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Eight Red Flags I Learned from Online Dating

Jill

I have an article in GOOD today about online dating red flags, and how the internet evens the gender playing field. Check it out. And yes, someone on Twitter already sent me this article in response.

The one red flag that I didn’t give much time to but that I keep seeing over and over and over again are the dudes who won’t date women their own age, but will date women who are 10 or 15 years younger than they are. It doesn’t really impact me yet — I’m usually right in the middle of their preferred age range — but if a guy is 36 and would date a 20-something but won’t date a woman who’s 35? Nope!

Now it’s one thing to meet someone at a party or through friends, hit it off, and then realize that there’s a large age difference. It’s another to actually think through who you want to date, and decide that even though you’re 35, you would date a 22-year-old but not a woman your own age. It’s not that 22-year-olds and 35-year-olds can never have good, egalitarian relationships; it’s that a dude who lists his upper age limit as two or three years younger than himself is probably not looking for an equal partner.

348 thoughts on Eight Red Flags I Learned from Online Dating

  1. I agreed with most of that article.. as far as the spelling goes.. I’m not sure if it’s a GOOD reason to bypass someone, because learning disabilities and such (although you can sometimes tell who is being lazy and who genuinely has trouble with spelling) but it’s definitely a reason I’ve bypassed some people’s profiles.

    I tend to gravitate towards the guys who talk about themselves in their profiles rather than the laundry-list of what they’re looking for. And friggin’ shirtless pics, don’t get me started. I also veer away from any guy that includes a picture of himself with a beer bong, or simulating sex with a blow-up sheep.

    Some of my posts of adventures on online-dating

    I don’t know if you’re being cute or condescending..

    Online Dating Sites make me cry – or – The Ironing is Delicious

    1. I agreed with most of that article.. as far as the spelling goes.. I’m not sure if it’s a GOOD reason to bypass someone, because learning disabilities and such (although you can sometimes tell who is being lazy and who genuinely has trouble with spelling) but it’s definitely a reason I’ve bypassed some people’s profiles.

      That’s fair. I was thinking more of the messages that are intentionally misspelled out of laziness — “hey u r hott,” etc.

  2. Jill: I was thinking more of the messages that are intentionally misspelled out of laziness — “hey u r hott,” etc.

    Oh, absolutely no argument here. That’s annoying.

  3. The article left out the “revenge-seekers.” While I encountered two or three guys from the article, my main pests were the guys who had just gotten divorced or broken-up from a long term relationship. Their profiles would always list “Loves bar-be-ques, and hanging out with friends.” Read: I want to show you off to my friends so my ex will hear about it. Double bonus that you’re smart (I was in grad school at the time) because I want my ex to be pissed that I got a beautiful, smart girlfriend.

    Yeah, I had no time for that. I’m a no drama llama.

  4. I love what you say about being Steeped in Dude Culture.

    If someone lists 700 super-cool pop culture interests and none of that is created by women, if the person seems otherwise cool and sexy I may ask: “What, no lady writers/singers/filmmakers?”

    If I get a response that says “You know what, you’re right, I never thought about it. I definitely like x, y, and z ladies. Also, who do you like?” that person is possibly dateable.

    If I get a long mansplanation about how he’s just being honest and choosing work that has real merit, and how he shouldn’t have to like work by women or people of color just because it’s PC and I can’t make him, as if ignoring the creative output of half the human race is some badge of honor because of his total honesty and dedication to mastery of craft or authenticity of WHO HE IS or some bullshit, he gets tagged “WARNING: EXTREMELY UNFUCKABLE” and deleted.

    So many pretty pretty men deleted. So many.

  5. Those are some good red flags. I do feel like a bit of a racist now since if you asked me who my favorite authors and singers are, I’d probably list white women. I’ve at least read a lot of authors of different races, genders and sexual orientations.

    However, from the article: “The sheer volume of potential mates helps turn the tables even further. At a time when women are told that we’re getting too old and successful to find suitable partners, online dating offers us the buffet of options men have traditionally enjoyed.”

    Did you know that 2/3’s of the men on OKCupid are contacting only 1/3 of the women? I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you are in that 1/3. So not every woman’s experience is going to match yours. Especially “older” women. I’m not sure if that means since the sheer volume of responses would be less, there would be fewer men with red flags and a greater number of “quality” responses or if it just means there are just fewer men to pick from and the same percentage of red flags. It would be interesting to find out.

  6. So true, especially #1. It always made me think that a dude who had to specify that he was drama free and wanted a woman who was drama free was a) a drama generator and b) attracted to drama generators. And if all they have is “nice,” well, nice is the baseline. If all I needed was “nice” and nothing else, I could have a stable of husbands, FFS. Come on! Throw me a frickin’ bone here–what makes you tick?? I’m nice. I shower every day. I’m not a serial killer. But it doesn’t entitle me to jack squat.

    Also? Guys, when you take a snapshot for your profile, can you PLEASE not wear a baseball hat? (ESPECIALLY not with sunglasses. You are not in witness protection.) I mean, I don’t expect a glamor shot, but I do hope you’d make some sort of an effort to look nice. I made an effort, so I’m not going to be that jazzed about connecting with someone who couldn’t be bothered. Run a comb through your hair, shave (or trim the beard), maybe wear something that isn’t wrinkled and doesn’t have the name of your favorite bar splashed across it?

  7. Also? Guys, when you take a snapshot for your profile, can you PLEASE not wear a baseball hat? (ESPECIALLY not with sunglasses. You are not in witness protection.) I mean, I don’t expect a glamor shot, but I do hope you’d make some sort of an effort to look nice. I made an effort, so I’m not going to be that jazzed about connecting with someone who couldn’t be bothered. Run a comb through your hair, shave (or trim the beard), maybe wear something that isn’t wrinkled and doesn’t have the name of your favorite bar splashed across it?

    It’s like you’re interested in dating grown ups or something weird like that. Why do women have to be so picky??

  8. Cosign to your red flags, Jill, except for the shirtless pic. Guys over 40 will sometimes post a shirtless pic of them doing something active (running, swimming, boating, rock climbing, whatever is shirt-free appropriate) as shorthand for two things: I’m older but still physically fit, and I’m still active—I don’t just re-live my glory days of yore from the comfort of my couch. (Just thought I might mention that as a generational difference. I still agree with you about the shirtless random flexing shots, tho’).

  9. Your article states that you “mostly date guys.” Typo? Giving the bi and queer ladies some hope?

  10. Great piece Jill. Some bang-on insights; found myself nodding in agreement along the way. I think it’s safe to say those red flags are equally relevant to the male audience. These human traffic cones were just as prominent in my own experience. I might however venture to add a few more…one of personal faves: “I don’t have time to fill this out right now” or “I’ll get to this later” inscribed as the only text in someones bio section (likely on a profile created at 3:48am Sunday). Really online daters? We don’t expect a well organized research paper with a provocative thesis but you are writing about what we hope is an extremely interesting subject so if words are in short supply expect the same scarcity of quality suitors in your inbox.

  12. Loved the list. Most of these are also red flags for myself.
    My red flags that you don’t list are mostly related to the fact that I’m a lesbian. I object to performing the role of “hot lesbian for the titillation of straight men.” I get that some women are into that, but I’m not. Not to say that I’m unwilling to date bisexuals – one of my most successful and happy relationships was with a bisexual woman. I’m just not interested in men, so I’m not interested in turning them on.

  13. Esteleth, I couldn’t agree more. It’s a big reason I stay away form online dating. However, I also had one of my most enjoyable and positive relationship-type experiences with a bisexual woman. She actually changed my views on dating bisexual women in a really positive way.

  14. Andie – as someone that studies English, I don’t expect that people should spell perfectly. Partly that is humbleness, as I mess up a word here or there. Partly, many people don’t spend as much time staring at words on a page with a dictionary open as I do. So “mischievious” and even the occasional “definately” don’t break it for me, but spellings more systematic than that probably mean that their spelling errors would irk me just as much as my corrections would irk them.

    Sheelzebub, this may be a difference in standards, but I don’t see the issue in wearing baseball caps. There are issues when people don’t groom to your expectations, and wearing a hat in all of six pictures would be excessive, but wearing a baseball cap is like wearing any other hat. I can’t judge the cleanliness of the hair or person beneath it.

    My most curious red flag chat was when a woman started a conversation with me by asking why my profile pictures looked different from one another. They ranged across a year or two since I collected the best pictures, I tended to wear my hair short or longer depending on the picture, and the camera angles were different in relation to my face, but she wouldn’t trust my insistence that I was the same person in all of them. I still don’t know what the goal of that conversation was.

  15. Slightly tangential, but my curiosity was piqued by this statement:
    “Men are socialized to Hit Anything That Moves (or at least to consider having sex with any interested woman).”

    I’m just wondering if the implied message is that male prosmicuity is socially conditioned rather than a natural impulse. I think the more accurate statement would be “non-religious men are genernally not socialized to turn sex down.” In other words I think it’s more omission than commission.

  16. I met my wife via the internet, and I think it’s bad to write in terms of general red flags this way. A good profile should communicate who you are, and thus help us go where we’re going. I don’t want to fault anyone whose profile is written without regard for grammar or spelling, because she’s communicating who she is (I don’t want to date her, but now I can start chatting up the kind of woman who uses proper grammar in texts, and she can chat up the kind of guy who spells ‘the’ five different ways in one sentence, and we’re all happier for it. Great.) Why would I want to give tips to someone I wouldn’t want to date on how to make a profile so that I’ll try to chat her up and waste both our time?

    I think the more accurate statement would be “non-religious men are genernally not socialized to turn sex down.” In other words I think it’s more omission than commission.

    It’s definitely commission, at least often. I was definitely socialised to not turn down sex. Restricting it to “non-religious” is also incomplete. (And honestly, I don’t think “with women” gets in very well either.)

  17. Aside: Now that I am 54, men hit on me who are in their 60s and beyond. It was such a shock to me to learn it NEVER ENDS.

    I guess when I am in my 90s and ready to drop dead, men over 100 will send me emails saying “You don’t look a day over 80, baby!”

    (sigh)

  18. Taliesin_Merlin: Andie – as someone that studies English, I don’t expect that people should spell perfectly. Partly that is humbleness, as I mess up a word here or there. Partly, many people don’t spend as much time staring at words on a page with a dictionary open as I do. So “mischievious” and even the occasional “definately” don’t break it for me, but spellings more systematic than that probably mean that their spelling errors would irk me just as much as my corrections would irk them.

    Fair, and that’s what I was saying when I said that some people DO have genuine difficulty with spelling. I also said I don’t think it’s necessarily a GOOD reason to turn someone down, but it’s a reason I have used.

    But I can’t deal with ‘Hi, your cute. Want 2 chat sumtime?’

    Even when it’s not a case of laziness it may be indicative of possible issues if said person is – hmm, how to put this gently – of a different intellectual level. I’m a pretty smart woman. I don’t mind saying this. But a downside of that is sometimes I have trouble relating to people because I operate on a different level.

    Is there a certain level of snobbery involved? Maybe. But that’s my call to make. Worst case scenario: I miss out on meeting the be-all end-all love of my life. Best case scenario: I save an hour or two of my time avoiding awkwardness on a first date, or worse, ending up in a relationship with someone who needs constant reassurance that they are not ‘stupid’ or who resents you when you occasionally forget to dumb it down for them.

    That’s a gamble I’m willing to take for now.

  19. The worst:

    Older guys who only want someone younger than them. It smacks of pedophilia frankly.

    The second worst:

    Fat chick ranters.

    If you’re not into fat women, just say “no fat women, sorry not my type.” They’ll understand and move on to the next one. But if you feel the need to go on and on about how Americans are obese because they’re lazy and addicted to potato chips and if these women would all just get off their lazy asses and exercise an amazing handsome guy such as you wouldn’t throw up in their presence–

    You just made this thin woman want to throw up. Have a pepperoni pizza, why don’t you? Maybe it’ll improve your attitude.

    1. Fat chick ranters.

      If you’re not into fat women, just say “no fat women, sorry not my type.” They’ll understand and move on to the next one. But if you feel the need to go on and on about how Americans are obese because they’re lazy and addicted to potato chips and if these women would all just get off their lazy asses and exercise an amazing handsome guy such as you wouldn’t throw up in their presence–

      You just made this thin woman want to throw up. Have a pepperoni pizza, why don’t you? Maybe it’ll improve your attitude.

      WORD. Although honestly, if a dude has “no fat women, sorry not my type” in his profile, I’m still going to think he’s an asshole. Because there are 5,000 different physical characteristics that don’t appeal to me, but I don’t list them in my online dating profile. I say what I am looking for, and if someone messages me who isn’t my type for whatever reason, I just don’t respond. No need to publicly declare that I find some peoples’ bodies unattractive. It’s not necessary, it does nothing, and it’s just mean. Especially when you’re targeting bodies that are often bashed and talked about as if they’re less worthy.

  20. So Jill,
    does this mean you’re outing yourself as the host of Annals of Online Dating? Because I’ve been getting a kick out of that site for months.

    Also, bonus red flag: Short, strangely unspecific messages that indicate phishing. Sadly, every site has a couple of people (okay, guys) who send out stock messages en masse to women without reading their profiles.

    Ariel, I think this pertains to your point. In a medium like online dating, some guys tend to send out a vast number of messages on the basis that it’s the quickest way to eventual sex. That’s probably socially ingrained. Unsurprisingly, the outcome of this is that any woman who conforms to society’s idea of physically attractiveness is bombarded by messages.

    1. So Jill,
      does this mean you’re outing yourself as the host of Annals of Online Dating? Because I’ve been getting a kick out of that site for months.

      Ha, no. But glad you like the article, and Annals.

  21. Sheelzebub: Also? Guys, when you take a snapshot for your profile, can you PLEASE not wear a baseball hat? (ESPECIALLY not with sunglasses. You are not in witness protection.) I mean, I don’t expect a glamor shot, but I do hope you’d make some sort of an effort to look nice. I made an effort, so I’m not going to be that jazzed about connecting with someone who couldn’t be bothered. Run a comb through your hair, shave (or trim the beard), maybe wear something that isn’t wrinkled and doesn’t have the name of your favorite bar splashed across it?

    I feel this way about internet first dates. I make an effort for a first date–a little make-up, a skirt, whatever. If I show up and you are sitting there wearing an over-sized t-shirt that you pulled out of the hamper that morning and jeans that have clearly spent the past week crumpled on the floor of your bedroom and you haven’t bothered to shave or wash your hair? Forget it. If you think there’s a chance you might want to get into my pants, make an effort to be attractive to me.

    Also, speaking as a bi woman? I am not interested in a threesome with you and your wife/girlfriend. You know how you can tell? Not once in my profile did I indicate any interest in a threesome with anybody at all whatsoever. Being bi does not mean that I’m any more likely to be into a threesome than anybody else; it means I’m attracted to both men and women, and I list it specifically because I know that some lesbians are not comfortable dating bi women, and I have had an unhappy experience as a result of that in the past, not so that I can get hassled by straight dudes looking to fulfill their sexual fantasies. Do not message me randomly saying that I’m cute and your girlfriend’s cute and how about a threesome, cutie. I know this may be hard to process, but even though I’m bi, I don’t like threesomes and my criteria for whom I’d like to have sex with are more complex than “cute,” which you can tell because I didn’t list “casual sex” as one of the things I am looking for. There is nothing wrong with either threesomes or casual sex, but I don’t want either, even though I’m bi.

  22. I’ll also add that I’m a big booster for internet dating. The other night I noticed a girl I hooked up with a few times at a loud crowded bar. There’s zero chance I would negotiate my way thru the throngs to break a conversation she was having with her friends to chat her up with some canned lines. On top of that, when you’re surrounded by so many stimuli everyone seems to blur together except perhaps for the most attractive (and picky) prospects. Which again you would need to approach in a loud crowded setting while they get attention from every other schmo. So if nothing else the serene concentration that online dating allows you is so worth it.

  23. I’ve often thought it would be funny if people actually completed their profiles listing their activities in order of the proportion of time actually spent on said activity. So something like: Likes sleep, work, napping video games, watching television, eating, personal grooming, masturbation, flossing, yelling at the TV, cooking, being angry on the internet, talking about ankles, running, rock climbing, writing poetry, volleyball, and long walks on the beach.

  24. Man, I’m in the minority I guess, because I love shirtless pics, and I don’t really care if all he reads/listens to, etc.etc. are white and male authors and musicians. To me, this isn’t a mortal personality flaw. Not everyone is worldly, and I think that’s ok. YMMV, of course. But I wouldn’t disqualify a guy for that.

    I cosign with the poster above that said no baseball hats in your online dating profile pic,because I want to see your face. And yes, please shower before you come out to meet me for a date! DO NOT COME STRAIGHT FROM THE GYM!
    ALSO: Please let me get a word in edgewise/don’t make me do ALL THE TALKING. Both are equally annoying.
    Can I also say that if a guy can tell by looking at me/talking to me for a few minutes he’s not into it, I am fine with him excusing himself. I’d rather BOTH of us not waste our time.

  25. Why is the age thing an inappropriate preference? If you truly prefer someone in a certain age range, you can prevent a lot of time-wasting messages from older women by stating your preference.

    And, by the way, a lot of women specify their age preferences as well, so it goes both ways.

    1. Why is the age thing an inappropriate preference? If you truly prefer someone in a certain age range, you can prevent a lot of time-wasting messages from older women by stating your preference.

      And, by the way, a lot of women specify their age preferences as well, so it goes both ways.

      Specifying an age preference is fine — I specify age ranges, too, because I don’t want to date men my dad’s age (or men who are still in college). It’s the specifying that you won’t date someone your own age that is an absolute deal-breaker for me. And to be clear, I’m not saying that dudes who actually will not date women their own age should lie just so they don’t get rejected. They should not lie! I am just saying, that indicates a serious issue with women generally, and means that they aren’t looking for an egalitarian relationship. I am glad they put that out there, because then I know to avoid them.

  26. Another red flag: men who write that they want a woman who’s beautiful, but doesn’t know it and/or doesn’t TRY to be beautiful. Gross me out the door. Men can care about women being beautiful, but if women care about being beautiful, they’re vain and shallow.

  27. A net.acquaintance of mine posted to an online dating site, making clear in her posting that she was childfree by choice. (She posted this story to alt.support.childfree, where it’s still available through Google Groups.) One response she got was:

    single dad have child will not leave her for the world with the way
    the world
    is now grow-up and smell the coffee there are more single dads out
    there and
    and woman that cant handle that will grow old alone

    She replied, reiterating that she was in fact childfree and not interested in a longterm relationship with a parent:

    Blonde vs. brunette, fat vs. thin – these are preferences. Little
    things that a person might like to see in a potential mate, but not
    terribly important.

    Child – this is a major, life-altering variable. Not easily
    overlooked.

    I choose to be child-free. That means I intend to have no children –
    ever. Not my own, not someone else’s. This is not negotiable.

    What I have to wonder about, though, is why you chose to make a
    response of any kind to my ad. If I had specified that I was looking
    for someone in Pennsylvania, and you lived in Arizona, would you have
    written to me to tell me to get over it, that there were men in
    Arizona, and if I didn’t move, I’d die alone???

    I suspect that this little hissy-fit is based more in your own
    frustrations. Perhaps you, too, need to “grow up and smell the
    coffee” that there are a growing number of child-free women out there.

    And, there are worse things than being alone.

    I wish you luck in your search.

    His reply:

    > One: i am from NJ and will be back there in Nov
    > Two: a preson that has a problem with a single parent and loving that
    >child, dose not know thw true meaning of love. and will never really love
    >a mate the way they should probley because they dont love themself i think
    >you might need to look into your own heart and love thee self fist and
    >maybe you might find the love you need
    > GOOD LUCK

    (Her comment was, “All I can add is that if I could “self fist”, would I need a man?”

  28. I have have said it before and I will never ever stop, the message must be heard!! Listing The Fountainhead as a favourite book is the biggest red flag of them all. Rand’s “objective selfishness” is just fancy talk for “raging asshole that rages and revels in its asshole-ness”.

  29. I have started to get annoyed by the exclusive white-dudeness of many men’s favorite authors/directors/musicians/artists. Especially when it’s all pretentious crap. Don’t get me wrong. I love pretentious stuff, too. But really? Your favorite authors are James Joyce, Nabokov, Tolstoy, Melville, and Pynchon? I call bullshit. Nobody spends the bulk of their leisure-time reading with Ulysses, Lolita, and Moby Dick (though I do think that Ulysses is an amazing achievement). What are you reading really? What murder mystery series do you eagerly await the next book in? What writers crack you up in public on the subway? What books do you stay up at night finishing? If you claim that you are settling down every evening to read Dostoeyevsky or Thomas Mann or David Foster Wallace, I call bullshit.

    Also? Men who list Roman Polanski or Woody Allen as their favorite directors. They never include any commentary about how they’re horrible people, either, but they can’t help loving the movies. It’s not that Polanski isn’t a great director. He is–Chinatown and Rosemary’s Baby are awesome movies. It’s that he’s a child rapist, and by listing him as one of your favorites in an on-line dating website that is meant to describe you and your values, you have just told me that you have no problem with associating yourself with a child rapist and don’t see why that would be off-putting at all. For Woody Allen, I don’t even like his movies, and rather than being a child-rapist, he’s an asshole who fucked his stepdaughter. I do not see this as a massive improvement. I will never, ever, ever message or respond to anybody who lists Polanski or Allen in their favorites section.

  30. @Stubborn Kind of Fellow

    “some guys tend to send out a vast number of messages on the basis that it’s the quickest way to eventual sex. That’s probably socially ingrained”

    A few points:
    1. I don’t write canned emails, but I do wink a lot when I’m moderately interested but can’t tease anything interesting out of a profile (spoiler alert: women write terrible profiles as well). So yes, it’s a hail mary pass usually applied to very attractive women. But I don’t see why this requires social conditioning. I got nothing to lose by winking a woman before I forget her and move on to the next one.

    2. It is a numbers game for men. If you want to get laid, you have to contact a lot of women. So to the extent that this is socially-conditioned, I think it just reflects the actual social dynamics in play. I may also add Evan Marc Katz’s maxim that “Men look for sex and find love, women look for love and find sex.” You may disagree with that, but I think it has some validity. We’ll have our sexual fun first and wonder much later if our mate’s taste in literature and politics are compatible with ours. We face a different set of costs and rewards.

    Anyways, I know some websites allow users to filter out users who don’t match their defined criteria, so that’s the best you can hope for as far as stopping the deluge.

  31. Hairless Cat: Why is the age thing an inappropriate preference? If you truly prefer someone in a certain age range, you can prevent a lot of time-wasting messages from older women by stating your preference.

    Because I do not want to date a 40-year-old man who is gung-ho about fucking a 23-year-old woman but has no interest in a 41-year-old woman, and I didn’t want to when I was 23, either. That speaks volumes about his priorities and how he perceives women and what kind of heterosexual relationship he wants, and what it says is unsavory and unappealing. Even if I fall into your preferred age-range, I do not want to date you if you are this kind of man.

  32. Kristen J.: I’ve often thought it would be funny if people actually completed their profiles listing their activities in order of the proportion of time actually spent on said activity. So something like: Likes sleep, work, napping video games, watching television, eating, personal grooming, masturbation, flossing, yelling at the TV, cooking, being angry on the internet, talking about ankles, running, rock climbing, writing poetry, volleyball, and long walks on the beach.

    You make me want to do online dating again and put this in my profile.

  34. It was heartening to see no red flagging of card games. (Apologies for my inability to link.)

    And good on Mmes Esteleth and Anecdotal for happy relationships/experiences across the LG/B divide.

  36. ArielNYC: It is a numbers game for men. If you want to get laid, you have to contact a lot of women.

    Does it not occur to any men that if they paid attention to a woman’s profile and bothered to construct a personalized, intriguing, well-written message, they might actually increase their chances of getting laid? I automatically dismiss any message that contains nothing more than “Hi” or “You’re cute” or “What’re you doing tomorrow?” because it’s clear that whoever wrote it did not actually read my profile or have anything interesting to say. And I also dismiss all messages from men who did not bother to read about what I’m looking for. Those messages have a much lower chance of getting their senders laid than a message that makes me actually want to respond.

  37. So something like: Likes sleep, work, napping video games, watching television, eating, personal grooming, masturbation, flossing, yelling at the TV, cooking, being angry on the internet, talking about ankles, running, rock climbing, writing poetry, volleyball, and long walks on the beach.

    I think you have “being angry on the internet” a bit too far down the list.

  38. My (least) favorite current red flag is a claim that the gentleman is looking for a “real-life Liz Lemon!” Translation: I’m into petite brunettes who laugh at my jokes! This is a disservice to real ladies out there, and to my beloved LL. Because there seriously aren’t that many dudes who are interested in funny women with the occasional piece lettuce in their hair.

  39. Why is the age thing an inappropriate preference?

    No one said it was inappropriate, but a commenter said (and I share this feeling) that she wasn’t particularly impressed with men who ONLY dated women younger than them. They’re free to do what they want. The thing is, even if I fall in a guy’s preferred age range, the fact that he thinks he’s too good for a woman his own age is a turnoff to me.

  40. EG: I automatically dismiss any message that contains nothing more than “Hi” or “You’re cute” or “What’re you doing tomorrow?” because it’s clear that whoever wrote it did not actually read my profile or have anything interesting to say.

    Or when they ask “So what are your interests?” when you have about 20 listed.

    When my POF profile was active, I had a trivia question based on the opening line of my profile.. (ie, what song is this from).. even if the guy didn’t know what it was, if they acknowledged that they didn’t know it was a pretty good indicator that they were paying attention, at least.

  41. Foundforwords: I might however venture to add a few more…one of personal faves: “I don’t have time to fill this out right now” or “I’ll get to this later” inscribed as the only text in someones bio section (likely on a profile created at 3:48am Sunday).

    Oh, that drives me crazy. Especially when the profile says, “Member since 2009.”

    Another thing, somewhat related, that drives me bugfuck are the ones who are above it all, too sexy for this website. Dude, you’re on the same site I am, looking for the same thing. Don’t act like you’re only doing this under duress, or that somehow it’s lame when I do it but beneath you when you do it.

    Also? I’ve got a couple of guys who’ve been looking at me on OKCupid since 2007 who haven’t once contacted me. Every month or so, they turn up in my visitors list but never, ever send me a message.

  42. @31 Gretchen
    “Rand’s “objective selfishness” is just fancy talk for “raging asshole that rages and revels in its asshole-ness”.”

    Evil is more exciting. I’m trying to picture a fun conversation about Mother Teresa but I’m coming short. But a snarky conversation unpacking all of Ayn Rand’s foibles and flaws? Delightful. Saintly people are admirable but their very perfection or near perfection makes them distant.

  43. @EG

    For sure. My guess though is that most men don’t take one approach to all women they contact. Those they really really really dig probably get more personalized attention. And same vice versa.

  44. Jill: Although honestly, if a dude has “no fat women, sorry not my type” in his profile, I’m still going to think he’s an asshole. Because there are 5,000 different physical characteristics that don’t appeal to me, but I don’t list them in my online dating profile. I say what I am looking for, and if someone messages me who isn’t my type for whatever reason, I just don’t respond. No need to publicly declare that I find some peoples’ bodies unattractive. It’s not necessary, it does nothing, and it’s just mean. Especially when you’re targeting bodies that are often bashed and talked about as if they’re less worthy.

    There are also ways to convey that information in terms of what you want rather than what you don’t want. While I object to the elision of “thin” and “fit,” if a guy says he’s looking for a woman who’s “fit,” I understand what that means but also understand that he’s not a “no fat chicks” kind of asshole.

  45. Gretchen: I have have said it before and I will never ever stop, the message must be heard!! Listing The Fountainhead as a favourite book is the biggest red flag of them all. Rand’s “objective selfishness” is just fancy talk for “raging asshole that rages and revels in its asshole-ness”.

    Haha. I actually say in my profile that I find libertarians to be ridiculous and will mock you if you tell me you are one. I’ve had a couple of guys try to argue me out of that.

  46. Is there a good service available to help review your profile? See what’s lacking that means either a very low contact or response rate, as the case may be.

    Does “Hi, your cute, wanna f*ck?” as the sole contents of a message ever work? It certainly seems easier than reading a profile and spending a good half hour writing a few paragraphs about common interests and questions that then isn’t responded to.

  47. @Andie
    “Men look for sex and find love, women look for love and find sex.”
    –“That’s some pretty awesome gender-essentializing bullshit, right there.”

    It is and it isn’t. Putting biology aside, there’s lots of privilige involved. Men don’t need to scrutinize which books and movies women list on their profiles and verify that enough white men are represented. But if you accept that lots of men on online dating websites look for whatever they can get, then I don’t see how a poor reading list would stop a guy from a hooking up with a woman. Ask yourself what this guy has to lose.

  48. ArielNYC: I may also add Evan Marc Katz’s maxim that “Men look for sex and find love, women look for love and find sex.”

    Evan Marc Katz? You mean this guy?

    Yeah, I’m going to accept the gender-essentialist stylings of a guy whose main bit of advice to women is that they’re being too picky, what with the having standards and opinions and stuff.

  49. FashionablyEvil: I think you have “being angry on the internet” a bit too far down the list.

    Heh, well…if it were my list it would probably be pretty high, probably after “being a dog pillow”, but I was going for a more generic representation. 😉

  50. “Men look for sex and find love, women look for love and find sex.”

    Wait, I don’t understand. If men end up with love and women end up with sex, how can they end up together?

  51. @zuzu

    1. “You’re too picky” applies to everyone, as Katz himself would tell you.

    2. You don’t need to believe in biological hardwiring to observe that dating patterns for men and women differ. If you accept that men are not slut shamed and that we face less sexual risks, then it’s perfectly logical that men get to pursue their sexual desires first and only then decide whether they they have further interest. I happen to think that biology also plays some part (e.g. the issue of women being more concerned about sexual competence than vice versa comes up in feminist spaces), but that’s a matter of debate.

  52. One other red flag for me that hasn’t been mentioned here: Getting all bent out of shape when I don’t reply to your messages. Especially if the second message contains whining about how “You don’t understaaannnddd; it’s so hard for men to get rejected all the time!” Extra bonus if that message gets sent only a couple days after the initial message, with no turn-around time.

    Seriously, I have no obligation to respond to any messages I receive on OKCupid; as Jill says in the article, that’s one of the things that’s so great about online dating for women. If you’re going to get attached enough to me based on my online dating profile before I’ve even messaged you back that my rejecting/ignoring you is going to be terrible and soul-crushing, then you have some serious issues with women that are seriously Not My Problem.

    Also, I sometimes get really lazy about responding to online dating messages, even if they’re from guys I’m interested in. More than once, a guy I was interested in and thinking of responding to has sent me a whiny “whyyy didn’t you respond?!?!” message that has sent his (sometimes quite good) chances with me to plummet to zero. Very, very occasionally, a very respectful second message from a guy I found intriguing will get a response from me, if it says something like “I think I messaged you a couple weeks ago and didn’t hear anything back, but you seemed interesting and I wanted to try one last time.” But generally, the sense of entitlement to my attention that these “why didn’t you respond!?” messages imply is a major, major red flag.

    And, as a bonus, the most egregious example of this phenomenon that I’ve experienced, so egregious that it actually made it onto Annals of Online Dating (yes, I’m very proud):

  54. It is a numbers game for men. If you want to get laid, you have to contact a lot of women.

    The okcupid data makes it clear that this isn’t really true. Women reply to ~28% of messages, men reply to ~42% of messages. Which is quantitatively different, but qualitatively similar.

  55. @58 Brian

    Those stats don’t necessarily tell you how many women actually agreed to go on a date vs. the number for men, i.e. how many emails does the median guy have to send to get a date.

  56. ch: One other red flag for me that hasn’t been mentioned here: Getting all bent out of shape when I don’t reply to your messages.

    Oh God yes, this. I hid my profile for a few months after a guy who I hadn’t responded to right away called me an uppity bitch for not replying to his well-thought-out email. The same day as I got the brush-off from a guy that I thought I had hit off well with (it ended up being for the best as we’re still friends, not really close but friends nonetheless). It was like ‘ugh, fuck this’. I replied back, blasting him and pointing out that people have LIVES and can’t always reply in a timely manner blah blah blah.

    Actually my most recent profile hiding came from being sick of feeling obligated to reply (yeah, that incident haunted me a bit. Plus, socialization.)

  57. ch: One other red flag for me that hasn’t been mentioned here: Getting all bent out of shape when I don’t reply to your messages. Especially if the second message contains whining about how “You don’t understaaannnddd; it’s so hard for men to get rejected all the time!”

    Fucking hell that turned me right off. There were men I was interested who did not message me back and I didn’t feel entitled to throw a fucking tantrum; I moved on. And I’m willing to bet these same whiners had no compunction about blowing off women they weren’t interested in. Which is fine–it’s a fucking email, it’s not marriage, we’re all grownups here (allegedly). But then know that it will happen to you, wipe your nose, and stop with the fucking tantrums. Cripes.

  58. Taliesin_Merlin: Sheelzebub, this may be a difference in standards, but I don’t see the issue in wearing baseball caps. There are issues when people don’t groom to your expectations, and wearing a hat in all of six pictures would be excessive, but wearing a baseball cap is like wearing any other hat. I can’t judge the cleanliness of the hair or person beneath it.

    Yeah, but I can’t really see what he look like. Also, baseball hats kill the sexy for me. They look sloppy to me, and it comes across that the guy just couldn’t be bothered to even comb his hair. Your profile pic–especially the first one everyone sees–should show what you actually look like. And yes, make an effort. Putting on a baseball cap and a t-shirt isn’t making an effort.

  59. Sheelzebub: They look sloppy to me, and it comes across that the guy just couldn’t be bothered to even comb his hair.

    Or is insecure about his hairline. There’s nothing wrong with a receding hairline, and managed properly it can be dead sexy, but insecurity is not so awesome.

    Backwards baseball caps are worse, though.

  60. It is a numbers game for men. If you want to get laid, you have to contact a lot of women. So to the extent that this is socially-conditioned, I think it just reflects the actual social dynamics in play.

    I don’t think this holds true, at least it doesn’t in my experience. I did internet dating for a while last year, and was fairly selective in who I messaged, took time in writing and more often than not got a date out of it.

    I don’t really see the point in carpet bombing dozens of people with e-mails when you can spot ahead of time who you’re likely to get on with. And what, are you going to go out with ten or fifteen random women in the hope one date will lead to a one night stand? It’s a better use of time to come up with something interesting for the few people you do like.

  62. Sheelzebub: Your profile pic–especially the first one everyone sees–should show what you actually look like.

    Wait, so you mean I shouldn’t have used a picture of me drinking out of a toilet as my main picture?

  63. Ariel – of course that’s true, but that’s the best metric we have, which is why I use it. Probably there’s a nontrivial offset in response -> date frequency, but using the data we have is way better than anecdotes + appeal to stereotypes.

    FWIW, I met my wife via a dating site, and had dates with a couple other women. The numbers weren’t bad – once I’d honestly worked myself up to trying to convert messaging to going on a date, it was probably ~50%. The less specific your message(s) is, the worse you’re going to do, of course. (Indeed, my wife tells me the only reason she responded to me at all was that it was obvious I’d put time into reading her profile, and thinking about whether we were plausibly compatible, etc.)

  64. And to be clear, I’m not saying that dudes who actually will not date women their own age should lie just so they don’t get rejected. They should not lie! I am just saying, that indicates a serious issue with women generally, and means that they aren’t looking for an egalitarian relationship. I am glad they put that out there, because then I know to avoid them.

    I’m not sure, if you want an inegalitarian relationship you can always date down within your own age group (doctor + receptionist). Or you might want to date someone younger because you want children – which is an okay aspiration to have. And I’m not sure a relationship with an age gap would be less egalitarian – older women have pressures like kids, the biological clock, and have less options in the dating market – which could make them relationships with them more inegalitarian than a with a younger person who has no dependents and more options. Also, because it sticks around once you’ve got it the older someone is the more likely they’ve got herpes – just saying.

    Also gotta say, most of it’s probably just guys wanting to have sex with someone young and attractive, it’s more ‘I’d hit that’ rather than any particular commitment to egalitarian or inegalitarian relationships or even just a relationship. Not really sure you can blame them for that. Suppose it all kinda complicated.

  65. About men of a certain age not wanting to date women their own age: I was one of them (“was” because I quit the online dating scene about a year ago). There are reasons for this that don’t have anything to do with with strength, power or equality. Some of us men have had the experience of dating women in their late 30’s that are, well, baby crazy. Too many of them are looking for a sperm donor, not a partner. Sorry if that’s rude but it was my experience, and it wasn’t a whole lot of fun. The age parameters I wound up with had much more to do with wanting to avoid those situations than wanting to avoid strong women. Just sayin’.

  67. Tina: Thosearesomegoodredflags.Idofeellikeabitofaracistnowsinceifyouaskedmewhomyfavoriteauthorsandsingersare,I’dprobablylistwhitewomen.I’veatleastreadalotofauthorsofdifferentraces,gendersandsexualorientations.However,fromthearticle:“Thesheervolumeofpotentialmateshelpsturnthetablesevenfurther.Atatimewhenwomenaretoldthatwe’regettingtoooldandsuccessfultofindsuitablepartners,onlinedatingoffersusthebuffetofoptionsmenhavetraditionallyenjoyed.”Didyouknowthat2/3′softhemenonOKCupidarecontactingonly1/3ofthewomen?I’mgoingtogooutonalimbandguessthatyouareinthat1/3.Sonoteverywoman’sexperienceisgoingtomatchyours.Especially“older”women.I’mnotsureifthatmeanssincethesheervolumeofresponseswouldbeless,therewouldbefewermenwithredflagsandagreaternumberof“quality”responsesorifitjustmeanstherearejustfewermentopickfromandthesamepercentageofredflags.Itwouldbeinterestingtofindout.

    I can attest to that… anecdotally.

    I was on a site at 38 and had all kinds of responses. That relationship ended after a year, and since it worked well once, I thought I’d try again. Now, at 40, I get very few responses. I must just be in denial and not be able to see how much my looks have declined in the last couple years.

  68. I mean, does personality/ideals/intelligence not count for shit? because that’s how that comment reads. They’re not looking for any sort of partner, just a shiny new fuck toy.

  69. valentifan69: Also gotta say, most of it’s probably just guys wanting to have sex with someone young and attractive, it’s more ‘I’d hit that’ rather than any particular commitment to egalitarian or inegalitarian relationships or even just a relationship. Not really sure you can blame them for that. Suppose it all kinda complicated.

    I don’t think it’s all that complicated. If a 40-year-old man thinks he’s hot enough for a 22-year-old woman, but can’t conceive of the possibility that a 41-year-old woman could be hot enough to meet his exacting standards, he is enacting some misogynist bullshit right there and this 35-year-old woman whom he has messaged and is still young enough to have children has no interest in fucking him. Because he’s a douche.

    As to the “what if they want to have children” nonsense–I’ve seen this stuff from 34-year-old men who think that a 21-year-old woman is totally their speed, but a 35-year-old woman is not. Plenty of women give birth after 35. There is also a special section on every personals website I’ve ever seen where you can mention whether or not you want to have kids. That way, if the post-menopausal 53-year-old woman reading the 55-year-old dude’s ad sees that he wants to have kids sometime in the future, she can roll her eyes and move on. And so can the 30-year-old he messages.

    Daisy: Now, at 40, I get very few responses. I must just be in denial and not be able to see how much my looks have declined in the last couple years.

    I bet it’s not that. I bet that you’re not showing up on searches because men and women both, when plugging in what they want, usually have an age cut-off that’s a round number. So if someone’s searching for somebody “under 40,” you’re not going to show up on that search.

  70. I’m not sure, if you want an inegalitarian relationship you can always date down within your own age group (doctor + receptionist).

    Which one is dating down, exactly?

  71. Jill: It’s the specifying that you won’t date someone your own age that is an absolute deal-breaker for me….I am just saying, that indicates a serious issue with women generally, and means that they aren’t looking for an egalitarian relationship.

    I think you’re overgeneralizing with that diagnosis, Jill. Maybe the guy wants to date someone young enough to still have kids without too much difficulty. Maybe he’s just looking for casual sex and finds younger women more attractive. Maybe he finds women his own age tend to be more settled and less adventurous/energetic on average and wants someone younger to more easily match his own energy levels. Maybe he lacks dating experience himself and wants a partner who is his equal in that regard instead of in chronological age. Who knows?

  72. Brian said:

    The numbers weren’t bad – once I’d honestly worked myself up to trying to convert messaging to going on a date, it was probably ~50%. The less specific your message(s) is, the worse you’re going to do, of course. (Indeed, my wife tells me the only reason she responded to me at all was that it was obvious I’d put time into reading her profile, and thinking about whether we were plausibly compatible, etc.)

    You had a lot more success than I did. When I (middle-aged white guy in Chicago) was on match.com, I had a about a 4% success ratio messages sent compared to dates, and sent something like 120 messages before receiving a single positive response. (I know these numbers because I eventually had to start keeping track of who I had e-mailed and who I had not.) Each message I sent referenced something in their profiles, and all tried to have semi-witty subject lines that likewise referred to something in their profiles. (My hypothesis was that subject lines were critical because my guess is most people send subject lines that just say “Hi” or “Hello there” and doing something different would make me stand out from the crowd.)

    I eventually got fed up with match.com and quit, mostly because I had e-mailed all the women currently on there in whom I was interested. I then joined okcupid, and ironically (in the Alanis Morissette meaning), I hit it off with the first woman I e-mailed there and we’ve been dating for a year-and-a-half.

  73. On my online dating misadventure blog, I make a point to never respond to a message that isn’t personalized to my profile. “Hi, ur cute want to chat” does NOT cut it.

    Also, the comment about “no crazies” definitely indicates misogynistic attitudes – the guy who thinks every woman is crazy, a bitch, or PMSing when she freely expresses herself! No thanks.

  74. zuzu: Haha.IactuallysayinmyprofilethatIfindlibertarianstoberidiculousandwillmockyouifyoutellmeyouareone.I’vehadacoupleofguystrytoarguemeoutofthat.

    This is one that has always boggled my mind (and been a red flag, obviously). You put something in your profile that excludes someone from your list of potential mates (i.e. not interested in conservatives or vegans, whatever) and they feel the need to message you and tell you why your preference is wrong. And not-infrequently, they appear to be genuinely offended that you won’t accept them.

    Mind-boggling.

  75. EG: Ibetit’snotthat.Ibetthatyou’renotshowinguponsearchesbecausemenandwomenboth,whenplugginginwhattheywant,usuallyhaveanagecut-offthat’saroundnumber.Soifsomeone’ssearchingforsomebody“under40,”you’renotgoingtoshowuponthatsearch.

    I do get the 60+ year olds… you know, my father’s peers.

    So maybe I should say I’m 41, and it’ll be a nice surprise that I’m actually younger than I said in my profile, rather than older.

  76. @R. Dave

    “I think you’re overgeneralizing with that diagnosis, Jill. Maybe the guy wants to date someone young enough to still have kids without too much difficulty. Maybe he’s just looking for casual sex and finds younger women more attractive. Maybe he finds women his own age tend to be more settled and less adventurous/energetic on average and wants someone younger to more easily match his own energy levels. Maybe he lacks dating experience himself and wants a partner who is his equal in that regard instead of in chronological age. Who knows?”

    Or maybe he’s just a pedophile? Maybe he’s a rapist who finds the inexperience of younger women easier to manipulate?

    The description you said fits maybe 1% of men at 40 looking for young women to date. My description fits 99% of them.

  77. Calderon

    I’m lead to believe paysites often have a problem with keeping inactive (or even fake?) profiles around. I see a lot of references to that on Google, but I’m not sure how to assess their reliability. That might well be a part of the problem you had at match.com. OkCupid is really the only place that gives data, which is why it’s probably the best to analyse. (And note that your result there is not unexpected.)

  78. Brian said:

    I’m lead to believe paysites often have a problem with keeping inactive (or even fake?) profiles around. I see a lot of references to that on Google, but I’m not sure how to assess their reliability. That might well be a part of the problem you had at match.com.

    That’s certainly possible, though I only e-mailed women who had been active within the last 3 days. My understanding is that most of the claims about inactive profiles is that for match.com people leave their profiles up indefinitely and these will still show up in searches even if the men or women have not logged in for extended periods or are not subscribed; of course, the same thing can happen with okcupid where someone leaves a profile up and stops checking their messages. I’d be surprised if match created a lot of truly fake profiles, but anything is possible (and if they did create fake profiles, wouldn’t they want to respond to men with at least some brief messages to keep the men interested and subscribed).

    In any case, I think my okcupid experience may have been more about luck than anything else. I actually first saw my girlfriend’s profile on match, but it already said she had not logged on in 3 weeks or more, and just happened to chance by it on okcupid after I created a profile there.

  79. Oh OkCupid. We have a sordid past. I wrote a blog post about it here actually. These red flags are pretty spot-on, but I’ll add a few myself:

    A guy who wants to go straight from message to date, with not phone/Skype interlude in between. Anyway who’s exceptionally vague about what it is they’re actually looking for is looking for casual sex. Over 15 dates in six months has taught me that more than anything else.

    And I know this is more my idiocy than anything else, but let me reiterate to everyone:

    DO NOT INVITE A FIRST DATE TO YOUR HOUSE. NO MATTER HOW NICE THEY SEEM.

    I had a guy over after many phone conversations, thinking he was cool. Turned out to be a total creep stalker, and called me for months afterwards threatening to rape me and kill my family. I still have nightmares about it.

  80. WRT “going for much younger women because they can have children” rationale, two things:

    1) I am 42 years old, so not particularly attractive for those men who want to have baby machines, er, young partners. Yet I got messaged by men in their late fifties and older when I was on a site a couple of years ago. And those men refused to consider women their own age. Turnoff right there. I’ve dated men significantly older than me and significantly younger than me, but I would never bother with anyone who refused to even consider someone their own age.

    2) When I was in my twenties and thirties, I didn’t want kids (still don’t). BUT my friends who were looking to get married and/or have kids did so with men their age, not men who were significantly older then they were. You’re free to look for a woman who’s that much younger than you, of course, but be prepared to be looking for a while. Those 20 something women are dating 20 something men. The 30 something women are also getting hit on my 20 something men as well as 30 something men. So. . .you know, good luck with that, fellas.

    I was wrong, a third thing:

    3) Anyone who says they prefer someone younger because they have more energy, are more adventurous, etc. and that women their age aren’t should keep in mind that those younger prospects may pass them over based on the same stereotypes. (And if it’s just because “younger women are hawt,” well guess what, you’re competing with much younger men for the attention of these younger women.)

    End of the day, you’re free to have your criteria, but I’m free to think you’re kind of an entitled dick for thinking you’re too good for women your own age and to expect much younger women to date you.

  81. I love that there’s a concerted effort going on here to explain to us that men who aren’t willing to date women close to their own age are not, in fact, douchebags. And their explanations are all based on how these guys have all these stereotypical views of “older” women, like that helps. Keep it up, guys!

  82. Katya: And their explanations are all based on how these guys have all these stereotypical views of “older” women, like that helps.

    Yep. And those “older” women are the same age as the guys spewing this bullshit.

  83. This is one that has always boggled my mind (and been a red flag, obviously). You put something in your profile that excludes someone from your list of potential mates (i.e. not interested in conservatives or vegans, whatever) and they feel the need to message you and tell you why your preference is wrong. And not-infrequently, they appear to be genuinely offended that you won’t accept them.

    Yeah, that’s the worst. The thing in my profile I get this for most frequently is my stated interest in casual sex. I get a surprising number of guys messaging me to say that I’m so pure and beautiful, etc., I shouldn’t be looking for casual sex. Or asking me if it’s a mistake that I have that listed, or telling me (with no indication of whether they’ve read my profile) that they won’t be that guy who wants to have sex with me (perish the thought!); they just want to be friends.

    Of course, when I actually engage these people (usually in the interest of troll-baiting or because I just can’t help but correct assholes on the internet, rather than because of actual interest), it becomes clear very, very quickly that they do just want to have sex with me, usually without so much as a drink or coffee as preliminary. One wonders why, then, they message me telling me the exact opposite of that, since I’ve stated on my profile that non-relationship sex is something I’m interested in. I guess they just don’t have the scripts for getting women into bed if the women actually say they want to be having sex. That and, I think I fall much more on the “madonna” side of people’s “madonna/whore” complexes, in terms of appearance, demeanor, personality insofar as it can be deduced from an OkC profile, etc. So people get all confused because actual women (actual people, really) are more complicated than their binary stereotypes.

    (Of course, the messages that are all “I have the afternoon off; want to come to my place 30 miles away from where you live and do it? Here’s my address”– and that is very close to a real message I’ve received– majorly freak me out, too, so I’m not saying I would respond better if people would just right out ask me to come have sex with them without any preliminaries to determine attraction, compatibility, etc. But if a woman says she likes casual sex, don’t tell her she’s lying).

  84. Also, regarding The Fountainhead, I was somewhat surprised that (in Chicago) there were a number of women on match who would list their political leanings as “liberal” and include the Fountainhead as one of their favorite books. While this wasn’t particularly common, I’d estimate that about 2% of the profiles I saw had that combination — which sounds low but many people don’t list favorite books, and of course there are millions of potential books to choose from. Also, these women’s profiles did not appear to reveal any other objectivist or libertarian leanings or say anything about Ayn Rand. May have been that they just came across the book and found it appealling (and without knowing about Rand’s broader work, the idea of lone individual fighting against conformity and attempts to control him likely would hold some interest for many liberals).

  85. Lots of good ones here, but one more that sends me running: when a guy feels the need to say in his profile that he’s not PC/he likes to tell non-PC jokes. That you tell those jokes sometimes is not necessarily a dealbreaker for me. That it’s so important to your identity that you feel the need to spell it out in a dating profile (usually with a warning not to bother messaging you if I’m “easily offended”) is definitely a dealbreaker.

  86. Sheelzebub: End of the day, you’re free to have your criteria, but I’m free to think you’re kind of an entitled dick for thinking you’re too good for women your own age and to expect much younger women to date you.

    Oh, I’m not saying these guys aren’t entitled asshats; I’m just saying they may be a different variation of entitled asshat than the one Jill identified. 😉

    Though to be fair, my last alternate example – the guy with limited dating experience looking for a level playing field on that front – strikes me as more of a guy with insecurities rather than one with a sense of entitlement.

  87. R. Dave: Maybe he’s just looking for casual sex and finds younger women more attractive.

    Yet that means that he thinks that women his own age are unattractive, while counting on younger women to find men his age attractive.

    How is that not misogynistic again?

  88. Jessica Isabel: A guy who wants to go straight from message to date, with not phone/Skype interlude in between.

    See, I won’t allow a guy to have my phone number until I’ve met him, so I’m all about the coffee date. I also have a throwaway email account that I do all my dating correspondence from, at least until I’ve decided I can trust them with my real email.

    The phone thing was a little difficult in terms of making last-minute arrangements (running late calls, etc.) until I got my iPhone, and now I can check my email instead of get to the coffee shop and find out the guy’s not there because he’s stuck somewhere.

    Esti: Lots of good ones here, but one more that sends me running: when a guy feels the need to say in his profile that he’s not PC/he likes to tell non-PC jokes. That you tell those jokes sometimes is not necessarily a dealbreaker for me. That it’s so important to your identity that you feel the need to spell it out in a dating profile (usually with a warning not to bother messaging you if I’m “easily offended”) is definitely a dealbreaker.

    You know what that usually tells me? HE’S NOT FUNNY. But he thinks he is, and he thinks people just don’t laugh at his jokes because he’s not PC. No, usually it means that you are full of fail as a comedian. The fact that you don’t understand that comedy has rules, and one of those rules is that when making jokes that involve a power differential you must understand that it is not funny when the person with more power makes jokes at the expense of the person with less power, means that you not only don’t get why your jokes fall flat, you’re an asshole about it.

    R. Dave: Though to be fair, my last alternate example – the guy with limited dating experience looking for a level playing field on that front – strikes me as more of a guy with insecurities rather than one with a sense of entitlement.

    It also strikes me as internally inconsistent — if young women are sought-after, don’t you think they’d have *more* dating experience than “older” (read: “THE SAME DAMN AGE AS THE GUY”) women?

  90. I think this article tries a little to hard to be all “I totally have no problem at all getting dates, but once (for fun only!) , I used this ‘online dating’ thing for a bit. And guess what, it ain’t so bad?!”.

    There are tons of people who don’t get endlessly hit on (most women in san francisco being one group) and who use online dating out of necessity. It’s annoying to see it belittled by someone who says they have no need for it.

  91. Wow, someone else still remembers that article from February. It’s pretty impressive, given all the world and political events that have occurred since then, it seems like a million years ago. I had almost lost it in the haze between the Egyptian and Libyan uprisings, and the Japanese earthquake. I remember pretty clearly now though, at the time everyone thought it was a joke.

    Bitter Scribe – turn on! Duh!

  92. Hobbes: Backwards baseball caps are worse, though.
    I dunno, they’re kinda hot on butch ladies 😉

    Seconding this. My gf in a backwards baseball cap…swoooooon.

    valentifan69: Also, because it sticks around once you’ve got it the older someone is the more likely they’ve got herpes – just saying.

    And…..what?!?!

  93. EG: What murder mystery series do you eagerly await the next book in? What writers crack you up in public on the subway? What books do you stay up at night finishing? If you claim that you are settling down every evening to read Dostoeyevsky or Thomas Mann or David Foster Wallace, I call bullshit.

    This is why I’m convinced that people need to lie. As a general matter we’re all fairly strange and boring. I’m pretty certain if I put down that I’m currently reading The History of Danish Law and a treatise on Proxy Statements for fun I would never get a date. And I don’t think many women would swoon over M’s love of Sgt Frog.

  94. zuzu: Yetthatmeansthathethinksthatwomenhisownageareunattractive,whilecountingonyoungerwomentofindmenhisageattractive.

    Howisthatnotmisogynisticagain?

    As a guy in my 20s on online dating, I almost *can’t* date women who are older than me – I would guess less than a fourth of the women 1 year older than me actually include my age in the “looking for” section. Even a fair number of women my own age don’t include my own age in their section.

    I wouldn’t want to be the 35 year old putting “25-35” as my range… but at the same time, I might put a balanced 21-28 at 24, yet can say with confidence the upper half of that range would be more likely to include the 35 year old in their “looking for” range than me. I’m sometimes tempted to restrict my searches to “younger than me to ” simply because it’s so uncommon that I run into an older woman actually willing to date my age (unless I extend my criteria into the “We’re in completely different stages of life” range)

    The situation certainly gets more absurd the older you go or the more a guys range doesn’t reflect his own age, but in a general sense, men putting down that they prefer younger women reflects the ranges a lot of younger women tend to put down.

  96. Jessica Isabel: DO NOT INVITE A FIRST DATE TO YOUR HOUSE. NO MATTER HOW NICE THEY SEEM.

    I had a guy over after many phone conversations, thinking he was cool. Turned out to be a total creep stalker, and called me for months afterwards threatening to rape me and kill my family. I still have nightmares about it.

    Holy crap.. sounds like what a situation of mine COULD have been.. instead this got really butt-hurt about the fact that I WOULDN’T invite him to my house after we had been so close (on the phone) and even after I cited that my kids protection was my highest priority (not his hurt feelings) he called me a cocktease and all manner of things and when I said ‘Okay, well effyoo then, sir, don’t call me anymore thanks’ he proceeded to do just that, numerous times. I don’t know what made him stop other than my repeated “I don’t want to talk to you” and subsequent hangup.

  97. You are a shame to women. You have taken these points to an extreme and delivered them illogically and dramatically.

    I don’t give a shit if the guy likes all black or white ‘culture’. Who cares what colour of skin the artist or entertainer has? What if it just so happens that all the people they enjoy are white? Does that mean he isn’t interested in culture? Does that mean he lacks taste? No. It’s just his personal preference, and that happens to be white people. Going out of your way to watch something just because a black person directed it is stupid. If you are genuinely interested in the movie, watch it, but not because of the director’s skin colour. It has no meaning. You’re putting worth into the skin colour. I know you’re trying to say, “have diverse taste”, but you’re just it in a ‘positive racist’ way, which is the exact ‘red flag’ you hate.

    Develop some logic before posting to the internet. You make us look like fools.

  98. R. Dave: Though to be fair, my last alternate example – the guy with limited dating experience looking for a level playing field on that front – strikes me as more of a guy with insecurities rather than one with a sense of entitlement.

    That can backfire too.. I dated a guy who was about eight years old than me, but had only really started dating in his mid-20s.. a real late-bloomer. I was in my mid-20s by the time we had met and had already been married, separated and had a couple affairs afterwards so I was light years ahead, despite the age gap.

  99. Calderon:
    Also, regarding The Fountainhead, I was somewhat surprised that (in Chicago) there were a number of women on match who would list their political leanings as “liberal” and include the Fountainhead as one of their favorite books. While this wasn’t particularly common, I’d estimate that about 2% of the profiles I saw had that combination — which sounds low but many people don’t list favorite books, and of course there are millions of potential books to choose from. Also, these women’s profiles did not appear to reveal any other objectivist or libertarian leanings or say anything about Ayn Rand. May have been that they just came across the book and found it appealling (and without knowing about Rand’s broader work, the idea of lone individual fighting against conformity and attempts to control him likely would hold some interest for many liberals).

    If I were on a dating site, The Fountainhead would have, at some point, been on my list of favorite books. Partially because I wasn’t reading it right (you mean ALL charity work is bad, Ayn Rand??), and partially because it was just so rare to have a book written by an out and out woman atheist. The rape scenes, I was never cool with. But architecture? Refusal to conform? Blowing shit up? Being comfortable and confident in who you are? Not doing something just so you’ll be praised and people will think you’re great? All seemed like awesome messages. Ironically, I took the “my rights begin where your rights end” message from the book.

    Like I said, read it wrong…

  100. Kristen J.: I’m pretty certain if I put down that I’m currently reading The History of Danish Law and a treatise on Proxy Statements for fun I would never get a date. And I don’t think many women would swoon over M’s love of Sgt Frog.

    I would totally find someone who was reading The History of Danish Law for fun to be interesting and memorable, at least! My eyes wouldn’t glaze over as I read yet one more claim that somebody is kicking back with his favorite book, The Brothers Karamazov. No, you are not, sir. You are not. Even worse are Salinger and Steinbeck, who are both pretentious and crappy and ubiquitous.

    The History of Danish Law would be far more intriguing. Why Danish law? What’s unusual about it? How far back does this history go?

  101. One thing I wish guys with kids wouldn’t do, and not because it’s a dealbreaker, but because it’s just not that friggin’ smart, is post pictures of themselves with their kids (and if women do this too, please stop). Although most people on dating sites are probably okay, there are weirdos out there too.

    Although in one story a guy putting a pic of his kid saved me some time and effort. I looked at this profile and thought ‘hmm cute’ and went in for a closer look and checked out his other pics. There was a pic of him and his daughter.. who happened to be my daughter’s stepsister. Aww hell no. Having heard plenty from the ex-hubs current-wife, I knew enough to skip that one. Bloody small towns, eh?

    1. I think this article tries a little to hard to be all “I totally have no problem at all getting dates, but once (for fun only!) , I used this ‘online dating’ thing for a bit. And guess what, it ain’t so bad?!”.

      There are tons of people who don’t get endlessly hit on (most women in san francisco being one group) and who use online dating out of necessity. It’s annoying to see it belittled by someone who says they have no need for it.

      Huh? I wasn’t belittling it. I tried it for two years — I’m still on OKCupid. And yes, I had some negative views of online dating before I started. That isn’t “trying hard,” it’s saying what my perspective actually was. And look, it’s not like I’ve been dating up a storm, but yeah, it wasn’t that getting a date was impossible (I was 26 when I started online dating and living in NY, so, not the hardest position to be in). It was that I just hadn’t met anyone I really liked. And maybe some people don’t relate to that experience or perspective, or think it’s trying to hard? But I was just trying to contextualize my stint online.

      I’m not sure how you get “belittling” from the article. I did admit my negative views on the front end, but those shifted once I actually tried it. I don’t think admitting that is belittling. And I don’t think saying that I also date in a not-online context insults women who primarily date online. (Also, for the record, I definitely do not get endlessly hit on. I go months and months without dating, and I haven’t been in a relationship in three years. So.).

  102. I dunno, EG. I’m reading Proust right now for fun. My favorite book is legitly Thomas Mann’s “The Magic Mountain, so I kind of laughed at myself a little when I read your earlier post. Yes, very nerdy. But I also usually mention in my profiles that I love Dune and The Lord of the Rings too. But most of my favorite books, like Mann’s stuff, as well as Mrs. Dalloway and even Ulysses come out of modernism. Though even as a big fan of modernism, I can certainly see why one could find it inconceivable that people might read modernist literature for fun.

    Though I understand where you’re coming from. If a person’s reading list is completely lacking in anything except the cannon of literary classics it’s probably worthy of a raised eyebrow.

    @Jessica Isabel (81): That’s kind of weird, I actually find it really awkward to call or skype with someone before meeting them. I like to set up the first meeting in emails. Though usually I’ll give them my phone number to call me if something comes up (for example, they decide to flake at the last minute, argh). Which brings up another red flag: last minute cancellations. Online dating seems to be lousy with them. I suspect it’s usually people who have a last minute, “omg, the internet is scary moment”, which I don’t have time for these days.

    My red flag, “You could say my music taste is eclectic. I pretty much love everything except rap and country.” I swear, I see this in about 75% of all profiles.

  103. I don’t do online dating, but I think a red flag would be liking Adam Sandler. Sports teams too. I like the Olympics, but I hate all other sporting events- also, sports fans tend to be jackasses.
    Thankfully, guys don’t find women over 25 attractive, so there’s no reason to even try anymore.

    1. Thankfully, guys don’t find women over 25 attractive, so there’s no reason to even try anymore.

      Haha oh man. Too bad the average age of marriage in the US is higher than that?

  105. @82 Sheelzebub

    you’re free to have your criteria, but I’m free to think you’re kind of an entitled dick for thinking you’re too good for women your own age and to expect much younger women to date you.

    I don’t think desiring to date only younger women is a form of entitlement. Entitlement is demanding that the world give you the younger women that are so rightfully yours by virture of your dudeness/social status/etc. Big difference no?

    @Zuzu

    Yet that means that he thinks that women his own age are unattractive, while counting on younger women to find men his age attractive.

    How is that not misogynistic again?

    Are women who only date taller men a bunch of misandrists? I also remember a post on Feministing where a fat woman was confiding in her sexual attraction to thin men and sharing her struggle with aligning her politics with her sexuality. Was that woman entitled and man-hating? Nope. Does the world owe her a thin mate? Nope. Should she count on lots of thin men responding to her positively? Probably not, but that shouldn’t stop her from seeking happiness like everyone else. Same with our youth-seeking balding guy.

    But the bigger point is that your sexuality and your politics are two separate entities. You should examine your desires for sure, but also accept that they may fall short of your ideals. I think we can agree that being a feminist doesn’t mandate that you date shorter men if shorter men don’t do it for you. Or older men your age, or whoever.

  106. Politicalguineapig: sports fans tend to be jackasses.
    Thankfully, guys don’t find women over 25 attractive, so there’s no reason to even try anymore.

    Is it possible for you to get through a thread without making some grand generalization?

  107. I signed up for OKC last week and had my first date this week.

    My official review is as such: “It’s meh.” I have a couple OKC stalkers, so I hate going on for too long. I haven’t been great at the whole “not talking to strangers you don’t want to fuck” thing, but that’s because part of me would love to make friends with people in the area too.

    I will say one winner told me about the girls he met on OKC, one of whom he “titty-fucked” in Central Park on the first date, and two who had anal with him on the first date. I hope they liked it, because if it was a “stay with me foreverrr” tactic, it doesn’t seem to have worked. Because he’s a dick.

    Question for boobed-women – I REALLY don’t get the boob sex thing. Does anyone like this? If so, what do you like about it?

  109. @32 EG

    Nobody spends the bulk of their leisure-time reading with Ulysses, Lolita, and Moby Dick

    You know, sometimes people really really do enjoy pretentious books. I couldn’t negotiate my way thru a James Joyce novel save my life, but I could eat up Moby Dick with a spoon (yum). Just sayin’

  110. There are tons of people who don’t get endlessly hit on (most women in san francisco being one group) and who use online dating out of necessity. It’s annoying to see it belittled by someone who says they have no need for it.

    *blink*

    Nice dash of homophobic reasoning you got going there.

  111. Jenn: You are a shame to women. You have taken these points to an extreme and delivered them illogically and dramatically.

    I don’t give a shit if the guy likes all black or white ‘culture’. Who cares what colour of skin the artist or entertainer has? What if it just so happens that all the people they enjoy are white? Does that mean he isn’t interested in culture? Does that mean he lacks taste? No. It’s just his personal preference, and that happens to be white people. Going out of your way to watch something just because a black person directed it is stupid. If you are genuinely interested in the movie, watch it, but not because of the director’s skin colour. It has no meaning. You’re putting worth into the skin colour. I know you’re trying to say, “have diverse taste”, but you’re just it in a ‘positive racist’ way, which is the exact ‘red flag’ you hate.

    Develop some logic before posting to the internet. You make us look like fools.

    Yeah, Jill, develop some logic. When white people only like other white people it’s not because of racism.

    Also, you are a shame to all women. Everywhere. Because of a post about online dating.

  112. Mark: About men of a certain age not wanting to date women their own age: I was one of them (“was” because I quit the online dating scene about a year ago). There are reasons for this that don’t have anything to do with with strength, power or equality. Some of us men have had the experience of dating women in their late 30′s that are, well, baby crazy. Too many of them are looking for a sperm donor, not a partner. Sorry if that’s rude but it was my experience, and it wasn’t a whole lot of fun. The age parameters I wound up with had much more to do with wanting to avoid those situations than wanting to avoid strong women. Just sayin’.

    Um, no. Western women who want to have babies get artifical insemination. It’s super affordable these days, especially in the UK: £500! IIRC, it’s half that in the U.S.

    I think I am going to add “baby crazy” to my list of red flags. It really means “I’m afraid of commitment because I have a Peter Pan complex.” If you’re a woman who shares the culture’s belief in monogamy, then you’ll eventually be branded as “baby crazy” by Baby Crazy Guy.

    On a more serious note, I think this belief comes from taking movie tropes and about women literally. Men really have to start being a bit more honest with themselves before they start dating.

  113. jrockford: Though I understand where you’re coming from. If a person’s reading list is completely lacking in anything except the cannon of literary classics it’s probably worthy of a raised eyebrow.

    That’s exactly what I mean. I love Ulysses. I’ve read it 3 times, and I teach To the Lighthouse (I just couldn’t get into Mrs. Dalloway, dunno why). It’s not the presence of those–it’s the complete absence of anything else! Like…really? You never pick up a murder mystery or a trashy thriller or anything? That always just reads to me like somebody’s trying too hard to sound highbrow. Like, I get that many people–not me, but many people–like Jean-Luc Godard’s movies and other Nouvelle Vague stuff, and some people even like Fassbinder. But if that’s all you list when it comes to movies, if you can’t appreciate anything less po-faced at all…I’m not even a little bit interested.

    Also, if you only like dead writers, I’m not that impressed either. And you have to like some music that’s still being made by living people.

    An ex-boyfriend of mine got my attention by writing in his profile “if you say you are looking for a ‘partner or crime’ or that you’re a ‘bit mad’ [I was living in London at the time, so it was the equivalent of “kind of crazy,” and every single person had it on every single profile], please move along. There’s nothing for you here.”

    ArielNYC: Are women who only date taller men a bunch of misandrists? I also remember a post on Feministing where a fat woman was confiding in her sexual attraction to thin men and sharing her struggle with aligning her politics with her sexuality. Was that woman entitled and man-hating? Nope. Does the world owe her a thin mate? Nope. Should she count on lots of thin men responding to her positively? Probably not, but that shouldn’t stop her from seeking happiness like everyone else. Same with our youth-seeking balding guy.

    Are short men or fat men constantly bombarded with messages that no woman could ever possibly want them? Are they the target of major, multi-million dollar ad campaigns dedicated to helping them “fix” the signs of their shortness or fatness? Are they told that their self-worth depends on being able to attract women, which they won’t be able to do, because of being short or fat? Does being short or fat disadvantage them within the relationship when it comes to career, decision-making, experience? No? Then the two situations really aren’t comparable, are they?

    ArielNYC: You know, sometimes people really really do enjoy pretentious books.

    Yes, I like many of them as well. But that’s not all I like, and if it’s all someone likes, and he can’t mix it up a bit, that reads to me as being a pretentious poseur without a sense of humor.

  114. Politicalguineapig: Thankfully, guys don’t find women over 25 attractive, so there’s no reason to even try anymore.

    Damn. Every single man I’ve fucked over the past ten years has been faking it. If only I had known…I was totally fooled by their erections.

  115. Jenn: You are a shame to women.

    Darn, does this mean I know have to mourn Jill? She has shamed us, is it like with Klingons, does she get to fight to regain her honor or is it like Vulcans and now we pretend shes not in the room?

    Jenn: Develop some logic before posting to the internet. You make us look like fools.

    Right back at ‘cha.

  117. Caisara: I think I am going to add “baby crazy” to my list of red flags. It really means “I’m afraid of commitment because I have a Peter Pan complex.” If you’re a woman who shares the culture’s belief in monogamy, then you’ll eventually be branded as “baby crazy” by Baby Crazy Guy.

    Seriously. I also like that it doesn’t occur to Mark to, y’know, mention in his profile that he’s not interested in having babies any time soon, if at all. Nope, can’t trust those baby-crazy ladies to be able to read! They’re just waiting to trap innocent men into motherhood! A dude’s got no choice but to go for the younger chicks. Pity the poor dudes!

  118. EG @ #32: I have met exactly one person who does spend their leisure time reading that sort of thing. (Well, not Ulysses, he hates Joyce.) But he is a very strange fellow, and the exception to a rule I generally agree with. I’d call BS if I wasn’t living with him.

    On the OP, as a list of red flags, that’s a pretty excellent one. And yeah, it is unambiguously creepy if a dude refuses to date within his own age. Preferences are one thing, but so is context.

  119. @EG

    Are short men or fat men constantly bombarded with messages that no woman could ever possibly want them?

    I guess in your world Fat Bastard is a lothario action hero? And Danny Devito regularly stars as the heartthrobe in romantic comedies rather than as a bird-like freak in a Batman movie or human genetic refuse in Twins? Oh and what are we to think of Captain America before he gets nuked up into a Real Man? Your question is not necessarily as rhetorical as you may think it is.
    But anyways, study after study shows that in the real world women do discriminate heavily against short men. Is that becaue of popular media? Beats me. But I do know I’m not going to change my sexual preferences, because I can’t. And I’m not holding my breath for women to do so either.

    if it’s all someone likes, and he can’t mix it up a bit, that reads to me as being a pretentious poseur without a sense of humor.

    Fair enough. I just know that in my case it’s more efficient for me to get my dumb entertainment from movies and tv rather than books.

  120. ArielNYC: I guess in your world Fat Bastard is a lothario action hero? And Danny Devito regularly stars as the heartthrobe in romantic comedies rather than as a bird-like freak in a Batman movie or human genetic refuse in Twins? Oh and what are we to think of Captain America before he gets nuked up into a Real Man? Your question is not necessarily as rhetorical as you may think it is.

    Are you seriously contending that men face looks- and worth-related pressure about their height and weight at anywhere near the levels that women face about their age?

    Never mind the fact that the stigma against fatness is hardly limited to men; in fact, I would put down cash money on the barrel to bet that the level of fat stigma directed at women is far worse than that directed at men.

  121. ArielNYC: Are women who only date taller men a bunch of misandrists?

    Oh, pumpkin, your choice of words gives away your game.

    Given that women, on average, are shorter than men, on average, it’s actually not really that difficult for most women to date men who are taller than they are. But I can assure you, as a tall woman, I have seen plenty of very tall men express a preference for very short women, and I have also seen shorter men who are either weirded out that I’m taller than they are or who fetishize my height. And I’m not even all that tall.

    But to get back to Jill’s point: if you have a problem with women who will only date taller men, or men over a specified height, and who express that in their profiles, you are more than welcome to consider that your own personal red flag.

    I also remember a post on Feministing where a fat woman was confiding in her sexual attraction to thin men and sharing her struggle with aligning her politics with her sexuality. Was that woman entitled and man-hating? Nope. Does the world owe her a thin mate? Nope. Should she count on lots of thin men responding to her positively? Probably not, but that shouldn’t stop her from seeking happiness like everyone else. Same with our youth-seeking balding guy.

    Um, you do realize that body type is not the same thing as age, right? Also, that there are plenty of fat men who only want thin women and thin men who prefer fat women. I expect the politics of this person had to do with fat acceptance activism, and therefore her own sexual preferences created a tension with her espoused views. Kinda like a guy who espouses feminism but also only wants to date women younger than himself and justifies it with some evo-psycho bullshit.

  122. Well damn. My expiration date about three years past due then. But wait… I’m not the right kind of female [black and married], so I’m out of luck anyway. Do you think that maybe I should still cast my net anyway? You know, to reassure myself I still *got it*?

  124. EG: I have, actually read Lolita. And Salinger, but only because I tend to encounter his books when riffling through bookshelves while abominably bored. I’ve read Louisa Alcott too, way more times than I should have. I even tried Ayn Rand once: anyone who can actually plow through those tomes gets my respect for the effort they must have put in.
    I think I would possibly plough through Moby Dick, if I was bored enough. Hell, you’ve just given me my winter reading list. 😀

  125. The last time I tried to meet someone this way (or at least a prior version of this way) was when I put a personal ad in the July 21, 1986 issue of New York Magazine. It’s how I met my former spouse. That didn’t work out too well in the end, so I’m dubious about trying again, especially since I haven’t been on what I’d call a “date” with someone I don’t know *since* 1986! (The relationship I was in for a number of years after my marriage ended was with someone who was already a friend.)

    Daisy: I do get the 60+ year olds… you know, my father’s peers.

    I empathize. With rare exceptions, the only men who ever hit on me, now that I’m over 50, are closer to *my* father’s age than to mine. And my instinctive reaction to men that age is still to think not even of my father but of my grandfather.

    It’s a good thing, I suppose, that I don’t find men particularly attractive, and that I find the thought of actually being in a relationship with one even less appealing. (After all, I lived and walked among them for a long time. I know their secrets.)

    Whether one is interested in men or women or both, however, I’ve heard enough stories (having been a moderator for years now on a trans message board) to know that there are few things more depressing than the online (or offline, for that matter) prospects of an middle-aged trans woman trying to meet someone. (Oppression Olympics! We win, at least in the world of dating!) It’s hard enough for cis women my age. But whether you disclose ahead of time (insuring zero responses unless you’re looking for an “admirer” in the M4T section of Craigslist, in which case you’d better not have had GRS), or wait until you’ve met someone before you disclose (for the most part insuring an awkward rejection), it’s all pretty dismal. Not that I’ve tried personally — it isn’t really worth it to me to put myself through that — but I know a number of trans women around my age who have, and have been almost universally rejected by women as much as men, although with women the risk of being beaten up or murdered upon disclosure (if you don’t do it in advance, which nobody should be obligated to do) is obviously considerably less.

    Of course, I pretty much knew all this going in, and that being much more attractive the way I am now (or so I’ve been told, left handed compliment that it is!) would be entirely irrelevant. So I don’t spend a lot of time complaining about the situation; for the most part, it’s only threads like this, and articles that talk about what an advantage women supposedly have with online dating, that make me think about it. Apologies for the derail, if that’s what it is.

    Besides, the bright side is that I have all that extra time to stay home and read Dostoevsky! Actually, that would never happen. (Anti-Semite and writer of disguised polemics that he was, not that I cared so much about that when I read him in 7th and 8th grade to try to impress certain people.) And I haven’t read Ulysses or War and Peace in more than 30 years, as wonderful as I thought both of them were. Although I can only imagine how unspeakably weird people would think I was if I told the truth in a personal ad (do they still call them that? profile?) and said that the last two novels I read were Vasily Grossman’s “Life and Fate” and Hans Fallada’s “Alone in Berlin.” Not for fun, exactly, but that isn’t always what I’m looking for. Or that right now I’m immersed in S.D. Goitein’s 5-volume “A Mediterranean Society: The Jewish Communities of the World [in the 11th-13th centuries C.E.] as Portrayed in the Documents of the Cairo Geniza.” Why? Because it’s fascinating. Then again, the last six books I read most recently before all that were historical mysteries set in Ancient Rome, Henrician England, Elizabethan England, 1919 Berlin (the Spartacists), 1941 Prague, and 1806 East Prussia under French occupation, respectively. More exciting than my life, certainly. And I don’t have to care what anyone thinks.

  126. DonnaL: Or that right now I’m immersed in S.D. Goitein’s 5-volume “A Mediterranean Society: The Jewish Communities of the World [in the 11th-13th centuries C.E.] as Portrayed in the Documents of the Cairo Geniza.” Why? Because it’s fascinating. Then again, the last six books I read most recently before all that were historical mysteries set in Ancient Rome, Henrician England, Elizabethan England, 1919 Berlin (the Spartacists), 1941 Prague, and 1806 East Prussia under French occupation, respectively. More exciting than my life, certainly. And I don’t have to care what anyone thinks.

    You are awesome. See, that’s interesting and actually tells me something about you as a person!

    Cismen and ciswomen your age are missing out, is all I can say.

    For my part, I just finished reading a history of the 1888 London matchgirls’ strike and am beginning the latest SJ Rozan mystery. Are your Ancient Rome mysteries the ones written by Steven Saylor? They’re some of my favorites.

  127. @EG

    Are you seriously contending that men face looks- and worth-related pressure about their height and weight at anywhere near the levels that women face about their age?

    Hmm isn’t that shifting the goalposts a bit? Your originial contention was that fat/short men don’t get inundated with negative social messages about their unattractiveness. I don’t disagree that women face more pressure to buy products and services to fit a particular ideal.
    Anyways my original argument was that we all discriminate sexually and that you can’t subject your sexuality to your politics. I think the best you can do is examine your prerences and try be as open-minded as possible. And I’ll add that it’s probably impossible to weigh your individual sexual choice against the sexual externalities it creates. If you prefer conventionally-atttractive women, and other hetero men also prefer conventionally-attractive women, what is the right thing do? Date women you prefer less out of social duty not to hurt socially-disadvantaged women and make them more susceptible to predatory marketing, negative body image, etc? What is your suggested alternative?

  128. ArielNYC: But anyways, study after study shows that in the real world women do discriminate heavily against short men. Is that becaue of popular media? Beats me. But I do know I’m not going to change my sexual preferences, because I can’t. And I’m not holding my breath for women to do so either.

    I have an idea for you: you could always transition. How do you think I got taller? As a 5’2″ guy, I was always in the bottom 5% of all the height charts. Now, by magic, I’m almost average. Presto! Besides, finding clothing that fits is *much* easier. (As I’ve said before, I never actually wore men’s clothing in my entire life. And it can be a little embarrassing to shop in the boys’ department when you’re over 30.)

    Seriously, I hope you’re not actually 5’6″ or 5’7″. Because, to me, that’s not so short. I always used to wish I could be that tall. In any event, you’re right that you won’t find that many women specifically seeking out guys who are considerably shorter than they are. And you’re right that “short” is never, ever thought of as positive or desirable attribute for men in this culture or any other that I’m aware of. I think some of the people here underestimate how difficult things can sometimes be for short men, especially when you’re as *extremely* short as I was — more so in other areas of life than romantically, to be honest. But no matter how short a guy is, generally speaking, there are always *plenty* of women who are shorter. Even I, when I made the effort — and being trans had way more to do with the fact that I didn’t start dating until I was 26 than being short — was able to find women who were interested in going out with me. Maybe it wasn’t me they were interested in, but all my Ivy League degrees and my earning potential (not that that every amounted to anything!). But I’m not quite that much of a cynic, and was never as bitter as you seem to be, and far preferred to give credit both to the women who were interested in me and to myself, and to think I had something to offer them as a human being, even in my former incarnation.

  129. EG: Are your Ancient Rome mysteries the ones written by Steven Saylor? They’re some of my favorites.

    Yes. I think I’ve read all of them now, all in the last year or so. There’s a new one coming out in a few months — it takes place when Gordianus is young, and, I think, involves his visiting the 7 Wonders of the Ancient World and encountering a mystery at each.

    By the way, I knew that Saylor is gay (it’s somewhat evident in the books), but I had no idea, until my son told me, that he got his start writing gay erotic fiction.

  130. ArielNYC: Hmm isn’t that shifting the goalposts a bit? Your originial contention was that fat/short men don’t get inundated with negative social messages about their unattractiveness.

    No, not really. By using extreme language (“inundated”), I was specifically referring to the experience of women in our society regarding our looks and worth as we age.

    ArielNYC: What is your suggested alternative?

    I support Jill’s suggestion: please be sure to list such preferences so I know to avoid men who think that my attractiveness drops off a cliff when I reach their age.

  131. DonnaL: Yes. I think I’ve read all of them now, all in the last year or so. There’s a new one coming out in a few months — it takes place when Gordianus is young, and, I think, involves his visiting the 7 Wonders of the Ancient World and encountering a mystery at each.

    Oh, I’m excited to hear that! I think he lost his usually admirable form a bit in the most recent one–well before any sort of motive was revealed, the identity of the killer seemed evident because (s)he kept showing up, and would have had no reason for being in the novel unless (s)he was the killer.

    I’ve been a bit concerned about the future of the series, actually, as Gordianus can’t go on forever, and he’s already at an advanced age; but surely Saylor won’t be able to turn away from writing a murder mystery set during the confusion and fear following Caesar’s assassination? I like Diana; I think she could take over the family business, though isn’t one of his sons also an investigator?

    I didn’t know that Saylor was gay, let alone that he got his start writing gay erotica.

    Did you read his marvelous essay on the otherwise great TV show Rome‘s decision to portray Cleopatra as a drug-addled, promiscuous idiot? I do love his portrayal of Cleopatra, and Antony saying that she reminds him of a young Julius Caesar. Not only do I think it’s wonderfully accurate, but it adds a whole new dimension to Antony’s relationship with Caesar as well. Anyway, if you haven’t read it, the essay is linked to on his website, I think.

  132. @Zuzu

    “Given that women, on average, are shorter than men, on average, it’s actually not really that difficult for most women to date men who are taller than they are.”

    As I remember researchers were excited to find some tribe in Eastern Africa where there was no correlation between the height of married men and women in contrast with the western world. Secondly, if I were to say that I don’t need to date other races because I can easily date within my own race, you would rightfully find it offensive. And no, I’m not comparing heightism to racism. I’m just saying that just because something is easy doesn’t mean it’s not a choice with social repercussions that can be examined.
    http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=123853&page=2

    “But I can assure you, as a tall woman, I have seen plenty of very tall men express a preference for very short women, and I have also seen shorter men who are either weirded out that I’m taller than they are or who fetishize my height. And I’m not even all that tall.”

    From my own experiences, when

  133. Oh, and EG, I meant to add — and would have if I could edit my comments here! — a thank you for the kind words.

  134. While I object to the elision of “thin” and “fit,” if a guy says he’s looking for a woman who’s “fit,” I understand what that means but also understand that he’s not a “no fat chicks” kind of asshole.

    Ummm, no actually, I think he’s a bigger asshole than the guy who just says “no fat chicks”. The elision of thin and fit is kind of the whole point, the idea that what should just be an aesthetic aspect gets turned into a measure of worth.

    Not to mention that for some of us, actually being fit matters! Because there’s all kinds of fun stuff to do with your date that doesn’t require you to be thin but does require you to be fit, like: hiking, mountain climbing, one-on-one basketball, kinky nude wrestling… Groggette has an awesome post up right now on all the different things fit can be.

    As for the whole question about highbrow literary interests: I can totally see dudes reading Nabokov and Pynchon for fun. It’s all about the fetishes baby! Nabokov: pedophilia (Lolita) and brother-sister incest (Ada). Pynchon: Gravity’s Rainbow has pretty much the whole rainbow of kink, from shit-eating to public orgies to cross-dressing to whipping to spanking a little girl with a ruler to role-play based on the Brothers Grimm…well worth reading…

    “Fountainhead” gets in on that action too. Maybe the liberal women who like it just think the rape scenes are hot.

    (probably not the real reason why people post that they like those books, but wouldn’t it be awesome if more people admitted that it’s the real reason why they like ’em?)

    Also, the comment about “no crazies” definitely indicates misogynistic attitudes – the guy who thinks every woman is crazy, a bitch, or PMSing when she freely expresses herself! No thanks.

    Well, I actually AM a crazy, that is I’ve been officially diagnosed with various conflicting crap, so for me anybody of any gender who says “no crazies”, “no psychos”, or the various annoying variations of “quirky but not TOO out there” is an immediate no for me, as in “can’t let this person know where I live because they may try to hospitalize me.”

    One more note on the subject of kink, another turn-off: gender-essentialist hetero male doms. You know, the ones who say they’re a “real man” looking for a “real woman”. Double retch.

  135. @Zuzu

    “Given that women, on average, are shorter than men, on average, it’s actually not really that difficult for most women to date men who are taller than they are.”

    As I remember researchers were excited to find some tribe in Eastern Africa where there was no correlation between the height of married men and women in contrast with the western world. Secondly, if I were to say that I don’t need to date other races because I can easily date within my own race, you would rightfully find it offensive. And no, I’m not comparing heightism to racism. I’m just saying that just because something is easy doesn’t mean it’s not a choice with social repercussions that can be examined.
    http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=123853&page=2

    “But I can assure you, as a tall woman, I have seen plenty of very tall men express a preference for very short women, and I have also seen shorter men who are either weirded out that I’m taller than they are or who fetishize my height. And I’m not even all that tall.”

    From my own experiences, when I went on dates with taller women I felt judged, and my anxiety was derived from that.

    “if you have a problem with women who will only date taller men, or men over a specified height, and who express that in their profiles, you are more than welcome to consider that your own personal red flag.”

    1. I don’t 2. Most profiles I’ve seen, and granted they were filtered thru my preferences, did speciy a desire for taller men. I don’t think these women are undateable on that account.

    Kinda like a guy who espouses feminism but also only wants to date women younger than himself and justifies it with some evo-psycho bullshit.

    Putting evo-psycho aside, which probably is garbage, I do think it’s an interesting question of what authentic, feminist sexuality is, and how one should go about reconciling his or her stubborn desires with it

  136. ArielNYC: From my own experiences, when I went on dates with taller women I felt judged, and my anxiety was derived from that.

    Hey, guess what? Women who are taller than the men they’re with feel judged, too! Because women are supposed to be petite, and thin, and delicate, yadda yadda.

    There’s enough gender essentialist bullshit to go around. Why the fuck you can’t seem to wrap your mind around the idea that someone who *doesn’t* want to go along with the gender essentialist bullshit in their own personal intimate relationships might want to not even consider people who are up-front about their embrace of such gender essentialist bullshit is beyond me. It’s a good thing, when people give you handy methods of filtering them.

    ArielNYC: Most profiles I’ve seen, and granted they were filtered thru my preferences, did speciy a desire for taller men. I don’t think these women are undateable on that account.

    So, wait, you pursue women who express a preference for tall men, and then you feel judged when you’re with them? Maybe you should take the hint, then, and not date women who express such a preference.

  138. @zuzu

    So, wait, you pursue women who express a preference for tall men, and then you feel judged when you’re with them?

    No. Preferences as in women whose pics are appealing to me.

    Anyways, I wonder why you think men lie about their height online, the way women lie about their age.

  139. I’ve generally enjoyed my last couple of months on OkCupid. Some interesting times.

    I don’t really understand the aversion to shirtless pictures and see it as a red flag myself (it comes up fairly often on women’s profiles). Why would you not want to see a potential sexual partner half-naked?

    One night was spent with a woman I was going to meet trying to find another woman for a threesome. Didn’t work out, but hey worth a shot.

    I got this message today from a woman I’ve messaged a few times over the last few days: You’re a good lookin’ lad, and you can spell – why are you single?

    That woman’s previous message asked if I had an “adequately sized penis”.

    A woman used the IM function, which I’d never seen before, to ask with some trepidation what “sex-positive” was. After explaining that it was largely, but not only, a feminist term a message came up saying she’d logged out of the IM.

  140. Calderon:
    Briansaid:

    You had a lot more success than I did. When I (middle-aged white guy in Chicago) was on match.com, I had a about a 4% success ratio

    Most of those people never recieved your messages! If you are going to use Match.com, please understand their business model! 95% of profiles are just people who signed up for the free trial! they get an alert saying something like, “Someone messaged you! Pay us $80 and you can read it!” That is why those site suck so much unless you are looking for a spouse.

  141. EG: Are short men or fat men constantly bombarded with messages that no woman could ever possibly want them?

    Umm, yes?

  142. God, that article you were linked to in response makes marriage sound really awful. .I don’t know what the author was trying to achieve with it but mostly all she succeeded in doing is making me think her married life really sucks and she’s angry about it.

  143. @R Dave

    There’s an enormous difference between “mostly dates younger women”, and “only interested in dating younger women”. Even if it’s fitness/attraction/dating experience/whatnot, some equally aged, or more aged women are still going to match.

    When I was on OkCupid, I was a 28 year old Ph.D. student, which meant I was still in the student lifestyle socially/economically, while most women my age weren’t. I listed my interest age range as 22-33 (IIRC), although in practice I mostly messaged women younger than I was – because in general, they were in comparable life positions – other students, or people who’d just started working generally matched up to me, while a 33 year old woman who’d been working for 12 years was far less likely to have anything in common with me (and whenever I did message older women, they tended to be incomparable positions – e.g., there was one 30 year old nursing student I flirted with a lot – her status as a student put us in comparable positions, so who gives a shit if she’s 30?). The difference between “mostly interested in younger women” and “entirely interested in younger women” is enormous.

  145. ArielNYC: Anyways, I wonder why you think men lie about their height online, the way women lie about their age.

    I believe that it’s far more common for women to lie about their weight, which always struck me as somewhat more rational than lying about one’s height, because in my experience, no man has the faintest idea what a woman ways. Whereas when a man lies about his height, I can tell when I meet him. I have no idea why men do this. No, dude, you’re not 5’9″. You know how I can tell? I can tell because I am 5’8″, and you are shorter than me. I prefer men to be shorter, by and large, but I do not prefer men to think I’m a stone idiot.

  146. Question for boobed-women – I REALLY don’t get the boob sex thing. Does anyone like this? If so, what do you like about it?

    Well, it’s kind of like an ultra-lazy hand job. Like, if your partner just got you off and you want to do the same but you’re like “AAAAH carpal tunnel,” you can just lie back, hold your boobs together, and still get your partner off. It is very convenient, and you can look at your partner the whole time without craning your neck. Also, if you have sensitive breasts, then it feels kind of good at the same time. Certainly better than it does to give a hand job that takes too long or requires too much vigor.

  147. i was reminded of this OKcupid piece:

    “men tend to focus on the youngest women in their already skewed preference pool, and, what’s more, they spend athe median 30 year-old man spends as much time messaging teenage girls as he does women his own age significant amount of energy pursuing women even younger than their stated minimum. No matter what he’s telling himself on his setting page, a 30 year-old man spends as much time messaging 18 and 19 year-olds as he does women his own age. On the other hand, women only a few years older are largely neglected…[yet] If you separate out the absolute best-looking women, almost all of whom are very young, and also remove the people you won’t realistically want to date (the worst-looking women), you find that everyone else’s attractiveness doesn’t change much with age”
    http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-case-for-an-older-woman/

    So yes, men are even worse than what Jill sees on their profiles. I do agree with some of the points that Hugo Schwyzer makes on this issu: Men want to feel like they’ve still got it, they are really all that and a bag of chips, they want the world to know that, etc. And more genereally speaking, we all want fun, excitement, and glamor, and we prefer fantasy over reality.

  148. Dank: Umm,yes?

    In my experience as a content-rich man, I wouldn’t say I’m “bombarded.” It’s far more rare that the message is made explicit than it is for women.

  149. EG @104

    My eyes wouldn’t glaze over as I read yet one more claim that somebody is kicking back with his favorite book, The Brothers Karamazov. No, you are not, sir. You are not. ….

    I don’t know about favorite, but it was within the last year that I was, indeed, “kicking back” with The Brothers Karamazov.

    And War and Peace is my current bedtime and bathroom read.

  150. Mark: About men of a certain age not wanting to date women their own age: I was one of them (“was” because I quit the online dating scene about a year ago). There are reasons for this that don’t have anything to do with with strength, power or equality. Some of us men have had the experience of dating women in their late 30′s that are, well, baby crazy. Too many of them are looking for a sperm donor, not a partner.

    Oddly enough, one reason why I hear that so many 30- and 40-something (and older) men refuse to consider their age is because younger women are better breeding candidates. Baby crazy! It’s not just for women.

    Though I still did get messaged by dudes who wanted to know why I didn’t want children and maybe I’d change my mind.

    ArielNYC: Anyways, I wonder why you think men lie about their height online, the way women lie about their age.

    Um, a lot of men lie about their age online too.

    Here’s another gripe: Use a recent photo. By recent, I do not mean circa 1984, or even circa 1994. It’s really awkward to be waiting at the appointed meeting place to meet someone and walk by him because he looks so different than how he did 15 years ago and you just didn’t recognize him. It’s fine if you don’t have hair, it’s fine if you’re older–guess what? I’m older too! How about that! If I was looking for a quick fuck and was going to base it all on looks, this tactic would have backfired. Just. . .be who you are. If your profile intrigued me and our phone conversation led me to agree to meet you, you’re doing just fine.

  151. Sheelzebub: Though I still did get messaged by dudes who wanted to know why I didn’t want children and maybe I’d change my mind.

    “Yes, absolutely, but only for a perfect stranger who harangues me on the internet for my personal choices.”

  152. librarygoose: Darn, does this mean I now have to mourn Jill? She has shamed us, is it like with Klingons, does she get to fight to regain her honor or is it like Vulcans and now we pretend shes not in the room?

    Thank you for making the entire thread better by adding Star Trek. 🙂

  153. ArielNYC: Anyways, I wonder why you think men lie about their height online, the way women lie about their age.

    It makes no sense to lie about your height, because it’s visible. Age is harder to peg precisely.

    I don’t advocate lying about your age or height (and I say this a a tall, 43-year-old woman). But I damn sure advocate paying attention to what people say about their values by specifying what age range they’re looking for or what height range they’re looking for.

    ArielNYC: No. Preferences as in women whose pics are appealing to me.

    So you ignore the preferences of the women you approach online, and then you’re all put out when they see you and you don’t fit their preferences? You’re certainly making your own selections by preferences, aren’t you? How many fat women are you selecting, for example, and how many who aren’t young and hot?

    Sarah Harper: Ummm, no actually, I think he’s a bigger asshole than the guy who just says “no fat chicks”. The elision of thin and fit is kind of the whole point, the idea that what should just be an aesthetic aspect gets turned into a measure of worth.

    Oh, I know all that. But at the very least, it casts that person as someone who has an awareness that being all, “Ew! Fat chicks stay away!” is unnecessary. Trust me, I pass right by when I get one of these guys, but I don’t get that feeling of demoralization.

  156. Dank: EG: Are short men or fat men constantly bombarded with messages that no woman could ever possibly want them?

    Umm, yes?

    Sure. That’s why there are no hugely successful movies in which the fat male protagonist gets the conventionally hot girl (Knocked Up) or long-running sitcoms in which the fat husband has a conventionally hot wife (King of Queens). Whereas there have been a ton of movies in which the 45-year-old woman gets with a superhot young man for her happily ever after, like that famous one starring a twenty-three-year-old Johnny Depp or Brad Pitt or who was it again?–oh, I can’t seem to remember because it doesn’t exist. Just do not even start with this nonsense.

    Sheelzebub: Oddly enough, one reason why I hear that so many 30- and 40-something (and older) men refuse to consider their age is because younger women are better breeding candidates. Baby crazy! It’s not just for women.

    Seriously. “See, when older men seek out long-term partners, they look for younger women because they want to have children and women their own age are past their peak of fertility. Also, when older men seek out short-term partners for dating and sex, they look for younger women, because women their own age are all so baby-crazy, and if you date a younger woman, she doesn’t worry about having or want to have babies. What? What do you mean ‘sexist’? Men are just making rational choices!”

    Which doesn’t address the question of why 60-year-old men are seeking out 40-year-old women but refusing to consider 62-year-old women. Are those dudes wanting to have kids as well? Or are they trying to avoid the baby-crazy 62-year-old women?

  157. @zuzu 159

    So you ignore the preferences of the women you approach online, and then you’re all put out when they see you and you don’t fit their preferences? You’re certainly making your own selections by preferences, aren’t you? How many fat women are you selecting, for example, and how many who aren’t young and hot?

    Hmm putting words in my mouth much? I guess you got the impression that I’m short and that I look for taller women. Which is not the case. I do acknolwedge my privilige.

    Out of curiosity, have you or your friends ever dated down? as in a decade younger? I know it’s a lot easier for me to date down than up. Maybe I’m an outlier and all my peers get treated like young fucktoys by older women, but I wonder. Do women fear being mistreated by younger men? they don’t find younger men appealing? Or are they just so focused on settling down they don’t want to waste time?

    1. Out of curiosity, have you or your friends ever dated down? as in a decade younger? I know it’s a lot easier for me to date down than up. Maybe I’m an outlier and all my peers get treated like young fucktoys by older women, but I wonder. Do women fear being mistreated by younger men? they don’t find younger men appealing? Or are they just so focused on settling down they don’t want to waste time?

      I date younger men, but not THAT much younger. Why? Because if I dated a decade down, I’d be dating an 18-year-old. And… I just can’t imagine we would have much in common, experience-wise or intellectually. And an 18-year-old is basically a boy. I don’t find boys physically attractive.

      I have dated men who are two or three years younger than me, though, and five or so years older. The bigger issue is life experience and current path. I’ve graduated from law school and worked as a lawyer for three years, with a writing career on the side — it’s hard to relate to someone who is still in school (going back to grad school after working for a while is a different story), or who isn’t similarly focused on his ambitions. I also have little desire to date someone whose life is significantly more advanced than mine — like a 45-year-old who is looking for a Do It Right This Time wife, or a 38-year-old who has been working for a decade and is now 100% ready for marriage and kids.

  158. ArielNYC: Out of curiosity, have you or your friends ever dated down? as in a decade younger?

    I’ve dated younger and older (can we drop the down and up thing, as if one is better than the other? Sheesh). In fact, when I did the online dating thing, the majority of men who messaged me were either 12-15 years older OR 12-15 years younger.

    ArielNYC: Do women fear being mistreated by younger men? they don’t find younger men appealing? Or are they just so focused on settling down they don’t want to waste time?

    You’d do a lot better if you didn’t base your questions on stereotypes put forth by pop culture and romcoms. Seriously, I know a lot of women who have dated significantly younger men–and those women aren’t against dating men their age or older (as long as the older men didn’t think they were too good for women their own age). I also know couples who settled down where there was an age difference with the woman being older.

  159. @Sheelzebub

    can we drop the down and up thing, as if one is better than the other? Sheesh

    What exactly implied that I privilieged one over the other?

    You’d do a lot better if you didn’t base your questions on stereotypes put forth by pop culture and romcoms.

    Or….my own experience? older women dig me a lot less than younger women my age. Clearly they value youth a lot less than older men do. So I’m wondering why.

  160. Try “Why have the women I’ve dated” rather than “Why do women”. The former is an honest inquiry, the latter is an asshatted generalization.

  161. older women dig me a lot less than younger women my age. Clearly they value youth a lot less than older men do.

    Or they assume that someone significantly younger wouldn’t be interested in them because of the trope that men are visual and dig young hawt chicks, so they figured they’d be more realistic in their choices. Or maybe the older women you’re going for don’t feel that have a lot in common with you for whatever reason.

    Look, we’re pointing out the ageism with men because we see this all the time online–a man’s age range often falls several years short of his own age. And for me personally, it’s a turnoff, even if I’m right in his age range. It’s not as if they are thinking a woman their age wouldn’t consider them–they can’t be bothered considering a woman their age. When I started out online, I figured I’d keep my age range “realistic” since if men my age thought I was too old, younger men would, too. Turns out that wasn’t the case.

  162. @Jill

    I’m reminded of Sidney Pollack’s middle-aged character in Husbands and Wives and his young girlfriend misadventure. Brutal stuff.

    And an 18-year-old is basically a boy. I don’t find boys physically attractive.

    Do you ever ask yourself why that is? Do you think you didn’t receive the right social messaging? I sometimes read complaints in feminist spaces that if only so and so socially-unpriviliged characteristics were shown in a more positive light then attitudes toward fat/older/whatever women would change. And yet Hollywood is not lacking for hot young guys and Justin Beiber is inexplicably a huge idol for older women. And yet it’s hard to tease out how these phenomena translate into a wider effect for younger men.

    1. I mean, I dunno, I found boys attractive when I was a girl — when I was 18, I found other 18-year-olds attractive. When I was 12, I found other 12-year-olds attractive. When I was 14 I was making out with 14-year-olds, and when I was 19 I was having sex with a 19-year-old. But I wouldn’t make out with a 14-year-old today because I do not find 14-year-olds sexually attractive. That doesn’t have as much to do with social messaging as, I expect, some psychological and biological development that allows human attraction to mature as the human being does. Because when I was 14, I also wasn’t attracted to 30-year-old men. Now I am.

  163. ArielNYC: Out of curiosity, have you or your friends ever dated down? as in a decade younger?

    I’m 43 and fooling around with a 35-year-old. My sister is 44 and dating a 28-year-old.

    I get messages from 23-year-olds, too, but I think that’s too big an age spread. I don’t respond to the 60-year-olds who message me on OKCupid, either. And I wouldn’t be with the 35-year-old if I thought he was a man-child. I’m looking for a grown-ass man.

    ArielNYC: older women dig me a lot less than younger women my age.

    Maybe you read as immature.

  164. “That doesn’t have as much to do with social messaging as, I expect, some psychological and biological development that allows human attraction to mature as the human being does.”

    Do you believe then that men who don’t grow out of their attraction to college-aged women, or women up to their early 30s, are emotionally/biologically stunted? To judge by porn alone, that would mean like 99% of the hetero male population. I’m wondering what you think the big picture is in terms of nature vs nurture in this case.

    1. If we judged by porn alone, women who are over the age of 25 or have natural breasts or have poochy stomachs or have cellulite or have thick thighs or who basically don’t look like Barbie dolls would never be considered attractive by any men. And yes, I think men who are unable to expand their attraction outside of a porn ideal are emotionally and biologically stunted. Luckily, that is not true of most men.

      Also? Porn is fantasy. It’s erotic material. It’s not what you base your real-life relationships on, and attraction to the point of actually fucking and/or dating someone is much more complex than just “that person is pleasant to look at while they are naked.”

  166. @groggette

    You can also reference the OKcupid study on on the case for older women that I linked to if you don’t find sexual preferenes reflected in commercialized sex to be persuasive.

  169. You know, Ariel, when you judge by porn alone, you’re setting yourself up for unflattering comparisons to the male performers.

    What, you didn’t think women expect all men to have 14 inch cocks?

  170. To judge by porn alone, a lot of people are into being fucked by animated, tentacled monsters. Porn is not an accurate reflection of reality; and what porn people watch is not an accurate reflection of who they want to fuck, let alone who they want to date.

    Also, the market for porn may not be so good at reflecting consumer preferences, for a lot of reasons having to do with an insular industry culture, limited competition, poor contact with consumer choices, etc. all of which would make for a fascinating economics dissertation.

    Ariel, there comes a point in a discussion when someone has said so many assinine things that there is no way out of the discussion other than flounce or humiliating flailing. You have reached that point. I recommend flounce.

  171. Do you believe then that men who don’t grow out of their attraction to college-aged women, or women up to their early 30s, are emotionally/biologically sexually stunted?

    There. Fixed that for you.

  172. @zuzu

    Maybe you read as immature.

    Maybe I do. But then why would you even bother dating younger men? It’s not like our maturity is our calling card (I think?). Youth, energy, excitement, no care in the world? Sure. Maturity? meh.
    And might as well ask: do men in their 30s/40s have the kind of sexual competence that men in their 20s don’t? And does that make up for loss of youth?

  173. That maturity thing? It cuts both ways, which is why it is a red flag when grown-ass men specifically seek out young women (and their lack of maturity).

  174. Also? One doesn’t tend to “lose” youth and then immediately commence to dying. Most people pass through youth on their way to adulthood (you know, that longer 60+ year period that we tend to stick around for).

  175. As for the whole question about highbrow literary interests: I can totally see dudes reading Nabokov and Pynchon for fun. It’s all about the fetishes baby! Nabokov: pedophilia (Lolita) and brother-sister incest (Ada). Pynchon: Gravity’s Rainbow has pretty much the whole rainbow of kink, from shit-eating to public orgies to cross-dressing to whipping to spanking a little girl with a ruler to role-play based on the Brothers Grimm…well worth reading…

    *pretentious lit geek raises indignant eyebrow*

  177. ArielNYC: Maybe I do. But then why would you even bother dating younger men? It’s not like our maturity is our calling card (I think?). Youth, energy, excitement, no care in the world? Sure. Maturity? meh.

    Speak for yourself. I’ve met 28 year olds who were mature, and 50 year olds who were overgrown teenagers.

    1. Speak for yourself. I’ve met 28 year olds who were mature, and 50 year olds who were overgrown teenagers.

      And the 50-year-olds who are overgrown teenagers tend to want to date 20-something women. Hence the red flag.

  178. @Thomas MacAulay Millar

    To judge by porn alone, a lot of people are into being fucked by animated, tentacled monsters.

    You have stats on that? Or you just picked some random niche porn from Japan and decided that it’s a global, mainstream phenomenon replicated across many cultures? I’ll humbly ask you to reconsider that statement.

  181. Look, unless Ariel’s interlocutors are denying that many/most heterosexual men in contemporary American culture are sexually attracted to women in their 20s who approximate the Hollywood beauty standard, then the anti-porn indignation is beside the point. I think it’s safe to say that most men in our culture are sexually attracted to women in their 20s and early-30s, and have a sexual preference for women in that age range over those who are older, regardless of how much older than that those men may be. So, Ariel’s point stands – if you think that attraction and preference makes someone emotionally stunted, then you think most men in the United States are emotionally stunted.

    1. Again, there’s a big difference between being physically attracted to someone in fantasy-land — porn, movies, whatever — and wanting to actually be with that person in real life. I’ve watched porn too! And yet in my real life, I am not seeking out meathead dudes with huge biceps, douchey haircuts and 14-inch penises. When I was 14, I thought Gavin Rossdale was the hottest thing alive, and yet I was not actually trying to date — or even interested in dating — real-life 30-year-old men.

      So. This isn’t about being anti-porn (also, hi, have you been here before?). It’s about acknowledging that porn is a really bad metric for evaluating what people actually like in their real lives.

      1. Oh and it’s also about recognizing that, again, you can be attracted to something in fantasy-land, but grown ups don’t actually expect that or necessarily want it in their relationships. To bring this back to dating (and online dating specifically), yes, of course most (or at least many) men think that 20-something women who are professionally attractive (models, actresses, porn stars) are attractive. But when people are seeking out others to actually be in a relationship with, there are a ton of factors at play to actually have real-life attraction. There are even more factors at play in order to build a real-life relationship. Dating is how you sort through those factors. Some of them are obvious at first — there are certain signifiers of lifestyle and culture that are obvious to the naked eye. If a guy dresses like a character on Jersey Shore, I am not interested, even if his face and body look like Brad Pitt’s. He could be totally nice and look great naked, but the way he presents himself — and what that says about his recreational activities and the kind of life he thinks is fun and interesting — is thoroughly unappealing to me. And I would suggest that a lot of men are not going to interested in women in real life who look and dress like porn stars, even if they are interested in watching people have sex. Because most human beings are emotionally complex people, and healthy relationships are partnerships — not just one person fucking a body he’s attracted to. It’s not impossible to have equality between two people of very different ages, but it’s a little more difficult. And that aside, if a person indicates that they do not want to date someone their own age, that preference is a pretty good sign that they are seeking out inequality.

        So I don’t think finding a movie star attractive makes someone emotionally stunted. I think wanting to actually date women decades younger than you while being unwilling to date women your own age absolutely makes you emotionally stunted.

  182. To judge by porn alone, people have atrocious taste in interior design, very clean cars and very dirty pools.

  183. Oh I agree that porn is a terrible metric for what people actually want in real life. What I’m trying to say is that if we ignore the porn example Ariel used, the basic point is still valid – that most men do seem to be sexually attracted to women in their 20s, even if those men are much older than that. I read Ariel’s point to be that if you think such sexual attraction itself is dysfunctional, then that translates into a pretty wideranging criticism. On the other hand, if what you’re saying is that sexual attraction is all well and good, but wanting to be in a relationship with someone who is much younger than yourself is often problematic, then that’s different. Basically, I’m trying to say there appears to be a trainwreck developing over the porn issue, which I think is beside the point.

    And yes, I’ve been mostly lurking and occasionally posting here for quite a while, but my last de-lurking ended with a bit of a dust-up (which, incidentally, I think was adjudicated unfairly, but your house, your rules, so if you’d like me to go back into lurk mode, I’ll do so).

  185. To judge by porn alone, most women are having sex with the cable guy. “Thats why they call me, ich bein ein expert.”

  186. R. Dave, people razzed Ariel about the porn example because it was a stupid fucking piece of ‘evidence’ about the preferences of American men. Also, I’ve seen my share and a lot of those actors look older than mid-twenties. Nothing wrong with that, but come on, you can’t then say that it’s an indication of what men are attracted to. If that was the case, I’d never have boyfriends or get laid since I’m not built like your average porn actress.

    Also, it’s one thing to be attracted to someone, it’s another thing to close yourself off entirely from people your own age because you deem them unattractive, unworthy, etc. Any dude who does that should take his own aging ass into consideration and be prepared to spend a long time single.

  187. Sometimes people’s reading comprehension fails baffle me.

    There is a distinct difference between someone who is mostly attracted to women in their 20’s-30’s (but maybe open to other ages) and someone who REFUSES to consider someone outside of that age range.

    I’m MOSTLY attracted to long-haired-but-somewhat-bookish-fellows-in-their-20’s but I’m totally willing to consider those outside of those specifications if something about them interests me.

    Being mainly drawn to one age group – no problem. Refusing to even consider people outside of it.. fucked up. (especially when the age range you refuse to consider is your own).

    Would you argue that the ‘majority’ of men refuse to date women that are not in their 20’s?

  188. Jill: I think wanting to actually date women decades younger than you while being unwilling to date women your own age absolutely makes you emotionally stunted.

      

    Oh, you mean my ex? Because as he gets older, his girlfriends stay 21.

  189. jrockford: To judge by porn alone, most women are having sex with the cable guy. “Thats why they call me, ich bein ein expert.”

    Or the pizza delivery dude. And dudes with weird facial hair. Also, I don’t get into catfights with other women and then start fucking them.

    Not for nothing, but Ron Jeremy is not particularly attractive to me or a lot of women.

  191. Thanks, Jill. I’m not sure why this is so hard for people to get. Sure, many men find 20-something women attractive, but I would say that most guys don’t think that only women in their 20s are dateable. They don’t rule out a huge swath of the female population based on a single piece of information. Honestly, men hook up with, date, and even marry women who are their own age or even older all the time! If a guy tells me that he is only attracted to and willing to date women who are younger than him by decade or more, then, yes, I think he is emotionally stunted, and even if I fell into his preferred age group, I would absolutely not date him.

  192. What Sheelzebub and Andie said.

    There’s a big difference between finding people in their 20’s attractive on the one hand and insisting that you can’t possibly find someone your own age attractive on the other.

  193. Andie:Would you argue that the ‘majority’ of men refuse to date women that are not in their 20′s?

    No, of course not, Andie. But is listing a preferred age range on your dating profile the equivalent of a categorical refusal to go outside that range? Or is it just expressing a preference? I perceive it as the latter, but maybe I’m mistaken in that. I’ve never actually used an online dating site myself (though I obviously know a number of people who have).

  194. R. Dave: But is listing a preferred age range on your dating profile the equivalent of a categorical refusal to go outside that range? Or is it just expressing a preference?

    Depending on the site, it can be a refusal, as some sites will not send matches to you that fall outside of that age range.. on some sites, they may even prevent you from receiving messages outside of your preferred age range, if that’s what you indicate in your preferences. So depending on the site you are using, putting an age range outside of your own age range IS an indication of a refusal to consider someone within your own age cohort.

  195. For the record I would be annoyed by someone who thought I wouldn’t be worthy of them once I got 10 years older. But I would have still have my fun with them and enjoy their company for what it’s worth (granted perhaps very little for some). I just wouldn’t think of them as relationship material. So I guess it depends on what we mean by “dating” in this context

  196. Jill: It’s not impossible to have equality between two people of very different ages, but it’s a little more difficult. And that aside, if a person indicates that they do not want to date someone their own age, that preference is a pretty good sign that they are seeking out inequality.

    Going back to my original comment regarding the OP, it’s really just this diagnosis that I disagree with. It could be Peter Pan syndrome; or related to child-rearing; or an attempt to recapture lost time (e.g. spent most of his 20s and 30s with a career focus and wants to pick up his personal life where he left off); or a desire for a primarily sexual fling (not everyone needs or wants a deep mental and emotional connection for that) or any number of other things. I just think assuming it’s probably about the potential power differential is a mistake.

  198. R. Dave: But is listing a preferred age range on your dating profile the equivalent of a categorical refusal to go outside that range?

    It affects searches and the automated search done for you on a lot of sites. By putting in an age range, you’re cutting off anyone who is not in those parameters. People outside of the range can find you, sure, and they can message you, but it’s clear that you won’t be looking for or considering them. Also, if your preference doesn’t include your own age, that speaks volumes, as far as I’m concerned. I think that’s fucked up.

  199. R. Dave: It could be Peter Pan syndrome; or related to child-rearing; or an attempt to recapture lost time (e.g. spent most of his 20s and 30s with a career focus and wants to pick up his personal life where he left off); or a desire for a primarily sexual fling (not everyone needs or wants a deep mental and emotional connection for that) or any number of other things.

    And they will find it challenging to get women in their preferred age range. They can want all kinds of things, but they get hit with cold reality soon enough when they realize that most 20-something women are not interested in dating men who are closer in age to their fathers than to them. Ditto for cheap, fun sex. That knife cuts both ways, and these guys who rationalize their whopping sense of entitlement forget that. They aren’t just open to dating women younger then them, they only want women younger than them. Good luck with that, but don’t whine when you’re still alone ten years later.

  200. R. Dave: if you think that attraction and preference makes someone emotionally stunted, then you think most men in the United States are emotionally stunted.

    Ding ding ding! We have a winner! Congratulations, young man! Yes, indeed, this is one of the many problems with masculinity as it is currently constructed under patriarchy.

    R. Dave: But is listing a preferred age range on your dating profile the equivalent of a categorical refusal to go outside that range?

    Yes. There. Done.

    ArielNYC: For the record I would be annoyed by someone who thought I wouldn’t be worthy of them once I got 10 years older. But I would have still have my fun with them and enjoy their company

    You’ve got it the wrong way round. No asshat who thinks like that about women deserves to have fun with me and enjoy my company. And I certainly don’t want to waste any time listening to them make idiotic observations about women.

  201. ArielNYC: Maybe I do. But then why would you even bother dating younger men? It’s not like our maturity is our calling card (I think?). Youth, energy, excitement, no care in the world? Sure. Maturity? meh.

    As has been noted, I wasn’t using a general “you.” Maybe you, Ariel, don’t get a lot of older women looking at your profile because you, Ariel, read as immature. Certainly if you base your opinion of what men desire on porn, it’s a fair read.

    Kristen J.: To judge by porn alone, people have atrocious taste in interior design, very clean cars and very dirty pools.

    Those pool boys *never* seem to get their work done.

    R. Dave: What I’m trying to say is that if we ignore the porn example Ariel used, the basic point is still valid – that most men do seem to be sexually attracted to women in their 20s, even if those men are much older than that.

    It’s not really controversial that youth is considered sexually attractive — which, by the way, also holds for het women; they, too, think that the young men are hawt, even as they themselves age! Which is why older men, who don’t have the bloom of youth on their side anymore, generally need something else to attract the young women.

    But this is OKCupid we’re talking about, not Adult Friend Finder. And people on OKCupid are usually looking for a relationship, not just casual sex. If you don’t find people of your own age worthy of having a relationship with, unless of course you’re expecting the person to whom you’re pitching woo to find people your own age worthy of having a relationship with. That said,

    R. Dave: or a desire for a primarily sexual fling (not everyone needs or wants a deep mental and emotional connection for that)

    Uh, you do realize that women in their 30s, 40s, 50s, etc., also have casual sex, right? And that a 20-year-old woman looking for a casual hookup and nothing more just may prefer a hot young thing over the 50-year-old trying to recapture his lost youth through her pussy?

    ArielNYC: For the record I would be annoyed by someone who thought I wouldn’t be worthy of them once I got 10 years older. But I would have still have my fun with them and enjoy their company for what it’s worth (granted perhaps very little for some).

    Yeah. Can’t imagine why the older ladies aren’t all up on that.

    1. Seriously, y’all, it’s sex, not Logan’s Run. You don’t get killed off when you turn 30.

      But obviously if you’re female you should maybe consider killing yourself, since no one will ever find you attractive EVER AGAIN.

  203. @EG

    Do you judge people for having sexual relations with partners they find physically attractive but also emotionally disagreeable?

  204. Jill: But obviously if you’re female you should maybe consider killing yourself, since no one will ever find you attractive EVER AGAIN.

    Someone has to care for all the cats in the world, Jill.

    You’ll see. You’ll be issued two cats when you turn 30, and one a year thereafter.

  205. For the record I would be annoyed by someone who thought I wouldn’t be worthy of them once I got 10 years older. But I would have still have my fun with them and enjoy their company.

    See, I wouldn’t. I would say to myself, “this person is a douchebag, and I am not going to waste my time with douchebags. I am certainly not going to have sex with one of them, because douchebags are not usually great lovers. There are many non-douchebag men in the world; I think I’ll find one of them for my fun times and company.”

  207. Data point: I’m a 46-year-old man dating a wonderful 30-year-old (feminist) woman. Her youthful looks are a perk, but I’ve also happily dated women around my age, a little older, and even significantly older. Which, now that everyone mentions it, is something my current sweetie does appreciate. She’s a human being, not a date of birth.

    So I guess I’m really just agreeing with Jill’s point. Going exclusively (or mainly?) after significantly younger women: probably creepy. Being sincerely open to a wide range of ages including one’s own as well as much younger: no, not creepy. (Although sometimes awkward or amusing, because yes I have been mistaken for her father a couple of times.)

  208. zuzu: Seriously,y’all,it’ssex,notLogan’sRun.Youdon’tgetkilledoffwhenyouturn30.

    Ok, I am seriously missing out on some cat action here.

  210. zuzu: You’ll see. You’ll be issued two cats when you turn 30, and one a year thereafter.

    But what happens to the cats if you get married after 30?

    HAHAHA just kidding, I know that’s imposible.

  211. Call them emotionally stunted, call them shallow, call them assholes or dicks or whatever, all of those might be accurate. But it’s really fucking annoying to see people call older men who want to be with younger women pedophiles. Or to call people who like “tiny’ girls pedophiles. Jerry Sandusky is a pedophile. A 38 year old dude who wants to date a 23 year old is not a pedophile. It doesn’t mean they want to fuck 10 year olds. Stop throwing around that word so casually and inaccurately.

    And FWIW, I’m 29, my age range is listed as 21-35, and I only get messages from women under 27.

    Also, just because your favorite books/films/tv/movies/music are produced by white men doesn’t mean you hate women. Or black people. Or that you’re closed minded.

    Other than that, fine article.

  212. You’ll see. You’ll be issued two cats when you turn 30, and one a year thereafter.

    What happens if you get married before 30 and then divorced after 30? Do you get your cats plus interest?

  213. Annoying: women who list themselves as bisexual but state in their profile they are looking for men. Also couples who aren’t upfront about it (usually a woman looking for both herself and her husband).

  214. Jill: Seriously, y’all, it’s sex, not Logan’s Run. You don’t get killed off when you turn 30.

    But obviously if you’re female you should maybe consider killing yourself, since no one will ever find you attractive EVER AGAIN.

    There are, unfortunately, not only women but also young gay men who absorb exactly that kind of message. My son has a friend in his late 20’s who’s apparently already concerned that he’s past his peak, at least with respect to meeting people online. My son, who’s only 21, is starting to have concerns himself about how many more years he has to find someone, as ridiculous as he knows it is to feel that way. Although I’m sure he’d be happy to reach a point where he’s no longer approached online by 45 year old men. Which he finds creepy, and I, of course, think of as approaching child molestation. Stay away from my baby! (Speaking of which, my son is only 5’2″, like me. It’s actually quite a bit easier for him to find people interested in him than it would be if he were straight, I think, but, unfortunately, there are some guys who fetishize short, young, gay men, as if he really were still a child. Also creepy; as I know well from personal experience, being fetishized isn’t a lot of fun.)

    Another reason I wouldn’t go on OK Cupid, by the way: he’s on there. On entirely different areas, obviously, but it would still seem a little weird to me to be on the same dating site as my son!

  215. Donna L: but it would still seem a little weird to me to be on the same dating site as my son!

    Yeah I can see it being weird… but you could always use it to check up on each other’s dating prsopects! Different relationship, but I know (polyamorous, natch) couples who do that with each other’s profiles.

  216. wl: Annoying: women who list themselves as bisexual but state in their profile they are looking for men.

    Out of curiosity, why do you find this annoying? I’m assuming you mean they’re only looking for me. Do you also think it’s annoying if bi women say they’re only looking for women at that time?

  218. zuzu:
    Seriously,y’all,it’ssex,notLogan’sRun.Youdon’tgetkilledoffwhenyouturn30.

    Well duh. Everyone knows you have the chance to renew your sexiness at Carousel!

  219. It’s more of a personal annoyance that they still show up as matches for me. More a problem with OkCupid than them I guess. Maybe there’s some unexamined something going on there too.

  220. I think a guy who will only date women younger than himself also reveals either a lack of self-awareness or predatory impulses or both. Ariel and R Dave were bringing up a valid point that younger women are more highly valued by men in our culture–saying look at all these actresses, models, porn stars, etc. But what would you think of an ugly guy who says “I will only date beautiful actresses”? Or a obese guy who says “I will only date skinny fashion models”? Doesn’t it seem a bit problematic if there is a guy who is saying he only wants women who rate the highest by conventional standards, when by those same conventional standards he miserably fails?

    And unless said guys are really rich, they are probably shooting themselves in the foot anyway. So no offense to older creepy guys, but they should probably not venture too far out of their “league.”

  221. Nnnnng, wow.

    I’m dating a guy that is a few years younger than me. He’s also nearly my height, not taller than I am. I met him on okCupid.

    I have been messaged by guys much younger than me. I’m over 40. One of the guys was 19 and the other was 20. They were cute enough, but, their profiles weren’t all that interesting. They wouldn’t have been that interesting if they had been 40 either. I really need someone that I can TALK TO for me to get turned on, and that’s what I want to see clues of in the profile and their messages. If I don’t think they have anything interesting to say, then i’m not interested. It doesn’t matter what age you are.

    So, not all guys want someone younger. Not all girls want someone older. Not all guys want someone shorter, and not all women want someone taller.

    There is a study on okCupid that established that many men (not all or most, but, many)add two inches to their height when listing it. Silly, but, I believe it. I went on a date with a guy that exaggerated his height by 4 inches. Did he really think that I wasn’t going to notice?

  222. Jenna: I went on a date with a guy that exaggerated his height by 4 inches. Did he really think that I wasn’t going to notice?

    Ha. I had that happen to me to, only the guy insisted that I must really be 6 feet tall, since he was 5’9″ and therefore I couldn’t also be 5’9″. I disabused him of that. Have your own delusions, but don’t start trying to gaslight me into going along with them.

    LotusBen: But what would you think of an ugly guy who says “I will only date beautiful actresses”? Or a obese guy who says “I will only date skinny fashion models”? Doesn’t it seem a bit problematic if there is a guy who is saying he only wants women who rate the highest by conventional standards, when by those same conventional standards he miserably fails?

    Anyone who comes right out and says he’ll only date beautiful women is kind of a jackass with an overinflated sense of entitlement and the only redeeming quality he has is that he advertises his jackassery in big flashing neon letters for all to see.

    Well, that, and he’s probably a great source of schadenfreude. Because you know that shit’s not working out well for him.

  223. zuzu: P>Anyone who comes right out and says he’ll only date beautiful women is kind of a jackass with an over inflated sense of entitlement and the only redeeming quality he has is that he advertises his jackassery in big flashing neon letters for all to see. Well, that, and he’s probably a great source of schadenfreude. Because you know that shit’s not working out well for him.

    Haha, yeah I definitely agree that such a person is a jackass. Although I think it’s important to note that by and large being a jackass, provided one has the looks, charisma, intelligence, money, and family origin (or some combination thereof) to back it up, actually pays off in our society. Particularly if you’re a man. Jackassery is not that different than a “successful performace of masculinity,” and it works well in business, politics, and in attracting (most) women.

  224. LotusBen: Jackassery is not that different than a “successful performace of masculinity,” and it works well in business, politics, and in attracting (most) women.

    I won’t speak to business and politics, but that last one comes dangerously close to Nice Guy territory.

    Most of the guys in my life right now are happily coupled. None of them are jackasses. See this comic: http://www.girlswithslingshots.com/comic/gws-1280/

  225. Pretty funny comic Shoshie. Lol. I never meant to imply that being a jackass was the best path to happiness. I doubt that it is. And yeah, most guys can find a woman to couple with them, if that’s what they want. Just like most people can find a job, if that’s what they want. But if you’re a man, all other things being equal, you will be able to get more and “better” jobs if you’re a jackass, just like you’ll be able to get more and “better” women if you’re a jackass. That’s just my factually unsubstantiated opinion.

    I mean, Nice Guys may be naive and/or manipulative idiots, but that doesn’t mean they are wrong about everything. Most women and most beta males adopt the behavior trait of being “nice” with the subconscious hope that, by conforming to other’s wishes, they will be rewarded. But the reality is that coforming to other’s wishes just lets you be exploited. Being nice is just a form of weakness. The way to succeed is to do what you want. And for a subset of people, espeically men, doing what they want involves exploiting others. Said people are jackasses. And in general they are more successful in our world than weak, “nice” people, whether male, female, or something else.

  228. Jenna: There is a study on okCupid that established that many men (not all or most, but, many)add two inches to their height when listing it. Silly, but, I believe it. I went on a date with a guy that exaggerated his height by 4 inches. Did he really think that I wasn’t going to notice?

    My guess is that they think that exaggerating their height will give them the opportunity to meet women who would otherwise automatically reject them. And that once they meet such a woman in person, they’re so amazing and awesome that she’ll overlook their little fib.

    I have a feeling that it doesn’t work very often. It’s one thing not to disclose in advance every conceivable fact about yourself that you think might lead to an automatic rejection by 99.9% of people who might otherwise be interested (for example, having a trans history); it’s entirely another to make an affirmative statement about yourself that anyone who meets you will immediately know is untrue. Not that that’s the worst lie ever on the grand scale of things, but I can’t imagine that it’s very productive.

    So the one time I ever published a personal ad in my former incarnation, all those years ago, I decided that it would be wise to be say something about my height. If I recall correctly, I described myself as “short but not bald” — no photos in those days — and said I was seeking an SJF (do people still use those abbreviations?) with “similar physical characteristics.” I got enough responses that I went out with more women that summer (including my future former spouse) than the entire rest of my life put together, before and since. My summer of trying to be “normal,” I guess. A monumentally bad idea for me in the long run, but, then again, without it I wouldn’t have my son.

  229. And that once they meet such a woman in person, they’re so amazing and awesome that she’ll overlook their little fib.

    *nods* My friend had a date recently with a guy who lied about his age – by five years.

    She googled him pre-date (as one does) and the first link revealed his real age. So, while on the date, she asked him how old he was – and he lied about it again.

    …my friend’s eHarmony profile was pretty clear about how important she thinks honesty is. She wasn’t impressed. (And when she called him on it, he defended his “lack of accuracy” as not being a big deal…)

  230. Me? I thought Nice Guys had to think they were nice?

    Yes, you.

    Sign 1: You think the point of “being nice” is to manipulate people.
    Sign 2: You think women are more likely to fall for jackasses.
    Sign 3: You think being a jackass makes you successful.

  231. LotusBen: Most women and most beta males adopt the behavior trait of being “nice” with the subconscious hope that, by conforming to other’s wishes, they will be rewarded.

    Zuh? I’m nice to people because that should be the default mode of interaction for everyone. People deserve to be treated well unless they, themselves, are acting like total dicks. Say your thank yous, hold the door, be a good listener, and always leave a decent tip. It makes the world more bearable for everyone, even if you’ll never see those people again.

    (Yeah, I really am a pretty nice person IRL. I only get into knife fights on the internet. 😛 )

  232. Haha, well I agree with your three signs Mezzanine so if that’s what it takes to be a Nice Guy perhaps I’m one. Stings a little bit since I hate being nice and like to think of myself as a cynical loner who is intentionally cold and aloof.

    And hey, if you don’t agree with those three ideas, then more power to you. But, in my opinion, the world is not all rainbows and unicorns and is a very fucked up place (this being the least of it).

    I don’t write the rules…I just observe and mock them from an safe emotional distance.

  233. Igglanova–yeah I mean, if you want to do all that, that’s fine. But I believe the reason people are socialized to be nice or follow social norms is to make the lives of others easier, generally those others being adults or men or dominant males or others with power. Why do you think women are generally nicer and more polite than men? Why were blacks during slavery or segregation supposed to grin like idiots and say “yes, mastuh”?

    And there’s a difference between saying “thank you” if you’re feeling grateful about something in the moment or saying “thank you” out of a sense of obligation or as an unconscious verbal tic. One is just being honest, the other is being “nice.”

  234. igglanova: Okay, that’s creepy. You sound like me. You aren’t related to me, are you? Although I’d add the caveat that I’m a nice person who listens to rude music.

  235. LotusBen: But I believe the reason people are socialized to be nice or follow social norms is to make the lives of others easier, generally those others being adults or men or dominant males or others with power. Why do you think women are generally nicer and more polite than men? Why were blacks during slavery or segregation supposed to grin like idiots and say “yes, mastuh”?

    Wait, you think that black people were socialized during slavery to grin and bear it to make the master’s life easier? Instead of, oh, I don’t know, not fucking getting killed or beaten?

  236. ArielNYC: Do you judge people for having sexual relations with partners they find physically attractive but also emotionally disagreeable?

    Do I judge other people for it? Nah, not so much. Do I find the prospect at all appealing? Fuck, no. The idea makes my flesh crawl.

  237. Hmm. Confession time… I’m 42 and my partner is 27. Amusingly, when we met she added a couple of years to her age and I let her assume I was 5 or more years younger than I was (she was 20 to my 35). We broke up a year or so later because she really was too young for me. Then got back together a year or so later after she had gained more experience and decided that the other guys she tried compared unfovourably. Which, since I like her a lot now, is great for me.

    This is a signficant problem on OKC because a lot of the poly women who look at my profile go “old white guy with much younger asian partner” and make uncharitable assumptions. She doesn’t need to bother with online dating because she gets enough guys hitting on her that aren’t dissuaded by the polyamory thing. Which kinda works for her. Me? I just wish our local poly group was more than 30% women.

    I’m also one of the “wanted: fit, active woman” guys. I ride my bicycle everywhere and I do random physically active stuff as the opportunity arises. And I rely on my partners being able to do the same. It’s not worked well when I’ve had the “stay home and knit” type partners, and it can be odd even having that gap with more casual relationships. I struggle a bit to maintain friendships with people whose first thought when I invite them somewhere is “how will I drive there?”.

  238. zuzu: Wait, you think that black people were socialized during slavery to grin and bear it to make the master’s life easier? Instead of, oh, I don’t know, not fucking getting killed or beaten?

    Right, the more deferential black people were to white people, the easier white people’s lives were, and the less likely it was those white people would choose to beat those black people in anger. Although the black people who were the least likely to get beaten in the long run were those who escaped from slavery, like Frederick Douglass. Which illustrates how being nice is less advantageous for an adult than being free and autonomous.

  239. LotusBen: You do know that from all accounts, Frederick Douglass was a polite and well mannered man even when he was a free man? He didn’t have to be a raging asshole to get his point across. And also- the woman who he loved and eventually married helped him escape.So he didn’t do it on his own.
    Slaves did not escape because they were sick of being beaten if they weren’t polite. They escaped because being a slave was a shitty way of life, and they wanted to have some control over their lives.
    The ones who escaped weren’t neccessarily the ones who would stomp all over people to get their own way. In fact, in the Underground Railroad, the ones who were the most cooperative would have had an advantage, because selfishness increased the likelihood of someone selling the escapees or the conductors out so they could get their freedom.
    So, in conclusion, smarts and luck determined whether any given slave managed to successfully escape, not their personality. If you’re going to drag historical people into a blogfight, do a little research first.
    Sorry, everyone. Inaccurate history makes me rage.

  240. OK Politicalguineapig, it sounds like you’re annoyed at me because you believe I’m misinterpreting history, and you’d like me to do research next time. Well, I don’t really care about what I’m saying and just sort of passing time. So that’s why I’m not doing any research. Nonetheless, I pretty much agree with everything you have to say, although I wasn’t aware with it in such detail. I’ve never advocated being a raging asshole. But I’m pretty sure Frederick Douglass, based off exerpts of stuff of his I’ve read, was a pretty confident, assertive guy. And I’m guessing he probably didn’t care that much about other people’s judgements of him (pure speculation, sorry). And he did escape slavery. And it seemed like he had a pretty good life. So I still chalk it down as evidence that doing what you want is more in one’s interests than trying to be nice all the time. I mean it wasn’t very nice of him to escape slavery, now was it?

  241. // i am confused. somebody tell a joke. plu-ease //

    ok-ay, thats a line from grandad in “Moonstruck”.
    actually, reading through some of the comments here completely cracks me and makes me smile, grand (hey, i am an aspie, dont hit me)
    best thing ever to read before beddy-byes 😉

    and yes, these and other points are, in my experience too, indeedly *huge / red flags* in soc. online-dating.
    (gosh, i am a self-sufficient FAB and only look for soc. no-strings-lovers. it is a h.u.g.e. desert out there. off to DYI with funfactory & lube)

  242. R. Dave @194

    Oh I agree that porn is a terrible metric for what people actually want in real life. What I’m trying to say is that if we ignore the porn example Ariel used, the basic point is still valid – that most men do seem to be sexually attracted to women in their 20s, even if those men are much older than that.

    Speak for yourself. You do not speak for me.

    Unless you know “most men” (i.e., at least 1/2 billion people) well enough to know their sexual preferences, or have done serious, careful social research on the subject, you’re just pulling these claims out of your ass.

    This stuff is simply popular mythology: a random (or self-serving) claim that by being endlessly repeated ends up being taken for Revealed Truth. What’s sad is that ther e seem to be a lot of guys (e.g., you and Ariel) who feel the need to live up to this nonsense.

    Speaking for myself, I find many women in their 20s “cute” (just as I do many 10-year-old girls), and I am aware that they fulfill the current social expectations of sexual attractiveness, but that doesn’t mean I am personally sexually attracted to them. To some extent, it’s a difference in life perspective, and to some extent, it’s about them being young enough to be my daughter (or maybe even my granddaughter.) The women I find “hot” tend to be in the 40-60 range (I’m 58.)

    BTW, is there a bingo card for sexist dating memes? If so, I’m sure we would have gotten bingo by now.

  243. [Hope this doesn’t appear twice — my first attempt disappeared.]

    R. Dave @194

    the basic point is still valid that most men do seem to be sexually attracted to women in their 20s, even if those men are much older than that.

    Speak for yourself.

    Unless you actually know “most men” (FYI, that’s something like 1/2 billion peop
    le) well enough to know what turns them on — or are a serious social researcher who has done in-depth surveys with a representative sample of thousands of men — you’re just pulling claims out of your ass.

    Or, more likely, you’re just repeating popular mythology: somebody’s BS opinion
    that sounded cool and has gotten repeated so often it passes for Revealed Truth. (Cf.: the “men think of sex every 7 seconds” meme.) The sad part is that so m
    any men (e.g., you and Ariel) feel the need to live up to this nonsense.

    As it happens, I’m not sexually attracted to many women in their 20s.
    I would be more likely to describe them as “cute” than “hot.” The fact that the
    y’re young enough to be my daughter (or maybe even granddaughter) may play a rol
    e, as does the difference in life perspective. The women I find “hot” are mostl
    y in the 40-60 year-old range (I’m 58.)

  244. [ Can someone put an end-blockquote after the first quoted paragraph of #255? ]
    [ Also, can I suggest adding a “preview” button, so we posters can catch stupid errors like this?]

  245. LotusBen: Right, the more deferential black people were to white people, the easier white people’s lives were, and the less likely it was those white people would choose to beat those black people in anger.

    Right, see, this is you problem. Being nice != being differential. I try to be nice to people. I also assert my needs and desires, even when they sometimes conflict with what other people want or need. In those cases, I am polite and I compromise where I can. I don’t get angry with other people who assert their needs or desires, unless I think they are being unreasonable. This does not actually require me to be a jackass and, in fact, I am more likely to get what I want if I am not a jackass. See? Easy peasy.

    Also, for the record, I met a guy once while arguing with a Nice Guy(TM) who was complaining how nice guys never get girls. The other guy in the conversation was all like, wait, I’m nice and I get laid! (He totally was nice! He gave me back massages! And treated me like a person!) Guess which one got sexy times?

  248. LotusBen: Well, I don’t really care about what I’m saying and just sort of passing time. So that’s why I’m not doing any research.

    I’m shocked. SHOCKED!

  249. @255 AMM

    Or, more likely, you’re just repeating popular mythology..The sad part is that so many men (e.g., you and Ariel) feel the need to live up to this nonsense.

    I believe you that you prefer 60 year old women. And you’re welcome to believe that I and other men have other preferences. If you want to go argue the old “you don’t really want what you say you want” you’re welcome to that as well but it’s just not something that I find particuarlly interesting or informative. I can point you to the data in the studies like the one OKcupid did on who men message online and that’s all.

    I’ll also add that I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to be judgmetnal of men who prefer dating younger women. But I’m interested in exploring how and why we judge. If a 30+ woman decides that serious relationships/marriage are not for her, that she’s happily married to herself, and she’s happy with her friends and existing family, I don’t think anyone here would judge her for that. If furthermore she wants to spend her free time engaging in fun meaningless flings, I don’t think feminists would impugn her for not seeing something more serious. And if furthermore says she prefers younger men, we’d all say more power to her no?

    Now, obviously there are different social pressures and stigmas so i don’t mean to be too flippant about this. I’m well aware that deciding to be 30+ and unamarried is harder for women then for men. But what I’m trying to explore is how we distinguish that sort of good, noncomformist behavior from bad, peter-pan complex. I think just saying that older men act like peter pans merely by being attracted to college-age women, or even preferring sex with younger women, because college-age men are just boys and eek, calls for some more analysis.

  250. ArielNYC: I think just saying that older men act like peter pans merely by being attracted to college-age women, or even preferring sex with younger women, because college-age men are just boys and eek, calls for some more analysis.

    Reading comprehension. You need it.

  251. @263 Sheelzebub

    I’m sorry, are we still debating whether older men who broadcast to the world that they won’t date women their age are a bunch of choads? fine they’re a bunch of choads. Next.

  252. ArielNYC,

    You seem to be under the impression that feminists haven’t “explored” these issues exhaustively. Your repeated attempts to demonstrate some misandry here have failed, epically. Perhaps you should “explore” why you think its important to defending the norms of masculinity. I would recommend starting by interrogating what those norms are, why they exist and how they operate in the context of a broader set of social norms.

  253. ArielNYC: ’m sorry, are we still debating whether older men who broadcast to the world that they won’t date women their age are a bunch of choads? fine they’re a bunch of choads. Next.

    I’m sorry, did we ever say that it was horrible for men to be attracted to younger women? NO. We said just what you paraphrased above, and pointed out that straight women are attracted to younger men.

    How about instead of building straw arguments and generally acting like a patronizing trolling shithead, you use the shoehorn I’ll mail you to pry your head out of your ass? Until then, let the grownups talk, sparky.

  254. Sheelzebub: How about instead of building straw arguments and generally acting like a patronizing trolling shithead, you use the shoehorn I’ll mail you to pry your head out of your ass? Until then, let the grownups talk, sparky.

    Sheelzebub, have I mentioned lately that I love you?

  255. @Mr. Kristen J

    You seem to be under the impression that feminists haven’t “explored” these issues exhaustively.

    I respectfully disagree. By your logic we should never discuss anything because everything has already been discussed ad nauseum. I happen to think people bring their insights and unique set of experiences to any particular discussion and I’m more than willing to listen. And I’m certainly not averse to questioning and interrogating my own preferences and the norms I adhere to.

  256. No, by my logic you should not begin a discussion with the assumption that the individuals who think exhaustively about gender disagree with your views on gender because they haven’t “explored” the issue. Or as Sheelzebub said more succinctly by “generally acting like a patronizing trolling shithead.”

  257. @Mr. Kristen J.

    Interesting. So I propose we clarify why and how pass judgment on the relevant class of people discussed in the thread, beyond just saying such and such men are bunch of infantiles, and suddenly I’m necessarily patronizing every commenter here and assume nobody has ever discussed these issues before.

    @Sheelzebub

    did we ever say that it was horrible for men to be attracted to younger women? NO.

    No, but Jill and others did argue that it reflects some emotionally stunted behavior. So yes, commenters here did judge that, and my point was to clarify how we pass judgment on this

  258. ArielNYC: But what I’m trying to explore is how we distinguish that sort of good, nonconformist behavior from bad, peter-pan complex.

    Well, is the behavior non-conformist (a woman choosing to be single and having flings with any man that catches her fancy), or is it yet another tiresome retread of the same old bullshit we’ve seen hundreds of times before, more often than not used to undermine women’s sense of self-worth (“I’m not sexist, it’s just that young women are hotter”)? That would be one way of distinguishing between nonconformist behavior and the same old crap.

    And no, Ariel, we do not need the benefit of your guidance on what to “explore.” Thanks ever so much, though.

  259. @271 EG

    Point taken. Explore is a patronizing word and I’ll never use it again.

    I’ll rephrase my question: What sets apart a woman who doesn’t want marriage/serious relationships and prefers dating younger men and who acts out of authentic feminist desires and nonconformance to one who does the same thing and acts out of lack of maturity? And same for men.

  260. What sets apart a woman who doesn’t want marriage/serious relationships and prefers dating younger men and who acts out of authentic feminist desires and nonconformance to one who does the same thing and acts out of lack of maturity? And same for men.

    There are several problems with this question:
    1. It assumes that there is such as thing as “authentic feminist desire.”
    2. Does motivation really matter? We’re talking about red flags when it comes to online dating.
    3. This question seems akin the “Can black people be racist?” line of inquiry–not terribly interesting or productive.

  261. Ariel. Let me break this down again: being attracted to younger partners? Fine. Being attracted to younger partners *while refusing to consider partners of one’s own age*? Not fine, and a sign of anything from an overarching sense of entitlement, emotional stuntedness, issues with power dynamics, what-have-you. And trust me, the *poverinos* who claim they only want to date younger women to the exclusion of same-age peers because they need someone who can physically keep up with their youthful energy……are full of shit. Not just because I dated a lot of older guys when I was in my twenties (specifically because I *wasn’t* looking for commitment or children, and neither were they), and none of them (even the fit ones) had anywhere near my energy or the ability to burn the candle at both ends (aging! It is A Thing! Even if you don’t look the part!), but also….

    I’m a 44 year old woman. And guys my age hit on me. Some of them do so because they are attracted to women who they find attractive regardless of age. And some of them….because they think I’m 10-15 years younger than I am, because I do look that much younger (luck of the genetic draw, plus oily, olive-toned skin, plus staying out of tanning booths). Well, after a certain amount of chitchat there’s the inevitable question, “If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you?” When my reply is why not at all, I’m 44….maan, you oughta see some of these dudes walk back from that with due quickness. Even if they’re older than me. It’s always “uhh, wow….you don’t look your age…” but yeah—no longer interested. That quick turnaround isn’t due to appearance, or perceived fitness level, or perceived health level, or even children (in my geographic area, most people my age have grown children). No, it’s something different. What’s more, is that even if I *was* the age I was assumed to be, I would still be well into adulthood, well acquainted with independence and recognizing bullshit when I see it.

    So, sparky…err, Ariel, perhaps that’s something you’d like to unpack, since you’ve spent so much time here, no?

  262. Lotusben: I am not arguing that Frederick Douglass wasn’t a confident assertive guy. History supports the fact that he was, but it doesn’t support the idea that he was an asshole. Also, dude, you don’t need to do much research. I just checked wiki to back up what I remembered from studying him in school.

    I am arguing with your definition of confident and assertive because it seems to be the same as my definition of ‘asshole.’ One can be polite and well mannered without having to be a doormat.

  263. @La Lubu

    You think I need to unpack something because I haven’t been forthright enough about my own experience, or because you think only troubled people discuss gender issues in feminist spaces?

  264. The answer to your question is nothing, except a kyriarchal society that structures masculinity around the ability to dominate women.

    If you were to “explore” the questions, I listed above you might have reached that conclusion on your own.

  265. I think online dating is awesome, as a homebody who wasn’t into wasting time on people who weren’t potentially right for me. I agree with all these flags. Especially some mentioned in comments, like the “no fat chicks” guy and the “omg you didn’t respond to my message! it was a great, personalized message! do you think you’re too good for me or something?!” guy.

    My husband and I had extremely lopsided experiences with internet dating. I had been doing it on and off for 7 years, spent money using half a dozen different sites, and I met a hell of a lot of people. My husband did a search on match.com, wrote his profile with an eye to intriguing me, and he was done. And it’s not that I regret meeting all the people I did or having all the experiences I had, but let’s just say if the Annals had been around back then I would have been making pained semi-regular submissions.

    Sheelzebub: if your preference doesn’t include your own age, that speaks volumes, as far as I’m concerned.

    This. And I have never ever seen a woman iso women do this. Only men.

    ArielNYC: For the record I would be annoyed by someone who thought I wouldn’t be worthy of them once I got 10 years older. But I would have still have my fun with them and enjoy their company for what it’s worth (granted perhaps very little for some).

    Well, that’s your prerogative. I would delete their message(s) and continue my search.

    To be honest, I appreciated when guys put up any of these flags, because while obviously it sucks to see more ageist, misogynist, fatphobic, racist douchenozzles in the world, it saved me from wasting my time on them if that’s how they really felt. If I met Mr. Not-Interested-in-Women-My-Own-Age or Monsieur No-Fat-Chicks in a bookstore, say, or a bar, or if he didn’t note one of these little dealbreakers for me in his profile, how long would it take me to decide he’s not someone I want in my life? Maybe quickly, maybe less quickly, and then I’d have to expend the time and risk rejecting him. Whereas I didn’t want to give either of those guys one second of my attention in the first place. So for me online dating saved a ton of time, energy and morale. All valuable things when you’re picky about who you want in your life, and I believe being picky lends itself to finding happiness far more then settling does.

  266. @Mr. Kristen J.

    The answer to your question is nothing, except a kyriarchal society that structures masculinity around the ability to dominate women.

    And I don’t disagree with that. But it does boil down to a somewhat simplistic heuristic of if women do it’s great, and if men do it it’s patriarchal/dysfunctional/emotionally-stunted. I guess I was hoping for more generally-applicable principles, but maybe under current social conditions that’s the best answer we can come up with

  267. But it does boil down to a somewhat simplistic heuristic of if women do it’s great, and if men do it it’s patriarchal/dysfunctional/emotionally-stunted.

    Except nobody said that.

  268. ArielNYC: But it does boil down to a somewhat simplistic heuristic of if women do it’s great, and if men do it it’s patriarchal/dysfunctional/emotionally-stunted.

    A) Nobody’s said that;
    B) Is it really that common that women are, in fact, listing their preference for younger men so that this is A Thing?;
    C) Even if it is A Thing, there’s a little something called Context, sparkles.

  269. ArielNYC: No, but Jill and others did argue that it reflects some emotionally stunted behavior.

    No. She said, and everyone else said, that men who refused to consider women their own age, and only considered significantly younger women, were stunted. Not that men who were attracted to younger women were stunted, since those same men could also be sexually attracted to and consider relationships with women their own age.

    Again. Reading comprehension. You seem to lack it. And not for nothing, but it’s downright precious of you to bark questions at us about things we supposedly believe and things you’d like us to unpack when you can’t be bothered to read the entirety of what Jill or others here wrote. Having a discussion takes more than you issuing study questions and women falling into line to explain it all to you–you also have to read/listen. Which you haven’t been doing.

  270. ArielNYC: And I don’t disagree with that. But it does boil down to a somewhat simplistic heuristic of if women do it’s great, and if men do it it’s patriarchal/dysfunctional/emotionally-stunted.

    Or I could just go with my original point: Patronizing troll drowning in straw. No one here said that but you seem bound and determined to put words in our mouths.

  271. I’m not into guys who only want to date younger women because of my own experience. I’m not always going to BE this young (duh) and I’m okay with that. My 12-years-older ex was deathly terrified of aging (and growing up) and was hoping the age gap would save him from feeling like his woman was getting old. Not interested. I am my age, I like my age, I show my age, and I’m only interested in someone who feels the same way about themselves.

  272. La Lubu, have you tried dating significantly younger men? My experience has been that younger men *in general* are more open-minded when it comes to age.

    I’m 37 and recently married a younger man. My dating experience ended at 36, and is admittedly limited.

    HOWEVER, I had the time of my life! My best experiences were when I was 34-36, and I frequently dated drop-dead gorgeous men in their 20s (one was only 21). Sorry if this is inappropriate, but I’m talking tight muscular bodies and amazing sex! I found these guys to be less sexist than men my own age, and definitely less so than older men. Not one was put off by my age, and some actually liked me more when I disclosed it. They also usually wanted a relationship, and not just sex. Men my age and older were often condescending to me (taking me for being 21-26), acted like they were my father, or treated me like I was a dumb little barbie. No thanks.

    I’d also like to point out that everyone ages differently. I would not have been able to “land” men that hot in my 20s or early 30s. I still looked like a little girl back then. Somewhere around age 34 my super-scrawny body got curves. At 37, I feel I have the best body of my life. I’m happily married now, but do I still fantasize about those years with the hotties? Yes, I do!

    This indulgence was probably off topic, but I couldn’t resist chiming in due to the men on here mansplaining about what men supposedly want and why we should accept it. No man worth my time is close-minded when it comes to age, race, etc. And I’ve done quite well without them!

  273. LotusBen: Most women and most beta males adopt the behavior trait of being “nice” with the subconscious hope that, by conforming to other’s wishes, they will be rewarded.

    That “beta males” story you’ve bought into?
    1. Humans are not wolves. In particular, we are a gregarious species rather than a pack species.
    2. The wolves studied in captivity for whom the terms alpha/beta etc were coined do not act at all like wolf packs do in free-range wilderness environments: wild packs are family groups whose younger members eventually leave the pack when they find a mate, so that nearly every wolf in time becomes an “alpha” in their own family pack. Thus, the terminology is fundamentally flawed.

    This isn’t to say humans do not have dominance/submission hierarchies, because it’s obvious that we do. They’re just not actually particularly similar to the dominance/submission patterns displayed by traumatised captive wolves whose normal socialising/mating habits are restricted by the size of their exhibition area.

  274. Not that Ariel actually reads anything we say with any level of actual comprehension, but yes, I would think that a woman who refused to even consider dating men her own age had some issues. Being generally sexually attracted to people of a particular age is one thing; categorically rejecting people close to your own age as potential relationship material is another.

  275. Hmmm. People seem oddly (to me) defensive about the term “nice.” I guess being nice is a good thing after all. I always thought of it as half-hearted compliment you’d give someone when you couldn’t think of anything else to say about them: “She’s a really nice girl. He’s a really nice guy.” For someone who’s not great enough to be “wonderful” or compassionate enough to be “kind” or smart enough to be “thoughtful.” But they’re nice. You know, like a nice, relaxing Coldplay song. But apparently, in y’all’s understanding “being nice” is practically some moral imperative. Cool. Different connotations for the same word.

    But I think at a deeper level, this may reflect a clash of values. I’m seeing in some of your comments prioritzing other people’s needs, or strategy. Like being nice is good because it serves other people’s needs, or it’s good because it’s a good strategy for getting your own needs met, better than being an asshole for instance. On the other hand, I like to focus on my needs in the present moment. As in, I prefer to focus on doing what I want, being as I feel like, RIGHT NOW, rather than worrying too much about other people or what will happen to me in the future. So I don’t try to live for others, nor practice a strategy that will maximize my happy times over the course of my life. Because I want to have a vivid, honest, internally congruent feeling life RIGHT NOW. Sometimes people will judge this as nice, sometimes as being an asshole–that’s up to them.

    And I never encouraged being an asshole. I just pointed out, assholes achieve “success” within the framework of the game of our capitalistic, patriarchal society. And nice people don’t, although maybe I’m wrong about that, as many have argued.

    If I’ve been advocating anything, it’s only for you do whatever you want. If that includes being nice, well then that’s great. Do that.

  276. But apparently, in y’all’s understanding “being nice” is practically some moral imperative.

    It’s a basic standard for human interaction; folks should not expect cookies for being “nice” aka following norms of etiquette which minimise irritations and confrontations, this is just basic getting-along-with-the-world-at-large stuff.

    Of course “kind” and “thoughtful” are better than just “nice”. Nobody argued otherwise. But I have a hard time seeing how somebody could be kind/thoughtful/wonderful without also being “nice”.

  277. LotusBen: If I’ve been advocating anything, it’s only for you do whatever you want. If that includes being nice, well then that’s great. Do that.

    Holy CRAP! Dude on Internet says that I can…I can…do what I want? WHOA! I…I didn’t realize that before! Thank you Internet Dude for your dudely wisdom!

    WHOA! Look at me! Already not being nice to someone! It’s almost as if I have complex emotions or some shit! Like…maybe…I can be polite sometimes and….and generally engage in good faith? But…but still…maybe…deviate from that general behavior? Like, if it’s warranted or something?

    I don’t know y’all, this shit is complicated. I’m glad we have LotusBen to explain How Things Work to us.

  278. In fact, let’s have a straw poll: does anyone here know anybody they think is kind/thoughtful/wonderful whom they would not also describe as “nice”?

    I can think of entertainers whose performances I enjoy whom I suspect are probably not especially “nice”, but when I use the word “wonderful” about them it’s only about their performance, seeing as I don’t actually know them at all.

  279. FWIW, I’m pretty sure that Shoshie is generally a “nice” person, even if she is occasionally rude to obtusely proud self-proclaimed arseholes.

  280. Eh. For me, “nice” is a non-descriptive adjective. It’s what you say about someone when you have nothing bad to say but you don’t have anything specifically good to say. Or you don’t want to say them/they annoy you or aren’t your cup of tea but they don’t strike you as evil.

    I mean, me replying to, “Did you meet my SO/cousin/friend at the party last night” with “Yeah, s/he seemed nice” really isn’t saying anything at all.

    Proclaiming your niceness is like being really proud that you brush your teeth every day, or you don’t steal, or you don’t litter. It’s the baseline, it’s nothing that makes you stand out. I did my math homework faithfully in high school; I still struggled with the subject and my faithful homework ethic didn’t get me an A. (Really, I squeaked by with a C, and I think that was because my teacher took pity on me.) I shower and groom myself and dress professionally, I show up to work on time, and I do my work. But that’s expected of me. That doesn’t entitle me to anything more than my paycheck.

    So being nice is like that. Being courteous and decent will usually get you that in return, but no more.

  281. LotusBen: As in, I prefer to focus on doing what I want, being as I feel like, RIGHT NOW, rather than worrying too much about other people or what will happen to me in the future.

    In other words, the ‘Selfish Dickhead’ strategy. Rock on with your bad self.

    LotusBen: But apparently, in y’all’s understanding “being nice” is practically some moral imperative.

    Fancy that, people thinking it’s a moral imperative to treat others with respect instead of blowing them off or gratuitously snarling at them. How did we ever get that silly idea into our pretty little heads? Good thing you’re here to examine it for us, seeing how we’re all too simple and deluded by SOCIETY’S RULES to have considered the intricacies of niceness. What would we ever do without you?

  282. LOL Shoshie. . .I take it you believe I’m condescending, and that this either annoys or amuses you–or both. Cool. I definitely don’t think I know how things work though, although I do like long, rambling pontifications about my views. And sometimes I’m even polite.

    I hear you Sheezlebub about being nice as a baseline social norm that people are expected to follow. Which is why I think it’s pretty fucking stupid. I mean I steal sometimes, I don’t always shower, I’ve been fired from being late to work, and I’m not always nice. So what? I know this is a public website and feminism is internally diverse…but I think it says something about the USA in 2011 that even on a website dedicated to a supposedly subservise movement I’m seeing people getting pissed off because I’m attacking niceness. I mean what happened to being a bitch? Has any revolutionary, or truly great person, worried about being “nice”? Now I’m aware I’m triggered on my own issues now and conflating things and perhaps no one wants to hear any of this. But it disgusts me how in today’s world people idolize mediocrity over everything else. Picasso, Dworkin, Shakespeare, Einstein, Sanger, Emma Goldman, Lao Tzu, Frederick Douglass, Joan of Arc, Karl Marx–take your pick. . .I doubt any of them if they were alive today would be defending niceness on an internet forum. Course I doubt any of them would be attacking niceness on an internet forum either. *blushes*

  283. Igglanova…shit, I guess I need to consider what I’m saying that is sounding so condescending. I mean these are just my own stupid views. I mean if anything I’m insecure so I’m trying to feign confidence here, it’s not like deep down I’m thinking about your “pretty little heads.” I mean if anything, the experts are on your side–Christianity was all about being nice, as well as most other religions, Utilitarianism, etc. etc. And we’re all deluded, if not by society, than by something else. So I just disagree with some of the people here on some things. That’s all. And agree with them on other things, too.

  284. @Katya

    Indeed, I didn’t engage with the question of how big of a smelly turd guys who declare to the to the world they don’t date older women really really are.
    Most of my posts were about looking at the actual messaging behavior of older men, trying to figure out the cause of the discrepancy between their messsaging behavior and that of their female peers, and finally trying to tease out why we judge older men for being supposedly being immature for showing a strong sexual interest in much younger women, separate from what these men claim they look for online. Maybe it was somewhat tangential to and not quite as interesting as the question of Why are some older men such blatantly exclusionary jerks and so hoplessly delusional in their stated online preferences (and they are), but I thought it would broaden the conversation a bit.

  285. I’m feeling sad and confused. I want to be understood and when I read posts by igglanova or shoshie acting like I’m condenscending I think, “they’re not hearing what I’m actually saying.” I want to know what specifically I said that has annoyed people. Because I want to be able to express dissenting views on here or other websites and be understood and not have people get defensive. I have a history of trolling in my younger years, and though I’ve been totally honest and in good faith on this thread…I fear some of the habits I’ve picked up from trolling have stayed with me and subconsiously prevent me from getting my point across.

    I don’t expect anyone to help me, but if you are willing to, I’d like that.

  286. LotusBen: Christianity was, oddly enough, not about being nice at all. Like every other religion in the history of the world, it’s about blood. Sigh. And just because you happen to be a revolutionary, doesn’t mean that you have to bully everyone around you. (Also, not showering? That’s really, deeply rude to everyone who has to encounter you throughout the day. And disgusting.)

    Tigtog: Um, me. Really. I put on a good front, but I’m really an awful horrible person. I buy toys for toy drives because I’m actually shopping for my inner child. I’m efficiently killing myself with volunteer work, because I need the work experience and I hate sitting at home.
    At the volunteer jobs, I often try to figure out who’s lost based on their clothing. Long braids and long dresses and skirts on all the women tend to make me roll my eyes, as I can’t figure out what that particular family would want with a museum, or a library. But if they *are* lost, I’m happy to help, or happy to explain where things are.
    I’ve only held four jobs in my life that didn’t involve being around small children. I don’t even really *like* kids, and don’t plan to be a parent. That said, I’m happy to explain activities to them or help them find a book or a lost toy.
    I grumble when the family who employees me calls me and disrupts my schedule, but at the end of the day, I’m there, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.
    I was sexually attracted to a friend- while she was in the psychiatric ward. (And I’ve never, ever said a word about this, and I visited her nearly every day.) I urged her to consider taking anti-depressants, when in reality, they did shit for me and I’ve been off all meds since I graduated from college.
    I go to concerts more often than I go to church. I listen to really, really rude music: punk rock, goth rock, metal. I mosh. Heck, one of my favorite local bands has a swear word in their name.

    So, yeah, I’m a horrible person, but everyone around me thinks I’m not.

  287. LotusBen: I want to know what specifically I said that has annoyed people.
    LotusBen: It disgusts me how in today’s world people idolize mediocrity over everything else.

    These two quotes seem to sum up the situation quite nicely. You’re a snob and a bit of a brat, and you just don’t get that people’s tastes are different, and that bullying your way through life might work, but it’s going to drive away the people who you’re going to need most. Yeah, you probably think you can get through life all on your own, accompanied, perhaps by the occasionally fucktoy who you will dispose of as soon as she exhibits a brain or ages beyond your acceptable parameters.
    Also, Picasso? LOL. Occasional flashes of brilliance, but I wouldn’t pretend he’s all that as an artist. You probably think Warhol and Ono were artists too.

  288. Dawn: Dawn 12.7.2011 at 3:00 pm
    La Lubu, have you tried dating significantly younger men? My experience has been that younger men *in general* are more open-minded when it comes to age.

    That’s been problematic for some people here, so how about a different way of putting it: I have found that people whose politics and lifestyle I find compatible tend to be younger than I am. I’ve made life choices that are unusual for my age group, but are becoming more common, so there are more people like me in younger age groups.

    And yes, younger people tend to be more flexible in general so find it easier to make the compromises that are necessary to make a relationship work. IMO it’s important not to overreach this into “they make all the compromises”. I am not sure how to put that in a way that doesn’t generate the “you think we haven’t thought of that” response, because honestly, I think some women don’t think of it in those terms. I know a lot of men don’t, which makes me suspect that while it’s likely fewer women do, I doubt that fewer=none.

  289. I’m a bit late to this, but I’m de-lurking to vent about a pet peeve (mentioned already by AJ, #224): using the word “pedophile” to refer to men attracted to women in their 20s or even older, despite the fact that pedophilia is actually an attraction towards children. The original article and a few commenters on here have suggested that pursuing young (or young-looking) adult women makes a man a pedophile. In addition to irking my inner language nerd, the misuse of this term in this context strikes me as pretty offensive.

    First off, it seems like it could be offensive to survivors of abuse by actual pedophiles. Calling people pedophiles when they are not seems like a lazy way of manipulating the emotions of your readers. It’s a word that provokes strong feelings of disgust and anger in a lot of people, since sexual abuse of children is such a horrible thing. It seems that by misusing the word, people are attempting to provoke those same feelings towards people whose actions are at worst skeevy or immature, not illegal and morally repugnant.

    Also, it seems quite condescending towards young women. The power dynamic between a 40-ish man and a 20-ish woman in a sexual relationship is nothing like the dynamic between a pedophile and his/her victim. Most blatantly obvious difference: the former is a consensual relationship. Abused children sometimes don’t even have the vocabulary to understand or explain what has happened to them. A young adult, however, is still an adult, with agency and at least some ability to navigate a sexual or romantic relationship.

    1. I’m a bit late to this, but I’m de-lurking to vent about a pet peeve (mentioned already by AJ, #224): using the word “pedophile” to refer to men attracted to women in their 20s or even older, despite the fact that pedophilia is actually an attraction towards children. The original article and a few commenters on here have suggested that pursuing young (or young-looking) adult women makes a man a pedophile. In addition to irking my inner language nerd, the misuse of this term in this context strikes me as pretty offensive.

      No one said that, though?

  290. No one here called those men pedophiles.

    My God. Can people put forth an argument against something that was actually said? Or is it just more fun to drown in straw these days?

  291. @Sheelzebub

    Like how that one comment ( I forget who) said that men who only date younger women are really aliens who want younger women so they can harvest their eggs and create a hybrid race of slaves on intergalactic cruise ships.

  292. The word came up in that context in the original article, which is mostly what I was responding to. Also, comments #20 and #80 on here, unless I was massively misreading them.

  293. LotusBen: I’m feeling sad and confused. I want to be understood and when I read posts by igglanova or shoshie acting like I’m condenscending I think, “they’re not hearing what I’m actually saying.” I want to know what specifically I said that has annoyed people. Because I want to be able to express dissenting views on here or other websites and be understood and not have people get defensive. I have a history of trolling in my younger years, and though I’ve been totally honest and in good faith on this thread…I fear some of the habits I’ve picked up from trolling have stayed with me and subconsiously prevent me from getting my point across.

    I don’t expect anyone to help me, but if you are willing to, I’d like that.

    ::sigh::

    OK, I’m actually feeling nicer now. You read as condescending because rehash arguments and ideas that have been discussed multiple times in this community (and in feminism in general). And you state them like you’re the first one to have an opinion about niceness. You don’t read. For instance, in comment 258 I specifically explain why it’s wrong to conflate niceness with being a doormat. You also go back and forth a lot and then complain when people don’t get what you’re saying. For instance, you go on a tirade about jerks and nice people, then say, no, you don’t consider yourself nice, then get upset when people accuse you of ID-ing as a jerk. You’re the one who originally set up the jerk/nice person dichotomy, not us.

    My advice, if you really want to engage on Feminsite? Lurk. Read what people say. Actually read it. I feel like a lot of internet commenters are like the proverbial conversationalist who is waiting to speak instead of listening. Don’t feel the need to add “the male opinion”. Trust me…we are aware of it. Because patriarchy. This is a space for our voices to be heard and, if you really want to engage in good faith, you need to respect that.

  294. LotusBen: but I think it says something about the USA in 2011 that even on a website dedicated to a supposedly subservise movement I’m seeing people getting pissed off because I’m attacking niceness.

    You really don’t understand why people are pissed off at you, do you? It has nothing to do with “attacking niceness.” It has everything to do with being a patronizing mansplaining creep who thinks all those slaves were just trying to make massa’s life easier by being “nice.”

    LotusBen: But it disgusts me how in today’s world people idolize mediocrity over everything else.

    What, do you get your political philosophy from The Incredibles? Or Ayn Rand, maybe?

  295. LotusBen: I mean if anything, the experts are on your side–Christianity was all about being nice, as well as most other religions, Utilitarianism, etc. etc.

    Yeah, those Inquisitors and Crusaders were just being NICE to the Jews and the Saracens! And all those altar boys, and girls in the Magdalen Laundries, and all those people who contracted AIDS because religious groups refused to distribute condoms in areas with high infection rates.

  296. LotusBen: I’m feeling sad and confused. I want to be understood and when I read posts by igglanova or shoshie acting like I’m condenscending I think, “they’re not hearing what I’m actually saying.” I want to know what specifically I said that has annoyed people. Because I want to be able to express dissenting views on here or other websites and be understood and not have people get defensive. I have a history of trolling in my younger years, and though I’ve been totally honest and in good faith on this thread…I fear some of the habits I’ve picked up from trolling have stayed with me and subconsiously prevent me from getting my point across.

    I don’t expect anyone to help me, but if you are willing to, I’d like that.

    So, you want us to be nice to you?

    Mediocrity does not impress us. Sorry, pumpkin.

  297. LotusBen: As in, I prefer to focus on doing what I want, being as I feel like, RIGHT NOW, rather than worrying too much about other people or what will happen to me in the future.

    Sure, I can’t imagine why anybody would think you were advocating being an asshole when you were just advocating focusing on getting immediate gratification for yourself rather than “worrying”–or as I like to put it–“caring” about other people. Damn, if I did that, even setting aside how it would affect other people, my overwhelming desire not to get out of bed until noon would prevent me from holding down a job.

    tigtog: FWIW, I’m pretty sure that Shoshie is generally a “nice” person, even if she is occasionally rude to obtusely proud self-proclaimed arseholes.

    Oh, I disagree. I’m pretty sure that Shoshie is generally a “nice” person, because she is occasionally rude to obtusely proud self-proclaimed arseholes.

    LotusBen: Christianity was all about being nice

    As a Jew, I would like to note that I find “all about being nice” to be a vast overstatement of the role niceness has played in the history of Christianity.

    ArielNYC: Most of my posts were about looking at the actual messaging behavior of older men, trying to figure out the cause of the discrepancy between their messsaging behavior and that of their female peers, and finally trying to tease out why we judge older men for being supposedly being immature for showing a strong sexual interest in much younger women, separate from what these men claim they look for online. Maybe it was somewhat tangential to and not quite as interesting as the question of Why are some older men such blatantly exclusionary jerks and so hoplessly delusional in their stated online preferences (and they are), but I thought it would broaden the conversation a bit.

    Gee, thanks. What would we ladies do without you to help us “broaden” the conversation? We might actually discuss things that we were interested in, like the topic. The topic was not “why do we judge these older men.” The topic was “elements in a man’s on-line dating profile that should make you think twice about him as a potential romantic partner and why.” I know it’s upsetting to be in a place where women set the topic of discussion and then persist in discussing it even when you think they should be discussing something else, but try to get used to it.

    LotusBen: I don’t expect anyone to help me, but if you are willing to, I’d like that.

    OK. Go back and read some some recent back threads. Pay attention to who is disagreeing with whom and how they are expressing that disagreement. When you feel ready to try commenting again, err on the side of giving people the benefit of the doubt and not making universal pronouncements about appropriate goals. Earn some cred that way.

    Politicalguineapig: So, yeah, I’m a horrible person, but everyone around me thinks I’m not.

    Not in my opinion. In my opinion, being a horrible or good person depends not on your innermost thoughts and feelings but on your effect on the people around you. You know how we’re always saying that good intent doesn’t make doing asshole things OK? It works the other way round as well.

  298. Wow. This thread. (Sorry, nothing really to add here, I’m just wired from a bad work week and not sleeping.)

    You know, I could argue that the core idea underlying Christianity as it appears in the New Testament is “be nice”. It’s just not a version of “nice” that I think Lotus Ben would recognize from Alphaville.

  299. LC: I know it’s upsetting to be in a place where women set the topic of discussion and then persist in discussing it even when you think they should be discussing something else, but try to get used to it.

    Love.

  300. boo, wonky quoting strikes again.

    Also,

    Politicalguineapig: and you just don’t get that people’s tastes are different…..
    Also, Picasso? LOL. Occasional flashes of brilliance, but I wouldn’t pretend he’s all that as an artist. You probably think Warhol and Ono were artists too.

    No comment.

  301. Let’s not conflate Jesus and Christianity. Jesus was all about being nice. Many Christians, and sometimes Christianity on the whole don’t have a very good grasp on what Jesus was all about.

  302. EG: I know it’s upsetting to be in a place where women set the topic of discussion and then persist in discussing it even when you think they should be discussing something else, but try to get used to it.

    This sentence had me hopelessly in giggles.

  303. Rather belated, but I’d like to address this point from Jill’s original post;

    it’s that a dude who lists his upper age limit as two or three years younger than himself is probably not looking for an equal partner.

    I see a not insignifcant number of women in their 20s who state that they would date 30+ year old men but not someone their exact age. Do I think these women look for unequal relationships? I dunno, I’m sure some do. I’m sure others would say that they’re so mature for their age that their male peers can’t keep or some such. Are they wrong to think that? Is it wrong for older men to mirror this attitude?
    I do wonder why a 28 year old woman would state she would be ok with a 29 year old man but not a 27-28 year old man. Maybe it’s just unthinking social convention? Wanting to feel like the young partner?

  304. So it’s fine that you guys don’t like me. I’m over it. I do think it’s funny how people seem to not give others the benefit of the doubt when interpreting what they’re saying on the internet. Please don’t interrupt that as an attack because I think I do it, too. Probably has something to do with the lack of tone of voice and facial expression cues.

    I know you don’t care for my views, but I’ll try to add perspective to and clarify a couple last things I was saying earlier. I don’t have arguments. I don’t make points. I express myself. So that’s what I was doing earlier. I wasn’t explaining or informing you of anything, except my subjective view of the world and my life. Now I suppose, this being a political blog, you’re more interested in political or intellectual arguments, so that’s what you’re looking for, and that’s what you see. But my desire is only to express myself and communicate with like-minded people. And I’ve been interested in this blog because I feel pretty alienated from mainstream society in general (ha, not sure if that come across yet), and specifically from conventional gender roles. I’ve always been a bit on the queer side I suppose. And I want to meet others that think like me. And this blog seem to discuss a lot of “personal” issues, as opposed to feministing.com or something, which seems to be more straight-forwardly political (in my view).

    But people here still seem pretty ideological, confident about the rightness of their views, and oriented toward political activism. So this is likely not the place for me as I’m more of an apathetic nihilist. I can pick up on the vibe of a place eventually, even if I’m a bit slow, lol. But anyway, I don’t know if anyone was geniunely annoyed at me or if it was more just a perfunctory let’s slap down the troll, but if you were, sorry for the disruption.

    P.S. I’m worried about people misinterpreting what I’m saying. This post of mine seems a bit passive aggressive or martyrish. But it’s not meant to be. I feel fine, and you seem like cool people. Okay.

  305. “Please don’t interrupt that as an attack” in the first paragraph was supposed to read as “Please don’t interpret that as an attack.”

  306. EG: Thing is, I don’t want to be a good person. I dread the idea of going to Heaven. Yes, I may do some good things, but what I really need to do is some serious sinning.

    Groggette: Why no comment? Warhol was vastly over-rated, Ono’s an exhibitionist on a grand scale, and Piccasso had maybe three standout pieces. Your milage may vary, but I don’t think Picasso’s stuff could stack up against Georgia O Keefe’s pieces.

  307. AerialNYC: Personally, I don’t want to date anyone who’s the same age as either of my younger siblings. (sib 1 is two years younger, sib 2 is four years younger.)
    So, say that 28 year old woman has a younger sibling who’s 27, but no older siblings. She might be more comfortable dating someone who wouldn’t be in her sibling’s peer group. Or she might be planning on marrying someone, and men at 28 aren’t usually very marriage minded- though that varies wildly depending on the location.

  308. LotusBen: So it’s fine that you guys don’t like me. I’m over it. I do think it’s funny how people seem to not give others the benefit of the doubt when interpreting what they’re saying on the internet. Please don’t interrupt that as an attack because I think I do it, too. Probably has something to do with the lack of tone of voice and facial expression cues.

    Jesus, I can practically see your lower lip quivering from here.

    Dude, you fucking come on a feminist blog and try to mansplain why we shouldn’t consider men who refuse to date women their own age (even though they ask much-younger women to date men their own age) as creepy and undateable, and now you’re hurt that we’re not taking the time to explain in great detail to you why you’re an offensive git?

    Here’s a ladder. Get over yourself.

  309. I really wanted to find a picture of Dave Foley and Kevin McDonald doing the ‘Nobody Likes Us’ guys and make a gif to post here, as I find it fitting, but I couldn’t find it.

    Google image search, you fucking fail.

  310. @Politicalguineapig

    Personally, I don’t want to date anyone who’s the same age as either of my younger siblings.

    That’s certainly interesting. But also as a man it makes zero sense to me. If I had a sister a year younger than me it wouldn’t make me feel weird to date women her age. But then again I read somewhere that the Westermack Effect impacts women a bit more strongly than men, so who knows.

    As for being marriage material, I can’t quite see why a man who’s older than you by a year would be matrimonial bliss whereas someone exactly your age would be hopelessly unready for primetime.

  311. Zuzu…I understand there’s been a lot of people commenting on here and it’s easy to get posters mixed up. But I didn’t come here to defend men who refuse to date women their own age. Actually, in my first post on this thread, Post #233, I said:

    “I think a guy who will only date women younger than himself also reveals either a lack of self-awareness or predatory impulses or both.”

    and

    “So no offense to older creepy guys, but they should probably not venture too far out of their “league.'”

    And that’s what I think. I’d say y’all are making a good choice by avoiding said individuals, frankly.

    “

  312. LC: Wow. This thread.

    Just re-posting that because oh holy fucking shit, at this point it can. not. be. said. enough.

  316. PGP, do you really not see the unintentional humor in you chastising someone for not understanding that different people have different preferences… and then in the same comment making fun of an artist he mentioned, and claiming he has poor choice in art??

  318. Groggette: Ok, now I see why you found it funny. I figured, if he was holding up Picasso as a great artist and then deploring the idolization of mediocrity, it was ripe for mockery. Seriously, he listed Picasso as being right up there with Leonardo da Vinci and Michealangelo. They’re not remotely close to the same level in terms of artistic ability.

    AerialNYC: In terms of personal preference, I find that people who are older then me or in my age group are easier to talk to, and are more likely to share my interests. Sib 1’s age group is all over the map in terms of social maturation, and sib 2’s age group is, mostly college boys or military, and I have no interest in fishing from those pools. As for matrimony; well, men tend to mature much more slowly then women. So a young man from sib 1’s age group is actually three years younger than I am, mentally speaking.
    In an urban area, men don’t really think about settling down until about 30 or 35. So marriage would be totally off a 28-year-old or 27-year -old man’s radar.

  319. With age preference, There’s also a demographic issue in that starting around the mid twenties age range, men start dying off quicker than women. You’d think it would make sense for men, especially men beyond their twenties, to go after women their same age or older. But this is also dependent upon women seeking men of a younger age than they themselves are. If women aren’t seeking younger men, as men age they’d benefit from looking toward younger women – because those cohorts also lack men of equal age.

  320. Cabbs: I don’t think that’s right. Men who are 17 to 25 are more likely to get into accidents, but once they hit 25, the rates stay pretty consistent with women’s mortality. Their risks go up again at 50, but they still aren’t dying off wholesale.
    Men prefer younger women because they want to be in control and don’t need anything in a partner besides prettiness.

  321. Men prefer younger women because they want to be in control and don’t need anything in a partner besides prettiness.

    Whoa. That’s like saying that women prefer older men because all they want is maturity, nevermind looks, brains, humor etc. I think it’s fair to say people want lots of different things. They just don’t weigh them equally, as well as equally all points in life. And to get back to the original point of the piece, I’m sure there are lots of men in their 30s who are not looking to settle down and just want to have fun. And fun can be obviously very self-indulgent and superficial (as well as unattainable and delusional).
    So in that sense a 30 year old man who prefers to have a fling with a 20 year old woman over a 30 year old woman and lists his age limit as 27 doesn’t strike me as necessarily loaded with ulterior motives. Which is not to say it’s not at all suspicious and shouldn’t raise a red flag. But if you as a woman (e.g. Jill) don’t find younger men attractive, you’re probably more likely to attribute a sinister motive to a man who does find younger women attractive because this attraction seems otherwise inexplicable. I dunno, just thinking out loud here.

  322. Jill: WORD.Althoughhonestly,ifadudehas“nofatwomen,sorrynotmytype”inhisprofile,I’mstillgoingtothinkhe’sanasshole.Becausethereare5,000differentphysicalcharacteristicsthatdon’tappealtome,butIdon’tlisttheminmyonlinedatingprofile.IsaywhatIamlookingfor,andifsomeonemessagesmewhoisn’tmytypeforwhateverreason,Ijustdon’trespond.NoneedtopubliclydeclarethatIfindsomepeoples’bodiesunattractive.It’snotnecessary,itdoesnothing,andit’sjustmean.Especiallywhenyou’retargetingbodiesthatareoftenbashedandtalkedaboutasifthey’relessworthy.

    Right on

  323. So I’m on Ok Cupid (a friend suggested it, and I assumed that it HAD to be classier than the casual encounters section of Craig’s List). Here’s a red flag: some asshole messaged me last Friday to tell me that he needed me to get into a swingers’ party. No “Hi, how are you?” or “Hi, my name is…” Nope. All he said was, and I quote “Just need a female to get me in. You can play or just enjoy food and drink.” Like I’m a Portable Pussy for Display, or something.

  324. ArielNYC: But if you as a woman (e.g. Jill) don’t find younger men attractive, you’re probably more likely to attribute a sinister motive to a man who does find younger women attractive because this attraction seems otherwise inexplicable.

    Let me assure you that if you as a woman (e.g. me) do find younger men attractive, you’re equally likely to attribute a sinister motive to a man who does find younger women and only younger women attractive because this preference fits right in with this patriarchal culture and its messages about what women are good for.

  325. ArielNYC: A man who is attracted to a woman’s brains isn’t a man, he’s a zombie. And in any case, a man who’s dating waaay outside of his age range isn’t going to sit around having philosophical discussions with his latest conquest partner.

  326. EG: I’ve been a bit concerned about the future of the series, actually, as Gordianus can’t go on forever, and he’s already at an advanced age; but surely Saylor won’t be able to turn away from writing a murder mystery set during the confusion and fear following Caesar’s assassination? I like Diana; I think she could take over the family business, though isn’t one of his sons also an investigator?

    I didn’t know that Saylor was gay, let alone that he got his start writing gay erotica.

    Did you read his marvelous essay on the otherwise great TV show Rome‘s decision to portray Cleopatra as a drug-addled, promiscuous idiot? I do love his portrayal of Cleopatra, and Antony saying that she reminds him of a young Julius Caesar. Not only do I think it’s wonderfully accurate, but it adds a whole new dimension to Antony’s relationship with Caesar as well. Anyway, if you haven’t read it, the essay is linked to on his website, I think.

    )This isn’t exactly on-topic, and I don’t know if EG is still reading this thread, but I did want to answer her.) I didn’t see “Rome,” and haven’t read Saylor’s essay, but will do so over the weekend. I was never that fascinated by Roman history; in college I studied only Late Roman and Byzantine history. But Saylor’s novels have been a very pleasant and painless way to learn something about the late Roman Republic! I find a lot of his characterizations — including Caesar, Cleopatra, and, of course, Cicero, along with so many other people I knew little or nothing about — quite human and fascinating, and far from the usual cardboard portrayals of historical personages that one tends to encounter. Yes, I do remember Antony’s comment about Cleopatra reminding him of Caesar.

    Gordianus is definitely getting a little long in the tooth; he’ll be in his late 60’s by the time Caesar is assassinated, and about 80 if Saylor every tries to bring the story all the way down to, say, Actium. But I can’t imagine that Saylor will end Gordianus’s career before writing a book placing him at or around one of the handful of most famous murders in history, of one of the most famous people in history. (After all, how many other people have months named after them? Only one other, I guess. And his name has been used ever since to mean ruler or emperor, not only in Rome but in Germany and Russia.)

    Maybe he will have Diana take over, perhaps together with his older son Eco, who’s also in the business of being an ancient Roman private investigator! His younger son Meto, of course, is a soldier, rumored to be one of the voraciously bisexual Caesar’s lovers.

    I first assumed Saylor was gay, before my son (who gave a book report on one of the books when he was in 6th grade) told me about the gay erotic fiction background, when I read one of the earlier books, Catalina’s Riddle, about the Cataline conspiracy. There was one scene, in which Gordianus is alone with Catalina and one can tell how attracted he is to him, and there’s a physical description of Catalina, that I didn’t think was very likely at all to have been written by a straight man. Even if a straight man could have written that scene, how many would be secure enough to do so?

  327. PS, and probably my final word on this subject!: I read the review of the Cleopatra episode of Rome; it sounds horrible. Although the rest of the series was apparently better than I assumed. The mention of the depiction of Pompey’s murder in Egypt reminds me that his is another Saylor characterization I very much enjoyed. (The very first history paper I ever wrote, in 8th grade, was about Pompey. Probably because I found a book about him on my parents’ bookshelves.)

    This is a link to a description of Saylor’s forthcoming “Seven Wonders of the World” book, which is apparently more a collection of short stories than a novel: http://www.stevensaylor.com/bio.html#Anchor-49575

  328. I am definitely still reading and still interested, Donna! (To everybody else, please forgive me for the continued off-topic derail and skip this comment.)

    Rome‘s first season, in my considered opinion, was awesome, and I highly recommend it. The second season isn’t bad, and it’s certainly worth watching if you love the first season, which I did, but not only does it have the terrible characterization of Cleopatra, but it also compressed about fifteen years into what seems to be six months. And it takes quite a few liberties. (It also has one of my favorite lines in the series, in the final episode, spoken by Atia, a character I quite love: “I know what you’re thinking. You’re thinking ‘I will kill you.’ Better women than you have thought that about me. Go and look for them now.”

    Catalina’s Riddle was the first one I read as well, and I remember quite clearly the scene you’re thinking of. Would you believe that it didn’t even strike me as unusual? I was reading the novel as part of an undergrad Latin class I was auditing in order to keep up my now sadly degenerated skill with the language, and in the previous two years I’d basically been to Latin boot camp to learn the language, and then taken two grad-level classes in which I was way over my head in order not to lose the language, and by that point, I had been so thoroughly immersed in what the Ancient Roman Experts are fairly sure was Ancient Roman culture, including their attitudes toward sexuality, that I read that and was just like “Sure, yeah, that’s pretty much how they thought about sexuality back then; I like historical accuracy.”

    But now that you mention it, of course, it makes perfect sense as being a scene handled so well in part because the author is gay!

    See, this era has always been my favorite era of ancient history (yes, I am enough of a geek to have a favorite era of ancient history), between the self-righteousness of the Republic and the Order of the Empire, the chaos of the triumvirates in between. I do hope Gordianus makes it to Actium, if only because I have yet to read an explanation of what happened there that doesn’t come down to “Well, you know how women and foreigners are irrational and unreliable, and of course Antony was so befuddled by love, he lost all his military acumen,” and I just have a very, very hard time buying that that’s how and why things went down the way they did.

  329. EG: Wasn’t Marc Antony reckoned to be a pretty dim bulb by his peers even before Cleopatra came along? I always figured she looked for a man who wasn’t any match for her intellectually.

  330. [With apologies for continuing the derail, although I do plan to post next a comment that’s at least vaguely on-topic! I suppose a private message feature would be useful for this sort of digression, although I understand as well as anyone the need for anonymity and to protect against possible harassment; after all, DonnaL is not my real name, and in my daily life I don’t go around referring to my history — not that I’d characterize myself as exactly “stealth.”]

    Thanks, EG. You make me want very much to watch at least the first season of Rome; I’ve already read the episode guide on Wikipedia!

    I think it’s interesting that everyone seems to be aware of the existence of homosexuality in ancient Greece, but one rarely hears about it connection with the “manly” Romans, or sees it portrayed in popular culture — notwithstanding Laurence Olivier’s extremely suggestive (for 1960) performance in Spartacus (speaking of famous men known for having been bisexual)! And this despite Caesar himself, and emperors like Trajan and, most famously, Hadrian, whose beloved, deified Antinous is the subject of statuary found all over the former Empire, including, ironically enough, at the Vatican. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Marguerite Yourcenar (who seems virtually unknown in the U.S.A. these days despite having been quite popular once upon a time, not to mention the first woman ever elected to the Académie française in its 350-year history), but her 1951 novel Memoirs of Hadrian is very much about Hadrian’s love and loss of Antinous. I finally read it a few years ago before my son and I went to Rome for two weeks as my high school graduation present for him (we spent most of our time in museums, of course!); the book is a little slow and “philosophical” for current tastes, but well worth reading. I had intended to read it for many years because I was aware of my mother’s friendship with Mme. Yourcenar, who was one of her professors at Sarah Lawrence, where she attended college beginning shortly after her arrival in the U.S. in 1943 (they had some scholarships available for Jewish refugees, despite their deserved reputation at the time for being a haven for the daughters of wealthy Gentiles). My mother gravitated to Mme. Yourcenar, I’m sure, because they were both European and my mother had much more in common with her than with most of her sheltered classmates, whom she used to refer to as “spoiled rich girls.” (My mother was a CPUSA member for a while later in the 1940’s, while she was in law school. I guess I can reveal that secret, now that she’s been dead for 35 years.) From what my mother told me, Yourcenar was the first essentially “out” lesbian my mother knew. She also knew Grace Frick, Yourcenar’s lifetime companion and translator; I have a letter Yourcenar wrote to my mother about their attempts to adopt a baby, which I gave a copy of some years ago to someone who was working on a book about that period of Yourcenar’s life; I don’t think it’s been published. (I also found a page of my mother’s handwriting in German that appears to be something she wrote to herself about Yourcenar, suggesting to me that she had a major crush on her, although I doubt there was any kind of physical relationship.)

  331. I actually, embarrassingly, had never before heard of Professor Yourcenar! She sounds fascinating and I will definitely look forward to reading her novel. And I must add that your family continues to fascinate me. Maybe one day you’ll write a book about them? You and yours seem to have had more than your share of extraordinary experiences–too many of them terrible ones, of course, but ones worth sharing.

    And you’re a red diaper baby (sort of)! Honestly, the more I learn about you and your family, the more I want to know. If there were a way to pass you my personal contact info, I would definitely do so.

  332. Jill: Noone said that, though?

    sourpuss:

    Or maybe he’s just a pedophile? Maybe he’s a rapist who finds the inexperience of younger women easier to manipulate?

    The description you said fits maybe 1% of men at 40 looking for young women to date. My description fits 99% of them.

  333. EG: And you’re a red diaper baby (sort of)! Honestly, the more I learn about you and your family, the more I want to know. If there were a way to pass you my personal contact info, I would definitely do so.

    Ha! By the time I was born, my mother’s red had long since faded. I was raised in a garden-variety New York City Jewish liberal Democratic atmosphere; in fact, my father was (and still is to some extent at 91) very actively involved in the Reform Democratic movement, which succeeded in the ’50’s in overthrowing the remnants of Tammany Hall (Carmine DeSapio, et al.) in New York County. The only way my mother was still to the left of my father when I was a child was in her very early opposition to the Vietnam War, in which I followed her. I was very much a liberal anti-Communist myself when there was such a thing (a reader of books like “Darkness at Noon” at an early age, I became convinced of the dangers of “ends justifying the means” zealotry in almost any cause), and used to have heated arguments with some of my Marxist-Leninist and Maoist classmates — all of them earnest Jewish boys, of course! — about the perfectability of humankind, the “Socialist man,” etc., in 8th grade! All rather juvenile in retrospect.

    No, I’ll never write a book, I think. One of my mother’s letters to her parents from England was quoted in a documentary about the Kindertransport, but that’s as far as I’d go. At least in part because once someone with a trans history goes public in any way — let alone by writing a book, even if the book isn’t entirely about that particular subject — they can never escape their history; it’s like having a scarlet “T” stamped on one’s forehead for the rest of one’s life. And that isn’t what I transitioned for.

    By the way, from what you’ve said about your own family background — speaking of red diapers — it sounds pretty interesting itself.

    To avoid further derailing, if you happen to see this comment, I guess you could send your email address to an old email address of mine that doesn’t reveal my name and that I haven’t actually used in years; it’s lmd226@yahoo.com. The last time I checked it, it had about 5,000 spam messages in the inbox, so if this results in any more it doesn’t really matter. Anyway, I’ll check it occasionally for a while, and if I see something that looks like it’s from you I’ll reply from my real email address. I don’t remember if you’ve mentioned what part of the country you live in, but even if you live in Alaska, at least there’ll be a way of continuing the conversation that doesn’t involve boring everyone else!

  334. Should add to red flags: Anyone who’s ever been in a fraternity. That’s a sure mark of jerkdom.

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