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Dating Advice for the Modern Lady and Gentleman

Old photo of a man at a dinner table, a woman passed out at the table, and another man throwing his hands up in frustration.

This dating guide from 1938 is pretty amazing — ladies, you should wear a bra, don’t talk too much, don’t put on make-up in front of men, focus entirely on what he wants to discuss and don’t get so drunk on the date that you pass out. As someone who has made every single one of those mistakes on a date, let me tell you, the more egregiously you behave, the more likely it is that the modern man will call you back and ask you out again. It’s one of those bizarre rules of the universe, like how when you go through a long celibate streak and you make an effort to consistently look great and shave your legs and wear cute lingerie you will not find a single person who has any interest in seeing you naked — until you decide to quit showering and you’re wearing graying period-stained underwear and you didn’t even bother putting on deodorant and you’re out at a bar only because you cannot take one more miserable night on your couch watching the Real Housewives and drinking wine from the $10-and-under table, and that’s when you’ll meet a super-hot dude who wants to lay you right then.*

That’s how the universe works for everyone else, right?

Anyway, this is all very good advice for the modern woman in 1938. “Don’t tug at your girdle” is definitely crucial to not blowing a date. But it’s a little unbalanced. Modern ladies get so much great dating advice (don’t talk too much, but make sure you talk some so that you aren’t boring! ask him questions but don’t badger or interrogate him! have a job, but make sure you don’t reveal that you make more money than him! wear make-up but not too much! wear a short skirt but not too short! wear heels because they make your legs look great but don’t wear heels because then you look high-maintenance!), and modern men get very little. So allow me to assist. From my own dating archive, my advice to the modern man looking for love from the modern woman:**

Do wear clean clothes to the date, but probably not your favorite over-sized fur coat.

Women don’t like men who leave their iPhones or Blackberries on the table during dinner.

If she’s dancing, get up and dance with her, for when a woman dances, she wants to dance.

Driving stick is sexy. Manage to hold her hand AND drive stick and the lady-boners will be poppin’.

Don’t discuss your bitch of an ex-wife.

If you take her to a dive bar and a drunk possibly homeless man hits on her, do not fly into a rage, and especially do not fly into a rage at her.

That story about how you once pooped your pants on the Jenny Jones Show? Save it until you know each other better.

It’s ok to mention that you also date dudes, but hold off on the part about how you primarily enjoy sex with men and only date women because you want to get married and have babies.

If you have an awkward sexual experience, you will not make her feel better by saying, “It’s ok, it’s definitely not as bad as the time I got puked on.”

Babies are nice, but a first date is not the time to mention that you want many babies, and you want them yesterday.

Pleat-front khakis? Burn them.

“I know this great little Italian place” is a great way to get a date, but the Olive Garden is not a great little Italian place.

If you ask her to dinner, don’t pick a place you can’t afford and then expect to split the check. The Modern Lady doesn’t mind paying half the bill, but she does mind an unexpected $200 dinner tab.

“What is this thing?” is not the proper response to a silk Isabel Marant body suit.

Be sure to mention your serious girlfriend before the end of the date.

Read books, or at least pretend to.

If you get a call during the date, don’t answer it. If you do answer it, don’t disclose that it’s a debt collector harassing you because you went on too many Barney’s shopping sprees.

Take off that gold chain.

_______________________________________________________________
*And if you’re me, you will not lay him right then because one-night stands scare you, so he’ll get your number and he’ll call and text you a dozen times and you’ll respond once before starting to ignore him because you’re embarrassed he met you in such a dilapidated state with your matted hair and probable body odor and oily t-zone, and you will also conclude that something is clearly wrong with him if he likes that sort of thing, and you’ll talk yourself out of going out with him by deciding that it will be extremely weird for you to show up to any potential date with clean hair and mascara on, because no matter what basic effort you make it will look like you are trying Extremely Hard next to the Garbage Pail Kids version of yourself that he initially met. And as you pet your cat and drink your wine and watch Bravo, you will wonder why you are single.

**This is heteronormative as all hell, but I primarily date dudes. Non-heteros, feel free to add your dating tips in the comments.


231 thoughts on Dating Advice for the Modern Lady and Gentleman

  1. What Jill forgot to instruct the fellas is that once you settle down with the woman, those “graying period-stained underwear” become the every-day standard. Rob Gordon really wasn’t lying in High Fidelity, cherish those first few months of dating when she’s motivated to wear those lacey thongs/boy shorts.*

    But really, this was very funny. Well done.

    *Says the fool giving advice on women’s undies to men on “Feministe” :/

  2. First, um,

    If she’s dancing, get up and dance with her, for when a woman dances, she wants to dance.

    That’s sort of circular, isn’t it? “If she is dancing, she wants to dance”. Well, of course she does, or else she wouldn’t be dancing.

    However, seriously, don’t ask men to dance. We hate it, we feel intensely absurd, we look intensely absurd, and it’s going to make us feel awkward and uncomfortable the rest of the night.

    That said, really, the rest of your advice is highly subjective.

    How about the ever-so-generic, tried-and-true “be yourself, and if your date doesn’t like it? Too bad for them.”

    1. Wow, it only took two comments for the humorlessness to step in. New record?

      Reminder: FUNNY POST IZ FUNNY. (Also, the dancing thing was taken more or less word for word from the 1938 guide, with genders switched).

  3. Jill what is proper etiquette for shifting while hand holding? Is it better to let go of her hand to shift, use your interlocked hands to move the shifter, or use your left hand to reach down awkwardly and dangerously?

    1. Jill what is proper etiquette for shifting while hand holding? Is it better to let go of her hand to shift, use your interlocked hands to move the shifter, or use your left hand to reach down awkwardly and dangerously?

      I think it’s ok to let go of the hand while shifting.

  4. If we’re planning on splitting the check, I’d prefer he mention the serious girlfriend at the BEGINNING of the date. If he’s paying, well, hey, free meal…

  5. “What is this thing?” is not the proper response to a satin Isabel Marant body suit.

    No, it’s the ONLY response. Because bodysuits? WTF? Learn from our early-90’s mistakes, Jill.

    Well. . .: However, seriously, don’t ask men to dance. We hate it, we feel intensely absurd, we look intensely absurd, and it’s going to make us feel awkward and uncomfortable the rest of the night.

    AND THEN SHE’LL MAKE YOU HAVE PERIOD SEX! THINK OF THE SHEETS!

  6. Well. . .: However, seriously, don’t ask men to dance. We hate it, we feel intensely absurd, we look intensely absurd, and it’s going to make us feel awkward and uncomfortable the rest of the night.

    Damn I must be seriously coercing all those guys who ask me to dance when I go out salsa dancing huh?

  7. “However, seriously, don’t ask men to dance. We hate it, we feel intensely absurd, we look intensely absurd, and it’s going to make us feel awkward and uncomfortable the rest of the night.”

    And then…

    “That said, really, the rest of your advice is highly subjective.”

    I do love unintentional irony.

    Side note – If Jill likes skinny blond hipster dudes she can have my ex, who used to drag me up to dance all the time. Much to my displeasure, as I really only want to dance if I’m drunk.

    1. Side note – If Jill likes skinny blond hipster dudes she can have my ex, who used to drag me up to dance all the time. Much to my displeasure, as I really only want to dance if I’m drunk.

      Skinny brunette hipster dudes are basically who I always date, but I am down for a blond!

  8. In my past dating history, here’s a tip for the lady lovin’ ladies:

    If she’s dancing, get up and dance with her. If not, there’s a good chance that if you blink, she’ll no longer be on the dance floor, she’ll be up on the table dancing, and someone that ISN’T you will climbing up to join her.

    This has happened to be. TWICE. With two different women.

    I have since learned my lesson.

  9. Oh, well, I still stand by it. Especially moreso if one is over the age of 21. Pretty much anywhere past that, dancing is silly.

    For the record, I simply shift left-handed while holding the hand of a passenger.

    Not advised for everyone, but if your handedness is more balanced between the two, it’s easier to do.

  10. However, seriously, don’t ask men to dance. We hate it, we feel intensely absurd, we look intensely absurd, and it’s going to make us feel awkward and uncomfortable the rest of the night.

    Speak for yourself; despite the knowledge that I look like a dying snake, I like dancing.

    I strongly suspect most non-professional dancers feel absurd shaking it to $whatever_the_dj_is_spinning, though the discomfort is notably reduced by various mind-altering substances.

    This is all serving to remind me that I haven’t been out to shake off a week’s frustrations in a long time.

  11. Do not suggest your first date should be at a talk about sexually transmitted diseases (unless she has a quirky sense of humor)

    Try to match sexual neuroses, if possible. Everyone is sexually paranoid about something these days. It’s just a matter of finding the right combination.

    Avoid making reference to ex-people beyond just a casual mention. You can weave these in later if you make a good match.

  12. Don’t pick your nose… even if you think you’re being surreptitious. You’re not.

    Crocs are not an ideal form of footwear for a dinner date.

    Don’t be an ass to other people (particularly wait-staff) while on a date. Or ever, really, but particularly when you’re trying to woo someone.

  13. Comrade Kevin: Do not suggest your first date should be at a talk about sexually transmitted diseases (unless she has a quirky sense of humor)

    I must suffer from the quirky sense of humor because that actually sounds awesome!

  14. Well. . .: Oh, well, I still stand by it. Especially moreso if one is over the age of 21. Pretty much anywhere past that, dancing is silly.

    Don’t go places that involve dancing then. Problem solved for you and the rest of us silly people can have fun in peace.

  15. Well. . .: Oh, well, I still stand by it. Especially moreso if one is over the age of 21. Pretty much anywhere past that, dancing is silly.

    Boy, you sure have a lot of RULEZ for when people are too old to do stuff.

    1. “Well…” sure sounds like a boatload of fun. Your date will be in an all-white room with no touching, no dancing, no joking, and definitely nothing involving body fluids.

  16. Comrade Kevin:
    Do not suggest your first date should be at a talk about sexually transmitted diseases (unless she has a quirky sense of humor)

    Do, however, talk about sexually transmitted infections and diseases, specifically what ones the persons involved may or may not have, before engaging in the horizontal hora. Oh, and a rational discussion of any birth control methods and usage plans would not be irresponsible, either.

  17. groggette: I don’t. Never did, even when I was an idiot teenager.

    zuzu: Dancing and “the club” are ideal places for the highly inebriated and absurd early-college kids. You don’t generally find grown adults out “clubbin'”.

    Point stands. There are simply certain ages where it becomes ridiculous to do certain things.

    1. You do realize that there are other places and ways to dance other than “clubbing,” right? I haven’t been clubbing in a long time, but I still dance in public places with some regularity.

  18. Women don’t like men who leave their iPhones or Blackberries on the table during dinner.

    The sweetest gesture my ex ever made toward me was turning off his cell phone whenever we were hanging out (for either hours or minutes). That didn’t stop the whole affair from ending really badly, but it was much appreciated and has been added to my Bonus Points list.

  19. Technosyncratic Travel Blog:
    Don’t be an ass to other people (particularly wait-staff) while on a date.Or ever, really, but particularly when you’re trying to woo someone.

    This. I was hemming and hawing on whether to go out with a guy that was kind of in my social circle, but didn’t know very well. A bunch of us went out for a group dinner, and he was an ass to the waitress, who was already busy and had to deal with us hooligans on top of it all. I opted not to go out with the guy after that.

    And as for Well… YOU might not like dancing, but there are many guys who are willing to get over themselves and actually DO enjoy dancing.

    (in other words, sometimes the ability to ‘get silly’ can be endearing and dare I say it.. a turn on)

  20. Jill:
    You do realize that there are other places and ways to dance other than “clubbing,” right? I haven’t been clubbing in a long time, but I still dance in public places with some regularity.

    I find the grocery store is GREAT for dancing. My kids may disagree with me on that one, though.

  21. Jill:
    “Well…” sure sounds like a boatload of fun. Your date will be in an all-white room with no touching, no dancing, no joking, and definitely nothing involving body fluids.

    Clubs and the like are great fun. If you’re 19. I’ve gone to one. Once. Because the friend who asked was overly sensitive and I didn’t feel like deflecting the hurt feelings.

    Would I go now? Nope. Do I judge the everliving hell out of adults that use such locales as “dates”? You’d better believe it.

  22. Jill:
    You do realize that there are other places and ways to dance other than “clubbing,” right? I haven’t been clubbing in a long time, but I still dance in public places with some regularity.

    Dance clubs, bars with dancing, pretty much anywhere that involves dancing could fall under the umbrella that I paint “club”. They’re all places I wouldn’t be caught dead in.

  23. zuzu: Boy, you sure have a lot of RULEZ for when people are too old to do stuff.

    Forget dating, I don’t think anyone under 40 wants to even be friends with this dude. BUZZ KILL. I bet he also gets out of the shower to pee :/

  24. I was one of those dudes who refused to dance, until finally my girlfriend at the time explained to me that 99% of women don’t really care if you actually CAN dance, just that you get up and make an effort. And at least in my experience this has turned out to be totally true – I wish someone had pointed it out earlier.

    Also I eventually figured out that learning to dance presentably isn’t really all that hard.

  25. @ Jill – clearly you and I should go out drinking together. * The blond was one of only two exceptions in a long string of skinny brunette hipster dudes (and one of those actually had black hair, he’d just dyed it).

    * Because, unlike Well, I have not dedicated my life to being as much fun as a root canal, I may even get up and dance with you if you want me to!

  26. Well. . .:
    Would I go now?Nope.Do I judge the everliving hell out of adults that use such locales as “dates”?You’d better believe it.

    Was anybody shocked as hell by this statement?

    No?

    Me neither.

    1. For the record, I don’t really care if a dude doesn’t like to dance. I like to dance, but if you don’t want to, that’s ok! I will dance with my friends, you talk to your friends, I will get hungry so we will get tacos and then we will go home together at the end of the night and that’s great. Zero complaints!

      What I will not tolerate is a dude who refuses to enter any space where there is dancing, and who thinks anyone who does is “immature.” Which means no shows (or at least no upbeat shows, or rap shows, or shows of most of the bands I like), no bars with dance spaces (and there are a lot of those in New York), no weddings, no parties. That sucks. That dude sucks. That is the most boring dude I have heard of.

  27. How sophisticated of you to curl your lip at dancing. So above that foolishness. I’m pretty sure that’s, like, an automatic turn-on for women.

  28. Hahaha. I like it when people who can’t dance go all cognitive-dissonance on the world at large and are like, “dancing is stupid! judgments! poxes upon bars!”

    I like people who can’t dance but try anyway.

  29. “(in other words, sometimes the ability to ‘get silly’ can be endearing and dare I say it.. a turn on)”

    Personally I rather like silly. Since I often work around aggressively cool people (music biz), I find it exceptionally endearing when people just don’t really give a shit if anyone thinks they’re being silly. The fact that I myself can get a bit self-conscious about looking silly just makes me value people who don’t share that neurosis even more highly. Teach me your secrets, oh I-don’t-give-a-shit one!

  30. Jill: I will get hungry so we will get tacos and then we will go home together at the end of the night and that’s great.

    I just learned about Union Pool. Not to blow up a place you probs look for skinny hipsters. And tacos.

    1. Ohhh PrettyAmiable, Union Pool and The Woods are classics. A good backyard taco truck will make me loyal to any bar. Although now I’m, like, ten years older than everyone there so it’s getting a little sad. But definitely a great place to meet 22-year-olds over tacos!

  31. Andie: I find the grocery store is GREAT for dancing.My kids may disagree with me on that one, though.

    When I was a kid I was not amused by my mom’s supermarket dancing. Now that I am 25 I will bust a move pretty much any time and place I feel like it. LIFE LESSONS: There can never be too much dancing.

  32. All this talk of dancing has caused me to grow a particular earworm by the band Men Without Hats.

    It’s probably in your head as well now. Blame Well…

    Insert popular paraphrase of an Emma Goldman statement here.

  33. @ Jill. This is perfect. I hate beards, so you can have all the bearded ones.

    Also, if one is above being seen in any venue where dancing is occurring, does that mean that weddings are out too? What about parties at someone’s house – should they also be avoided just on the off chance than someone might start dancing?

  34. Well. . .: Dance clubs, bars with dancing, pretty much anywhere that involves dancing could fall under the umbrella that I paint “club”. They’re all places I wouldn’t be caught dead in.

    This is my very favorite of all of the stupid things you’ve said today. Going to a concert? You’re at a club! At a formal event with a jazz band? You’re at a club! Teaching your local seniors center how to square dance? Definite club!

    I wish someone had let me know about this rule before I went to that awesome Big Bad Voodoo Daddy concert where my (male) date (voluntarily and enthusiastically) taught me to swing dance (which he was great at, and I looked intensely absurd while doing, and yet we both still had fun! ). I don’t think anyone there realized that “taking place at a country club” was just the long way of saying “club”.

  35. Jill: no bars with dance spaces

    I once tangoed in the middle of a coffee shop with a professor from a local college. I had never tangoed before and this wasn’t a date, we were both just regulars at the shop. It. Was. AWESOME.

  36. Oops…I am the worst SO evar. I never turn off my cell and my blackberry is always easily available.

    As for additional tips:

    1) Do ask if she has any dietary preferences before suggesting restaurant. A good friend did this on a double date a few weeks ago and I thought it was charming, thoughtful and informative (she was vegetarian-ish).

    2) Do not bathe in cologne.

    3) Do suggest activities that will be enjoyable for you both (rather than just you or just her).

    4) Do respect her comfort level regarding the level of aloneness

    5) Don’t drive too fast

    6) Unless you are a (1) astronaut, (2) fighter pilot, (3) philosopher, or (4) artist, do not talk about work for more than 5 straight minutes (unless she indicates otherwise). If you are a doctor, do not discuss work at dinner under any circumstances…ever.

    7) Do not say unkind things about your female relatives.

    8) Always carry mints.

    9) Tip well.

    10) Be considerate of your date’s feet. If her shoes look pinchy offer to get the car or suggest that it would be okay for her to take them off.

  37. Addendum to Kristin J’s # 5 – Do not demonstrate road rage while driving to our from your date with your new friend in the car. Swearing and the other drivers and threatening the lives of their future progeny may lead her to conclude that you have anger management issues.

  38. Places I have danced with the boyfriend are widely varied, but include a wedding, and a trivia night.

    Ways I have danced with the boyfriend include:
    – swing dancing
    – bush dancing
    – doing the “Greased Lightning” dance, to the soundtrack
    – slow dancing

    There’s a lot of dancing options that aren’t clubbing.

  39. Jill: Thank you. You’ll find, however, that a great deal of people find the concept of dance clubs to be a ridiculous activity best left to a very certain subset of people. The majority of people do not define “fun” with “dancing at the club”. Well, the majority of people not 17-21.

    groggette: Not at all. I am not forcing anyone to abandon their habits, nor am I attempting to use threats to sway anyone’s behavior.

    Jill2: Weddings? That’s not exactly an ideal date, now is it? Most people tend to regard those as either a chore, a request for money, or a place to get a bit of free food and beer before bailing. I don’t know anyone who likes being invited to one.

    I very, very rarely go to bars, and when I do, it’s generally not the kind early twentysomethings go to to dance. The clientele generally would be rather irritated if a bunch of loaded “omgpartygurlz” showed up to dance. Sure, there’s music, but you’re expected to listen to it, not jump on the table and dance to it.

    PrettyAmiable: More that I’ve never tried, and don’t care to attempt it. Doesn’t interest me in the least.

    CassandraSays: As I mentioned above, I hate being invited to weddings. I’d rather the betrothed just ask me for money, because that’s what it amounts to. I’ve dodged all but two invites, and one of them was because I assumed it was expected of me, being my sister and all. I went, I sat at a table, I drank, I left. Unpleasant.

    1. Jill2: Weddings? That’s not exactly an ideal date, now is it? Most people tend to regard those as either a chore, a request for money, or a place to get a bit of free food and beer before bailing. I don’t know anyone who likes being invited to one.

      I like weddings. But then again, I am a fairly happy person who enjoys celebrating the happiness of people I love, and I don’t see that celebration as an obligation or a cash-grab. I suppose we differ on that. (I also like open bars, socializing, dancing with friends, and generally toasting to happiness and good fortune, all of which usually happen at weddings).

      So Well, what do you like to do? Sit in a dark room with your significant other and complain? (I’m being extra-generous here and assuming you’re able to find a significant other who hates pleasure and joy as much as you do).

  40. Well. . .: Dance clubs, bars with dancing, pretty much anywhere that involves dancing could fall under the umbrella that I paint “club”.They’re all places I wouldn’t be caught dead in.

    Paging Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon, to the white courtesy phone…

  41. Andie: I find the grocery store is GREAT for dancing.My kids may disagree with me on that one, though.

    You and Mr. Kristen must have the same distant relatives. If we’re ANYWHERE (grocery store…shopping mall…home expo) and our song comes on…even the muzak version…M will stop whatever he is doing to dance. So if you see a short couple dancing around your local market to “At Last” just avert your eyes from the silly gooeyness.

  42. Esti: This is my very favorite of all of the stupid things you’ve said today.Going to a concert?You’re at a club!At a formal event with a jazz band?You’re at a club!Teaching your local seniors center how to square dance?Definite club!

    I wish someone had let me know about this rule before I went to that awesome Big Bad Voodoo Daddy concert where my (male) date (voluntarily and enthusiastically) taught me to swing dance (which he was great at, and I looked intensely absurd while doing, and yet we both still had fun! ).I don’t think anyone there realized that “taking place at a country club” was just the long way of saying “club”.

    I don’t go to concerts wherein people would dance. Nor a “formal event with a jazz band”. Considering I don’t have interest in dancing, I wouldn’t be out teaching seniors to dance. Especially square dancing.

  43. PrettyAmiable: I like people who can’t dance but try anyway.

    I went to law school with a guy who was terribly shy and introverted, but holy hell, did that white boy like to dance. He didn’t do it well, and he looked like a Viking having a fit, but as one of my friends said, “He hears something.”

    Also, if Well… thinks that it’s possible to be too old to dance, he’s never been around old Latin@s, who will take to the floor as long as they can still walk. AND they’ll look sharp while doing so.

  44. Kristen J.:
    Oops…I am the worst SO evar.I never turn off my cell and my blackberry is always easily available.

    2) Do not bathe in cologne.

    I believe this needs to be instructed to every college freshman. I stopped wearing cologne for work in late 20’s, but it a woman I dated in college informed me that she date me IN SPITE of the Issy Miyake I bathed in, not because. I was very embarassed and I often try and impart this knowledge to every 18-24 yr old male I meet. Unfortunately, I work with partners at my firm that still haven’t received the memo that 50 yr old’s need not smell like the DRAKKAR NOIR factory.

  45. Well. . .: I don’t go to concerts wherein people would dance.Nor a “formal event with a jazz band”.Considering I don’t have interest in dancing, I wouldn’t be out teaching seniors to dance.Especially square dancing.

    Oh, you don’t “attend concerts wherein people would dance”? C’mon dude. What kind of music do you listen to?!? You need to watch this:

    http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=219413

    There is something for EVERYONE!

  46. DO demonstrate all of your prejudices ASAP. Seriously. Think it’s funny to laugh at fat people? Let me know! Think trans- folks need gender pronouns related to their genitalia?

    These are things I found out about a guy I went out with last weekend. No date two. At least I didn’t get invested.

  47. …There are concerts where nobody dances? OK, classical concerts I will give you, but I’ve seen people dance at metal shows. (And then almost get knocked over by moshers, but hey, they tried.)

    I’m starting to think that Well is a very clever troll. Surely it’s not possible for anyone to be THAT much of a wet blanket.

  48. Willian: The last concert I attended was Peter Frampton. I was seated perhaps 2 rows from the stage. From my vantage point? No one danced.

  49. Well. . .: I’ve dodged all but two invites, and one of them was because I assumed it was expected of me, being my sister and all. I went, I sat at a table, I drank, I left. Unpleasant.

    Unpleasant, indeed.

    I’m sure your sister was thrilled to have you there.

  50. I was not suggesting that you would enjoy any of those activities, Well… You’ve made it quite clear that you don’t enjoy anything. My point was that it is absurd to label all places in which dancing might occur a “club”, and doubly absurd to suggest that only 17-21 year old party gurlz can/should want to go to those places.

    I am, however, happy to hear that you do not go to bars, clubs, weddings, formal events, concerts, or any other place where the waves of smug disapproval that you give off might interfere with other people enjoying themselves.

  51. And as an addendum to Kristen J’s #7, don’t say unkind things about anyone in your family regardless of gender. I knew a guy who would always speak of his family as if they were idiots including often saying, “My dad can’t read too good.” *shakes head* I found it very unattractive.

  52. Well. . .:
    Willian:The last concert I attended was Peter Frampton.I was seated perhaps 2 rows from the stage.From my vantage point?No one danced.

    I don’t (really) mean to pile on, but Peter Frampton?!? Were you of drinking age in the 70’s? In any event, see the video I posted. I’ve been to enough music festivals and seen people dance to ANYTHING. So even Peter F-ing Frampton and his silly guitar-voice gadget can inspire so snake dancing.

    I think there’s an underlying traumatic experience here that needs teased out. Well, it’s NOT YOUR FAULT. repeat after me….

  53. While they sit in that dark, silent room, Well makes sure to let her know how disgusting her bodily fluids are. Not that he finds them disgusting – it’s very important that she recognize that they’re just inherently disgusting.

    And then they go have sex while wearing full hazmat suits.

  54. Well. . .:
    zuzu:I was not thrilled to be there.Outside of rare events such as that, she and I do not speak.

    Alright, I call foul here. Well is a troll. Anyone THAT genuinely misanthropic would not take the time to post on this website continually.

    Well done, Well. You had me for a sec.

  55. Jill: I like weddings. But then again, I am a fairly happy person who enjoys celebrating the happiness of people I love, and I don’t see that celebration as an obligation or a cash-grab. I suppose we differ on that. (I also like open bars, socializing, dancing with friends, and generally toasting to happiness and good fortune, all of which usually happen at weddings).

    So Well, what do you like to do? Sit in a dark room with your significant other and complain? (I’m being extra-generous here and assuming you’re able to find a significant other who hates pleasure and joy as much as you do).

    You’re free to think that, so, experiment: The next wedding you go to, bring nothing. No money. No gift. Behold, sour looks, and lack of communication after the fact.

    It’s like when you get graduation party invitations. It’s really just an excuse to shake you down for a bit of cash.

    I enjoy movies. I also like amusement parks. Yes, I do have a significant other. Sometimes we do, in fact, sit around and complain.

    I don’t see how finding dancing to be ridiculous is “hating fun and joy”, however.

    1. You’re free to think that, so, experiment: The next wedding you go to, bring nothing. No money. No gift. Behold, sour looks, and lack of communication after the fact.

      Well yeah, that’s rude. And rude people deserve to be treated rudely. Look, it’s common courtesy if someone invites you to a celebration, you bring something. When I have BBQs on my roof, people bring wine or beer or something to eat. If someone hosts a dinner party, you bring wine or flowers or a dessert. It’s part of being a normal, polite human being. And if someone hosts a wedding, they’re paying easily $200 a head (easily, usually more) for you to be there, and for you to eat and drink and dance and enjoy yourself. So yes, it is a courtesy to send them a gift, not just as a quid pro quo but also as a a token of your appreciation and your love for the couple, and your well-wishes that they have a good life together.

    2. It’s like when you get graduation party invitations. It’s really just an excuse to shake you down for a bit of cash.

      Oh man, someone should have told my friends when I invited them to my grad party! No one gave me cash, we just celebrated together. And DANCED.

  56. Any Pratchett fans here? There’s one book where there’s a god that keeps banning things by declaring them Abominations. He Abominates many things, including cats, babies, and the color blue.

    That’s what Well is starting to remind me of. But less funny.

  57. Willian: What’s wrong with Frampton? I like good music. Harmony, melody, recognizable lyrics. I do not like techno, house, club, trance, Lady Gaga, rap, etcetera.

    CassandraSays: She also has no interest in period sex, sorry to break it to you.

    Willian2: So, wait, I’m a troll because my sister and I don’t speak to one another? How’s that? You don’t know any of the history behind it.

  58. My brother in law is 30, and has gotten nearly all of his many, many, dates via dancing. There ain’t nothing to get the ladies like a semi-pro salsa dancer who’s also a PhD in electrical engineering and a Nice Jewish Boy ™, apparently.

    Nota bene: He didn’t START dancing until he was over 21.

    For my own self, not liking dancing/refusing to dance is a strong potential indicator for DTMFA. I tend not to like what it says about your character.

    Well. . .:
    Oh, well, I still stand by it.Especially moreso if one is over the age of 21.Pretty much anywhere past that, dancing is silly.

    For the record, I simply shift left-handed while holding the hand of a passenger.

    Not advised for everyone, but if your handedness is more balanced between the two, it’s easier to do.

  59. Jill: It’s not rude. No one ordered them to spend a bloody fortune on a wedding. American excess at it’s finest. One could send out cards, ask for money, use wedding money as part of a downpayment on a house, and get married by a notary. Done and done.

    They’re still asking for someone to spend money to get dressed up, show up and make them the center of attention, and then give them money for it, as well?

    No, I’d much rather people be honest, and send me no invitation, and just say “Dear (me), I’m getting married, we need a set of dishes. Please enclose money.”

  60. Andie: Don’t bring a friend. (unless a double-date has been agreed upon ahead of time)

    Also, don’t bring your children unless this has been previously discussed. This happened to me; I didn’t even know he HAD children! Also, don’t cry on the first date because your spouse left you (same date, I kid you not.).

  61. Also to Jill’s Also:

    Well, I would have expected that from someone that chases skinny jeans that are filled with PBR and the death of culture.

    You fire one off, I fire back.

    1. Well, I would have expected that from someone that chases skinny jeans that are filled with PBR and the death of culture.

      BUUURRRRRN! (Proper grammar would have made that WAY better though).

  62. CassandraSays:
    Any Pratchett fans here? There’s one book where there’s a god that keeps banning things by declaring them Abominations. He Abominates many things, including cats, babies, and the color blue.

    That’s what Well is starting to remind me of. But less funny.

    Monstrous Regiment! And the god is Nuggan. That book holds a special place in my heart as it’s the first Pratchett I ever read.

  63. Yes. Because America is the only culture that celebrates weddings with a giant-ass party. I’ve traveled fairly extensively, and I’ve never been of (or heard of) people who don’t find the occasion worth a party.

    Does it sometimes turn to excess? Yeah.

    Well. . .:
    Jill:It’s not rude.No one ordered them to spend a bloody fortune on a wedding.American excess at it’s finest.One could send out cards, ask for money, use wedding money as part of a downpayment on a house, and get married by a notary.Done and done.

    They’re still asking for someone to spend money to get dressed up, show up and make them the center of attention, and then give them money for it, as well?

    No, I’d much rather people be honest, and send me no invitation, and just say “Dear (me), I’m getting married, we need a set of dishes.Please enclose money.”

  64. Well. . .:
    Willian:What’s wrong with Frampton?

    Willian2:So, wait, I’m a troll because my sister and I don’t speak to one another?How’s that?You don’t know any of the history behind it.

    Well, firstly, personally, I have no use for Peter Frampton, but music (like dating recommendations as you claim) is purely subjective, so it’s all good. The “Peter F-ing Frampton” is from a movie that I quoted above.

    Secondly, yeah, I call shenanigans! I know people that hate their family; or just don’t talk to their family, and they certainly don’t tell random strangers winding them up on the internet that they “don’t know the whole story” or give any other background. You’re taking the piss and/or are bored and need to engage some other humans. I’m on to you buddy! 😉

  65. Well. . .: Jill: It’s not rude. No one ordered them to spend a bloody fortune on a wedding. American excess at it’s finest. One could send out cards, ask for money, use wedding money as part of a downpayment on a house, and get married by a notary. Done and done.They’re still asking for someone to spend money to get dressed up, show up and make them the center of attention, and then give them money for it, as well?No, I’d much rather people be honest, and send me no invitation, and just say “Dear (me), I’m getting married, we need a set of dishes. Please enclose money.”

    You know that you can decline invitations and you are actually not obligated to send a gift simply because you were invited. People do, but no one is going to come to your house and arrest you or anything for not doing so. In fact, if you did this regularly, you’d probably stop getting invitations all together.

  66. Jill:

    And if someone hosts a wedding, they’re paying easily $200 a head (easily, usually more) for you to be there, and for you to eat and drink and dance and enjoy yourself.

    Hmm, I am going to be pedantic here. Someone has either been in NYC too long, or needs to come to the other side of the tracks more often 😉

    I’ve been to weddings where there was a buffet, a firehall, and a dj. 200 would have covered about 7 ppl. Certainly there’s in between, but I think a reasonable wedding can come off in the “real america” around 75-100 a head.

    1. Yes fair point about the cost of weddings — you can totally do them cheaper. That aside, however much the wedding is, be a polite person and send a gift. Even a small hand-made token will be appreciated if you can’t afford it. And if you think a wedding is a money grab, just send your regrets when you get the invite.

  67. Well. . .:
    Also to Jill’s Also:

    Well, I would have expected that from someone that chases skinny jeans that are filled with PBR and the death of culture.

    You fire one off, I fire back.

    What did someone say about trolls *cough*

  68. That reminds me, I need to pick up some Lone Star (Texas PBR) before softball tonight, then dust off my fixed gear for the pub crawl after that. I’ll be sure to incorporate dancing at one or both of those activities.

  69. “Well, I would have expected that from someone that chases skinny jeans that are filled with PBR and the death of culture.”

    Because if you consume a lot of something, that becomes the main element found in your body. I, for example, am approximately 70% green tea.

    Nice to know that the deep understanding of human biology is consistent right across the board.

    1. Because if you consume a lot of something, that becomes the main element found in your body. I, for example, am approximately 70% green tea.

      I am equal parts coffee, wine and cheese.

  70. Also – Nuggan! Now I’m going to have to do dig up that book. If nothing else then just for Maledict, who would have been my ideal partner at age 13.

  71. CassandraSays: It’s more a general dig at hipsterdom. Take trappings of multiple subcultures, dispose of all meaning behind said trappings, douse liberally in PBR and American Apparel, bam, hipster.

    Jill took a poke at Frampton, so I return fire at her love of the hipster.

    I could have sworn I posted this next bit already, but, perhaps I didn’t.

    Chava: Sure, lots of cultures have a party. The American average is almost 30 thousand dollars. That’s money much better spent elsewhere.

    Willian: I can say as much or as little about my family simply because you are all random strangers. I qualified when I responded to (I believe) zuzu, because I was expressing just how displeased I was to be at said wedding.

    If I did already say this, and it’s just in the queue, my apologies.

  72. A willingness to make a public fool/spectacle of oneself is a Main Criteria in my Life Partner Checklist. Or it would be, if I was motivated enough to write one. Ipso facto, willingness to shake it in the grocery store=high probability that you’re mature enough to understand that life is not Srs Bizness.

    Shoshie: QFT!

  73. Well… – you do know that the majority of clubs are 21 and up, yeah? (At least, in SF they are, and I’d imagine the same goes for most cities.) And that many of them draw hundreds of people a night…all of whom, due to that age minimum, are outside your acceptable dancing age range. So yeah, you do generally find “grown adults” out clubbing.

    LOTS of people in their 20s go to clubs, go out dancing as a fun night out. I used to go 3-4 times a week, it was *what I did*, it was my thing. Even at the 18 and up clubs, it was mostly people from their early 20s to probably mid 30s.

    You can think dancing and clubs are silly, but you are in a tiny tiny minority. Even people I know who never got into clubbing don’t think it’s silly or absurd or ridiculous or whatever other term you want to use to make yourself seem so much better and more mature than the rest of us. Seriously, get over yourself. You don’t like clubs? Fine, don’t go. And STFU.

  74. It’s ok to mention that you also date dudes, but hold off on the part about how you primarily enjoy sex with men and only date women because you want to get married and have babies.

    I dunno, Jill, I think that’s info I want to have pronto.

    However, seriously, don’t ask men to dance. We hate it, we feel intensely absurd, we look intensely absurd, and it’s going to make us feel awkward and uncomfortable the rest of the night.

    Also, we fear that if you shake your scary lady-parts too hard, and you are menstruating and do not have the decency to warn every male in a ten-mile radius, some of your DISGUSTING GROSS ICKY menstrual blood might splash out of your vagina and stain our clothing, ruining it FOREVER.

    Oh, well, I still stand by it. Especially moreso if one is over the age of 21. Pretty much anywhere past that, dancing is silly.

    Even worse: old people who go out dancing and then come home for a round of lube-involving sex. They are extra-silly, thinking that they’re allowed to enjoy their bodies once they are old.

    Dance clubs, bars with dancing, pretty much anywhere that involves dancing could fall under the umbrella that I paint “club”. They’re all places I wouldn’t be caught dead in.

    I must admit, knowing that has made dance clubs, bars with dancing, concerts with dancing, dance classes, weddings, graduation parties, etc. so much more appealing to me.

    That dude sucks. That is the most boring dude I have heard of.

    Jill, are you surprised? This is the most boring dude you have ever heard of.

    Most people tend to regard [weddings] as either a chore, a request for money, or a place to get a bit of free food and beer before bailing. I don’t know anyone who likes being invited to one.

    You and your doleful, unpleasant friends do not equal “most people.” “Most people” I know are, actually, genuinely happy for good news of those they love and enjoy coming together in what we in all cultures everywhere consider an occasion for a thing we do called a “celebration.” At these “celebrations,” people who are connected by bonds of affection enjoy one another’s company, break bread together, sometimes partake of mind-altering substances, and, yes, dance. Often the sound of laughter fills the room. As tokens of love and happiness, we do, if possible, provide expressions of good wishes and congratulations in the form of gifts.

    I was not thrilled to be there. Outside of rare events such as that, she and I do not speak.

    I’m shocked. She’s probably one of those menstruaters.

    The next wedding you go to, bring nothing. No money. No gift. Behold, sour looks, and lack of communication after the fact.

    Funny thing, I did that once. I was in grad school and had no spare cash at all. One of the best parties I was ever at, about…oh…seven years ago. Amazingly, my friend, the bride, and her husband continued to hang out with me, and we continued to enjoy each one another’s company for years, until she finished the program and moved away. Actually, I just visited them for the weekend at the beginning of the summer. Dude, the sour looks and lack of communication are not the result of you not bringing a gift. They’re a result of you being a jerk.

    Oh man, someone should have told my friends when I invited them to my grad party! No one gave me cash, we just celebrated together.

    So true, Jill. At my most recent graduation, my mother’s friends gave me presents, which was kind. My friends showed up and ate food and hung out. A few of them brought presents of the token “this black beaded necklace made me think of you” sort, but that was a complete surprise to me. If I had realized they would, I would have told them not to. Like the menstruating freak of nature that I am, I just wanted to have a party.

    No one ordered them to spend a bloody fortune on a wedding. American excess at it’s finest. One could send out cards, ask for money, use wedding money as part of a downpayment on a house, and get married by a notary. Done and done.

    But then they wouldn’t get to have a party. Many, many people like having parties.

    They’re still asking for someone to spend money to get dressed up, show up and make them the center of attention, and then give them money for it, as well?

    It’s not just dancing you don’t understand, is it? You actually don’t understand parties, and you don’t consider this lack of understanding an issue of personal taste, but rather an objective fact. Dressing up and congratulating people you care about for something that makes them happy is its own reward, for those of us who, you know, actually have the ability to care ability. I mean…asking you to “show up” and in nice clothing, no less! And to be happy for them about having found a life partner! What kind of selfish monsters are these so-called friends?

    You fire one off, I fire back.

    See, if you actually have to post a note indicating that your comment is an insult, it’s not actually a very good insult.

  75. Comrade Kevin: Do not suggest your first date should be at a talk about sexually transmitted diseases (unless she has a quirky sense of humor)

    Kristen J.: Unless you are a (1) astronaut, (2) fighter pilot, (3) philosopher, or (4) artist, do not talk about work for more than 5 straight minutes (unless she indicates otherwise). If you are a doctor, do not discuss work at dinner under any circumstances…ever.

    CassandraSays: And then they go have sex while wearing full hazmat suits.

    Haters gonna hate, but I’m pretty sure y’all just perfectly described the mating habits of the average medical sciences grad student. *goes to talk about STDs, follows up with lurid discussion of medical horrors over lunch, spritzes a little deodorant in her hazmat suit, busts out some wine* OH YEAH.

  76. Oh, and dating advice for straight men:

    DO look in the mirror before you leave the house to meet her and ask yourself the following question: do I look at all appealing? (Don’t worry–considering this question does NOT make you gay.) If you’re not sure, here are some basic tips: shower daily; wear clothing that fits (you know how you like to see the shape of a lady’s body? it turns out that many of them like to see the shape of yours as well. go figure.); brush your teeth and hair; make sure your clothing does not show evidence of having been crumpled on the floor before you put it on.

  77. Haha this has been entertaining for my slow Friday morning at work.

    At 25 I still LOVE to go out dancing like I did when I was at Uni and my early 20’s.
    Also remember that “suncreen song”? I love that the advice in that “Dance, even if you have no place to do it but your own living room” – I dance around the house all the time 🙂

    Anyway Dating Advice:
    Just Kiss Her Damnit!

    I went on a number of dates with a girl who was very flirtatious over text messages but didn’t make a move when we went out (apparently I ‘intimidated her’ she revealed, via text)
    Probably for the best – I didn’t like her enough to make the first move myself so it probably wouldn’t have worked out

  78. You know, if you decline the wedding invite, you don’t have to bring a gift.

    Also, weddings cost money to put on, so the couple may not in fact break even when the monetary cost of your gift is balanced against what they shelled out for your dinner and open bar tab.

  79. EG:
    Oh, and dating advice for straight men:

    DO look in the mirror before you leave the house to meet her and ask yourself the following question: do I look at all appealing?(Don’t worry–considering this question does NOT make you gay.)If you’re not sure, here are some basic tips: shower daily; wear clothing that fits (you know how you like to see the shape of a lady’s body?it turns out that many of them like to see the shape of yours as well.go figure.); brush your teeth and hair; make sure your clothing does not show evidence of having been crumpled on the floor before you put it on.

    AND TRIM THE HAIR IN YOUR NOSE!

  80. Even worse: old people who go out dancing and then come home for a round of lube-involving sex. They are extra-silly, thinking that they’re allowed to enjoy their bodies once they are old.

    EG, you so goofy! I know for a fact that when you hit 65 they put your head in a jar and you spend the rest of your life 1) waiting for your grandchildren to call and 2) uh…that’s all, I guess. I’m also pretty sure adults stop having sex forever as soon as they have children (where my now-totally-asexual parents got my younger sisters from I have no idea. Probably my mom budded ’em. :D)

    It’s a pretty small window for living, really: you get to start dancing at 17, then have to stop dancing at 21 — at which point you’re allowed to have sex, but only (at most) 3 weeks per month — and then you have to stop that frivolity PDQ and settle down to start making house payments and buying cars with stick shifts and sulking at weddings (which women coerce you into attending, natch) and complaining about how partigrrlz are alla time dancing on your damn lawn! which is basically a full time commitment.

  81. Advice for men : Don’t assume that because a woman you work with goes to get coffee with you that she likes you, or men for that matter. Some people just want coffee. Also it is considered rude not to mention your wife and kids until after you have tried to grope the woman you just had lunch with.

  82. Jill: And if someone hosts a wedding, they’re paying easily $200 a head (easily, usually more) for you to be there, and for you to eat and drink and dance and enjoy yourself.

    While I agree with the spirit of Ms Jill’s post in full, may I nominate this for a Marianne Dashwood Moment? I refer to one of my favourite parts of *Sense and Sensibility*, in which Marianne, shocked to learn that Elinor considers that wealth has much to do with happiness, professes the merest competence to suffice. Fortunately, Elinor suspects that they aren’t as different as they appear and that Marianne is just more noble in her ideas. Elinor laughs to hear that Marianne’s competence is an income of 1,800 or 2,000 pounds a year, 1,000 being her own idea of wealth. Considering that the cost per guest at the last wedding I attended, which was quite lavish enough, was about $100 per guest, the ratio struck me as a good comparison.

  83. the couple may not in fact break even when the monetary cost of your gift is balanced against what they shelled out for your dinner and open bar tab.

    Now you’ve got me trying to imagine what Well… would consider an appropriate wedding gift:

    Well…’s friend: Nice of you to visit us, now that we’re back from our honeymoon. It was so kind of you to give us the deck of cards and the checkers set. We so enjoy them.

    Well…: You are over 21, you know. You need something to do during the evenings when you used to go out dancing or to hear music or silly things like that. I figured you could play checkers and gin rummy.

    Well…’s friend: Um…thank you?

    Well…: Plus, it’ll let you get in some practice, so that when you turn 50 and have to stop having sex, you’ll be able to move on to chess and canasta. You know, if you can stand the excitement.

    Well…’s friend’s new husband (whispers to Well…’s friend): How do you know this guy again?

    Well…’s friend (whispers to new husband): Cousins. Just don’t tell him the sheets in the guest bedroom used to have a period stain on them, OK?

  84. chava:
    A willingness to make a public fool/spectacle of oneself is a Main Criteria in my Life Partner Checklist.Or it would be, if I was motivated enough to write one. Ipso facto, willingness to shake it in the grocery store=high probability that you’re mature enough to understand that life is not Srs Bizness.

    This is some of the best relationship advice– and dating advice– I’ve ever heard.

  85. Ok, more advice to straight dudes (or anybody else, for that matter; just change the pronouns as needed) that occurred to me as I was discussing sexual logistics in the period sex thread:

    If the lady comes back to your place, and you are fooling around, and you ask if fucking is on the menu for the evening, and she says that she didn’t bring any condoms with her, and you say that you have some, and then she says she can’t use those because she’s allergic to latex, DO NOT SAY “Oh, come on.” When she refuses again, DO NOT SAY “Just for a little while, we can stop if it starts to hurt.” She just told you that she is allergic to latex. There is no “if” involved. It would hurt, and would cause her to develop an infection, except that she is not going to have sex with you at all now, because you are a whiny jerk who doesn’t take what she says seriously.

    Not that I’m thinking of a particular incident or anything.

  86. I went, I sat at a table, I drank, I left. Unpleasant.

    Well…, I read your earlier comments and had, in fact, typed out a comment that said, “You’re one of those people who sits in the corner, drinks scotch all night, and glares at everyone else dancing, aren’t you?” And then I thought, “Eh, that’s projecting a bit.” Good to know I wasn’t.

    But they can be worn ironically.

    No, no they cannot.*

    *Possible exception for a Mom Jeans-esque SNL skit. But only possible.

  87. Now you’ve got me trying to imagine what Well… would consider an appropriate wedding gift

    A coworker of mine got his sister a shakeweight for her wedding. And then the wedding was cancelled (because she drama’d and then her partner drama’d, etc.) and would you believe the sister never gave it back? Poor dude was out a whole shakeweight, and no free booze! So Well here should console himself with how bad off he could be! 😀

  88. So….wait. You don’t go to weddings because you dislike the amt money spent on the party (it is, after all, their money), because you think its a “money grab,” because you just hate environs where people might dance, or all of the above?

    Well. . .:

    Chava:Sure, lots of cultures have a party.The American average is almost 30 thousand dollars.That’s money much better spent elsewhere.

  89. Zuzu: Great, now I’m going to have that stuck in my head for a long, long time. Thanks.
    Cassandrasays: Hah! That was Monstrous Regiment.

  90. Freaking hilarious, Jill. Thanks for making my night. Really and truly. And I loved the ** point the best. I would think the same. Oh, and while I agree with you on no pleated khakis and skinny brunette hispter dudes (even at 40, I appreciate them and even work with a young one who I am very hot for), I have to say – you really like that Isabel Marant silk suit thingy ? Maybe you like them at 27 or 28, but I assure you, once you’re 40 it will feel too close to a matronly thing and you won’t want it. Even if your body still looks good. Trust me on this.

  91. When she refuses again, DO NOT SAY “Just for a little while, we can stop if it starts to hurt.” She just told you that she is allergic to latex. There is no “if” involved.

    Lol wut. Because there is nothing sexier than playing “chicken” with someone’s serious allergies! It’s like how if I wanted to sleep with someone with an allergy to peanuts I would bring peanut oil and offer them a full-body massage. “What, honey? Anaphal–wha? Stop teasing, you lil’ joker, you! Everyone likes massages! Epi-pen? I think you mean SEXY-pen amiright! ^^ <3 <3 <3"

  92. EG:
    wear clothing that fits (you know how you like to see the shape of a lady’s body?it turns out that many of them like to see the shape of yours as well.go figure.);

    THIS THIS A THOUSAND TIMES THIS. I hate to steal Well…’s age-policing thunder, but if you are over the age of oh.. say.. 23…. cover your ass already. WEAR PANTS THAT FIT. It’s no longer cool (not that it ever was) to be able to see your underpants because either A) your pants are five sizes too big or B) your pants are five sizes too small.

    /rant

  93. I must say, this is one of my favorite comment threads @ Feministe OF ALL TIME. If I were drinking a coke, I would be snorting it through my nose with laughter as we speak. While dancing. At a wedding. Making it rain with wads of cash.

    Thanks for keepin’ the LOLZ coming :D!

  94. Well. . .:
    groggette:I don’t.Never did, even when I was an idiot teenager.

    zuzu:Dancing and “the club” are ideal places for the highly inebriated and absurd early-college kids.You don’t generally find grown adults out “clubbin’”.

    Point stands.There are simply certain ages where it becomes ridiculous to do certain things.

    I’m … going to guess that black tie professional holiday parties where everybody does the Cupid Shuffe, the Cha Cha Slide, and gets into other line-ish shenanigans when they get a little buzz on, are not exactly your cuppa?

    In short, I’m not quite sure you sound like much of a fun date.
    :-/

    Cassandra – I will cut a rug with your blond ex- whenever.

  95. Wait, weddings are a cash-grab? I thought most people spent money on their weddings? You know, so they could have a big party with their friends and family and an open bar and fancy outfits? Has everyone I know been going about this the wrong way?

    Personally, I’ve been to a couple of weddings where I didn’t bring a gift (I was a poor student) and no one minded. I know a few people who have (unofficially, politely) requested cash instead of gifts, but that was mostly because they were poor twentysomethings who could barely afford the wedding and didn’t need a new toaster, and I’d be extremely surprised if any of them so much as broke even.

    Next time, Well, I suggest that you turn down the invitation. I doubt the other guests want to sit next to an angry misanthrope anyway.

  96. chava: Ipso facto, willingness to shake it in the grocery store=high probability that you’re mature enough to understand that life is not Srs Bizness.

    Ha. I think that may be the first time in my life someone has implied that I’m mature. I may have to frame this comment thread.

  97. Pleat-front khakis? Burn them.

    Amen. I wonder if I’d have gotten laid nearly as often in my single days if I hadn’t had the good sense to be an early adopter of plain-front khakis.

  98. Esti:

    I wish someone had let me know about this rule before I went to that awesome Big Bad Voodoo Daddy concert where my (male) date (voluntarily and enthusiastically) taught me to swing dance (which he was great at, and I looked intensely absurd while doing, and yet we both still had fun! ).I don’t think anyone there realized that “taking place at a country club” was just the long way of saying “club”.

    ♪♫ I’ll just think – about – my next drink …
    It’s you and me and the bottle makes three tonight
    It’s you and me and the bottle makes three tonight ♪♫

    *hums*

  99. Well: Don’t move to my town, because you would be absolutely miserable. Some days, you can’t turn around for bands. I’ve been to concerts in old theaters, on outdoor stages set up for block parties, some guy’s backyard, and a whole lot of bars.
    And it’s not all drunk twenty-somethings. I’ve met women and men old enough to be my parents at concerts, seen young parents with their kids at concerts, couples, college kids of all colors (lots of those, we have two public university campuses, five or six little liberal arts colleges and a fair amount of community colleges/tech schools.) hipsters, and broke-ass audiophiles.

    General: I’d also add that dating anyone who goes into a recovery program during the course of the relationship isn’t a good idea. The person who comes out at the end of the recovery program is not the same person who went into the program at all. Little sis found this out the hard way. Not to knock people who are in recovery programs, just a friendly warning.

    For the record, I don’t date, being unable to afford sexy undies, cute outfits and make-up. Also a good tip: assume any guy who says ‘I think girls look better without makeup’ is lying.

  100. Okay, I stopped reading at 81, so if the conversation has evolved since then, I’m sorry.

    To both Jill and Well… I tend to see weddings more like Jill (Love them! Love celebrating two people’s decision to commit publicly to each other and share the moment with those they love. This is coming from someone who has no desire to marry herself). And I’ve been to MANY weddings with no money for the couple and no gifts because I was a broke-ass grad student. My relationships with ALL of them remain intact. I believe they wanted me to be there to celebrate with them. I wish I could have given them something to contribute to their new life together, but am so very glad I got to be at their wedding regardless of my broke state, and was able to dance my ass off with them as part of the celebration of their commitment.

    Well… I’ve never understood why people take their personal preferences and generalize them as global truths. You don’t like dancing… but why does that make it ‘wrong’ for anyone over 21 who does like it? I really like it when people tell me “I don’t like xxx.” It helps me interact with them respectfully. I don’t like it when people say “I don’t like xxx, so you shouldn’t do it, either.” Because I might like different things than they do, and that doesn’t make my likes ‘wrong.’

    /derail. Dating advice… If you have strong religious preferences that would serve as a rule out for FUN during a date…? Best to be upfront at the get. Like sometimes gets along with like better, you know?

  101. This I find very amusing:-

    “Driving stick is sexy. Manage to hold her hand AND drive stick and the lady-boners will be poppin.”

    It gives men from Europe, Australia and New Zealand a real advantage over those from the US 😛

    While only 15% of new cars made in the US have manual transmissions well over 50% of new cars in these other locations have manual transmission.

  102. Andie
    Re: trousers
    Agree 100%! I hate the trousers-falling-down look! It’s suitable only for teenaged boys under 16 (if then). Why grown adults holding down a job think it’s a good look I’ll never know!

  103. llama: From what I understand, most guys from the United States don’t want to date women from the United States anyway. So why should they care about other guys from other countries and their sexy handling of a stick?

  104. When Don Henley said that “all she likes to do is dance,” he later appends that statement later in the song with “… and make romance.” Well… which is it, Don?

  105. llama:
    This I find very amusing:-

    “Driving stick is sexy. Manage to hold her hand AND drive stick and the lady-boners will be poppin.”

    It gives men from Europe, Australia and New Zealand a real advantage over those from the US 😛

    What I find amusing is that we’re assuming the guy is driving on hetero dates while we’re on a feminist website. Though I have to say, most guys I’ve taken out have been impressed when they realize I’m driving stick. 🙂

  106. EG: All I’ll say is I don’t know any actual adults that “go out dancing”. People in their early 20s, who haven’t shaken off college partying, perhaps. People in their 30s? Nope.

    Fashionably Evil: Vodka martini and gin and tonic, and not so much glare, as “find them to be completely ridiculous”.

    chava: Some combination thereof. I find it ludicrous to spend 30 grand on a party, and then ask for money. If you had to take out a loan for your party, perhaps you shouldn’t have had it. Further, like I said, the reason the guest lists are so inflated, and include relatives and friends people haven’t seen in a decade, tends to be “more guests = more gifts”. The fact that people expect others to dance is just added stupidity to the pile.

    littlem: I own one tie. I do not know it’s location. The same goes for a pair of black slacks. The one button-up tie-able shirt I own is balled up in the trunk of my car.

    I don’t dress up.

    Line-ish? Are you meaning like, line-dancing? Country-type stuff? I don’t know any of the things you’ve named.

    No offense intended at all, but it’s kind of an age-tell when your idea of a fun (or not) date is whether they want to go dancing.

    Brett K: If people can “barely afford” the wedding, then perhaps they should just get a notary, have a small informal gathering of friends afterwards, and save their money.

  107. I think we can all agree that Well… should never attend another wedding and the rest of us can snag his share of free booze from the bar and dance like fools. We might even bring presents!

  108. fizz: Fine by me. Like I’ve said, I’ve only attended two in my life. I don’t intend to start accepting the invitations now.

    Also, semi-flat beer and watered down drinks from a reception bar aren’t my idea of a great time. Nor is watching people flail around like there’s something deeply wrong with them, to the couple’s favorite embarrassing 80’s hits.

  109. Well. . .: No offense intended at all, but it’s kind of an age-tell when your idea of a fun (or not) date is whether they want to go dancing.

    I love how intentionally obtuse you are choosing to be given that women of all ages are telling you RIGHT NOW that they enjoy dancing on dates.

  110. Whoa, dude. My parents took up ballroom dancing a few years ago – ya know once the kids were out of the house and all – I gotta tell ’em to STOP. They’re OLD they shouldn’t be doin’ the dancin’! As Well… put it to very succintly,

    “No offense intended at all, but it’s kind of an age-tell when your idea of a fun (or not) date is whether they want to go dancing.”

    Ppl will look past the gray hairs, see them dancing and think they’re young’uns! Oh, the horror.

  111. All I’ll say is I don’t know any actual adults that “go out dancing”. People in their early 20s, who haven’t shaken off college partying, perhaps. People in their 30s? Nope

    Of course you don’t know any adults who like to go out dancing! Why would people who like to go out dancing and enjoy themselves and are old enough to be selective about whom they spend time with want to hang out with you?

    It is, however, reassuring to hear that you’ve never met my father. Or several of my friends. And are completely unaware of a number of subcultures.

  112. Nor is watching people flail around like there’s something deeply wrong with them, to the couple’s favorite embarrassing 80′s hits.

    Oh, the horror of other people enjoying themselves in a way that is not aesthetically pleasing to Well…! Won’t somebody think of Well…!

  113. Politicalguineapig: For the record, I don’t date, being unable to afford sexy undies, cute outfits and make-up. Also a good tip: assume any guy who says ‘I think girls look better without makeup’ is lying.

    My wife has worn makeup thrice since we married some 24 years ago. I can assure you with that little practice in applying the stuff she looks a lot better without it than she does if she tries to put it on herself.

  114. For the record, I don’t date, being unable to afford sexy undies, cute outfits and make-up. Also a good tip: assume any guy who says ‘I think girls look better without makeup’ is lying.

    For the record, I don’t think any of those things are prerequisites for dating. Also, a guy who say things like “I think girls look better without makeup,” probably doesn’t know the difference between light makeup and no makeup. (Also: dump him for his inability to distinguish between girls and women.)

    llama: From what I understand, most guys from the United States don’t want to date women from the United States anyway. So why should they care about other guys from other countries and their sexy handling of a stick?

    What? Only about a third of all Americans even have a passport. Also, fewer than 10% of the cars sold in the US now are stick shift, so people are generally impressed when they find out you can drive one.

  115. Jill:
    For the record, I don’t really care if a dude doesn’t like to dance. I like to dance, but if you don’t want to, that’s ok! I will dance with my friends, you talk to your friends, I will get hungry so we will get tacos and then we will go home together at the end of the night and that’s great. Zero complaints!

    What I will not tolerate is a dude who refuses to enter any space where there is dancing, and who thinks anyone who does is “immature.” Which means no shows (or at least no upbeat shows, or rap shows, or shows of most of the bands I like), no bars with dance spaces (and there are a lot of those in New York), no weddings, no parties. That sucks. That dude sucks. That is the most boring dude I have heard of.

  116. I’m not quite sure I’m getting Well’s point. Is s/he saying s/he doesn’t like dancing? Just want to be positive I’m not missing something here.

  117. Sera: They’re OLD they shouldn’t be doin’ the dancin’!

    It’s pretty tacky that they’re “clubbin'” at their age. Also, according to Well, my understanding is that you must go to college in order to club/ballroom dance as it is a thing the young’ns do during college. Are your parents currently in college? I’m not sure what the rules are for this gray area.

  118. Sera: I wouldn’t really consider your parents to be dating. I would assume that they’re married. It’s not really “dating” at that point, is it?

    I stand by my point. All the people I tend to encounter who find dancing/clubs/going out drinking to said clubs/dancing/etcetera to be the utmost of entertainment, tend to be early-to-mid 20s. I don’t see too many people who are, say, 35, going out to “the club”. Well, I’m sure some do, and are likely regarded by the clientele as pathetic.

    EG: It’s the fact that it’s embarrassing to watch people do embarrassing things. You feel ashamed FOR them. Like when someone does something completely embarrassing in a movie, people viewing will often exhibit an embarrassed reaction in proxy.

    It’s not as though I can just not notice someone is making a complete and utter fool of themselves.

    That’s what people dancing look like. Fools. They don’t look like “amg fun party people”. They look ridiculous. Perhaps it’s the alcohol making them not realize how stupid they look, I don’t know.

    Alcohol hasn’t really ever been responsible for acts of good judgment, so, it’s likely that.

  119. Well: You’ve made your point. We get it. You don’t like dancing, weddings, parties or your sister. But you see, that is an OPINION. Kindly stop arguing as though it were fact and let the rest of us have our dating thread, yeah? Thanks.

  120. Well… Is pretty clearly the Oscar the grouch of feministe street. If we want him to be nice , someone is going to have to lose a rubber ducky.

  121. Srsly. Although I’m pretty sure my mom would look awesome in glitter and fishnets, and my dad has a hankerin’ to finish that Econ degree he started eons ago…

    Then they’d be allowed to foxtrot, right, Well…?

  122. elizabeth: And I’ve been to MANY weddings with no money for the couple and no gifts because I was a broke-ass grad student. My relationships with ALL of them remain intact. I believe they wanted me to be there to celebrate with them.

    Yes. Though my mother drilled it into me that I should never arrive anywhere I’ve been invited empty-handed, so I’ve done small things I could afford, even if that amounted to making jam from wild blackberries I’d picked on the side of the road and put in a re-used jar, because the only thing I had to buy was some sugar and paraffin, or blackberry vinegar made with the same wild berries, a recycled bottle, and white vinegar. Or even just a card. It shows that you’ve put some thought and effort into the gift, which acknowledges the time and trouble the hosts have gone to in order to entertain you.

  123. I’m right smack dab in my mid-twenties and have only just gotten truly comfy dancing like a maniac in public. I’ll probably continue doing it now until I die, because there’s something liberating about not caring if I’m embarrassing people like Well… by bopping around. In fact, thats my dating advice: own what you love.

    My boyfriend of 8 years and I have finally exposed our shameful secrets to one another – and they turned out to be mostly the same shameful things! Now we sing Ke$ha songs at the top of our lungs, watch bad television shows on purpose, and flail in our kitchen to whatever music is on.

    Being confident in what you like, even if it isn’t “high quality”, is a turn on. Doing things you aren’t great at but take pleasure in is hot. Having interests that you’re passionate about is incredibly cool. I’m not saying detail your latest D&D campaign while on a date if your date isn’t into D&D, but I am saying that the person for you will think your obscure knowledge of mythical creatures as relating to something or other is a perk and not a detriment. In other words, live your life and (don’t) fuck the people who get embarrassed for you when you’re out there doing the things that bring you genuine pleasure.

  124. Alex: I’m sure that would have more impact if I had any idea what you were talking about. Care to elucidate?

  125. Damn.

    Reading Jill’s post and everyone’s comments made me realize what a stunning bore I am. Almost without exception, my nights out (when on R&R) entail getting trashed in predictable places, with predictable liquors, and loudly telling publicly inappropriate stories with my equally trashed war buddies.

    This must change!

    Any suggestions for someone who wants to dance but has, since the age of 12, been utterly terrified of her lack of physical coordination and sense of rhythm?

  126. Politicalguineapig: Well: Don’t move to my town, because you would be absolutely miserable. Some days, you can’t turn around for bands. I’ve been to concerts in old theaters, on outdoor stages set up for block parties, some guy’s backyard, and a whole lot of bars.And it’s not all drunk twenty-somethings. I’ve met women and men old enough to be my parents at concerts, seen young parents with their kids at concerts, couples, college kids of all colors (lots of those, we have two public university campuses, five or six little liberal arts colleges and a fair amount of community colleges/tech schools.) hipsters, and broke-ass audiophiles.

    What town do you live in?? That sounds awesome!

  127. It’s not as though I can just not notice someone is making a complete and utter fool of themselves.

    That’s what people dancing look like. Fools. They don’t look like “amg fun party people”. They look ridiculous. Perhaps it’s the alcohol making them not realize how stupid they look, I don’t know.

    Ah, just as you don’t understand celebrations, you also don’t understand the point of dancing. People do not dance in order to please you visually (unless you’re at the ballet or something); people do not dance in order to look dignified; people dance because they enjoy the experience and, most often, do not actually care about how they look.

    Since you brought up age markers, it’s my experience that almost all people who don’t do things because they are concerned about looking like fools are adolescents. Once you get a bit of maturity under your belt, most people realize that it doesn’t really matter what you look like.

  128. Well. . .: Oh, well, I still stand by it. Especially moreso if one is over the age of 21. Pretty much anywhere past that, dancing is silly. For the record, I simply shift left-handed while holding the hand of a passenger.Not advised for everyone, but if your handedness is more balanced between the two, it’s easier to do.

    Urm…you can’t even get into most clubs *until* you’re 21. Soooo, I suppose the club is full of everyone on their 21st b’days, coz after that they’re past they’re prime.

  129. As a bi guy who does primarily have sex with men and date women, I’m curious why that should be a secret from my date, or something I let her know later?

    My bisexuality isn’t symmetrical, is that something I should be ashamed of? If I fall in love with a guy, sure, I’m open to having a relationship with him. But that doesn’t seem to be the way I’m wired so far.

    I get the humor in a lot of the list, but I don’t see why bisexual men are a target here. If a woman tells me right off the bat that she is interested in other women, but not in the same way as men (or vice versa), that’s an relevant part of her personality that I’d want to know.

  130. Any suggestions for someone who wants to dance but has, since the age of 12, been utterly terrified of her lack of physical coordination and sense of rhythm?

    get trashed in unpredictable places, with unpredictable liquors,while softly whispering privately inappropriate stories with an equally trashed peacenik

  131. llama: I assume your wife also makes her own dresses, and has never worked outside the home? Cause, seriously, any woman who tries to earn a living quickly learns how to apply makeup so it doesn’t look garish.
    Fashionably Evil: The whole point of dating is to figure out what attracts the S.O. of the moment, and cater to that. Being sloppy is not generally considered to be an attractive trait. Also, from what I’ve read on the internet, a submissive foreign bride is almost every American het male’s dream. As for the passport- ever heard of a mail-order bride?
    Transitionland: Learn to mosh 😀 It’s kind of exhilarating, in the same way skydiving is. And you don’t really need any rhythym.
    Anny: I live in some little flyover-ville known as the Twin Cities. Since Minneapolis and St Paul are so close, I’ve been to gigs in both cities. The music scene statewide is pretty lively too. We got rap, metal, surf, R&B, punk and rockn’roll, and I’m sure
    somewhere there’s a garage ska band waiting for their day in the sun. Admission costs vary depending on the venue/band, but there are free gigs around town, and a lot of the gigs are usually under $10. (Though I’d keep well away from the merch..)

  132. Veronica Schanoes: Since you brought up age markers, it’s my experience that almost all people who don’t do things because they are concerned about looking like fools are adolescents. Once you get a bit of maturity under your belt, most people realize that it doesn’t really matter what you look like.

    Lol, but truth.

  133. Regarding the dancing… I would love love love to go ballroom or swing dancing with my partner. However, he stands a full foot and a half taller then me, which is way too much of a height differential to make for good dancing. (We have tried it, it is very awkward, even if I am wearing the highest heels that I can still stand in.)

    Le sigh.

  134. Transitionland:
    Any suggestions for someone who wants to dance but has, since the age of 12, been utterly terrified of her lack of physical coordination and sense of rhythm?

    Back when I worried about looking like a fool in public, the easiest way to put me at ease was to dance like a nut with a friend. If you have a lack of physical coordination (or if, like me, you’re just awkward), having someone else there to mirror or react to is a big help. The same basic principle applies of you’re worried about a lack of rhythm.

    Alternatively, dance with or around someone worse than you are. The Boy fits into that category, and I’m usually too busy laughing at and with him to care much about what I look like.

  135. Veronica: Enjoying it doesn’t make them good at it. Doesn’t change that I think they look stupid. Again, I believe most of them wouldn’t engage in said behavior sober. That should say something.

    You seem to misunderstand. I do not dance because I think it is incredibly, completely stupid. Has nothing to do with being worried about how I’ll appear doing it.

  136. “*And if you’re me, you will not lay him right then because one-night stands scare you, so he’ll get your number and he’ll call and text you a dozen times and you’ll respond once before starting to ignore him because you’re embarrassed he met you in such a dilapidated state with your matted hair and probable body odor and oily t-zone, and you will also conclude that something is clearly wrong with him if he likes that sort of thing, and you’ll talk yourself out of going out with him by deciding that it will be extremely weird for you to show up to any potential date with clean hair and mascara on, because no matter what basic effort you make it will look like you are trying Extremely Hard next to the Garbage Pail Kids version of yourself that he initially met. And as you pet your cat and drink your wine and watch Bravo, you will wonder why you are single.”

    I’ve said this before when you’ve posted things like this but…

    Nooooooooooooooooo! This is men’s worst nightmare! It’s not that we don’t care about fashion, it’s that you practically can’t grow up heteronormative male without some kind of ability to assess what women really actually look like.

    It’s not that we’re indiscriminating. Maybe almost the opposite. It’s that the two states you’re describing — unusually dressed up and unusually dressed down isn’t as important as…

    dare I say it…

    Whether the real you is smart and funny and interested back and good at conversation. A little more dirty hair just isn’t that different from so much product in your hair as far as figuring out whether you’re fundamentally attractive. Even fundamentally physically attractive.

    The nightmare part is that while you might be joking some women really do blow us off when they liked us a lot, and really do hold a memory of their first superficial appearance against themselves.

    Look. I’ve read enough Phoebe Maltz to get that women’s fashion and appearance has its own logic and grammar independent of men’s appreciation or incomprehension of it. I get that. But that’s not what we’re talking about — we’re talking about that stupid gendered beauty trap where women effectively oppress themselves for not conforming to some imagined maximum male standard when all but the most superficial and/or futzy men have only a baseline standard. I mean it’s like the equally stupid guy worthiness trap where a guy won’t ask out a thoroughly interested woman he’s also interested in if he’s between jobs or if he doesn’t have a nice enough car or something.

    Heteronormativity’s hard enough. We shouldn’t preemptively make it harder!

    Anyway, I’ll just repeat that for the kind of man you’re most likely to want to date, the idea that you’d pass up a chance to date him even though you’re as interested in him as he is with you just because you were having a bad day, or even a bad month, is just a total nightmare!

    Don’t encourage this meme!

    figleaf

  137. Also, having gotten over my humorless gender policing, mmm, dancing!

    Not sure why it’s ok to dance, though, since after a good night of it everybody looks like the way you said you don’t like to look. Sweaty bodies! Disheveled or worn-away makeup! Workout fragrance! Soggy or even oily hair! (Unless you’ve hairsprayed the dickens out of it.) Clothes that have lost their starch to say the least! (Possibly not the period-stained granny panties, but anyway I’m always surprised that the European habit of wearing black undies for periods never catches on here anyway.)

    Also, hey, I’d go dancing with you, Cassandra, and Lori, and wing for you when you’re all cruising for skinny hipsters. And I’ll definitely hit a taco truck with anyone who strikes out on the hipster front.

    figleaf

  138. figleaf,

    yeah. Well said. I suppose it’s really hard to understand for girls/women that we (usually) really do possess the ability to mentally assess/imagine what she would look like without all the stuff on… I mean, I do find red lipstick appealing, but only if I’d like the lips without anything on.

  139. Figleaf: As I understand it, the whole point of makeup is to look like someone you’re not. Me? I’m not pretty at all. I look okay with makeup, but I’m still a long, long way from pretty. And even on my dressiest days, I still wonder what a dude is thinking if he acts like he’s interested in me. Usually, I give him the mental stink-eye ’cause he’s probably a liar or a predator.

  140. In my opinion- which might not reflect reality- white guys who are eying up fat women are probably fetishists, predators, or really nearsighted. I mention white guys, cause Hispanic het men and African American men don’t tend to be raised with the idea that the ideal woman could be Olive Oyl or Kate Moss’s body double.

  141. @ figleaf – Yup. Actually, my thinking is more that if a man finds me attractive when in my own estimation I’m not looking my best, then my best will surely be a delightful surprise for him. So my meeting him initially when I wasn’t looking great is actually a plus, in a way.

    Also, yeah, I’m assuming that he’s mentally stripping me naked and imagining me post-shower with wet hair and no makeup anyway.

  142. Well, nobody cares if you personally enjoy dancing. What is the point of your comments? People are objecting to your buzz-killing attitude and imagined superiority to the people who enjoy dancing. What possessed you to think that your distaste for dancing was at all interesting to the strangers at Feministe? Could you be that self-absorbed?

    Anyway.

    Bi Dude:
    As a bi guy who does primarily have sex with men and date women, I’m curious why that should be a secret from my date, or something I let her know later?

    My bisexuality isn’t symmetrical, is that something I should be ashamed of? If I fall in love with a guy, sure, I’m open to having a relationship with him. But that doesn’t seem to be the way I’m wired so far.

    I get the humor in a lot of the list, but I don’t see why bisexual men are a target here. If a woman tells me right off the bat that she is interested in other women, but not in the same way as men (or vice versa), that’s an relevant part of her personality that I’d want to know.

    I assume this is the part you’re talking about: ‘It’s ok to mention that you also date dudes, but hold off on the part about how you primarily enjoy sex with men and only date women because you want to get married and have babies.’

    The money line is ‘only date women because you want to get married and have babies.’ Conversations like that would make it apparent that you (not you specifically, but in general) are eyeing your date as a potential baby machine and / or ticket into mainstream heteronormative approval, and not a full partner like you would with a man. It’s insulting and off-putting. I think Jill was pretty clear about bisexuality in general being a-OK.

  143. Bi Dude: As a bi guy who does primarily have sex with men and date women, I’m curious why that should be a secret from my date, or something I let her know later?

    Reading comprehension fail.

    It’s the whole “I really prefer men, but I’m looking to date women so I can have a vessel in which to grow my seed” aspect that’s creepy. Keep up!

    figleaf: (Possibly not the period-stained granny panties, but anyway I’m always surprised that the European habit of wearing black undies for periods never catches on here anyway.)

    This isn’t the thread for mansplaining periods; that’s a couple below this one.

    For fuck’s sake, do you really think American women haven’t figured out that black panties hide stains? Do you also fail to understand that periods often catch one unawares, or tampons leak? How condescending.

  144. all but the most superficial and/or futzy men have only a baseline standard.

    I wish I could believe this. But I’ve heard and read enough stories to know different. I’ve read things by a woman who came down sick when visiting her parents, and on the third day of the visit, put on some make-up–nothing major–and came down to breakfast, and her father said “Well, honey, you’re getting better! You’ve already color back in your cheeks,” and was stunned to learn that he couldn’t tell the difference between his daughter’s healthy complexion and some foundation and blusher. I’ve read things by a woman whose boyfriend had never seen her without make-up and was bitching about how long it took her to get ready in the morning. He said he preferred the way girls looked without make-up. So she said wait a minute, went into the bathroom, and washed her face. When she came out, there was a moment of silence before he started bitching at her for “false advertising.”

    I never bookmarked or wrote down what magazine or anything I read these in, so I can’t refer you to them, but they ring true to me.

    I suppose it’s really hard to understand for girls/women that we (usually) really do possess the ability to mentally assess/imagine what she would look like without all the stuff on… I mean, I do find red lipstick appealing, but only if I’d like the lips without anything on.

    OK, the fact that your example is of red lipstick indicates that you’re not really getting what most make-up is and/or does. Some make-up–the kind I prefer, actually–like bright/dark red lipstick, or black liquid eyeliner is very obviously about decorating one’s face. But most make-up, the kind that women who feel they shouldn’t go out without it on mean, the kind that women who get up early so that they can put on make-up before their man wakes up and sees them mean, is stuff like foundation, or concealer, or clear brow gel–stuff that evens out your skin tone, softens the dark circles under your eyes, generally airbrushes you. In my experience, most men aren’t aware that women are actually wearing make-up when they’re wearing that stuff, because by and large men just aren’t aware of what exactly the make-up industry trades on. It’s not saying “you’re ugly because your lips are not naturally fire-engine red.” It’s saying “Hey, your skin is kinda blotchy sometimes, did you know that? And there are some lines between your eyes–have you noticed them? And your eyebrows…you know, sometimes, when you’re not paying attention to them, the hairs go in different directions. You can look awfully…unkempt. But we can make you look like you, but the way you would look if you looked good naturally! Not that you don’t, of course, because girl power and all that. But you know, you could look better.”

    So you saying that sounds to me like a man saying that of course he can imagine what my hair would look like if I didn’t spend forty-five minutes conditioning it every time I got it wet, snip out fairy knots immediately, deep condition it once a week, and oil it once a week (I don’t wear much make-up, but I do tend to my hair). I highly doubt it, because he doesn’t have a proper baseline. I can look at a woman on the street who has hair similar to mine but doesn’t know how to or chooses not to take care of it with as much effort and recognize that we have the same hair. But how would he know?

    I’m always surprised that the European habit of wearing black undies for periods never catches on here anyway.

    I can’t imagine why I’d wear any other color.

    What possessed you to think that your distaste for dancing was at all interesting to the strangers at Feministe? Could you be that self-absorbed?

    Igglanova, this is somebody who thinks that all things that displease him are objectively bad. So I’m gonna lay ten bucks on “yes,” as the answer to your second question.

  145. Well. . .: First, um, If she’s dancing, get up and dance with her, for when a woman dances, she wants to dance.That’s sort of circular, isn’t it? “If she is dancing, she wants to dance”. Well, of course she does, or else she wouldn’t be dancing.However, seriously, don’t ask men to dance. We hate it, we feel intensely absurd, we look intensely absurd, and it’s going to make us feel awkward and uncomfortable the rest of the night.

    Speak for yourself. I’ve dated a lot of men who LIKED dancing. You /= all men. Thankfully.

  146. Whenever I find myself in a public setting where I have an opportunity to dance, I usually talk myself out of being scared by reminding myself that once this moment is gone it’s gone. I can skip the dancing and miss out on one memory I can go for it, shake it, look silly, have a great time, show the room that a fatty can be confident enough to dance in public, and it really doesn’t matter if I look silly because I am having fun and everyone can see that. My boyfriend hasn’t always been as enthusiastic about dancing as I am, but last June we both busted a move in front of a rather large crowd at Spokane Pride Festival. Dancing to Ke$ha, no less! You don’t know silliness until you have danced to the music of someone with a dollar sign in their name.

  147. Kara:
    Regarding the dancing… I would love love love to go ballroom or swing dancing with my partner.However, he stands a full foot and a half taller then me, which is way too much of a height differential to make for good dancing.(We have tried it, it is very awkward, even if I am wearing the highest heels that I can still stand in.)

    Le sigh.

    I took some ballroom lessons from a male pro who was at least five inches shorter than me, without me in heels (and since I found it easier to dance in heels, I wore them in class). He always picked me to demonstrate proper arm positioning because you had to put the free hand at the shorter partner’s eye level, which meant he got to do the visual joke of moving the hands from my eye level to his.

    Surprisingly enough, this height difference did not wind up being awkward, mostly because he knew what he was doing and I was surprisingly good at following a confident partner’s lead (vs. trying to lead when I was with someone who was also learning and wasn’t as good as I was). It would seem like it would be easier with the female partner being shorter.

  148. @zuzu: What. Ever. I’ve done a ton of laundry with and for a ton of roommates and partners over the decades but except for a couple of German roommates I just don’t remember washing that many pairs of black underwear. Maybe it’s a hippie vs. non-hippie thing?

    @CassandraSays: I could be wrong but I think instead of figurative undressing it’s more like averaging the way people look in different outfits, hairstyles, and stuff like that. Not to say we never do that mental undressing thing. That happens too but I’m talking about just sort of identifying facial and physical “landmarks” as well as voice and mannerisms that don’t change.

    @Politicalguineapig: I’m not sure what to say. Except that I remember basically declining to flirt when I was bottom-out-of-sight employed because I “knew” no woman could possibly be interested in a part-time dishwasher in an Olive Garden style chain restaurant. To borrow from Zuzu, I think it’s kind of condescending to assume one is so undesirable in one’s own opinion that one actively interprets other people’s interest as mocking or malicious.

    figleaf

    figleaf

  149. figleaf: @zuzu: What. Ever. I’ve done a ton of laundry with and for a ton of roommates and partners over the decades but except for a couple of German roommates I just don’t remember washing that many pairs of black underwear. Maybe it’s a hippie vs. non-hippie thing?

    So, basically, you base your knowledge of what “European” women do on two Germans who wore black underwear. And from this you extrapolate a “practice” that you deem that American women just gosh darn it don’t know about. IOW, you’re mansplaining menstruation and women’s underwear. To women.

  150. Cause, seriously, any woman who tries to earn a living quickly learns how to apply makeup so it doesn’t look garish.

    Sadly, no. Also, happily no! Some women apply and apply and still end up garish, while other women go into careers where you can make a living sans makeup. Us makeup-less women still seem to have at least a decent concept of how makeup functions in the world even though we don’t wear it, though. And I don’t ever pretend to be an expert. …While the vast majority of men don’t seem to have a fucking clue how makeup works, and yet some still try to mansplain it. Mysterious. :p

  151. The way men, by and large, don’t understand what make-up is or how it works…it kind of goes hand in hand with the oft-stated “observation” that hey, you know, what? Women just seem to “naturally” be prettier than men.

    You know, naturally. Like, take the way women’s faces are, naturally. The way you naturally look if you naturally moisturize your face once or twice a day, use toner to prevent acne, use a facial scrub every few days to exfoliate, use a special cream for the skin around and under your eyes, and wear lip balm to bed at night, in preparation for naturally applying foundation and concealer and using gel and/or pencils to shape your eyebrows after plucking them and blending so that the shade of the foundation/concealer doesn’t create an obvious line around your jaw and smoothing just a touch of blusher on the apples of your cheeks and applying an ever so slightly tinted gloss to your lips. Natural. Like that. I don’t actually wear that kind of make-up (when I really feel like making an effort, I wear lipstick and mascara), but I have done it in the past, I know how to do it on a basic level, and I certainly know that it’s not natural.

    You know what women’s faces look like naturally? Take a look at men’s faces.

    And that’s not even touching on hair. I was visiting my family the other day and got into a conversation with my mother about hair products and styling techniques, and after a bit my grandfather expressed rather condescending amazement at how much thought and effort we put into this, I mean, hey, he didn’t think about his hair that much, and probably my stepfather didn’t either (my stepfather is a very aware feminist, and did not appreciate being alluded to in this way). I pointed out to him that perhaps he had noticed that women were, in our culture, generally expected to wear their hair longer than men were, and that making long hair look attractive and healthy demanded no little effort–did he just think we just grew it effortlessly out of our heads shiny and glossy and moisturized and untangled with good curl definition and no fairy knots or split ends?

    God, and that’s not even touching on clothing. I enjoy paying a certain amount of attention to my appearance, I would never deny that, but sometimes it is really brought home to me that if women gave only as much thought to our appearance as men did to theirs, we’d collectively be able to pool and use the freed-up intellectual power and energy to develop a time machine, discover a source of environmentally-sound infinitely-renewable energy, and create and perfect a whole new genre of literature. And that would be in only the first generation.

  152. Isn’t black already one of the most popular colours of underwear in NA? In my case it’s second only to the don’t-give-a-shit variety. 😛

  153. I judge whether or not someone will be good in bed by how they dance, not if they are a *good* dancer, but whether or not they are able to get out of their head and feel things.

  154. Figleaf: Let me explain a bit. From the age of eight, I believed that I wasn’t a girl, because I completely, totally and utterly failed to live up to the standards of girlhood. As an adult, I don’t resemble any of the beauty standards for white women- and I have no interest in living up to them. So it’s not that I believe I am undesirable, I just deviate from the standard enough that I should be off any random guy’s radar.
    Bagelsan: I assume you’re a few rungs up from the entry-level job hamster wheel. Trust me, as a young woman in the temp pool or as a public face of an instituition, I to wear make-up if I want to continue at the job.
    EG: I’m still young enough to get away without the full regime, but I remember taking five minutes before work to put on mascara and eyeshadow- and my dad couldn’t understand why it was neccesary.

  155. Casey:
    Women don’t like men who leave their iPhones or Blackberries on the table during dinner.

    sounds secretly married…

    The sweetest gesture my ex ever made toward me was turning off his cell phone whenever we were hanging out (for either hours or minutes).That didn’t stop the whole affair from ending really badly, but it was much appreciated and has been added to my Bonus Points list.

  156. Politicalguineapig,

    I am sorry that you feel that way. (Both about the makeup, and you being undateable.) I have managed to get away with no makeup for most of my life. But I lived on the left coast. Sometimes, when I date I put it on, but it is more for the social signalling aspect. I.e., I am trying to demonstrate heteroness and interestedness. Lately, I haven’t been except for fun. This includes me not covering the dark circles under my eyes.

    About the dating thing–you seem pretty fucking cool to me. And even if you are correct about your attractiveness, people don’t need to be within the socially-recognized realm of super hawt to be married. Or to have money for makeup or cute clothes or to go somewhere expensive, hell, even at my age I date students who do not expect that from me, and I’m in my 30’s. (They are grad students, to be clear.) But I get that dating is hard, believe me I do.

    -Izzy

  157. I wish someone had let me know about this rule before I went to that awesome Big Bad Voodoo Daddy concert …

    Thanks for the mention of Big Bad Voodoo Daddy! I didn’t even know I liked swing before I looked them up on Youtube.

  158. LOL are we seriously having another thread where Well Bigot is making it all about what a whiney sniveling bore he is? Dear god – get a damn life.

    So, basically, you base your knowledge of what “European” women do on two Germans who wore black underwear. And from this you extrapolate a “practice” that you deem that American women just gosh darn it don’t know about. IOW, you’re mansplaining menstruation and women’s underwear. To women.

    How else are we going to learn, zuzu, if random cisdude doesn’t tell us?

    As for what not to do on a date: I’ve got to loudly second the paying one. I have zero problem going dutch – in fact, I rather insist on that for a first date – but, not if you’re going to spring it on me. That’s a classic MRA tactic and it will say to me that you’re a classless ass who will not be darkening my doorstep again.

  159. That sentence should have read: Trust me, as a young woman in the temp pool or as a public face of an instituition, I have to wear make-up if I want to continue working.

  160. Hey, speak for yourself there. Some men enjoy dancing.
    Well. . .:
    First, um,

    If she’s dancing, get up and dance with her, for when a woman dances, she wants to dance.

    That’s sort of circular, isn’t it?“If she is dancing, she wants to dance”.Well, of course she does, or else she wouldn’t be dancing.

    However, seriously, don’t ask men to dance.We hate it, we feel intensely absurd, we look intensely absurd, and it’s going to make us feel awkward and uncomfortable the rest of the night.

    That said, really, the rest of your advice is highly subjective.

    How about the ever-so-generic, tried-and-true “be yourself, and if your date doesn’t like it?Too bad for them.”

  161. bellacoker: That’s like judging how good a painter someone will be by how good they are at Space Invaders.

    Rare Vos: You clearly have no idea what the word “bigot” means. Invest in a dictionary.

    How is it an “MRA tactic” to expect you to pay your half? I mean, isn’t it benevolent sexism to go around assuming women need men to pay for their dinners? So, it’s not really being “sprung on you”. Just assume you should pay your half, and everything is fine, no?

  162. Ismone: I’m not really interested in marriage, so I’m kinda glad I’m not ‘hawt.’ And I think you’re suggesting that guys aren’t looking for pretty, thin, well endowed girls- which is completely contrary to my experience.
    I am vaguely interested in dating, but I’m kinda lazy and can’t really be bothered to trim my interests or my body down to an acceptable level. As for makeup: well, as I pointed out, it’s a required part of life, at least at my age.

  163. Politicalguineapig:

    A good test for “Is what I’m saying wrong?” would be to re-imagine it, and see if you’d approve if a man said it about a woman.

    Would you like if a man said “Well, I can’t date, because in my experience, women are only looking for hot, muscular dudes with lots of money”?

    I think you’d be quite bothered, even if the person said it was their personal experience.

    Which means, check your statement, it’s sexist, and it’s gender stereotyping. Not cool.

  164. A good test for “Is what I’m saying wrong?” would be to re-imagine it, and see if you’d approve if a man said it about a woman.

    Sure. If you eliminate all cultural context from two statements, it’s amazing how easily you can compare them.

  165. Well: Once again, you are willfully misreading someone’s post. I never said ‘I can’t date” I said “I don’t choose to date and here’s why.” Also, I didn’t say ‘guys only like skinny girls,” I said ‘white guys like skinny girls because they’re told by the media that that’s who they should be dating.’ I could date if I wanted to. I don’t feel like putting in all that effort on something that may backfire spectacularly.

  166. igglanova:
    I see Well is mansplaining sexism to us now.How boring.

    Very clever, you use the word “mansplaining” with its obvious sexist connotation that a mans opinion is not valid because of his sex as a way of showing Well how real live sexism works.

    Given the sexism implicit in its use do you think men should try to reclaim the word “mansplaining”? Perhaps we might use “Let me mansplain that to you” as a way of indicating the following contained a male view point. Maybe it would be better to subvert the sexism implicit in current usage by inverting the meaning so that “It was mansplained to me” gives an indication of the high reliability of the source.

  167. Bagelsan: I assume you’re a few rungs up from the entry-level job hamster wheel. Trust me, as a young woman in the temp pool or as a public face of an instituition, I to wear make-up if I want to continue at the job.

    Actually I’m a grad student in the sciences. It’s not a 100% egalitarian field by any stretch of the imagination, and plenty of women do wear makeup, but those of us who don’t haven’t reported any lost opportunities because of it. That is the benefit of being in a certain type of job around a certain type of people — not everyone can get away with it, but it’s not like no one can either.

  168. Nope I was wrong Well was just mansplaining! For now I fully embrace current usage.

    If it helps you, just assume that Well… is always mansplaining and you’ll be right about 99% of the time. That dude is very eager in his dudely wisdom to tell women what women are like. :p

  169. Jesus christ, llama, you seem to be trying really hard to get this feminism thing but please do a little reading around the community before you start telling feminists that their terms are wrong and sexist against men. I’ll even get annoying and say flat out that your comment blasting the word ‘mansplaining’ is mansplaining in itself, given that you immediately sought to correct me without even knowing what the term means or how it is used. Here is the post that coined the term. The money section is…

    Mansplaining isn’t just the act of explaining while male, of course; many men manage to explain things every day without in the least insulting their listeners. [Emphasis added]

    Mansplaining is when a dude tells you, a woman, how to do something you already know how to do, or how you are wrong about something you are actually right about, or miscellaneous and inaccurate “facts” about something you know a hell of a lot more about than he does.

    Bonus points if he is explaining how you are wrong about something being sexist!’

  170. igglanova: I’ll even get annoying and say flat out that your comment blasting the word ‘mansplaining’ is mansplaining in itself, given that you immediately sought to correct me without even knowing what the term means or how it is used.

    I did check the definition of the word before I posted my intentionally cheeky comment. I do understand the concept and can see it has valid uses.

    However the irony of the fact that there is no defense against any accusation of mansplanation without committing further acts of mansplaining was not lost on me (nor it seems on you). This seems a little unjust as it provides for a mechanism by which an accuser is proved right just by making such an accusation. Further the accuser can only be female because if a male was to call something mansplaining (even in good faith i.e., “Well opened his mouth it must be mansplaining”) then he would still be mansplaining. It was this that lead to my initial post, not that you called Well on his post.

    That said, perhaps it is useful for feminism to have a word like this as a demonstrator of the power of language to silence. It reminds me of the pejorative way that a man might say women are irrational, and do it often enough that it becomes (usually out of desperation) a self fulfilling prophesy (I am sure there are more apt examples of pejorative language that women must deal with everyday that work in a similar fashion).

    Thus I intentionally split my posts so that I could have a little jibe at the word whilst still affirming that Well was behaving like a dick and indeed committing overt acts of aggravated mansplanation.

    BTW Yes, I did purposely misrepresent the intention of your initial post just so that I could rail at the word a little.

  171. Sid: But they [pleat-fronted khakis] can be worn ironically.

    It’s hard to dance with an iron tied ’round yr waist.

    Though in my mind’s eye I see the guys in Stella doing just that.

  172. Politicalguineapig: llama: I assume your wife also makes her own dresses, and has never worked outside the home? Cause, seriously, any woman who tries to earn a living quickly learns how to apply makeup so it doesn’t look garish.
    fucking clue how makeup works, and yet some still try to mansplain it. Mysterious. :p

    Sorry for the delay in replying I didn’t realise my post had attracted any attention.

    My wife does not make her own dresses and she has almost always had paid employment outside the home.

    She is a salaried partner in a law firm. She has never worn makeup and in some ways I think that might have helped her to be taken more seriously by differentiating her from the female support staff.

    Most days she goes of to work wearing trousers and Birkenstocks.

    I get that this is atypical and for proof I only have to look at what is expected of the support staff in her workplace.

    Having said that my wife’s career has not and is not completely free of sex based discrimination.

  173. FFS, llama, you’re really resistant to getting the point. The term ‘mansplaining’ comes from an actual phenomenon of women experiencing constant subtle insults from men who automatically think they know better then you do. It’s not some stupid female thing we just made up because we resent men and don’t want them to speak up EVER. And you are doing it again by attempting to give us a ‘lesson’ in the power of language. Have you even read any feminist critique? Like, at all? Trust me, we have as solid a handle on language’s power as we can possibly get, and we don’t need further instruction from some random guy on the internet. Just stop assuming that you can educate feminists on concepts in which they are already veterans.

    llama: I did check the definition of the word before I posted my intentionally cheeky comment. I do understand the concept and can see it has valid uses.

    However the irony of the fact that there is no defense against any accusation of mansplanation without committing further acts of mansplaining was not lost on me (nor it seems on you). This seems a little unjust as it provides for a mechanism by which an accuser is proved right just by making such an accusation. Further the accuser can only be female because if a male was to call something mansplaining (even in good faith i.e., “Well opened his mouth it must be mansplaining”) then he would still be mansplaining. It was this that lead to my initial post, not that you called Well on his post.

    This comment leads me to believe that you really do have zero idea what mansplaining is or how it works. It is quite possible to respond to that accusation without committing further mansplaining, if indeed the accusation was false. You just have to demonstrate a lack of presumed authority, or the presence of actual expertise in the area you were attempting to educate / correct people about. There is no requirement for participants in this discussion to be female and it is bizarre that you would reach this conclusion.

    Also, your definition of ‘good faith’ is not common to other people. ‘Oh, he opened his mouth, he must be mansplaining’ is the whiny petulant response of a man who is trying to deny that there is a widespread phenomenon of presuming women stupid until proven otherwise.

  174. igglanova: Quit womansplaining.

    You can womansplain about it all you want, but the fact remains, everyone has seen “mansplaining” used to silence someone simply due to the opinion coming from a male. Even on topics where the male clearly knows more than you (on male experience/being male/things males observe) they’re still accused of “mansplaining” while they’re told they are wrong about their own experiences.

    So, all you’re doing here is womansplaining with the intent to silence.

  175. Are you still here? FYI: in order for something to be a fact, it has to actually be true. Nice try, though.

  176. @igglanova I apologise in advance for explaining stuff you already know, It is intended only to demonstrate my understanding of the material.

    igglanova: The term ‘mansplaining’ comes from an actual phenomenon of women experiencing constant subtle insults from men who automatically think they know better then you do.

    Agreed in full!

    Also the originator further elaborates at http://karenhealey.livejournal.com/781391.html Now correct me if I have misunderstood the further explanation provided as to why a gender neutral term would not be appropriate.

    I have taken it to mean that whilst all people are capable of such ass hattery as explaining stuff you already know and providing erroneous explanations with conviction etc, men frequently do it from a position of assumed privilege. It is this mechanism that the word is “mansplaining” is intended to describe and the reason why a gender neutral term is not as useful.

    igglanova: It is quite possible to respond to that accusation without committing further mansplaining

    In theory I agree. But I think the cultural context of the forums in which “mansplaining” is used makes it very unlikely. Can you provide me with a link to a forum where this has been achieved? Is there a case where the original accuser has retracted the accusation of “mansplaining”?

    igglanova: You just have to demonstrate a lack of presumed authority, or the presence of actual expertise in the area you were attempting to educate / correct people about.

    EG points out in post #205 of this thread cultural context is important. From http://www.feministe.us/blog/about-this-website/ and http://www.feministe.us/blog/comments/ I assumed that by posting on this website I had implicitly agreed that male privilege had no currency in the context of this online community. Further, I presumed that being a male along with my previously admitted ignorance on matters feminist would also be a negative in this context. I submit that this provides at least circumstantial evidence that I meet your first criteria.

    igglanova: There is no requirement for participants in this discussion to be female and it is bizarre that you would reach this conclusion.

    Maybe I have over thought this please correct me If I am wrong. My train of thought is thus:

    It seems to me that the strongest form of “mansplaining” is when a man presumes authority because he is male and proceeds to explain something that is uniquely female experience.

    If a male says “hey your mansplaining how could you possibly understand, that is a uniquely female experience” then he is making the assumption that most/some women will not agree with what the original poster has said (i.e., In a way he has decided he knows what a woman might think on the matter).

    igglanova: Also, your definition of ‘good faith’ is not common to other people. ‘Oh, he opened his mouth, he must be mansplaining’ is the whiny petulant response of a man who is trying to deny that there is a widespread phenomenon of presuming women stupid until proven otherwise.

    You have misread me slightly I said “Well opened his mouth…” I assume this is why you did not realise it was meant as an amusing nod to this post:

    Bagelsan: If it helps you, just assume that Well… is always mansplaining and you’ll be right about 99% of the time. That dude is very eager in his dudely wisdom to tell women what women are like. :p

    I do not deny that there is a widespread phenomena of assuming women stupid. Do you not think that a man with a working wife would not have come across this? Have you felt the absolute fury and the feeling of impudence that being a third party in that sort of situation brings?

    By in good faith I meant more where a man was holding forth on something he logically could never really understand because it was uniquely a female experience but the post by Bageslan had amused me somewhat because I had already experienced first hand some of Well’s assumed authority in another thread.

    igglanova: Trust me, we have as solid a handle on language’s power as we can possibly get, and we don’t need further instruction from some random guy on the internet.

    When I said

    llama: That said, perhaps it is useful for feminism to have a word like this as a demonstrator of the power of language to silence.

    It was a reflective thought. Having already railed at a word that I thought could be unfairly misused. I was thinking about the other side of the argument. I have heard women complain about this aspect of language to silence and understood it on an intellectual level, but this was the first time I had actually felt it for myself. So when I made the above comment it was just a thought on how useful the word could be in getting men to understand about this ability of language to silence. I said this because it had given me a much sharper understanding not because I thought feminists don’t understand this already.

    The use of “mansplaining” as a way of getting men to understand from experience about something that women already know about language was not part of the rationale presented by the woman that coined the expression. Thus I assumed it was just a happy coincidence that it could work in this way. I apologise if this is something that was already common knowledge and I have indeed “mansplained”.

    To conclude my thoughts so far on mansplaining are thus:

    1) It has very valid uses.

    2) I think it could be unfairly misused to silence.

    3) If it is unfairly used it will provide first hand experience of something that privileged men are unlikely to come across.

    So in my opinion points 1 and 3 are positives and point 2 is a negative.

    I would be very interested to know how far is this from your thoughts on the term “mansplaining”.

  177. In theory I agree. But I think the cultural context of the forums in which “mansplaining” is used makes it very unlikely. Can you provide me with a link to a forum where this has been achieved? Is there a case where the original accuser has retracted the accusation of “mansplaining”?

    I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone retract their own opinion about a mansplanation (’cause yanno, this is the internet and no one does that about anything :p) but I have personally argued about whether someone was mansplaining before. It has a definition, and actually you put it really well here:

    It seems to me that the strongest form of “mansplaining” is when a man presumes authority because he is male and proceeds to explain something that is uniquely female experience.

    So it’s certainly possible to argue (as a man or woman or whomever) that a particular explanation should not count as a mansplanation based on the definition of the term. Your anecdote about your wife, for example, doesn’t sound mansplainy to me ’cause you’re just talking about your individual experiences — if you started trying to tell people here exactly what life as a working woman is like, assuming that you had some amazing insight no woman could have thought of on her own, that would cross the line.

    A pretty classic mansplain example is the article (that I can’t find now…) where a woman describes how she had her own book carefully explained to her by a man not even in her field of work, because he assumed she — being a lady — couldn’t be familiar with it.

  178. PrettyAmiable: I just learned about Union Pool. Not to blow up a place you probs look for skinny hipsters. And tacos.

    I went on a first date to Union Pool and we danced our little asses off. So much fun. And a few months later my band played there and we made everyone dance. You can dance at any age. You can dance until you die!

  179. @Bageslan Thank you for respectfully engaging me on the subject.

    Bagelsan: I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone retract their own opinion about a mansplanation (’cause yanno, this is the internet and no one does that about anything :p)

    Yes, but by doing so they are not recognising that the other participants are real people with real feelings.

  180. llama: Why didn’t she spend some time making him feel stupid?

    Because she’s not as big as an asshole as him. Seriously, you’re victim blaming Solnit for being mansplained too?

  181. groggette: Because she’s not as big as an asshole as him. Seriously, you’re victim blaming Solnit for being mansplained too?

    So she was a victim of being mansplained to. Did I say she deserved to be mansplained to ? No, so how am I victim blaming her?

    I simply wanted to try to understand her motivations. Isn’t asking women the best way to find out what women think?

    Seriously, if that is the kind of response that men get for asking it is no wonder many of them just make it up to avoid the aggro.

  182. HAHAHA oh this is awesome, I’m now evidently responsible for mansplanations! I think I’ll add that to my resume.

    If you want to understand some particular person’s motivations, it is best to ask that particular person. Obviously that’s not really possible in this case, but for future reference, asking why someone didn’t respond in the way you personally feel was best when you weren’t there and don’t experience that situation as frequently as the person in question, is classic victim blaming.

    You weren’t trying to understand her motivations, you were essentially saying that she reacted wrong.

  183. groggette: HAHAHA oh this is awesome, I’m now evidently responsible for mansplanations! I think I’ll add that to my resume.

    Steady, I only said men might make stuff up I didn’t say they would then tell it to a woman. I think you have a way to go to earn this claim.

    groggette: You weren’t trying to understand her motivations, you were essentially saying that she reacted wrong.

    No, my question was motivated by the fact that I do not think many women on this forum would let any case of mansplaining slip by. So I was wondering why she acted differently?

    If you have read the article you will know she clearly outgunned him in the intellectual stakes. So she didn’t make the choice out of not knowing the outcome (because this guy would have been pwned) she made it for good reason. Why?

  184. llama: No, my question was motivated by the fact that I do not think many women on this forum would let any case of mansplaining slip by. So I was wondering why she acted differently? If you have read the article you will know she clearly outgunned him in the intellectual stakes. So she didn’t make the choice out of not knowing the outcome (because this guy would have been pwned) she made it for good reason. Why?

    Maybe she didn’t call out his mansplaining for the same reason I don’t yell at people who feel the need to walk ever so slowly down the middle of stairs – basic social convention. I don’t know about you, but the strident tones I use on the internet machine do not always work in social situations. Sometimes, I have to be nice! It’s a bummer, for sure.

    Life is a series of compromises, of weighing pros & cons. Do I detail to this guy I just met in a group of people how he just explained my own book to me, thereby potentially looking like the asshole? Or do I let this guy be an asshole and sit here, somewhat fuming, about the nature of mansplaining, and then write an article thereby calling that one guy out – and others like him – on a larger forum and with less of a chance that I am accused of acting out of emotionality?

    Was that her thought process? I don’t know! I am not her!

    But what concerns me is that you apparently couldn’t come up with a situation wherein a woman would allow a mansplanation to pass her by without critique. In the real world. Where she’s already being mansplained to. As if it always goes over so well. As if it would work. As if you can’t imagine how one of the people here who speak out about mansplaining here wouldn’t be so inclined to do it in the Real World at any time, damn the consequences.

    In other words, mansplaining happens. And sometimes, women just deal with it by smiling and nodding, because it isn’t worth the effort to fight it at that moment, in that environment, with that person. Maybe she was tired that day. Maybe she had already fought a mansplainer somewhere else that week. Maybe she didn’t want to get into the sociogendered issues of what just happened with the guy who wasn’t inclined to listen to her. Maybe she just didn’t want to, period, full stop. And that’s her perogative, just like writing up a description of the event in question after the fact was also her perogative.

  185. @petpluto. Thanks that was a really good explanation.

    petpluto: But what concerns me is that you apparently couldn’t come up with a situation wherein a woman would allow a mansplanation to pass her by without critique.

    I thought it better to ask than just dream up some reason.

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