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On the Myth of Inherent Female Bisexuality

Freudian psychoanalysts held that all people, male and female, are born bisexual and like a light switch held between on and off, will usually fall into one of two extremes. Freudians, on the whole, did not consider homosexuality to be an aberration or sickness in and of itself, but that societal pressures would undoubtedly contribute to unhealthy fetishes and sexual behaviors.

Following the light switch analogy, Alfred Kinsey’s famous scale would be like a dial pointing somewhere between homosexuality and heterosexuality: a continuum where the large majority resides very near the heterosexual end.

The twentieth century, with the discovery of a molecular basis for inheritance, saw a sharp rise in the use of terms like “inherent” and “predisposition” in lay discussions of animal behavior. Incidentally, it is of no surprise that discussions of human behavior dwell on human sexuality. Coitus, fornication, fucking, whatever you like to call it, is fun. It’s fun to do; it’s fun to talk about.

Sexual Freedom and the Differential Objectification of the Sexes. Pure objectification of humans has, strangely enough, not gone out of style. Entire ad campaigns for instance, whether lauded or despised, are based on reducing other people to objects: especially objects of desire. And in this globalized culture, objects are to be owned.

But where does the objectification of males differ from that of women?

This is not a loaded question, and one that I don’t feel competent answering it in full. The level of differentiation between female/male objectification is to a large extent result of the masculine/feminine power, based on gender-specific roles couched with elements of submissiveness and dominance, within a particular culture. Although we had a semblance of equality coming out of the twentieth century, there is a noticeable and measurable element of male dominance. (Just read Feministing, Pandagon, or Feministe on any given day.)

This is distinctly related to the IFB myth and the type of male who would adopt and preach it as Truth. One way of rationalizing the myth is that women are the sole source of human sexuality. We can all agree that they tend to be the curvier and better smelling of the species, but that doesn’t mean that men can’t (or shouldn’t) be sexual objects. The myth is, therefore, a coping mechanism for some men who feel inadequate with their own sexual desirability, and doubles as a means of avoiding male objectification, and perceived ownership, at all costs.

One would be hard pressed to find a serious reference to all men being totally, inherently bisexual from a feminist voice. Alternatively, I’ve yet to hear a woman tell a gay man that he “just hasn’t been with a real woman, yet.” Implicit in the assuming of IFB, is that women are not sexually sophisticated enough for their own subjectivity to be trusted:

  • “Women cannot be straight because seeing two chicks kissing is hot!
  • “Women cannot be lesbians because they must be sexually available to men”, which is a watered down version of “Even lesbians need cock.”

See how that works? Men can be self-described heterosexuals, bisexuals, and homosexuals. But women, with all the sexual power they wield, have absolutely no choice. And restricting choice is the modus operandi of a patriarchal agenda.

[This is likely to turn into a three-part series. Next time: “What the Scientists Think”.]

[Lauren added: Ryan regularly blogs at Liberal Avenger. Welcome again!]


44 thoughts on On the Myth of Inherent Female Bisexuality

  1. Ryan, how many times must we go through this? It isn’t IFB, it’s called ‘BMF,’ or ‘Bullshit Male Fantasy.’ The myth is widely propagated for the sole purpose of allowing men to have more than one partner simultaneously (‘Every Man’s Fantasy’). Think about it: the only way most men can have two(+) women at once is to convince them that they are supposed to like each other. Thus, ‘All women are inherently bisexual.’
    We’ve been through this a million times. Why don’t you ever listen to me? You can just forget about me inviting my sister over tonight.

  2. ’Every Man’s Fantasy’

    This is a bit off topic, but I’ve been thinking about that a bit lately. Of course, it’s stupid to honestly make the case that it’s _every_ man’s fantasy, simply because it’s factually false. I offer myself as a counterindicator. But I’ve been wondering lately what proportion of guy legitimately hold that fantasy. I think there’s a strong homosocial influence for guys to claim that they’d love to, so to speak, do two chicks at the same time. Guy who don’t find that appealing may stay silent or lie when it comes up. Cause, evidently, there’s somthing ‘gay’ about having sex with a woman. At least when you could be having sex with two or more.

  3. KnifeGhost,

    I’ll be touching on that in what is currently part three of this little series. In short, it’s “every man’s fantasy” in the sense that those perpetuating the myth need it the perception if they are to realize their fantasy.

    It’s pretty much the only case of fetishists openly advertising their preferences in the hope that it will lead to forced cooperation from both sexes to satisfy their own sexual ends.

  4. Although we had a semblance of equality coming out of the twentieth century, there is a noticeable and measurable element of male dominance.

    Hear, hear, brother! Just check this out! The patriarchs don’t even need to go to SCHOOL, apparently!

    And …

    This is distinctly related to the IFB myth and the type of male who would adopt and preach it as Truth.

    Again, preach that REAL “Truth” brother! Though … well … I guess another type of male that might adopt and preach it would be one that fucking reads.

    And believes in that science and behavioral psychology and PET scan stuff and such.

    (more here and here and here)

    But fuck those mysoginists Patriarchal power brokers, am I right?

    A certain element could certainly be cultural, but to claim that these objective measures just don’t exist – asserting greater bisexuality among women is strictly some form of bullshit controlling male fantasy – well, that’s just crazy.

  5. I’ve yet to hear a woman tell a gay man that he “just hasn’t been with a real woman, yet.”

    I’ve heard this plenty of times – I think it’s actually a really common myth, even if it doesn’t have the gross macho performance angle. My question is why? Why is the lesbo-for-male-consuption myth growing, and what’s so attractive about it to begin with?

  6. Bill from INDC wrote:

    Again, preach that REAL “Truth” brother! Though … well … I guess another type of male that might adopt and preach it would be one that fucking reads.

    And believes in that science and behavioral psychology and PET scan stuff and such.

    I think you’ll be interested to read the next installment on this topic. I’ll be commenting on some of the studies that are mentioned in the links you’ve provided, most noteworthy being the work done by Meredith Chivers and the problems related to the experiments she uses to bolster her claims and conclusions.

    I hope you’ll stay tuned, or is that “browsed”?

  7. And when I referenced the “noticeable and measurable element of male dominance”, I did not mean to imply that there do not exist trends that are leading to an evening out or even female dominance in some areas.

  8. Every man’s Fantasy is to have two women at the same time? Frankly I find this rather juvenile and sophomoric. Get back to me when we start taking about four or more women at the same time. 🙂

    Ryan.

    What is so attractive about it anyway?

    Well I think I can help, the fantasy works on much the same level that most typical male fantasies work. The idea is that many men fantasize about confronting a woman who not only fits their personal view of sexual attractiveness but also possesses a sexual response that is as immediate and as objective driven as a typical male (throw in the ability to completely separate the sex act from issues of emotion and intellect).

    Now the lesbian fantasy works because it’s double the fun, here there woman are not really lesbians in the technical sense, they are essentially hetero sexual women who simply lack one essential ingredient to satisfy their unquenchable and completely unhinged sexual desire, mainly the man having the fantasy. Ones the stage is set then the man is free to fanaticize about entering the picture and giving both of the subjects what they both so desperately needed in the first place.

    Does that clear it up?

    … providing examples of moronic Alpha male behaviour since 1975….

  9. This whole post seems to be attacking a straw man; who specifically are you responding to here? There seem to be so many “Occam’s Razor” explanations for wanting to see pretty women make out, but at the same time wanting them to be available to the imaginer/fantisizer sexually, that I don’t see why it’s necessary to tie this into some sort of explicitly misogynistic impulse. In Japan there’s a whole genre of “boy love” Manga/Anime geared towards a female audience; does their interest parallel your ideas of male fantasies about female sexuality?

  10. I think you’ll be interested to read the next installment on this topic. I’ll be commenting on some of the studies that are mentioned in the links you’ve provided, most noteworthy being the work done by Meredith Chivers and the problems related to the experiments she uses to bolster her claims and conclusions.

    I eagerly await the next installments. But your methodology better be good.

    Another major flaw in your rationale above – besides the contrary evidence that you promise to address – is the fact that your entire argument relies on assumed gender feminist “truths” which are strictly ideological, subjective and/or anecdotal. You have no objective evidence for many of the maxims that you propose about male dominance as motivator, etc., except the cliched assumptions regurgitated in feminist studies coursework. We’re all just supposed to bob our heads in agreement with wildly subjective and ridiculously sweeping assertions. Why? because reading a site titled feministe, the audience should all be down with such assumptions, apparently. For example:

    The myth is, therefore, a coping mechanism for some men who feel inadequate with their own sexual desirability, and doubles as a means of avoiding male objectification, and perceived ownership, at all costs.

    I reject (with a smirk) the uncritically stated idea that the social perception and assertion of female bisexuality stems from some gross failing/insecurity among men. Reject it out of hand. Is it possible that a percentage of men fit your criteria? Of course. But to suggest this as a prime motivation – some evident truth – based on an ideological judgment with no objective evidentiary backing (aka something you pulled out of your ass based on your observations and preconceptions about the roles and struggle of men and women in society) – well it just makes your argument unserious and strictly theoretical, yet you don’t even caveat with the theoretical part. Some objective standards need to support your ideologically-motivated theoretical sociology for you to posit such conclusions.

    And, taking the tact of strictly fighting anecdotal observation with anecdotal observation, some pervasive male paranoia about and resistance to masculine objectification doesn’t survive a simple drugstore magazine rack test: men are embracing objectification – a glossy male ideal – enthusiastically and in droves. Why?

    Because mass objectification is simply a symptom of the desire for sexual success writ large in a commercial society. These “objects” are market-driven expressions of the ID’s ostensible sexual physical ideal. And men can’t be unfairly categorizing women as bisexual creatures to avoid this objectification, when they are actually embracing objectification themselves. Of course, that’s just one contrary argument based on my subjective sociological observations, and as such, i wouldn’t base an entire argument around it.

    And lastly, any promise you make to poke holes in Chivers’ studies that intimate female bisexuality also needs to probably make an effort to poke holes in the related research into male bisexuality – specifically that, as an objectively measured state of arousal, it does not commonly exist. This spreads beyond Chivers’ research.

    Also anecdotally, I started reading about this topic with a predisposition myself. But rather than the predisposition of denigrating a patriarchy, namely, I simply wondered why nearly half of the 30 or so women I’ve dated since college (not to mention friends) had or desired a sexual experience with another woman. seemed like an awful evident tendency on their part, irrespective of my own secret desire to FIGHT MY OBJECIFICATION and assert PATRIARCHAL DOMINANCE. The simple fact is – a lot of women seem more amenable and/or comfortable with the concept of bisexuality, in my experience. And this anecdotal observation is backed up by several (apparently) objective measures noted in my previous comment.

  11. Thanks for the comment, APF.

    My intention was to avoid building strawmen and take on the IFB myth on directly. For example, instead of dissecting the root of the myth and arguing against it, I could have claimed that what IFB proponents are really saying is that “all women want to have sex with women just as much as men”, then cite a study where that is shown not to be the case. That would be a classic strawman fallacy.

    What I find interesting, though, is that you turn around and build a strawman yourself:

    There seem to be so many “Occam’s Razor” explanations for wanting to see pretty women make out, but at the same time wanting them to be available to the imaginer/fantisizer sexually, that I don’t see why it’s necessary to tie this into some sort of explicitly misogynistic impulse.

    I never claimed that such a fantasy is misogynistic. What is misogynistic is telling a self-described heterosexual woman that she cannot trust her own subjective assessment of her sexuality. And there is nothing wrong with being a straight male and finding lesbian sex arousing; it turns out that women find gay male sex just as, if not slightly more, arousing when compared to heterosexual sex. This is related to the topic of “boy love” manga. I would guess that however popular that genre is, the majority of its consumers do not suppose that all men fit that mold.

  12. Ryan said:

    …most noteworthy being the work done by Meredith Chivers and the problems related to the experiments she uses to bolster her claims and conclusions.”

    I’ve been to a couple of Women’s Sexuality conferences and it’s true that most of the ‘evidence’ for inherent female bisexuality is based on highly erroneous measurements of sexual arousal. From what I understand, measurements such vaginal moisture levels are not correlated with subjective arousal, yet these are used in studies by Chivers and ilk to argue their agenda.

    Furthermore, subjectivity is the crux of sexuality; by using such problematic measurements as a proxy, there’s an unnecessary step introduced into the study. But this ties into your idea that women (or people in general?) can’t be trusted to analyze their own sexuality.

    It was truly satisfying, though, to see any scientist using these outdated methods get completely pummeled by their superior colleagues.

  13. What is misogynistic is telling a self-described heterosexual woman that she cannot trust her own subjective assessment of her sexuality.

    I don’t think most or even many people assert “hey – you ARE bisexual” to women that assert and self-identify as heterosexual. At its heart, sexuality is all about personal preference coupled with genetic and environmental predisposition, and no one but the individual can definitively assert that preference. Many folks recognize this. And those that don’t? Well, fuck them.

    The actual judgment is – “many or most women seem to have bisexual arousal patterns while men don’t,” and “more women than men seem amenable to and actually carry out bisexual impulses in the real world.”

    There are almost infinite shades of grey between “statistical predisposition” and “destiny.”

  14. It’s not an assertion so much as it is a general atmosphere, especially in high school and college situations. And it’s not all negative: on the one hand, it makes it a little easier for girls who really are bisexual or lesbians to be accepted; on the other, however, it means that when the ‘bi-curious’ girls who aren’t bisexual actually come to that realization, they leave the lesbian or bisexual girls who they’ve been pretending to be with for guys.

    /not-bitter

  15. I think this:

    many or most women seem to have bisexual arousal patterns while men don’t

    is more indicative of internalization of the social assuption that women are the keepers of sex and their partners have to “get” it somehow, some way. For straight women, anyway.

  16. hmmm…very interesting entry, I can get behind the ideas, especially since I do see this kind of attitude in the media where it concerns lesbians who are only there obviously for the male gaze. I’ve never seen a lesbian I could identify with on the pixels on my TV with some rare exceptions. Most become straight or bi through the course of the show or their partner dies and suddenly they become straight again or they die rendering the return to heterosexuality mute. Never ends well for the lesbians. Look at Xena and Buffy, even ‘good’ representations have to be punished for their desire if they do remain lesbians or facsimiles of lesbians (like Xena). Okay, I’ll shut up now, but I think your ideas are good here.

  17. I never claimed that such a fantasy is misogynistic. What is misogynistic is telling a self-described heterosexual woman that she cannot trust her own subjective assessment of her sexuality.

    But who is actually, seriously, doing that? I think Bill is casting the right argument here, the one you should be addressing. As a tangent however, I’ve heard plenty of women saying that this-or-that man must really be gay and that they’re just fooling themselves, etc. (this line of attack often leveled at perceived homophobes f/e). It seems to me that both the attraction to gay/bisexual acts and cynicism towards others’ sexual preferences occur regardless of sex/gender/sexuality.

  18. A friend of mine once told me a story of his encounter with BMF. Now I tend to believe him only because it did not go well…at least for him. Cuz, the ladies basically ignored him and he was left, should I say, standing there with his dick in his hand. If he had started in on some version of “Letters to Penthouse” I would have called bullshit.

    So I suppose in the real life why you think this fantasy would come to pass with two lesbians who have no interest in men?

    I also suppose you could get involved with two bisexual women but then you just might be the less attractive three wheel.

    and finally the real fantasy would be two heterosexual women who find you irresistible and comfortable with sharing.

    In any case if you are assuming that women are all bi and try to coerce, well that is sexist and harassing.

  19. Lauren –

    And I think this …

    is more indicative of internalization of the social assuption that women are the keepers of sex and their partners have to “get” it somehow, some way. For straight women, anyway.

    … has nothing to do with “internalization of the social assumption,” or who is “the keeper of sex,” rather is my very straight and dry reading of the result implications of research linked above, research where men and women were shown various types of porn (guy on girl, girl on girl, guy on guy) and had their brains and genitals monitored for arousal. There are several other ways to summarize that research which lead with observations about male sexuality (if the fact that i led with women is the basis of your observation), but that’s not the topic here.

    So, um, your point about some subjective internalization of judgment in a simple summary of objective research is friggin’ bizarre.

  20. One would be hard pressed to find a serious reference to all men being totally, inherently bisexual from a feminist voice.

    I might take some issue with you equating preferences in pornography with a serious argument.

    That given, a lot of women (heterosexual and bi) enjoy male-male porn, in writing and artwork. Amateur slash is available all over the internet; it’s also quite prevalent in manga intended for female audiences.

    But where does the objectification of males differ from that of women?

    I wonder if somebody’s done a scholarly comparison of female-female imagery in porn intended for men with male-male imagery in porn intended for women.

    I’ve heard that male-male porn intended for women *does* differ from male-male porn intended for gay men, just as much as lesbians’ porn differs from “lesbian porn” intended for men.
    For example, I have seen criticism that gay characters in female-authored porn are portrayed too womanly (more emotional and relationship-driven). And I can see lesbianism in male porn portrayed in masculine-terms (more about sex than relationships).

    Perhaps it’s a limitation of the creators’ perspective. Or maybe we all want to see more of our own desires reflected in the “other.” Who knows. Any speculation (including this paragraph) would probably end up with me pulling stereotypes out of a hat.

    Nonetheless, I don’t think one should try to derive much about male attitudes about porn-lesbians without first comparing it to comparable slashfic. It may not be an exclusively-male attribute, but something more universal in the human condition.

  21. Ryan, I think this is one of those areas where we just don’t know enough.

    On the one hand, there are lots of reasons for a mythology of IFB, and I think you’ve done a good job exploring that.

    On the other hand, I think there is such a thing as a “fact of the matter” of arousal. That’s not to say that it can even be shown objectively (like intent, which is a fact, but which can only be inferred or self-reported. In an area with as much baggage as sexuality, I’m not sure we can simply take people at their word when they self-report arousal. Sure, some folks are perfectly comfortable admitting what turns them on, but others are not.

    So far, I’m not sure we’re doing so well in measuring something that’s a proxy for actual arousal. First, many studies use porn as a stimulus, assuming that images of people in sexual acts and situations is a proxy for wanting to engage in those acts with those folks. That is not necessarily so. Second, the methods we use are simply not very good — crude physical measures of manifestations of complex mental phenomena.

    Also, much of this discussion tends to take place at a not-very-granular level of analysis around orientation. There’s a big difference between finding sex partners and finding romantic partners. One’s orientation regarding the latter could properly be called “affectional orientation,” while the term “sexual orientation” generally gets stretched to cover both. I’ve known plenty of women and some men who have both men and women as sex partners, but who only pair romantically with one or the other.

    What I’m saying, here, is that there is a myth of IFB, and then there’s a reality of male and female sexual and affectional orientation. We actually know very little about the latter, but in criticizing the former, I don’t want to make factual assertions that remain untested (e.g. that female bisexuality is no more common than male bisexuality).

    Finally, to throw my hat in the “why the threesome fantasy” controversy, I think there are a bunch of reasons. Of course, women as sex objects is one big driver. However, threesomes generally add several layers of erotic dynamics, and a lot of people want that. However, homophobia prevents lots of men from wanting, or from saying they want, a m/m/f threesome, so they talk about f/f/m threesomes.

  22. Bill, arousal to porn is a bad proxy. I don’t have male sex partners, and I don’t want them, but show me a video of a guy wearing a ring gag and licking another guy’s boots, and I’ll become erect. Not because I like looking at male-male porn, but because I’ll get off to just about anybody doing BDSM. And I’m not the only counterexample. There’s a much-discussed phenomenon of lesbian audiences for gay male porn — Susie Bright wrote about in it her “Susie Sexpert’s Lesbian Sex World,” which BTW is a worthwhile read. Are these women secretly attracted to men just because they get off to watching two men fuck? Even if they have only female sex partners? Even if when the fantasize about themselves in sexual situations, they picture themselves only with female partners?

  23. I’ve yet to hear a woman tell a gay man that he “just hasn’t been with a real woman, yet.”

    I haven’t heard it spoken, but I’m sure it’s been thought. Possibly just by overromantic teenagers with crushes, but there’s a certain Mary Sue fantasy that he hasn’t met the right woman, and if only he’d notice you… [Yes, I speak from shameful experience. Never acted on it, and hopefully I wasn’t obvious about it, but it happened.

    I would guess that however popular that genre is, the majority of its consumers do not suppose that all men fit that mold.

    I read a lot in the Harry Potter fandom. I can’t think of a male character who hasn’t been slashed with another male in some story or other. Sometimes, it’s just for the challenge, but every male character has been pushed into that mold by some woman. [In fact, I’ve seen some criticism that characters shown to have girlfriends in canon are often among the most-slashed!]
    Of course, these are clearly fantasy, and few slashers think such relationships will ever happen for real in the series.
    Likewise, I doubt the majority of male consumers of female-female porn suppose that all women fit that mold, either.

    I think you should be very careful in judging what a person wants in the real world based upon their desires and porn-preferences.

  24. Bill, arousal to porn is a bad proxy. I don’t have male sex partners, and I don’t want them, but show me a video of a guy wearing a ring gag and licking another guy’s boots, and I’ll become erect.

    Well our tastes vary and your example wouldn’t do much for me personally but I have to agree with the basic principle. I’ve never watched gay porn and have no interest in gay sex but I have to assume, knowing myself, that I would become somewhat aroused by watching at least some of it. I’ve never tested this and I have no idea what goes on in average gay porn so I could be wrong. But I figure watching anyone enjoying sex is going to be somewhat stimulating. Of course, “enjoying” is the key word and is why I find so much male on female porn boring – you know the women involved can’t really be enjoying it. There are exceptions though and that is what I look for.

  25. What always ‘gets me’ and causes me to discount these studies, is that they are outcome based and yet draw absolute conclusions about the test studies (in this case men and women). Outcome based study is meant to be a starting place, from there the inquiry continues.. “Why?” Why when this factor, that result. Why when this condition, that outcome. Outcomes are the results of many (some immeasurable even) factors. Scientists know this, are trained to understand and approach this. After oucome data, there is supposed to be further investigation before explanations can be supported.

    So why use outcome data to support conclusive theory? Just because sexual arousal is measured when either gender views certain material, this doesn’t mean that either gender is ‘inherently’ anything! Combine the test results with other investigations and draw out the parrallels and contradictions, produce further study and then discuss conclusions.. For example.. Is it not utterly, completely, probable that sexual arousal behaviors are in large part nurtured through life experiences and cultural influences?

    Is it not possible that the outcome study presented only supports the observable and notable recent and current influences.. Like, for example, that it has become more acceptable for women to have same-sex experiences than it has ever been for men to?

    Now if we want to discuss why that is, that is where the concept of ‘the system’ and culturalization begins. And that is where a number of gender-based issues arise. Not with some printed-for-sensational purposes outcome study….

    ack, that bugs me when they do that….

  26. Implicit in the assuming of IFB, is that women are not sexually sophisticated enough for their own subjectivity to be trusted:

    “Women cannot be straight because seeing two chicks kissing is hot!”
    “Women cannot be lesbians because they must be sexually available to men”, which is a watered down version of “Even lesbians need cock.”

    See how that works? Men can be self-described heterosexuals, bisexuals, and homosexuals. But women, with all the sexual power they wield, have absolutely no choice. And restricting choice is the modus operandi of a patriarchal agenda.

    I realise your post is short so you can’t cover every detail but this seems to me to quite a jump. You’ve divided your theory into 3 posts (the other two forthcoming) but this is the conclusion of this one. It would seem that some evidence for this conclusion should be included. I know that on a site called Feministe blaming it on the patriarchy is an easy out but sorry but this kind of statement requires some thing to back it up. At the very least some examples might help a little.

  27. I’ve yet to hear a woman tell a gay man that he “just hasn’t been with a real woman, yet.

    I’ve known two different dudes in my life who used this ploy to get laid. They would pretend to be gay, upset and vulnerable because their lover just jilted them, and had an uncanny ability to get therapy fucks from dumb but big hearted girls.

  28. IFB myth

    I Fuck Back???

    Also, this is an overly broad brush:

    Coitus, fornication, fucking, whatever you like to call it, is fun. It’s fun to do; it’s fun to talk about.

  29. I understand, measurements such vaginal moisture levels are not correlated with subjective arousal, yet these are used in studies by Chivers and ilk to argue their agenda.

    Um, duh. wtf?

  30. And believes in that science and behavioral psychology and PET scan stuff and such.

    (more here and here and here)

    Are you linking a survey done by Playboy in earnest, or just yanking our chains?

    Also, do not mention “good methodology” and J. Michael Bailey’s research in the same comments thread, ‘kay?

  31. Um, duh. wtf?

    Vaginal moisture can’t be used to indicate some level of physical arousal. That would be like saying a male erection indicates something. Oh wait….

  32. measurements such vaginal moisture levels are not correlated with subjective arousal, yet these are used in studies by Chivers and ilk

    As a woman with female sexual dysfunction, I know a fair bit about the physiology of sex.

    Vaginal moisture levels directly correspond to male tumescence and achieving erection. Inherently it’s the same function.

    So, if you would measure a man’s arousal by whether or not he gets hard rather than any emotional reaction, that is the appropriate analogous measure for women.

    [Incidentally, this also means that a woman who doesn’t lubricate is effectively impotent and deserves treatment as such, rather than just resorting to artificial lubes to circumvent an actual emotional or physical problem.]

    PS: I showed this comment to my husband before posting just for his factchecking. He wishes to point out that tumescence is not 100% correlated with subjective arousal for men.

  33. Also, this is an overly broad brush:

    Coitus, fornication, fucking, whatever you like to call it, is fun. It’s fun to do; it’s fun to talk about.

    Begging for sympathy fucks works better if you can demonstrate some humility.

  34. For the record, I think watching two guys go at it is pretty hot, so long as they are, but I’ve never even remotely thought that was an excuse to claim all men are inherently bisexual.

    But I could start if it would start some trouble.

  35. EricP and Lis Riba,

    Vaginal moisture is not analogous to male erection. Blood flow to the clitoris is analogous to blood flow to the penis, seeing as how the penis and clitoris are homologous structures. (And, no, blood flow to the clitoris does not correlate with vaginal moisture either.)

    There is a relatively high correlation between subjective male arousal and penile tumescence, but to date, the only reliable physiological correlates for female arousal include things like pulmonary and respiratory rates.

    Vaginal moisture is not a reliable indicator of sexual arousal, which is one reason to explain why many victims of rape report getting wet even though they clearly did not enjoy the attack.

    NO physiological measurement is perfectly correlated with subjective arousal because, as Lis Riba said, there are physiological problems that can interfere with genital responses of both men and women. This is one reason to not use genital responses as a primary indicator of arousal, as I have already suggested.

  36. In Japan there’s a whole genre of “boy love” Manga/Anime geared towards a female audience; does their interest parallel your ideas of male fantasies about female sexuality?

    Actually, APF, yaoi/shounen ai are less about the males involved and more about the male bodies giving the women readers and authors a safe space in which to explore their own (female) sexuality. It came about in part because that place that was not fully provided them in either real life or in pop culture. While things like the IFB myth and BMF are expressions of a problem surrounding our conception of masculinity, it is in no way comparable the problems surrounding the Japanese conception of femininity that are one of the main roots behind yaoi. Also, the latter is confined to popular culture outlets; as far as I know this isn’t a phenomenon where women go around harassing men.

    Now, if you wanted to discuss slash fiction and how it’s grown in America with a female audience, I’d say that it is a better comparison. Use of the genre aside, there are cases of women going to Cosplay events and getting angry at two guys who won’t kiss for their amusement. Although in that case, it seems like it is largely a backlash to the kind of macho culture Ryan is describing. Sort of the “well, if guys do it to us, then we can do it to them, too!” kind of attitude. Not something to condone, but also not something to be looked at as a 100% parallel to BMF culture.

    I suggest you actually read up on the history of yaoi/shounen ai and the study of it before you start making connections that don’t make sense in a Japanese context. Off the top of my head, I can recommend the article “Penguin in Bondage”, written by Sandra Buckley and pubished in Technoculture. There are some areas that are problematic (which is inherent in an outsider perspective, I suppose), but it’s not a bad read. There are also some articles over at AnimeResearch.com, but I haven’t read them so I can’t comment on how useful they may be on this particular subject. As with Buckley’s article, I’d recommend reading critically on the subject.

  37. Yes, I agree with Tekanji in saying that slash is the better comparison, but the speculation in slash fiction is never encouraged to be taken outside of the community. None of us would go up to the actor who plays our favorite character in a series and say something crude about their sexuality. I have heard of isolated incidents, but they are condemned. Slash tries to be as shadowy as possible, so any kind of exposure like that is frowned upon. But yes there is a lot of objectifying of the male form in slash, but I’ve never seen it directly effect anything in the media or in real life. I also believe slash fiction is more radical than male fantasy, because it is way for women to control the media in some small way and like yaoi is a way for women to explore their sexuality and share it, surprisingly, with other women. Talk about radical, lol.

  38. Vaginal moisture is not analogous to male erection. Blood flow to the clitoris is analogous to blood flow to the penis, seeing as how the penis and clitoris are homologous structures.

    Bloodflow to the clitoris is analogous to bloodflow to the head of the penis.
    But vaginal moisture is plasma-based, and thus also dependent upon bloodflow, similar to tumescence.

    [This does mean that women whose sexual dysfunctions are related to circulatory problems can benefit from Viagra, although it’s not a cureall for sexual dysfunctions of either gender.]

    After Viagra’s release seven years ago, when women with sexual dysfunctions started demanding help from their doctors, medical science realized how little they understood about the physiology of women’s sexual function. Can’t really know how to repair a system if you don’t know what normal looks like. So this is all relatively new science.

  39. Slash tries to be as shadowy as possible … I also believe slash fiction is more radical than male fantasy

    While that may have been the case among early slashers, what I’m seeing now are women (and girls) growing up considering slash something entirely normal. It’s not a political statement, it’s something to get off to.

    That in itself may be a radical change from past practice, but that doesn’t impute anything to the motives of current practitioners (creators or consumers).

    While slash itself may not be commercial (generally limited by coming out of fanfic which has copyright restrictions), it is definitely influencing popular culture. The television show House deliberately throws bones to the slashers in the form of regular one-liners which tease about the gay subtext between the characters.

    And just wait until Brokeback Mountain hits theaters… Unless it’s particularly poorly done, I think mainstream critics who’ve said (paraphrased) ‘teenaged girls don’t want to see guys in the arms of other guys’ are going to be quite shocked.

    But again, that surprise would reflect generational change, not that slashers are slashing to shock…

  40. It’s not a political statement, it’s something to get off to.

    For some people it’s solely the former, for others solely the latter, and for yet others it’s both.

    I, myself, am not immersed in the slash/yaoi culture, but I find it fascinating and fun. When I get to Japan (only 4 more months!) I have a few old-school titles I am going to get my hands on and I fully intend to keep an eye out for the newer ones.

    Though I am not a “rabid” fan by far, I had started an original slash story in my first year of Uni. I did it because it was fun, yah, but also because I wanted to explore the ins and outs of sexuality and gender.

    Maybe I’m not a typical example of a Westerner into slash, but I’m certainly not alone, as anashi’s comment can attest to.

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