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Children on Flights

Flying with kids has been the topic of three New York Times articles over the past few weeks (one, two and three), and the responses are predictably polarizing. Because yes, having a screaming kid on your flight absolutely sucks. I would imagine it also sucks to be the parent of a screaming kid on a flight, and the fact is that sometimes families need to travel too — leaving the baby at home is not a fair suggestion. So I’m pretty firmly in the camp of “cut parents and kids a lot of slack on airplanes.”

Which is why airlines really should make some reasonable accommodations for parents. Like, let families with small children board first, so that they don’t hold everyone else up. Seat parents and children together. Let parents stand with their kids at the back of the plane if the kids need to stretch their legs. Etc etc. At the same time, parents need to be realistic. And some of the parents in the Times article seem a little… clueless:

Surely they could spare a little milk, right?

But when John and Mary Rose Lin of Jersey City ran out of milk for their 18-month-old twins on a recent Continental flight from Newark to Maui, the flight attendant refused to give them more. That particular beverage, the Lins recall being told, was for coffee, not children. “I was not asking for a full bottle, just a cup,” said Mrs. Lin, noting that she even offered to pay for the milk.

It was the low point of an otherwise arduous trip. Her children are active, and efforts to allow them to move around the cabin were not welcomed by the plane’s staff. They were told to head back to their seats when they lingered near the rear galley; letting the children stretch their legs in the aisle was also not an option. “Not a lot of people sympathize with your situation,” said Mrs. Lin of the 12-hour ordeal. “If you feel like someone is going to help you, chances are no one will.”

Shocking that efforts to let “active” children move around the cabin and stretch their legs into the aisle were not welcomed by the plane’s staff. Have you been in a plane? The cabin is not large! The aisles are narrow, and passengers need to get to the bathroom, and flight attendants need to maneuver food and drink carts. I understand that’s an inconvenience, but it’s not one targeted at kids. Domestic air travel is the absolute worst, and U.S. airlines are almost universally awful, but the problem isn’t that airlines aren’t letting children run through the aisles. Of course, the staff definitely could have let the family hang out near the rear galley so the kids could stand — I also stretch my legs back there while I wait for the bathroom. But I wonder how long they were “lingering” before being told to go back to their seats. A few minutes of stretching seems fair; hanging out for an hour in a tight space that flight attendants need to use, and which is directly in the path to the bathroom, is maybe asking a lot. And it’s definitely unreasonable to expect that your kids should be able to hang out in already-tight airplane aisles. Yes, that sucks, but shared spaces are shared spaces.

At the same time, the hostility directed at traveling parents crosses the line well into the ridiculous:

“I, for one, would like priority boarding for free, special food for free, with special dispensation to scream, yell, run and joyously disturb my fellow high-fare, stressed-out, paying passengers without being hauled off the plane in handcuffs,” wrote Brian Barr, a frequent flier from Chicago, expressing his view of parental attitudes on planes. Families with small children, he went on, “should be charged EXTRA for all the havoc they inflict with their ‘Baby on Board’ entitlement attitude on the rest of full-fare paying society while traveling. Keep them home until they turn 7 or drive, oh selfish parents.”

Yes, it’s completely doable to just never let your kids on a plane until they’re 7 years old. And you can’t drive across an ocean, I don’t think.

Some travelers have suggested family sections on airplanes, and a lot of parents are on board:

A family-only section would give children and parents the freedom to “chat, watch Nickelodeon and laugh out loud,” read a recent post on Madame Noire, a blog catering to African-American women. “And yes, the kids can cry if they want to.”

After all, “do childless passengers really think it’s all gravy when parents can’t calm down their screaming child?” the post continued. “It’s just as stressful for the parent as it is for the child and the other passengers, but it’s a fact: kids cry.”

Yep. It is entirely unreasonable to expect that children will not cry on airplanes. Sorry, but you’re taking mass transportation, and you’re being transported in a way that does not allow parents to remove a crying child from the situation. I’d support family sections on airplanes, provided that those sections were voluntary and parents weren’t automatically shuttled to the back of the plane. And everyone has horror stories about That Horrible Kid On An Airplane — I’ve had my seat kicked for hours and my ears screamed in too, and I’ve seen parents who use the flight as an excuse to put on their noise-canceling headphones and zone out as their child terrorizes everyone around — but in my experience, the vast majority of parents are working extremely hard to keep their kids quiet and entertained. And it is not easy! But the deal with being in shared public spaces is (1) you try to be as unobtrusive and accommodating as is reasonable, and (2) you take steps to minimize how annoyed other people can make you. That goes for people traveling with children and people traveling without. I personally like this suggestion from Anya Clowers, a registered nurse and proprietor of JetWithKids.com:

“Everyone has to do their best to self-contain,” she said. For parents, that means anticipating your child’s needs, such as snacks, distractions and sleep. If your child is old enough, consider giving him or her a role during the flight, she said, such as official seat belt fastener. And inquire about sitting in the last row of the plane, where your child “won’t have as much of an audience,” should he or she act up.

The most important thing for parents to do is stay calm, said Mrs. Clowers, who says she has taken her 6-year-old son to 17 countries without incident. “Kids pick up on their parents’ stress,” she said. Avoid letting the hassles of air travel get to you, and you just might head off a tantrum.

That goes for childless travelers, too. “They need to respect that this may be someone’s family vacation, or someone may be going to their parents’ funeral,” Mrs. Clowers said.

So consider traveling with noise-canceling headphones, she advised, “and try to remember: plenty of business travelers are annoying, too.”

Girl, tell me about it.

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185 thoughts on Children on Flights

  1. The milk thing does seem unreasonable — but asking 18 month olds to sit still? It’s really like asking fish to do handstands. They *have* to run around, they genuinely can’t help it, and on a plane there is no space but the aisles available. It is very irritating to other passengers, dangerous, you name it — but sometimes families have to travel and 18 month olds cannot sit still for long periods of time. They simply can’t; all the angry moralizing and unsympathetic airline personnel in the world won’t change it.

    1. The milk thing does seem unreasonable — but asking 18 month olds to sit still? It’s really like asking fish to do handstands. They *have* to run around, they genuinely can’t help it, and on a plane there is no space but the aisles available. It is very irritating to other passengers, dangerous, you name it — but sometimes families have to travel and 18 month olds cannot sit still for long periods of time. They simply can’t; all the angry moralizing and unsympathetic airline personnel in the world won’t change it.

      I don’t think anyone is saying that kids have to sit still. Kids can stand and stretch their legs, and parents can walk them to the galley where they can jump around for a few minutes, and parents can walk up and down the aisles with their kids when there are no food carts going by. I understand that kids have a hard time sitting for long stretches of time, but really, we expect that airplane staff will let kids run up and down the aisles throughout the flight? It’s not moralizing or being unsympathetic, it’s being realistic about actual space constraints and safety issues.

  2. I’ve never actually been on a plane. But, in movies (I know, I know) the first-class section always seems so large, with wide aisles and a bar and whole bunch of nonsense. Wouldn’t it be possible to make the first-class section smaller in order to make the other sections not so suffocatingly small? Or, as was suggested in the article, take some space away from the first-class section to create a “family” section, with space to play and the permission to make noise.

    Does that seem reasonable?

    1. I’ve never actually been on a plane. But, in movies (I know, I know) the first-class section always seems so large, with wide aisles and a bar and whole bunch of nonsense. Wouldn’t it be possible to make the first-class section smaller in order to make the other sections not so suffocatingly small? Or, as was suggested in the article, take some space away from the first-class section to create a “family” section, with space to play and the permission to make noise.

      Does that seem reasonable?

      Yes, except it’s first-class passengers who basically subsidize the rest of the flight, unfortunately. Make first class smaller and the cost of coach fares will go up.

  3. I’ve traveled several times with small children in tow and I’ve never had an issue with my children getting loud or screaming. Maybe I was lucky, or maybe my extra planning payed off. Among the flights I’ve taken, one was a 10 hour non-stop from Atlanta to Honolulu with a 4 year old and a 1 year old. I packed one toy per child per hour, a portable dvd player, and plenty of snacks. Also, I brought child appropriate chewy candy to help with the ear pressure on the plane. There was extensive planning ahead for each flight that my family has made, but having traveled on multiple long flights with children ranging in age from 6 months to 7 years old (and even pets a couple of times), I know that it can be done without driving everyone on the flight nuts.

  4. I’ve often noticed that, despite my facial expressions to the contrary, I’m not really ever bothered by a crying child on a plane. I don’t have any issues with noise per se. The thing is, and this might just be me, I think we’re really nervous that it might bother someone else and cause a scene; more of a social norm issue than an actual annoyance. I’ve been on planes before where a child’s screams reached the point of absurdity, literally, and everyone just started laughing—after which we weren’t so bothered by it anymore.

  5. Jade — what is appropriate chewy candy for a one year old? this is NOT snark, I genuinely would like to know!

  6. It’s interesting to me the extent to which people seem to look for reasons to complain about children in public spaces. I don’t particularly like kids (except my own–most of the time) and am an introvert who is bothered by loud noises. However, when I think back about times that I’ve been bothered by people on planes, trains, restaurants, etc., a very small percentage of those events involve kids. People in general can be inconsiderate, loud, smelly, and messy (not to mentioning threatening). I’d love to do an experiment where confederates of various types would inconvenience people in public spaces with some measure of the time, noise level, etc. and then see what the perception is. I bet that people would be more apt to complain about kids and think that “something should be done” to keep them out, whereas adults would be just be seen as “oh well, people are jerks sometimes and you can’t do anything about that.”

  7. When a crying kid annoys me, on a plane or anywhere else, I just console myself with the thought that in 20 years or so, the little bugger will be paying my Social Security.

  8. I was with you up until the bearing with seat-kickers bit. There’s simply no excuse for that.

    On an overnight flight I went two rounds with the mom and a third with a flight attendant before they finally offered to let me switch seats. The mom was outraged when I replied that I’m 6’4″ and paid extra for the exit row and that they can be the ones to move. I have no idea what would’ve happened if the flight had been full.

    1. I was with you up until the bearing with seat-kickers bit. There’s simply no excuse for that.

      Oh I agree — I don’t think you should have to put up with seat-kickers. It’s totally fair to turn around and say (politely) to the parent, “Excuse me, but your child is kicking my seat repeatedly. Would you mind trying to get them to stop? Thanks.” But no need to be rude or get mad.

  9. It’s the refusal to seat children and parents together that really chaps my ass. Most everything else is the inevitable slide of airlines downwards—no milk? The lack of food service is universal. Flights are more crowded and seats closer together in general, so there’s less space to move around for both adults and children. We all have to deal miserably together.

    (Insert old fogey—not really, I’m 27—story about when I flew as a kid, there were coloring packs and wing pins and flight attendants were less stressed and thus kinder. But those days are gone.)

    But seriously? You can’t make special accomodation to seat kids with their parents? Go die in a fire, airlines.

  10. Wouldn’t it be possible to make the first-class section smaller in order to make the other sections not so suffocatingly small? Or, as was suggested in the article, take some space away from the first-class section to create a “family” section, with space to play and the permission to make noise.

    No.

    Also, I’ll get my popcorn now.

  11. It’s the refusal to seat children and parents together that really chaps my ass.

    What? Having a family sit in the middle seats for 4 consecutive rows doesn’t count as “sitting together”?

  12. Jennifer: It’s interesting to me the extent to which people seem to look for reasons to complain about children in public spaces. I don’t particularly like kids (except my own–most of the time) and am an introvert who is bothered by loud noises. However, when I think back about times that I’ve been bothered by people on planes, trains, restaurants, etc., a very small percentage of those events involve kids.

    Yes.

    On my last flight, there was a little kid who was being very loud and kind of spoiled, but his parent was making nearly as much of a fuss in her attempts to get him to calm down. It was early, so I figured they were both just really stressed. And for every loud, cranky kid on flights I’ve taken, there’s been the seat mate who won’t stop chattering to me when I’m trying to sleep, or the loud, drunk guy making inappropriate comments, or…

  13. On my first plane flight, in 1964, when I was 9, I received my very own miniature pack of cigarettes (real ones) on my meal tray. Those were the days.

  14. bet that people would be more apt to complain about kids and think that “something should be done” to keep them out, whereas adults would be just be seen as “oh well, people are jerks sometimes and you can’t do anything about that.”

    That’s because kids generally have some sort of adult supervising them and ostensibly curbing their annoying behavior. When the kids are allowed to behave in ways that are annoying and are unchecked, it is generally viewed as a failure of the adult supervisor. Sadly, most adults have no such supervision.

  15. The milk thing is weird – were they worried about running out of milk for coffee, or were they maybe worried about liability for giving food to babies, in case it turns out not to be the right kind for them? But if the parent asked for it, seems like its their responsibility. What would happen if a grownup asked for a glass of milk? I feel like I’ve done that at some point on a plane without incident, because I often want milk if my stomach hurts, but I can’t remember specifically.

    When I was a kid I played in my seat – kids fit in the seats with so much more extra space than an adult. I don’t know if extra space for them to stretch their legs is really the thing that’s needed. Extra space to cry and yell maybe, but I don’t see why they can’t stretch their legs right in their seat since they’re so tiny. I remember how much nicer it was to fly when I was little and the seat was huge. (Of course it was also nicer back then because they’d give kids candy, toys, and let them see the cockpit. But you can bring your own candy and toys and the cockpit was only a few minutes out of the flight, not something that kept the kids entertained the whole time.)

    It’s the refusal to seat children and parents together that really chaps my ass.
    Does that really happen? I’ve never seen it happen, but if it does, that’s terrible.

  16. As a person who can’t stand children at all, I’d be thrilled if no one with tiny kids flew on planes, but I know it’s never going to happen. I have not had a single flight ruined by an adult passenger (though I hear it happens); all my misery has come from 2 sources: kids and pets. Yappy or constantly whimpering dogs and crying/kicking kids are the absolute worst. They’re both high-pitched noisemakers that peg your ears right in the middle of your frequency range, and they go through most headphones unless I turn the music up to ear-breaking volumes.

    I’m not sure what the answer here is, really. I’m not sure there is one. I’d be a huge fan of the “family only” section, hopefully *some* sort of sound barrier, because it’s not the running that gets me, it’s the crying.

    It can’t be pleasant for the kids, either, really. Babies get stuffed up sinuses and ears all the time, and from the few times I’ve flown with a cold, the sheer amount of pain that happens during takeoff and landing is almost enough to make me scream like that. I can’t imagine what it might be like to experience that against your will and when you have no idea what’s actually happening.

    I wonder if there’s a way to reliably and safely make the kids sleep for the duration of the flight. Melatonin? Benadryl? Something? We sedate pets so they don’t pitch a fit…

  17. Does that really happen? I’ve never seen it happen, but if it does, that’s terrible.

    Oh yes. Airlines are all about giving the best perks to the people who fly the most (aka business travelers). I usually fly Delta, and it’s basically impossible to get a good seat (exit row, window or aisle in the front half of the cabin) if you don’t have elite frequent flyer status. Since families usually don’t have elite status, they often get stuck with the middle seats.

  18. midnightsky: I wonder if there’s a way to reliably and safely make the kids sleep for the duration of the flight. Melatonin? Benadryl? Something? We sedate pets so they don’t pitch a fit…

    Um, kids aren’t pets. And while I really really dislike screaming kids, with the frequency and the volume and everything, I’m even more squicked out by the idea of drugging them for peace and quiet. (Giving them something to help them sleep so they themselves are not distressed is different, at least in my opinion.)

  19. I now realize why they might not sit parents next to kids. When I book a flight these days, I choose my own specific seats. If I went to the trouble to book a flight way ahead of time so I could get a window seat, is it fair to kick me out of my window seat because someone with kids didn’t plan as far ahead? Maybe there are other solutions they can do, like reserving certain blocks of seats till the last minute for families, or something along those lines.

  20. Oh yes. Airlines are all about giving the best perks to the people who fly the most (aka business travelers). I usually fly Delta, and it’s basically impossible to get a good seat (exit row, window or aisle in the front half of the cabin) if you don’t have elite frequent flyer status. Since families usually don’t have elite status, they often get stuck with the middle seats.

    Hmm, well I don’t think I’m an elite traveler, and I always book ahead of time and always get a window or aisle seat. So it seems like this problem IS something that the families themselves can control, by booking ahead of time and choosing seats together. Still, it does seem like its worth it for everyone’s sanity if the airlines do something like reserve blocks of seats to give to families when necessary. There’s got to be a way to do it that doesn’t involve punishing specific people who DID carefully book a window or aisle seat ahead of time, though.

  21. (And why do you want the front half of the cabin? Nothing wrong with sitting together in the back half of the cabin…)

  22. If I went to the trouble to book a flight way ahead of time so I could get a window seat, is it fair to kick me out of my window seat because someone with kids didn’t plan as far ahead?

    I think the most frequent reason families would travel at the last minute is for some kind of emergency. Would your answer change if the late-booking family was traveling to grandma’s funeral and the 4 year old was seated 10 rows away from a parent?

  23. Jennifer:
    It’sinterestingtometheextenttowhichpeopleseemtolookforreasonstocomplainaboutchildreninpublicspaces.Idon’tparticularlylikekids(exceptmyown–mostofthetime)andamanintrovertwhoisbotheredbyloudnoises.However,whenIthinkbackabouttimesthatI’vebeenbotheredbypeopleonplanes,trains,restaurants,etc.,averysmallpercentageofthoseeventsinvolvekids.Peopleingeneralcanbeinconsiderate,loud,smelly,andmessy(nottomentioningthreatening).I’dlovetodoanexperimentwhereconfederatesofvarioustypeswouldinconveniencepeopleinpublicspaceswithsomemeasureofthetime,noiselevel,etc.andthenseewhattheperceptionis.Ibetthatpeoplewouldbemoreapttocomplainaboutkidsandthinkthat“somethingshouldbedone”tokeepthemout,whereasadultswouldbejustbeseenas“ohwell,peoplearejerkssometimesandyoucan’tdoanythingaboutthat.”

    I don’t think this is true. I think it’s one of those things that is incredibly sensitive to the groupthink of that particular crowd and the reactions of the designated leaders. When flying ten hours from Bangkok to Helsinki this summer, there were several families with small children on the flight including including infants; it was a night flight and the babies did cry waking up some passengers but the stewardess calmly swooped in on the parents to ask if there was anything they needed and also on any disgruntled passengers, offering hot towels, extra blankets, or coffee and effectively cutting off any complaints. The final leg of that trip home was two hours, JFK to Atlanta on one of Airtrans super-tiny tin can flights. There were two kids flying alone and the little girl would not stop talking, loudly, about anything and everything around her; An adult passenger a seat ahead turned around and start chatting with her in low tones, which made her lower her own voice and kept her from pestering the steward with questions at every opportunity. The staff relaxed and everyone in the back of the plain followed suit. There will always jerks who will complain because god forbid they have to deal with something irritating for a while but the key is to not let them dominate the crowd and influence everyone’s feelings.

  24. Kids crying can be louder than hearing damage or pain thresholds. So, yeah, it’s a provable health problem, and I don’t like the way you lot are just trying to pass it off as people being moody assholes. If someone’s says their ears are being damaged and they are in pain you can’t just respond ‘STFU and stop being so grumpy’.

  25. Once I nearly passed out on a plane if it wasn’t for a kind flight attendant who gave me some orange juice.

    Give the kid some damn milk.

  26. Oh I agree — I don’t think you should have to put up with seat-kickers. It’s totally fair to turn around and say (politely) to the parent, “Excuse me, but your child is kicking my seat repeatedly. Would you mind trying to get them to stop? Thanks.” But no need to be rude or get mad.

    Except that, every time I’ve done that, the parent has either (1) told their kid to stop, but then done nothing when the kid either ignored him/her or resumed kicking or (2) gotten mad at me. I’ve had a kid sitting behind me screaming for five hours while his mother wore noise-cancelling headphones. I really don’t mind kids on flights, and I get that the change in air pressure can be painful, but there are just too many parents who are incapable or unwilling to make a sustained effort to prevent their children from making other people’s flight hellish. Nine out of ten sets of parents and kids may be fine, but that ten percent who are awful are truly, truly awful and the effects of that awfulness can be nearly unbearable on a flight, because you can’t escape.

    The parents I have appreciated most on flights were upfront about the fact that their kids might be a disturbance to others, and proactive in trying to reduce the disturbance. One handed out earplugs to nearby passengers. One couple asked me to switch seats so they and their baby could sit together, and gave me a handful of drink coupons for the flight in thanks. Others swiftly and efficiently stopped misbehavior (kicking, shrieking, climbing over seats, bothering other passengers) and clearly had a plan to keep their children quiet and entertained for the flight. I sat next to a delightful little girl on one flight who, well-provided with paper and markers, drew me a bookmark after we had watched Ratatouille on the in-flight video system. People don’t feel strongly about this issue because of conscientious parents who are unable to control every single circumstance. They feel strongly about it because there are some seriously entitled people who manage to make flights harder for everyone.

  27. I think the most frequent reason families would travel at the last minute is for some kind of emergency. Would your answer change if the late-booking family was traveling to grandma’s funeral and the 4 year old was seated 10 rows away from a parent?

    I think my answer is still that, while that might be unusual for a single family, it isn’t unusual for an airline, and they should have procedures in place to deal with it that don’t involve booting me out of my seat. In practice, most people DO trade seats to let families sit together (which is probably why I’ve never actually seen a kid seated away from their parents), but they shouldn’t have to.

    To get off the plane faster.

    Well, ok, but that seems more like a luxury than a necessity. It makes a difference of maybe 5 minutes tops, so if you’d rather get off the plane 5 minutes faster than sit next to your kid, my sympathy is waning. And if there are blocks of seats available together at the back of the plane, then the family can sit together there. In fact then they can be more relaxed getting off the plane slowly with their kids and not worrying about being in anyone else’s way. Seems like a win-win situation, unless they have such a tight connection that 5 minutes will really make a difference, and in that case the airline will often hold the other plane for 5 minutes. Or, you know, not let you book that connection in the first place. Plus if you are in the back you can board first and get settled. Its nice all around. I usually end up in a window seat in the back because that’s what’s available when I book, but I think its fine. Sitting in the front or back seems really petty compared to leaving a kid to sit all alone among strangers, or refusing to give them milk.

  28. valentifan69: Kids crying can be louder than hearing damage or pain thresholds. So, yeah, it’s a provable health problem, and I don’t like the way you lot are just trying to pass it off as people being moody assholes. If someone’s says their ears are being damaged and they are in pain you can’t just respond ‘STFU and stop being so grumpy’.

    Sure they *can* be, but unless you’ve got some sort of evidence that you’re not the average bear, you sound like an asshole because your need for quiet is subsumed by the rest of the world’s reasonable expectations regarding noise, social contracts, air travel, the rights of children to move around in the world, and your responsibility to take care of your own pet peeves. So if you’re capable of using noise-cancelling headphones or ear plugs but you’d complaining that your “ears are being damaged” because a parent has the audacity to have a child that cries in your presence, you’re being a moody asshole. Buy some ear plugs.

  29. I can remember one flight where my partner and I had reserved seats side by side. But when we got onto the plane, there was a woman and a child there, occupying one of our seats. “Oh, do you mind shifting so that my little girl can be next to me?” she said. We didn’t have the heart to tell her to get her butt, or her kid’s butt, up to the row that it had a ticket for. But we were pretty annoyed.

    I wonder if people cut themselves the right to act like jerks if they can believe it’s for their child’s benefit.

  30. It makes a difference of maybe 5 minutes tops, so if you’d rather get off the plane 5 minutes faster than sit next to your kid, my sympathy is waning.

    My point was more that airlines reserve the good seats for frequent fliers which limits options for families who want to be seated together.

  31. Florence: Sure they *can* be, but unless you’ve got some sort of evidence that you’re not the average bear, you sound like an asshole because your need for quiet is subsumed by the rest of the world’s reasonable expectations regarding noise, social contracts, air travel, the rights of children to move around in the world, and your responsibility to take care of your own pet peeves. So if you’re capable of using noise-cancelling headphones or ear plugs but you’d complaining that your “ears are being damaged” because a parent has the audacity to have a child that cries in your presence, you’re being a moody asshole. Buy some ear plugs.

    Wait, so unless the person with the noise sensitivity provides the person with the loud a child a note from a doctor, they’re an asshole because the sensitivity isn’t obvious?

    I do agree with the need to be proactive; I have a pretty major noise sensitivity (sometimes even the speaking voice of a small child can be literally physically painful for me) and my main form of transportation is the city bus system, and I’ve decided to invest in earplugs and noise-cancelling headphones finally because I’d rather do that than stew in feelings of anger and resentment at the source of the painful noise (or whoever is allowing the noise to continue), but I am bewildered by the idea that because noise sensitivities are invisible, that the onus is on people who suffer from them to STFU. I’m hoping I’ve just misunderstood you.

    1. I am bewildered by the idea that because noise sensitivities are invisible, that the onus is on people who suffer from them to STFU.

      Well, I think if someone has unusually high noise sensitivities, then the onus is on them to deal with those sensitivities rather than to demand that everyone in a public place be quiet.

  32. I’m with Jill in the middle ground here, where parents need to do their best to keep their kids quiet and non-disruptive and the rest of the passengers need to be understanding of the times that just isn’t possible (and I’m definitely on board with the idea that airlines need to do what they can to facilitate comfortable family flying).

    That being said, Florence there are times when you can’t just wear headphones to drown out screaming. In fact, for about an hour on most flights, immediately prior to, during, and after takeoff and then immediately prior to and during landing, all passengers are told to remove headphones and earplugs. It’s a safety thing, and my guess is that there’s a federal regulation that requires it since it’s been true of every single flight I’ve ever taken. And yes, some people are more sensitive to noise than other people, for a variety of reasons, and find it physically painful to be in close proximity to a screaming child. (For the record, I’m not one of them, but I know some).

    Which isn’t to say that kids shouldn’t fly or that people are justified in being assholes if they do get disruptive. But just as it’s not fair for people to say “keep your kid quiet or GTFO” it’s also not fair to say “quit whining about your sensitive hearing/migraines/other health issues or GTFO.” It’s a lot more productive to try to think of ways that all parties can be accommodated (like, for example, encouraging airlines to swap passengers who really do have medical problems linked to noise to seats farther away from a screaming child).

  33. Donna L — oh my goodness, that mini-cigarette story is AWFUL but HILARIOUS.

    Tei Tetua — that has happened to me and I’ve just said no. It’s not that I’m unsympathetic to the parent / kid, but they have a problem that belongs to the airline, not to me. If they try to hand me the problem that belongs to the airline, I hand it right back to them. Eventually they’ll ask a flight attendant for help, as they should have done in the first place.

  34. Esti: Which isn’t to say that kids shouldn’t fly or that people are justified in being assholes if they do get disruptive. But just as it’s not fair for people to say “keep your kid quiet or GTFO” it’s also not fair to say “quit whining about your sensitive hearing/migraines/other health issues or GTFO.” It’s a lot more productive to try to think of ways that all parties can be accommodated (like, for example, encouraging airlines to swap passengers who really do have medical problems linked to noise to seats farther away from a screaming child).

    THIS. Thank you.

  35. Esti — who is going to volunteer to sit next to the screaming child? I was on a flight once where a baby shrieked for *two hours*. I wouldn’t have traded seats with the person next to the baby for the world. The thing is, when a baby is in that mode there is nothing that can be done about it; we are used to bad things being “injustices” that must be rectified but a shrieking baby is just a bummer. People who want to turn it into an injustice are just looking for a format in which understandable exasperation can become righteous indignation.

  36. Jill: Well, I think if someone has unusually high noise sensitivities, then the onus is on them to deal with those sensitivities rather than to demand that everyone in a public place be quiet.

    I’m not saying that I as a person with a noise sensitivity can or should expect everyone in a public place to be quiet for my sake. (Although I thank whatever deity is out there whenever I am lucky enough to be the only passenger on the bus or if the other people on the bus are able to talk amongst themselves without piercing my eardrums). I also said that I agree with Florence about being proactive. What I am saying is that it’s sort of messed up to suggest that people with invisible health issues are somehow less deserving of consideration because the health issues are invisible.

  37. My experience with flights and booked seats (and your experiences may vary) is that you can book whatever seats that you want, but until you have that boarding pass with that seat number on it, that seat isn’t yours.

    I don’t have any kind of elite status with any airlines, but I always manage to get the seat that I want by checking in online, picking my seat, and printing out my boarding passes as soon as I am able to do so. People who wait till the last minute at the airport to check in and get their boarding passes are pretty much SOL and are stuck with all of the unwanted middle seats.

    I guess my point is that if you want/need to have everyone in your party sitting next to each other, then you need to be proactive about it and not leave it to chance or the good will of your fellow passengers. Maybe that means you get up at 3am to secure your seats and print out boarding passes. Maybe that means you need to deal directly with the airline and get paper tickets.

  38. Oh dear god…not children on a plane. This brings out the ugly in everyone. Children are people. They are not substantially more irritating than other people except when they are in distress. But when they are in distress…they.are.children.in.distress.

    I’ve been flying more than normal and I’ve found one technique that seems helpful against the shitty, shitty attitude people take when a child starts crying. I take a second to smile sympathetically at the parent and say slightly loudly “Poor thing s/he must be so uncomfortable.” And then make some small talk about air pressure and what not.

    Family sections sound good to me but I defer to those who actually fly with children. It would be nice if there was space to change a diaper.

  39. The only flight experience I can remember when a kid caused a problem was when flying to the UK from the USA. As we were landing, there was a kid a few rows back who straight-up REFUSED to sit in his seat and put his seatbelt on. This was obviously a massive safety issue and ended up with about 5 stewards gathered round alternately trying to bribe the child and pleading with the parents to do something (they seemed perfectly happy that their son would be in mortal danger if the landing was a bit rough). Earlier on in the departure lounge I’d seen the kid literally punch his younger brother in the face, and their dad had reacted by picking him (the puncher) up and giving him a massive kiss…

    Also, kind of off topic, but when I was 18 months old my parents took me on an overnight flight to South Africa. There were big, wide windowsills going all the way down the plane, so they put me on theirs to sleep as it was comfier, and went to sleep themselves. At some point in the night, the plane obviously made a bit of an ascent, I slid back down the plane, and some poor passenger woke up with someone else’s sleeping baby in their lap. True story.

  40. Sure they *can* be, but unless you’ve got some sort of evidence that you’re not the average bear, you sound like an asshole because your need for quiet is subsumed by the rest of the world’s reasonable expectations regarding noise

    Well, I think if someone has unusually high noise sensitivities, then the onus is on them to deal with those sensitivities rather than to demand that everyone in a public place be quiet.

    To be clear: I’m not talking about ‘sensitivity’ or ‘quiet’, I’m talking about normal adults and extreme noise.

    It’s not ‘reasonable’ to expect to be able to hurt people and damage their hearing without them complaining. And it’s not uncommon. Figures I’ve seem put crying at 115 db, the pain threshold at the same, and damage threshold at about 95 db. And I love the way you say ‘need for quiet’, lol. I’m not asking for that, I’m asking that you don’t inflict extreme noises louder than heavy road traffic or a subway car on people. It really says something about entitlement when the parent-lobby insists that unreasonable for normal people to expect to be able to go about their lives without using protective equipment to avoid pain/hearing damage.

  41. I do wish parents would take more responsibility for their kids on flights. I’ve sat next to 1 year olds that were angels and 7 year olds that were hell-ians on planes. Ultimately, it’s the parent’s job to discipline their child and I wish more of them would do so rather than just letting them go bonkers.

  42. Wow. This vitriol used to be reserved for fat people on airplanes, now we’re angry at kids for being kids? I think this is all a result of travelers having to deal with crappier and crappier accommodations and more and more invasive security procedures. We’d all be much happier with each other if we weren’t filled with hatred by the time we boarded!

  43. As a person who can’t stand children at all,

    I’m wondering what other groups/classes of people it’s ok to say “As a person who can’t stand [group/class of people] at all,” about.

    I hope this isn’t derailing, since it supports the point that children are people, whose needs the airlines should accommodate just as much (or, more likely, little) as they accommodate the needs of other kinds of people.

    (Disclaimer: I have not ever been on an airplane with my children. I hate flying for lots of reasons, none of which are related to the behavior of children.)

  44. valentifan69: Figures I’ve seem put crying at 115 db, the pain threshold at the same, and damage threshold at about 95 db.

    Crying babies are max 110 decibels. Airplanes during take off: 140 db.

    I would suggest that if someone’s pain threshold is so low they might consider avoiding air travel all together.

  45. I’ve flown with my kids on very rare occasions. I have to say, I always preferred going to the back so there wasn’t all the pressure to get out fast enough to suit the people behind us. Much easier to get the kids out at my own pace that way.

    Breastfeeding was pretty much a lifesaver when flying with an infant, although some people have trouble with that one. You want a quiet infant, however, and that’s one of your best shots right there. Lollipops work great when the kids are a bit older.

  46. valentifan69: I’m asking that you don’t inflict extreme noises louder than heavy road traffic or a subway car on people.

    Also, subway car – 115 db – so even by your metric…babies are not that loud.

  47. Kristen J.: Crying babies are max 110 decibels. Airplanes during take off: 140 db.

    I would suggest that if someone’s pain threshold is so low they might consider avoiding air travel all together.

    I thought 140 db was from outside the plane, though. Takeoff is pretty muffled from inside the plane. That’s why workers on the tarmac wear giant ear protection devices, but passengers don’t need them.

  48. valentifan69: Kids crying can be louder than hearing damage or pain thresholds. So, yeah, it’s a provable health problem, and I don’t like the way you lot are just trying to pass it off as people being moody assholes. If someone’s says their ears are being damaged and they are in pain you can’t just respond ‘STFU and stop being so grumpy’

    Um, one reason why I was crying on the plane when I was a kid was because of the horrific pain in my years from the change in air pressure, exacerbated by (invisible) health issues I had.

  49. Aside from things like hurting ears from air pressure, it’s also important to keep in mind that some kids do have behavioural issues that all the flight-prepping and toys and such to ‘keep occupied’ can’t always prevent.

    I have at least one friend who has kids on the spectrum and even with the best of effort cannot always control behaviour. When you have a kid on a plane that is acting up, it’s the same as in a mall or something.. you don’t always know what the parents or the kids themselves are dealing with.

    And I agree with the poster who made reference to Midnightsky’s comment about not liking children at all.. replace ‘children’ with any given group of people and see how well that goes over.

  50. I’m really surprised that people wouldn’t switch seats so parents and children can sit together. I have a child now, but long before I did, even as a teenager, I gave up my seat on all manner of transportation so that children and parents wouldn’t be separated. Because while it is nicer to sit with your partner or friend for the flight, unless you have serious anxiety issues, or the partner is also your carer, etc., it’s (generally) less distressing for two adults to be separated than for a parent and child to be separated.

    That being said, when I’m travelling alone, I’ll give up my seat so that two adults can sit together. I’m also happy to swap tables in restaurants so large parties can sit together, or trade seats in a movie theatre. It’s just good manners and consideration, and that courtesy should be extended to children as well as adults.

  51. My point was more that airlines reserve the good seats for frequent fliers which limits options for families who want to be seated together.

    And my point was that you said the back of the plane was available, and the back of the plane are perfectly “good” seats, and arguably better seats for families.

    Also, I always book flights a couple of weeks ahead of time and print boarding passes at home, but I have never had any trouble getting decent seats for a group of 2-3 people sitting together (in economy class without paying extra). Its true that it is probably easier for a frequent business flyer, but that doesn’t mean its impossible for the rest of the world if you are proactive about it. The only exception is if you have last minute emergency travel, but like I said, that’s a thing that happens and the airlines should have ways to deal with it. Worst case, if you need to sit next to your child, maybe stand up and ask if anyone is willing to trade rather than just assuming that you can take over a specific person’s reserved seat without asking them. (Probably the flight attendant would also stand up and ask this for you, if necessary.) I think most people understand that its better for everyone if the kid sits next to a parent, and there will most likely be someone on the whole flight who is willing to trade, but its more likely to work out if you ask around first rather than just sitting in someone’s seat before they get there.

    In fact, for about an hour on most flights, immediately prior to, during, and after takeoff and then immediately prior to and during landing, all passengers are told to remove headphones and earplugs

    I’ve never actually heard them mention earplugs (which aren’t electronic) but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did tell someone to remove them. After all, everyone should be listening to the safety stuff.

  52. Past my expiration date: I’m wondering what other groups/classes of peoplei it’s ok to say“ As a person who can’t stand [group/class of people] at all,”about.

    I think that childfree people can be ridiculous and I cringe to see vitriolic rants about children blaming them for existing. I also think that children are awesome and don’t support discimination against them. But! Let’s not do oppression olympics with this! Especially since people DO say, “As a person who can’t stand” all. the. time. About lots of people! Women. “Certain kinds of” black people. The Gays. People who are trans. Etc.

  53. I’m wondering what other groups/classes of people it’s ok to say “As a person who can’t stand [group/class of people] at all,” about.

    Mimes. Though I’d wouldn’t mind sitting next to one on a plane.

  54. Kristen J.: Crying babies are max 110 decibels. Airplanes during take off: 140 db.

    I would suggest that if someone’s pain threshold is so low they might consider avoiding air travel all together.

    Thank you.

    No, Esti and Val et al, I cam not arguing that you need to provide proof of disability to complain about noise. I’m saying that a) making policy based on hypothetical and potential hearing damage is really shitty when it affects the actual movement of women and children in meat-world, and b) unless you can show that children crying is more damaging to your hearing than the sounds of transit, as noted by Kristen J. here, you are indeed being a moody asshole, as evidenced by your focus on the rights or lack thereof of children instead of how noisy it is to ride on a plane, sit on a subway car, etc., which is mighty noisy regardless of whether children are present. I’m not saying that noise levels don’t contribute to a lower quality of life for some/all people, but I am saying that attributing hearing loss to crying babies on planes is a big fucking stretch. Here are some handy charts for reference.

    Also, since the socially responsible child-handlers tend to be mothers, i.e. women, restricting their movement because kids make you uncomfortable is unfeminist. Also, kids = people and deserve big people rights.

    Where is zuzu? We need to hate on some pilots, stat.

  55. hmm: I’ve never actually heard them mention earplugs (which aren’t electronic) but I wouldn’t be surprised if they did tell someone to remove them.

    Never heard of this. Headphones, no. Earplugs, no. Turn electronic devices off, yes.

  56. I always find people complaining about entitled parents and children baffling. I go through life under the assumption that everybody’s doing the best they can, and 99% of the time humanity confirms my judgment that yes, everybody’s doing the best they can.

    I’m seriously puzzled by the assertion that crying babies cause hearing damage. By that standard, so is flying period (noisy takeoff) or going to a party with loud music, or watching a parade with a marching band, or standing by a car with the car alarm going off, or or or.

    In other words, sure it’s painful and uncomfortable, but /it’s part of life./ A certain amount of discomfort is just part of life. It’s also bad for you to sit in cramped seats with little chance to stretch your legs, but we all seem to be volunteering to do that, too. I’m honestly not sure what reasonable accomodation for people with noise sensitivity might be – I get migraines (not brought about by sound, but still) so I def. understand people with migraines worrying about a screaming kid – but what’s the solution? You simply cannot make it impossible for families to fly with kids, that’s just a form of discrimination.

    Finally – everybody should just fly Southwest! No assigned seats, so you’re free to find seats together as best you can, and people are often very good about agreeing to move so families can sit together.

    (and can I say I’m quietly appalled that anyone would refuse to allow a parent and young child to sit together, if not for the sake of the parent, then for the sake of the child?)

  57. Florence: Never heard of this. Headphones, no. Earplugs, no. Turn electronic devices off, yes.

    I’ve begun to hear this lately. Turn off electronic devices and remove all headphones, presumably whether or not they are attached to anything. I can’t remember if that included earplugs or not.

  58. I don’t understand why we have assigned seating anyway. I like the way Southwest does it: get on the plane and choose a seat. No seat is better than the rest; they all suck, but they’re all going to the same place.

    I don’t like being around kids either, but screaming/crying babies on planes almost alleviate my stress. For one thing, planes don’t crash if it’s carrying babies. For another, every single thing about flying sucks. When I flew back from Vietnam, I was in the row in front of a couple who had just adopted two babies and who screamed the entire way home. 12 hours of confused, terrified screaming. And if it wasn’t 12 hours of screaming babies, then it would be 12 hours of the business-dude sitting with his legs spread open, or the Christian-freak asking me to pray with her, or the teenager watching porn on his laptop (true story! He was sitting next to me just watching porn! I closed the lid and told him that I’d report him for potentially exposing children to sexual material if he opened it again.).

    People have irrational expectations when they fly.

  59. and can I say I’m quietly appalled that anyone would refuse to allow a parent and young child to sit together, if not for the sake of the parent, then for the sake of the child?

    I think the situation is not that anyone wants to refuse to let them sit together, its more – why should *you* have to be the one to move for them? There are 50 people on the plane who could move for them. If there was really no other option I would certainly let them sit together, but I don’t agree that the very first option should be them booting some random person without permission. Maybe that person went to a lot of trouble to get a window seat because they’re claustrophobic, or something along those lines. Its much better to ask for volunteers, and odds are there will be a volunteer somewhere on the plane. I’ve never been on a flight where a child actually ended up sitting away from their parent. Who would want a random child sitting next to them without a parent around? Someone will trade, if only to avoid sitting next to the kid.

  60. Aydan: I thought 140 db was from outside the plane, though.

    I don’t think so. The data I’m looking at doesn’t specify but elsewhere I’ve seen 190 db as the max for outside the plane. Given that 140 is the max you can expose workers to without hearing protection (and that I’ve never seen a flight attendant with hearing protection), I would guess that planes are structure so that the noise level at take off does not exceed 140 inside the cabin. God knows it hurts enough if you’re sitting on the wing.

    Florence: Never heard of this. Headphones, no. Earplugs, no. Turn electronic devices off, yes.

    They will pry my ear plugs out of my cold dead ears. I freaking hate the engine noise.

  61. valentifan69:Mimes. Though I’d wouldn’t mind sitting next to one on a plane.

    You say that now, but just wait until they put up that invisible wall between you and the bathroom…

  62. WRT noise–the screeching sounds the Green Line makes in Boston makes a screaming baby seem like a meditation CD. For realz.

  63. Kristen J.: I take a second to smile sympathetically at the parent and say slightly loudly “Poor thing s/he must be so uncomfortable.”

    Smiling at the baby can help too. It was on the train, not an airplane, but a couple times I caught the eye of a crying baby and smiled, and the baby stopped crying to look at me with interest. It probably wouldn’t work if the baby is in pain from the air pressure rather than just cranky and bored, but it’s worth a try.

  64. Look, not to get into a ridiculous decibel-level debate, but the interior of fixed engine airplanes is, on average, 89-101 decibels during takeoff. It’s also a lot less noisy if you sit forward of the engine rather than behind it, which is something that a lot of people take into account when booking seats (in fact, some people only book flights on models of planes known to be quieter, because they can’t handle the louder models). If you have noise-related medical issues, then yes, a baby crying at 110 or 115 decibels might be a significant source of pain during the time when you can’t wear headphones or earplugs (and I have seen people told to take out earplugs, though it does happen less often, probably because a) fewer people use them and b) they’re significantly harder for flight attendants to see).

    As I said in my last post, by pointing out that loud noises can in fact be painful to people with certain medical problems, I was not saying children shouldn’t be able to fly. Just as kids have to either sit in a seat or not fly, adults (and children) with hearing sensitivities have to either deal with the ambient noise on an aircraft or not fly. But I do think it’s a little ridiculous for people to be (rightfully) offended by a refusal to make any accommodation for children on flights and then turn around and say that people who have legitimate medical problems with loud noises should just deal with it or get out.

    Yes, the onus is on you to deal with your issues. Just like the onus is on parents and kids to deal with the inherent difficulties of taking kids on planes. That doesn’t mean people should refuse to switch seats with parents who want to be next to their kids, or that airlines should refuse to give a cup of milk to a kid, or that people should refuse to switch seats with a passenger who is in real pain because they’re sitting near a screaming infant (a switch I would happily make if, for example, the airline gave a free drink or two to whoever volunteered — just as they give flight vouchers to people who are bumped off of overbooked flights).

    It’s frustrating to me that instead of taking a holistic and compassionate approach to the simple truth that for some people, for reasons they can’t help, flying is significantly more uncomfortable and painful than for the average person, these discussions inevitably devolve into “well, *my* issue should obviously be accommodated, but anyone with a similarly legitimate issue who is harmed by accommodating me deserves no consideration.” Unless you’re on one of the extremes that Jill derided (either “no kids on planes ever” or “kids should receive any accommodation parents want and no one can complain” — positions I find equally obnoxious), it doesn’t have to be a zero sum game.

  65. Ah, but the noise on the Green Line ends when you’ve made the turn into Boylston station. An airline flight can be a good deal longer.

    And imagine one of those stuck-on-the-tarmac-for-six-hours situations that sometimes happen, and you’re the one next to the restive baby. Tell the crew that there’s a bomb on board, no jury would convict you.

  66. (I should clarify that my belief that planes won’t crash if they’re carrying babies is magical thinking (obviously). It’s a combination of magical thinking (fate won’t kill babies/Buddhists/priests/old people/newlyweds) and teeny airline bottles of red wine that help me cope with flying.

  67. I flew Alitalia recently. Not only did they reserve the bulkhead seats for families with babies (there are special hooking contraptions on the bulkhead wall to hang your infant carrier from), freeing them for non-fam passengers only when any fams have been accommodated, they had one lavatory with a changing table. Which is to say, one lavatory in which there was room enough to turn around in. Bliss, I tells ya.

    Keen eyed readers will immediately note that Alitalia is not an American carrier. We got gelato for dessert, too.

  68. Airlines are among the most highly regulated industries out there. Talking about what accommodations they could make for families is like talking about what accommodations the IRS could make to make taxes easier to prepare: It might be nice to think about, but it ain’t going to happen.

  69. re: earplugs and headphones

    I only fly West Jet and Air Canada, and both airlines request that all headphones *except* ear-bud type headphones be removed, and never a word about ear plugs. I’m not sure what the actual purpose of this is, but it does seem that something inside the ear is okay, plug or headphone, but not covering the ear.

    re: kids on planes

    Honestly, the worst fellow passengers I’ve ever had to put up with have *not* been infants or small kids. Stereotype-fulfilling teens? Yes. Older dudes with space entitlement issues? Yes. Twenty-something lads with EVERYTHING entitlement issues? Oh hells yes. Air travel is all around an all-around crappy experience.

  70. Esti: But I do think it’s a little ridiculous for people to be (rightfully) offended by a refusal to make any accommodation for children on flights and then turn around and say that people who have legitimate medical problems with loud noises should just deal with it or get out.

    Forgive me if this is obtuse, but what other options do loud-noise-sensitive people have other than dealing with loud airplanes or not flying on airplanes? It seems like you want the rhetorical space to have this complaint, and that’s fine, but I am unaware of practical applications that don’t significantly restrict the travel of others, namely children who may or may not cry on flight, to improve the lot of someone who is bothered by loud noises, other than advising them to use earplugs or find a more controlled, private method of travel.

  71. Rodeo: I don’t understand why we have assigned seating anyway. I like the way Southwest does it: get on the plane and choose a seat. No seat is better than the rest; they all suck, but they’re all going to the same place.

    Except there is a difference in preference between front and back, centre and aisle, getting seats together, etc., so then you would have people being assholes in the line trying to get in first to get their preferred spot. I like the way I’m used to on the lines I fly – when you book, you can pay extra to reserve a seat right then, otherwise at 24 hours before the flight, you can go online to check in and pick among the seats that are left (which is usually most of them if you get to it early), and otherwise you just get an assigned seat. So it’s first come, first serve, but not in the cramped space of the airplane itself. It’s a bit of a trick without Internet access beforehand, but I think you can do a phone check-in too. I just assumed most airlines worked that way, but maybe I’m wrong?

  72. @Becky

    Smiling at babies should be a given. They’re babies…it makes them giggle and I don’t think there is very much in this world more adorable than a giggling baby…except maybe a giggling and clapping baby.

    @Esti,

    Except no one glares at you when you put in ear plugs. There is no social approbation for flying with noise cancelling head phones. The NY Times did not just write three articles on how people with hearing sensitivities are so awful to fly with. I mean every freaking time someone says “Hey, maybe we shouldn’t treat moms and children like shit,” the response is “But they really are awful! Because crying!”

    Most people doing all the complaining about the noise do not have hearing sensitivities and most kids don’t hit 100 db. Its a tired excuse to be an asshole because its socially acceptable to piss all over mothers and children.

  73. Okay, a couple quick points –

    First of all, there ARE flights where airlines will not permit you (ANYONE in cabin class) to book seats – these include many international flights, and it is only on an international flight that I have ever been separated from my family. (And seriously, I would never ask someone to give up an aisle for a middle or window no matter what – but if you’re swapping an aisle for an aisle, who wouldn’t let a parent sit with a child? Who on this planet thinks it’s acceptable for a three year old to sit several rows away from her mother? The airlines know the ages of all children on their plane.)(And I love the whole “people who don’t plan ahead deserve what they get!” line – it reeks of all kinds of privilege.)

    Second, if we can acknowledge that 90% or even 95% of parents are doing their best, why do we fixate and rant and express vitriol against these rare parents who exercise zero control over their children on flights? I guess they exist, since so many of you insist that they do, but I have many times have my flight ruined by rude or drunk passengers by people who keep their seats back the entire flight, so I can’t put my tray table down or open the computer to show the video I had pain-stakingly planned to keep my toddler quiet, but never by a child, and yes that includes the trans-Atlantic flight I was kicked by a child the entire way and the numerous screaming babies in the night I’ve encountered. Since I’ve had kids, I now notice how many families are traveling – I count the kids on every flight I take, and I’m actually amazed by *how little* crying/bad behavior I hear. We notice when we are bothered and we don’t notice when we aren’t (when was the last time someone gushed about the time they flew on a plane with four or five babies and didn’t hear a thing? It’s happened to me. Babies/small children don’t always cry. I was sitting with my baby on my lap at the end of a flight, and the flight attendant said to me, in genuine shock, I didn’t even know you had a baby!)

    So here’s my two-part point – 1) Whenever you see parents traveling with small children, think to yourself, Wow, this is the worst day of these peoples’ lives. Do you think it’s awful to listen to some random baby cry in your row? Imagine how awful it is for those desperate parents trying to soothe him. Not only is there the desperation-public shame angle (and believe ME, we feel every dirty look), but studies have been done that suggest that parents are wired (biologically) to feel physical pain when their babies cry. Plus the isolated moments of crying for strangers are part of a larger continuum of a travel day that before the crying even began was probably full of indignity, frustration, exhaustion and shame. Do we – feministy, social justice types – think it’s actually okay to participate in making people feel like that? To respond to the suffering of other people with a smug, well, you should just DRIVE until your kids are 12? I mean, think about traveling with a kid with developmental disabilities who cannot control her behavior. Are people out there in the feminist-sphere not made uncomfortable by the amount of ableism in the requirement that these children “behave” or become invisible? The second part of my point is this – we need to think, really seriously, about the discourse we are creating about parenting and about children when we heap vitriol on families for existing in public space. It says that parents (mothers!) are lazy and bad, children are loud, out of control, nuisances, unbearable, they “ruin” people’s lives just by existing as themselves in public. Such discourses take on lives of their own – and this isn’t just about traveling, this is the way Americans talk about kids in almost all public spaces (except for the few spaces that are designated as “for kids”). So we are marginalizing entire groups of people (parents, children), shaming and belittling them – this on top of providing almost no protections or support for families, and in the midst of a child abuse epidemic (did any one read the bbc’s recent report on violence against children in the US?).The kyriarchy affects our attitudes towards all less powerful human beings, including children, and people who shame and belittle parents and/or children are strengthening the kyriarchy.

  74. I really dislike children. All Kinds of children, but mostly bratty children. I don’t necessarily think it’s their fault that I dislike them, but I don’t think we should equate disliking children to disliking other certain groups of people as insinuated early on in the thread- Children are unique in that they often have an underdeveloped sense of consideration, and tend to be highly self-centered- Not all children are like this, but certainly a greater number of children are like this than adults (while they are also plenty of adults who are ridiculously self-centered, it doesn’t usually manifest in quite as unsettling behaviour). The fact of the matter is, most of the time, self-centered, bratty adults don’t pitch a tantrum. Self-centered bratty children do, And for myself, I am very weary of children, lest they turn out to be that kind of child.In my experience, Children are simply more likely to have more extreme spectrums of behaviour, that makes me nervous around them, and I don’t think its an illegitimate thing to point out. I am delighted when children DO NOT act like that, to the point where I might almost consider children not so bad- but I’ve had too many experiences of truly entitled-acting children disturbing the shit out of other people, out of a sheer lack of consideration, that is likely unconscious, due to their youngness and lack of experience.

    Then again, even with my weariness of children, their tendency toward truly disruptive behaviours, and my extreme distaste for those behaviours, I have, on multiple occasions, given up my seat so that families can be together. I don’t see this as a big issue for myself, but thats because I don’t have any sort of physical or mental disabilities that would make such a request an imposition- which it certainly could be for others. I’ve also sat next to a woman with an infant in arms who cried much of the flight, and this didn’t bother me. Infants can’t help their behaviour- children throwing tantrums CAN help their behaviour.

    I guess my opinion on the issue is everyone should be considerate, including children. And if they’re not, they are not really fit to fly, and that goes for adults too. Of course, both inconsiderate adults and children will fly, but inconsiderate children will scream and pitch tantrums and kick seats and spill things, whereas inconsiderate adults will give dirty looks and make rude comments once in a while, and maybe shove you a bit on their way off the plane.

  75. Ryan: I was with you up until the bearing with seat-kickers bit. There’s simply no excuse for that.

    On an overnight flight I went two rounds with the mom and a third with a flight attendant before they finally offered to let me switch seats. The mom was outraged when I replied that I’m 6’4″ and paid extra for the exit row and that they can be the ones to move. I have no idea what would’ve happened if the flight had been full.

    I’ve always found that it much more effective to talk directly to the kids. You need to put calmface on and be really reasonable sounding, but explaining to children that, for instance, you’re feeling tired and are going to try to get some sleep so can they please just be careful of the seats around them has worked for me much better than talking to their parents. Kids pick up on the fact that people are treating them as an inconvenience or annoyance rather than actual people and it just reifies their behaviour.

  76. I once travelled from Auckland to Paris with a toddler who only started exhibiting signs of something amiss after we left Singapore. For 7 hours the only thing that would stop her screaming was me standing and holding her. Not sitting, not her Dad, nothing else. The wonderful flight attendants let me stand at the back in the galley the entire time (easier to do on a large plane of course). It was without a doubt the worst experience of my life. Standing and holding a toddler for 7 hours without a break.

    Everyone was very understanding. No one lets their little ones cry if there’s something they can do about it.

  77. @ Sheezlebub: Ditto on the Green Line comment — holy shit is that squealing ridiculous. I’m not super sensitive, but that is enough to make me want to stick my head in my backpack.

    I return to my standard argument with kids on planes: I used to be grumpy and assholish about it, and then I flew with my sinuses congested once. If screaming babies/toddlers are experiencing that kind of pain, anything they can do to relieve it has my sympathy.

    Also, I usually keep my earbuds in even during landing and takeoff, and I’ve never had problems with the flight attendants. I haven’t flown a huge range of airlines (Delta, Iberia, U.S., Continental, Vueling, and Frontier), though, so maybe it varies.

  78. I love to smile and engage with grumpy babies and toddlers on the bus and subway. It makes me feel good when I can get them to smile, and their moms (or dads, rarely) seem to appreciate it.

    Then again, I love babies in general. Obnoxious grownups bother me way more than crying babies on planes. They can’t help it, for God’s sake.

    I want to be a grandma, damn it! (I’m not holding my breath, though.)

  79. I hate this bullshit. Kids are allowed on flights. If parents run out of milk despite their best efforts, give them some goddamn milk. Children are people too, and I am really fucking tired of everyone–feminists including–pretending otherwise.

  80. @Jane–Yep. I’ve had 2-4 sinus infections a year for the past several years, and I am profoundly grateful that I no longer work in Boston. The sound of that goddamn squealing Green Line train makes me want to cry on good days, let alone when I’m getting over a sinus thing. I actually had to leave the station once and walk in the bitter cold a few years ago. I just could not take that.

    And WRT planes–I–jeez, people! There are kids have hearing sensitivity, there are kids who have sensory integration issues (and thus act out) and there are kids who have to deal with the effects of being non-neurotypical. So. . .I mean, sheesh. You’d think that the only people who cope with this shit are adults.

    Yes, I know it’s annoying (and painful) to listen to a screaming baby. But that baby is not being malicious and I’m not sure what we are supposed to do about this. Kick the family off the plane? Trust me when I say that my seven-year-old self certainly wasn’t out to annoy the grownups or put them through pain, and that I was in horrific pain MYSELF and that’s why I was crying. Jesus. The fucking adults are NOT THE ONLY ONES IN PAIN. And unlike adults, babies and children don’t have the self-control necessary to keep quiet and buck up (and seriously, I’m waiting for the special snowflakes to show up and lecture me about how agesit I am because WHEN THEY WERE SEVEN SOMEONE LOPPED OFF THEIR ARM AND THEY NEVER WHINED SO THERE). Holy fucking shit, I find it rather telling that in these threads, we get demands for empathy for beleagured adults and none extended to kids–many of whom may be dealing with the same shit as the adults who are complaining so bitterly about them. And it’s not as if their parents are like, “Oh! Little Johnny has quite a set of lungs on him, doesn’t he? We just love the sound of his crying!”

  81. Babies can’t chew gum to equalize the pressure inside and outside of their ears. Crying is their best bet for equalizing the pressure before their ears are damaged. Please tolerate babies crying during take off and landing: they really kind of have to.

  82. Southwest is not a good option for some people. For instance, if you are fat and want to not be hassled. Or if you have disability issues that make reserving certain kinds of seats important.

  83. If I’m next to a baby or child, I like to offer to help, holding them, playing with them, talking with them. I do love kids and I’m from a giant extended family, so it’s sort of expected that you’ll always step up and help with the baby.

    I think I just am not bothered by crying as much as other people, whining or spoiled children are much more irritating. But most of my miserable trips are with asshole adults.

    As awful as this is, I think parents should just give their kids cold medicine on the plane. Knocks them out, it’s harmless, and then junior sleeps the whole way in blissful silence. I know that doesn’t work for small babies, but it’s a thought for the older ones.

  84. Babies can’t chew gum to equalize the pressure inside and outside of their ears. Crying is their best bet for equalizing the pressure before their ears are damaged.

    Pacifiers and bottle-feeding help a lot too–the sucking motion helps the ears to pop. I once flew next a silent baby. Mom just whipped out a bottle every time the pressure changed, and not a problem was had. I suppose it might work for breast feeding, but I don’t know for sure.

  85. Esti: But I do think it’s a little ridiculous for people to be (rightfully) offended by a refusal to make any accommodation for children on flights and then turn around and say that people who have legitimate medical problems with loud noises should just deal with it or get out.

    Yes, again, I totally agree. I find it amazing that people who will understandably be angry at people who want to tell parents with children that if they don’t want to be glared at they shouldn’t fly, but will turn around and say pretty much that exact thing to people who have health issues re: noise or who just don’t get along with kids; that if they don’t like it they can just never fly. Many parents and their children will need to fly somewhere at some point. So will many people with noise sensitivities or who aren’t comfortable around children for other reasons. Both groups are within their rights to fly, and both groups are probably mutually miserable during the flight anyway. It doesn’t help anyone on either side to tell the other side that their concerns aren’t valid and that they should just shut up and/or not fly as if they all have their own private airplanes or magic cars that can cross oceans or something.

  86. This is a timely subject and one of the reasons that I have directed much of my business life to educating and empowering the travel industry about how to attract and serve family travelers. The response is gaining momentum, many of the airlines simply don’t “get it.” While I’ve given up expressing all the problems that families face when traveling with their kids, I’m doing what I can educate the masses about the true art of hospitality, especially for families who travel.

  87. karak: Pacifiersandbottle-feedinghelpalottoo–thesuckingmotionhelpstheearstopop.Ionceflewnextasilentbaby.Momjustwhippedoutabottleeverytimethepressurechanged,andnotaproblemwashad.Isupposeitmightworkforbreastfeeding,butIdon’tknowforsure.

    Yes, breastfeeding works great, aside from the potential to annoy other passengers, but that’s another discussion.

  88. Stephanie: Yes, breastfeeding works great, aside from the potential to annoy other passengers, but that’s another discussion.

    This is just what this conversation was missing: anti-breast-feeding comments.

  89. Or perhaps i’m jumping to conclusions and this wasn’t what you meant, Stephanie. I’m re-reading and maybe that’s not what you meant.

  90. hmm:
    (Andwhydoyouwantthefronthalfofthecabin?Nothingwrongwithsittingtogetherinthebackhalfofthecabin…)

    Any seat behind the wings is far more susceptible to turbulence/far less smooth of a ride, so the further back you go, the greater your chances of exacerbating the problems that cause babies to cry in the first places.

  91. I flew with my baby last month, he was 2 months old. I really didn’t want to travel with him that young, but my sister was getting married, and I was a bridesmaid, so I kinda had to be there.

    On the flight there, I nursed him during takeoff and landing, he slept most of the flight, and people actually came up and told us he was the quietest baby they’d ever seen on a plane.

    On the landing on the way home, he started screaming like I’d never heard him scream before. He refused to nurse. It was awful. Afterward, when we were in baggage claim, this woman came up and kept talking to him, saying “I certainly heard you, oh yes I did,” etc. I apologized (not that I hadn’t tried to do everything within my power on the plane), but she insisted on directing her comments only to the baby. Ugh.

    Same baby, same parents, I guess it was just that the nursing didn’t prevent his earache on that last landing for some reason.

    Also, I think Southwest’s seating policy brings out the worst in humanity. Kind of like Black Friday sales.

  92. Oh, and…it is really hard to try to wrangle a screaming baby, a boob, and a blanket to cover up!

    But the experience was kind of freeing, in a way. I learned that sometimes babies will be babies, and there’s nothing I can do about it. Now that I’ve been through it I realize that even though it was awful at the time, everyone survived, and it wasn’t a huge deal in the grand scheme of things. A Parenting 101 lesson, LOL.

  93. Ms Kristen – (I pointedly avoid the question of what is or isn’t adorable.) Isn’t smiling at babies an example of Female Privilege? Or, rather, doesn’t Man Smiling at Baby = Paedophile in the genral consciousness? Perhaps it’s just Heightened Gay Sensitivity. It’s too bad, as I get on quite well with anyone young or old enough to be my grandchild or my grandparent.

  94. suspect class: Or perhaps i’m jumping to conclusions and this wasn’t what you meant, Stephanie. I’m re-reading and maybe that’s not what you meant.

    Personally I didn’t read it as an anti-breastfeeding comment, but rather an acknowledgement of the unfortunate reality that some people freak out women who breastfeed in public.

  95. And that was supposed to read, “there are people who freak out OVER women who breastfeed in public.

    Oops. Sorry y’all.

  96. Annaleigh: unfortunate reality that some people freak out women who breastfeed in public.

    I dunno, I think it would make a great candid camera kind of show.

  97. DouglasG:

    Ms Kristen – (I pointedly avoid the question of what is or isn’t adorable.) Isn’t smiling at babies an example of Female Privilege? Or, rather, doesn’t Man Smiling at Baby = Paedophile in the genral consciousness? Perhaps it’s just Heightened Gay Sensitivity. It’s too bad, as I get on quite well with anyone young or old enough to be my grandchild or my grandparent.

    Gee, I can see how the ability to smile at babies trumps having to live in a profoundly misogynist society in which any discussion of the rights of women and children turns into a round of “but what about the menz??”.

    And I don’t know what “general consciousness” you’re referring to, but I smile at babies and their parents all the damn time, and the normal reaction I get is that the parent and kid will smile back. Though maybe I have some kind of ‘punk haircut’ or ‘wears a lot of florals’ privilege…

  98. I dunno, I’m uncomfortable with the ‘parents have a responsibility to always make their child quiet by being organised, having toys etc.’ thing. While I certainly agree that parents have a responsibility to their children, I also think of things like the flying to grandma’s funeral example. That means that one of the people who is responsible for their child just lost a parent and OMG might find themselves less organised than usual. Maybe even stressed and less able to deal with their child (who has, it is likely, picked up on the stress). Also, kudos to those who can afford to buy new exciting toys and portable dvd players and whose children never accidentally throw their favourite toy out of the pram on the way through the airport (which they’re then devastated about losing for the whole flight). Sometimes people experience bad luck, and then for some people the price of a plane ticket for a family is financially difficult and new toys and dvds on top of that are just impossible.

    It seems to me that earplugs are a much cheaper option and more readily available. And if you’re too disorganised to do the earplugs thing*…why should you expect parents to do everything in their power to entertain their kid (who, after all, might not be entertainable if they’re in great pain from the pressure etc.)?

    *and I think all of the worry about being told to take out earplugs for a portion of the flight is misplaced – I mean are flight attendants seriously going to wrestle you for them after you’ve explained you need them in because of a sensitivity to sound?

  99. Just to say about the “plan better and sit together!” lobby–

    a friend and I bought plane tickets together in January, flew out in August, and on the way back got seats 6 rows apart, which was not going to work as we were sharing one (large) carryon. So sometimes best laid plans and all that.

    We did complain, but I’m sure it’s only because our last names are intensely amusing–I’m brown-eyed brunette and my last name is Brown, and she’s s blue-eyed blonde and her last name is Blue.

    Yes, Ms. Blue and Ms. Brown would like to fly together, please. The airline attendant passed our tickets to all our coworkers for a chuckle before fixing our seats.

  100. Douglas,

    Interacting with small children is not on the approved Manliness List. Consequently one must first establish ones Manliness by crushing a beer can into one’s forehead, grunting, scratching and taking up excessive personal space. Only after demonstrating that you are fully compliant in all other respects with proper male behavior may you deviate by smiling at a small child. Or so sayeth every movie about men and kids ever made. Personally, I prefer making silly faces and occasionally funny voices to make infants laugh.

  101. I was once on a plane for 16 hours in the early 2000’s. A woman and her husband had a 2-6 month old child with them. It was colicky. From the moment the plane lifted off, to the moment it landed, the child wailed at the top of its lungs in a barely-human scream more reminiscent of some sort of air raid siren invented by a civilization of intelligent cats. it pierced every earphone and every attempt at muffling. The baby did not sleep. It stopped for perhaps half an hour somewhere over the Pacific. There were times when it was feeding that it was unable to wail, but by and large it was overpowering. The older woman behind me was livid and nearly uncontrollable in her inability to deal with the noise. A number of other older people were visibly uncomfortable, as well.

    For a while, some passengers were annoyed, but most were sympathetic to the mother and father. They were obviously extremely stressed. The father, in particular, was quite haggard. I recall seeing him grimacing whenever I looked over at him. The mother was detached and unconcerned about her child.

    When asked, she said that with a colicky baby, it’s important to let it cry and not reinforce its behavior. She had read Studies. You let the baby do what it does.

    By five hours, the woman was at her wits’ end, not because of the child, but because literally every one of the people on the plane – including the pilot – had addressed her and asked her to silence the child. The co-pilot got up from his seat, left the cockpit and came back in an attempt to address her directly. She would countenance no method of silencing the child.

    I know there are voices here that will say that we should all have shut up and just borne it in good humor, but let’s get real. Regardless of the general implications, this behavior would never be tolerated from anyone. I know this couple’s life must have been wretched beyond all possible calculation, but they were inflicting their personal misery on the rest of us.

    What was galling was the fact that the mother (I presume the father had no opinion or was contemplating suicide on a regular basis) felt that all other people should have to bear the results of her own punishment without rancor or even comment. She was very loud and pushy. When pressed, she even held up the race card (the couple was black), but that was shouted down in seconds by a good number of other black passengers, but she called the (Asian) staff racist for the entire trip.

    As it happens, her baby was determined to be a serious flight hazard and she was apparently barred from flying with her child on that airline. I recall reading a year later that she thought this was a grotesque travesty of justice.

    I wonder what people think of this episode.

    Personally, having been there, I wholly endorse without any reservation whatsoever the airline’s decision. Under no circumstances should she and her child have been allowed on the airplane.

    The husband – well, I don’t think he said a word the entire trip.

  102. And as for seat-kickers, when I was a teenager I was sitting on an 4 – hour flight to the caribbean and a child behind me was kicking my seat relentlessly. I asked the mother to stop the child; she did nothing. After the third request, her precise words were “kiss my ass.” Incidentally, we were on our way from SF to Florida.

    The child grinned and kept kicking the seat, though not deliberately; it was more of a casual indifference.

    I asked the stewardess to move me, but this was impossible. I asked them to talk to the mother, and they did. The mother denied that the kid was kicking.

    A lot of children seem to do this. In this case, by the half-way mark, my girlfriend in the seat beside me began shaking her seat in rhythm to music coming from the entertainment system. The mother, who was sitting behind her, complained and said her food had been spilled. At this, my girlfriend just smiled and said, “It’s annoying, right?” and sat back down. The sound of invective coming from the mother was off the scale. When my girlfriend ignored her, and then even rocked the seat again, the woman got up and slapped her hard on the ear. At this, things began to degenerate, but the staff were there already.

    Needless to say, the stewardesses all tried to help, but it wasn’t until the mother attempted to deck one of them (for getting into her face) that they intervened forcefully. She was restrained and moved to one of the seats reserved for the staff and told she was no longer allowed to get up except to go to the restroom, which was right there. Her child was moved to a seat close to her – with no seat in front. He cried a lot, seeing his mother roughly handled.

    I have no idea what happened to her, but there were two police officers waiting at the disembarkation lounge. I presume she was charged with something.

    Point is: This was extreme, and also two decades ago. But milder forms of this kind of utterly unrepentant entitlement behavior are ubiquitous.

    The question is:

    When does a parent’s rights to travel cross the rights of others?

    The need to be understanding of others’ difficulties is entirely dependent on their willingness to do their utmost to mitigate the ill effects their situations have on others.

  103. I’m not a big-time plane rider, although I have been on trains and buses that have had loud or otherwise “unruly” children on them. Personally, I’ve always been more bothered by the parents trying to get their kid to behave than what the kid is doing. Snapping at them to not stand on the seat, “be quiet,” “come here” or this or that. Sometimes even hitting the kid. I don’t ever want to have children, but to me it’s inspiring that small kids basically do what they want and haven’t been crushed under the pressure of social conformity or bullshit norms yet. Maybe we should all be screaming and running around on the airplane.

    Also, I think it’s important to note that no one has a right to be on an airplane. Airplane rides seem like a bit of a luxury…I don’t know how somebody could argue they DESERVE to be rushing hundreds of miles above the surface of the earth at hundreds of miles per hour. So if you can’t handle it…whether you’re a business traveler annoyed by kids or a parent feeling unaccomadated by airline staff…maybe try not going on airplanes. In my judgment, people who get bent out of shape by things like this are just empty people with boundaries issues, the sort of people who get offended by celebrities making bad fashion choices or who find pride in the accomplishments of their country, race, or college’s football team.

  104. Babies will be babies. Just as obnoxious alcoholics will be obnoxious alcoholics, for example. The former *really* cannot help it, though.

    I’ve traveled four times with kidlet in tow now – though never on planes, not just yet. He screamed a few times. He got the boobie. Most of the time, it worked, one time, it didn’t work. The one time anyone tried to say something to be about the outrage of traveling with an infant – and this is while he was sleeping peacefully, don’t you know – they got ripped to shreds. Figuratively speaking.

  105. DouglasG: Isn’t smiling at babies an example of Female Privilege? Or, rather, doesn’t Man Smiling at Baby = Paedophile in the genral consciousness?

    This is really culturally dependent. Every other culture aside from Anglo-American that I’ve come into contact with seems to expect that men will like and interact with children. And I’d also say that Anglo-American attitudes towards women interacting with children involve much stricter limits than they do in non-English-speaking cultures. There’s even a noticeable difference between the Welsh and the English as far as this goes: no one freaks out if an adult smiles at or plays with a child he doesn’t know on the bus, for example.

    Before I continue, can I clarify that I’m responding to the anti-child sentiments in the article that prompted the post, not the post itself or (most of) the comments here?

    Whenever a topic like this one comes up, it weirds me out that anyone could even consider it an issue. People travel, children are people. Yes, noisy, active children can sometimes be annoying, but so can noisy, active adults. Child noise doesn’t have any special annoyance properties that adult noise doesn’t. I’ve travelled on planes quite a bit and all of the really horrible nuisances I’ve encountered on board have all been created by adults with an exaggerated sense of their own entitlement.

    When these issues have come up on blogs, I’ve discussed them with my friends who aren’t USian or English and, to date, they’ve all thought the “I hate kids & I think that’s ok” attitude was both incomprehensible and totally a product of English-speaking culture. But my experience is limited to more Southern cultures (of various continents), so YMMV.

  106. Any seat behind the wings is far more susceptible to turbulence/far less smooth of a ride, so the further back you go, the greater your chances of exacerbating the problems that cause babies to cry in the first places.

    At some point there’s a difference between an infant and a child. Does anyone seriously ever get seated away from an infant? I can’t even picture an infant in a seat by themselves. An infant crying because of turbulence is one thing, but in this part of the conversation we were talking about a 4 year old getting seated by themselves. And I gotta say, when I was 4 I loved turbulence on planes. It was like a roller coaster. (But overall they are smoother now than they were back then.)

    Look, nothing on a plane is going to be perfect. First you say its impossible to get seats together and that justifies taking someone else’s seat. Then you say actually you can get seats together in the back, but you don’t want to have a potentially slightly bumpier ride and 5 minutes extra unloading time, so that justifies taking someone else’s seat. Sorry, that’s exactly why people are grumpy at the idea of parents with kids stealing their seat. If you really have no other option to sit together, people are sympathetic. But if you think you’re entitled not only to sit together but to take exactly the seats you want no matter what, then that’s getting harder to be sympathetic with. If you have a choice between booking seats together in the back, or booking random seats in the front and planning on taking someone else’s seat, you should just sit in the back and deal with the slight bumpiness. It really doesn’t make that big of a difference. If it really does, well, get you seats together in the back, and then ASK for two people in the front to trade. That’s more likely to work out because you’er trading a block of equally desirable seats instead of random middle seats.

    I’m pretty sympathetic in general to trading seats for people with kids. But if I knew the person purposely gave up a block of seats together because they were in the back half of the cabin, in favor of pressuring me to trade, I’d be really annoyed. That’s not ok.

  107. This is why I don’t fly, and why I will absolutely never have kids. Too mush self-obsessed whining from both sides.

    I’m extremely tired of the “you HAVE to put up with my children, because I’m an entitled douche” argument, and equally extremely tired of the “put your kids in the cargo hold, because I am an entitled douche” argument.

    Kids are going to cry. Some parents are going to be lazy suckholes. Some adults are annoying, disruptive buttheads. Its an airplane. They are designed to suck in every way possible for everyone involved. Everyone is miserable. That’s common ground.

    That said, the statement “I don’t like children” is in no way analogous to racism, homophobia, etc. Its a statement about the speaker, not the children. The speaker – in this case me, because I don’t like being around kids – is saying, basically, “I lack the patience/stamina/desire to deal with the demands of children, so I don’t.” That is not at all the same as what true bigotry is: hatred for something one can’t change. We were all kids once. We were all THAT kid once. Not true of real bigotry.

  108. Parents who are doing everything to soothe their kid get a LOT more slack than parents who aren’t.

    The social contract requires that we permit kids on planes and that we not vilify them for uncontrollable problems. But the key word is UNCONTROLLABLE. If the parent (and kid) can control the issue, then they must control the issue.

    If your kid doesn’t have a health issue which would prevent it, give them a damn lollipop even if you’re a dentist. Let them eat M&Ms the whole flight even if you don’t approve of chocolate. Put on the video game in the seat back even if you don’t approve of television. Speak to them sternly (if it works) and tell them to sit down, even if you normally believe in Free Spirited Self Exploration Without Boundaries.

    (As for me, I used to travel with a bag of lollipops and a pound of M&Ms. A lollipop lasts a solid 10 minutes and pound of M&Ms can really stretch if you give them out one at a time.)

    And do the work. If you can afford to fly, you can afford to buy some lollipops. If you can manage to plan a flight, you can manage to think about what your kids need. If you feel entitled to take from the social contract (so sorry, everyone else on the plane! Suck it up!) then you need to be obliged to GIVE to the social contract.

    When I flew/fly with my kids, I view “protect the plane” as my full time job. My children’s short term happiness does not override the comfort level of 100 other people. Even as a parent, I get really annoyed at parents who have a sense of entitlement, and who don’t try to keep their kids quiet.

  109. At some point there’s a difference between an infant and a child. Does anyone seriously ever get seated away from an infant? I can’t even picture an infant in a seat by themselves.

    I know someone who this happened to. She booked the flight for her and her husband and her baby, and put on the reservation that they were going to be bringing the baby in a car seat and strapping it to the plane seat. (She’d done research and found that this is the safest way to go, and was willing to pay for three seats rather than just two to keep her baby safe. And also, she really didn’t feel like having the baby in her lap for the entire flight, which was something like Seattle to Atlanta.) There are only certain rows of the plane where baby car seats were allowed, so the reservation system put the baby in that row, and the parents about ten rows back. As soon as the mother noticed this, she called the airline to get it fixed, but she was informed that the baby was seated in the only available seat where baby car seats were allowed, and both seats next to that one were already taken. They ended up having to wait until they got on the plane and explain the situation to the people who were assigned the seats next to the baby, and one of them was willing to switch seats with the mother.

  110. Some alternate ways of parsing “I don’t like children”:

    Not “I have negative feelings toward children as a group” but “I don’t have positive feelings toward children as a group.”

    “I am a female-bodied person who experiences cultural expectations that I will engage in child care and interacting with strangers’ children in ways that make me uncomfortable; the phrase ‘I don’t like children’ is a direct way of defusing that without requiring me to explain everything about the patriarchy each time I want to say it.”

    “In fact, I actually mean ‘I am uncomfortable with not knowing how the parents will react to me interacting with their children, and so I find it uncomfortable to interact with strangers’ children. Again, the simplified phrase allows me to express that without going into patriarchal dynamics every time I want to remove myself from a situation.'”

    “I am uncomfortable with unpredictability and other traits that actually, demonstrably are associated with child development at different ages. It should not be required that I like these things. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say ‘I dislike people who demonstrate unpredictability, among them most humans under the age of 5’ but again, there are virtues to simplified but inaccurate phrases.”

    I like kids fine, in general, but I think it’s odd that whenever someone says ‘I don’t like kids’ on one of these threads, the response is ‘try saying that about another group of people.’ I think it misses the point. Both because kids aren’t another group of people–and social justice for distinct groups isn’t fungible. But also because it ignores the shades of meaning behind phrases like that which should be obvious on feminist blogs where people examine both the mindfuckingly awful prejudice against mothers and kids, but also the pressure on women to be maternal in ways that may not be useful to all women.

    If we must have oppression olympics, then yes, obviously mothers win the jackpot. (The terrible, terrible jackpot. Sorry.) But I think it’s also legitimate to talk about the un-awesome pressures that non-mothers experience–in this case, pressures mostly experienced by cis women, straight women, feminine women, white women, and middle class women. Which is a bunch of privilege, admittedly, but their (our) experience of sexism still sucks.

  111. Li: Gee, I can see how the ability to smile at babies trumps having to live in a profoundly misogynist society in which any discussion of the rights of women and children turns into a round of “but what about the menz??”.

    And I don’t know what “general consciousness” you’re referring to, but I smile at babies and their parents all the damn time, and the normal reaction I get is that the parent and kid will smile back. Though maybe I have some kind of ‘punk haircut’ or ‘wears a lot of florals’ privilege…

    THIS.

    Also? While you may think we ‘get’ to smile at children, we’re also expected to be good with them, and it’s practically a crime against nature when a woman says she isn’t good with them.

    Goddammit. These conversations about kids always brings out the douchery.

  112. “I lack the patience/stamina/desire to deal with the demands of children, so I don’t.” This.

    How many people here consider women who don’t want to have kids (or adopt, or babysit, or take some other mothering role), to have somehow failed? Moms get glared at a lot, but the child-free sort also do, because apparently they have failed as women by not loving the tiny little screaming things. I firmly intend never to have kids, mostly because I am completely aware of my own desire to never, ever deal with this kind of behavior.

    As for, “I hate kids & I think that’s ok,” being weird? So what? Yes, I do, on both counts. What are people going to do to change me, make me watch someone’s kid for a week? Am I obligated to like kids because I happen to have a vagina? I already was stuck as the babysitter for my sisters’ kids. Predictably, I was tearing my hair out over it, and demanding that these little things get the hell out of my house, because there was no way I could deal with them one day longer. I’d be the worst mother, and I know it.

    I think that’s what this kid-hating or kid-loving thing boils down to. Do you have the patience/sanity to put up with uncontrolled behavior? Congrats, you probably like kids. Are you a high-stress type that can’t stand the sound of shrieking and crying and can’t deal with immature people? Congrats, you probably don’t. Neither of these is an issue. Some people are meant to be (role here) and some aren’t. Just like some people are meant to be mothers and some aren’t.

    Honestly, I don’t care if kids fly on planes or not, so long as they’re *reasonably* quiet. I can put headphones on and block out most talking and whimpering and whatnot. I applaud the efforts of the parents who try to keep their kids sane and behaving well. Even if it goes wrong, good for you, hey, we all have bad days. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, just because most adults aren’t ridiculous enough to overlook the screaming and wear their headphones and let their kids torment everyone else. But the parents who don’t give a crap, those are the big issue.

  113. While you may think we ‘get’ to smile at children, we’re also expected to be good with them, and it’s practically a crime against nature when a woman says she isn’t good with them.

    I suspect “I don’t like children” is another way of expressing “I’m not good with children.”

    I find it a lot of work to deal with kids who are in the toddler stage. That doesn’t mean I don’t like them, though it does mean I’m not always up for caring for them. I’m sure I would have phrased that as “I don’t like kids” at some point in my life even though I do actually like the kids when I’m not busy being an introvert or whatever else keeps me from wanting to interact at a specific time.

  114. @Sheelzebub

    Given his past comments I would guess Douglas was aiming for a chuckle using surreal humor…but failed to take into account the enormous numbers of trolls we’ve had recently which make his statement less obviously absurd.

  115. Some people must lead charmed lives. When they can’t exert total control over their environments and group, they fall apart. They want to turn jets into gated communities.
    As someone experienced with holiday customer service (screamers), switchboards(loud phones and screamers), machinery noise, and my current tantrum-throwing boss, who is living walking proof that beaten children do not grow up to be good people, I have one small significant piece of advice: Motorcycle earplugs will save your sanity. And, please, do mot ride Greyhound. I find passenger diversity fascinating so don’t complain to me.

  116. karak: I suppose it might work for breast feeding, but I don’t know for sure.

    It does. It is, of course, totally awesome to breastfeed while sitting so close to a total stranger that your shoulders are touching while the 14-year-old across the aisle openly gawks at you. I’m totally doing it for the attention. 😉

    Anyway, I don’t have much to add to the whole middle ground/most parents are trying/be tolerant of others/traveling sucks.

    Driving isn’t an option for us. It would take three days to get to my folks’ house by car. I know it sucks for you. It sucks for us, too. We’re doing our best. I hope you will, too.

    I just want to add that with the whole security theater thing, by the time the kid even gets on the plane, he or she has had to “be good” for around three hours. Before the flight even starts. Before the sitting on the tarmac for delays even starts. Before the two-hour layover where you planned to get lunch gets shrunk to a 15-minute sprint across the airport. Before the next flight doesn’t have any food, even for purchase, and you ate up all your snacks – the snacks you thought would last the entire flight – during the delay – and you didn’t get lunch – again because of the delay. Some times suck even worse than the other times, despite everyone’s best efforts and planning.

  117. Mandolin: If we must have oppression olympics, then yes, obviously mothers win the jackpot. (The terrible, terrible jackpot. Sorry.) But I think it’s also legitimate to talk about the un-awesome pressures that non-mothers experience–in this case, pressures mostly experienced by cis women, straight women, feminine women, white women, and middle class women. Which is a bunch of privilege, admittedly, but their (our) experience of sexism still sucks.

    Generally, not just speaking to you here, I think it would be cool to talk about the kinds of discrimination that mothers experience without ALSO having to talk about how some women among us feel pressured to have babies in the same conversation. Sometimes it would be cool to talk about shit moms go through without having it derailed by people who have no interest in becoming mothers, which is, as always, totally fine. But somehow, any discussion about the demands that mothers face, or a general discussion about the rights of children — devolves because the feminist community for whatever can’t reconcile the fact that mothers and the childfree are all women who deserve basic rights and whose needs are not contrary.

    Rare Vos: That said, the statement “I don’t like children” is in no way analogous to racism, homophobia, etc. Its a statement about the speaker, not the children. The speaker – in this case me, because I don’t like being around kids – is saying, basically, “I lack the patience/stamina/desire to deal with the demands of children, so I don’t.” That is not at all the same as what true bigotry is: hatred for something one can’t change. We were all kids once. We were all THAT kid once. Not true of real bigotry.

    The kind of mental back bends that a person in a social justice community has to do to not view children as an oppressed class is always amazing. So is the magical thinking that hatred for classes of people is bigoted when applied to one class of people but not another. “Not true bigotry” is the same line that the Supreme Court took when ruling against ageist hiring practices because we’ll all get old eventually, which still doesn’t change the difficulty for an older person to find or keep a decent living-wage job. Your “not true bigotry” line here doesn’t change the fact that people are advocating that children should not be allowed in public places that are allowable to all other social classes, even other “socially inconvenient” classes that we, um, tend to advocate for in the social justice community? Jesus. This explanation also waves off the basic reality that women tend to be the caretakers of children and that child-rearing is already an isolating phase of a mothers life in the West, and that along with our stated feminist desire to expand the lives and livelihoods of mothers so that they aren’t whittled down to one solitary uber-Mother role for the rest of their lives, trying to isolate children because they’re socially inconvenient is also paring down the rights, opportunities and movements of the women who care for them.

    Rare Vos: I’m extremely tired of the “you HAVE to put up with my children, because I’m an entitled douche” argument

    …well. I get that you’re trying to be equitable here with the entitled douchiness, but you do have to put up with children. Mine and everyone else’s. Because they’re people. They’re individual, dependent people. And they’re people who have the right to move around in the world with and without their parents, and they should have the expectation that the adults in the world that claim to fight for justice are safe people, are not assholes, and understand and have reasonable expectations of their abilities and lack thereof.

  118. Oh, and about Benadryl, for some percentage of kids, it has the opposite effect. They get really hyper. This happened to some friends of mine. They gave their 18-month old Benadryl for a 10-hour flight to Israel, only to have her bounce off the walls and scream the entire time. My husband had this reaction to Benadryl when he was a kid, so I’ve always been scared to try it for a flight and giving to them for no reason just to see what happens seems wrong too.

  119. chingona:

    The kind of mental back bends that a person in a social justice community has to do to not view children as an oppressed class is always amazing. So is the magical thinking that hatred for classes of people is bigoted when applied to one class of people but not another.

    THIS x 1,000,000. One of the many reasons that, although I still call myself a feminist, I totally get why so many women absolutely do not is just this.

  120. OK, that came out garbled. What I meant was that “well, children aren’t another oppressed group” bullshit was yet another of the douchey douchiness things that makes a lot of women view feminism, or at least many feminists, as a movement they do not want to be aligned with. I’ve seen so-called feminists actually try to claim that children are a privileged group. Yeah, good luck trying to float that one.

    And again I say: this is English-speaker crap and weirdness. Those of you who espouse it, don’t go trying to make out like it’s somehow something that most sensible people would recognise.

  121. DouglasG:
    … Or, rather, doesn’t Man Smiling at Baby = Paedophile in the general consciousness? …

    That’s news to me, though I can’t say that my mind-reading skills extend to “the general consciousness.”

    I smile and play peek-a-boo all the time with babies and toddlers on the subway or in line or wherever, and nobody has given me even a disapproving look. (Oh, and, for the record, I’m male.)

    P.S. to site admin(s): why does the “quote this comment” link remove all spaces from the quoted text?

  122. Marcie: One word: pitch.

    Now I see. We should definitely just box people up until they’re old enough to not be annoying based on age stereotypes. So, I’m guessing about 40?

    Why are you all out of your boxes?

  123. For the record, I didn’t say the part about the backbends. I am of two minds about the whole children as oppressed class thing and try not to get too theoretical about it.

  124. I just want to add that with the whole security theater thing, by the time the kid even gets on the plane, he or she has had to “be good” for around three hours.

    Also related to this, the idea that families with small children should be allowed to board first is completely backwards. If you want children to be quiet and well-behaved during the flight, DO NOT make them sit on the plane for an extra 20-30 minutes waiting for everyone to board. If you’re travelling with 2 adults, have one of them board first with all your carry-on luggage and the other wait with the kids to board at the last possible minute. While you’re waiting at the gate, have your kids run back and forth along the wall, or play Simon Says, or do jumping jacks, or anything at all that keeps them active and tires them out before they’re forced to sit still for several hours.

  125. Kristen J.: Everyone except James Earl Jones into your boxes.

    I don’t know. I think his volumes upon volumes of voiceover work is becoming kind of cliche, so I’m all about JEJ having his own box. He can come out for Star Wars conventions. Though I can see an argument for geeks being boxed up near-indefinitely.

  126. LotusBen: I’m not a big-time plane rider, although I have been on trains and buses that have had loud or otherwise “unruly” children on them. Personally, I’ve always been more bothered by the parents trying to get their kid to behave than what the kid is doing. Snapping at them to not stand on the seat, “be quiet,” “come here” or this or that. Sometimes even hitting the kid

    Yes. Exactly this. I get annoyed at children on public transportation, because I ride the train and subway a combined 4 to 4 1/2 hours per day to get from my apartment to my job and back again. That being said, I recognize that they have as much of a right to be in that space as I do, that children don’t seem to develop the understanding of what “in-door voices” are and how to consistently use them for a couple of years after they learn to talk, and that I’m generally annoyed by people by the end of my day.

    The only thing that makes me truly unhappy, angry and that bothers me long after I’ve left whatever public space I’ve been in with an unhappy or unruly child is the behavior of the parents. And the ones that continue to bother me aren’t the ones who let their children run around. They are the parents who try to control their children, especially the ones who hit. Those are the ones who stay with me long after I’ve left the subway or the train.

    I know that everyone has a child/baby travel horror story. But really, for the most part, it is an “in the moment” irritant. It doesn’t haunt you for the rest of your days. Watching a child get hit or berated in public ostensibly for the benefit of myself and the other passengers, though, does haunt me. It certainly didn’t make my ride home any better.

  127. I’ve flown with my now 15 month old son a couple of times, and let me tell you, it is no picnic, even when the child is completely well behaved. I think the vitriol about kids in airplanes comes from the fact that flying is uncomfortable in the best of circumstances, and kids are an unknown variable. Add in parents who don’t want to deal with the behavior and you have a truly upsetting scenario for pretty much everyone. My son’s first flight was probably the worst one we’ve been through, but I did my very best to keep him as comfortable and happy as possible. I was glad to see that pretty much everyone was sympathetic: http://sahmnambulist.blogspot.com/2011/06/leaving-on-jet-plane.html

  128. The kind of mental back bends that a person in a social justice community has to do to not view children as an oppressed class is always amazing. So is the magical thinking that hatred for classes of people is bigoted when applied to one class of people but not another.

    Thanks for highlighting this quote. I couldn’t agree more. I’m single and I don’t have kids, and I’m always appalled at the lack of empathy and compassion when it comes to children and mothers. To me, feminism isn’t just about me and my choices, it’s about building communities that respect and value everyone, especially those who are the most vulnerable. It’s not about thinking children are cute and cuddly. I don’t understand how one can see the high rates of children that live in poverty, are hungry, abused and otherwise exploited, and NOT see them as an oppressed class. All of that, and you “hate” children because some kid annoyed you for a few hours on an airplane? Children are people. Have some compassion.

  129. @Florence

    The wrongness of that statement is deserving of a derailing flame war, but I have the flu so I’ll have settle for a dismissive “Bah!” 🙂

  130. Kristen J.: The wrongness of that statement is deserving of a derailing flame war, but I have the flu so I’ll have settle for a dismissive “Bah!” 🙂

    I put out the bat-signal for zuzu, re: pilots, but nothing happened. I thought if I built it, she would come.

    (I re-wrote this terrible joke/reference a dozen times, so I’m going with it.)

  131. The last time we flew with our daughter we did all the right things, got our tickets early, got to the airport early etc. and they still had the three of us spread all over the plane. I told them to find two seats together because I wasn’t going to let my 6 year old sit by herself. Since we were getting a connecting flight at the time and even though our original tickets printed when we got onto the first plane where together (as we booked them originally) they printed up the boarding passes with us in separate isles. Next time we visit family we’ll take Amtrak. BTW our daughter has mild Autism but we keep her pretty happy with a portable DVD player, new small toys only for the trip, lots of snacks and lollipops for the takeoffs and landings (we found out later TSA stole the return trip candies from our searched luggage).

  132. Lol, NO JOKES! Laughing makes me cough, which hurts so all the world must accomodate me by refraining from doing funny things.

  133. Learning all kinds of things on this thread—didn’t know it was possible to ever get assigned seating in coach. I also didn’t know about the milk-is-for-coffee thing; I’d have assumed it was just another beverage for purchase (I’m also guessing that the parents in that example ran out of milk for their twin toddlers because of airline limitations on how much beverage you can bring in from outside.)

    It’s been a looonnng time sine I’ve been on a plane. My 12 year old daughter has never flown (and neither have about 98-99% of the kids in the grade school she just left, and at least 90% of the kids in her middle school). Plane fare is expensive. Last time I flew, it was to get to a relative’s wedding. The average person just doesn’t fly very often because of the cost, so it’s fair to assume that most families traveling by air are out of their element and don’t know all the “tricks”.

    I cosign to what Crys T said about Anglo culture and kids, but think its compounded by class. Middle-class folks and above are used to paying for the privilege of exclusive space. Usually quieter, less cramped space, too. That isn’t an option on most flights.

    Didn’t know that putting younger children in seats far from their parents was an airline practice. Seems like you can’t have it both ways—have parents maintain good behavior, while placing them at a distance. Hard for me to feel sorry for adults disrupted by bored kids who are basically in that position because they refused to switch seats with a parent.

  134. Mr Kristen, very well put. I have noticed that those deemed Manly Enough get to do basically whatever they please. But as about 20% of people who speak to me on the telephone address me as Ma’am (it doesn’t bother me being mistaken for female, but being “mistaken” for adult is sometimes depressing), I don’t think I have much hope of meeting that standard.

    Ms Kristen, thank you for being able to interpret. I’m sorry about your flu.

    Mr Li, it was not an attempt to make it What About Teh Menz. It was just a less blunt way of saying that I, as a fairly clearly unstraight male who has heard my kind equated with paedophiles about a few thousand times too often, have trained myself to need at least two signs of encouragement from a child’s parent or guardian. Three times in the last six months or so in my building, where I’ve lived for over twenty years (though now half of the residents are technical people working in the area who tend to stay about a year or two), when a small child has initiated eye contact or conversation, his or her parent has pulled the child back sharply and given me The Glare of Suspicion, though I’ve seen one of the same parents on a separate occasion prodding the child to respond to The Nice Lady when another resident of that description had taken a friendly interest and initiated contact. It sometimes makes me a little sad, as I get on very well with children, and might well have gone into education had there not been a big political backlash at the time I was the right age.

  135. I will happily volunteer to sit next to a crying baby. There is absolutely nothing as soothing as the sound of a screaming baby that isn’t my baby.
    We fly out to visit my mother once a year. That’s a cross-country flight, usually two legs, sometimes three, that requires getting up no later than four in the morning here and arriving at her house about four in the afternoon there, fifteen hours total – that includes at least three hours on the road. Our two kids are both ADHD and on the spectrum; so am I; so’s my husband. Past about eight hours of cumulative travel time, it’s not fun for anyone, and there’s not much to be done about that.
    If airports could possibly put child play areas near to more gates – not something huge and fancy, just a basic playhouse or such – those of us flying cross-country with kids would be much happier. Even airports that have play areas tend to have just one, and sometimes there isn’t time to go there, let the kids play and get to your flight.
    Also, if Trader Joe’s has figured out that a few cheap stickers can make a child happy, why haven’t the airlines? You don’t need expensive giveaways to make kids happy; cheap stuff works fine – restaurants that cater to families have known this for years.

  136. Kristen J.: Smiling at babies should be a given. They’re babies…it makes them giggle

    Untrue. For reasons I don’t understand, babies cry whenever we make eye contact. I’m like a Baby Medusa. On any kind of mass transportation, it’s best for everyone if babies aren’t allowed to look at me.

    Jane: I used to be grumpy and assholish about it, and then I flew with my sinuses congested once. If screaming babies/toddlers are experiencing that kind of pain, anything they can do to relieve it has my sympathy.

    Oh, sweet God in heaven, this. I flew from London to Toronto with the entire right side of my head congested, and I wanted to knock myself unconscious against the bulkhead to make the pain stop. I feel so bad for babies who can’t understand atmospheric pressure and popping your ears. Maybe when people gripe about mothers nursing on planes, we should tell them it’s for their own comfort.

    Kristen J.: Everyone except James Earl Jones into your boxes.

    The Boy has the most fantastic, deep, chest-rumbling voice, and friends will actually hand them their babies to hold while he talks–the kids go right to sleep. I should hire him out on planes for exorbitant rates.

  137. Didn’t know that putting younger children in seats far from their parents was an airline practice.

    It sometimes happens because of airline seating policies (e.g., letting people pay for aisle/window seats or reserving them for frequent fliers only). Also, if the airline changes aircraft and the new one has a different seating arrangement, that can throw things off.

  138. Oh my goodness. This topic gets to me.

    Regarding seating families together– We booked 3 seats together on a flight for 2 adults, 1 child, and 1 lap baby. We could not check in online before the flight b/c you apparently can’t do that with a “lap infant.” By the time we arrived at the airport we were scattered by the airline into 3 separate middle seats. (Because I’m just positive two people wanted to sit with my terrified 3 year old in the middle seat between them. Blah.) When we asked the stewardesses to help with this problem we were told they don’t “do” seating problems, and we were free to ask passengers ourselves. Someone eventually moved so one child sat w/ one parent and one child with the other. This, of course, meant the one dvd player we brought didn’t entertain both kids…. it goes on.

    As someone who does travel (infrequently and when necessary) with kids, it’s exhausting and it feels like a gauntlet. My kids mostly behave well. We bring lollypops for take off and landing, let them watch movies until they turn blue, bring crayons, stickers, a cooler full of snacks, etc. Still.

    Our most recent flight we brought a carseat for the youngest (she sleeps better in it). On one flight she slept 3 hours and it was the easiest flight ever. On the return, another screaming kid woke her up, and then she proceeded to be miserable (though not scream, luckily enough) because she was exhausted. We do the best we can, but we can’t predict everything.

    On Southwest? Godsend for a parent flying alone with a baby. I preboarded with the baby, and the people who *chose* to sit next to us liked kids. It was a short flight and they smiled and played peek-a-boo with her, and generally helped make the whole thing a fantastic experience.

    And changing tables. They really need them. I fully appreciate why no one wants me changing a gross diaper at my seat. I would happily comply. A toddler, however, does not fit anywhere lying down in your average airline bathroom– I have tried. I asked once to use the floor of the galley briefly & the airline folks refused. So I was left with my seat simply because there was nowhere else to go. I felt awful for my fellow passengers, but the airline did not want to deal with the fact that young kids on a flight need a diaper changed, and there needs to be a place to do it.

  139. Caperton: The Boy has the most fantastic, deep, chest-rumbling voice, and friends will actually hand them their babies to hold while he talks–the kids go right to sleep. I should hire him out on planes for exorbitant rates.

    Okay fine. James Earl Jones and your boyfriend can live box-free, but only if they agree to babysit.

  140. Ledasmom: I will happily volunteer to sit next to a crying baby. There is absolutely nothing as soothing as the sound of a screaming baby that isn’t my baby.

    AMEN. I’m pretty sympathetic to parents with screaming kids, having been there on occasion but mostly screaming kids just makes me want to hug my own.

  141. Florence: I put out the bat-signal for zuzu, re: pilots, but nothing happened. I thought if I built it, she would come.

    PILOTS ARE ALL AT FAULT. THOSE CARELESS MOTHERFUCKING KILLING MACHINES.

    Might as well throw my 2 cents in here: I am on record as not being down with kids being allowed to scream/run around in adult-oriented spaces such as bars and coffeeshops and non-family restaurants and R-rated movies. I am also all about actual adults-only spaces. Like bars. And kid-oriented spaces, like playgrounds. I am also on record as not wanting to spend any more time than I have to interacting with kids unless I choose to, which is why I’ve arranged my life the way I have.

    But while I do think it’s incumbent on the parents of children on planes to at least try to deal with their child’s behavior/discomfort (yes, I am speaking to you, parent who puts on noise-canceling headphones and pretends a) your child’s shit doesn’t stink; b) your child is completely silent because you can’t hear him; c) your child has no feet with which to kick the back of my seat), I cut kids on planes a lot of slack.

    Yes, even that little girl who sat next to me on the Southwest flight from Salt Lake City to Seattle and screamed at the top of her lungs the entire time because she was now 2 years old and had to sit in a seat rather than Daddy’s lap. And then threw up on my seat during the descent.

    Because flying fucking sucks. And it’s worse now that we all have to be fucking strip-searched/sexually assaulted to get on the flight and take off our goddamned shoes for the sake of security theater.

    And then we’re jammed into a tin can with ever-smaller seats and ever-less legroom and hurled through the air while attended by a flight crew that’s overworked, overstressed, underpaid and likely losing what union protections it has left. AND it’s noisy and smelly under the best of circumstances and there’s always some jackass that wants to tell you their life story for four hours.

    Fuck, if I could get away with it, I’d scream the whole damn flight, too.

  142. zuzu: Oh, the room! The wide seats! The cafe car! The ability to run up and down the aisles!

    And if you have the extra money…the private bathroom and showers! I adore amtrak. Only no dogs. Boo. So if people want us to bring the dog then we have to fly or drive. And alas for business travel I gotta fly. Boo.

  143. suspect class:
    Or perhaps i’m jumping to conclusions and this wasn’t what you meant, Stephanie. I’m re-reading and may be that’s not what you meant.

    Glad you caught that, as anti-breastfeeding is not what I meant. I’ve breastfed on planes myself. Best way to go with a breastfed baby.

  144. I <3 Florence. I'm just saying.

    (I've taken the children on Amtrak a lot. And on commuter trains. Trains are the very best.)

  145. Michelle — oh my goodness. The airplane staff doesn’t “do” seating problems? WHUT? That just can’t be airline policy, I have to believe they were making up on-the-spot policy that suited their convenience. Once I was seated next to a super hostile dude who kept elbowing me and — I can’t remember his exact words — hissed at me that I “needed to learn” to be less aggressive? rude? something because I wouldn’t shrink my body out of the way of his elbows — anyway. He was borderline scary, and I got the flight attendant to find a gallant man to trade seats with me. I was supposed to handle that myself? And get punched? Kids or no kids, passengers can’t sort through all seating issues amongst themselves.

    The changing tables thing — oh boy. I was astonished when I found out many current plane designs don’t have these (found out, of course, the hard way). It goes along, in my mind, with HORRORS BABIES CANNOT EAT IN PUBLIC regarding breastfeeding. HORRORS BABY POOP SHOULD NOT HAPPEN WE WILL PRETEND IT DOES NOT EXIST.

  146. I’ve never travelled by plane with my children, because it’s wicked-expensive. I haven’t even travelled by train by myself (although I’d love to) because it’s wicked expensive. We road trip a lot, and my god, those Portable DVD players are a godsend. 20 hours into Northern Ontario and I barely heard a peep.

  147. Kathleen: It goes along, in my mind, with HORRORS BABIES CANNOT EAT IN PUBLIC regarding breastfeeding. HORRORS BABY POOP SHOULD NOT HAPPEN WE WILL PRETEND IT DOES NOT EXIST.

    This, I’m afraid I can’t get behind. “Horrors babies cannot eat in public” is ridiculous because it’s food. “Horrors baby poop should not happen” is… Well, it’s poop. I have nothing but sympathy for a mom who has to change a gross diaper at her seat for lack of better options (a mom’s got to doo what a mom’s got to doo?), and I completely agree that planes should be equipped with changing tables–poop does happen, and the world needs to acknowledge that for parents (usually moms) to be out in public, sometimes the issue of baby poop will have to be addressed. I just can’t get there via the public-breastfeeding argument. Because it’s poop.

  148. Stephanie:

    Glad you caught that, as anti-breastfeeding is not what I meant. I’ve breastfed on planes myself. Best way to go with a breastfed baby.

    I apologize, after recent threads I’ve come to expect threads about babies to turn up some heated breast-feeding debate.

  149. Gorbachev @ 117:

    A woman and her husband had a 2-6 month old child with them.
    [baby cried] Literally every one of the people on the plane – including the pilot – had addressed the mother and asked her to silence the child. The co-pilot got up from his seat, left the cockpit and came back in an attempt to address her directly. … As it happens, her baby was determined to be a serious flight hazard and she was apparently barred from flying with her child on that airline.

    Wait. So this baby had two parents, only one of them was asked to do something about the problem (just what, exactly, are you supposed to do about a baby who wants to scream? Cover its mouth until it gives up? Remember how well that worked on MASH?), and only one of them was kicked off the plane? And how, exactly, is a screaming baby a “safety hazard”?

    I’d probably let my baby scream for 12 hours if my only other option was to perform a well-acted role of “concerned mother soothing her baby to make the other passengers happy.”

    (I assume that it’s impossible to make a baby stop crying if it doesn’t want to stop.)

  150. No one lets their little ones cry if there’s something they can do about it.

    Sadly, this is not true. As a frequent flyer, I have seen parents completely ignore their kids for the entire flight, even when they were crying, screaming, or shrieking. I mean, zero effort to deal with it. One mom even had noise-cancelling headphones so she didn’t have to listen to it.

    I have nothing but sympathy for crying babies, by the way, because their poor little ears hurt, and they don’t know how to fix it. My beef is with parents who let their kids act like hellions and do nothing to deal with it.

  151. Caperton — but every public breastfeeding debate makes a stop at poop! Someone says, “why can’t they breastfeed in a bathroom?”, ie, both activities are gross and people shouldn’t be subjected to them!

    The changing table thing I think *is* similar — that grownups might need facilities is taken for granted; when it comes to baby poop, you are *shockingly* often on your own. I can’t tell you how many restaurants and public setting have NO changing tables — I’ve even been to one demonic restaurant where they did have one, but installed at shoulder-level, so I had to change my kid practically with my arms over my head.

    I don’t know. I don’t want to get too paranoid, but I think the discussions feminists have about how unborn babies are THE MOST PRECIOUS contrasted with actually existing babies and the way their most basic needs are treated as totally inconvenient impositions incompatible with decent public life — well, I think feminists are on to something.

    in conclusion, poop.

  152. Li – yes! re: talking to kids. (If you feel comfortable doing so.)

    I’ve found that engaging kids directly and modeling behavior can do wonders with preschoolers and younger grade-schoolers in particular, especially if you are a strange and new adult. Being super nice to them and calmly, softly, cheerfully asking them to [stop annoying behavior] – as a favor to you – first kinda shocks them into silence and then sticks in their head longer than you talking only to their parents. Being grumpy – however justified – is only likely to up their own stress levels, and they are (most likely) much less capable of handling stress appropriately than you are.

    Kathleen – ha! sadly so true.

    Caperton, Kathleen’s point was not that pooping will happen, therefore poop in public is ok. It’s that pooping will happen, therefore if you do not make facilities for it to happen in private, it will end up happening in public.

    It’s not like not changing that diaper when it needs it is going to be the best scenario for anyone on that plane, especially the person sitting next the parent and child. As icky as changing a diaper on a seat is, it’s much less icky than a kid with a overfull and leaky diaper. (Aside from the whole issue of the child’s comfort, which is NOT a non-issue. imho, better the grown-ups that have some tiny hope of influencing the airline suffer rather than the kid who has no say.)

    Honestly, this is one of those cases where I think the main problem is that too few of the people in the design process (esp the suits that make the final budget decisions) have much practical experience in dealing with infants and small children. Because, in the end, everyone would be served best by a changing table somewhere on the plane.

  153. I had forgotten just how bad changing a diaper on a plane is. And, for those who don’t know, if you have a nursing baby waiting to change the diaper is not an option. That shit goes everywhere. Pants. Shirt. Hair. I am not exaggerating; the natural movements of a baby in a safety seat impart an unbelievable mobility to its poop, which, in nursing babies, is more-or-less fluorescent yellow-orange and mud-textured.
    Seriously, I had just about forgotten the days of carrying around three changes of clothes and coming home with a baby dressed in nothing but a diaper or, on bad days, a towel around the butt region.

  154. I got guilted into taking our (then) 18-month old daughter on a flight recently. My grandfather is in poor health, and my mother kept on and on and on and on about us all going down to visit him so he could meet his great-granddaughter. Eventually, I couldn’t take it anymore and agreed.

    Sigh.

    The flight out was delayed. It was past her bed time. She wailed. For about an hour.

    Thankfully, the people around us were all very nice (several mentioned they’d been there once too and offered sympathy). I was nearly out of my mind. First, your own kid’s crying is worse than someone else’s, psychologically. I felt terrible for her and was utterly unable of doing anything to help, which is maddening. Second, I spent the whole time feeling terrible about the rest of the passengers having to listen to it.

    The light back was much better. Still, I’m not putting her on a plane again for a few years, if I can avoid it. Flying sucks nowadays anyway.

  155. @Ledasmom #174: Oh, but you bring back such memories! (Shudder) Breastfeeding babies literally shit all the way up their backs, don’t they? When my baby was new, I confindently took him to the restroom in a nice restaurant, since I had to go anyway, and I thought I’d check his diaper. It was a lovely place with a long counter and I was able to change him there, out of the way of other women using the facilities. THANK GOODNESS, because he had shit everywhere. Back. Legs. Neck. And, yes, back of the head. It took me forever to get him cleaned up and changed. It was my first experience with Super Poop.

    We got back to the table eventually, and my husband asked warily, “Hmm. How did THAT go?” I said, “Look. New outfit. How do you THINK it went?” We love trotting out this story for the kid, now 15 years old. Of course once I was on to Super Poop, I handed off the kids to my husband any time I caught a whiff. “I feed, you change,” became my mantra!

  156. tinfoil hattie: Breastfeeding babies literally shit all the way up their backs, don’t they? …Back. Legs. Neck. And, yes, back of the head. It took me forever to get him cleaned up and changed. It was my first experience with Super Poop.

    Lol, it’s not just breastfed babies. I just changed my girl yesterday with poop down from the bellybutton all the way up her back. Ha.

  157. Seconded. Personally, I cut mothers with young children and babies a lot of slack. Everyone hates airplanes now. I wanted to scream the last time I was on a plane. I had breakfast at 6 AM and no food until 3 PM after that.
    My only wish is that people would stop taking babies into the theater at the museum I work at. It’s got a wrap-around screen and babies and very young children are just not built to handle it. And also? I wish people would stop holding me responsible if babies end up screaming in the exhibits. I have no control over it, and I’m not going to go and scold the parents.

  158. Eh, poop ain’t so bad.

    The near-collicky period around ~3 months of age, though, that was bad. 1-2 hours of inconsolable crying, 3-4 times a week. It failed the definition of collick (3+ hrs of crying, 3+ days a week), but it was close enough that my hold on sanity was tenuous at times. Thank goodness we had each other and a very helpful (retired and very patient) Nanna.

    But then it got better. And now, even as the “terrible twos” begin, she’s pretty awesome. Watching her mind develop is sooo freaking cool.

    It’s not for everyone. We almost didn’t do it. But having done it, I’m glad. YMMV. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Etc, etc.

  159. Florence on this thread is über alles and her comment at number 133 describes perfectly why this topic is so infuriating for parents, particularly in a social justice context.

  160. midnightsky:
    Iwonderifthere’sawaytoreliablyandsafelymakethekidssleepforthedurationoftheflight.Melatonin?Benadryl?Something?Wesedatepetssotheydon’tpitchafit…

    Or maybe we check them in as luggage?

    Seriously, though, if you’re taking kids on a long flight, you can do yourself a big favour by picking the best time. Go for the 9pm flight, not the 9am flight. Try to have the kid physically active before going to the airport. Much bigger chance the kid will fall asleep – more relaxing for your, and for your fellow passengers, and a better experience for the kids.

  161. FashionablyEvil: To get off the plane faster.

    Yeah – that’s important to me when I do business trips; I often have a tight schedule because I want to get there and back in a day, and make connections that give me as much time at home with my family. Getting off the plane 15 minutes faster can make a big difference.

    But when I travel with my children? No. Having small kids on a trip and being in a hurry is just a bad idea. Children need time.

  162. DouglasG:
    MsKristen – Isn’t smiling at babies an example of Female Privilege?Or, rather, doesn’t Man Smiling at Baby = Paedophile in the genral consciousness?

    Not in my experience. Sure, there’s always weird reactions, but the vast majority of parents are pleased and proud when strangers like their kids – at least as long as you smile, nod, say hi, etc, in a pleasant way. Some adult have the mistaken idea that kids are teddybears and that everyone can touch and pet them. Many parents (myself included) do not like that in the least.

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