “unlike our enemies”. Characterizing themselves this way is politically strategic for their relationship with the US and other Western nation-states. Look at how they’ve talked up their acceptance of lesbians and gays as part of PR measures to cast Palestinians as backward, savage and intolerant. They want to be seen as an oasis of human rights and progress in the Middle East. In other words: the unambiguous “good guy”. Which, of course, necessitates a bad guy.

    Since these divisions seem to be widening in many countries – not just Israel – I mean, look at the surge of Tea Party-ers, anti-immigration sentiment and KKK-affiliated action in the USA lately, versus increasing restlessness among the “99%” – I’m curious which uprising will prevail.

    Curious isn’t actually the right word for how I feel about it, but Feministe is not where I want to stake any feelings.

  14. I just want to note that attacking a child who is on her way to a place of learning and study contradicts every single thing that all of my grandparents and both my parents taught me was most important about my Jewish heritage, culture, and the values we hold dear.

    And the Orthodox I know, friends and students, are or would be horrified by this. These are not Jewish values as they were passed on to me; my grandparents, parents, aunts, and uncles would be disgusted, and they would be almost as disgusted at the use of the epithet “Nazi” to insult police officers protecting the rights of little girls and women to walk down the street unmolested.

  15. I think it’s important to acknowledge that a large part of the whole “Israel is a democratic, Western, liberal state” message is because there’s a silent parenthesized bit after – “unlike our enemies”. Characterizing themselves this way is politically strategic for their relationship with the US and other Western nation-states. Look at how they’ve talked up their acceptance of lesbians and gays as part of PR measures to cast Palestinians as backward, savage and intolerant. They want to be seen as an oasis of human rights and progress in the Middle East. In other words: the unambiguous “good guy”. Which, of course, necessitates a bad guy.

    If everyone said that, we’d have nothing to complain about it.

  16. Characterizing themselves this way is politically strategic for their relationship with the US and other Western nation-states. Look at how they’ve talked up their acceptance of lesbians and gays as part of PR measures to cast Palestinians as backward, savage and intolerant. They want to be seen as an oasis of human rights and progress in the Middle East. In other words: the unambiguous “good guy”. Which, of course, necessitates a bad guy.

    Oh, and I have no problem with criticizing Israel or Israeli foreign policy, but can we do so without pulling out any of the old Anti-Semitic Jews-are-crafty tropes?

  17. Oh, and I have no problem with criticizing Israel or Israeli foreign policy, but can we do so without pulling out any of the old Anti-Semitic Jews-are-crafty tropes?

    I’m fundamentally not seeing where you’re seeing this trope. “Politically strategic” pretty much describes the way every single country triangulates its position and spins its propaganda, and Israel does have a vested interest in positioning itself that way; it may also be comparatively true. But in my opinion, any resemblance between a country’s spin and propaganda and its actual situation are completely coincidental. Israel doesn’t seem to be being presented as any craftier than any other state that is not a superpower or imperial center.

  18. I’m fundamentally not seeing where you’re seeing this trope. “Politically strategic” pretty much describes the way every single country triangulates its position and spins its propaganda, and Israel does have a vested interest in positioning itself that way; it may also be comparatively true. But in my opinion, any resemblance between a country’s spin and propaganda and its actual situation are completely coincidental. Israel doesn’t seem to be being presented as any craftier than any other state that is not a superpower or imperial center.

    Yes, but saurus’ claim is that they are characterizing themselves as something they are not (“they want to be seen as an oasis of human rights and progress in the Middle East”) in order to demonize Palestinians (“cast Palestinians as backward, savage and intolerant”). Far different than just spinning your actual position.

  19. You think? We’ll just have to disagree, then. Israel does have a lot to gain by demonizing Palestinians and being the “good one” in the Middle East. All countries characterize themselves as something they are not; the US is not the freest country in the world and they do not hate us because of our freedom; the USSR was not a classless workers’ state; eventually, thank goodness, the sun did set on the British Empire. All nationalist propaganda works like this–every nation positions itself as the good guy and its enemies as evil. All that varies is which qualities are labeled good and which evil.

  20. All countries characterize themselves as something they are not

    Then why single out Israel for this criticism?

  21. Oh, and I have no problem with criticizing Israel or Israeli foreign policy, but can we do so without pulling out any of the old Anti-Semitic Jews-are-crafty tropes?

    Nobody said “Jews are crafty.” Or anything like it. Myself included. I don’t know where you’re getting that from. And I resent the suggestion that I’m being anti-Semitic, for many reasons, one of which being that I’m a Jew.

    In any case, I am talking about the Israeli state and its leaders, not Jewish people. Just because they are overlapping categories doesn’t mean they’re the same thing. For one thing, Jewish people are all over the world and of diverse political persuasions, so saying that the Israeli government is “crafty” can’t possibly be a statement on all Jews, because not all Jews are even Israeli, let alone involved with its government. If I said the government was “crafty” because of it being Jewish-led, then you might have a point. But I made no such implication.

  22. If I said the government was “crafty” because of it being Jewish-led, then you might have a point. But I made no such implication.

    I never claimed that you ‘said’ that. But I felt that it was implied. I could be wrong, it’s happened before.

  23. Then why single out Israel for this criticism?

    …because this post is about Israel, and the way internal divisions among Ultra-Orthodox and, well, everybody else are jeopardizing the image of itself that Israel would like to hold up to the world as well its own people? So it would be completely irrelevant to discuss the propaganda of other countries?

  24. Nobby, I don’t see it either. And I’m as sensitive to anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic tropes (express or implied) as anyone. The reason Israel was “singled out” here is that the events in question took place in Israel. It didn’t come out of nowhere, and this wasn’t by any means an “Israel is the most evil country in the world” kind of assertion. In fact, it was judging Israel by the same standards any country is judged, which is what Israel’s supporters should want.

  25. Count me as someone who didn’t see anti-Semitic tropes in saurus’ comment, though I understand being hyper-aware of possible anti-Semitism at Feministe since often threads like these have had a number of unchecked anti-Semitic comments.

  26. OK, clearly it’s just me. Just because we’re feminsts/women/Jews, doesn’t mean we all have to agree.

  27. This makes me so sad. For the little girl, of course, as well as for women and Israeli society, but I feel a particular selfish ache. As an American secular Jew who often wishes for a bit of a stronger connection to my roots (or whatever better term anyone wants to come up with), it really saddens me to think the Israel I would want to get to know might disappear too fast for me to get a chance.

    All that aside, though, can we just focus on (allegedly) grown men spitting on a little girl? What the actual fuck?

  28. All that aside, though, can we just focus on (allegedly) grown men spitting on a little girl? What the actual fuck?

    Can I just say that if this had happened to me, my father would have accompanied me to school the next day, and he would have brought a gun with him.

    I am not exaggerating. I think he would still do that if men were doing that to me on my way to work. And I’m not convinced that it would be a bad idea: you think you’re such tough, righteous men, huh, beating up on a little girl? How tough are you when instead of a weeping child, you’re dealing with a pissed-off armed man?

    Only fucking cowards attack children. Evil cowards.

  29. I’m in Tel Aviv right now, and people are really pissed at how the small minority of uber Orthodox Jews have taken a strangle hold of official policy. Among other things Orthodox Jews don’t have to serve in the IDF like everyone else, and get paid a wage by the government to “pray for the safety of the state of Israel”. Jews (strictly defined by whether your mother was Jewish) can’t legally marry non-Jews.

    It’s totally fucked up. And the worst part is that most Israeli’s hate these policies! But the Shas party formed a coalition with Likud, getting their religious agenda upheld in exchange for supporting Likud’s expansionist policies, which are also disliked by the majority of Israelis. The two party system in the US has it’s problems but so do parliamentary systems where clever coalition building can subvert the will of the people.

  30. Can I just say that if this had happened to me, my father would have accompanied me to school the next day, and he would have brought a gun with him.

    Earlier in the school year, there were several news reports of the fathers of the girls walking them to school and getting into physical fights with some of the protesters.

    The reasoning that these men are giving for why they’re protesting the school is that the girls are dressed immodestly and thus present a sexual temptation, which they don’t want in their neighborhood. Aside from the fact that the girls going to this school are Orthodox and are all wearing calf-length skirts and at least 3/4-length sleeves (the protestors want full-length sleeves and dark tights under ankle-length skirts), the oldest girls there are 12. I’ve seen a few news reports where one of the protesters was explaining the “sexual temptation” reasoning to a reporter, and the reporter asked something like, “You’re sexually tempted by an eight-year-old?” and the protester replied, “Yes.” That is just so screwed up.

    Another thing that some of the parents have been doing is bringing cameras to the protests, taking photos of the protestors, and putting posters of them around the neighborhood with the caption “Pedophile.”

  31. Orthodox Judiasm like any fundmentalist form of religion is fucking scary. This story among others proves exactly that.

  32. Let’s talk about the fact that grown men are implying that little girls are a source of sexual temptation, that only this Orthodox sect appears to have the problem, and that they stone the objects of their desire, instead of developing self-control. 30-day psych observation, anyone?
    I’m really, really sick and tired of religions of Middle-Eastern origin which discriminate against half the human race and then hide behind the flag of religious liberty. Freedom is a two-way street and if they want it, they should be earning it by allowing others liberty. If they can’t do this, revoke their charters, give media and law their way, and sue the bastards out of existence. This goes for Orthodox Misogyny, Fred Phelps’ nutcult, and anything which throws stones or bombs.

  33. Orthodox Judiasm like any fundmentalist form of religion is fucking scary. This story among others proves exactly that.

    I think fundamentalism, in essence, is prioritizing ideas/principles over actual lives to an extreme degree. Non-religious or mildly-religious people can be fundamentalists too. It just means their ideas/principles aren’t solely or predominantly sourced from religious dogma or religious motivations.

  34. 30-day psych observation, anyone? […] Fred Phelps’ nutcult

    It’s problematic to conflate psychiatric disability with acting like a dick. Both because it is a shitty thing to do to people with psychiatric disabilities, and because it hijacks any possible comprehension of why people act like dicks (hint: it’s not because they are disabled).

    I’m really, really sick and tired of religions of Middle-Eastern origin which discriminate against half the human race and then hide behind the flag of religious liberty. Freedom is a two-way street and if they want it, they should be earning it by allowing others liberty. If they can’t do this, revoke their charters, give media and law their way, and sue the bastards out of existence.

    Oh boy. Why did you specify “of Middle-Eastern origin”? Are you not sick of religions/people who discriminate against women if they’re non-Middle-Eastern? Because as it stands, that sentence comes off rather racist and Western-centric. Also, who do you think should “revoke their charters, give media and law their way, and sue the bastards out of existence”? And what do you mean by “give media and law their way”?

  35. Another thing that some of the parents have been doing is bringing cameras to the protests, taking photos of the protestors, and putting posters of them around the neighborhood with the caption “Pedophile.”

    Good. There is something hideously fucked up about grown ass adults spitting on an 8-year-old girl and calling her a whore. If you’re sexually tempted by an 8-year-old, you should keep YOUR ass inside and segregate YOURSELF.

    I think fundamentalism, in essence, is prioritizing ideas/principles over actual lives to an extreme degree. Non-religious or mildly-religious people can be fundamentalists too. It just means their ideas/principles aren’t solely or predominantly sourced from religious dogma or religious motivations.

    QFT.

  36. Saurus: I think Angie was specifically singling out ‘religions of Middle Eastern origin’ because they have the most followers world-wide. Before you jump down her throat, please remember that Christianity also originated in the Mid-east. Yes, it’s now a Western religion, but it didn’t start that way!

  37. Oh boy. Why did you specify “of Middle-Eastern origin”? Are you not sick of religions/people who discriminate against women if they’re non-Middle-Eastern? Because as it stands, that sentence comes off rather racist and Western-centric.

    How is this ‘Western-centric’? All the major Western religions are of Middle-Eastern origin.

  38. It’s worth noting that in Beit Shemesh, the victims in the news are Orthodox Jews. The perpetrators are Hareidim (“Ultra-orthodox”). Many Orthodox people, although not enough, are now discussing how to make it clear that Hareidim are heretics for this kind of behaviour. While almost everyone takes for granted that the more misogynistic, more screwed-up streams of religion must also be more “authentic,” hareidiut is heresy in just so many more ways. I remember recently talking arguing one hareidi about a matter of Jewish law (can you do hanukah lighting in someone else’s store with a berakhah). He offered his opinion that it was fine, I said “That’s not what it says in the Shulhan Arukh,” and he responded, “Who cares?”

    I have gotten MANY responses of “who cares?” from Hareidim over the years when pointing out that their ways have no basis in Jewish oral tradition or text, even when it’s not a “political” issue. They grew up in echo chambers where the only way to gain social credibility was to be as obsessed with covering clothing and certain behavioural styles/fashions as possible. They must uphold that status at any cost. I know a store owner who said that if he sold a certain copy of the Jewish Bible according to a MORE accurate manuscript, hareidi thugs would come to his store and beat him up. He said it had happened before.

    Hopefully this helps illustrate that Hareidim are a Jewish problem (in that we are responsible for distancing ourselves from their ways and for condemning them), but they are not a traditional Jewish problem.

    Oh, and I disagree that they can do whatever they want in private. Abusing women in your own home isn’t any better.

  39. How is this ‘Western-centric’? All the major Western religions are of Middle-Eastern origin.

    Because (for example) the intersection of American patriotism, colonialism, racism and Christianity has been devastating towards women, particularly women of color, and could hardly be blamed on or connected to Middle-Eastern origins from the mid-1st century. A lot of recent religious fundamentalist notions and manifestations coming out of Western countries were created by those Western countries, not drawn from the ancient Middle East. For example, Islamophobia – at the scale and in the flavor that we see it today – is a relatively recent American cultural creation fueled by American mainstream Christianity, not the ancient Middle-East.

    The fact that a drasticaily different form of the religion originated in the Middle East seems entirely irrelevant to me, and strikes me as implying there’s “something wrong” with what comes out of the Middle East, not to mention glazing over the ways in which people from each country – not just ones from the Middle East – can put their own sexist spin on their faith. That’s why I asked the commenter to elaborate on why they specified “of Middle Eastern origin” – I’d like to know what they were getting at exactly.

    It’s also worth noting that some religious folks in the Middle East – or Jewish, Christian and Muslim feminists in general – are at the cutting-edge of radical, transformative feminist or liberatory work – not “despite” their religion but because of it, and I think it’s important to not erase these people or treat all the members of a faith as homogenous.

  40. I don’t know that I would have called your comment “Western-centric” but it doesn’t really make any sense to use “Middle Eastern origin” or “Abrahamic” (another favorite term on here) as a modifier for religion here. Do you think Hinduism doesn’t discriminate against women? Do you think all pagan traditions are totally egalitarian? Why aren’t you sick of any system of thought that discriminates against half of humanity? Why only religions of Middle Eastern origin?

    While on the one hand, I don’t think you can separate the views expressed by the haredi protestors from their approach to religion, the people they are abusing are from the same faith of Middle Eastern origin and they don’t have these views. It’s just facile to wave your fist at “religions of Middle Eastern origin.”

  41. ^ Oh, up there when I say Islamophobia, I am referring to Islamophobia in the US. I’m not saying that American mainstream Christianity created all the Islamophobia in the world, by any means!

  42. Why aren’t you sick of any system of thought that discriminates against half of humanity?

    Maybe because she hasn’t experienced them. If she had said she was ‘sickened by’ only certain religions that would be different but ‘sick of’ implies that you hear about their oppression on a regular basis.

  43. Though, I do agree with saurus in this case, that you must include all forms of American Christianity as Middle Eastern in origin.

  44. Orthodox Judiasm like any fundmentalist form of religion is fucking scary. This story among others proves exactly that.

    As Yonah pointed out, everybody in this story is Orthodox. The little girls who are walking through this every day because they know that they have the right to go to school dressed they way they dress, and the parents who are supporting them and fighting against the protesters, and most of the community that’s supporting the girls and their families, are all Orthodox.

  45. Are the delicate sensibilities of Israelis quite so outraged when the targets of ultra-Orthodox violence are Palestinians or other Arabs?

  46. Oh, look. We’ve got a dude on the thread looking to set us ladies straight on the really important issues.

    It doesn’t take “delicate sensibilities” to be upset about religiously-justified attacks on little girls, Tim, so take that phrasing and–oh, wait, I won’t say that. I might offend your delicate sensibilities. If the mods would like to open up a thread on Israeli-Palestinian relations and their effects on women’s lives, that would indeed be a topic of discussion. But trying to hijack this thread in order to talk about it is bullshit. Just like hijacking a thread on, oh, US bombings of abortion clinics to say “are the delicate sensibilities of Americans quite so outraged when the targets of right-wing violence are Chicano workers?” That is not this topic.

  48. @EG: OK, I will have to cop to being a “dude,” I guess, but I am not trying to “set us ladies” anything, let alone “straight,” unless you already are — wouldn’t try to turn anyone straight, or turn them gay either. I didn’t know it was just ladies on here anyway.

    Above, you say “… because this post is about Israel, and the way internal divisions among Ultra-Orthodox and, well, everybody else are jeopardizing the image of itself that Israel would like to hold up to the world as well its own people?

    Given the context and the situation in the ME, I’m not sure how you can have a meaningful conversation about just Israel and its image to the world without bringing in, well … other things. But if those are the rules of this thread, then my comment was wrong.

    So, fair enough, not only my phrasing but the content of my comment was snarky and a cheap shot and I’m sorry. I could say it wasn’t what I meant, but in that case I should have either made it longer to try and get a different meaning across or not posted at all. There’s no delete function on here, but consider it withdrawn with my apologies.

  49. @Unree: No, I read this blog every day, quite purposely and sometimes comment. So it is not by mistake in the sense of accident that I read the blog but maybe commenting is a mistake in the sense of something I should not do.

    Please see above. I am sorry for the phrasing and content of my first comment on this thread.

  50. It’s worth noting that in Beit Shemesh, the victims in the news are Orthodox Jews. The perpetrators are Hareidim (“Ultra-orthodox”). Many Orthodox people, although not enough, are now discussing how to make it clear that Hareidim are heretics for this kind of behaviour. While almost everyone takes for granted that the more misogynistic, more screwed-up streams of religion must also be more “authentic,” hareidiut is heresy in just so many more ways. I remember recently talking arguing one hareidi about a matter of Jewish law (can you do hanukah lighting in someone else’s store with a berakhah). He offered his opinion that it was fine, I said “That’s not what it says in the Shulhan Arukh,” and he responded, “Who cares?”

    Thanks for this. I’m no expert on Judaism, and I’m well aware that traditional Orthodox Judaism (like just about every traditional religion, in the Middle East or elsewhere!) has a plentiful share of issues with misogyny. But I’ve read a great deal about Jewish history, and all of this is completely foreign to everything I have ever read about how Jewish men are supposed to treat people (including but not limited to other Jews, and including women and children), and are supposed to debate and discuss this sort of issue rationally and with words, not with violence. After all, at a time when domestic violence against women was an accepted part of life in medieval Europe, the rabbis in their responsa uniformly and severely condemned it. As my supposed ancestor (through my Weil family), R. Meir of Rothenburg (the Maharam) wrote in the 13th century:

    And he who beats his wife, I have received a tradition that one is to be stricter with him than with one who beats his fellow, because one is not obligated to respect his fellow, but one is obligated to respect his wife. . . . For it is the way of the Gentiles to behave thus [wife-beating], but Heaven forfend that any Jew should do so. And one who beats his wife is to be excommunicated and banned and beaten . . . and even to cut off his hand if he is habituated to do so.

    *

    It wouldn’t make me sad if equivalent steps were taken against the Haredi who abuse little girls this way.

    *An abused wife was also generally entitled to a divorce, and to be repaid her ketubah money. (People always seem to assume that divorce was unknown in the medieval world, but it was actually fairly common among Jews, both in Europe and elsewhere in the Mediterranean including Egypt, as the Genizah documents show.)

  51. You’re on a feminist board, Tim. Maybe you wandered here by mistake?

    WTF is this about? Did Tim say something that wasn’t feminist enough for you? Is it somehow antifeminist to point out that Israelis seem much more sensitive to the misbehaviors of the ultraothodox when those misbehaviors are directed at Jews?

    Unree, painting Tim as out of place here because he is a man is bullshit and a cheap shot.

  52. So, fair enough, not only my phrasing but the content of my comment was snarky and a cheap shot and I’m sorry. I could say it wasn’t what I meant, but in that case I should have either made it longer to try and get a different meaning across or not posted at all. There’s no delete function on here, but consider it withdrawn with my apologies.

    Thanks, Tim. I appreciate it. To me, the comment smacked of “attacks on women/girls by men of their own culture (misogyny) aren’t (isn’t) as important as attacks on ethnic others.” I know I am not the only one who has heard that message before in various guises, and it is good to know that it was not what you intended to convey.

  53. DonnaL, love the quote.

    I must say that as silly as the phrase is, I personally don’t mind people condemning “Middle Eastern religions” or anything generally about the Wacky ‘n’ Dangerous Middle East(TM). It always gives me a great surge of solidarity with our Arab neighbours. Much common ground can be found in perceptions of being unbalanced, exotic religious nuts, invariably unjustly rich from oil or American aid money despite the fact that the average Middle Eastern person, Jew or Arab, is way poorer than the North American. I would like to have a giant regional block party with our awesome techno music at which edgy T-shirts are handed out emblazoned with the slogan “Religion of Middle-Eastern Origin.”

  55. Comrade Kevin:

    The Bible is far too dense, too nuanced, too complicated self-contradictory to render one and only one way of perceiving it trust it as having anything worthwhile to say about morality.

    FTFY. And that’s not even factoring in all the genocidal, misogynist, racist, and homophobic crap in the wholly babble.

  56. @Ruchama, I think you forgot to tell JetGirl about the part in the Mishna where men are told they should “minimize talking to women as much as possible”, because “women are light headed”.

  57. World Religions classes and ecumenical groups consistently refer to “the three major religions”, all of Middle Eastern origin. Yes, Hinduism is misogynist, and having a Goddess or several does nothing to change that murderous fact. I’ve experienced Pagan misogyny, color prejudiced, and often racist. My statement was made as a reference to other violence in the Middle East.,
    The statement equating Orthodox dickheadedness with mental illness was not meant to disparage the mentally ill. I do believe that dickheadedness can be defined as cognitive disorder or personality disorder, and the sexualization of small children for any reason is definitely diseased and merits clinical observation. So many Catholic pedos haved covered their asses with a Bible that it would be no surprise if Orthonuts took up the practice.

  58. “Minister Benjamin Netanyahu insisted Sunday that “Israel is a democratic, Western, liberal state” and pledged that “the public sphere in Israel will be open and safe for all”

    Obviously, spitting on an 8 year old is so fucked up that I don’t think I have to elaborate further on how fucked up it is. But what also pisses me off when people on both the right (like Netanyahu above) and the left (see basically every Gideon Levy editorial ever) blame the breakdown of Israel as a “democratic, liberal, Western state” on the ultra-Orthodox. I think the ultra-Orthodox serve as a convenient scapegoat for a lot of people who don’t want to undertake the difficult task of thinking about how anti-democratic values are embedded within Zionism itself, even “good, progressive” Zionism. I take an extremely sceptical view of all sorts of hand-wringing over how the ultra-Orthodox are destroying Israel’s democratic values, because many of those same hand-wringers breathe a secret sigh of relief that the ultra-Orthodox high birthrate is forestalling the day that Palestinians become a demographic majority in the Jewish state.

  59. I don’t think any ethno nationalist movements are automatically democratic to begin with; there can be people in the movement who believe in practicing democracy but that doesn’t nesscarily make them the majority.

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