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On maternal desire

I wanted to contribute more frequently during my stint here at Feministe and to talk a bit more about fat in particular but, well, life happened I’m afraid. Thank you to those who’ve read and commented on my pieces; I am very grateful for the opportunity to give my perspective.

I have identified as a feminist for about fifteen years but I’ve only really understood what that meant, to me, in the last three. Because of my relative privilege I am somewhat sheltered from the worst effects that kyriarchy can have — has — on families. But I became acutely aware even before my daughter was born that my convictions were going to be tested more than ever by the experience of motherhood.

As I wrote in Feminist Mothers, there are still many ways that becoming a mother is (generally) a socially sanctioned choice in the culture in which I live. And insofar as it is a choice (we know very well that not every parent chose to be a parent or chose the circumstances or timing!) it is generally sanctioned by feminists as well. We have the right to choose, right?

And yet, the desire to have children and to spend time with those children, the yearning for it, even if that means having one’s career or other markers of ‘freedom’ and ‘success’ eclipsed by child-rearing, still gets kind of a bad rap from some feminists. Or rather, perhaps it’s become a bit of an unmentionable. It’s not uncommon for high-profile feminists to characterise babies and children as little tyrants. Freedom-suckers, equality-trashers, self-actualisation deniers. And whether they intend it to or not, this often leads to a characterisation of middle and upper-class mothers, particularly those who choose to practise a form of attachment parenting, as selfishly indulgent, or tragically duped and downtrodden, or both.

This doesn’t come from everybody. Asserting that choice means that the owner of a uterus has the right to say yes as well as no to pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding is important to many, I know.

And yet.

I think sometimes this dismissive attitude towards certain types of parenting is just a slightly more genteel manifestation of a latent fear and loathing of mothers, of maternal bodies, of any woman who doesn’t conform to ‘what women want’ or appears to conform too closely to ‘what women want’. This is otherwise known as misogyny.

A while back a joke about Michelle Duggar circulated amongst some friends of mine, some of whom self-identified as feminists. It included the words ‘vagina’ and ‘clown car’. Add that to the ‘humour’ leveled at Nadya Suleman, and it becomes pretty clear that in my culture, women who willingly choose lots and lots of babies are treated as a heady blend of ridiculous and monstrous. A slur about clown car vaginas can hurt any person with a large family or multiples and, frankly, it’s awful. It doesn’t need to be said that it’s pretty anti-feminist. (I’m not endorsing the choices of Duggar and Suleman here, beyond saying that as a pro-choice feminist I believe their bodies are their own, their wombs are their own. Some critiques of the phenomena attached to these women may well be legitimate but there is no value in shifting critiques, even obliquely or accidentally, onto all women who have or desire to have a lot of children. And there’s definitely something wrong with humour that implies maternal bodies are gross.)

Does this treatment of women who are especially fecund belie attitudes to mothering and childbearing in general?

I have heard, more than once, young women describe themselves as ‘bad feminists’ for aspiring to motherhood. I don’t think this is only because of ingrained notions of feminism meaning a focus on career and financial independence (although feminism sometimes still means these things and that’s not always a bad thing.) I think it’s also because women who love babies are liable to be stereotyped as ditzy, unambitious or sentimental at best. Sometimes they are seen as emotionally voracious or, well, gross.

Perhaps part of the problem is a lack of articulation of what it is like to want children, and the ways in which this interacts with one’s feminism. Although my approach to motherhood is quite cerebral, my experience of maternal desire and ultimately maternity was very much in the body. The experience of childbirth was for me transformative and empowering but it is not easy to convey that convincingly without sinking into cliche. Breastfeeding my daughter taught me more about misogyny, feminism, community, consent and a million other things that I could never have imagined. It made me want to write poetry (and a blog) about milk! But how does one put the physicality of parenting up to the spotlight, without fueling terribly harmful essentialising narratives? How do you stand in awe of the experience of parenthood without teetering towards being a ‘bad feminist’? (You don’t pretend for a second that your experience is universal, is the short answer, I think.)

Perhaps what we need is more interrogation of these experiences in unexpected places. Parents — mostly mothers — are often accused of being boring. What is infuriating about that is that we are saddled with this label without regard to the societal forces which might make this so. Mothers are frequently left with all the extra work but little of the recognition and then reviled for even the slightest sign that we are living ‘vicariously’ through our kids. Additionally, parents and non-parents often peel off into cliques, partly because we have been herded into distinct consumer groups, and because we are encouraged to keep to discrete family groupings in a culture where individualism is prized. And online we can be confronted with twee marketing-laden speak (‘momversations’ — ew) which, frankly, puts me off too, in place of real dialogue between women who may or may not be mothers.

‘Boring’ is often shorthand for someone whose passions do not match one’s own. But when the day-to-day reality for many women is mothering, it makes sense that a passion for women’s rights is aided by an insight into parenthood.

I am hopeful that we will find new ways to negotiate the experiential divide between parents and those without children, especially in feminist spaces. I hope that ‘admitting’ to either a desire to mother or to be child free can be less loaded, less fraught, more free in all kinds of spaces. And I hope that we can come to more readily expect not only the right to choose, but the right to be actively and meaningfully supported in each instance.


76 thoughts on On maternal desire

  1. I can’t agree with you enough! I’m child free by choice, and I can’t tell you how many people think they have a say in that somehow. Then I’ll go out to eat with my friends and their kids and I see that it’s the same with every decision you could possibly come to about mothering. My best friend is vegetarian and so is her baby, I can’t tell you how many times people have tried to tell her that’s unsafe, despite the fact that the pediatrician says it’s perfectly okay and that the little one is healthy as can be! I have friends with big families, small families, and child-free families, but no matter what you choose, somebody seems to think it’s their choice, not yours, even complete strangers.

  2. —It’s not uncommon for high-profile feminists to characterise babies and children as little tyrants. Freedom-suckers, equality-trashers, self-actualisation deniers.—

    I think you are misconstruing the events. See, I’m one of those people who often refer to babies and children as tyrants, as freedom suckers, equality trashers, self-actualization deniers, rug rats, etc… I’m one of the people who often thinks poorly of the women who have hordes of children.

    But in the A follows B follows C….the above is not A. It’s really not even B.

    A is probably my grandmother, who made it clear my purpose in life was to have as many babies as possible, starting at age 18, therefore it was okay for my father to have stolen the college fund my grandfather left me as it was a waste of time and money to educate a girl.

    B is probably the co-worker who informed me that because I had never had a child (via natural, undrugged childbirth to be more specific), I was not a real woman. Or maybe it was the doctor who informed me when he noticed the engagement ring on my finger that there was no reason to continue my research into alternative forms of birth control since obviously, I’d be having children ASAP. Or maybe it’s the people from family members to complete strangers who just assumed that I would be absolutely thrilled to drop everything and play baby-sitter with no notice, because I obviously had nothing more fulfilling to do than watch their child. Maybe it was all the people who called me a child hater when I didn’t want their kid running around loose in my un-child-proofed workshop. Maybe it was the folks I thought were good friends who pulled the ‘if you reject my child you reject me’ when I declined to alter my plans to cater to their child. Maybe it’s having neighbors who, like the Duggars, are in the quiverfull movement and thus have very strict notions of a woman’s proper place: in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant. Maybe it’s all the people who expect me to be their ‘village’. Maybe it’s the anticipated nights out ruined by misbehavior in a restaurant and being snootily informed that it’s just what kids do and I should be more compassionate!

    Now I’m going to point something else out to you.

    I am a mom. I have a kid. Maybe it’s because I had him later in life, but I have an identity beyond soandso’s mother and can converse about topics that have nothing to do with my kid and I don’t mommyjack every conversation. Perhaps that’s why I’ve never been labeled as boring. I’ve never posted pictures of my kid’s dirty diaper up on facebook or made a production of hanging it out for all to get a good look when breastfeeding in public. Perhaps that’s why I’ve never been labeled as gross. I don’t loudly squeal at the sight of a newborn or insist on touching pregnant bellies or grab babies out of strollers and inform everyone present that ‘doesn’t this just make you want one’. Perhaps that’s why I’ve never been labeled as ditzy. I’ve never expected my co-workers to be glad to cover for me and shoulder my share of work because I wanted to leave early to attend some child related function. Perhaps that’s why I’ve never been labeled as unambitious. I remove my kid from public venues when the kid is acting like a little snot rather than expect strangers to smile indulgently. Maybe that’s why I’ve never been labeled as ridiculous. I don’t expect a village to materialize around me and shoulder the burden on the days I decide parenting the kid is too much effort. Maybe that’s why I’ve never been labeled as monstrous.

    Sure, it’s mean-spirited to call mothers gross, and over sentimental, and and ridiculous…unless, of course, that’s how they are acting. You are seeing a campaign against mothers. I’m seeing a backlash against how a lot of ‘mothers’ have been behaving.

    Case in point: A restaurant put up a sign stating: “Children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices at Taste of Heaven.” And the fallout was that a lot of mothers took that as a personal attack against them. Research this. Check out the self-centered and frankly rude behaviors the mothers admitted to and expected to have tolerated with a smile by the restaurant and other patrons.

  3. I don’t agree with your conclusions regarding feminists who are put off by women like Duggar and Suleiman. I think you are *only* looking at what happens below the waist–the production of many children*–and certainly terms like “clown car” are appalling. I used it myself, once, and was thoroughly trashed by my friends for it.

    While I dislike the idea of large families in this day and age for ecological reasons, any woman who thoughtfully chooses to have one child or several will not hear word one from me. I may not like large families, but that’s none of my business. The whole point of feminism is choice. If, without outside pressure, you choose to have multiple children, then I support you. Besides, I can hope it will lead to more fans for me.

    But. Go back for the long shot, and in Suleiman you see a woman who openly admitted that she had as many babies as she possibly could at one stroke in order to get a reality show. Had she really been into motherhood, why didn’t she attend more to the needs of the children she already had? Since she’s had the octuplets she has openly referred to her children as “monsters.” She didn’t make a feminist choice to be a mother. She made a publicity hound’s choice, and now that it has failed, she is bored with motherhood.

    Michelle Duggar’s case is different. Again, she is not making a feminist choice. She is making a religious one, one that her husband and pastor very strongly support, and a publicity one, one that brings cash to the family. She doesn’t mother her children–she doesn’t have time. The older children mother the younger ones on an assembly line basis. (Admittedly, this was done in earlier times, in large families, but there was also farm work to support the family to be done. The family supported itself on church donations before TV.) And she is destroying her own body to make the Guiness record books, or God’s record book, as near as I can tell. Each child is smaller and weaker, and she has a harder time. With each birth, her doctor tells her she must not have another. If she does not stop, she will kill herself and any child she carries. How is this a feminist choice, to bear children until your health is ruined and you risk death?

    I don’t think the revulsion of some of us for these two women is a revulsion for mothers. I am childless, but my two closest female friends, both feminists, one with a large family for these times, are devoted mothers. Unlike them, Duggar and Suleiman are not making the choice to have children because they have put serious thought into it, and having many children is something they believe they can do with psychological and educational benefit to themselves and to their families. For the former it is about religion and breaking records. For the latter it is about fame. The ones I hope have feminist choices are their kids.

  4. Tamora Pierce: For the former it is about religion and breaking records. For the latter it is about fame.

    One of the tricky things is that the mothers of many, many children we usually hear about are the ones who are in it for money and fame because that’s why they’re on television and widely accessible. I’ve seen at least one other 20+ mother who, while she participating in a single documentary, does not appear to be doing it for the publicity (she said that she just loved being pregnant and having kids). I also have family members who have had as many as 12 children, and they are certainly not well-known or going for celebrity. But I wonder about the backlash they still might experience for having had so many children, and whether some people would see a difference between them and Duggar and Suleiman.

    But I agree with your point that all the reasons those two women have for having had all their children are not necessarily ones to celebrate, even when respecting their right to make those choices.

    (P.S., because I can’t help the fangirly tangent and I don’t think I’ve had the chance to tell you this before, but your books defined a wonderful part of my adolescence – thank you.)

  5. I love your last paragraph. I wish more “feminists” realized that some cultures and races face significant stigma for having children. I also wish that feminism could accept that having a high powered career is not the goal for everyone, nor is it attainable for everyone. For some reason I see more support from some feminists groups for, say, lesbian couples adopting than for cis het women who choose to have babies. It’s getting old. Black women get shamed for having children still to this day.

  6. I think there is unexamined misogyny in some so-called feminist takes on motherhood or some of its implications, like breastfeeding. When Hanna Rosin’s piece came out in the Atlantic (the case against breastfeeding), the discussions around it took for granted the idea of “modesty” with respect to breastfeeding in public, the idea that women just didn’t get the opportunity to pump at work if they wanted to keep up with their career, and the idea that a husband seeing his wife pumping might not find her sexually attractive anymore. Instead of attacking this misogyny as reducing women’s choices, she (and others) attacked breastfeeding proponents (some of whom, of course, are also misogynistic–seeing women as some kind of vessel). Some of the pro-breastfeeding rhetoric should be questioned, I think. However, we shouldn’t take for granted the sexualization of breasts and body shame that’s behind the cultural resistance to breastfeeding and pumping, either.

    I guess it all reflects how far we have to go.

    I do find women who have no identity outside their husband and kids boring, but I generally found them boring before they were moms because they were solely oriented toward getting a husband and having children. I haven’t encountered many of these women, though (even among religious, stay at home types).

    Personally, I found a much more toxic level of sexism associated with pregnancy & motherhood than I had ever encountered before. Thanks for your thoughts on it.

  7. Jennifer: I think there is unexamined misogyny in some so-called feminist takes on motherhood or some of its implications, like breastfeeding. When Hanna Rosin’s piece came out in the Atlantic (the case against breastfeeding), the discussions around it took for granted the idea of “modesty” with respect to breastfeeding in public, the idea that women just didn’t get the opportunity to pump at work if they wanted to keep up with their career, and the idea that a husband seeing his wife pumping might not find her sexually attractive anymore. Instead of attacking this misogyny as reducing women’s choices, she (and others) attacked breastfeeding proponents (some of whom, of course, are also misogynistic–seeing women as some kind of vessel). Some of the pro-breastfeeding rhetoric should be questioned, I think. However, we shouldn’t take for granted the sexualization of breasts and body shame that’s behind the cultural resistance to breastfeeding and pumping, either.

    The problem with the feminist/anti-feminist labeling of either side is that women are negotiating these cultural obstacles while we sit an pontificate about them on the internet.

    The Hannah Rosin piece and the frou-frou around it is about white, middle-class anxieties. I’d argue that the piece itself isn’t even really *about* breastfeeding. It’s about the minefields of pressure and judgement that North American mothers (I can’t speak to non-USians here) are expected to navigate daily, whether the topic is breastfeeding, discipline, children in public places, body politics, whatever. The problem is laying the cultural values and body politic of Motherhood, capital-M, on every pregnant woman and mother without respect to our intersecting privileges and oppressions and how they indelibly affect Every. Single. Decision. And compromise. that we make during the process of parenting. Sometimes I read these screeds on parenting choices and wonder why so much attention is places on a sliver of the parenting experience.

    Regardless, I think that’s also what’s at the root of the OP is. I know my personal politics don’t always support my personal decisions or vice versa (and I suspect that for those whose personal decisions and political ideals are always in tandem that a relative about of economic and geographical privilege is in effect). As feminists who desire kids — or, as a Western woman, as a potential breeder in perpetuity — recognize these antithetical forces, whether explicitly or implicitly, and are trying to tease out our politics from our desires, and figure out what can be compromised and what cannot, and often in this process find ourselves on the defensive no matter what side we fall on.

  8. Florence: The problem with the feminist/anti-feminist labeling of either side is that women are negotiating these cultural obstacles while we sit an pontificate about them on the internet.

    Or, to get really cranky about it, all mothers need support period, and this division of groups like breast vs. formula feeders and cry-it-outers vs. non-cry-it-outers, whatever it is, is actively isolating and removing women who need support as mothers over relatively arbitrary parenting methods when it comes to the big picture.

    All mothers need support. Feminism has a problem recognizing this at all, and it’s especially frustrating to see feminists who focus on parenting and parenthood draw rigid lines around certain parenting methods and alienate mothers who make different choices. Online, this tends to happen in the midst of “natural parenting” tautology. Offline, your mileage may vary depending on what kinds of communities you travel in. Either way, it creates political and personal anxiety over an experience that shouldn’t be anxious, and where this anxiety looms like a cloud over mother and child alike. Why the hell do we nurture these ideological wars?

  9. “Why the hell do we nurture these ideological wars?”

    Because ideological wars are fun.

    On a serious note, I think that there is an overexaggerated tendency to have to examine individual decisions as part of a “greater narrative”. However, what greater feminist principle is there but of choice, and as an extension, living our lives the way that we want to?

  10. I feel that the revulsion towards mothers who have more than the ‘decorous’ number of children permitted is tied into the same fear and hatred that pops up around women eating ‘too much,’ existing in fat bodies, drinking to excess, even being over sexual.

    In other words, fear of the female body taking up too much space, suddenly ‘consuming’ everything, etc. When maternity exceeds the tight bounds the patriarchy places on it, it suddenly becomes terrifyingly monstrous and disgusting. Some nice ref’s on the phenomenon in culture: Kristeva on maternal abjection, or “Monstrous Imagination” (Huet).

    That isn’t to say that there aren’t reasons why certain mothers of large #s of children are, well, problematic.

    BUT having to add that disclaimer feels like a pointless and yet persistent disclaimer–like on a supposedly “FA” thread where the comments insistently point out “I support fat women…just as long as we keep in mind that some fat eating is disordered! Eleventy!”

  11. I don’t have much to add right now, other than THANK YOU for making a post about motherhood that is balanced, and not putting us all in two separate, opposing camps. Could this be the first time motherhood is talking about on feministe without a horrible commenting flame war? I certainly hope so.

  12. All mothers need support. Feminism has a problem recognizing this at all, and it’s especially frustrating to see feminists who focus on parenting and parenthood draw rigid lines around certain parenting methods and alienate mothers who make different choices.

    Not all choices are created equal.

    All women have the right to free speech. That should be a given. That doesn’t mean we can’t criticize women who use their free speech to promote agendas that harm women (e.g. Sarah Palin).

    Motherhood comes with a great deal of privilege. We can say that a woman has the right to make whatever choices she wishes with regard to motherhood, and that would be absolutely correct. Whether you want zero kids or nineteen is a matter for you and your family to decide.

    But choices don’t exist in a vacuum. A woman who chooses to devote herself to motherhood is necessarily choosing to embrace and support certain aspects of the patriarchal social structure. Your choice to embrace motherhood strengthens that social structure and makes it harder for your sisters who choose not to conform. It’s not ‘misogyny’ to critique that choice.

    (And that’s not even getting into the many reasons – ecological, social, and moral – why raising children (especially males) in the First World is a hurtful choice.)

    All mothers need support.

    Yes, they do. And they have an entire culture dedicated to worshiping them. Feminists don’t need to join in the paeans. Feminism, in fact, does far more good supporting the unprivileged choice not to have children than it does joining the crowd propping up breeder privilege.

  13. While I agree that mothers, in general, should receive more support and less policing, I disagree that we have to support them unconditionally, just because they’re mothers. Exhortations to support people unconditionally strike me as demands for people to turn their critical brains off. I don’t support bizarre or unhealthy choices as a matter of course, not even if a woman made them. (However, we might be talking past each other and using different definitions of ‘support’; of course the families that end up being produced will need financial, social, educational, etc. support from society if we want the kids to grow into healthy, functional adults.)

    As for the Duggars et al, there is obviously going to be a nasty layer of misogyny in the public opinion because seriously, when isn’t there? But that doesn’t mean that revulsion at their appallingly selfish agenda is sexist by default. The whole ‘quivering’ phenomenon consists of literally using motherhood as a weapon against anything progressive and decent, and I will not be fooled into passivity about it just because ‘motherhood’ and ‘choice’ are fast developing into some of feminism’s most sacred cows.

    …All this makes it sound like I vehemently disagree with your whole post, but I really don’t, I swear. I basically agree with you. It’s just that these were my sticking points.

  14. mad the swine: Feminism, in fact, does far more good supporting the unprivileged choice not to have children than it does joining the crowd propping up breeder privilege.

    Seriously, it would be awesome to be able to talk about feminism and parenting without a bunch of people showing up to tell us we’re all a bunch of privileged breeder gits. We should have a parents only thread sometime, just to see where that gets the discussion, if anywhere.

    Our mothering choices don’t exist in a vacuum, fucking duh. Do any of our choices? But hey, instead of focusing on THE VACUUM let’s demonize the individuals who make choices for their own literal sanity and survival. Children aren’t a lifestyle choice, and until feminism can recognize this at large the movement (and the mothers in it) is (are) fucked.

  15. mad the swine:
    Yes, they do.And they have an entire culture dedicated to worshiping them.Feminists don’t need to join in the paeans.Feminism, in fact, does far more good supporting the unprivileged choice not to have children than it does joining the crowd propping up breeder privilege.

    No. Just no. Absolutely not. Not ever okay to say words like “breeder privilege.”

  16. Mad the Swine, based on your statements, I think you’re an objectively bad human being and have a net negative influence on humanity.

  17. Something about this has been niggling at me all day. Perhaps it’s Tamora’s statement that “feminism is about choice.” (I promise you, Tamora, I don’t engage in feminist activism so that white, middle-class, US women can have 3+ kids.)

    Given the bloated levels of privilege given to US women and the mind-blowing quantities of resources each of us consume, we have a special obligation to reconsider our desire to have kids. We should ask ourselves who will benefit and who will be harmed by our choice to add more lives on top of the nearly 7 billion we already have.

    This doesn’t mean that I don’t want women to have all the support they need to raise their kids. The children of Michelle Duggar and Nadya Suleman should have as much access to food, health care, and education as any other kid does. However, why should a US woman’s children have access to a lifestyle that is bought and paid for by the oppression of other women’s children? When was the last time a child in the US died of diarrhea because they lacked access to clean water?

    Again, going back to the nonsense about feminism being about women choosing their choice, I don’t care what individual women do. All of my friends are pregnant right now, and I’m blissed out of my mind with excitement of holding so many babies. Feminism is (should be?) about changing society’s morals/values, not an individual person’s.

  18. …except this isn’t (just) about “white, middle class women” having more than three kids. It’s about WOC being able to have children without being demonized as drains on the system, on our tax dollars. It’s about marginalized populations and the history of forced sterilization in the US in the name of “controlling population levels.” It’s about the fact that reproduction is only encouraged for a small subset of women who conform to a specific set of rules.

    The choice to mother CAN be a radical one. To deny that is to erase a whole lot of oppressed voices.

    @ mad the swine–
    “And they have an entire culture dedicated to worshiping them. Feminists don’t need to join in the paeans. Feminism, in fact, does far more good supporting the unprivileged choice not to have children than it does joining the crowd propping up breeder privilege.”

    Did you miss the part where “mother worship” is just the madonna side of the madonna/whore paradox? Being “worshipped” has fuck-all to do with achieving personhood in the eyes of the patriarchy.

  19. “…except this isn’t (just) about “white, middle class women” having more than three kids. It’s about WOC being able to have children without being demonized as drains on the system, on our tax dollars.”

    Absolutely. But these conversations tend to ignore how women of color raise their kids so that we can talk about when it’s acceptable for white, middle class women to have quivers of kids. Again, using Tamora as an example, Nadya’s choice is inappropriate because she wanted to be famous. Michelle’s is equally inappropriate because she’s religious. But if a woman was able to step outside of her social surroundings and just decide without any influence from any outside source aside from her own brain, then having a quiver is okay.

    I guess I’m not sure what this conversation is about. Should feminists tar and feather women who have kids? No, never. Even if they had their kids just to get on a reality show. Should feminists support all women who want to create life? All?! I leaning towards no. This isn’t about their bodies, it’s about our earth/society.

    *I’d have a citation for you except I’m researching another paper and don’t want to get sidetracked

  20. chava:
    …except this isn’t (just) about “white, middle class women” having more than three kids. It’s about WOC being able to have children without being demonized as drains on the system, on our tax dollars.It’s aboutmarginalized populations and the history of forced sterilization in the US in the name of “controlling population levels.” It’s about the fact that reproduction is only encouraged for a small subset of women who conform to a specific set of rules.

    The choice to mother CAN be a radical one.To deny that is to erase a whole lot of oppressed voices.

    @ mad the swine–
    “And they have an entire culture dedicated to worshiping them. Feminists don’t need to join in the paeans. Feminism, in fact, does far more good supporting the unprivileged choice not to have children than it does joining the crowd propping up breeder privilege.”

    Did you miss the part where “mother worship” is just the madonna side of the madonna/whore paradox?Being “worshipped” has fuck-all to do with achieving personhood in the eyes of the patriarchy.

    Exactly.

    Don’t think for a second that babies and children don’t die as a result of poverty in developed countries. I am coming from a place of privilege, as I acknowledged, but just because white, relatively wealthy mothers may be the most visible does not mean that support is only needed for them.

    @ Tamora Pierce As I said in my post, I absolutely agree that there are critiques to be made of the phenomena surrounding Sulieman and Duggar. I also agree that ‘Quiverfull’ is rooted in patriarchy and doesn’t bear up to feminist critique. I do not think, though, that this equates to making it ok to vilify individual women for individual reproductive choices.

  21. The “don’t have children because in the developing world children are dying” argument always reminds me of the “eat what’s on your plate, children are starving,” argument, fwiw.

    But anyway–I strongly dislike the idea that we should be in the business of opining what kinds of maternity are “acceptable” and which aren’t, which kinds are “gross,” etc. Yes, you can always mock up a strawman of “but THIS kind of woman really, really shouldn’t reproduce.” That doesn’t negate the pervasive fears and bigotry around the maternal body.

    How about we begin from the assumption that mothers might deserve our support on a societal level, and (oh heavens!) then actually attempt to provide that support–BEFORE we start throwing up our objections to supporting the hypothetical woman-who-should-not-reproduce.

    Rodeo:
    “…except this isn’t (just) about “white, middle class women” having more than three kids. It’s about WOC being able to have children without being demonized as drains on the system, on our tax dollars.”

    Absolutely.But these conversations tend to ignore how women of color raise their kids so that we can talk about when it’s acceptable for white, middle class women to have quivers of kids.Again, using Tamora as an example, Nadya’s choice is inappropriate because she wanted to be famous.Michelle’s is equally inappropriate because she’s religious.But if a woman was able to step outside of her social surroundings and just decide without any influence from any outside source aside from her own brain, then having a quiver is okay.

    I guess I’m not sure what this conversation is about.Should feminists tar and feather women who have kids?No, never.Even if they had their kids just to get on a reality show.Should feminists support all women who want to create life?All?! I leaning towards no.This isn’t about their bodies, it’s about our earth/society.

    *I’d have a citation for you except I’m researching another paper and don’t want to get sidetracked

    1. “I strongly dislike the idea that we should be in the business of opining what kinds of maternity are “acceptable” and which aren’t”

      Yes, this. It bothers me that there is talk here of which reasons for choosing children are feminist and which are not. Women make all kinds of choices in their lives, some of which are not feminist. I wasn’t aware that one had to flash one’s feminist card before getting support in seeking rights and respect, as a woman, from feminists.

      The ‘children are a personal choice’ narrative is the one I most often see used as justification for not supporting mothers. But this is based on privilege denial as well as a failure o acknowledge maternal desire. It’s also a position which is ultimately harmful to children because it tends to see them as extensions of (property of) their parents rather than as human beings who are part of society.

  22. chava: How about we begin from the assumption that mothers might deserve our support on a societal level, and (oh heavens!) then actually attempt to provide that support–BEFORE we start throwing up our objections to supporting the hypothetical woman-who-should-not-reproduce.

    Word.

  23. As a recovering fundamentalist Christian (Tamora Pierce, I had to hide your books from my mother), I have an entirely different view on Michelle Duggar and the Quiverfull movement. Yes, the Quiverfull movement views children as a blessing–but they also view them as soldiers for God. It’s not really about the children. Take, for example, the health problems experienced by the latest Duggar baby. She nearly died due to complications but the Duggars insist they want more children. The children are secondary. It’s really about taking America back for Jesus one Christian baby at a time. So yes, I will criticize Michelle Duggar.

    I will also criticize Nadya Suleiman for using her fertility as a vehicle for fame. Again, the children are a secondary concern for this mother. The number of children aren’t really the issue, though I believe the overpopulation argument is valid. It’s the motivation. Yes, these women made choices, but their choices harmed their children. Choices that harm children are not worthy of my respect.

  24. So we all agree. Excellent! Now let’s work together to secure access to contraception and child care!

  25. This comment is not directed towards any single person or comment.

    I feel like, to an uncomfortable degree, mainstream feminism doesn’t want to touch kids with a ten-foot-pole, and feels a very righteous sense of entitlement to keeping them at that distance, but is more than willing to poke its head in to speculate on whether you’re a good parent or not, whether your kids would be better off with a different parent or not, whether motherhood has made you vapid and annoying or not, whether your kids would be better off if they’d never been born or not, whether you are too oppressed to give your kids a “proper” life or not, whether your kids are “spoiled” or “damaged” or going to grow up into terrible adults or not, whether that thing you did means you deserve to have your kids taken away or not, whether your kids’ behavior is appropriate or not, whether you should have more kids or not, whether any involvement with your kids is “too much of an imposition” or not, and so on. And yes, mothers will participate in the policing too (see upthread).

    What I see is largely a heavily privileged subset of feminists who police mothers, and largely a heavily privileged subset of mothers who back them up (either by agreeing with them or fueling feminists’ complaints with genuinely “over-entitled mommy” behaviors). But the majority of mothers – you know, mothers of color, mothers with disabilities, mothers from all over the world, mothers who are poor – are so lost in these discussions that you can have a radical mother of color from Egypt come to feminist blogs and be slammed by commenters who can’t imagine that she’s not a white, middle-class, pursed-lipped American mother. To the extent that they make fun of the “exotic” (Egyptian!) name of her kid or concoct that she took her kid to some kind of shady bar where strange men leered at her because she’s a Bad Mom and her stroller takes up too much space and she leaves her kid unattended to ransack your apartment and she! forced! you! to! babysit! because! she! wouldn’t! do! it! herself! BAD MOM!

    Because there’s seemingly no place for real mothers in all their diversity; just strawmothers who get propped up and pushed around to support or knock down ideological arguments. One is a Bad Mom, one is a What I’d Be Like If I Were a Mom, one is a Not Like Those Other Bad Moms, one is a In My Day Mom, one is a Hardworking Single Self-Sacrificing Mom, once is a Popping Out Kids For A Welfare Check Mom…and the focus of discussion is invariably those aforementioned “whether” questions.

    If I hosed all the racism and ableism and classism and heteronormativity and cissexism and Western centrism off typical feminist discussions of motherhood, I’m not sure there’d be anything left.

    What would happen if the focus of these mainstream discussions were instead – what does it mean to be a mom with a disability who other people want to sterilize, who wants to take her kid to the inaccessible playground, who isn’t seen as capable of child-rearing? What does it mean to be a mom of color or an undocumented mom whose kids are seen as “anchor babies”? What does it mean to be a poor mom whose kids are seen as projections of the mother’s own selfishness, for wanting kids she can’t give a middle-class life to? What does it mean to be an indigenous mom afraid of the repercussions of sharing her culture with her kids? What does it mean to be an East Asian mom who wants her kids to succeed but is villified as strict and cold? What does it mean to be a transgender mom who may not be viewed as a mom at all? What does it mean to be a queer or trans* mom whose gender or sexuality is viewed as a dangerous infection to their kids? What does it mean to be a poor mom from a impoverished nation where you have to choose between keeping your kid and keeping your kid alive? And so on, and so on, and so on.

    But no, instead let’s talk about fucking mothers at restaurants again, and how boring baby pictures on Facebook are. It’s like the mother is just a flashcard we hold up and the discussion is just a poll on what we approve of and what we disapprove of. Like approval/disapproval are the critical feminist actions, you know?

    Gah.

    1. @saurus I want to applaud. This was largely a personal post, and it was therefore informed by my privilege and my experiences. But I hope, that in opening up space to talk about maternal desire and other aspects of parenthood from one’s lived experience, that a diversity of voices and issues can be aired. And what you’ve written is something I wish I’d explained more regarding the ‘boring’ thing; discussions of parenting are only too ‘boring’ and not worthy of Real Feminist Talk if there is a large amount of stereotyping and erasure going on. It’s a way of belittling people as an excuse not to give a shit about their realities.

  26. Tamora Pierce:

    While I dislike the idea of large families in this day and age for ecological reasons, any woman who thoughtfully chooses to have one child or several will not hear word one from me.I may not like large families, but that’s none of my business.The whole point of feminism is choice.If, without outside pressure, you choose to have multiple children, then I support you.Besides, I can hope it will lead to more fans for me.

    The ones I hope have feminist choices are their kids.

    Spilt Milk, this post is refreshing (I say that as a non parent), even if my personal reactions to Ms. Sulieman and Mrs. Duggar are horror- I get what you’re saying.

    Ms. Pierce, I have to have a small fan moment that ties in with this piece. I love your books. I am also moving across the country at the moment and a day ago I was packing and my husband came upon my very dog eared, loved, read and re-read Alanna series that I had brought with me first to college and now I will take them to medical school. He asked me why I had lugged them around all these years in a little plastic box. I explained I was saving them for my daughter, if/when I ever had one. Those books got me through some really awful teenage years and I wanted to keep them for my kids. Thank you for writing Song of the Lioness and Protector of the Small series. Alanna was my hero when everyone else around me couldn’t help.

    Sorry for the derail.

  27. Okay, I probably should have posted more than one word. But I agree with chava and other folks, that Feminism shouldn’t be in the business of determining who is allowed to have kids. That’s just gross. And I hate hate HATE the pervasive “liberal” argument that religious women are ignorant and don’t know what we’re doing because we’re brainwashed.

    Not to defend the Quiverfull movement (I actually don’t know much about it), but I think there are better critiques that don’t actively harm women.

    saurus: Gah.

    Yeah, pretty much everything saurus said.

  28. It’s telling that you pull out the statement about Michelle to be offended by but haven’t defended Nadya.

  29. Rodeo: It’s telling that you pull out the statement about Michelle to be offended by but haven’t defended Nadya.

    Oh, don’t worry, I’m plenty offended by stuff that’s said about Nadya. But I do agree that it’s probably not great to have kids because you want to be famous. And I do agree that some religious motivations for having children are problematic and should be deconstructed. And, really, Michelle doesn’t need my defense, and I don’t really want to give it. But I think the way that Feminists talk about religious women is seriously problematic, and we’ve seen it a lot on this site recently.

  30. Undeniably, a women’s womb is solely her own to make decisions about including how many if any children she wants to carry. A free and just society would fully recognize that.

    But to play devil’s advocate, maybe once the child is born and separate from her body, we should no longer talk about her autonomy as including that little person. Perhaps we should try to not talk about motherhood as though its a license to posses and own the younger being (the same can be said of “fatherhood” or of the two combined “parents”).

    I think this is not only important for promoting youth rights, especially as that infant grows into a fully autonomous being, but at also reducing abuse against children.

    To use the Duggar family, they are able to keep having children and homeschooling them to believe in God, disbelieve global warming and evolution, believe women are subordinate to men, believe queer people are going to hell etc. because our society treats parenthood as a sacred right of ownership even at the expense of young autonomous people or the wellbeing of society as a whole.

  31. ugh. my previous comment is completely messed up, i don’t even know how that happened. it should just be deleted.

  32. Spilt Milk, I’m here via Bluemilk’s blog. I read your blog on occasion 🙂 and I’d caught a couple of the earlier posts in this series there last week too.

    I just wanted to bring up one other taboo in regards to feminism, mothering and maternal desire. It’s a small one compared to these other great conversations going on in the comments, it’s been a really good read, but I just have to bring it up because I so rarely see this point discussed.

    I have never felt so silenced about my feminist views as this time in which I’ve been in my late twenties, single, being a long-time feminist, AND daring to want a long-term partner and kids.

    If you are a single feminist, there is a script, in life and on the internet. You are supposed to be happily single and happily childless by choice and the only acceptable way out of this for a feminist is to magically, by accident, surprise! meet a great feminist partner. Completely without intention. Only then are you allowed to say you want kids. Because you’ve got a great partner and it’s acceptable to want kids when you’re got a great partner. (even if the great partner thing is an illusion.)

    If you dare to say actually, although you haven’t met him yet, you would like an adult relationship with someone and yes you’ve thought about it and you would like kids (because you’re a feminist, you think about your life and your choices and actions), you’re immediately not feminist and worse, you’re one of those baby-hungy single women who can’t live without a man so you just want the first man you can find to put a ring on your finger and knock you up. Rargh!

    I’m so fucking over it, getting judged on this (I’ve been judged on plenty of things but this one really bugs me, I suppose it hits close to home). Single men who admit they would like a wife and kids get fawned over, single women who admit they would like a husband and kids are desperate, needy and mad. I’m not desperate, needy and mad! I just don’t want a short-term, lead-no-where relationship, because I think about things and I know what I want.

    I guess the lesson here is we all get judged no matter what we want and are, hey? :sigh:

    1. @Hendo Thanks for raising that. I think you are right, and that’s one of the problems with relegating maternal desire to something only whispered about in ‘mummy’ spaces. There is also the question of infertility or other barriers to motherhood which can be hard for people to address publicly when there is more judgement than understanding floating around.

      I love this piece by Queen Emily about yearning for a child

  33. ‘It bothers me that there is talk here of which reasons for choosing children are feminist and which are not. Women make all kinds of choices in their lives, some of which are not feminist.’

    Feminists criticize other people’s choices all the time, as we should. It’s part of being a thinking person with opinions. Or are we not entitled to that? I guess having opinions is for mean ol boys; feminists should be passive happy little cheerleaders and not contaminate the discourse with things like scrutiny.

    1. @igglanova I didn’t mean to say that there is never room for critique. I meant that whatever the reasons for someone ending up a mother, support for those doing the work of mothering is vital and marginalizing mothers and children is not so great for feminism. I think it’d be great if we could interrogate cultural attitudes to mothering and the ways these can be rooted in kyriarchy rather than focusing on who is ‘deserving’ of support and why and who gets to decide this.

  34. igglanova: feminists should be passive happy little cheerleaders and not contaminate the discourse with things like scrutiny.

    Scrutiny implies critique and actual arguments against something. And when you’re scrutinizing something like a woman’s right to choose how many children to have/whether to have children, then you better have arguments better than “gross” or “she should know better” or “bad feminist! bad!” And those arguments should probably also take other aspects of kyriarchy into consideration. That’s all I’m sayin’.

  35. re: the “no identity outside of X” thing

    I have met some women whose lives seemed to revolve around their partner and/or their child/ren, and displayed very little personality of their own. I’ve also met some women who similarly had no identity outside of their job or their hobby, and they were equally boring (at least until they finally started to shine through a bit once we got to know each other better). This kind of repressed existence is problematic, but it’s not *because* of kids and partners – it’s because of an overarching kind of social dislocation where we are struggling to find meaning and identity in untenable, alienating ways (which affects men too – I’ve also met men who seemed to be nothing except for their job or hobby). The fact that it often manifests around partners and children for women and careers for men (at least traditionally) reflects patriarchal and sexist norms, but it’s not careers and kids that are the root of the problem.

    That being said, there’s also the case where some people just *like* their kids (or their job) more than I do, and therefore talk about them more than I am interested in hearing about. But that’s personal, not pathological. Otherwise I’d have to assume that every sports fan (seriously, sports?) has serious adjustment problems.

  36. I believe women should have the choice to have kids/not have kids/work/not work/breastfeed/not breastfeed/ raise them in (almost) any way they want–barring abuse of course. But those choices should be subject to scrutiny just like every other choice in life. Individual choices reinforce social norms and affect the larger community, plain and simple. I don’t like it when women take their husbands’ names and I try to persuade my friends not to. Why? Because it means there is greater pressure on me to take my husband’s name and that increases how often I get mail addressed to Mr. & Mrs His Name or am seen as insufficiently devoted to my husband. Similarly, I think a Republican friend has a harmful worldview, so I will actively argue with him about those views and will not support similar choices in the larger community (such as having a gun in the home.) Obviously, I don’t impugn them as people or their ability to make the best choice for them, but I definitely criticize their choices in the context of what it does to society.

    Having and raising children is a pretty fundamental human desire (not one all people have, but one that gets to the core for many people who do have the desire), so I don’t get people who say “having children is a choice,” as if that’s an excuse to not accommodate and support it. People who say having children is a choice can often be so moralizing and superior about it, as if it’s a choice on par with getting a second helping at the all-you-can-eat buffet, so no wonder you have a stomach ache.

    But at the same time, raising children is so critically important to society and engages so many members of society that I think everyone (rightly) feels the stakes are high if its done in the “wrong” way. Given that, people should have the right to critique the choices other people make in raising their children, especially if those people are in their social circle and have a large say in what the expectations are for parenting in that community.

    What’s really missing in a lot of the debateis the conception that mostly, if you love your kids, want the best for them, and can tend to their basic needs (food, safe, clean place to live, attention, kindness, same age playmates who are not meanies), they’ll be OK. Society acts like every choice parents make is going to do irreparable harm or turn kids into the next Einstein. In reality, kids will be who they are, and a lot of the worrying/mommy wars/angst surrounding childrearing is misplaced.

  37. Jadey: I’ve definitely had the experience where a parent thinks their kid is super awesome and I disagreed. I’ve also had the experience where I think a kid is doing just great, and the parent is like “she’s too slow/bad at math/unpopular/fat/talkative/quiet etc. etc. etc.” The latter makes me sad, the former just makes me mildly annoyed/confused.

  38. I have never felt so silenced about my feminist views as this time in which I’ve been in my late twenties, single, being a long-time feminist, AND daring to want a long-term partner and kids.

    Hendo, you’re not alone. I sometimes feel the same way.

  39. +1 for everything saurus said.

    Amarantha: What’s really missing in a lot of the debateis the conception that mostly, if you love your kids, want the best for them, and can tend to their basic needs (food, safe, clean place to live, attention, kindness, same age playmates who are not meanies), they’ll be OK. Society acts like every choice parents make is going to do irreparable harm or turn kids into the next Einstein. In reality, kids will be who they are, and a lot of the worrying/mommy wars/angst surrounding childrearing is misplaced.

    Word.

  40. So here’s a reason why I am bored and annoyed and frustrated at the idea that the best thing feminism can do for the 81% of women who are/have been/will be mothers is to try and figure out which motherhood styles are more or less feminism and why.

    This just stresses me the fuck out. I’m a single lesbian who really wants to have a passel of kids and I work a good job, making just around the median income. I am desperately stressed at how even having one child is going to fuck me up financially: Can I afford the process of donor conception? Will I be able to work right up into my due date so that I have the maximum allowed time off work to be with my baby? What will be more economically painful? Shaving off hours and taking a paycut or pouring more and more money into daycare?

    Meanwhile, my friend with the pile of adorable, brilliant little kids that I envy. But she struggles in a different way. She has a partner that works full time, but they still struggle financially. She also wants the domestic bliss that I want, but she’s being buried alive some days because she doesn’t have a strong enough support system to take some of the enormous, isolating weight of being a fulltime mother off her shoulders.

    Meanwhile again, I see my own mother, dealing still with her youngest daughter’s death. She doesn’t want to the circumstances of it, even though she knows that people, even people that don’t mean to, judge her to be a bad mother because she had a drug addicted child who committed suicide. She told me last night that she is tempted to write letters to Casey Anthony and Amy Whinehouse’s mothers, to “welcome” them to a terrible sisterhood.

    I bet a lot of posters have stories like these. And in all of them, you can hear people articulating needs and I think those are needs that in various ways feminist organizing can fill.

    But only if we start really centering mothers. Mothers are some of the most economically marginalized of women. The majority of women will be mothers someday. Nearly all feminists had mothers, who can, if only in their failure, show us more about how mothers need feminism. It’s absurd for feminism to not work harder to center the needs of mothers.

  41. Hendo, thanks for saying that! I experienced that as well. And in fact, wanting a family ended up being a really healthy thing for me in that I was forced to take a hard look at the type of people I was choosing to date and this ultimately led me to my husband/kid’s dad.

    And I personally believe that more kids being raised by feminists is a very good thing for the world!

  42. Michelle Duggar isn’t just religious, she is having as many children as she possibly can explicitly in order to outpopulate liberals, non-believers, adherents of non-Christian religions, and members of Christian sects which she finds too dissimilar to her own sect. Further, she advocates that this is her god-given role as a woman, that birth control is a moral wrong, and that all women should give birth until their uteruses fall out just like her.

    I agree with supporting mothers in general – but I do not support using children as weapons to dismantle all societal progress from the last century, nor do I support ideologies that consign women to endless childbearing in the same of God’s will.

  43. saurus:
    This comment is not directed towards any single person or comment.

    I feel like, to an uncomfortable degree, mainstream feminism doesn’t want to touch kids with a ten-foot-pole, and feels a very righteous sense of entitlement to keeping them at that distance, but is more than willing to poke its head in to speculate on whether you’re a good parent or not, whether your kids would be better off with a different parent or not, whether motherhood has made you vapid and annoying or not, whether your kids would be better off if they’d never been born or not, whether you are too oppressed to give your kids a “proper” life or not, whether your kids are “spoiled” or “damaged” or going to grow up into terrible adults or not, whether that thing you did means you deserve to have your kids taken away or not, whether your kids’ behavior is appropriate or not, whether you should have more kids or not, whether any involvement with your kids is “too much of an imposition” or not, and so on. And yes, mothers will participate in the policing too (see upthread).

    If I hosed all the racism and ableism and classism and heteronormativity and cissexism and Western centrism off typical feminist discussions of motherhood, I’m not sure there’d be anything left.
    But no, instead let’s talk about fucking mothers at restaurants again, and how boring baby pictures on Facebook are. It’s like the mother is just a flashcard we hold up and the discussion is just a poll on what we approve of and what we disapprove of. Like approval/disapproval are the critical feminist actions, you know?

    Gah.

    I totally agree.

    Perhaps it’s because those discussions take place in consumer type places–magazines, talk shows, books—but not in places of political power?

    Although on the positive side, there was a magazine front page recently on the “chore wars”—does that mean the “mommy wars” are over?

    It seems like finally some people have figured out that most mothers work and they care more about the partner they’re living with than some straw mom.

  44. saurus:
    This comment is not directed towards any single person or comment.

    I feel like, to an uncomfortable degree, mainstream feminism doesn’t want to touch kids with a ten-foot-pole, and feels a very righteous sense of entitlement to keeping them at that distance, but is more than willing to poke its head in to speculate on whether you’re a good parent or not, whether your kids would be better off with a different parent or not, whether motherhood has made you vapid and annoying or not, whether your kids would be better off if they’d never been born or not, whether you are too oppressed to give your kids a “proper” life or not, whether your kids are “spoiled” or “damaged” or going to grow up into terrible adults or not, whether that thing you did means you deserve to have your kids taken away or not, whether your kids’ behavior is appropriate or not, whether you should have more kids or not, whether any involvement with your kids is “too much of an imposition” or not, and so on. And yes, mothers will participate in the policing too (see upthread).

    What I see is largely a heavily privileged subset of feminists who police mothers, and largely a heavily privileged subset of mothers who back them up (either by agreeing with them or fueling feminists’ complaints with genuinely “over-entitled mommy” behaviors). But the majority of mothers – you know, mothers of color, mothers with disabilities, mothers from all over the world, mothers who are poor – are so lost in these discussions that you can have a radical mother of color from Egypt come to feminist blogs and be slammed by commenters who can’t imagine that she’s not a white, middle-class, pursed-lipped American mother. To the extent that they make fun of the “exotic” (Egyptian!) name of her kid or concoct that she took her kid to some kind of shady bar where strange men leered at her because she’s a Bad Mom and her stroller takes up too much space and she leaves her kid unattended to ransack your apartment and she! forced! you! to! babysit! because! she! wouldn’t! do! it! herself! BAD MOM!

    Because there’s seemingly no place for real mothers in all their diversity; just strawmothers who get propped up and pushed around to support or knock down ideological arguments. One is a Bad Mom, one is a What I’d Be Like If I Were a Mom, one is a Not Like Those Other Bad Moms, one is a In My Day Mom, one is a Hardworking Single Self-Sacrificing Mom, once is a Popping Out Kids For A Welfare Check Mom…and the focus of discussion is invariably those aforementioned “whether” questions.

    If I hosed all the racism and ableism and classism and heteronormativity and cissexism and Western centrism off typical feminist discussions of motherhood, I’m not sure there’d be anything left.

    What would happen if the focus of these mainstream discussions were instead – what does it mean to be a mom with a disability who other people want to sterilize, who wants to take her kid to the inaccessible playground, who isn’t seen as capable of child-rearing? What does it mean to be a mom of color or an undocumented mom whose kids are seen as “anchor babies”? What does it mean to be a poor mom whose kids are seen as projections of the mother’s own selfishness, for wanting kids she can’t give a middle-class life to? What does it mean to be an indigenous mom afraid of the repercussions of sharing her culture with her kids? What does it mean to be an East Asian mom who wants her kids to succeed but is villified as strict and cold? What does it mean to be a transgender mom who may not be viewed as a mom at all? What does it mean to be a queer or trans* mom whose gender or sexuality is viewed as a dangerous infection to their kids? What does it mean to be a poor mom from a impoverished nation where you have to choose between keeping your kid and keeping your kid alive? And so on, and so on, and so on.

    But no, instead let’s talk about fucking mothers at restaurants again, and how boring baby pictures on Facebook are. It’s like the mother is just a flashcard we hold up and the discussion is just a poll on what we approve of and what we disapprove of. Like approval/disapproval are the critical feminist actions, you know?

    Gah.

    Oh! Em! Gee!!! I love your comment! That is all.. 🙂

  45. As a feminist who isn’t interested in motherhood in the least, who at one point lashed out against motherhood (but I hope not against mothers), I’m coming from a place of oppression from the larger American culture I’m part of, the smaller Indian subculture I was born into, and from my family. Everyone in my family expects I should have/want a child and that there’s something wrong with me for not wanting one. Most coworkers feel the same.

    I can see that general trends in feminism might be overcompensating for this HAVE KIDS OR ELSE attitude in the rest of society, but I don’t see how that’s a problem because as far as I have experienced, it’s one of the few places that *does* question mothering-as-default, one of the few places where my choice doesn’t need to be explained, justified, and lectured.

    So yes, all women should have the right to make whatever choice they want whether it’s to have kids or not, but given our larger cultural context,I have a hard time feeling sympathetic for you when you have so much cultural and social support but still feel the need to turn around and tell women like me we should stop being so damn mean to you.

  46. As someone who also doesn’t plan to have children and gets the ‘what the hell is wrong with you!’ treatment…I think the problem is women making decisions that are gendered and embodied – that is, our society is totally not ok with women being human beings who make autonomous decisions. A woman without children is scary because she doesn’t adhere to the supposed biological purpose of women (to reproduce). A cis woman with children is scary because she has a body which has created and gestated life – a power women have that men don’t. Plus women’s bodies are kindof icky.

    It all seems like a big madonna/whore complex – damned if you have children (a madonna who has to conform to an impossible ideal to be treated with respect) or don’t (a whore whose promiscuity and decision-making ruins everything). No-one wins.

  47. I can honestly say I never had strong feelings about having kids, but now that I have one, man, do people want to talk to me about having more. I had a sufficiently scary delivery that I’m not sure I’m up for that again, but it’s really weird knowing that people are encouraging me because I’ve got the outward traits of the sort of person who “should be having lots of kids.” (Why yes, we are a white, heterosexual, TAB, well-educated couple who enjoys financial stability.) It’s an unsettling manifestation of privilege for me, and it makes me sad.

  48. ‘Scrutiny implies critique and actual arguments against something. And when you’re scrutinizing something like a woman’s right to choose how many children to have/whether to have children, then you better have arguments better than “gross” or “she should know better” or “bad feminist! bad!” And those arguments should probably also take other aspects of kyriarchy into consideration. That’s all I’m sayin’.’

    Well good, we don’t actually disagree. I’m not fighting for the right to shit on mothers or be a flaming asshole. I think we should word our talking points carefully so they aren’t foolishly broad. Instead of ‘quit criticizing mothers,’ ‘loosen up on the criticism’ or ‘look at what fathers are doing too, whether by presence in their families or yawning absence.’

  49. I look at it all like this: I may not be “for” what you do, but I completely believe in your right to do it.

    I may not be “for” having 20 kids, but I am completely for the woman’s right to do it. I may not be “for” having kids for fame/welfare checks/etc, but I completely believe in her right to do it.

    Similarly, I may not be “for” abortion, but I am completely for the woman’s right to do it. Add gay marriage. I’m not “for” gay marriage, but I’ll fight for the right to have one.

    So basically, just because I may not agree with someone’s decision, doesn’t mean that I think they shouldn’t have the right to MAKE that decision. Are we for HUMAN rights, or not?? Must we consistently miss the forest for the trees? Why do we bitch and moan about the decisions people make, just because we don’t like them? Let’s spend that energy fighting for their right to MAKE it in the first place – and then honor that right, remembering To Each Their Own. YES, let’s educate each other with our wealth of experiences and insights – but seriously, check the judgments at the door. It’s like giving a starving beggar ten bucks, and then getting pissed because the beggar spends it all on something other than food. You gave that beggar the power of choice – now step back and GET OUT OF THE WAY. That’s how each of us learns for ourselves, and THAT is what elicits change!! We can share our experiences and enable growth among us, or just get angry and resentful at everyone else’s experiences and continue to beat our heads against a wall.

    And SAURUS, if I could name a child after you, just for that post, I would. Thank you.

  50. Saurus I agree completely.

    Endless error all women don’t have society’s support as many other commenters have pointed out. Believe it or not, having children is a radical act for some women.

  51. EndlessError:
    I can see that general trends in feminism might be overcompensating for this HAVE KIDS OR ELSE attitude in the rest of society, but I don’t see how that’s a problem because as far as I have experienced, it’s one of the few places that *does* question
    mothering-as-default, one of the few places where my choice doesn’t need to be explained, justified, and lectured.

    So yes, all women should have the right to make whatever choice they want whether it’s to have kids or not, but given our larger cultural context,I have a hard time feeling sympathetic for you when you have so much cultural and social support but still feel the need to turn around and tell women like me we should stop being so damn mean to you.

    You know, I don’t question your lived experience of being judged and pressured into motherhood. It sucks, and it shouldn’t happen. Please don’t question my lived experience of a lack of ‘cultural and social support’ for mothering, and please don’t discount the damage that this does, particularly to marginalized people.

    You might not see how ‘this is a problem’ because it is not your problem – that seems like a logic and empathy fail, to me.

    I also think that your problem and mine are on the same continuum of oppression (devaluing of women’s stories and desires, lack of respect for the work women do, rigid gender roles, the myth of the perfect mother and family, essentialising of women’s bodies etc.)

    I keep wanting to ask: Why are some feminists so invested in maintaining a divide between those with kids and those without? Who does that ultimately serve? Hint: not women.

  52. Word. I understand the labor that has gone into carving out a (small!) space for women who do not wish to have children. But that space is not and should not be threatened by the support of women who do. This is not a zero-sum game.

    Spilt Milk:

    I also think that your problem and mine are on the same continuum of oppression (devaluing of women’s stories and desires, lack of respect for the work women do, rigid gender roles, the myth of the perfect mother and family, essentialising of women’s bodies etc.)

  53. …I have a hard time feeling sympathetic for you when you have so much cultural and social support but still feel the need to turn around and tell women like me we should stop being so damn mean to you.

    Only a small percentage of women actually have any meaningful cultural or social support (and someone cooing over a baby in a store is not support, for example – support is stuff that allows you to thrive. How many mothers out there are, realistically, thriving?) Out of those women, most are still judged and judged harshly – they may not have their autonomy and livelihood actively theatened by oppressive social systems, but they still get punished verbally, because that’s just how it works for women in most cultures, regardless of whether or not they have kids. Are a woman? Make a choice? (Anywhere from having a child from buying a certain brand of cheese) Get ready for the fact that someone will have an opinion on it, and feel perfectly entitled to shove said opinion in your face.

    More importantly, though, this “you” that you’re speaking to is just very generic. Which is fine, in one sense, I mean, I come from a fairly traditional culture where women face similar pressure – so I think I understand where you’re coming from – but also, looking down at the face of my child, one week old today and lying asleep in our crappy apartment we have to struggle to keep at the moment, things being what they are, I kinda wonder when those checks from Cultural and Social Support Co. will come rolling in. And hell, I’m white. And living in a country, Russia, that’s got some form of social medicine going (gave birth for free).

  54. Let’s try snarking on mad the swine with proper html this time!

    And they have an entire culture dedicated to worshiping them. Feminists don’t need to join in the paeans. Feminism, in fact, does far more good supporting the unprivileged choice not to have children than it does joining the crowd propping up breeder privilege.

    As a breeder and a feminist, I just have to say – Aw. You bring the lulz.

  55. The feminist movement generally is not the right space in which to privilege/center the choice to be child free, even though that choice is a site of oppression/judgment for women. Which is not to say that there shouldn’t be feminist spaces that center the concerns of the child free or mothers specifically. Internet feminism tends to be represented right now by young, single feminists who are not mothers, and the personal experiences of the moderators, bloggers and those in a similar circumstances colors the spaces that are the “big” feminist blogs. And there is value in encouraging those blogs to address a wider range of feminist issues, and to refrain from posts that put off groups of feminists who have very different experiences and day to day concerns. But there is also value in recognizing that these few blogs are not all of feminism and increasing the visibility of and access to spaces that have a different focus.

    I think some of these issues are more constructively viewed not as “what is feminism about” but “what is this blog about” and “how representative (or not) is this blog of feminism as a whole.”

    1. @Emily I see what you’re saying, and that is part of the issue. Certainly, who does the writing on the ‘big blogs’ naturally has an impact on the perspectives offered. There are two downunder feminist group blogs I know of which tackle feminist motherhood more visibly — Hoyden About Town and The Hand Mirror — and, as was recently pointed out to me, these were both founded by feminist mothers.

      But this isn’t only a post about this blog or even just blogging. I see feminists in other places writing about motherhood in problematic/dismissive ways.

      Exhibit A, Erica Jong.

  56. I have also found that a lot of these “mommy wars” issues are ones in which BOTH opposing choices are ones that women are judged/attacked for. And because everyone has an experience of being judged negatively for her choice, sometimes someone talking about their different choice feels like judgement when it’s not. And sometimes snark and venting is a way to react against that judgment against one choice. But when it’s done in public, in a space where people have been judged and shamed and discriminated against for making the opposite choice, the value of venting has to be balanced against the harm of reinforcing judgment against the other side. When it comes to most motherhood/parenting decisions we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t (not necessarily by the same people for each choice, but by a big enough group to make it feel like “society” generally).

  57. Emily: But there is also value in recognizing that these few blogs are not all of feminism and increasing the visibility of and access to spaces that have a different focus.

    I completely agree. I am a feminist, and I while I read daily news about feminism online, I rarely visit feminist blogs. The experiences are generally too singular for me, i.e. the views expressed are typically from white, middle-class, western-world feminists blogging from the comfort of their suburban couches. And that’s great – but that’s not me, and that’s not what defines my feminism.

  58. Ultimately, what we need is more support for those who are caring for dependents, regardless of who those dependents are. We should have a support network for mothers caring for children, fathers caring for children, one sibling caring for another, a child caring for a disabled parent.

    Me? In addition to my kid, I’m caring for a mentally disabled uncle. At least I can get the kid insured without having to jump through 40 million + hoops.

    When someone doesn’t have the ability to care for themselves, society as a whole seems to have this ‘not my problem, toss them to the streets’ mentality. It’s like some kind of institutionalized selfishness. It’s almost like they dread the thought that one day they may be responsible for the well being of another person, and so to stave off that possibility they do everything they can to make care-givers lives harder.

    I can’t support centering mothers because mothers aren’t the only caregivers out there. Anyone should be able to take a family medical leave if needed, whether they are a mother caring for a new child or a son holding his dying father’s hand. Anyone should be able to get support to care for another human being that needs care, whether it is a mother with small children or a brother with a disabled sister.

  59. saurus:
    This comment is not directed towards any single person or comment.

    Saurus, I think there’s been a lot you’ve posted that I don’t agree with, but THIS, on the whole, was FUCKING BRILLIANT.

  60. There’s something niggling at me here (and actually, in other spaces), and that’s the idea that anyone discussing issues in a place like this must be de facto privileged, who views others as lesser beings they can passively judge.

    Anyone speaking out against various -isms (again, not just here) is assumed to be a bored SJ ~ally~, with all the rubbish that entails. I wish people would stop assuming that. We’re not all cis, T/CAB, middle-class, white, straight, neurotypical Americans. (although I am white) If I’m talking about classism, ableism, heterosexism, binarism or whatever, it’s because I’m directly affected by it and it hurts me, not for SJ-cookies.

    WRT kids – I want a place where I can safely say “I’m child-free” without it being assumed that I hate children, hate women, hate parents. Also, where nobody will say “Unless you’ve had kids, your views mean nothing, you’re not even a real adult”. I may not have birthed any, but I helped to raise three (when their parents virtually abandoned them). I then co-fostered the middle one’s own baby for 8 months.

    I’m not child-less, that would imply, to me, that my life is worse because I haven’t borne children. In fact, my life would be magnitudes worse if I did have children. I don’t believe there’s a word in my language that could sum up what an effort it would be to bring babies into this life. Even ‘radical’ couldn’t cut it.

    Given the atmosphere of hatred in my country at the moment, where anyone disabled is supposed to be punished for “bleeding Britain dry”, it would be irresponsible of me to add kids to the mix. The fact that becoming a parent is totally impossible has actually helped somewhat, because even a 1% chance would have done nothing but feed the anguish I once had, whereas zero chance is zero chance. There is no dilemma, nothing can be done, so why waste tears?

    I believe rights for families are bound up with feminism, birthing parents should have full maternity leave, supporting parents should get time off too, and the same goes for adoption leave. I believe in supplementary child benefits, nutritional programmes, free breastfeeding equipment where necessary, the right to feed publicly, government subsidised daycare, free prenatal+pregnancy+postnatal care, free contraception and sterilisation, and it goes without saying – free abortions.

    But, because I haven’t got my own kids, my views are unimportant to some. I’m not enough of a feminist because I’m not a ‘Radical Mama’, even though that choice was never really mine in the first place.

    We’re lucky to be surrounded by an abundance of kids, we’re their Cool Aunties, but it still makes me angry to be looked down on because of a choice that wasn’t mine. It makes my blood boil when people make assumptions without knowing my past, or my partner’s past, just because there are no children with us now. This is rarely a black/white issue.

  61. Sorry, accidentally snipped a bit that explains that we’re looked down on, often, by society at large. If I had a quid for every time I’d heard “Well just adopt!” or “Just foster!”, and then got the disgusted looks back upon explaining “That’s not an option”, then I’d have my own mansion.

    Some people seem to act as if we’re shirking some kind of responsibility, when actually – kids had been in our plans, but now they can’t be. It’s clearly just not meant to be, but there are people who won’t take that on face value, who say “But there’s always X and Y” and who take personal offence at “Actually no, that’s not possible either”. Just try saying “Trust me, we’re out of options” (in any personal scenario) and you risk being treated as either a petulant child, or a naif.

  62. Dao: Hendo, you’re not alone. I sometimes feel the same way.

    @spiltmilk, thanks for the article!

    @dao, I could cry to know someone else feels the same! I have a couple of single girlfriends who will quietly mutter about this stuff with me, but I rarely talk about it in public spaces or on the internet.

  63. Bridget: Hendo, thanks for saying that! I experienced that as well. And in fact, wanting a family ended up being a really healthy thing for me in that I was forced to take a hard look at the type of people I was choosing to date and this ultimately led me to my husband/kid’s dad. And I personally believe that more kids being raised by feminists is a very good thing for the world!

    Oh and Bridget! Yes. It’s doing the same for me at the moment. Funny how you can develop high standards once you bring some hypothetical, potential kids into the picture. I love hearing from someone who used to feel like that. It gives me hope!

  64. My viewpoint? Just because a woman makes a decision, doesn’t make it a feminist one.

    I’ll support a woman’s right to chose parenthood, I however will NOT support them:

    Abusing children.
    Abusing others using said children as justification.
    Abusing other women to maintain their privilege.

    Much of the bad behaviour complained about is perpetuated by bigoted women who think that the world revolves around them because they have a kid.

    You want to be a mother? That’s your choice and I’ll back you to the hilt on it including saying you should get support since it’s not an easy job.

    If you want to be ablist, misogynistic, or otherwise bigoted to me and others, then as far as I and others are concerned, you and your offspring shouldn’t be supported to do that.

    Too many women have kids and proceed to tell other women that we’re stupid, need to get back in the kitchen/have kids as well, or otherwise act demanding. Your uterus works, congratulations, it however does not elevate you to the most important person in the world, except possibly in the eyes of your child.

    Plus there’s been shit like the able bodied parents in the UK losing it because they were going to lose what was basically pocket change for them, for the last decade the government has been cutting help for some of the most vulnerable groups in the community. Did they give a hoot when worse was happening to disabled parents, disabled kids, OAPs who’d long since raised their own kids or disabled/OAPs without kids? Did they hell. But the minute they might lose a penny, you’d think the government had threatened to cut the throats of their children.

    Perhaps they should try giving a shit about others before whining that nobody else cares about their issues.

    Not to mention the campaigns by various parent groups to basically fuck over disabled and OAPs in order to benefit parents. Cos hey, we didn’t want to go to the shop or need to be to use the toilets when out amirite?

    Not to mention all the damn times some entitled parent has stamped into disabled groups and whined about how it’s unfair that we get things we need when her wants aren’t being met. Then called us all selfish because we won’t give up what slender help we get so she can get something she wants, because campaigning for new facilities? That’s too much hard work, disabled people better hand over theirs or be called selfish and greedy.

    In short, if parents want to know why there is such backlash and complaining about bad behaviour, they need look no further than the nearest misogynistic, ablistic, racist, entitled asshole with kids.

    Also criticising shitty people who happen to be parents =/= criticising all parents.

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