Marriage Tip:

131 thoughts on Marriage Tip:

1. For some men the “rite of bachelor’s party strippers” is one they don’t want to give up and they need to inquire about this before they pop the question or immediately after the question is popped to them. For some people saying they cant have strippers is a demand they will not go for. They have that right. But, likewise, the anti-stripper person in the relationship has the right to not be cool with that and not marry a person who wants that. At some point in deciding to be with someone giving up what is important to you FOREVER just doesn’t make sense when you can simply be with someone else who wouldn’t want or need you to make that same sacrifice. It’s part of the compatibility pakage.

2. For some men the “rite of bachelor’s party strippers” is one they don’t want to give up

   Which is probably why they’ve been divorced so often that they’ve started thinking of the “bachelor’s party” as a regular thing they do with treats they shouldn’t havr to give up.

3. Yonmei:
   For some men the “rite of bachelor’s party strippers” is one they don’t want to give up

   Which is probably why they’ve been divorced so often that they’ve started thinking of the “bachelor’s party” as a regular thing they do with treats they shouldn’t havr to give up.

   …wait, what? Wanting a stripper at your bachelor’s party means you get a bunch of divorces? Did I read that wrong?

4. Yonmei: P>Which is probably why they’ve been divorced so often that they’ve started thinking of the “bachelor’s party” as a regular thing they do with treats they shouldn’t havr to give up.

   I guess I should get ready for my husband to sign those papers because I surely wasn’t going to give up my “rite” to a bachelorette party and I personally planned his bachelor’s party ( complete with hot strippers in a very nice club ).

   I dont know, maybe its because I know a few strippers who are happy with their job and don’t see themselves as brainless victims who are being taken advantage of, or maybe it’s because I’ve gone to strip clubs and danced with the strippers like we were at a night club and everybody was fully dressed. I don’t know, but I can’t get with the almost patronizing hostility people have against strippers and their clients.

5. If you can not communicate and compromise enough to agree on something like this, I wonder if you should really get married. Perhaps it is a useful test?

6. This reads like a couple of issues to me:

   1) Political: If ya’ll disagree so fundamentally about paying for sexual services, for example, or “you thought he had more sophisticated taste in recreational activities,” there are some other issues that need to be brought to the table before you sign the marital contract. Can you live with a guy who knows how strongly you feel about this (or any other) issue and tells you to fuck off anyway? This is a pretty big compatibility conflict. And I’m not fond of significant others who make a habit of blowing me off.

   2) Trust: So, you don’t want him touching other naked women. Maybe you should make it clear that monogamy is a must and anything else, including bachelor party loopholes, is a dealbreaker. If this isn’t so, there’s obviously some renegotiation that needs to be done.

   Say, for example, you’re like my family member who always thought that her husband wasn’t into that kind of thing, and even took pride in her husband being so feminist to forego it, but found out while paying some credit card bills that he’d attended 5-6 business meetings at strip clubs while trying to woo some overseas clients. That shift of his image in her eyes damn near ruined their twenty-year marriage.

   I’d like to say I have no strong feelings about it — some of the bachelorette parties I’ve attended have had male strippers, and they’re cheesy and boring after about ten minutes of having a dollar bill picked up off your face by a dude’s butt (ugh) — but the truth is that the expectation has been set that my husband isn’t interested in or impressed by strippers and I prefer it that way. If he suddenly changed his mind and started insisting on his right to attend adult entertainment venues, we’d have some talking to do.

7. Dear Jill,

   Christ–THANK YOU.

   Signed,
   Didn’t Find Out He Did It Anyway Until Months Later When His Groomsman Let Something Slip At Our First Valentine’s Dinner As A Married Couple Which Did I Mention Was A Triple Date With Two Other Couples That Instantly Became The Most Uncomfortable Night Ever For All Involved.

   P.S. Most of a decade later, while I love him, I still haven’t really forgiven him. Which isn’t so much about the strangertits as it about ignoring my clearly, calmly expressed discomfort and going behind my back. “A jerk and also a coward” indeed.

8. Personally, if taking off my clothes for money was my whole profession (and not just an occasional profitable side-line), I’d probably be pretty annoyed at those who freaked out about the idea that people are paying me to take off my clothes (especially if they were mostly freaked out because of false assumptions about what I did while naked).

9. If your future husband tells you that he’s not interested in having strippers but all his friends are calling him a pussy for saying no and so he has to go along with it? He’s a jerk and also a coward, don’t marry him!

   Also, his friends are jerks! Do you really want to spend the rest of your life/time before your divorce with a guy who is a jerk and has jerk friends? Do you want to pay for those assholes to be at your wedding? Do you want them in your life?

   I’ve had boyfriends with jerk friends, and guess what, it either meant that the boyfriend was a jerk or just had really bad taste in friends. You’re better off alone, lady.

10. At my brother’s bachelor party, there was some discussion of hiring a stripper to play board games with us, because we had 11 people which is an awkward number because most of the games we like are best with 4 or 5.

11. Tom Foolery: At my brother’s bachelor party, there was some discussion of hiring a stripper to play board games with us, because we had 11 people which is an awkward number because most of the games we like are best with 4 or 5.

    Excellent idea.

    Lance: Personally, if taking off my clothes for money was my whole profession (and not just an occasional profitable side-line), I’d probably be pretty annoyed at those who freaked out about the idea that people are paying me to take off my clothes (especially if they were mostly freaked out because of false assumptions about what I did while naked).

    Lance, it’s more complicated than that. Using sex workers as a way for committed men to step out on otherwise monogamous relationships is basically a worldwide thing. I think it’s pretty normal for the wives and girlfriends in this equation to give that social norm (and the men who hope to benefit from the privilege) the stinkeye regardless of how we feel about sex workers’ rights.

    1. Lance, it’s more complicated than that. Using sex workers as a way for committed men to step out on otherwise monogamous relationships is basically a worldwide thing. I think it’s pretty normal for the wives and girlfriends in this equation to give that social norm (and the men who hope to benefit from the privilege) the stinkeye regardless of how we feel about sex workers’ rights.

       Yes, exactly. And there is a not-small number of men who use bachelor parties / strip clubs / etc as excuses to cheat without calling it cheating. I don’t think it’s unfair for women to say, “You know, I’m really not cool with you going to a strip club or a brothel for your bachelor party;” that isn’t just women being crazy bitches who are trying to prevent their partners from doing totally harmless Dude Things that they should be 100% entitled to do.

       That said, the stinkeye needs to be directed, as Florence said, at the social norm and not at the stripper.

12. Also, it’s not as if there are a lot of options for women when it comes to stuff like this (unless you like those Chippendale dancers, and they aren’t my thing). I don’t blame sex workers for that–everyone’s got bills to pay, and they’re just doing their job–but I do resent the fact that the guys have these options, we don’t, and we get slagged off for maybe being uncomfortable with having to put up with this. I’m willing to bet that if we had the options men had, you’d suddenly hear these same guys complaining that it wasn’t cool for their fiancees to do this on a hen night.

13. I read both of the pieces and thought: whoa, I’m so glad I don’t know the kind of losers who would want strippers at their bachelor parties. Not one of my male friends, or brothers, have done this. But I thought the piece in the Hairpin, which I’d read this morning, was funny and not really making fun of the women, but the men and what losers they are. I thought the author was poking fun at the men, not the women. Did I miss something?

    But short of wanting strippers at bachelor parties and having sex with them, like the losers in the Marie Claire article, there’s a lot of questionable behavior exhibited by engaged men I know. Indeed, I know firsthand, recently, how a great guy (who everybody refers to as an ‘amazing’ guy) can engage in some not-so-appropriate things with a woman who isn’t his fiancee, days before his wedding. Is it the freak out about the long-term monogamy commitment and think “I can do this just until I say the vows, and then I’ll stop.” But I digress.

14. Florence:

    Lance, it’s more complicated than that.Using sex workers as a way for committed men to step out on otherwise monogamous relationships is basically a worldwide thing.I think it’s pretty normal for the wives and girlfriends in this equation to give that social norm (and the men who hope to benefit from the privilege) the stinkeye regardless of how we feel about sex workers’ rights.

    There are a few issues here. First of all, it assumes that this contact with strippers actually constitutes cheating. Frankly, if I were to ever have a significant other that considered the things described in that article to be cheating I would have run away long before the subject of a bachelor party could come up.

    Second, there is an undercurrent of shaming here that does nothing but reinforce the negative social norms. There’s an implied support for the judgement of the woman who doesn’t want male partner to do something like this, as if her request is automatically reasonable and if her partner doesn’t agree with it than he is being unreasonable (or, as has been stated earlier “a jerk and a coward”). This isn’t being seen as a valid disagreement between two partners that may require some basic renegotiating of the relationship (despite some attempts in Jill’s post to position it that way). Consider this, what if the female partner was telling her male partner that she was distressed at the idea of him having a dinner with one of his old exes? Would the attitude towards her request be the same? Would the attitude about his desire to have that dinner be the same?

    Finally, of course, this whole thing assumes an attempt at what (for many) is an unhealthy and unsustainable take on monogamy.

    1. There are a few issues here. First of all, it assumes that this contact with strippers actually constitutes cheating. Frankly, if I were to ever have a significant other that considered the things described in that article to be cheating I would have run away long before the subject of a bachelor party could come up.

       It doesn’t assume that, though. What Florence is saying is that a lot of men use sex work to cheat. Some number of men cheat at bachelor parties as part of a “male bonding experience.” Some number of men hire sex workers and have sex with them. Florence isn’t saying that going to a strip club = cheating, or that anything described in the article was cheating. She is saying that a lot of men cheat with sex workers. She is saying that it’s within the rights of female parties to look askance at male partners going to strip clubs.

       Second, there is an undercurrent of shaming here that does nothing but reinforce the negative social norms. There’s an implied support for the judgement of the woman who doesn’t want male partner to do something like this, as if her request is automatically reasonable and if her partner doesn’t agree with it than he is being unreasonable (or, as has been stated earlier “a jerk and a coward”).

       I mean, look, if having a stripper at your bachelor party is so incredibly important as to be a near relationship deal-breaker? If you know that it upsets your partner so much that she isn’t eating and sleeping? Then yes, you are a jerk if you keep insisting on it. I would say the same thing if a woman was determined to have male strippers at her bachelorette and her fiance was really uncomfortable with it.

       Consider this, what if the female partner was telling her male partner that she was distressed at the idea of him having a dinner with one of his old exes? Would the attitude towards her request be the same? Would the attitude about his desire to have that dinner be the same?

       …yes? If they discussed it and it was really really really upsetting her and he insisted on doing it anyway? Yeah, he’s kind of a jerk. You say that I’m not seeing this as a valid disagreement between two partners that may require negotiating, but that’s exactly what I’m saying — the first line of the post says to talk about it. But yes, I do think men who put their desire to see strippers ahead of their partners’ emotional health are jerks. Going to a strip club in order to bond with other dudes over naked women’s bodies should not be more important than your relationship or your partner’s feelings.

15. My husband has INVITED me to his stag party. It helps that I also enjoy female strippers, I guess. Also that I don’t consider enjoying the presence of dancing naked women for cash to be cheating.
    I would appreciate more strip clubs with male dancers, or co-ed places, but other than that this isn’t too much of an issue for us.

    I can only speak from my perspective though. I guess it really bothers other women for whatever reason. :/

16. But Jill, the thing that you are missing here is that his bros are dudes. Dudes! Their opinions and feelings count, and shit. His fiancee’s just a chick who is probably–statistically speaking–making noise at him at this very moment. Surely you see why these two things are not the same.

17. Ellie: Wanting a stripper at your bachelor’s party means you get a bunch of divorces? Did I read that wrong?

    Azalea seemed to think this was a regular rite. The only way it can be regular for any one bachelor is if he’s had at least as many marriages as Doctor James Wilson.

    Ali: But I thought the piece in the Hairpin, which I’d read this morning, was funny and not really making fun of the women, but the men and what losers they are. I thought the author was poking fun at the men, not the women. Did I miss something?

    Sure, the stripper is poking fun at the men who hire her and her partner-for-the-evening: it’s a fair warning to dudes who think strippers are totally turned on by their job that basically, to sex workers, they’re just a smelly, silly bunch of people providing rent money.

18. Jill:
    …yes? If they discussed it and it was really really really upsetting her and he insisted on doing it anyway? Yeah, he’s kind of a jerk. You say that I’m not seeing this as a valid disagreement between two partners that may require negotiating, but that’s exactly what I’m saying — the first line of the post says to talk about it. But yes, I do think men who put their desire to see strippers ahead of their partners’ emotional health are jerks. Going to a strip club in order to bond with other dudes over naked women’s bodies should not be more important than your relationship or your partner’s feelings.

    I think we’re actually closer to the same page than I’ve indicated. I’m not saying that you don’t see it as a thing that needs to be negotiated (I did mention that you made efforts to put it that way in your post). My critique was more of the attitude towards this situation that was coming out in the comments.

    I do agree that this is something that should be discussed between the partners and that whatever is agreed to should be stuck with. It is a jerk thing to know that something will hurt your partner and then doing it anyways.

    However, consider the hypothetical about the woman who doesn’t want her man to go have a dinner with an ex. If a she was so worried about such a possible dinner that she wasn’t able to sleep and was losing weight over the situation, I think a lot more people would be expressing concerned about her basic trust issues (and controlling behavior) than about how horrible it was that the man brought up the topic of wanting to go have a dinner with an old ex.

19. Lance: There’s an implied support for the judgement of the woman who doesn’t want male partner to do something like this, as if her request is automatically reasonable and if her partner doesn’t agree with it than he is being unreasonable (or, as has been stated earlier “a jerk and a coward”).

    You do realize that the person who called her partner a “jerk” and a “coward” did so because she told him she was uncomfortable, he told her that in that case, he wouldn’t go to a strip club, and then she only found out a year later that he had, in fact, gone to a strip club?

    What’s not jerky or cowardly about that?

20. Lance: However, consider the hypothetical about the woman who doesn’t want her man to go have a dinner with an ex. If a she was so worried about such a possible dinner that she wasn’t able to sleep and was losing weight over the situation, I think a lot more people would be expressing concerned about her basic trust issues (and controlling behavior) than about how horrible it was that the man brought up the topic of wanting to go have a dinner with an old ex.

    Strange though it may seem, Lance, many people do have different feelings about food and sex.

    Wanting to have a meal with his ex and talk over old times is just different from wanting to hire his ex as a stripper and watch her shake her booty for him and his friends.

    But also: if a friend of mine admitted she was getting stressed out over her partner having a shared meal with his ex. my first thought wouldn’t be “Wow, she’s controlling and has trust issues” – it would be “What has he done that makes her feel this way about a shared meal?”

21. Also: even though there are male strippers who market their services to female customers, the typical Chippendale’s or Thunder From Down Under experience doesn’t involve the possibility of a little paid sex on the side, which is something that many men who go to strip clubs expect to get.

    I’ve been to several events at male strip shows, and I can safely say that I have absolutely no expectation that the very oily man who is grinding his crotch in my face will be slipping me a little sausage later if I slip a $20 in his banana hammock. A lot of men think that the female stripper is there for their sexual gratification — and since the stripper may need the cash, she may very well provide that service. Or she may not — I’ve known women who much preferred being the Live Nude Girl because it wasn’t possible for the customers to get physically near them to even ask.

22. “I mean, look, if having a stripper at your bachelor party is so incredibly important as to be a near relationship deal-breaker? If you know that it upsets your partner so much that she isn’t eating and sleeping? Then yes, you are a jerk if you keep insisting on it. I would say the same thing if a woman was determined to have male strippers at her bachelorette and her fiance was really uncomfortable with it.”

    This is the dumbest line of reasoning. So a man is a jerk solely on the basis of his gf/wife/fiance getting emotional about something. What if she was getting emotional over something completely practical and mundane? Is he still a jerk because he thinks that it is stupid to follow her advice? I think so.

    First off Jill, your definitions are a little messed up. Men go to brothels and call escort services to have sex with women. They go to strip clubs to have women sit and grind on them. One is clearly cheating, the other isn’t but involves sexual arousal. If men want to pay for sex, the last place you would go to is a strip club. Nothing but overpriced beer and lap dances.

    The bigger issue here is why doesn’t she trust him NOT to cheat when he is away from her doing anything (work, family, parties, strip clubs, etc…). Why does she think so low of her fiance to begin with? Seems like she has trust issues.

    Personally, I don’t put any demands on my gf. If she wants to go out with her girlfriends and see male strippers…go for it. But she better reciprocate and not get mad when I want to see female strippers. Anything short of that is holding your partner to a higher standard then you hold yourself.

    1. This is the dumbest line of reasoning. So a man is a jerk solely on the basis of his gf/wife/fiance getting emotional about something. What if she was getting emotional over something completely practical and mundane? Is he still a jerk because he thinks that it is stupid to follow her advice? I think so.

       No, but social context matters. Sex work and stripping does not exist in a vacuum; there is a reason many women get upset about it. It’s not just the emotional reaction, it’s also all the baggage that comes with the thing itself.

       The bigger issue here is why doesn’t she trust him NOT to cheat when he is away from her doing anything (work, family, parties, strip clubs, etc…). Why does she think so low of her fiance to begin with? Seems like she has trust issues.

       Maybe that’s the issue, but maybe cheating isn’t the concern. I’ve never been in a relationship where I was scared that my SO would cheat on me with a stripper. I do, however, have serious issues with the kinds of men who view strip clubs as necessary parts of the Male Bonding Experience. That would be my issue — not that I’m concerned he’d cheat, but that I have a serious problem with group bonding via paying women to perform. Which isn’t to say that I always 100% object to men going to strip clubs; I don’t, and I realize that other people have different relationship requirements and beliefs, and I think context matters and the individuals involved matter. But yeah, if I was getting married and my fiance was suddenly like, “I’m getting strippers at my bachelor party!” it would be pretty surprising, because I generally think I just wouldn’t be with a dude who was like that. And if I raised concerns and he was like, “You’re being controlling why don’t you trust me?,” that would be a huge red flag.

       1. I also love how suggesting men don’t have an inalienable right to strippers makes all the dudes in the comments flip out.

23. Yeah, so this concept of “cheating” … when people disagree about what it means, they’re assuming it has a meaning other than what people in a relationship decide it means. And if people in a relationship haven’t discussed it, they both just assume they know what it is, and based on people’s inability to agree on what it means in online discussions, there’s no reason to believe people share common assumptions about what the rules are.

24. Thomas MacAulay Millar 6.28.2011 at 4:52 pm
    Yeah, so this concept of “cheating” … when people disagree about what it means, they’re assuming it has a meaning other than what people in a relationship decide it means. And if people in a relationship haven’t discussed it, they both just assume they know what it is, and based on people’s inability to agree on what it means in online discussions, there’s no reason to believe people share common assumptions about what the rules are.

    Thank you. If you and your partner have discussed it and come to an agreement that casting glances at other people on the bus constitutes cheating, then that is cheating (and good luck with your relationship). If you and your partner have discussed it and decided that sneaking off to a seedy motel to have sex with another person is not cheating, then that is not cheating.

    Cheating can be different in the context of different relationships.

    1. Cheating can be different in the context of different relationships.

       Yes, totally. However! If you haven’t discussed all the minutia, I think it’s probably safe to assume that unless otherwise specified, fucking a sex worker the night before your wedding is cheating. In my past few relationships, I haven’t said to my boyfriend, “Ok, no more paying people for sex!” We have basically just said, “So uh, we’re like boyfriend-girlfriend now, right?” and I don’t think it’s totally out there to assume that for most people, unless otherwise discussed, being boyfriend/girlfriend means your genitals don’t get to touch anyone else’s genitals. Again, people totally have alternate set-ups and that’s great, but I don’t have a lot of patience for the “It wasn’t cheating because my girlfriend never said I COULDN’T fuck other people!” excuse.

25. @Jill: Oh, absolutely! That’s why I included the “If you and your partner have discussed it…” disclaimer.

26. zuzu:
    Also: even though there are male strippers who market their services to female customers, the typical Chippendale’s or Thunder From Down Under experience doesn’t involve the possibility of a little paid sex on the side, which is something that many men who go to strip clubs expect to get.

    I’m almost completely certain that you’re wrong here. Granted, I’m usually more on the supply-side of the “people taking off their clothes” transaction, but based on what I’ve heard from the friends I know who go to strip clubs, my friends who dance in strip clubs, and from reading various stripper and sex worker blogs online, I think it’s safe to say that most men honestly expect to have sex with a stripper is completely false.

    Jill: No, but social context matters. Sex work and stripping does not exist in a vacuum; there is a reason many women get upset about it. It’s not just the emotional reaction, it’s also all the baggage that comes with the thing itself.

    Maybe that’s the issue, but maybe cheating isn’t the concern. I’ve never been in a relationship where I was scared that my SO would cheat on me with a stripper. I do, however, have serious issues with the kinds of men who view strip clubs as necessary parts of the Male Bonding Experience. That would be my issue — not that I’m concerned he’d cheat, but that I have a serious problem with group bonding via paying women to perform. Which isn’t to say that I always 100% object to men going to strip clubs; I don’t, and I realize that other people have different relationship requirements and beliefs, and I think context matters and the individuals involved matter. But yeah, if I was getting married and my fiance was suddenly like, “I’m getting strippers at my bachelor party!” it would be pretty surprising, because I generally think I just wouldn’t be with a dude who was like that. And if I raised concerns and he was like, “You’re being controlling why don’t you trust me?,” that would be a huge red flag.

    I agree that context matters. Bringing up that you are uncomfortable with the idea is perfectly reasonable (similarly, it’s reasonable for him to explain why he would want to go, and to dispel any misconceptions like the ones zuzu has about what happens at strip clubs and what the people going to them expect). That’s just a couple discussing stuff. However, the level of reaction that this evoked in some of the comments on that Hairpin article are far out of proportion to the activity itself that (going back to my original comment) I think Kat’s attitude there is justified.

    There is baggage around strip clubs, true. Some of the baggage is about things you mentioned like objectification and paying women to perform, but a lot of that baggage is tied to sex negativity and slut-shaming. It seems that those who have some of the strongest negative reactions to the idea of a partner visiting a strip club are those whose baggage around the consists of the latter.

27. Jill:
    I also love how suggesting men don’t have an inalienable right to strippers makes all the dudes in the comments flip out.

    More than circumcision even. You can take away my foreskin but do NOT fuck with my lapdances.

    Brandon:

    First off Jill, your definitions are a little messed up. Men go to brothels and call escort services to have sex with women. They go to strip clubs to have women sit and grind on them. One is clearly cheating, the other isn’t but involves sexual arousal. If men want to pay for sex, the last place you would go to is a strip club. Nothing but overpriced beer and lap dances.

    In the whole history of the world a lapdance has never turned into a sexual encounter, ever. Not only that but a lapdance is not in and of itself a sexual encounter. Just ask Brandon.

    That was sarcasm, by the way.

    The lapdance thing is just, sorry, no. I’m not comfortable with people grinding on my man. I guess that makes me a hopeless fuddy duddy and shrew?

28. Lance: IThere is baggage around strip clubs, true. Some of the baggage is about things you mentioned like objectification and paying women to perform, but a lot of that baggage is tied to sex negativity and slut-shaming. It seems that those who have some of the strongest negative reactions to the idea of a partner visiting a strip club are those whose baggage around the consists of the latter.

    Upthread someone seemed to argue that getting to visit strip clubs is just like giving strangers the eye on the bus.

    No, no, it’s not.

    Look, a non-jerky boyfriend, it seems to me, even if he likes to
    go to strip clubs and wants to continue to go to strip clubs while he’s in a relationship, will bring this up in a non-manipulative, non-jerky way, outline why he likes to go, listen respectfully to his girlfriend talk out how she feels about strip clubs, and decide together if this a dealbreaker in their relationship.

    If he’s into strip clubs because he has a crapload of sex-negativity and slut-shaming issues on board, he’s not really likely to be able to bring up his dirty needs to his nice girlfriend: he’s going to think he should conceal his going to a stripclub from her. That concealment is, IMO, a pretty good sign she should DTMFA, unless she likes being treated like the pure princess who isn’t going to understand that sometimes men need to go look at sluts.

    We’re seeing a lot of baggage from a lot of guys on this thread, you included Lance, at the suggestion that their going to strip clubs is a privilege, not a right…

29. Every bachelor party my husband has ever been to has involved a bunch of men sitting around with beer and board games. It is Not as Faskinating as they would have you believe.

    That said, I do judge the women in my social network who flip out about strip clubs. Mainly when they start in on calling the strippers sluts and whores, which tends to happen–but also at the idea that your parter can’t see porn/strippers/etc without it being Cheating. That said, I agree about the lapdances. Contact is…well, look but don’t touch, eh? I’m sure it works fine for some people, but I think there’s a different level of openness, there.

30. Brandon at #24:

    First off Jill, your definitions are a little messed up. Men go to brothels and call escort services to have sex with women. They go to strip clubs to have women sit and grind on them. One is clearly cheating, the other isn’t but involves sexual arousal.

    Yeah, see, this is really just an arbitrary distinction that doesn’t hold up under any careful scrutiny. If some dude called up his ex-girlfriend and asked her to come to his hotel room, get naked, and give him a lap dance, most people would in fact call it cheating if it happened within the bounds of a standard monogamous relationship (even if the lap dance only involved “sexual arousal”– an interesting euphemism for “contact between her mostly-naked body and his clothed one, which may or may not result in an orgasm for him”). It’s just that we’ve decided that this kind of behavior doesn’t constitute “cheating” as long as money is changing hands. Women have kind of been browbeaten over time to accept this even though it doesn’t make a goddamn lick of sense, but the reason the bachelor party in particular raises red flags is that, as zuzu mentioned, men are given even more leeway in that situation and the payment may go towards more than “just” a lap dance. And there is, in fact, something aggressive and insulting about the fact that this is all shoved in the future wife’s face and that she’s supposed to be graceful about it (or risk being labeled a joykilling prude).

    Fuck that. If a guy wants to have women who aren’t his partner get naked and touch him for the purpose of sexual arousal and/or orgasm, he can ask his partner if she’s interested in negotiating some form of open relationship which would grant her the same flexibility to have people she’s attracted to get her off (whether paid or not). If he isn’t willing to negotiate that kind of relationship, he’s an asshole looking to coast along on the basis of what is actually a pretty sexist double-standard.

    And pointing this out is in no way “sex-negative.” This is one of the reasons I’m poly, in fact– women are held to a much higher standard of monogamy than men have ever been. But what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and I have absolutely no patience for men who want to redefine the word “cheating” so they can bully their partners into granting them freedoms that they would never grant in return.

    And for the record: sex workers have absolutely no culpability here. They’re just doing their jobs. Women who blame sex workers for the fact that their partners are assholes will receive very little sympathy from me.

31. Stephanie:

    Fuck that. If a guy wants to have women who aren’t his partner get naked and touch him for the purpose of sexual arousal and/or orgasm, he can ask his partner if she’s interested in negotiating some form of open relationship which would grant her the same flexibility to have people she’s attracted to get her off (whether paid or not). If he isn’t willing to negotiate that kind of relationship, he’s an asshole looking to coast along on the basis of what is actually a pretty sexist double-standard.

    And pointing this out is in no way “sex-negative.” This is one of the reasons I’m poly, in fact– women are held to a much higher standard of monogamy than men have ever been. But what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, and I have absolutely no patience for men who want to redefine the word “cheating” so they can bully their partners into granting them freedoms that they would never grant in return.

    And for the record: sex workers have absolutely no culpability here. They’re just doing their jobs. Women who blame sex workers for the fact that their partners are assholes will receive very little sympathy from me.

    This. 100% this.

32. I think the key here is communication. In a relationship, it’s important to stake out the parameters in clear terms (and yes, while monogamy is certainly the norm, I still think what I consider “monogamy” and what he considers “monogamy” ought to be discussed–and frankly, this ought to be done WAY before you start planning a wedding.)

33. Pingback: Marriage Tip: — Feministe | Vegas Bachelor Party | Las Vegas VIP | Las Vegas Bachelor Party

34. I got my husband a stripper for his bachelor party. Admittedly, it was a can of spray stripper from Home Depot. The look on his face was priceless.

35. In my experience there are couples who like strip clubs/sex shows and attend together and/or different venues a catering to different tastes and there are couples who don’t like strip clubs. If you ever have a pairing where one likes and the other doesn’t it’s going to be a constant burr in the relationship.

    @zuzu: You’ve never been to a gay strip club or paid for a private room with the Chippendale-like ones then. I agree with everyone else that a strip club is not where you go to buy sex but you can get a lot more extreme conduct if you’re willing to pay for it than what you get on the stage. That’s true for both men and women.

36. Stephanie: And for the record: sex workers have absolutely no culpability here. They’re just doing their jobs.

    Damn right. The person who pays the sex worker is the asshole, if any assholery is involved.

37. Stephanie: If a guy wants to have women who aren’t his partner get naked and touch him for the purpose of sexual arousal and/or orgasm, he can ask his partner if she’s interested in negotiating some form of open relationship which would grant her the same flexibility to have people she’s attracted to get her off (whether paid or not). If he isn’t willing to negotiate that kind of relationship, he’s an asshole looking to coast along on the basis of what is actually a pretty sexist double-standard.

    A woman in the hairpin comments told her boyfriend that he could get lap dances from strippers if she could go out to the club and grind up on some hot guys. Her boyfriend did not like that idea at all.

38. Jill.

    That would be my issue — not that I’m concerned he’d cheat, but that I have a serious problem with group bonding via paying women to perform.

    Yeah, I know. I also have problems with people bonding over performances. Like, WHAT MONSTER would hire a female clown to perform for them? Or a woman magician?

    You see, what bothers me is not the fact that the man would cheat. No, it’s the fact that he would think that big red noses and facepaint are funny – or that making ANYTHING disappear is an amazing magic trick.

39. David: Yeah, I know. I also have problems with people bonding over performances. Like, WHAT MONSTER would hire a female clown to perform for them? Or a woman magician?

    You see, what bothers me is not the fact that the man would cheat. No, it’s the fact that he would think that big red noses and facepaint are funny – or that making ANYTHING disappear is an amazing magic trick.

    And if women were the clown class, you might have something which would at least be pulled into the gravitational orbit of a good point.

    Alas.

40. Not the same Stephanie as the one from comment #38, for the record (I’m the Stephanie of comment #35), though I do like her spray stripper idea.

41. Stephanie: And if women were the clown class, you might have something which would at least be pulled into the gravitational orbit of a good point.

    Alas.

    But clowns are part of the clown class and they’re underappreciated damn it!

42. Half the problem here is the tradition of bachelor and bachelorette parties anyways. There’s this cultural narrative that when you’re getting married you’re leaving your single friends behind to get “tied down.” It’s supposed to be your last night of fun before you officially become a boring old fogie. It encourages segregating a couple’s friends by sex instead of all going out together. Originally, it was about men only going out and enjoying their “last night of freedom.”

    All that is pretty much sexist tripe. You should still be able to go out with your friends (of whatever gender) after you’re married (even without your spouse). You should be looking forward to your marriage rather than seeing it as the end of your life, or else what the hell are you doing getting married? What is wrong with the couple and all their friends going out together to celebrate the happy occasion instead of splitting up based on the arbitrary feature of gender, and presumably doing things the other group wouldn’t want to do, or wouldn’t want you to be doing?

    If going to strip clubs is a normal activity with no connection to the sexist trope of giving men a “last night of freedom” to hit on women who aren’t his fiance, why is the first time it comes up right before the wedding? I know some married men who go to strip clubs a lot (one of the wives goes with them a lot too), but they made this apparent long before getting engaged, precisely because they saw nothing wrong with it. On the other hand, if he never goes to strip clubs, why does he suddenly want to now?

    I would probably be okay with my partner going to a strip club for his bachelor party, but I would be concerned if his whole opinion on strip clubs changed radically before the wedding (he has expressed that he thinks they’re pointless) or concerned if he had a problem with me doing the same. *Sigh* Although I would actually rather have a joint bachelor-bachelorette party like two of my friends did, just to skip all the sexist baggage of the pre-wedding party.

43. rae:

    I kinda like your idea of doing a big old gender-inclusive pre wedding party. Seems more joyous and reflective of the occasion than a party in a strip-club.

    Then again, I think I find strip clubs a little bit sleazy. That’s just been my impression of them.

44. Not saying I fully agree but really loved rae points and analysis.

    Here in Costa Rica it’s almost as common for women to hire strippers as it’s to men.

    For me is complicated. I love that a woman or men don’t just go with the controlling desires of their partner. I love that express themselves instead of living on a jail of fear : She will leave me if O do this or that.

    In the other hand she is FULLY entitled to end the relationship for any reason she likes. She is fully owner of her feelings and she have the right to express them.

    If most of the cases (not saying in this) if he just comply the controlling will never end. In the other hand if she let it pass the sense of humiliation and the political fight will never end.

    We should not forget that for many feminists this is not a minor issue. For them the men that pay for lap dances should go to jail and the women are slaves.

45. Yonmei: Ellie: Wanting a stripper at your bachelor’s party means you get a bunch of divorces? Did I read that wrong?Azalea seemed to think this was a regular rite. The only way it can be regular for any one bachelor is if he’s had at least as many marriages as Doctor James Wilson.

    No it being a regular rite means that when a guy (ANY guy) gets married, he has a bachelor’s party featuring the last woman he is going to see naked besides his wife for the rest of his life. And he has no intention on having sex with this woman (it is usually the best man or whoever organized it that either works out a deal with the stripper or they have been flirting since the first phone call and working their way up to the one night stand wrap up of the festivities). SO you tell this guy, who has gone to strip clubs for this very even probably since long before he ever knew of your existence that he doesn’t get to have a bachelor’s party because you are really really really uncomfortable with the idea of him seeing another woman naked.

    I get why that would bother some women. But I don’t get how her being bothered by something that has probably been a big deal to him (because some men look forward to the bachelor’s party the way some women looks forward ot the actual wedding). Those guys aren’t jerks they simply aren’t the right man for the type of woman who gets really really bothered by bachelor’s parties.

46. Avida Quesada: Not saying I fully agree but really loved rae points and analysis. Here in Costa Rica it’s almost as common for women to hire strippers as it’s to men.For me is complicated. I love that a woman or men don’t just go with the controlling desires of their partner. I love that express themselves instead of living on a jail of fear : She will leave me if O do this or that. In the other hand she is FULLY entitled to end the relationship for any reason she likes. She is fully owner of her feelings and she have the right to express them.If most of the cases (not saying in this) if he just comply the controlling will never end. In the other hand if she let it pass the sense of humiliation and the political fight will never end. We should not forget that for many feminists this is not a minor issue. For them the men that pay for lap dances should go to jail and the women are slaves.

    I love this comment! I think it is controlling for one person to say dont do this perfectly legal thing that is not cheating because I’ll stop eating and sleeping if you and if you leave me because you can’t comply you’re an asshole and I may still nto eat or sleep.

    If you come to a cross roads on things like that, leave the dramatics at the door when you leave the relationship. You are incompatible and that is all there is to it. When something that is fundamentally important to you is depressingly hurtful and causes emotional and poassible physical detriment (via the person not eating or sleeping over it) then it is just best you two part ways so that you can experience true happiness with likeminded people.

47. Brandon:

    This is the dumbest line of reasoning. So a man is a jerk solely on the basis of his gf/wife/fiance getting emotional about something. What if she was getting emotional over something completely practical and mundane? Is he still a jerk because he thinks that it is stupid to follow her advice? I think so.

    A person is a jerk if he OR she knows some optional activity (non-essential for life/livelihood) will cause his or her partner severe emotional distress and does it anyway. That isn’t about stripping. That isn’t about either gender getting ‘worked up’ over anything in particular. That is about decency. That is about having some fucking sensitivity to your partner’s emotional needs, whatever the gender of either of you.

    And yeah, people exist who will have strongly negative emotional reactions to things you think are perfectly normal, reasonable things to do.

    That usually means you shouldn’t marry them.

    That does NOT mean you should marry them anyway and then ignore their preferences, because THAT makes you a jerk.

48. I have explained to my husband (back to well before we were engaged) that I have no problem with him going to a strip club, so long as he sticks to “look, don’t touch” and tips well (because the dancers work hard!)

    I would have a problem if he was way more into strip clubs than into me, because then the relationship would be in trouble. And I would have a problem if he was the kind of guy who was like YYYEAAH STRIPPERS IMA SEE ME SOME TITTIES!!!1! because then he would be the kind of guy who habitually objectified and disrespected women, and I wouldn’t be with him in the first place.

    He’s explained that he’s not that into strip clubs, because the atmosphere usually sucks, the drinks are way overpriced, and he’d really rather look at a woman who is excited about him, too. He’ll go if friends really want to — and he’s gone with a client who insisted — but it’s not like the highlight of his day. And he’s always found the guys who are like YYEEAAH STRIPPERS to be kind of skeezy.

    The main point of my cool story bro is that we talk about it, honestly and respectfully of each other, and are basically on the same page. It’s a matter of agreeing on boundaries. I know couples with different boundaries than ours about strippers, and it’s totally fine and healthy because they’ve agreed about it.

    If you’re in a relationship with someone who can’t agree with you on boundaries, especially if they ridicule your feelings, then maybe it is not wise to marry them.

    Also — the bachelor party performance she describes sounds hilarious and I kind of want to hire them for my next party now.

49. I can’t stand it when there are strippers at bachelor parties. What really bothers me is this ridiculous collective fantasy that young attractive women are in any way aroused by those present, and by extension that they’d want to have sex with them, or by super extension that they are performing so that those present can pick which one to have sex with.
    I don’t blame women at all for whom this is a deal breaker after looking back at the bachelor parties I’ve been to, and which brides-to-be said ‘absolutely not’, and which ones said ‘ok’, and then went and bit their pillows, (and then seeing what their relationships are like years later). Respect is important.

50. Jill – I read the article, and maybe I’m just blind but I didn’t see anything making fun of women who don’t want their husbands to go see strippers at their bachelor party, beyond sort of a “I’m so bored of people freaking out” about this, which, as an exotic dancer, is a sentiment I can sort of empathize with. One of the experiences I’ve had, as a sex worker, is the experience of endlessly having people, mainly other women, freak out on me about this. While I can be empathetic to their concerns, it can get old. I mean, they know I do this work. The rest of the article, I read as demystifying the experience.

    There is something that sticks in my craw, a bit, about those comments that say or imply something along the lines of “it’s not the strippers fault but the clients are asswipes.” I’m not sure what’s intended, but what comes off to me is something along the lines of “we support sex workers but not the work they do.” I mean, if you think my clients are douche bags, and that what’s going on is douchy, it’s pretty hard to say you support my work and my source of income. To be clear: this paragraph is directed at my reading of some of the comments, not Jill’s article.

    I agree that if anyone in a relationship, any relationship, wants to see a sex worker, s/he should discuss it with his/her partner, in principle. Especially if you’re about to marry someone – I mean, Jill, you’re right on about that, if he can’t respect your boundaries then WHY are you marrying him.

    The thing about being nervous about men going to see strippers because we might sell him sex seems sort of off the mark to me. It’s true that for the right price I might have sex with a client, even tho it’s illegal, but why do people who want a monogamous relationship have to justify not wanting their spouses to see sex workers because there might be sex and this constitutes cheating? I can imagine un-discussed touching, ie lap dances, could well constitute cheating for some people too, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I think it’s real if some folks just don’t want their partners to see exotic dancers period, although I think the original article does a good job of saying, basically, you have zero to worry about pretty much.

51. This.

    Nia:
    There is something that sticks in my craw, a bit, about those comments that say or imply something along the lines of “it’s not the strippers fault but the clients are asswipes.” I’m not sure what’s intended, but what comes off to me is something along the lines of “we support sex workers but not the work they do.” I mean, if you think my clients are douche bags, and that what’s going on is douchy, it’s pretty hard to say you support my work and my source of income. To be clear: this paragraph is directed at my reading of some of the comments, not Jill’s article.

    1. There is something that sticks in my craw, a bit, about those comments that say or imply something along the lines of “it’s not the strippers fault but the clients are asswipes.” I’m not sure what’s intended, but what comes off to me is something along the lines of “we support sex workers but not the work they do.” I mean, if you think my clients are douche bags, and that what’s going on is douchy, it’s pretty hard to say you support my work and my source of income. To be clear: this paragraph is directed at my reading of some of the comments, not Jill’s article

       Hmmm. This isn’t necessarily my perspective, but just as a point, is it so difficult to say that you support someone’s work and source of income and their rights to do that work, but you still think some large percentage of the clientele sucks? I mean, a lot of people would say that about my job, or about bankers, or about employees at the Ed Hardy store.

52. Diana: A person is a jerk if he OR she knows some optional activity (non-essential for life/livelihood) will cause his or her partner severe emotional distress and does it anyway.That isn’t about stripping.That isn’t about either gender getting ‘worked up’ over anything in particular.That is about decency.That is about having some fucking sensitivity to your partner’s emotional needs, whatever the gender of either of you.

    And yeah, people exist who will have strongly negative emotional reactions to things you think are perfectly normal, reasonable things to do.

    That usually means you shouldn’t marry them.

    That does NOT mean you should marry them anyway and then ignore their preferences, because THAT makes you a jerk.

    Ya, whatever..a person (he, she, it, whatever). I am not going to get technical over pointless semantics.

    I see it the other way around. My question is “Why is she getting worked up?” I don’t really care that she is worked up, I want to get to the underlining reason for it. Most of the time it’s control. Women don’t like the idea of men having women touch or grind on them, so they get overly emotional to make the man feel guilty about going. From my POV, its pure manipulation.

    If my girlfriend ever pulled something like this, I wouldn’t yell or scream or argue…I would just point to the door and say “You are free to leave if you want”.

    I find it hysterical that some of the female commenters are calling men that go to strip clubs sleazy. Even though WE WANT THE SAME FROM OUR PARTNERS. It’s romantic and sexy when you do it for your husband/boyfriend/whatever but if he goes to building full of women in a g string that will sit on his lap…then it’s sleazy. So strippers = sleazy, while in a relationship = sexy, romantic, etc..

    Whats even worse is I have seen women not even adhere to their own advice. My friends wife was adamant that we not go to Montreal because of all the strip clubs (that and hockey!). My friend than promised that he wouldn’t go into a strip club. Needless to say, his time after the hockey games was uneventful.

    A little later, the wife informs my friend that she is going to a bachelorette party where they hired male strippers to dance for them. My friend voiced his thoughts and said he would rather she not go because of the strippers. She flipped out, said he was trying to control her and a bunch of other insults to his manhood.

    In the end, I don’t really have to worry about this. I see marriage as an antiquated, oppressive system for men that gets the state involved in something it has no business being in. Contracts are for business…not relationships and feelings.

    1. I see it the other way around. My question is “Why is she getting worked up?” I don’t really care that she is worked up, I want to get to the underlining reason for it. Most of the time it’s control. Women don’t like the idea of men having women touch or grind on them, so they get overly emotional to make the man feel guilty about going. From my POV, its pure manipulation.

       Oh man, crazy bitches not liking it when their partners go out and have other women grind on them! Brandon, would you be cool if your girlfriend had her exboyfriend come over, take off his clothes and rub his dick all over her? Don’t worry, they aren’t having sex, and you’re just being controlling if you take issue with it.

       I find it hysterical that some of the female commenters are calling men that go to strip clubs sleazy. Even though WE WANT THE SAME FROM OUR PARTNERS. It’s romantic and sexy when you do it for your husband/boyfriend/whatever but if he goes to building full of women in a g string that will sit on his lap…then it’s sleazy. So strippers = sleazy, while in a relationship = sexy, romantic, etc..

       Dude, there are a lot of things that are sexy and romantic with partners and sleazy with a stranger. For example, many women want their partners in the delivery room with them when they give birth; it might be a little weird, though, to pay some dude off the street to be in there. Partners may share in child-rearing; it would be a bit weird to hand over your kid to someone you’ve never met or spoken to. Different relationships change dynamics. Duh.

       If my girlfriend ever pulled something like this, I wouldn’t yell or scream or argue…I would just point to the door and say “You are free to leave if you want”.

       For her sake I hope she does. Jesus. You sound like a real prize.

53. I will point out that paying a sex worker to dance is, indeed, “a different relationship,” and one that I at least would be MUCH more comfortable with than the ex-gf/bf scenario.

    The monetary exchange does make a difference, and saying that it is “just like” having an ex dance naked seems disingenuous.

    Jill: Oh man, crazy bitches not liking it when their partners go out and have other women grind on them! Brandon, would you be cool if your girlfriend had her exboyfriend come over, take off his clothes and rub his dick all over her? Don’t worry, they aren’t having sex, and you’re just being controlling if you take issue with it.
    […]
    Different relationships change dynamics. Duh.

    1. The monetary exchange does make a difference, and saying that it is “just like” having an ex dance naked seems disingenuous.

       Totally. I think it makes a difference too. But Brandon seems to think that there shouldn’t be any sort of difference in changed relationship dynamics — so using his logic, it shouldn’t matter if it’s your partner or your ex or a stripper or a child or a hired chimp doing the dancing.

54. I never said crazy bitches. You are making it sound like I am trying to put women down, when I am not.

    Ex-boyfriend and random hot stripper are two different things. If she went out to a strip club, I wouldn’t care. I would be a little upset that she wants to invite her ex-boyfriend over to have his dick rubbed on her. At the end of the day, I can’t control her, nor would I try. It is not my place to tell her what she can and can not do. I tell her how I feel and I let her make the decision that she wants to make.

    I guess strippers aren’t sleazy to me because I can separate sex and emotions.

    People hand their kids over to others all the time…it’s called day care.

    You mean that I am not the typical “nice guy” that feels I have to manipulate my girlfriend into doing things, play the friend or otherwise be disingenuous. Then ya, I am a prize. I am honest with my girlfriend, which is more than I can say about a lot of other men. I care about my girlfriend very much, but I am not going to be all clingy and needy because I am afraid to lose her. There are 3 billion women in the world. I don’t have to waste time manipulating her when I can just as easily get a new girlfriend if either one of us is unhappy (not today though!)

    Equal pay, equal time off, equal rights, pro-choice, non-controlling…hell, I seem like a feminists dream boyfriend since I pretty much agree with 80%+ of feminist beliefs.

    1. I never said crazy bitches. You are making it sound like I am trying to put women down, when I am not.

       Ohhh I’m sorry you just said they’re being “hysterical” if they aren’t cool with their boyfriends going to strip clubs.

       People hand their kids over to others all the time…it’s called day care.

       …which is why I specified handing your kid over to “someone you’ve never met or spoken to.”

       Equal pay, equal time off, equal rights, pro-choice, non-controlling…hell, I seem like a feminists dream boyfriend since I pretty much agree with 80%+ of feminist beliefs.

       Wow, you think women deserve the same rights as men?! What a dreamboat, cookies for you. Please, pat yourself on the back since I can’t reach all the way over there.

55. @Jill: Really…a child or a chimp? Let’s try and keep it to adult human beings shall we.

    1. @Jill: Really…a child or a chimp? Let’s try and keep it to adult human beings shall we.

       But why, if it’s the action that matters and not the person or the relationship?

56. Brandon:

    I would be a little upset that she wants to invite her ex-boyfriend over to have his dick rubbed on her.

    And if she went ahead and did it anyway without regard to your feelings, then she’s probably a jerk and you would be better off dumping her.

    Which is kind of the crux of this whole article.

57. Brandon:

    Equal pay, equal time off, equal rights, pro-choice, non-controlling…hell, I seem like a feminists dream boyfriend since I pretty much agree with 80%+ of feminist beliefs.

    Yep. Defs a dreamboat. I know that if I was a woman I’d be looking for a boyfriend that thinks my emotions are a way of making him feel guilty so as to maintain my ladycontrol. So. Darned. Dreamy.

58. I don’t need a pat on the back. I was pointing out that besides your snide remarks, I tend to agree with a lot of feminist ideas. That’s it, I already have cookies at home…I don’t need one from you.

    I believe I said “overly emotional”. Even still, that doesn’t mean “crazy, hysterical bitches”…that’s just hyperbole.

    Feminist women tend to bemoan that they can’t find a man that shares their beliefs, I point that I do share those beliefs (not everything…but most) and you attack me with snide remarks (condescending “pats on the back” crap). Maybe if feminists dropped the patronizing tone, they might find a man they want (if they even want one).

    The action does matter, but we also have laws. Getting a lap dance from a chimp or child clearly is illegal (as well as disgusting).

    It’s the control I am talking about. There is a difference between your girlfriend/wife saying “You can’t go to the strip club with your friends” and “I will feel uncomfortable with you going to the strip club because…”

    One is honest the other is manipulative. If she was being honest with me, I would appreciate her candor with me and most likely not go. If she was trying to be manipulative with me, I would go to the club simply because I don’t want to give in to her being manipulative because that sets the precedent for her always being manipulative with me. I want to show her that trying to manipulate me doesn’t work and being honest with me is the better option.

59. @Andie: I might or I might not. I trust my girlfriend, so I don’t really worry about scenarios like that.

    @Li: It’s not the emotions…its her response to them. Is she expressing herself or is she barking orders at me? One is welcomed by me, the other I find disrespectful. The same can be said of men. Abusive men tend to express their emotions by trying to control the actions of others. Men need to just express themselves without passing judgement or giving people orders. Sentences that start with “I feel like…” are better than “I don’t want you to…”

    See the difference?

60. Brandon:
    @Andie: I might or I might not. I trust my girlfriend, so I don’t really worry about scenarios like that.

    @Li: It’s not the emotions…its her response to them. Is she expressing herself or is she barking orders at me? One is welcomed by me, the other I find disrespectful. The same can be said of men. Abusive men tend to express their emotions by trying to control the actions of others. Men need to just express themselves without passing judgement or giving people orders. Sentences that start with “I feel like…” are better than “I don’t want you to…”

    See the difference?

    FFS, are we reading the same thread? Who here thinks women “barking orders” at their partners is acceptable?

61. but what comes off to me is something along the lines of “we support sex workers but not the work they do.” I mean, if you think my clients are douche bags, and that what’s going on is douchy, it’s pretty hard to say you support my work and my source of income.

    Why would you expect anyone to say such a thing? Why would I or should I “support your work” any more than I support the work of telemarketers, collections agents, “communications” professors, PR consultants, and anyone else whose human dignity and right to fair and safe workplaces are unquestionable but whose actual work is somewhere between obnoxious and unpleasant?

    I don’t want your job outlawed, I don’t want you harassed or treated with contempt, I want you paid a fair wage with health benefits and I want you unionized if you care to be. You are entitled to all those things. You are not entitled to have random people think your job is neat and “support” it, whatever that may mean.

62. but what comes off to me is something along the lines of “we support sex workers but not the work they do.” I mean, if you think my clients are douche bags, and that what’s going on is douchy, it’s pretty hard to say you support my work and my source of income.

    Why would you expect anyone to say such a thing? Why would I or should I “support your work” any more than I support the work of telemarketers, collections agents, “communications” professors, PR consultants, and anyone else whose human dignity and right to fair and safe workplaces are unquestionable but whose actual work is somewhere between obnoxious and unpleasant?

    I don’t want your job outlawed, I don’t want you harassed or treated with contempt, I want you paid a fair wage with health benefits and I want you unionized if you care to be. You are entitled to all those things. You are not entitled to have random people think your job is neat and “support” it, whatever that may mean.

63. To be perfectly clear, I think the job of sex performer is dumb and obnoxious, and I include fancypants feminist burlesque twirling in that. I think my own job is dumb and obnoxious too and I’m actively looking for a better one. You may not want to associate or be friendly or allied with people who don’t respect your work but that’s not a universal feeling.

64. Brandon:
    I see it the other way around. My question is “Why is she getting worked up?” I don’t really care that she is worked up, I want to get to the underlining reason for it. Most of the time it’s control. Women don’t like the idea of men having women touch or grind on them, so they get overly emotional to make the man feel guilty about going. From my POV, its pure manipulation.

    Other than all the other problems that have been pointed out in this, I’m wondering if there is a line that has to be crossed to make one’s feelings “overly emotional” to the point of “pure manipulation.”
    If the idea of my partner “having women touch or grind on [him]”* is upsetting to me, and I write him a business memo with a bulleted list of the reasons I feel upset am I okay? Or if I tell him without crying? I can see crying as the operative factor for some people, since I’ve been told by men that it was something women “use.” The thing is that most of the time, other people’s emotions are not created for you (not you as in Brandon individually, although that’s also the case). If you view someone’s emotional response to your actions as something they have fabricated for your viewing, then you might end up feeling like every negative, or even any, feeling someone has is manipulation, but that’s not the way people have emotions. My parents were really happy when I got into schools; they were being “overly emotional” to manipulate me into furthering my education. I cried when I broke my ankle; I wasn’t being “overly emotional” to manipulate people into giving me medical care. Likewise, if someone gets bothered/mad/sad at the idea of their partner going to a strip club, they are just experiencing their emotions.

    *I don’t have a well formulated opinion on whether I think going to a strip club/getting lap dances would be considered cheating in my relationship. But I think it is really interesting that for some people paying a stranger to touch or grind on you is not cheating, but perhaps if a stranger touched or grinded(ground?) on you without an exchange of money (ie at a club) that would be cheating. Totally just something I think is interesting, not a judgment on anyone who feels those ways, as I don’t know how I feel myself.

65. Brandy: FFS, are we reading the same thread? Who here thinks women “barking orders” at their partners is acceptable?

    Apparently the people who think the men not following those orders are jerks. If you TELL a grown person what they are not allowed to do then suggest they are jerks or asshats for not follwing such orders it makes you a controlling asshole. Regardless of gender.

    1. Apparently the people who think the men not following those orders are jerks. If you TELL a grown person what they are not allowed to do then suggest they are jerks or asshats for not follwing such orders it makes you a controlling asshole. Regardless of gender.

       …really? If I tell my partner “You are not allowed to sleep with other people,” I’m a controlling asshole?

66. Women don’t like the idea of men having women touch or grind on them, so they get overly emotional to make the man feel guilty about going.

    Oddly enough, no guy I’ve ever dated has would have been okay with other guys touching me or grinding on me.

67. Women don’t like the idea of men having women touch or grind on them,

    You’re in a monogamous relationship. Your girlfriend wants to go to a dance club where she will touch and grind on other, attractive men and they will do the same for her.

    You’re o.k. with this, right?

    Or, only if money exchanges hands? What if they buy each other drinks first? Is that good enough? Or does it need to be cash?

    Look. The fact of the matter is: different relationships with different people have different rules and boundaries. (For instance, I don’t care what other men do. But in my monogamous relationship, the only grinding that’s going on should be with me. Those are the rules/boundaries. If he didn’t like them, he’s free to leave.)

    Relationships, rules, and cheating are not a “one-size fits all” product.

    Some women don’t like the idea of strip clubs. Some are fine with strip clubs but think lap-dances are breaking the rules of the relationship. Some women think lap-dances are fine. Etc. Etc. Ad nauseum.

    If going to strip clubs is something you like to do, you should bring that up when you first start dating your partner. If it’s something you never thought about but the situation arises (hopefully *not* right before a wedding but some people seem to think of it as an entitlement), you should bring that up with your partner and have a discussion.

    so they get overly emotional to make the man feel guilty about going.

    To paraphrase what Heather said: people’s emotions don’t exist simply to inconvenience or manipulate you.

    Are some people purposefully emotionally manipulative? Yes, it happens.

    But to write a whole group of people off as such is bull.

68. Well, Jill, that kind of ordering around from the womenfolk is “disrespectful” and “overly emotional.” You should, instead, make you position known without showing any upsetting lady-feelings, and then graciously accept the position of your man—or, walk out that open door, baby.

    Jill: …really? If I tell my partner “You are not allowed to sleep with other people,” I’m a controlling asshole?

69. @sangetencre: It’s not people’s emotions that is the problem. Its how a person reacts to that emotion.

    Just taking a shot in the dark, but I would assume a woman would feel anger and jealously for their partner going to a strip club. Those emotions are perfectly legitimate. What isn’t is how they respond because of those emotions. Like I said earlier, there is a difference between saying “I feel uncomfortable with you going to a strip club” and “You are NOT going to a strip club”. The first is expressing your emotions in a reasonable, calm and collected way. The second is not.

    @Chava: I don’t know if your joking around with that statement or not…but ya.

    You (not you personally, metaphorically speaking) can’t control people and try and boss them around. If you enter into a monogamous relationship, then sleeping around has already been deemed inappropriate behavior. Even still, someone can cheat on you anyways. I can tell my girlfriend not to cheat until I am blue in the face…I have no control over her or her actions. I just have to give her the benefit of the doubt and if she does cheat on me, act accordingly (break up, divorce, move out, etc…).

    I never understood men that cling to women. I just want to say “Dude, there are 3 billion of them on the planet…go find another one”. But no, these guys get all clingy and start trying to control womens actions…It wont work, so why bother. Which is why I think the same thing when women are dealing with men…you can’t control us, so don’t waste the energy.

70. Jill: Yes, totally. However! If you haven’t discussed all the minutia, I think it’s probably safe to assume that unless otherwise specified, fucking a sex worker the night before your wedding is cheating. In my past few relationships, I haven’t said to my boyfriend, “Ok, no more paying people for sex!” We have basically just said, “So uh, we’re like boyfriend-girlfriend now, right?” and I don’t think it’s totally out there to assume that for most people, unless otherwise discussed, being boyfriend/girlfriend means your genitals don’t get to touch anyone else’s genitals. Again, people totally have alternate set-ups and that’s great, but I don’t have a lot of patience for the “It wasn’t cheating because my girlfriend never said I COULDN’T fuck other people!” excuse.

    This is what I find interesting about this whole debate. I’d say many, if not most, couples don’t sit down and specify the minutae of what counts as “cheating,” even though it’s probably a good idea. It’s just sort of assumed that both parties, at least within a certain social context, understand what monogamy means. And currently, the lowest common denominator of that is sexual exclusivity in terms of “not having other people physically bring you to orgasm.” Obviously there are some couples who ARE cool with that, but the point is that it generally has to be explicitly spelled out because it’s different than the prevailing social norm.

    I think the reason this debate (and I’ve seen/heard versions of it in MANY other places) comes up is because there isn’t really any common baseline standard for whether or not certain “less than sex” behaviors count as cheating. I know some people who would freak out if their significant other was flirting with someone else at a party, even if it never got beyond that. I know some who wouldn’t be cool with their partner looking at porn. I know some who wouldn’t be cool with their partner going to strip clubs. I know some who’d be okay with it as long as they weren’t getting lap dances and a “look but don’t touch” policy was strictly adhered to. I also know people who would be pretty much unfazed by all those things. “Cheating” in the context of a moral lineage that has evolved from biblical/pre-biblical and ancient Greek precedents can technically mean just thinking about somebody else you find hot (think of Jimmy Carter talking about “lusting in his heart” – though for obvious reasons most couples don’t get that restrictive, because it’s REALLY hard for most non-asexual people to adhere to). Some people are cool with anything short of actual sex. Others have a real problem with anything that puts any sexual emphasis on anyone other than a partner.

    None of those positions are ipso facto unreasonable, but obviously there’s no generally accepted common standard or this thread wouldn’t be so full of heated comments. If you think you ought to be able to go to a strip club from time to time without it being “cheating,” then fine, but talk to your partner about it and make sure that they’re cool with it too, or at least that it doesn’t upset them so much as to do serious damage to your relationship. After all, let’s be honest, being in a relationship sometimes means accepting that your partner will do things on occasion that you’re maybe not thrilled about. And if it’s going to be a real problem, either adjust your own expectations or find somebody else to date. Wanting a partner who’s definition of monogamy is pretty much the same as yours doesn’t make you a jerk, whether you’re the one with the more restrictive definition or the less restrictive one.

    Lying, though, does. Being manipulative, though, does. Being disrespectful of your partners desires but still expecting them to be a doting boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife, though, does. Takeaway: In an age when sexual stimuli are as varied as they are ubiquitous, it’s important to explicitly communicate, because everyone’s baseline assumptions are a bit different.

71. Guh, meant prima facie unreasonable. Stupid trying-to-use-languages-that-I-don’t-actually-speak.

72. My question is “Why is she getting worked up?” I don’t really care that she is worked up, I want to get to the underlining reason for it. Most of the time it’s control. Women don’t like the idea of men having women touch or grind on them, so they get overly emotional to make the man feel guilty about going. From my POV, its pure manipulation.

    If my girlfriend ever pulled something like this, I wouldn’t yell or scream or argue…I would just point to the door and say “You are free to leave if you want”.

    Anyone else get a nice loud EMOTIONAL ABUSER siren off this? She’s hysterical. Her emotions are just manipulation. If she tries to stand up for herself, he’d kick her out. And, if she wanted to do exactly what he’s claiming is totally not a bad thing for him to do, he’d be upset.

    Yep, quite the misogynistic, psuedo-ally prize.

73. Jill: Hmmm. This isn’t necessarily my perspective, but just as a point, is it so difficult to say that you support someone’s work and source of income and their rights to do that work, but you still think some large percentage of the clientele sucks? I mean, a lot of people would say that about my job, or about bankers, or about employees at the Ed Hardy store.

    Yep. Because: (a) the stereotype that the clients of sex workers suck is a stereotype, and demonstrably not true in the cases of many sex workers, and (b) because saying that people who use a bank suck is not commonly used to delegitamize the work of bankers, in the way that saying that clients of sex workers suck is used to undermine sex workers, and (c) because part of supporting sex workers is supporting our lives, supporting the fact that many of us don’t regret doing sex work, that this is our choice and what we want to be doing, that this is our work etc, and dismissing our clients as asshats undermines that.

    I like a lot of my clients. The stereotype that they suck pisses me off.

74. Also, sorry, but when people say that about Ed Hardy, for example, they are (regardless of whether I think it’s justified) making a negative judgement about people who wear a certain fashion, NOT judging an entire industry of people in a context in which those people lack legal and human rights. NOT the same thing. Not even close.

75. sophonisba:

    Why would you expect anyone to say such a thing?Why would I or should I “support your work” any more than I support the work of telemarketers, collections agents, “communications” professors, PR consultants, and anyone else whose human dignity and right to fair and safe workplaces are unquestionable but whose actual work is somewhere between obnoxious and unpleasant?

    I don’t want your job outlawed, I don’t want you harassed or treated with contempt, I want you paid a fair wage with health benefits and I want you unionized if you care to be.You are entitled to all those things.You are not entitled to have random people think your job is neat and “support” it, whatever that may mean.

    At least you’re honest about it. What’s disingenous to me is when people claim to support sex workers, but then are down on the work that makes us our money. What do these people think makes us sex workers? It sure isn’t the hip red umbrella, I’ll tell you that.

    That said, your blanket condemnation of the work is something I find pretty ill informed, and I wish that there was less of this in feminism in general. You know, cars spray pollution all over the place. Maybe you should go tell United Auto Workers that you support their right to collective bargaining, but are essentially against their jobs, and see how they take it.

    1. At least you’re honest about it. What’s disingenous to me is when people claim to support sex workers, but then are down on the work that makes us our money. What do these people think makes us sex workers? It sure isn’t the hip red umbrella, I’ll tell you that.

       I’m not sure that’s fair. I mean, I personally oppose factory farm food production. I still support the rights of the people who work in slaughterhouses and on massive farms; I think they should have better protections and be better treated. To use your UAW example, I personally think that the auto industry is totally fucked up — they push back on emissions standards and rely on American gas subsidies to create gas-guzzling monster vehicles. I think that is really fucking bad! I also think that workers should have collective bargaining rights, and I hope auto workers are able to maintain their jobs in a struggling economy.

       You can object to problematic aspects of an industry without thinking that the people who work in that industry are terrible.

76. @ Jill, fair enough. Perhaps my example was off. To return to the specific example of sex work, tho, I still experience people who want me to have for example, collective bargaining rights, but still think my work is something like obnoxious and evil (can’t believe that comment wasn’t called out, but whatevs) to be completely patronizing, and I’m not convinced the sex workers rights movement needs them.

    What we need is for people to dissemble their stereotypes about sex workers. One of these stereotypes is that our clients are universally, or even mostly, bad and evil. This stereotype is not helpful to us and must stop.

77. Brandon: I believe I said “overly emotional”. Even still, that doesn’t mean “crazy, hysterical bitches”…that’s just hyperbole.

    HYPERBOLE? On the INTERNET???

    Perish the thought, dreamboat!

78. Also, just to point out where I feel this gets disingenous: what are the “problematic aspects of the industry”? When did the discussion go from “clients of sex workers can be a problem”, which I think is part of a problematic discourse anyway, to “problematic aspects” of sex work?

    My experience, and it’s just my experience but for what its worth, is that this conflation happens all the time in feminist circles no matter how much people swear up down and sideways that they are too different thoughts and they won’t conflate. I think that this stems from a deep discomfort with what sex workers do. Until people get over that discomfort, or at least confront it, its hard for me as a sex worker to trust their claims to be allies.

    1. Also, just to point out where I feel this gets disingenous: what are the “problematic aspects of the industry”? When did the discussion go from “clients of sex workers can be a problem”, which I think is part of a problematic discourse anyway, to “problematic aspects” of sex work?

       My experience, and it’s just my experience but for what its worth, is that this conflation happens all the time in feminist circles no matter how much people swear up down and sideways that they are too different thoughts and they won’t conflate. I think that this stems from a deep discomfort with what sex workers do. Until people get over that discomfort, or at least confront it, its hard for me as a sex worker to trust their claims to be allies.

       I think you’re right that part of it does stem from a discomfort with what sex workers do. I will admit that’s part of my discomfort. I don’t think that exchanging money for sex is inherently bad or wrong or immoral; I do think, in a patriarchal world, it has all sorts of other baggage, and the way it plays out is often bad. I think culturally we do treat women as a sex class, and I do have an issue with that. In a totally gender-egalitarian society, would sex work exist? I have no idea. I think probably. But I think it would look very different.

       So I’m not going to sit here and deny that some of my discomfort does come from sex work itself. But as for the problematic aspects of the industry, they are multitudinous. Yes, many women choose sex work freely, among a range of other options, and like their jobs. But many other women are forced or coerced into it. Many girls and boys are, too. In the hazier middle ground are the folks who choose it, but would take nearly any other option with comparable pay. There are the abuses that sex workers suffer at the hands of clients who know they can beat, rape and even kill sex workers because cops don’t care. Disproportionate numbers of homeless (and especially homeless female, trans and gay youth) are sex workers, often in the most dangerous conditions. Sex trafficking is a huge international industry that is making some very bad people very rich. Etc etc. None of that means “sex work is evil.” It does mean that it’s a really problematic industry. Some of those problems would obviously be fixed by giving sex workers more rights (or even basic rights!). But some of those issues also stem from cultural misogyny and won’t be fixed by legalization. (Which isn’t an argument against legalization, obviously). So I don’t think, given the complexities of sex work, that it’s totally out there to look askance at men who are the clients of sex workers. Yes, there are lots of men who are able to visit the most relatively privileged sex workers and pay them a fair amount of money and don’t abuse them. But there are also lots of men who seek out children, or who get off on the whole “she’s not really here voluntarily” thing. I suspect there are even more men who just don’t know whether the woman in question is there voluntarily and don’t care and don’t make any real effort to find out, because they don’t have to care. I do think that’s fucked up.

       Not to strain the food industry analogy too far, but I think that industry has some parallels — I say it’s a “problematic industry,” but obviously there are a lot of people who are small-time farmers and ranchers who are paid fair wages, who aren’t exploited because of their immigration status, whose physical health isn’t destroyed by their work, and who aren’t doing the kind of soul-crushing work that involves torturing animals. At the same time, there are an awful lot of folks who aren’t paid fair wages, who are exploited because of their immigration status, whose physical health is destroyed by their work, and who are doing soul-crushing work that involves torturing animals.

       I mean, I see what you’re saying. I guess I just feel like this convo is centering on a fairly narrow aspect of the sex industry, and I feel like asking people to support the entire clientele of a profession just because the profession is maligned is not particularly fair or helpful.

79. This is probably my fault. I wasn’t specific enough before when I said this:

    Women who blame sex workers for the fact that their partners are assholes will receive very little sympathy from me.

    I should have said:

    Men who patronize sex workers even though their partners consider it cheating are assholes, and deserve all of the blame for their behavior. The sex workers in question deserve none, and women who blame sex workers instead of their partners will receive very little sympathy from me.

    Just as a reminder, this is the kind of statement that I was responding to (one of the comments from the Hairpin piece that Jill linked):

    After a bajillion fights, my husband’s bachelor party was stripper-free, but I lost more than sleep over it. I lost 8 pounds because I couldn’t eat – so, thanks strippers! At least I looked good at the wedding! Get a job that doesn’t involve teaching men that women are sex toys.

    My argument is that the existence of sex work really isn’t to blame for the fact that the commenter in question was upset over her partner’s behavior. In other words, I’m arguing that sex work is not “obnoxious and evil” (to use your phrasing).

    I don’t need to proffer any particular opinion of all men who patronize sex workers in order for the above to be true. I’m referring to a very specific subset of Hypothetical Sex Worker’s Clients. Maybe none of your clients are part of this subset, in which case, great– I’m glad your clients are good people.

80. I understand the need to fight against stereotypes about sex workers and their clients, but “not liking” is not the same as “stereotyping”. There are plenty of people, myself among them, who understand that sex workers and their clients come in a variety of types and have a variety of different interactions. That doesn’t mean that we have to like most or any of the work you do.

    You’re entitled to personally reject our support for the rights of sex workers, but I think the movement as a whole should probably not take that stance. Think about, for example, pro-choicers who personally believe that abortion is wrong–that’s not necessarily a group that the pro-choice movement can afford to reject. Nor should it want to. There’s a lot to be said for supporting the personhood and safety and legality of people and things that you personally do not like but that you recognize other people should have the right to enjoy if that’s their thing.

81. Whoops, forgot to make it clear that I was addressing Nia (though I’m sure people have figured that out).

82. Esti:
    There are plenty of people, myself among them, who understand that sex workers and their clients come in a variety of types and have a variety of different interactions.That doesn’t mean that we have to like most or any of the work you do.

    Yeah, just to be clear, this is absolutely not my position. There’s nothing particularly distasteful or discomfiting about sex work, in my opinion. It’s just work. Some men cause harm to their partners by patronizing sex workers, yes, but some people also drink to excess and act irresponsibly because of it– doesn’t mean I blame bartenders for selling alcohol.

83. Azalea:
    Those guys aren’t jerks they simply aren’t the right man for the type of woman who gets really really bothered by bachelor’s parties.

    So close, yet so far. Follow me one step further:

    ….AND if he insists on his right to do it even if it makes her really, really uncomfortable, even highly stressed and depressed, and he knows this, and he dismisses her feelings, he is a jerk. If he does it anyway and lies about it, he is a jerk and a coward. I don’t know why I expect you to pick up on it this time if you didn’t get it when it was clearly spelled out in the original post, but a boy can dream.

    Apparently I can’t quote multiple times so I’ll just add my replies to other commenters in plain text:

    @Brandon #62

    “I never said crazy bitches. You are making it sound like I am trying to put women down, when I am not.”

    That is hilarious after ‘she is usually trying to control him’, ‘she gets all emotional to manipulate him’, ‘I see this as pure manipulation’, ‘marriage is oppressive to men’ and like every other anti-woman trope that you could possibly reference regarding this topic. No, you are truly a feminist gem. I’m sure the ladies at the strip club and the brothel love you for that.

    “Equal pay, equal time off, equal rights, pro-choice, non-controlling…hell, I seem like a feminists dream boyfriend since I pretty much agree with 80%+ of feminist beliefs.”

    You certainly have a high opinion of yourself, don’t you?

    @Josh #28

    “If you and your partner have discussed it and come to an agreement that casting glances at other people on the bus constitutes cheating, then that is cheating (and good luck with your relationship).”

    Ugh, this reminds me of a couple I knew who had this exact rule in a relationship. They weren’t even allowed to look at or think about other people in that way. Surprise, it was an abusive relationship. Of course, they called it “traditional values”.

    @Ali #14

    “Not one of my male friends, or brothers, have done this.”

    You mean, not one of your male friends, or brothers, have done this and told you about it. Sorry, but this strikes me as analogous to the tighty-righties who think they don’t know any LGBTQ people (or that nobody in their religion could possibly have LGBTQ kids).

84. “Not to strain the food industry analogy too far, but I think that industry has some parallels — I say it’s a “problematic industry,” but obviously there are a lot of people who are small-time farmers and ranchers who are paid fair wages, who aren’t exploited because of their immigration status, whose physical health isn’t destroyed by their work, and who aren’t doing the kind of soul-crushing work that involves torturing animals. At the same time, there are an awful lot of folks who aren’t paid fair wages, who are exploited because of their immigration status, whose physical health is destroyed by their work, and who are doing soul-crushing work that involves torturing animals. ”

    OK, but it doesn’t follow that farming is bad, only that factory farming is bad. It seems like what you’re saying with this analogy is that the MAJORITY of sex work is highly problematic in terms of the conditions of labor–that the “happy hooker” is a myth and/or a share of the workforce that is relatively small.

    I don’t think anyone was asking “people to support the entire cliente of a profession.” Merely to highlight the problems with the “hate the sin, love the sinner” argument that gets propogated in feminist circles. You don’t have to love all men who pay for sex ever. I live in an area right now riddled with trafficked women and children (18eme, Paris), and I absolutely revile the men who come here for that.

    But trafficking !=sex work, it isn’t a “profession,” and I just don’t agree that visiting a strip club puts you anywhere in the same country of the men who come to my neighborhood to pay for trafficked West African teenagers. I don’t think that by doing one thing, you’re contributing to the other.

    To push the farm analogy–are people who buy poultry, period, regardless of its provenance or sustainability, contributing to a problematic industry and thus worthy of suspicion?

    1. OK, but it doesn’t follow that farming is bad, only that factory farming is bad. It seems like what you’re saying with this analogy is that the MAJORITY of sex work is highly problematic in terms of the conditions of labor–that the “happy hooker” is a myth and/or a share of the workforce that is relatively small.

       I don’t think the “happy hooker” is a myth, but I do suspect that large numbers of sex workers are probably not working in great conditions and are probably not in their ideal jobs (like a lot of workers who do manual labor for low wages). That doesn’t mean that sex work is bad; it certainly does mean that there need to be more rights for sex workers. But I get frustrated with these online conversations in large part because the most oppressed voices just aren’t being heard, and there’s this weird argument that you’re either for sex workers’ rights and therefore are never critical of the sex industry, OR you’re of the industry and therefore totally against the basic rights of sex workers.

       But trafficking !=sex work, it isn’t a “profession,” and I just don’t agree that visiting a strip club puts you anywhere in the same country of the men who come to my neighborhood to pay for trafficked West African teenagers. I don’t think that by doing one thing, you’re contributing to the other.

       Sure. I agree that visiting a strip club and paying for trafficked teenagers are two totally different things. But the problem is, there isn’t actually a hard and fast line between trafficking or coerced sex work and sex work as a profession. It isn’t always obvious which is which. Degrees of coercion vary. So personally? I am skeptical of any man who would pay for sex (which again is different from paying to see a naked person, in my opinion). There is just too much cultural baggage there, when it comes to misogyny and sexual exploitation, for me to give that guy the benefit of the doubt. Does that mean that all men who pay women for sex are evil scumbags? No, I don’t think that. But I do think it’s awfully difficult to not be a misogynist and still justify hiring a woman for sex.

       To push the farm analogy–are people who buy poultry, period, regardless of its provenance or sustainability, contributing to a problematic industry and thus worthy of suspicion?

       I don’t think so. But I promise there are some animal rights activists who do. And I do think that people who buy poultry without looking into its provenance or sustainability because they just don’t care to do absolutely contribute to a problematic industry (I’ve been one of them).

85. Rare Vos: Anyone else get a nice loud EMOTIONAL ABUSER siren off this?She’s hysterical. Her emotions are just manipulation.If she tries to stand up for herself, he’d kick her out. And, if she wanted to do exactly what he’s claiming is totally not a bad thing for him to do, he’d be upset.

    Yep, quite the misogynistic, psuedo-ally prize.

    @Rare Vos: I love (I mean…find hysterically funny) how I am now an emotional abuser because I don’t condone my girlfriend yelling and screaming at me. (not that she does…it’s a hypothetical)

    I tolerate a lot of things, but yelling and screaming are not one of them. If she does decide to yell and scream, I will cut her off and ask her to leave. If she wants to talk like an adult, I am all for it…but I will be damned if I will just let her verbally attack me.

    Any self-respecting man would behave in that manner. No one male or female should have someone screaming at them.

    P.S She has her own place so “can you leave” means “go back to your house”. So don’t act like I am kicking her on to the streets.

    Again…this is hypothetical. So far my girl and I get along quite well.

86. Also, that brings up a question for you Rare Vos. If hitting a woman is abuse (and it clearly is) and asking her to leave is also abuse in your mind…what isn’t abuse in that scenario? Do I have to just stand there and have her yell at me for it NOT to constitute abuse?

    I don’t see that happening. I have enough self-respect to not let that happen.

87. Oh man, as a feminist, can I just say that my dream boyfriend totally infantilizes me when he’s managed to piss me off? I’m all wet just thinking about it.

88. So, a pattern of screaming in a relationship is Not Ok. And if raised voices are a dealbreaker for you because of whatever, ok.

    But you might want to take a look at how your wording on this thread plays into a whole host of misogynist/infantilizing stereotypes. Women are used to being called “controlling,” “overly emotional,” “manipulative” people who use our lady-wiles to manipulate men. Men who, if they are Manly Men worth of “respect” from women, will Not Tolerate such behavior, but rather boot the offending ass out the door…or, sometimes, other, less savory things.

    So when you start pulling out all those lovely words and descriptions of/about women, it raises a whole host of red flags. Not to mention that the idea “all emotions in a relationship must be expressed rationally always or else” is really…I don’t know, naive? Emotions aren’t always rational, sometimes people lose their temper, sometimes fights happen. We aren’t Vulcans.

    Brandon:
    Also, that brings up a question for you Rare Vos. If hitting a woman is abuse (and it clearly is) and asking her to leave is also abuse in your mind…what isn’t abuse in that scenario? Do I have to just stand there and have her yell at me for it NOT to constitute abuse?

    I don’t see that happening. I have enough self-respect to not let that happen.

89. I love this. So I expect my girlfriend to behave as a rational adult and I am infantilizing her. If that isn’t a boat load of crap, I don’t know what is.

    Yes, people aren’t vulcans. But I expect a certain amount of composure when talking to her. There is a difference between slightly raising your voice and all out screaming.

    Emotions are rarely rational…but people can control themselves from lashing out at others. People have the capacity to control themselves. I don’t lash out at her…I expect the same in return.

    WTF is a “lady-wiles”?

    Let’s get one thing straight…certain people are controlling, overly emotional and manipulative. This isn’t just a “woman” issue…it’s a “human” issue. I expect a man to not yell and scream in my face. I think it is only fair that I treat women equally and expect the same from them. I don’t yell…you don’t yell. It’s simple, not misogynistic or man hating.

90. 101 Attempt…Fail.
    *facepalms*

    Brandon:
    I love this. So I expect my girlfriend to behave as a rational adult and I am infantilizing her. If that isn’t a boat load of crap, I don’t know what is.

    Yes, people aren’t vulcans. But I expect a certain amount of composure when talking to her. There is a difference between slightly raising your voice and all out screaming.

    Emotions are rarely rational…but people can control themselves from lashing out at others. People have the capacity to control themselves. I don’t lash out at her…I expect the same in return.

    WTF is a “lady-wiles”?

    Let’s get one thing straight…certain people are controlling, overly emotional and manipulative. This isn’t just a “woman” issue…it’s a “human” issue. I expect a man to not yell and scream in my face. I think it is only fair that I treat women equally and expect the same from them. I don’t yell…you don’t yell. It’s simple, not misogynistic or man hating.

91. Brandon: I love this. So I expect my girlfriend to behave as a rational adult and I am infantilizing her. If that isn’t a boat load of crap, I don’t know what is.

    OMG, my other hot button! Willful misreading! Your girlfriend is SO LUCKY.

92. Man, I must be a misogynist too. I also would tell me girlfriend t leave if she started yelling and sceaming at me for no reason.

93. @David

    Yeah, gender-inclusive pre-wedding parties are really fun! The one I went to involved eating and drinking at a nice restaurant, wandering around the Mall of America, and drinking and bowling at this cool lazer-light lit bowling alley/bar. They even arranged for under-21 sober drivers to take the rest of us home. Everyone had a great time. It wasn’t about mourning the loss of their free single days but about celebrating the fact that our two friends were really happy and decided to spend the rest of their lives together. I’ve really wanted to do it that way ever since!

94. Stephanie: And if women were the clown class, you might have something which would at least be pulled into the gravitational orbit of a good point.

    Alas.

    SDDJKFSDJKLASDSDHFAL clown class.

95. I love strippers! I also love bitches, and sluts. I am at least one of those three things.

    That said, no fucking way my hypothetical fiance is going to have strippers at the bachelor party. Because I am a bitch. (Damn, gave it away.) He will be the type to not even want strippers.

    *nods*

    1. I love strippers! I also love bitches, and sluts. I am at least one of those three things.

       Yay I am two of those three things! And maybe would have been the third if I had more self confidence / nicer tits.

96. Brandon – I agree that screaming in someone’s face is unacceptable behaviour in a relationship (or really, in any situation). But who here is talking about women screaming in their boyfriend’s face other than you? I don’t understand where that came from.

97. Unthread several people, including one stripper said sex rarely happens at strip clubs. I hate to disagree but that really depends on the city, the type of club or service (if outcalls), and the type of client base (local or out of towner).

    Never been a stripper myself. My sister was. She danced in over 10 states. She was a manger for one of the largest owner in the U.S. She went in to evaluate everything from “trucker titty bars” to high-end Vegas joint. Her opinon, I trust.

    Her take on this issue: across the U.S, about 40-50% of clubs have at least 2-3 “girls” who will provide extras. Typically only hand jobs and blow jobs. But some will do anything is paid enough. Most club managers will tolerate this for kickbacks. girl gets caught by owner or cops, they throw her to the wolves. About 10% of clubs totally ban selling extras and will kick women out if they catch them trying to do this. Hence, “no sex in the Champagne room” at higher end places trying to be classy. About 10-15% of clubs are open fronts for prostitution.

    In short, as will sex work in general, when you try to make it black and white, it doesn’t hold up. Some strippers will have sex with clients, some won’t. I don’t think any of us can state what the percentage is. All we know is between never and always.

    DH isn’t into paying a lot of money to watch women he can’t fuck take their clothes off. If he was, I’d feel very differently if he were going to a club I know as zero tolerance than one that I wasn’t sure of or knew to be a front. Not bc I’m worried he’d pay for it, but because of how the women are treated and the danger to all parties.

98. Two random thoughts…

    Nia, just because your clients arent bad and evil doesn’t mean they can’t do bad acts. Good people do evil things. There are also evil people who do good acts. Hitler treated Eva Braun and his inner circle better than Ghandi treated his family…That doesn’t make Hitler a better person. Also, it is entirely possible for you to be a good person engaged in a neutral act in sex work but for your client to be a bad person doing something with bad intent and worse consequences. You dont know their intent or the ripple effect os their choices and actions. it’s not your job to know unless you are engaged in the type of sex work where you have very personal relationships with them. One offs or sex only has a very different moral landscape than being a part of a relationship of which sex is the primary, but not only part. The moral implications on the sex worker vary with how engaged she is with the man beyond the sex act. If it’s just sex, there is none. If it goes beyond sex, then there are implications for both parties.

    The moral blameworthiness of a man paying for sex is not always the same. It’s not always right, always wrong, or always value neutral. It’s just not. If he’s single and hurting no one emotionally, I thing it can be very positive or neutral if done correctly. If he’s in a relationship and he’s doing this to either hurt his wife or to avoid dealing with things and he’s risky, it’s very clearly vile. And don’t tell me male clients don’t do the passive-aggressive narcissistic shit sometimes. I’ve known too many sex workers to believe they are all just sex-starved men.

    And any sex worker who has unprotected sex with a man does have some moral culpability if that man is having unprotected sex with a woman or man who thinks he is faithful. As anyone, regardless of being paid or not, has culpability if they knowingly have sex with someone they know to be coupled and they aren’t as safe as humanly possible.

    I’m sure you are safe, but not all sex workers are. There are some who will go condomless for the right price.

    FWIW, you seem frustrated by people wanting to support you yet judging what you do. They aren’t judging yo personally, but sex workers as a whole…and there are many uncontientious sex workers out there as there are many contentious ones. So, please, try and realize the best approach is to get them to realize that not all sex work is the same.

    Btw, I once lived above a brothel in a country where sex work is legal and heavily regulated. I would talk to the women sometimes and they’d tell me how good their boss was, but the one down the street tried to pressure “the girls” into servicing clients without condoms…including anal. Even in a country where it’s “safe and legal”, it’s not always safe for the women there.

    Someone else also mad the analogy of not blaming the bartender. Um, legally speaking, we do blame bartenders for serving visibly drunk people, particularly when they subsequently hurt others. The degree of blame we put on them varies from state to state. Some states shield taverns…other make them culpable for the acts of their clients. (civilly, not criminally) Some states will shut a place down if they establishment doesn’t regulate the clients. Some countries also blame them for serving known alcoholics. They can’t serve minors or the mentally impaired. It’s not as if we say all patron behavior is on the patron and the bar has no culpability ever.

99. Question for the sex workers on the thread. Do you view your job as positive socially and morally, neutral socially and morally, or negative socially and morally?

    As a lawyer, I think it depends on the type of lawyer. Some are great (advocates for the oppressed), some are evil whores to vile men, but the mass are doing a job.

    Based on the women I’ve known who were strippers or prostitutes (their term, not mine), it seems like most thought it morally neutral. Few thought it a great thing and essential public service. (one once told me “better me than a mistress. I won’t get pregnant and blackmail him” regarding her famous rich client) A few thought the industry as a whole bad, but themselves ok. Only ones I’ve known who would say it’s all negative were forced or on a bad Chicago or LA corner.

100. Two random thoughts…
     Nia, just because your clients arent bad and evil doesn’t mean they can’t do bad acts.Good people do evil things.There are also evil people who do good acts.Hitler treated Eva Braun and his inner circle better than Ghandi treated his family…That doesn’t make Hitler a better person.

     OK, 1) Godwin’s Law, and 2) So…patronizing Nia is bad like Nazis but he treats her well (a good act) despite of his overall moral decrepitude? Huh? We should be like Ghandi and…be mean to sex workers and nice to everyone else? This analogy, it worketh not.

     One offs or sex only has a very different moral landscape than being a part of a relationship of which sex is the primary, but not only part. The moral implications on the sex worker vary with how engaged she is with the man beyond the sex act.If it’s just sex, there is none.If it goes beyond sex, then there are implications for both parties.

     So…if you’re emotionally engaged with your clients beyond sex, you’re morally culpable? What? It’s only OK if you feel nothing?

     FWIW, you seem frustrated by people wanting to support you yet judging what you do.They aren’t judging you personally, but sex workers as a whole…and there are as many uncontientious sex workers out there as there are many contentious ones.So, please, try and realize the best approach is to get them to realize that not all sex work is the same.

     If they’re juding sex workers as a whole, and not all sex workers are “unconscientious,” shouldn’t they, I don’t know, NOT see hookers as generally culpable WITHOUT the onus being on the sex worker to educate them?

     Btw, I once lived above a brothel in a country where sex work is legal and heavily regulated.I would talk to the women sometimes and they’d tell me how good their boss was, but the one down the street tried to pressure “the girls” into servicing clients without condoms…including anal.Even in a country where it’s “safe and legal”, it’s not always safe for the women there.

     Um, yeah. And there are nail salons in New York where women breathe in noxious chemicals all day, and factories where workers are encouraged to disregard standard hygeine practices in favor of overall costs. Any legal industry has its black market.

     Someone else also mad the analogy of not blaming the bartender.Um, legally speaking, we do blame bartenders for serving visibly drunk people, particularly when they subsequently hurt others. The degree of blame we put on them varies from state to state.Some states shield taverns…other make them culpable for the acts of their clients.(civilly, not criminally) Some states will shut a place down if they establishment doesn’t regulate the clients.Some countries also blame them for serving known alcoholics.They can’t serve minors or the mentally impaired.It’s not as if we say all patron behavior is on the patron and the bar has no culpability ever.

     So a man who wants sex can’t help himself? Like a drunk person? And the duty is on the woman to turn him down unless she can somehow magically determine (by your criteria) that he is not married, or in a relationship, or “passive agressive”? That sounds like a great way to make a living.

     And don’t tell me male clients don’t do the passive-aggressive narcissistic shit sometimes. I’ve known too many sex workers to believe they are all just sex-starved men.

     So…it’s only OK to pay someone for sex if you’re gagging for it? Why is it better to consume an immoral product if you’re just extra desperate for it?

101. @ Jill
     Sure. I agree that visiting a strip club and paying for trafficked teenagers are two totally different things. But the problem is, there isn’t actually a hard and fast line between trafficking or coerced sex work and sex work as a profession. It isn’t always obvious which is which. Degrees of coercion vary.

     I think that’s a very good point, and one of the main reasons sex work in the US needs to be destigmatized, legal and regulated.

102. I love (I mean…find hysterically funny) how I am now an emotional abuser because I don’t condone my girlfriend yelling and screaming at me

     If hitting a woman is abuse (and it clearly is) and asking her to leave is also abuse in your mind…what isn’t abuse in that scenario?

     Look, you’ve already shown us you’re a douchey fauxgressive, so there’s really no point in straight up lying about what I said. We can, after all simply scroll back up to see what was actually said.
     Stop lying, or don’t bother.

     So I expect my girlfriend to behave as a rational adult and I am infantilizing her. If that isn’t a boat load of crap, I don’t know what is.

     It is a load of crap, cupcake, because no one said that. You’re now changing what your originally said, and pretending you meant something else because we saw straight through your I’m-totally-a-feminist facade. Once again: stop lying, or don’t bother.

     As Chava heroically tried to get through your bank vault think skull, your wording is misogynistic, your backpeddaling pathetic and you are clearly no ally. Either grow up and deal with the arguments actually being presented to you, or run along, cupcake.

103. chava: I think that’s a very good point, and one of the main reasons sex work in the US needs to be destigmatized, legal and regulated.

     I may not have anything to add here, but this is just such a very good point that I think it deserves to be quoted anyway.

104. I think what really bothered me most about the article was the title: “Everybody Calm Down: Nobody Wants to Have Sex With Your Fiancé Anyway” – given that most women are aware that strippers and/or sex workers don’t want to have sex with clients, per se, but do so for money. I’m all for demystifying, but how about not insulting the intelligence of their customers’ partners and their legitimate concerns?

105. Hey,

     I just stumbled across the blog and love it.

     And I totally agree with this post, this being the main reason: if he REALLY loves you, if he REALLY cares about you, and him visiting a strip bar is giving you so much stress and worry, HE WOULD SIMPLY NOT GO. Your peace of mind, your happiness, should FAR outweigh his desire to have strippers (on a stag night or at any time).

     First of all, whether he really likes strippers or not is not the point. Every relationship involves compromise and sacrifice. If something is not of the utmost importance to me (i.e it’s not ESSENTIAL to my long-term happiness) and it makes my partner really miserable, I will give it up. Because I care about his happiness too.

     So: if having visiting strippers is ESSENTIAL to your fiance’s happiness, you either have to a) accept it or b) break up.

     But my basic point is: what kind of guy NEEDS strippers to be happy in the long term? For almost all who do visit, it is a choice, just something they may WANT to do, not NEED to do. Therefore, if they are not willing to give it up for the happiness of their partner, they obviously don’t care about their partner THAT much.

106. Maybe it’s just the timing that’s off. The institution just hasn’t moved in time with changing relationships. Theoretically one might say that, if it must happen at all, the time would be right before starting exclusive monogamy, which has moved from perhaps a presumption of after the wedding to a good deal earlier.

     Then again, I’d be just as pleased to see the practice disbanded. The only bachelor party of which I ever approved was the one on *Cheers* when Diane decided to pop out of Sam’s cake herself.

107. Jill: …really? If I tell my partner “You are not allowed to sleep with other people,” I’m a controlling asshole?

     In a monogamous relationship it is understood by definition that you AGREE (not that you are told but that this is what you want an dnobody has to tell you in the first place) that you wll only have sex with that person. So, the obvious notwithstanding yes it would. If that sn’t something he agreed to when starting the relationship you can’t tell him to do and then get mad when he doesn’t. You can not force any adult to refrain from perfectly legal consensual activity with another adult, that is just all there is to it. If they break an agreement , like monogamy, yes they are jerks. But if he goes somewhere you dont want him to go and flip out on him for it, uh yeah who are you to TELL him or any other adult where to go and who to be around?

108. Moises: So close, yet so far. Follow me one step further:

     ….AND if he insists on his right to do it even if it makes her really, really uncomfortable, even highly stressed and depressed, and he knows this, and he dismisses her feelings, he is a jerk. If he does it anyway and lies about it, he is a jerk and a coward. I don’t know why I expect you to pick up on it this time if you didn’t get it when it was clearly spelled out in the original post, but a boy can dream.

     And where did I say he had a right to dismiss her feelings, unless you consider him leaving her dismissing her feelings. He should consider her feelngs, he should be try his best not to do anything wth HIMSELF that would cause HER angst, but if there is somethign he wants to do that is important to him and it would force her to stop eating and sleeping if he did it, then yeah he NEEDS to leave her they are incompatible. Not eating and not sleeping is an extreme reaction to someone doing something. My stance has been 1) they are both adults, you cant CONTROL an adult even if you lvoe them and want to be with them you cant control them 2) if it is SO important to her that HE doesnt do something that doing it could cause her such stress, depression et al then they ar ebetter off not beng together since he is the type of person that WANTS to do it. 3) They are way too many people in this world to be with someone who wants to do something that will make you lose your appetite and sleep and depress you to no end.

     If he does it and lies, obvously he is a liar, a coward, a jerk. If he does and stays with her knowing how she will react, he is a jerk. If he LEAVES her and does it he isn’t a jerk. They arent compatible and he recognized that she wasn’t the one for him and he certainly isn’t the one for her..

109. I sort of think being upset about a strip club trip at a bachelor party is an under the table way to engage in Slut Shaming. What a lot of women don’t get who haven’t visited a strip club with regularity is that your man is about twenty times less likely to get laid at a strip club than he is just going out drinking with his friends.

     With the exception of a few very small, very slimy, or very low brow clubs prostitution really doesn’t happen (or if it does, I’m a pretty bad mark, because I’ve been to dozens of strip clubs and I’ve never been offered anything “off the menu.”) These girls don’t need to prostitute themselves, we’re already throwing our money at them.

     It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to risk your job, your freedom, and your reproductive health when you can do four private dances in the same time period for twenty dollars a pop and then go up on stage for three minutes and pick up another twenty.

     You want to make sure your man is in a place where absolutely nobody is going to have intercourse with him, send him to the strip club.

     It’s like erotic babysitting for men.

110. Becky:
     Brandon – I agree that screaming in someone’s face is unacceptable behaviour in a relationship (or really, in any situation).But who here is talking about women screaming in their boyfriend’s face other than you?I don’t understand where that came from.

     I am not sure…but I don’t feel like going over 100 comments to find out where that conversation thread came from.

     Rare Vos: Look, you’ve already shown us you’re a douchey fauxgressive, so there’s really no point in straight up lying about what I said.We can, after all simply scroll back up to see what was actually said.
     Stop lying, or don’t bother.

     It is a load of crap, cupcake, because no one said that.You’re now changing what your originally said, and pretending you meant something else because we saw straight through your I’m-totally-a-feminist facade. Once again: stop lying, or don’t bother.

     As Chava heroically tried to get through your bank vault think skull, your wording is misogynistic, your backpeddaling pathetic and you are clearly no ally.Either grow up and deal with the arguments actually being presented to you, or run along, cupcake.

     I never said I was a progressive (I’m not). In fact I don’t really belong to any political party or ideology. I just said that I believe that women should get equal pay for equal work, that I was pro-choice and a few other ideas that are “feminist-approved”. I also never said I was a feminist. I just said that unlike a lot of men, I have more pro-feminist beliefs on average.

     Misogynistic, backpedaling? Ya…I don’t think so. You said:

     “Anyone else get a nice loud EMOTIONAL ABUSER siren off this?She’s hysterical. Her emotions are just manipulation.If she tries to stand up for herself, he’d kick her out. And, if she wanted to do exactly what he’s claiming is totally not a bad thing for him to do, he’d be upset. ”

     What I got from that was, if I didn’t tolerate her yelling at me, I am some emotional abuser who would kick her out of my place.

     So if not allowing her to yell at me is emotional abuse…then what would you say is the proper response to that scenario? You never really answered it, you just said I was a misogynistic back-peddler. So you lowered yourself to name calling while I was expecting a response to my question.

     I also don’t see me back-peddling. My viewpoint is still the same. I was only trying to write in a way for you to understand my POV. Commenters kept taking what I said out of context so I was trying to clarify. I will try and be as blunt as I can:

     1) Marriage is slavery for men and men shouldn’t get married.
     2) I do not tolerate ANYONE. my girlfriend included from yelling/screaming/throwing things/etc… at me. Anything less is a lack of self-respect. I will either leave or ask them to leave.
     3) My girlfriend has no problems with how I treat her.
     4) Women should be treated as equals. My girlfriend is not above or below me…I treat her well, she treats me well.
     5) Unless men are in an exclusive relationship…women should NOT get mad that men are sleeping with multiple women. We are not jerks because we like varied sexual partners.

     I can’t make it clearer than that. If your gay, bi or trans, just do some simple word substitution to replace your partners gender with the one that applies to you.

111. Mawwiage is slaverrrrry! (for MEN). Because MEN like varied sexual partners!

     And you don’t get why you’re setting people off around here.

     Brandon: I am not sure…but I don’t feel like going over 100 comments to find out where that conversation thread came from.

     I never said I was a progressive (I’m not). In fact I don’t really belong to any political party or ideology. I just said that I believe that women should get equal pay for equal work, that I was pro-choice and a few other ideas that are “feminist-approved”. I also never said I was a feminist. I just said that unlike a lot of men, I have more pro-feminist beliefs on average.

     Misogynistic, backpedaling? Ya…I don’t think so. You said:

     “Anyone else get a nice loud EMOTIONAL ABUSER siren off this?She’s hysterical. Her emotions are just manipulation.If she tries to stand up for herself, he’d kick her out. And, if she wanted to do exactly what he’s claiming is totally not a bad thing for him to do, he’d be upset. ”

     What I got from that was, if I didn’t tolerate her yelling at me, I am some emotional abuser who would kick her out of my place.

     So if not allowing her to yell at me is emotional abuse…then what would you say is the proper response to that scenario? You never really answered it, you just said I was a misogynistic back-peddler. So you lowered yourself to name calling while I was expecting a response to my question.

     I also don’t see me back-peddling. My viewpoint is still the same. I was only trying to write in a way for you to understand my POV. Commenters kept taking what I said out of context so I was trying to clarify. I will try and be as blunt as I can:

     1) Marriage is slavery for men and men shouldn’t get married.
     2) I do not tolerate ANYONE. my girlfriend included from yelling/screaming/throwing things/etc… at me. Anything less is a lack of self-respect. I will either leave or ask them to leave.
     3) My girlfriend has no problems with how I treat her.
     4) Women should be treated as equals. My girlfriend is not above or below me…I treat her well, she treats me well.
     5) Unless men are in an exclusive relationship…women should NOT get mad that men are sleeping with multiple women. We are not jerks because we like varied sexual partners.

     I can’t make it clearer than that. If your gay, bi or trans, just do some simple word substitution to replace your partners gender with the one that applies to you.

112. And what is so bad about a healthy male sex drive? What is inherently immoral about sleeping with multiple women?

     I say as long as I don’t lie, manipulate or purposely deceive women…Its ok for me to have multiple partners. I tell them flat out and if they don’t like my lifestyle, they don’t have to be around me. How much more honest can you get?

     Actually, marriage isn’t slavery…divorce is. Marriage might be slavery for women too…but I am not a woman…so I can’t say.

     Since women have achieved a lot in the last 40 years, the need for marriage is slowly dying. We also aren’t as sexually repressed as we were culturally 40 years ago. Marriage is no longer the method for men to secure a sex partner. Women do not need a husband just as much as men don’t need a wife. So the whole concept of marriage is superfluous.

     Besides a few states giving tax breaks to married couples…I see absolutely no need for it. Men open themselves up to the legal system if a marriage goes bad (and most do). If I break up with my girlfriend, The Commonwealth of Massachusetts isn’t going to butt in.

113. My boyfriend and I already know what we’re doing for our parties: bachelor party vs. bachelorette party laser tag.

114. Late to the party but still. . .as an older feminist I guess I don’t understand the hesitance of younger women to hold their younger “sisters” who do sex work to account when the reality is that sex workers collaborate with men who hold the view that access to sexual use of others is their entitlement.

     Just look at the outcry of some of the guys who want their lap dances and their loving wives and GFs too. Ye old Madonna/Whore split. Yes, even in this day and age they feel it’s totally reasonable to expect to have a nice woman sitting at home who would never in a million years do with other men what they pay other women to do with them.

     It’s not slut shaming to hold people responsible for the consequences of their decision and actions. Women who sell sexual access to their bodies reinforce totally false, distorted and misogynistic notions about women and female sexuality.

     For which they are generously rewarded for demonstrating that there are still women in this modern age who ‘know their place.” There’s nothing groundbreaking, liberating, or progressive about acting out the World’s Oldest Profession.

     Unfortunately, even though they no doubt make a lot of money, we all “pay” as members of the “sex class” because how a group is perceived had much to do with how they are treated.

     If, for example, an African American chooses to write and perform music that is degrading to their own race it’s not “race shaming” to point out that while they may personally enjoy what they do, have freely chosen to do so and may personally make lots of $$ as a result, they can’t at the same time demand to be held judgment free by fellow Blacks in the interest of the unity of the “brotherhood.”

     if their songs, lyrics, videos reinforce harmful stereotypes, caters to racists, fuels the backlash against hard fought racial progress, they need to be called on it.

     At the root of rape, sexual assault, incest, human trafficking is the notion that sexual access to the bodies of others is a right, a privilege, that overrides that person’s humanity.

     The more male sexual “entitlement” is reinforced, mainstreamed, winked at, the more men who come to expect it as their “due.” Which is why when the “demand” for bodies to be purchased for sexual use exceeds the “supply” women and children are trafficked to fill . . . . not that “need” – but what way too many people consider to be that “right.”

     Women will always be second class citizens as long as their sexuality and bodies can be purchased just like any other “object” or “service.”

     Historically in any disenfranchised group the majority live in denial, there’s a small group of resisters and a small group of collaborators who “suck up” to those in power.

     Shared gender doesn’t mean we hold each other above reproach and support each others’ choices regardless of the consequences. It doesn’t mean we don’t raise the extremely pertinent question of whether we’re part of the solution or the problem.

     Mindlessly sticking together as women makes no sense because as Naomi Wolf points out the modern women’s movement isn’t men vs. women, it’s progressive men and women who want to relate as equals vs. traditional men and women who view women as the sexual property of men – wives as private property, and prostitutes as public chattel for rent.

     Which is why progressive women, and traditional men,will never see eye-to-eye about Bachelor parties, strippers. They have totally different notions about men, women and relationships.

115. Meghan: Haha, that sounds awesome. I’m stealing that idea.
     Becca West: Um, Naomi Wolf isn’t a feminist anymore, I believe.

116. Becca West.. I am going to be subscribing to your brand of Feminism. I have always felt that way internally.. and then subsequently shamed myself for criticizing sex work. Do you have any links you could provide me with on further reading? Younger feminist here.

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