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Things I Am Against:

Jill

Public marriage proposals. Sure, your flashmob is adorable (I guess), but public humiliation is not the greatest way to say “Let’s spend our lives together.” Also, there’s no way someone can say no in front of 200 people, so it seems kind of unfair.

And ok FINE I might have teared up a little tiny bit during that video, and I really enjoyed that her response to “Will you marry me?” was “Well DUH!,” but I’m standing firm on this one: Public marriage proposals are NO. I am officially opposed.

78 thoughts on Things I Am Against:

  1. Agreed. I’m firmly opposed to public marriage proposals. But public displays of love when done for a committed partner can be adorable.

  2. Meh. Proposals should be just a fun little stage exercise. No one should really be “popping” that particular question, public or not. I tend to think it should follow naturally from a series of significant conversations around the matter, and then can culminate in a fun little contrived act that you’ll be forced to recount endlessly to friends and family. Or was that just me?

  3. I agree. Also, and I never really thought about this before, but for some reason I spent most of my work day reading about Real Life Proposals on The Hairpin, I’m opposed to the guy kneeling. Especially in public. If/when I get proposed to/propose to someone, I don’t think I want there to be any kneeling involved.

  5. Surely it depends on the person, even though I remain firmly rooted in the ‘don’t embarrass me in public if you love me’ camp. I do know plenty of people (even members of my family,) who think the stuff I shudder at, like getting ‘Happy Birthday’ sung to you by the waitstaff of Applebee’s, being greeted at the airport with signs, or indeed, getting proposed to at Yankee Stadium, is exceptionally sweet.

    In my opinion, if you’re interested in marrying a woman who really appreciates tacky vulgar public displays then you would be wrong not to do a tacky vulgar wedding proposal. I count myself lucky that Mrs. Fat was happy for me to ‘pop the question’, so to speak, privately, tastefully, and followed by a bottle of Perrier-Jouet.

  6. Amanda Marcotte:
    Amen. Makes people wonder if she’d say no to you if you didn’t have a crowd behind you supporting you.

    Yes! The first time I ever witnessed this, it was my own youth pastor with his girlfriend. I was horrified, especially since I was Christian at the time and couldn’t understand how Jesus could approve of such coercion. (And then I read the Bible in more detail.)

  7. Here’s what bugs me about this. Do people really not get to talking this stuff out well in advance of any spontaneous proposal? This whole thing is like a foreign language to me. How do you not talk about long-term plans in the course of developing a relationship?

  8. I’m opposed to marriage in general but even if I weren’t, I’d agree being proposed in public would be incredibly embarrassing. Also, I must link this. Oh T-mac, you crack me up.

  9. Agree. The coercive element to public proposals squicks me out. My now husband and I did have a series of significant conversations about future plans, during which I informed him that I would say no on principle to any public, family dinner etc type proposal. In the end there was a fairly traditional proposal, that’s how he rolls, but it was private and there was absolutely no kneeling!

  10. I guess if you knew beyond a doubt that your SO was really into stuff like being proposed to in such a public way then great, nothing weirdly coercive to see here but you gotta know for sure. Comfort, boundaries, yada yada yada…

    Barring that, the whole thing was kinda cute and sweet but personally I found the crowd surrounding the couple as he actually proposed to be really strange.

    Also, I dig the new tag, Jill.

  11. Eh, to me it’s like everything else, if a couple has open/honest/equal communication, then I see no problem.

    Of course, my hubby and I had bought my ring *together* four days before the official public proposal, so I can’t say I didn’t consent or was really surprised.

  12. Two pairs of my now young married friends had public proposals – but in both cases the public proposals were made after lengthy private conversations between the young lovers about whether or not they were ready to be married. The proposals were in fact a kind of wedding announcement as performance art. And hey, it makes for a great story to tell your kids.

  13. I, on the other hand, am heartily in favor of them, which is why mr. biscuit gave me one.

    The running theme in these comments seems to be a pair of assumptions: 1) The people in question have never talked about their relationship, or even agreed that yes, they are going to get married; and 2) the proposee is doomed to be embarrassed by this public display of affection because (s)he must hate being the center of attention. Obviously I can’t speak for every couple who’s ever had a public proposal, but I would wager I’ve seen or been a part of more than most people here, and in all of them, the exact opposite was true on both counts. All the couples had already decided to marry, and the proposal was nothing more than a public display of love.

    If public proposals aren’t your bag, that’s fine. But it seems to me that calling someone else’s proposal coercive, tacky/vulgar (which…seriously?), etc. without knowing any of the details about their relationship or the couple in question is awfully presumptuous.

  14. What I’m against is the whole dynamic of a traditional proposal, where it’s up to the man to decide it’s time to get married and propose, and if the woman wants to get married all she can do is wait and hint, and if she doesn’t want to get married she’s under a lot of pressure to say yes to the proposal because he already spent a bunch of money on a ring and made a big romantic gesture. In that context, a public proposal is very problematic because it increases the pressure to say yes.

    But if a couple has already had a discussion and decided together they want to get married, and one person wants to make a big romantic gesture for the other and knows that their partner is into big, public romantic gestures, I think it can be very romantic. (Although if my husband had tried one on me I probably would have said no just because it would have shown that he didn’t know me *at all*… I do not like being the centre of attention. Fortunately he does know me and proposed in private.)

    (Sorry for all the run on sentences in this post).

    1. Uh-oh. Jill is blogging about marriage proposals…

      Don’t worry, Marksman, there’s no marriage proposal on the horizon for me. I’m still a cranky spinster cat lady.

  16. CBrachyrhynchos:
    Here’s what bugs me about this. Do people really not get to talking this stuff out well in advance of any spontaneous proposal? This whole thing is like a foreign language to me. How do you not talk about long-term plans in the course of developing a relationship?

    Amen.

  18. “Also, there’s no way someone can say no in front of 200 people, so it seems kind of unfair.”

    Bullshit. I could say no.

  19. Fat Steve:
    Surely it depends on the person, even though I remain firmly rooted in the ‘don’t embarrass me in public if you love me’ camp. I do know plenty of people (even members of my family,) who think the stuff I shudder at, like getting ‘Happy Birthday’ sung to you by the waitstaff of Applebee’s, being greeted at the airport with signs, or indeed, getting proposed to at Yankee Stadium, is exceptionally sweet.

    I don’t mean to derail from a comment thread I can only hope ends up with people lamenting that FEMINISM (of which Jill is the sacred and only representative) has to be more serious than this and that Jill is terrible for telling these people that they can’t get married because she does not personally approve, but I keep telling my friends and family that I was a garish sign and possibly balloons whenever I exit an airplane, and they keep refusing to indulge me.

    Also, are you (or anyone else who hates birthday songs) embarrassed to be with people who are being sung to? I know some people that don’t want to be around for that, and it really can put a damper on the amount of free sundaes I get.

  21. Heather: I keep telling my friends and family that I was a garish sign and possibly balloons whenever I exit an airplane, and they keep refusing to indulge me.

    Man. That’d be awesome. But then again I’m the type of person who threw herself a party when her divorce was finalized.

  22. put me down in the-even though my now husband wanted to “propose” we had already discussed getting married, even to the point of when and some ideas of what we wanted in a wedding. I was already in agreement. So the proposal wasn’t a surprise or new pressure-or public, admittedly. I don’t know anyone who has really been surprised, like they hadn’t already talked about getting married.
    which is a long winded way of saying “I agree, don’t assume that they haven’t talked about it just because most movie relationships are kinda creepy in that way” and also “take into account who you are proposing to”

  23. put me down in the-even though my now husband wanted to “propose” we had already discussed getting married, even to the point of when and some ideas of what we wanted in a wedding. I was already in agreement. So the proposal wasn’t a surprise or new pressure-or public, admittedly. I don’t know anyone who has really been surprised, like they hadn’t already talked about getting married.
    which is a long winded way of saying “I agree, don’t assume that they haven’t talked about it just because most movie relationships are kinda creepy in that way” and also “take into account who you are proposing to”

  25. Applause for the OP.

    The real proposal comes when there’s a real chance of a refusal. A public real proposal is rather horrifying, as so well set out in post #14.

    A public proposal backed by a private pre-acceptance has a kernel of sweetness at the heart of the impulse, but follow it all the way out, and it gets a bit disturbing. Flaunting privilege, anyone? And in California, too, of all places, where such a gesture might be more questionable than it would be almost anywhere else. There’s more, but I’m not in a sufficiently curmudgeonly mood to go deeper, which shouldn’t be necessary anyway.

  26. I agree that in the “real world” there is likely to have been quite a bit of private discussion prior to a public proposal; making it more of an announcement.

    It squicks me out when they do it in the movies, it seems both tacky AND coercive. To my mind the problem is the standard of men always deciding when its time, and women merely acquiesing; that has got to get changed. All the old song and dance about marriage, how ALL women long for and dream of thier wedding day and its THE most important day of thier lives and etc.. I’m pretty over that crap.

    OH but!! if everyone is in agreement, and its the kinda thing they like, why not do some tacky public thing!

    As for the kneeling. Well, I’m not the marrying kind, plus its still illegal for my kind to get married anyway plus I’m not crazy about big public spectacle.. HOWEVER I am the ‘I want my sh@$ and I want it yesterday’ type..so if I ever met the right lady and did wanna get married to her, you can bet your sweet tushes she’d be on her frickin knees! kneeling, jewelry, crap; I’d probably also demand a puppy! I mean, criminey, its a big comittment, I ought to at the very least get a puppy out of the deal. 🙂

  27. Good lord. IF I ever decide to get married, I’d probably elope because the idea of everyone watching me dance with my spouse and kiss him and feed each other cake, etc. would just give me hives. (I mean seriously? EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN RELATIVE WOULD BE TAPPING THEIR GLASSES.) So having a public proposal? Um, no thanks. . .

  28. I think the idea of one person springing such a huge decision on the other with no discussion about important issues is a little irresponsible

    That’s probably why it mainly seems to be men making this kind of proposal.

  29. I have an opinion that if people like being the center of attention, and have the money to pay for it, then by all means let them be the center of attention.

    I also have a less tolerant opinion that nobody, ever, should marry anybody who asked for permission from the father of the prospective person-to-be-proposed-to.

  30. I agree, but I don’t think anyone should propose before actually talking about getting married to the person they want to be with. That way you both know what the answer is and then you can do a formal proposal when the time is right, so you wont put yourself, the person you’re asking or your relationship in an awkward position.

    In that case, proposing to someone in public wouldn’t be a bad idea either, when the two of you have already talked about getting married and you kind of know what the answer will be.

  31. @stonebiscuit: “The running theme in these comments seems to be a pair of assumptions: 1) The people in question have never talked about their relationship, or even agreed that yes, they are going to get married; and 2) the proposee is doomed to be embarrassed by this public display of affection because (s)he must hate being the center of attention.”

    This. If the person proposing knows that their partner is totally into big public gestures, and they’ve had the conversations, what’s the problem? Public marriage proposals aren’t for everyone, and if someone does one knowing that the partner doesn’t like that kind of thing, then yeah, that’s a douchey move. If someone does one without knowing that the partner definitely wants to get married, that’s terrible. But for people who want to get married, the proposal is about THEM. I don’t think we have any more of a right to say, “Well, that’s the wrong way to do it,” than we do to say that to my friend who got engaged while they were both on the couch in sweatpants, or to my friends who just agreed to get married instead of a proposal, or any other method. The people in the relationship are the ones who get to make that decision.

  32. Well, sometimes bad taste is no more than bad taste, in which case people can do what they jolly well please.

    There are also differing degrees of public, as it were. Such a proposal might be made in front of a small group of close friends, or there are varying degrees of how intrusive the proposal is on those who have nothing to do with the couple.

    Given the precarious condition of marriage equality in many countries (and US states) and perhaps most of all in California, a highly intrusive heterosexual public proposal in front of strangers seems to me to merit rather more than eye rolls, even if, as a momentary thing, it doesn’t rise to the level of obnoxious attained by those men who sit on a bus with enough room in between their legs to fit a foosball table.

  33. stonebiscuit:
    I, on the other hand, am heartily in favor of them, which is why mr. biscuit gave me one.

    The running theme in these comments seems to be a pair of assumptions: 1) The people in question have never talked about their relationship, or even agreed that yes, they are going to get married; and 2) the proposee is doomed to be embarrassed by this public display of affection because (s)he must hate being the center of attention. Obviously I can’t speak for every couple who’s ever had a public proposal, but I would wager I’ve seen or been a part of more than most people here, and in all of them, the exact opposite was true on both counts. All the couples had already decided to marry, and the proposal was nothing more than a public display of love.

    If public proposals aren’t your bag, that’s fine. But it seems to me that calling someone else’s proposal coercive, tacky/vulgar (which…seriously?), etc. without knowing any of the details about their relationship or the couple in question is awfully presumptuous.

    I was the one who used the terms ‘tacky’ and ‘vulgar’ but I made neither of those assumptions you list, and your comments are in agreement with mine, that basically it’s up to the individual. My two points were that if you like things that I find ‘tacky and vulgar’ a) it’s not my place to tell you to feel the same wayand b) your partner should go ahead and do these things for you if they make you happy, no matter how much people like me turn their noses up at it. However, I also don’t apologize for my initial visceral horrified reaction to public gestures, or for being, as Jill says in the OP, ‘against them.’ Which doesn’t mean that I think people who are ‘for them’ are horrible.

  34. Becky: you don’t have any run-on sentences. Your sentences are long and multi-clausal, but they’re perfectly grammatical and understandable. And they are the expression of a very sensible person.

  35. I’m sorry, but I still had the best proposal of all time. I know I’ve told this story before, but in case anyone has missed said Best Proposal of All Time, it went something like this: He went off to work, and then when he came back, I opened the door for him buck naked. Surprise! What I hadn’t counted on is that he’d be standing there for a bouquet of flowers and a carafe of vodka, asking me to marry him. Bigger surprise!

    It sadly wasn’t public – but I suppose that’s a good thing, seeing as Moscow cops are of two minds when it comes to female nudity. On one hand, they tend to enjoy it, on the other hand, they still kinda know it’s illegal. Plus, it was cold outside.

    Obviously, we’d spoken about marriage before. In most cases, it’s best to lay the groundwork in advance.

  36. DouglasG:
    there are varying degrees of how intrusive the proposal is on those who have nothing to do with the couple.

    Given the precarious condition of marriage equality in many countries (and US states) and perhaps most of all in California, a highly intrusive heterosexual public proposal in front of strangers seems to me to merit rather more than eye rolls, even if, as a momentary thing, it doesn’t rise to the level of obnoxious attained by those men who sit on a bus with enough room in between their legs to fit a foosball table.

    I totally agree on the intrusive factor, and I generally don’t like to be intruded or invaded upon in public space. Let me do what I want, you do what you want, and let’s not impose & inflict ourselves on strangers, mkaw? That said I’m not gonna throw eggs or yell @ public marriage proposals, but I will be the eye roller who hopes they will be done soon so I can get on with what I was doing.

    LOLOL @ foosball tables, SO TRUE. I know a woman who started doing the same thing on public transit, taking up more space than is usually socially acceptable by seated women. ‘Course, I think it’s the men that need to mind their space-taking rather than women doing more taking, though I did appreciate the subversion for its message!

  37. Kristen J.:
    Agreed.I’m firmly opposed to public marriage proposals.But public displays of love when done for a committed partner can be adorable.

    Am I missing something here? My understanding is that “the question” only gets popped after a couple has already discussed this type of thing for a while.

    Among the people I know, the woman had already picked out the ring. The act of proposal (and the marriage ceremony) are kind of like an expensive formality at that point.

    If a guy pops the question without discussing it with his partner beforehand though, I find that infinitely creepy whether it occurs in private or not.

  38. I’m glad that at least some public proposals get planned in advance, because the media meme I know from TV and movies is that its somehow supposed to be spontaneous and about ~*~*~*~DESTINY~*~*~*~, with no negotiation or aforethought, which sadly mars the whole thing for me. The only public proposal I ever saw seemed really cute at first (it was at a local awards show I was attending, and we all went “D’awww” and cheered it on), but I found out after that she only said yes because it was public, had been really embarrassed by it, and turned him down and broke up with him right after. Made me re-think my initial reaction and soured the idea for me. If I ever had a partner who really wanted a public proposal, I probably wouldn’t object, but I think I’d try to work in a PSA about it being planned in advance so as not to give people the wrong impression.

  39. Natalia:
    I’m sorry, but I still had the best proposal of all time. I know I’ve told this story before, but in case anyone has missed said Best Proposal of All Time, it went something like this: He went off to work, and then when he came back, I opened the door for him buck naked. Surprise! What I hadn’t counted on is that he’d be standing there for a bouquet of flowers and a carafe of vodka, asking me to marry him. Bigger surprise!

    It sadly wasn’t public – but I suppose that’s a good thing, seeing as Moscow cops are of two minds when it comes to female nudity. On one hand, they tend to enjoy it, on the other hand, they still kinda know it’s illegal. Plus, it was cold outside.

    Obviously, we’d spoken about marriage before. In most cases, it’s best to lay the groundwork in advance.

    Was he naked with the vodka and the flowers? Or were you naked opening the door? Because if it’s the latter I’m wondering where the ring was.

  41. I considered a public proposal. It would have involved a Jumbotron and a major sporting event. I did some preliminary planning and basic research before discarding the idea as unworkable.

    Amusingly enough, in the weeks leading up to the proposal, my beloved had become increasingly antsy because she was expecting a proposal and it wasn’t coming. I was struggling with the engagement ring koan (I wanted to propose with a ring, but I wanted her to have input into the ring choice but I wanted it to be a surprise) . Much later, I found out that she was worried that I was actually planning a Jumbotron/sporting event proposal at the Football game I had bought tickets for the following month.

  42. I don’t care whether there’s a conversation about it ahead of time or not, if you put a proposal to me on a Jumbotron, I’m going to say ‘no’. As a baseball fan, this surprises a lot of people. The only way you get to get away with proposing at AT&T park is if you’re actually a member of the San Francisco Giants.

    But seeing as how I’ve vowed to never get married until everyone in California can marry, and am perpetually disinterested in being in a relationship, it’s a moot point.

  43. I don’t care whether there’s a conversation about it ahead of time or not, if you put a proposal to me on a Jumbotron, I’m going to say ‘no’. As a baseball fan, this surprises a lot of people. The only way you get to get away with proposing at AT&T park is if you’re actually a member of the San Francisco Giants.

    But seeing as how I’ve vowed to never get married until everyone in California can marry, and am perpetually disinterested in being in a relationship, it’s a moot point.

  44. Upon reflection I should have taken my ex-husband’s proposal as a sign that it wouldn’t really work out. Like really a lot. He actually did ask my parent’s permission first, but didn’t listen when they told him his plan wouldn’t work (I go to sleep early and it was a late-night proposal so I fell asleep before he could pop the question). So, yeah the consult-first with parents could have actually worked in his favor, but he didn’t bother take their advice and was shocked when the initial plan failed.

    This is also why I hate surprises.

    That said, we have all seen the video of the girl saying no to a public proposal, right? It’s terribly awkward and no one I know seems to be able to figure out if it’s staged or not. I’m too lazy to find it sorry

    I personally like the idea of a (pre-planned) proposal at a family dinner party, as yes, it really ought to be more of an announcement, and that way you have a cute story to share with the family.

  45. I didn’t ask my father-in-law’s permission, but I sit both my in-laws down and tell them that I had an criminal record (marijuana related,) just because I thought they should know.

  46. My proposal was semi-public and in retrospect, kind of embarassing, as I was in hospital at the time, and in a lot of pain, and three days off nicotine and scared for my life, so when he came in with the ring I started crying so hard and so loud that nurses rushed in to make sure I wasn’t dying.

    In other news, does anyone else feel squicky about the word “proposal”? Maybe it’s because in my line of work a proposal is a synonym for a price quote but it seems almost more suitable as something to call the prenup.

  47. Fat Steve:
    I didn’t ask my father-in-law’s permission, but I sit both my in-laws down and tell them that I had an criminal record (marijuana related,) just because I thought they should know.

    yeah, I’m totally pro getting parents on board/support for a decision that you two make. But, that said, my husband also got told explicitly that “if I found out you asked anyone’s permission but mine I’m going to change the plan to marry you” asking permission is creepy, admitting that marriage usually means you have to deal with the whole family is something I’m in favor of.

  48. Again, this isn’t your relationship. It feels weird to make a “you” statement and intend it to apply to most of the comments, but…

    This is between the people getting married. It has nothing to do with any of us. There are larger conversations about marriage inequality and the institution as a whole to engage in, but criticizing a proposal is not the way to do that. I wouldn’t want the Jumbotron proposal either, but I’m not going to say that it’s tacky or vulgar for other people to do it.

    I believe that all people have the right to define their own boundaries and relationships. We can’t say “Well, that’s an unacceptable way to propose,” any more than we can say, “Well, that’s an unacceptable way to have sex.”

    I’ve found most of the conversations about relationships on this blog to be quite engaging, but this one seems like a pile-on.

  49. Even if we could have afforded a proper engagement ring at the time, I’m kinda not a fan of those. Joke would have failed straight out of the door. 🙁

  50. I believe that all people have the right to define their own boundaries and relationships. We can’t say “Well, that’s an unacceptable way to propose,” any more than we can say, “Well, that’s an unacceptable way to have sex.”

    I think sex on a jumbotron would be unacceptable. Also flashmob sex. Think of the children!

    Also, let’s try this: Funny Post Is Funny.

  52. Jill: I think sex on a jumbotron would be unacceptable. Also flashmob sex. Think of the children!Also, let’s try this: Funny Post Is Funny.

    Psssttt…Jill, feminists are not allowed to be funny. Didn’t you get the memo?

    To: Feminists
    From: Feminist Central Authority

    Re: Conditions of Membershp

    The following are requirements of feminists:

    1) Must harbor cats, cat-dogs are not acceptable;
    2) Must own an afgan sweater in pearl grey;
    3) Must hate men, babies and bras;
    4) Must be angry, bitter and humorless;
    5) Must espouse all propositions detailed in the “Dogma” memoranda; and
    5) Must never participate in any beauty regimen.

    Failure to comply may result in a temporary ban from the Feminist discount warehouse, BitchesRUs – your source for the highest quality catfood and lighter fluid. Repeated infractions will result in the revocation of the Feminist Card.

  54. I believe that all people have the right to define their own boundaries and relationships. We can’t say “Well, that’s an unacceptable way to propose,” any more than we can say, “Well, that’s an unacceptable way to have sex.”

    Actually, yes we can. We can say whatever the fuck we want. We can’t force people to adhere to our personal mores, but then, Jill wasn’t trying to do that. FFS.

    Jesus H. Christ. She’s personally opposed. There will be no feminist thought police knocking at your door to take you to a reeducation camp. You can relax–the broader culture out there loves them some public marriage proposals, so public marriage proposal lovers are in good and numerous company.

  55. Ms Kristen, I doubt I could set out Rules for Feminism as clever as yours (and an attempt would be problematic anyway), but instead have tended to take John Mortimer’s character Ms Liz Probert as a walking parodic example.

    Rule #5 is used to great comic effect in *Rumpole and the Model Prisoner*. The secondary plot line deals with Fat Acceptance; you’d get a kick out of how it resolves.

  56. Kristen J.:

    The following are requirements of feminists:

    1)Must harbor cats, cat-dogs are not acceptable;
    2)Must own an afgan sweater in pearl grey;
    3)Must hate men, babies and bras;
    4)Must be angry, bitter and humorless;
    5)Must espouse all propositions detailed in the “Dogma” memoranda; and
    5)Must never participate in any beauty regimen.

    additional:

    5) must repeat numbers in a list.

    😉

  57. Sheelzebub: IF I ever decide to get married, I’d probably elope because the idea of everyone watching me dance with my spouse and kiss him and feed each other cake, etc. would just give me hives. (I mean seriously? EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN RELATIVE WOULD BE TAPPING THEIR GLASSES.)

    This is why I went to the courthouse when I got married. It started with the guest list and we couldn’t agree on whether it was mean to invite X relative and not Y relative, and every decision after that became an occasion for me to have an anxiety attack. Walking down the aisle? Giant dress? Public declarations of commitment?! DANCING?! Fuck that noise. I bought a cheap dress at Penney’s and we went to the courthouse. After that, our families took us out for a really nice dinner. Feminism/anxiety/feminist-anxiety mostly avoided.

  58. Could b no agree more because:

    1. It has a pressure element on it. I am not judging the one that do it, maybe the guy is completely sure that she will love it. This will be a normal effect of been part of the dominant group, if far more easy for us to see the male perspective than the other way around.

    2. I will still tell him no if I don’t want it, but the fact that he is making a marriage proposal probably means I care about him. I will do, but I will hate humiliating him in front of everybody. Not want to marry you not equal to I don’t care about you.

    3. It can ruin a working relationship. Maybe I am just not READY to commit.

    I want to stress that I am not basing this in a certainty about the motivations. Simply it don’t make sense.

    Avida

  59. Saw the video, the music the dancing the selection of the music,
    Some times is so difficult to be a feminist.

    I was crying like crazy; some men do beautiful stuff when they are in love. And society give us this expectancy that they will.

    If he have stop before the proposal, have here laugh and cry I will leave him alone.

    Maybe in a future people will free to be themselves and be assertive regardless of gender. On that day feminists will see our comments the same way that we some times, blind to the context, see some second and first wave actions.

    I hope it will come. If he has not proposed to her I will be dreaming with this until the back to reality light turns on.

    Avida

  60. I hate surprises and thus am in the anti-camp.

    However… if you have discussed marriage to the point where you know that you both want the same things in terms of children, career, and how you would handle marital finances… AND you have successfully thrown your intended a surprise birthday party which thrilled them… then go for it.

  61. We just discussed marriage and mutually decided.

    This is what my husband and I did. There are many people who are totally befuddled by this. “Wait, there wasn’t a proposal?! He didn’t get down on one knee?!” Um, no. We were taking a walk one evening and decided.

    In other news, does anyone else feel squicky about the word “proposal”? Maybe it’s because in my line of work a proposal is a synonym for a price quote…

    Pre-1900ish it would have effectively been a business proposal. Though I am married, I am seriously opposed to a lot of traditions surrounding marriage/weddings (asking father, taking your husband’s last name, being given away, etc.) in large part because those traditions derive from a time when a woman was effectively her husband’s property. (See coverture.

  62. 1) My father, upon hearing that some men actually ask their girlfriends’ fathers for permission, said “well, I don’t think I have a right to answer that question, but if someone dared ask me, I’d say no on principle.”

    2) My friend who’d had boyfriends who might have done the big stadium scoreboard proposal made rules to avert that, rules that basically required private proposal without saying so directly. She still got a big-time planned-out proposal, but on her terms and after some conversation about if it was time yet.

    3) My boyfriend knows that I don’t want either a big proposal or a ring; just a conversation about whether the time has come.

  63. Opheelia: This is between the people getting married. It has nothing to do with any of us.

    It does if we’re sitting in the stadium waiting for the game to resume while the couple uses the Jumbotron.

  64. kb: yeah, I’m totally pro getting parents on board/support for a decision that you two make.But, that said, my husband also got told explicitly that “if I found out you asked anyone’s permission but mine I’m going to change the plan to marry you” asking permission is creepy, admitting that marriage usually means you have to deal with the whole family is something I’m in favor of.

    Obviously the whole ‘permission’ thing stems from the financial arrangement situation described by FashionablyEvil @63, but do people still do that nowadays? I mean back then it was like ‘I have a monthly income of 750 guineas and a 140 acre estate with wworking farm and 90 pigs’ or whatever. I was still in school when my wife and I started dating, and I was actually doing my internship at a radio station and working part time at a video store when we got engaged. What would I say to my future father-in-law? ‘I’ve got $37.23 in my checking account, a credit card for $500 and $70,000 worth of debt for my education.’?

  65. @Douglas G,

    I wlll check that out as soon as stop procrastinating over this article I’ve been attempting to write for three weeks.

    @Fat Steve,

    Feminists can’t count!

  66. Obviously the whole ‘permission’ thing stems from the financial arrangement situation described by FashionablyEvil @63, but do people still do that nowadays?

    In the South? Ooooh yes. They do.

  67. zuzu: It does if we’re sitting in the stadium waiting for the game to resume while the couple uses the Jumbotron.

    This. I think it’s disingenuous to insist that it’s no one’s business when at least one person decided to make something private into a public spectacle. You can’t have it both ways–if you put it out there for public consumption, you will find that People Have Opinions.

  70. About a year ago, I was in the breakroom when two co-workers came in and started talking about Woman 1’s son about to propose to his girlfriend. From the conversation, I got the following:

    1. The girlfriend didn’t have any idea this was coming.
    2. The proposal was going to be at the son’s parent’s house (Woman 1 and family) and over a sit-down dinner.
    3. Son asked girlfriend’s father for permission to marry her and he agreed. See item #1. Creepy! (Woman 2 thought that was sweet.)
    4. He would present her a ring during desert.
    5. Woman 1 began telling Woman 2 about where and when the wedding would take place.

    Um, ladies, there’s something missing from this picture. The bride. You took immense glee in mentioning that this would be an awesome surprise. Yes, it’ll be awesome all right – in the original sense of the word. I remember thinking about that poor girl and hoping she’d say no.

    As for me, I’m a performer and I love the limelight. I don’t love being put on the spot. People do spring surprises on people and some people love these kinds of surprises (Normally I do. I love surprise birthday parties, but being asked to agree to a major life change without talking it over first and without thought and having to do it in front of people – not cool.)

    In general, the main thing is to know your audience and know who your audience is. (The person being proposed to, not the observers)

  71. I heard a horrifying story about proposals made public in a coercive way about my friends parents (who have been together and miserable for about 30 years – for the kids). He proposed to her in their home, and she said something along the lines of ‘give me a minute to think about this!’ She was in the kitchen for half an hour trying to think of a way to turn him down gently. When she came back into the living room, she found him with her address book calling all her friends and family announcing the engagement.

    Now, sure she could have still said ‘no’, but she felt so pressured, and not ok with the idea of telling everyone she knew that there was no engagement and in the heat of that moment went along with it. Its just not that easy to deal rationally with public pressure.

  72. Ryan: Meh. Proposals should be just a fun little stage exercise. No one should really be “popping” that particular question, public or not. I tend to think it should follow naturally from a series of significant conversations around the matter, and then can culminate in a fun little contrived act that you’ll be forced to recount endlessly to friends and family. Or was that just me?

    Agreed! I honestly don’t think that the idea of “popping” the question is a good one. The offer of marriage should not be a surprise to the person that’s being asked.

  73. That’s how mine worked!

    Ryan:
    Meh.Proposals should be just a fun little stage exercise.No one should really be “popping” that particular question, public or not.I tend to think it should follow naturally from a series of significant conversations around the matter, and then can culminate in a fun little contrived act that you’ll be forced to recount endlessly to friends and family.Or was that just me?

  74. Meh. Proposals should be just a fun little stage exercise.

    But can it ever be “just” that? Can it ever exist in a vacuum like that, without people interpreting even the tiniest bit of acquiescence or capitulation to traditional values of female subservience in the ritual? What would be the reaction to fun little exercises that subverted tradition, say the woman publically proposing to the man on bended knee, even if both planned and agreed to it beforehand? Would you think that it was just a fun little contrived act, or would you think that there was some meaning to it?

  75. Wow. Who knew that saying that people should be able to define their own boundaries would create such a shitstorm? I wasn’t the only one addressing this more seriously than it was originally presented. I read this post after a couple of beers and wrote exactly what I think. I’m at an age where a lot of my friends are getting married and I’m routinely troubled by the level of judgment directed at the couples’ choices about the proposal, the ceremony, the reception, and everything else. One woman’s parents are mad that they don’t want to pay for soda at the reception. Seriously.

    As for humor, I thought the Jumbotron sex thing was hilarious. And is probably a porn market on the internet. The OP, however, came across as a judgment on public proposals as coercive (which a good number of them may be) and humiliating (which we can’t determine, though I realize the woman in the video said, “this is embarassing;” it was definitely awkward because it went on for 7 minutes).

    Also: I have a cat, I don’t have a pearl gray afghan sweater, I like men and babies (and not just in sandwiches), I hate spending money on bras but I wear them (I also hate spending money on toilet paper but I use it), I’m happy, I like my life, I laugh, I’m not sure about the Dogma thing but I have a Dog, and I shave my legs and my armpits. Except for this week, because I’m out of town and I forgot a razor.

    So I guess I’m kicked out?

  76. I agree with the general consensus on public-proposals-as-proposals, and with the people who are perfectly fine with public-proposals-as-announcements.

    I think the whole notion of a proposal means something different in a social context in which (permanent) cohabitation is accepted versus when it is not. If marriage isn’t a matter of if but when, how much of a suprise can a proposal be? So in that situation the prior discussion can/could be curtailed, if not skipped: if the proposee weren’t planning to accept, they wouldn’t still be together.

  77. Meh. I think the concept of grand, romantic gestures in public is pretty disturbing, but if you know someone well enough to be propose to them, hopefully you know how they’d feel about a public proposal.

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