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The Pregnancy Cult

Jill

A lady’s story of utilizing the services a “pro-life” crisis pregnancy center to get free stuff, even though she had no plans to terminate her pregnancy. Bonus: Free stuff. Downside: Total assholes.

When I found this online, I decided to scam the pregnancy cult for all they were worth. I went in, faking that my pregnancy was accidental. I took a simple out-of-the-box pregnancy test and was immediately taken upstairs for an ultrasound. For the uninitiated – this is the part where they try to show you the baby’s eyes, toes, lungs, heart, etc in order to convince you to keep the baby. I, of course, had no plans to abort, especially as I was at 24 weeks. My ex-husband sat there with me, uncomfortably shifting in his seat as the Christian music blared in the background. That is when and where I found out I was having a boy.

After a suitable time of oo-ing and aw-ing over the ultrasound pictures, I had a “counseling session.” They gauged my belief in God, which was confusing to them to no end. Then, I was ask – do you feel safe in your home environment. I suddenly had that moment, where I knew this was my way out. I answered honestly – “No, it’s not safe. My husband is a fucking psychopath, and I need out.” This apparently was not the usual answer. I would love to tell you that the church group whisk me away to a safe place and got me and my unborn child away from that monster, but alas, no. I was given a lecture of wifely responsibilities and duties. I was told that I obviously was at fault for not letting him lead, and I was somehow aggressively subjugating his masculinity. I felt defeated, but this still seemed like a small escape to my otherwise closed-in and closely monitored existence.

I was given a schedule. I would come back every week for a three-hour session. I would watch videos on childbirth and pregnancy for an hour and a half, then I would be cornered in a small room with two lovely Christian ladies who would then tell me what a horrible person I was for being in such a marriage where I refused to accept my husband’s ruling with an iron fist. “Spare the rod and spoil the child is meant for the wife as well in some more difficult cases,” they said. I was routinely told that if I did not accept Jesus Christ as my savior I would go to hell no matter how I had lived my life or what good deeds I did. For each session, I would get points. The points led to baby items. I was determined to get a pram (a stroller that is more for infants and kind of old fashioned).

Good rules, pregnancy center. Make all the necessary baby stuff come with lectures about how women should suffer through abuse.

100 thoughts on The Pregnancy Cult

  1. Shit, I would totally put myself through that for a free pram – at this point in my life.

    On a more serious note – I really love the neat way these “crisis centers” get around the pesky abuse issue. Try to brainwash a woman into keeping her abuser’s child – by telling her she’s a stupid bitch who deserves it. Pure stroke of evil genius.

  3. We’ll give you free stuff if you let us shove our beliefs down your throat and go to a few meetings where we tell you that you should be beaten because you misbehaved.
    Let me say that again:
    YOU, A GROWN WOMAN, SHOULD BE BEATEN BY YOUR HUSBAND.
    YOU, A GROWN WOMAN, SHOULD BE BEATEN BY YOUR HUSBAND.

    This line just keeps playing over and over in my head. How do they trick themselves into believing this is okay? Or, what’s the point of making other people believe it? Anybody answer these ones for me?

  7. I’ve thought about trolling the far right to try to convince the extremists that these crisis pregnancy centers are just abortion mills and that they deserve “God’s” judgment as well. But that would be wrong. Someone might accidentally murder a Christian.

    But I find it worrying that so few are willing to stand up for abortion as a right, not just as a necessary evil. I don’t believe in Clinton’s “Safe, legal, and rare.” I think the right of a woman to own her own body is complete.

  8. And these places are not only allowed to exist, but encouraged by some state governments?

    Huh. If I didn’t have ethics, I could be making a killing on stuff like this.

  9. That’s pretty depressing ): there’s one of those in my town and some classmates of mine even volunteer there.

    I had hoped that more pro-life people could come up with at least *some* tangible resources to help women to carry out a pregnancy if they wanted to. Convincing a woman to stay in an unsafe home is absolutely deplorable. There is no excuse for it, least of all the Bible. There are Christian-and Catholic-shelters for victims of domestic violence.

    And trying to cheat a poor mother out of her pram? Low.

  10. There’s a punch line: the pram broke a few months after she got it. Kind of dangerous to have come from a place that “cares” about children so much!

  12. While I agree that there is a lot of brainwashing that goes on at some of these clinics, I know of others that aren’t like this one at all. Some crisis pregnancy centers are run by caring people that don’t just want to shove beliefs down people’s throats. I know of a crisis pregnancy center that a friend of mine volunteered at where they actually provided shelter and other services to women that found themselves in abusive relationships. I am not necessarily a huge advocate for these centers, just thought I would try and round out the conversation a little bit.

  13. Something I couldn’t get from that Salon piece…if this woman’s husband at that time was so abusive, why didn’t she try to get to a legitimate crisis center, staffed by decent human beings who would help her?

  14. free pregnancy test? welp, I know where to go if I have a scare now! I fully approve of milking these deluded fuckwads for everything that they’re worth, even if it comes at the price of having to sit through a bunch of bullshit.

  15. Bitter Scribe:
    Something I couldn’t get from that Salon piece…if this woman’s husband at that time was so abusive, why didn’t she try to get to a legitimate crisis center, staffed by decent human beings who would help her?

    Because sometimes people don’t? Because it’s hard to go for help, especially when you’re being abused? I mean, from the article it sounds like the only reason she told them was because they asked her – it’s not something she was seeking out at the time. And their response to her would hardly have encouraged her to look elsewhere.

    Let’s not veer into victim-blaming, please please please.

  16. From the article even, describing how it felt to disclose at the crisis centre:

    still seemed like a small escape to my otherwise closed-in and closely monitored existence.

    When someone feels like they are being watched and controlled all the time in an abusive relationship, it’s hardly conducive to seeking help.

  17. Like everyone else I’m stuck on the abuse issue…I mean, I expected the rest of their “pro-life” rhetoric, lies, and guilting…but REALLY?!?!? Their solution to someone who is facing an abusive relationship is to shut up, do your job, wifey, and then you won’t get beat.

    I just…I ….Idon’tevenfuckingknow.

    I mean, who knew “pro-life” also mean pro-wife beatings?

  18. I was given a lecture of wifely responsibilities and duties. I was told that I obviously was at fault for not letting him lead, and I was somehow aggressively subjugating his masculinity.

    The outrage. Cannot be. Described.

  19. Bitter Scribe:
    Something I couldn’t get from that Salon piece…if this woman’s husband at that time was so abusive, why didn’t she try to get to a legitimate crisis center, staffed by decent human beings who would help her?

    I read around the rest of her blog, and in other posts she explains the type of relationship she had with her ex-husband. MASSIVE TRIGGER WARNING. Her ex-husband tried to throw their infant son in the fireplace and feed him to his feral dogs. He tried to throw her off a balcony when he realized it was too late for her to get an abortion. He had security cameras installed so that he could tell if she ever tried to leave the house. He slept fully clothed with knives in his pockets in the event that she tried to escape while he was sleeping. There was a post where she said that to this day she is afraid that he will find her and kill her one day. If she was not even free to leave the house without being seriously injured or killed, how could she shop around for a legitimate crisis center? Besides, it states quite clearly in the post that she was honest with the crisis-pregnancy people in the hope that it might be an “out” for her, and they might actually help her.

  20. Why is it even legal to tell a person that they are causing their own abuse?

    For all of the crap they put her through she should have been given a lot more than a pram!

  21. And hopefully I am understanding this correctly when I say KUDOS to her for getting rid of the abusive jerk a la divorce (she mentions her EX husband)

  22. This really seems to me like they’ve let their hatred for women overtake their love for babies. They are aware that a woman who is physically or mentally abused has a much increased risk of miscarriage… right?

  23. In the comments, she explains the pram broke. I guess it was that cheap. Unsurprised! I think the illusion of care is the most alarming thing to me. Many women probably mistake the heavy amount of counseling and the medical-seeming instruments for actual prenatal care, but it sounds like she wasn’t getting any.

  24. Alyssa: I read around the rest of her blog, and in other posts she explains the type of relationship she had with her ex-husband. MASSIVE TRIGGER WARNING. Her ex-husband tried to throw their infant son in the fireplace and feed him to his feral dogs. He tried to throw her off a balcony when he realized it was too late for her to get an abortion. He had security cameras installed so that he could tell if she ever tried to leave the house. He slept fully clothed with knives in his pockets in the event that she tried to escape while he was sleeping. There was a post where she said that to this day she is afraid that he will find her and kill her one day. If she was not even free to leave the house without being seriously injured or killed, how could she shop around for a legitimate crisis center? Besides, it states quite clearly in the post that she was honest with the crisis-pregnancy people in the hope that it might be an “out” for her, and they might actually help her.

    Yeah, I started surfing around her blog (which is currently dormant) because it was so well-written and compelling, and she pretty well describes a life of severe physical and emotional abuse from her parents and first husband. In addition to the husband’s abuse, her mother sounds like a total nightmare and her father was an extreme enabler for her mother’s abusive behavior and gaslighting. She was basically groomed from an early age to accept abuse on her person and accept responsibility for bearing the abuse. The good news is that she seems to be in a stable, safe environment today, but it’s still heartbreaking.

  25. How verifiable is this story, though?

    Don’t get me wrong: I grew up in a radically Pentecostal setting, and I know these attitudes exist. I watched my mom be counseled to stay in a bad situation for several years. I don’t need this story to know that those attitudes exist. But even so, this loses me:

    “Spare the rod and spoil the child is meant for the wife as well in some more difficult cases,” they said….

    Well, not just that, but it’s a vivid example. There are elements that are pinging funny, and seem more designed to trigger readers than match what I’ve witnessed.

    There’s been a lot of invention of selves and experiences to make a point lately. I have to ask.

  26. Alyssa: it might be an “out” for her, and they might actually help her.

    Sometimes its hard to understand the depths they’ll go to…

  27. Ewww. My answer to accepting Jesus would be “I’m pretty comfortable with going to hell, thank you. I’m sure I’ll see you there”. Religion should NEVER justify domestic violence, but unfortunately, it does from my personal experience.

    And the pregnancy centers years ago offered counseling to me when I went for a free pregnancy test. Three ladies sat with me after a negative test and said “tell us about your father”. Ewww.

  28. That is so disgusting. I’m so glad to read she made it out of that relationship.
    Well, I did have my experience with a crisis pregnancy center (spoiler: it was awful) all typed up, but I guess this might not be the best place to share!
    After my experience I looked for some way to hold them accountable and could not find anything I could do.

  29. This issue of CPCs encouraging women to stay in abusive relationships for the “sake of the child” was actually highlighted in the fantastic documentary 12th & Delaware — it truly epitomizes how clearly these groups see women solely as incubators.

  30. If she was not even free to leave the house without being seriously injured or killed, how could she shop around for a legitimate crisis center?

    If that’s true, it would elevate those people at the phony crisis center from asshole enablers into accomplices. Wow. That’s even more despicable.

  32. That is just crazy. The woman shouldn’t be taking advantage of the “pro-life” crisis center, but on the other hand, she shouldn’t be told that she’s going to hell for not listening to her husband. I have such mixed feelings about this. Both parties are in the wrong.

  33. James: But that would be wrong. Someone might accidentally murder a Christian.

    Not a problem. “The faith of the Church is watered with the blood of the martyrs.” That’s for the real Christians. For the others, they just get where they’re already going that much faster.

    Bitter Scribe: Something I couldn’t get from that Salon piece…if this woman’s husband at that time was so abusive, why didn’t she try to get to a legitimate crisis center, staffed by decent human beings who would help her?

    Jadey, this question does not have to be victim-blaming – it’s the crucial question to ask if you want to understand the mental mechanisms that keep abuse victims from geting help. The question is basically asking about the Stockholm Syndrome.

    The whole thing reminds me of the old soup kitchen missions where you had to listen to some preaching and sing some hymns to get dinner. This is at least as bad, targetting a very vulnerable population.

  34. @Mercedes–I can’t prove the story’s real, but sadly, she’s not the first person I’ve heard saying that the “spare the rod” analogy has been applied to women too. Anecdotally, I knew a woman who grew up in a family where this mentality was used to justify abuse of both mother and child. The idea was that the father was the supreme ruler of the house and and anyone’s “insolence” was punished.

    Of course, I or my friend, could be making this up too. Or it really could be that there are asshats out there spouting this philosophy.

  35. @alynn

    I mean, who knew “pro-life” also mean pro-wife beatings?

    The entire ‘pro-life’ movement is about subjugating women and controlling their sexuality. Abortion is merely a bogeyman used to distract the sheep, to draw eyes away from the truth- that anti-choicers hate and fear women.

    Abusing someone will subjugate them pretty damn quickly, and for a long time.

  36. @Paraxeni Very true–I mean, as much as I vehemently support choice, my gut reaction is it’s a pretty big jump from “no abortion” to “beating women makes sense.” HOWEVER, when I actually consider what forced pregnancy means (ie the result of a complete repeal of abortion rights) I realize they’re opposite sides of the same coin.

  37. Hello to all!

    First, my blog is not dormant. But, this explains partially why my views for this post have gone through the roof. I really appreciate your comments, and I’m glad I found this here.

    Unfortunately, the story is very real. Not all of these organizations are like this. This particular one was associated with an evangelical ministry that had a very firm agenda where women in the home were concerned. I just managed to ask for help in the wrong place. I did find some excellent resources later on, mostly not faith-based, but some faith-based that helped me get out of the situation with the ex-husband.

    Currently, I am expected my 2nd child with my new husband who is the only father my son has ever known. The ex-husband is out of the picture and we have not seen him in 2 years. It’s been a great 2 years. I’ve been through alot of counseling and my son has too, and we’re doing very well now.

    Thank you,
    Darla

  38. “this question does not have to be victim-blaming – it’s the crucial question to ask if you want to understand the mental mechanisms that keep abuse victims from geting help. The question is basically asking about the Stockholm Syndrome.”

    It is victim blaming no matter how you slice it. The abuser is ignored while people question her actions. I don’t care if you give me the excuse that of course what he did is wrong and everyone knows that so you didn’t think you needed to say it. Well, no one says it (with the exception of a few people on some feminist spaces). Questioning the woman is all I ever hear because no one felt the need to condemn the abuser. It’s a given, they say.

    Guess what happens when all anyone ever says is “Why didn’t she leave? Her mistake is ______” They’ve helped create and perpetuate an environment that blames the victim and condones the violence against her without even realizing it. And yes, asking why she didn’t leave is pointing out what you think is a mistake she made. It is the exact same thing as rape culture.

    People talk, studies have been done. There are plenty of resources out there for people who want to know and understand the mindset of someone who doesn’t leave an abusive situation. I would think it’s common knowledge now. If people were curious about the reasons, they could look them up instead of JAQing off when a story about domestic abuse arises.

  39. Her story may be very likely, but I’m not sure it’s true. She admits to lying to strangers all the time in her bio, is writing a book, and it’s hard to make the events she details (overall, not from this post) line up right/make sense overall. On the other hand, it’s a blog, not a report, and she’s not obligated to dot every temporal “i.”

    In other words, I’m not sure that I would hold this up as a factual account to make a point about abortion politics. Those crisis centers are abhorrent enough on their own.

  40. She had referenced not “being allowed” out. I think this was her only chance to get help–I doubt her husband was in the room during the exam when they asked her if she felt unsafe at home. He may have been watching her 24/7–or she may have been in a mental place with all of the abuse that he could and did do it easily.

    The question about safety, asked away from her husband, was her chance. If they’d been able to hook her up with resources, she could have been out of there. Not only were they unprepared for a yes to their question, their ultimate answer was one that blamed her for her abuse.

    Bitter Scribe:
    Something I couldn’t get from that Salon piece…if this woman’s husband at that time was so abusive, why didn’t she try to get to a legitimate crisis center, staffed by decent human beings who would help her?

  41. chava: Her story may be very likely, but I’m not sure it’s true. She admits to lying to strangers all the time in her bio, is writing a book, and it’s hard to make the events she details (overall, not from this post) line up right/make sense overall. On the other hand, it’s a blog, not a report, and she’s not obligated to dot every temporal “i.”

    That’s what I thought. (Though I’m afraid Tom MacMasters has made me bloody cynical right now.)

  42. Anne: It is victim blaming no matter how you slice it. The abuser is ignored while people question her actions. I don’t care if you give me the excuse that of course what he did is wrong and everyone knows that so you didn’t think you needed to say it. Well, no one says it (with the exception of a few people on some feminist spaces). Questioning the woman is all I ever hear because no one felt the need to condemn the abuser. It’s a given, they say.

    That’s all very well if all you want to do is feel sorry for her or use her for a statistic, but if you want to help someone get out of a mess they have to understand how to do it. God forbid anyone “question” why someone gets trapped this way, God forbid they see if they are sabotaging themselves, because no one ever engages in any self-destructive behavior, no one ever has any programming for this kind of shit.

    Sheelzebub: She had referenced not “being allowed” out. I think this was her only chance to get help–I doubt her husband was in the room during the exam when they asked her if she felt unsafe at home. He may have been watching her 24/7–or she may have been in a mental place with all of the abuse that he could and did do it easily.

    Exactly. Present or absent he was in total control of her. She was not allowed out and she would not go out even if no one but she was keeping the door locked. This is exactly the kind of mechanism that has to be exposed. That’s the purpose of “question”ing.

  43. God forbid anyone “question” why someone gets trapped this way, God forbid they see if they are sabotaging themselves, because no one ever engages in any self-destructive behavior, no one ever has any programming for this kind of shit.

    And we all hear crickets chirping when these questions are asked of the (mostly) men who are doing the abusing. Asking the victim of abuse these questions doesn’t really do anything but make the questioner feel better. It certainly doesn’t actually keep someone from sabotaging [sic] their own lives. I would do just as much good to say to the victim: Hey! I see that you got your mind all fucked with – now that you’re mind is fucked, I think we should all encourage some self reflection so that you don’t allow mind fucking to happen again in your life. Just disregard your fucked mind and focus on your navel!

    Even the phrase “sabotaging themselves” leads so far away from the reality of abuse. From my perspective, it is nearly impossible for an individual to levy the same amount of physical and psychological trauma that an abuser does — mostly because self-inflicted trauma is recognized by the self prior to occurring. Abuse, on the other hand, is a triggered reaction, both volatile and unpredictable, with the trigger constantly shifting because it reflects the emotional imbalance of the abuser (and not the survival choices that the abused is making). Abuser’s almost always escalate and because they get such huge emotional/psychological rewards for their abuse, there is no incentive to scale back.

    And yet, we still fail to ask them to navel gaze. Why is that?

  45. Jim: it’s the crucial question to ask if you want to understand the mental mechanisms that keep abuse victims from geting help. The question is basically asking about the Stockholm Syndrome.

    Yeah, and questions have context. We’re not here to dissect her mental mechanisms – that research has already been done! We have long since figured out the answer to this question of why women stay in abusive situations. And often when we do ask it on large public forums, it’s used to dissect a person’s motivation, cast doubt on their suffering, and generally uphold the validity of abusing someone who doesn’t fight back in a socially prescribed manner. This is frankly a terrible place to ask that kind of question (not because Feministe is a bad place in general, but because I don’t the mods here are really in a position to handle a large, unsolicited, complicated discourse on a relatively open Internet forum – it’s no small task).

    I’m not making this shit up – we do it all the time. Why do we need to do it again? Hell, there’s a link posted @ 11 that goes the blog of a guy who apparently wrote a book on this stuff.

    (Also, the Stockholm Syndrome means something very specific that is not in evidence here – there’s no suggestion in her account that she stayed out of a sense of loyalty and devotion to her abuser. She may have at one point, but the indication in the present article is that she stayed out of fear and a lack of known options.)

  46. And, to be clear, my reaction is part a response to the fact that we are not even talking about abuse and its effects in general – we are talking about a specific woman and her life experiences and she is goddamned here. So, no, let’s not treat her like a lab experiment.

  47. Bitter Scribe: Something I couldn’t get from that Salon piece…if this woman’s husband at that time was so abusive, why didn’t she try to get to a legitimate crisis center, staffed by decent human beings who would help her?

    Just for clarification’s sake… my ex-husband drove me and remained in the waiting area every time I went. I really doubt I could have gotten him to drive me to a domestic violence shelter. I did, however, make repeated calls to the National Domestic Violence Hotline and found locations to go to, but I could never get out of his sight long enough to go. When I finally told him I was leaving, I woke up in the hospital. It was all about finding an opportunity to get out and finding the right people who would listen. It seems like the more extreme abuse you suffer through, the fewer people will actually believe you.

  48. Darla Carmichael: Just for clarification’s sake… my ex-husband drove me and remained in the waiting area every time I went. I really doubt I could have gotten him to drive me to a domestic violence shelter. I did, however, make repeated calls to the National Domestic Violence Hotline and found locations to go to, but I could never get out of his sight long enough to go. When I finally told him I was leaving, I woke up in the hospital. It was all about finding an opportunity to get out and finding the right people who would listen. It seems like the more extreme abuse you suffer through, the fewer people will actually believe you.

    I think a lot of people have a block against the truly horrifying.. it insults the senses less to think one person capable of lying about or exaggerating abuse than it does to comprehend the truly horrible shit another person may be capable of inflicting on others. It’s a means to rationalize, but it’s by no means excusable. I’m sorry to hear of all you had to go through.

  49. Stockholm Syndrome, my ass. I’m a domestic violence survivor. The number one reason domestic violence victims don’t leave? Because their abuser would know where to find them. For me, that place was “work”. As in, despite Hollywood stereotypes about who victims of domestic violence are, most of us work. I had to formulate an escape plan that didn’t involve quitting work—because leaving the apprenticeship was not an option for me. I wanted a *future*, too. The apprenticeship was my future.

    Can you “get” why some people may be reluctant to quit work, or drop out of college in order to escape? Why we perform ‘damage control’ in the meantime, until we can get out? Most of the assistance available to abused people still assumes a financially as well as emotionally dependent person; someone who needs an in-house “rehab”—and while some folks fit that profile, others don’t. In the meantime, keeping the myth of the “Stockholm Syndrome” alive precludes the ability to envision and create other models and means for helping those who don’t fit that profile with the *practical ability* to ensure physical safety for themselves and their family.

    What is needed instead of platitudes or assumptions: listening to the voices of survivors.

  50. Also, OB offices are (sometimes) a great place to get DV information. Domestic violence often begins or escalates with pregnancy. Great DV programs coordinate with OBs in the area to provide support. Drs in general can be great allies in helping women who are in highly abusive relationships get out. I’ve actually counseled clients in doctors offices for that reason. (Also, in their child’s school and once in the managers office of a Walmart – props to that manager for letting total strangers borrow his office for half an hour.) With victims of domestic violence you go where they can get to safely.

  51. Look. The call for self-reflection is all well and good, but the problem is, when you’ve been worn down by constant and insidious emotional, verbal, and psychological abuse (let ALONE physical abuse–those three are usually in play before the abuser hits or commits any physical assault); when your abuser is seen as a nice guy; when you bring up the shit he does and you’re dismissed; when you’re being gaslighted; when you’re being woken up at 3:00 and interrogated (and so operating on little sleep) it’s not actually helpful to be asked what ways you self-sabatoged, why you bought into this mindset, or whatever. It just comes back to “You’re at fault, you had a part in this, therefore you deserved it.”

    I’ve never been hit, though I’ve been afraid to leave and I was in an emotionally abusive relationship. I’ve gotta say, that attitude that I needed self-reflection and to look at what *I* did (because it’s not like I was blamed and held responsible for every goddamn thing that went wrong in his day anyway) made things a fuck of a lot worse. It made me LESS likely to leave.

    Now. Let’s add physical abuse to the mix–not only are you battered mentally and emotionally, but you’re actually afraid for your physical safety. You’ve actually been physically assaulted. And yet, instead of safety, you get “Well, why didn’t you leave” “Some women love that stuff” and more bullshit. More dismissive attitudes. Which don’t actually help.

    Now, maybe that’s me victim-tripping or as misogynist MRA’s like to say, damseling, but at this point I don’t give a fuck.

  52. Also, also…my brain has rotted such that the only positive adjective I know is “great.”

  53. “That’s all very well if all you want to do is feel sorry for her or use her for a statistic, but if you want to help someone get out of a mess they have to understand how to do it.”

    Wow.
    You clearly didn’t read a word of what I wrote. Get over your knee-jerk defensiveness right now and take in what people have told you. Read it over and over and over if you need to.

    Sorry everyone else for derailing. I just can’t let stuff like that go when I see it.

  54. Firstly, Ms. Charmichael, thank you for sharing that story, and my apologies if the ignorance and unexamined privilege of some of the comments made you feel worse in any way. I am concerned that you might have felt the need to explain *yourself*, and that shit is just not cool. I am deeply sorry you had to go through any of what you described, and truly moved by your resiliancy. I’m so happy that you are in a better place, and best wishes to you and your family.

    Secondly, there is a guideline I find useful when having discussions about oppression – and I think we can all agree that domestic violence and lack of bodily autonomy are oppressions, yes?

    If you, the person who is not experiencing the oppression under discussion, are about to say or write a phrase that has the structure “Hey, $_Marginalized Person, why didn’t you just $_X?”, instead consider that YOU should be excercising better judgement by instantly doing some shut the fuck ups!!!!!!

    I hold that questions about the barriers that enforce marginalization are much better phrased by asking questions about the fucking barriers, rather than questioning those stuck outside them.

  55. Darla, thanks for speaking up. I am so sorry for the brutal things your ex husband did to you.

    I wish I could kill him with my bare hands. Men like him don’t deserve to live.

    A few people (namely Jim) have been curious as to why you stayed with him. In response, some of the other commenters here have criticized this as “victim blaming” and suggested that if we question anyone we should question your ex-husband as to why he was doing that.

    I want to ask you, Darla, do you think that asking your ex-husband why he abused you would do any good? Would we learn anything?

    I tend to think that the type of men who abuse the women in their lives are both beyond redemption, unable to change, and most importantly, undeserving of a “voice.” What do you think?

  56. Thank you, IrishUp.

    While I do feel very awkward at being dissected in some cases, I feel that it is important to answer all questions honestly and respectfully try to educate others so that they know just how these situations can occur and how to watch for possible indicators for friends, family members and co-workers. The support one receiving immediately after exiting the situation is key to make sure it is permanent, and the most dangerous time in a victim’s life is immediately after he or she leaves. I am more than happy to answer any questions.

    I do, however, agree that people saying “If I were you, I would have done x, y and z” or “Why didn’t you just do a and b” very unhelpful. Something that @La Luba brought up was one of things that really helped me from saying those things as well and constantly blaming myself… I knew that if I did x, y, z, a or b – I was going to die. To some that might seem like an overexaggeration, but truly, that is exactly how I felt. And, in all the group therapy sessions I’ve been in with many survivors of domestic violence, that is a very similar common thread we all hold.

    And, as several commenters pointed out, I was brought up in an abusive environment. It took quite a bit of time (and I’m still in the process) to figure out what a “good” and “healthy” relationship really look like. While it might seem obvious to most of you, I honestly did not know that some behaviors were not the norm. When I reached out for help from my ex-husband’s mother, as soon as I said that he was not the first man to hit me – I was told that it must be something I’m bringing on myself, if it was recurring. It took me a long time to realize that wasn’t true.

  57. EasilyEnthused:
    I want to ask you, Darla, do you think that asking your ex-husband why he abused you would do any good? Would we learn anything?

    I tend to think that the type of men who abuse the women in their lives are both beyond redemption, unable to change, and most importantly, undeserving of a “voice.” What do you think?

    I have routinely ask him this question as well. Why? But, unfortunately, his answer won’t help any of us. His response was
    “It never happened.” Admittedly, he has a serious drinking problem, and while I don’t doubt he had blackouts – he claims that he never remembers any instances of violence. The cameras were there for my protection. And I was just constantly losing my keys and phone – not him taking them from me. I really wish I could understand him, but I just can’t. The blackout excuse is apparently very common from what I understand of abusers.

    I really can’t answer about him being worthy of redemption. My feelings are so mixed about the whole situation, especially with him being unwilling to really take any responsibility for his actions. It is so easy for me to judge others’ abusers, but I know that there was once a reason I married him and even decided to have a child with him. I think he is beyond repair, but part of me wishes him the best. I struggle with really being able to encapsulate my emotions because they are all over the board. I know that I do not ever want him anywhere near my son or me ever again though.

    I hope this answers your questions. I know I’ve written more thoroughly on this topic on my blog at some point.

  58. http://open.salon.com/blog/tellingtosca/2011/05/19/the_other_pregnancy_1
    “The Other Pregnancy”

    http://open.salon.com/blog/tellingtosca/2011/04/19/whoring_for_child_support
    “Whoring for Child Support”

    http://open.salon.com/blog/tellingtosca/2011/03/14/what_i_miss_about_being_a_single_mom
    “What I Miss About Being a Single Mom”

    http://open.salon.com/blog/tellingtosca/2011/04/22/the_details_that_i_couldnt_tell
    “The Details I Couldn’t Tell”

    http://open.salon.com/blog/tellingtosca/2011/05/13/standing_up_for_myself_its_about_damn_time
    “Standing Up For Myself, It’s About Damn Time”

    http://open.salon.com/blog/tellingtosca/2011/03/28/the_worst_by_far
    “The Worst By Far”

    Above are the blog entries specifically about my ex-husband, which might help to explain the situation more and shine a light on some holes. I never claim to have done the right thing in some cases, but I did what I had to at the time to survive.

  59. My abusive ex also claimed that he couldn’t remember what he had said/done because of drinking related black outs. Funny how he never had a problem remembering anything else he had done while drunk.

  60. Jadey: Yeah, and questions have context. We’re not here to dissect her mental mechanisms – that research has already been done! We have long since figured out the answer to this question of why women stay in abusive situations. And often when we do ask it on large public forums, it’s used to dissect a person’s motivation, cast doubt on their suffering, and generally uphold the validity of abusing someone who doesn’t fight back in a socially prescribed manner. This is frankly a terrible place to ask that kind of question (not because Feministe is a bad place in general, but because I don’t the mods here are really in a position to handle a large, unsolicited, complicated discourse on a relatively open Internet forum – it’s no small task).

    Ok. That convinces me.

  61. If it helps at all – my first “real” boyfriend, an ex who was abusive but would do things so quickly and then deny it, that I began to doubt that I had any grasp of reality… he came back nearly ten years later to apologize to me. His reason for the violence – he just didn’t know how to communicate with me. I was frustrating and he just couldn’t get him point across with mere words. It’s not the best response, but at least it was it’s some insight in to the mind of an abuser.

  62. Anne: Wow.
    You clearly didn’t read a word of what I wrote. Get over your knee-jerk defensiveness right now and take in what people have told you. Read it over and over and over if you need to.

    You need to get over your need to lecture people on what they need to get over. I was not speaking out of defensiveness; I was speaking out of my own experience with this crap. Never mind. Probably wasted on you.

  64. Darla Carmichael: I have routinely ask him this question as well. Why? But, unfortunately, his answer won’t help any of us. His response was “It never happened.” Admittedly, he has a serious drinking problem, and while I don’t doubt he had blackouts – he claims that he never remembers any instances of violence. The cameras were there for my protection. And I was just constantly losing my keys and phone – not him taking them from me. I really wish I could understand him, but I just can’t. The blackout excuse is apparently very common from what I understand of abusers.

    debbie: My abusive ex also claimed that he couldn’t remember what he had said/done because of drinking related black outs. Funny how he never had a problem remembering anything else he had done while drunk.

    Just chiming in on this point. I’m heavily involved in the recovery community on the friends and family side, and this type of gaslighting is extremely common among substance abusers that are also DV-perps. It knocks the abused off kilter so that she has occasion enough to doubt her own recollection of events that all events become he-said-she-said in that abusive environment even when there is obvious evidence that he is abusing her, emptying the bank account, controlling her finances, hiding her purse and car keys, alienating her family and friends, etc etc etc. It’s something that gets discussed endlessly in Al-Anon.

    And in relationships, especially with addicts (I know since I’m married to one), you also get caught up in the Jekyll and Hyde of the sober person you love and the using person you don’t. It’s all the same person, but in the progression of addiction, so many boundaries get crossed, financially, personally, emotionally, politically, that before you realize it your whole life is falling apart.

    Just adding my two cents to the “why didn’t she leave” bullshit.

    Also happened to see this HBO doc on domestic violence that is more than worthwhile to any interested party: “Every Fucking Day of my Life.” Trailer at the link, extreme trigger warning.

  65. Jim,
    If you had any experience you wouldn’t have said what you said.
    I was abused. My father beat the living shit out of me every day of my life until I was 17. Then I found myself in three abusive relationships. One of whom raped me.
    So you can go F*(& yourself.

  66. Also: Thank you Darla for taking part in this conversation. It’s extremely shitty to be drawn in and have to defend yourself against speculation on the abuse you suffered over and over and over again. I read through quite a bit of your blog after coming across this particular post and really enjoyed it (despite the dark material). Also, congratulations from one heavily pregnant lady to another. 🙂

  67. Thank you, Florence. I can’t wait to get this bun out of the oven. 🙂 Congratulations on your little one as well.

    I think overall having this discuss is healthy and educational. I hope my presence and availability to clear up any misunderstanding or fill in any holes has made it more productive in some way.

  69. Darla Carmichael:
    I never claim to have done the right thing in some cases, but I did what I had to at the time to survive.

    Screw what any one else says. When it comes down to it, fuck the moralizing bullshit. You survived. Damn good job.

  70. I don’t believe in Clinton’s“Safe, legal, and rare.” I think the right of a woman to own her own body is complete.

    I would like to respond just to this, because I believe it is an often misunderstood and misrepresented policy.

    It has always been my understanding that the idea is not to deny women agency over their bodies, but to make the personal agency so complete that we don’t NEED so many abortions – because right now, we do. Safe, Legal, Rare isn’t a means of denying women the right to abort, but improving access to and education on birth control for men and women so that fewer abortions need to be performed overall. At the other end of the scale, it means improving access to social services like counselling, education, financial help, medical care, childcare, employment counselling, and community support for parents so that nobody feels they have to abort because having a kid will ruin their future.

    Nobody should have to fear choosing abortion OR parenting, if it’s what they want. Nobody should be shamed into OR out of getting an abortion. Women should be free to make the choice to have a kid or not according to their preference, rather than according to a social narrative that punishes women for having sex no matter what the outcome is.

    SLR covers a whole spectrum of secular humanist policy to improve the lives of EVERYONE, it’s not meant to be a descriptive for picking and choosing who gets to have an abortion. The “rare” part is meant to be a free choice, not an imposition.

  71. Darla, I tried to leave this comment on your blog but I can’t sign in to Open Salon for some reason. The Jill commenting on your blog is Jill Stanek, a pro-life blogger who is particularly gross to people she perceives to have a pro-choice agenda (whether or not you actually do or don’t isn’t important to her). The bloggers here have pointed out Stanek’s nasty racism and anti-woman agenda more than a few times so she probably has you pegged as a Feministe darling. She and the other handful of people commenting on your site today are associated with a handful of pro-life bloggers who use blogs like Feministe to provide content for themselves, and they can be really awful to regular people who are just telling their own stories. If you have control over the comments at OS (don’t know if you do or what your moderation policy is) I would moderate their comments heavily for the next few days.

  72. Just for clarification’s sake… my ex-husband drove me and remained in the waiting area every time I went.

    Oh my God. So those Christian jerks weren’t just enablers…they were accomplices. Your ex probably knew they’d tell you that bullshit.

    I did not wish to cast doubt in any way on the fact of your abuse. It was very stupid of me to have started my first post with “If.” My apologies.

  73. Bitter Scribe:
    Just for clarification’s sake… my ex-husband drove me and remained in the waiting area every time I went.

    Oh my God. So those Christian jerks weren’t just enablers…they were accomplices. Your ex probably knew they’d tell you that bullshit.

    I did not wish to cast doubt in any way on the fact of your abuse. It was very stupid of me to have started my first post with “If.” My apologies.

    I wonder if those people at the clinic will ever have a moment of clarity in their lives and realize they actively facilitated domestic abuse.

    I always wonder in those sorts of situations if they just don’t care about the abuse or if they are unable to see what they are doing AS abuse because they have been indoctrinated by a sick and sadistic worldview that leaves them incapable of rational thought.

    In my ignorance, before I had come to experience gender studies and actual testimonials of women who had been abused, I often wondered why women stayed with abusers. I asked as much when my friends had these kind of discussions. All my friends did. It makes me feel a little bit ill that I literally enabled people to ignore this, and that is what every single discussion on this topic that does not further educate people to support victims and not blame them does.

  74. Darla, thank you for taking the time to respond, and I want you to know I wish you the very best!

    Your undoubted sacrifice in reliving that abuse to tell us your story is a selfless act by someone who has already given too much – you are truly a great soul.

  75. “I wonder if those people at the clinic will ever have a moment of clarity in their lives and realize they actively facilitated domestic abuse. ”

    You are projecting your humanity and sense of morality onto people who possess neither. These people are filled with psychotic rage, it is a mistake to assume any good intentions or underestimate what they are capable of. These are the folks who gleefully lit the fires in Salem and would do so now if they could get away with it.

  76. Jim: You need to get over your need to lecture people on what they need to get over. I was not speaking out of defensiveness; I was speaking out of my own experience with this crap. Never mind. Probably wasted on you.

    Funny how you think that you have the right to speak to her this way when YOU were the one who was completely in the wrong.

    I wonder if it has anything to do with her tone and the fact that she didn’t hold your hand through your revelation that asking why an abuse victim would continue to allow her abuser to hurt her isn’t a particularly useful question.

  77. I’d be a lot less hard on Christians if their G*d didn’t hate women so much. My reasons for not joining a church are the same reason I shy away from a relationship: I don’t want to be mistaken for a doormat.

  78. Lauren,

    I appreciate your heads up and am already aware of the bashing. I am tried to take a very non-biased stance in the minimal replies I have made, but it feels like there is no reasoning. No matter what I say, I was scawffed at for asking to be treated a human being and somehow loosely connected to every abortion ever performed.

    Hopefully, these people will go away soon, and stop what is quickly becoming a re-victimization in their claims that range from my obviously never in an abusive marriage to my being some sort of underground investigator for the pro-choice movement.

    Oh well. Thank you all,
    Darla

  79. First, wow. The people are the center are kinda crazy and jerks. Secondly, I’d considering doing it for free stuff. Do you know how much an ultrasound costs?!

  80. Well, I read Darla’s follow up post and saw one of Feministe’s banned trolls living down to the reputation she built here. Darla, if you’re still reading this, know that it doesn’t matter if you had the evidence videotaped, if the counselors themselves said they did this, and if your ex publicly declared that he was an abusive asshole. Those people will call you a liar (or say you were somehow asking for it) because they’re doucherockets. Engaging with them is like engaging with dogshit you stepped in–the only thing that will happen when you do that is that you’ll feel sick and the shit will get everywhere.

  81. Thank you, Sheelzebub. I’m really letting it roll off of me at this point. It’s just making me extremely self-righteous, which might be a good thing. I’m tempted to write a satirical pro-abortion piece just to mess with them, but I’ve calmed myself quite a bit. It’s just some very bad timing with a lot of other stresses right now. These people are really showing their true colors, and I’m going to leave up their comments. It’s so hard for me to come to terms with not everyone being rational, but obviously, especially from the nonsense spouted from the one you mention, people with mental illnesses gravitate naturally to extremist causes.

  82. Darla Carmichael: people with mental illnesses gravitate naturally to extremist causes.

    Darla, I really appreciated your story and your strength and getting out of the relationships you did, but that quote right there? As someone with mental illness, just, no.

  83. Grogette,
    I am so sorry to offend you. That really was not my attention. The people being noted are definitely suffering from an extreme form of delusion and mass hysteria. My wording was defensive, but it was never intended to group all people with mental illness together in such a way. Please accept my apologies. I really meant no ill will. I should have phrased it differently to more exactly get my meaning across.

  84. Yes, it’s worth asking the abusers why they do it. As sick as their responses may be, it provides insight into their thought processes.

    The most telling thing my abusive ex ever said to me was “men don’t ENJOY hitting their wives, you know!” Abusers are about control; in his case, whenever he hit me it was because I was showing some sign of independant action or thought. So of course he didn’t “enjoy” hitting me-it meant I’d gotten out of his control.

    Maybe, just maybe, if we turn the questions on the abusers instead of the abused, we can develop prevention programs for them. It’s not enough to tell people “don’t get abused”-why not tell people “don’t abuse” ?!

  85. Anne: If you had any experience you wouldn’t have said what you said.
    I was abused. My father beat the living shit out of me every day of my life until I was 17. Then I found myself in three abusive relationships. One of whom raped me.
    So you can go F*(& yourself.

    You stupid animal. I HAVE experience in this, 11 years of it. But carry on with your sexist assumptions. The only excuse for that worthless piece of filth I married to have been born is the beautiful son she bore. And she had the entire weight of the patriarchal family court system and the state behind her to do it, and she knew it. So don’t lecture me on what experience I have or don’t have, you self-righteous, ignorant p*g.

  86. Jess P:
    First, wow. The people are the center are kinda crazy and jerks. Secondly, I’d considering doing it for free stuff. Do you know how much an ultrasound costs?!

    Word of warning: they’re notorious for having people doing the ultrasounds who aren’t qualified to do jackshit aside from smear goop on your belly, push a wand around, and lie about how your 8-week-old fetus looks just like mommy.

  87. Jim: You stupid animal. I HAVE experience in this, 11 years of it. But carry on with your sexist assumptions. The only excuse for that worthless piece of filth I married to have been born is the beautiful son she bore. And she had the entire weight of the patriarchal family court system and the state behind her to do it, and she knew it. So don’t lecture me on what experience I have or don’t have, you self-righteous, ignorant p*g.

    Wow. There are no words.

  89. Oh, and Jim? I’m not surprised to see this behavior from you. You’ve lied about what I’ve said in the past, you’ve lectured women here on privilege while you’ve thrown yours around, you’ve used incredibly misogynist dogwhistles with calling out someone as a cover. I mean, really–I can list ten female friends who’ve been royally fucked over by the court system, who were told they were alienating their kids from their fathers when they pointed out their husbands were abusing them (with police records no less). Whose abusive ex-husbands got partial or full custody.

    I’m sorry you went through abuse. Other people here went through it as well and we explained, over and over, why your snotty comments about “just feeling sorry for people” and why survivors should examine their own part in it was not helpful. Calling a fellow abuse survivor an animal and a pig because she got just as pissed at what you said as the rest of us did? Well fuck right off with that.

  90. The CPC is directly across the street from the abortion clinic in my city, and the clinic protesters will often tell latinas and asians with poor english skills that the CPC is the real clinic so they miss their appointment times. Considering the 24 hour waiting period and that many of these folks are low income and driving in from out of town, I consider CPCs some of the most scum sucking evil group of people in america and I hope they choke.

  91. Jim: You stupid animal. I HAVE experience in this, 11 years of it. But carry on with your sexist assumptions. The only excuse for that worthless piece of filth I married to have been born is the beautiful son she bore. And she had the entire weight of the patriarchal family court system and the state behind her to do it, and she knew it. So don’t lecture me on what experience I have or don’t have, you self-righteous, ignorant p*g.

    Way too far. Not okay. If you can’t keep it together, just don’t engage, but this is unacceptable.

  92. Fuck. I’m not a domestic abuse survivor, and I was triggered as hell by Jim’s use of “stupid animal” and “pig”. Fuck you Jim. You don’t sound that much better than a domestic abuser.

  93. Girl from Ontario:
    Fuck. I’m not a domestic abuse survivor, and I was triggered as hell by Jim’s use of “stupid animal” and “pig”. Fuck you Jim. You don’t sound that much better than a domestic abuser.

    Yep, pig being one of the things my domestic abuser father used to call my mom. Fuck you Jim indeed.

  95. Further to comments 75 and 79 upthread, being an unpleasant/ bigoted person is not the same as being mentally ill. Let’s not conflate the two.

  96. Skye:
    Yes,it’s worth asking the abusers why they do it. As sick as their responses may be,it provides insight into their thought processes.

    The most telling thing my abusive ex ever said to me was “men don’t ENJOY hitting their wives, you know!”Abusers are about control; in his case, whenever he hit me it was because I was showing some sign of independant action or thought.So of course he didn’t “enjoy” hitting me-it meant I’d gotten out of his control.

    Maybe, just maybe,if we turn the questions on the abusers instead of the abused,we can develop prevention programs for them.It’s not enough to tell people “don’t get abused”-why not tell people “don’t abuse” ?!

    I think you may have a point there. In the same way we try to help drug dependents because we don’t regard them as criminals but patients, we should also try to look at this problem on a different perspective and not keep pointing fingers as to who is at fault, the abuser or the abused.

  97. jmyap: I think you may have a point there. In the same way we try to help drug dependents because we don’t regard them as criminals but patients, we should also try to look at this problem on a different perspective and not keep pointing fingers as to who is at fault, the abuser or the abused.

    I don’t think that’s what Skye was saying at all. Seriously, the abuser is not at fault? Someone using drugs isn’t hurting someone (other than themselves, and even then, not always) unless they’re committing crime to further addiction. An abuser is by definition hurting someone else. They are at fault, full stop. Now I agree that society should probably be looking at different ways of treating abusers but no, I have zero problem pointing fingers at someone who abuses someone else.

  98. Someone using drugs isn’t hurting someone (other than themselves, and even then, not always) unless they’re committing crime to further addiction.

    Tell that to kids whose parents abuse drugs, including alcohol.

  100. Of course the abuser is always at fault.

    I believe wholeheartedly that doctors need a better understanding of how an abuser’s brain works. Not because they deserve compassion, but because then we can develop better ways of treating abusers.

    Keep fighting for women trapped in abusive relationships and keep telling people that abuse is never acceptible. But we need to be more vocal about telling abusers the same thing.

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