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Wisconsin: The fight isn’t over yet

This is a guest-post by April Lukes-Streich. April is a blogger and activist from Minneapolis, Minnesota. After spending years toiling in the cubefarms of various banks in Minnesota explaining overdraft fees and investigating ATM fraud, April liberated herself from the monotony and is now an (intentionally) unemployed student, waiting for the perfect activist job to make its presence known. April can be found at her blog, ethecofem, where she writes about gender, LGBT issues, and consumer rights, among other things. You can also follow her on Twitter.

A group of protesters mill around, wearing winter clothing and holding up signs. There's a US flag flying in the background.
This past weekend, I had the opportunity to join a couple friends for a short road trip to Madison, Wisconsin for the rally against Walker’s assault on workers’ rights on March 12, and to welcome back the 14 Democratic State legislators, who fled to Illinois in an attempt to stop the assault on workers’ rights by denying the legislature the required quorum needed to vote on the bill that was sure to pass due to the newly-elected Republican majority.  The turnout at the rally was huge.  And while I’m used to so-called “Minnesota Nice” (read: passive-aggression), never before have I encountered such a kind and happy group of incredibly angry people.  And I can understand; it was hard to wipe the giant grin off of my own face while I was there.  The sheer number of people coming together, people of all ages, from all walks of life, and from several surrounding states was overwhelming and brought tears to my eyes.  I’m normally the kinda gal who keeps to herself in public, but I couldn’t help but look up and smile, wave, or say hello to fellow protesters and passers-by around me.  While it was my first time in Madison, I’ve never felt more at home.

A gloved hand is holding up a black sign with taped-on white pieces of paper with black writing on them: 'Walker converted me! Now I'm a DEMOCRAT'. There is a tall building behind, and a blonde head in the foreground.Wisconsin was the first state in the US to provide collective bargaining rights to public employees, back in 1959, so it should come as no surprise that they are among the loudest to fight for their right to keep those very rights.  And even though the 14 Democrats and the State workers didn’t win this battle (although, keep your ears peeled, as the method used to pass the modified legislation was likely illegal), the war wages on in the Midwest– the heart of working class America.  Not only are there similar labor-busting battles waging in Ohio, Indiana, and other states, Michigan governor Rick Snyder has managed to quietly get passed several pieces of dangerous legislation that will essentially allow Michigan cities and towns to be completely taken over by corporations, should they be declared to be in a state of fiscal emergency.  Rachel Maddow discussed this on her show last Tuesday:

“Gov. Rick Snyder’s budget in Michigan is expected to cut aid to cities and towns so much that a lot of cities and towns in Michigan are expected to be in dire financial straits. Right now, Gov. Snyder is pushing a bill that would give himself, Gov. Snyder and his administration, the power to declare any town or school district to be in a financial emergency. If a town was declared by the governor and his administration to be in a financial emergency they would get to put somebody in charge of that town, and they want to give that emergency manager that they just put in charge of the town the power to, “reject, modify, or terminate any contracts that the town may have entered in to, including any collective bargaining agreements.” 
“This emergency person also gets the power under the bill to suspend or dismiss elected officials. Think about that for a second. Doesn’t matter who you voted for in Michigan. Doesn’t matter who you elected. Your elected local government can be dismissed at will. The emergency person sent in by the Rick Snyder administration could recommend that a school district be absorbed into another school district. That emergency person is also granted power specifically to disincorporate or dissolve entire city governments.”

Make no mistake about it; not only is the GOP engaged in a full-on assault on women’s rights, they’re wasting no time coming after everyone else, too.  And who better to start with than the only hope the Democratic party has left since the Citizens United ruling: unions.

More protesters milling around. In the foreground, one is handling a green drum on which the words 'Scott,' 'is' and 'dung' are visible, the rest obscured by the glare of sunlight.Because no matter how many Republicans and well-meaning Democrats and even self-identified progressives want to complain about how unions are run, corruption within them, or their supposed incompetence, the fact is, as long as we remain in a system where workers and employers have competing goals, we need unions.  And frankly, with reports coming out every week about how corporate profits and productivity are up and private sector hiring remains stagnant, I’m sick and tired of hearing about how much more money public sector employees make compared to their private sector counterparts (see this article in the NYT for a good analysis), and how union employees’ striking over better working conditions and health care greedy and lazy.  It’s time we flip the dialog, and instead of getting angry that public sector employees are actually being treated decently, let’s ask private sector employers why they refuse to show their employees the same respect.

More protesters. The sign centred in the photograph is a picture of a man's head attached to a cartoon body with its pants on fire. These are on a cardboard backing, which has the caption 'It's A Fiscal Issue!'One thing that these protests and the other various State capitol occupations is proving is that, even if we don’t win every individual battle, we’re remembering how important it is for us to actually get out and fight, as presently as possible.  Until now, I’d forgotten that the Capitol is a public building.  I’d forgotten that it is my right to peacefully protest and petition my government.  I’d forgotten that I can do more than send over an electronic petition to my Congressman who probably won’t read it (although, online petitions and other “virtual” actions are certainly useful).  It’s as if, until now, since the massive protests in the Middle East began and spread in various forms to the US and elsewhere, that we progressives in the United States have forgotten that democracy and fighting for the rights of marginalized people is messy work, and tiring work.  And we’ve forgotten that it’s often more worthwhile to get out and do it in person if we can, where they can’t ignore us.

A picture of a street leading to the capitol. There's a street sign saying 'Left lane must turn left' in capital letters, with the 'must' in bold.It’s well-known that the most apathetic non-voters here in the US are probably more aligned with the left than the right.  And, obviously, the right continues to bank on that every election season.  But getting out to vote?  It’s only one piece of the larger puzzle.  We have to keep being loud, and present.  Don’t forget that our various State capitol building are our houses.  And the streets surrounding it are our streets.  And our elected officials are our employees, because it’s our job to hire and fire them.  When it comes to politics in the United States, I’m not usually very optimistic.  But, right now, since the demonstrations in Egypt and through my trip to Madison, I feel very confident that we’re finally waking up, and that we might start seeing some real progressive change in the coming years.  Just so long as we keep on fighting!

Keep an eye on your state legislators.  You know where to go!


63 thoughts on Wisconsin: The fight isn’t over yet

  1. Great to see your post here, April. Your tweets from Wisconsin protests made a huge difference. What you are doing matters to all of us around the country. This is the kind of activism that this country needs now more than ever.

    Sorry to be gushing but I really admire people like April.

  2. I’d like to offer a different perspective. Because of my little sister’s experiences (she’s a college student), I really DON’T admire people like April (nothing personal). My sister is not scholarship-laden/rich enough to be ‘intentionally unemployed’ – she works as a page at the Capitol Building in Wisconsin. A page is basically a ‘gopher’ or runner, delivering things from one state building/room to another (many things are delivered amongst Capitol offices, and many state buildings are within a block or two of the Capitol and packages are just hand-delivered).

    The experiences my sister has described make my skin crawl: she, a nonpartisan employee (actually a member of the College Dems but nobody asked her that!), has experienced the worst work harrassment ever. She has been sexually harrassed nearly every day, she’s described to her friends and to me, groped at, grabbed, lunged at by a man from AFSCME with liquor dripping off his breath, and generally just prevented from doing her job. The police were too busy controlling the crowds, yet refusing to make arrests when her fellow pages were sexually harrassed too, because this was a ‘peaceful protest’. And she didn’t do anything to cause or prevent anything. And she can’t do anything to cause or prevent anything. She has to do her job, but she was blocked by crowds and tripped by air mattresses and crockpots, and she still has ringing in her ears from the gleefully-sold vuvuzelas.

    Why should a woman be unable to do her job and do her homework and study at Helen C White when her fellow but MALE pages didn’t experience near this level of harrassment. She’s not ok with this, and frankly as her older sister, I’M not going to openly express admiration for people who instigate these crowd situations that harrass my sister.

    Yes, that sounds personal, but for me, it is personal and the personal is political.

  3. In short, I think that the people who really admire people like April OR Wisconsin’s governor have not been there. Have not had to experience the chaos and harrassment both sides caused – especially for the innocent.

  4. In short, I think that the people who really admire people like April OR Wisconsin’s governor have not been there. Have not had to experience the chaos and harrassment both sides caused – especially for the innocent.

    1. Totally Jes. Like the Egyptian revolution — the whole thing is completely terrible and all of the people who protested were awful, because there was sexual harassment.

  5. @Jill –

    Certainly not. That would be foolish.

    Also foolish would be the unmitigated, unqualified praise or blame seen here for either side. As I just saw praise for the assaulters (the few that assaulted under the ‘protester’ headline at any rate), I attempted to provide more facts, those relayed to me by a person who was assaulted.

    I’m not saying all the people who protested were awful. NO ONE should say all the people who protested were great, and I got that vibe from the OP and some comments (Chally, Clarissa).

    After all – the OP is a post based on one’s experiences. I provided my sister’s – another one’s experiences.

  6. @ Chally –

    I know. But hearing such unqualified praise of anything that was done by a group which included those particular AFSCME individuals who sexually assaulted my sister is…uncomfortable…for a big sister to take.

  7. Minor correction on the douchey Snyder policy here in Michigan: they removed the part about a *corporation* being able to take over a local government. Now the Emergency Financial Manager has to be an individual person. It’s still basically the same anti-democratic bullshit, of course.

  8. I was there as well, and I agree with most of what’s said in the post. I agree that the fight isn’t over- but there needs to be a more probing discussion about what the next step forward is going to be. The recall efforts are a good thing- but they won’t materialize for another year or more. But public employees are being screwed right now- teachers are being forced to accept awful concessions in a rotten contract, whereas thousands more are going to be facing layoffs, speed-ups, wage cuts and more in the weeks to come. There is no reason to let all the wind out of the sails here- what has inspired everyone about WI has nothing to do with the recall effort, and everything to do with the massive demonstrations attended by ordinary people looking to fight back against blatant class war from above. We need to start talking about job actions and strikes (in combination with more large demonstrations) as a way to collectively push the struggle forward. There’s no reason to sit down and let our “leaders” take over. We started this thing, and we can finish it together if we’re willing to stick together.

    See:
    http://pink-scare.blogspot.com/2011/03/poor-oppressed-rich.html

    http://socialistworker.org/2011/03/14/struggle-will-continue

    http://socialistworker.org/2011/03/16/wisconsin-and-whats-to-come

  9. Jes -You know, I’m sorry that your sister and others had to go through what they did. In crowds that large, there are bound to be a few folks who take advantage of the situation to pull some nasty actions. I have seen a few rotten things happen in the middle of large demonstrations myself, so yes, it’s false to say everyone was totally on their best behavior.

    But your comments make me wonder if you think people should have stayed home. Or if you believe that things should always be quiet and orderly, even when great injustice is occurring. Or if maybe you’re trying to disagree with the protests all together, but don’t want to say so. There is no excuse for sexual harassment, but your comments about the stuff blocking doors, the noise of the protests, and the rest are troubling to me.

    When government leaders choose to do something injust, those who work for that government better be ready to deal with some consequences. Your sister and her co-workers deserve to be free from sexual harassment, but they can’t expect things to be easy going, quiet, and orderly under the current circumstances.

    It could have been a hell of a lot worse, as well – but the vast majority of people were acting non-violently and respectful. Maybe you ought to consider that.

  10. Nathan, I think part of the point was that her sister has nothing to do with the bad things the government is doing. She should absolutely not have to “be ready to deal with some consequences.” She didn’t do anything wrong.

    Protesting is worthwhile – targeting innocents is not.

  11. Sara: Nathan, I think part of the point was that her sister has nothing to do with the bad things the government is doing. She should absolutely not have to “be ready to deal with some consequences.” She didn’t do anything wrong.

    The consequences Nathan was talking about were tripping over air mattresses and being pushed by crowds, not the sexual harassment.

    Side note: what was the point of the jibe at April about not having to work while she studies? I could write some sort of snarky comment about how wow-just-wow privileged your sister is to be in college at all, all right for some, isn’t it… It’s not useful to complain about other people’s advantages when there’s no solution being offered, just an airing of resentful feeling.

  12. I’m really glad to see this post here. I haven’t been to Wisconsin, but have been to other solidarity rallies in Illinois (other brothers and sisters in my Local took the trip to Indianapolis last week). What doesn’t get near enough play in the media: removal of collective bargaining rights for public sector workers will primarily impact women.

  13. Jes:
    In short, I think that the people who really admire people like April OR Wisconsin’s governor have not been there. Have not had to experience the chaos and harrassment both sides caused – especially for the innocent.

    What the heck? No seriously, what the heck? When did April become conflated with the bunch of assholes harassing your sister? April never harassed your sister, she is here to defend collective bargaining rights (for mostly women workers), not to vouch for the personal impeccability or even decency of every union member. Judge people by their own actions, please. Guilt by association is toxic.

  14. Sara, as Medea pointed out, and as I said multiple times, I didn’t support the abusive behavior and harassment that occurred. But I seriously question a view that says workers in a state Capitol building where laws are being passed that many people find unjust should expect to just be able to go about their business without any disruption.

    Jes’ comments about noisemakers and mattresses in doorways suggest she feels her sister shouldn’t have to deal with any disruption – if this is her intent, I totally disagree.

    Also, I find this “innocents” talk a little strange. If you work in the state Capitol building, you’re part of the system that is directly creating legislation to run the state. You can be personally against everything being legislated, but because you work in that building, you’ll have to deal with the fact that people will come to hold rallies and protests, sometimes to levels where it will disrupt or hinder your work. This is part of the democratic process.

    If Jes’ comment had just been – my sister experienced sexual harassment and so did some of her co-workers, I think most people here would say – that’s terrible – because we don’t support that kind of behavior under any circumstances.

    But her comments about crowds and noise sound like those made by people who think that voting solves all our problems, and who sit at home watching biased newscasts covering protests and think “Oh, those loud, violent people – I wish they’d go home, get back to work, and stop causing trouble.”

    Perhaps it’s worth repeating what La Lubu said:

    “What doesn’t get near enough play in the media: removal of collective bargaining rights for public sector workers will primarily impact women.”

  15. Jes, I’m sorry your sister was assaulted. Moreover, if I were you, I’d feel like I just got the big “fuck you” from several members of a community that should care about how women passing through the crowd are getting treated. I’m sorry about that as well. If I were as pissed as I imagine you are, I’d probably lash out at everyone involved with the protests too. It sucks, and I hope your sister has someone at work she can talk to about the issue. Maybe they can reassign her duties for awhile?

    Does anyone know who’s organizing the protests? i.e. if I were to write a letter to someone discussing this issue and asking them to communicate the problem of harassment against women to the crowd (pamphlets? loudspeakers?), does anyone know who I might address it to?

  16. @Jes: You know, I was reading this article that April wrote, about all these people in Madison coming together in solidarity and protesting, and I had *exactly* the same reaction you did: “Why the hell isn’t April sitting in a cubicle at Wells Fargo for eight hours a day?” I mean, here she is, spending her twenties studying, writing, becoming involved in politics, and taking road trips to Wisconsin. And that’s the reason liquor drenched AFSCME Goons are running rampant. Thanks for articulating what everyone else was thinking when they read this.

  17. nathan:
    Also, I find this “innocents” talk a little strange. If you work in the state Capitol building, you’re part of the system that is directly creating legislation to run the state. You can be personally against everything being legislated, but because you work in that building, you’ll have to deal with the fact that people will come to hold rallies and protests, sometimes to levels where it will disrupt or hinder your work. This is part of the democratic process.

    But it’s also illustrative of the problem- people like Jes’s sister are forced to work these roles out of economic necessity. Just as police officers are forced to confront protesters even though they may agree with them. Independence and freedom is part of what is lost from economic injustice, that is what the libertarians do not get. People like the Koch brothers use the bodies of working class people and put them on the front lines of the ‘democratic process’ to enforce and perpetuate the oppressive system that people like the Koch brothers created. The victims of this process shouldn’t be blamed, they’re part of the same struggle ultimately.

  18. Jes: I’d like to offer a different perspective. Because of my little sister’s experiences (she’s a college student), I really DON’T admire people like April (nothing personal). My sister is not scholarship-laden/rich enough to be ‘intentionally unemployed’ – she works as a page at the Capitol Building in Wisconsin.

    I first want to lay to rest any potential misconceptions about my present freedom to have participated in the recent rally. I understand why you came to the conclusion that you did, so I’m not trying to be terribly defensive. But: I have the freedom to be an unemployed student at the moment only because financial hardships forced my husband and I to move back home. As a result of lower expenses because of moving back home, and some extra student loan money, I was able to put off finding a new job for a little longer that I originally expected. I’m in no way as economically privileged as you make me sound 🙂

    I’m sorry to hear about your sister’s experiences. I hate to say that I’m not surprised. I don’t yet have any experience working in local politics or doing anything similar to what your sister does, but from my husband’s experiences working for Tarryl Clark’s campaign (she ran against Michele Bachmann last year), I know that even on the Dem side, working for campaigns and on the grassroots level is often dissapointingly different than what you’d otherise expect. Where they aren’t up front about what they expect of you, they are shady about how and what you’re getting paid, etc. I hate that this is the case in an area where I put so much of my trust. I hope we can continue to work to eradicate these types of practices, and the harassment issues that still persist.

  19. Sara:
    Minor correction on the douchey Snyder policy here in Michigan: they removed the part about a *corporation* being able to take over a local government. Now the Emergency Financial Manager has to be an individual person. It’s still basically the same anti-democratic bullshit, of course.

    Thanks for this information! I’m happy to hear that at least that part’s been removed, anyway.

  20. I’m just gonna skip right past all that derailing and say that this message cannot be spread far enough… cannot reach enough people.

    The simple truth here is that all of us who recognize that we are not in control, we know we have “power in numbers”. Another comment above raised a very important point: “WI has nothing to do with the recall effort, and everything to do with the massive demonstrations attended by ordinary people looking to fight back against blatant class war from above.”

    I believe that is terribly, awfully true. In the sense that it is quite literally a tragedy that I or You do not have an action agenda set for tomorrow.

  21. Great to not only hear April’s perspective on this, but also that of those working on site and how conditions there are not always ideal. Dialog such as this is a welcome sight, as opposed to the moronic hurling of insults on mainstream sites. As was mentioned above, “fighting for the rights of marginalized people is messy work,” and while I am nowhere near being able to be there to help the cause, it was great to get to the root of things here, where I wouldn’t be if reading elsewhere… thanks!

  22. Glad to see your guest-post April 🙂

    What I don’t understand is why anyone is throwing in Indiana as part of “labor busting” and “anti-union”. The bill in Indiana is to make it to where people aren’t forced by their bosses to join unions.

    Why is that bad? I thought unions were good things that many people would voluntarily join without being forced into it. Why are we trying to force people to join unions?

  23. The Wisconsin protests and those elsewhere have restored my faith in this country some. Complacency, apathy, selfishness, etc. is what I expected. I’m overjoyed to have been proven so thoroughly wrong.

    I’m donating.

  24. Just a reminder: remember the telephone conversation Scott Walker had with “David Koch” (in reality, Ian Murphy, playing the role of Koch)? The one where Walker let his guard down? The use of agent provocatuers was discussed. In the phone conversation, that idea was rejected because (as Walker said), “the public’s protesting is not going to affect us”….but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any.

    It’s entirely possible that some entitled, sexist asshole was playing grab-ass with Jes’ sister, especially if this happened in an area free of witnesses. But keep in mind that there are hundreds of labor union women milling about. Women who generally are very empowered to protest sexual harassment, and thus have a strikingly low toleration of it in comparison to the general population.

    Jes, I realize your sister may not want to place a formal complaint for fear of the impact on her job (pages not being unionized), but please tell your sister that if this happens again she should immediately yell, “get your hand off my ass!” (Or, whatever the case is….loudly declare the offender’s behavior and her opposition to it)—other protestors present *will* police this behavior. We (union members) are highly aware of the ongoing media attacks on us, and fools within the ranks aren’t suffered lightly (despite popular opinion).

    I’ve been going to picket lines and protests my entire life. People at these events congregate in familiar groups. The people standing around one another are usually members of the same Local or District Council. Tell your sister to look for the nearby signs, some of which are almost certain to identify a group (I have a YouTube video posted on my blog taken by Brother Jim Hade of the Laborers’ for “Labor Beat”, a union news service, if you want an example of what I’m talking about). She can then contact that group and say, “hey…I don’t know if this is one of your members, but xyz happened to me…” and give a description of the perp. If it’s one of “theirs”, they’ll know it, and they’ll be *livid*. But even if it’s a plant, yelling about it will get an immediate reaction from the union women present (and most of the union men).

  25. April,
    I’d like to apologize. I didn’t mean to make your motives or employment or not employment the issue, and I feel that I spoke of you unfairly and I’m sorry.

    Nathan and others,
    YES I am more protective since this is my much-younger sister. I know how horribly common sexual harrassment and sexual assault are, but I think that everyone can agree that the instinct to protect oneself/one’s family and say “it shouldn’t have happened to anyone…but I really wish it hadn’t happened to someone I love/me.”

    Do I wish the protests hadn’t happened? Not really…but, see, on those particular days, those particular individuals who were actively groping at employees wouldn’t have been there. The complaint about crock pots and mattresses on the floor…I think I understand that that was just a problem with space being taken up in the narrow hallways, because my sister mentioned that it made her need to be “squashed” up close to people when she didn’t feel comfortable being that close to people (I was not there, but I am picturing 1am at a bar crowded-close?) and that the closeness to others made it easier for them to grope at her. Does that make sense? She’s been crying so much and my account is, of course, secondhand.

  26. I just want to comment that I feel included in the group of people who watched WI from afar, and felt personal pressure to audit the state of my own “freedoms” (or lack there of), for real.

    Keep on bravely sharing your thoughts and doing what you think is best people! Hopefully, we can all find the strength within ourselves to stand up AND respect (& love) others in the process. I believe we will all find ourselves on the side of action, in order to get what we need, soon enough. Regardless of who we are.

    Cheers everyone!

  27. I understand Jes’s protectiveness toward her sister, since it’s horrible that she’s had to go through that. I live in Madison, and I’ve been up to the Capitol a number of times, though not as often as I’d like (I’m self-employed, so I’m not affected as directly by the legislation as others, but really, this budget will hurt us all in so many ways if it goes through). It’s very true that while the protests were at their height inside the building that it was loud, especially for people who had to be there for hours (most of the cops wore earplugs). I know a staffer for one of the senate Dems, and she enjoyed the energy of the protesters and found it helpful as she tried to go about the business of serving her boss’s constituents in the face of having her photocopying privileges taken away by the Republicans and all the other petty crap. She probably wasn’t running around the building as much as Jes’s sister, though.

    I don’t want to make excuses, but bad people will take advantage of crowded situations. One thing I try to bear in mind throughout this whole thing is that while it’s fantastic that a lot of people who usually vote Republican have had their eyes opened by the whole thing, this may be the only thing on which they see eye to eye with liberals, at least at this point. It’s why I’m actually thankful that the national Dems. haven’t really gotten involved, since that would probably drive many of them away.

  28. Jes: I’d like to apologize. I didn’t mean to make your motives or employment or not employment the issue, and I feel that I spoke of you unfairly and I’m sorry.

    I appreciate it, Jes, thank you!

  29. Serious question, from a usually *extremely* politically liberal individual who feels like she’s missing something when it comes to public sector unions: why *shouldn’t* these workers face layoffs and pay cuts?

    I mean, I’m not in favor of abolishing unions or blocking collective bargaining (and I don’t support the portion of the bill that did the latter), but in a time when the economy has taken a big hit and companies are having to implement all kinds of cost saving measures, including layoffs and salary/benefit cuts, why should public sector workers be immune? Every time I hear a teacher argue that they need tenure because an angry parent might get them fired, I think about all of the private sector workers who might have bosses fire them for reasons they don’t agree with — job security is not something that anyone is entitled to, particularly if your unions have blocked almost every kind of accountability measure that your employer has tried to apply to you.

    Budgets have to balance, and a big proportion of states’ budgets consist of their workforce and their pensions for that workforce. I don’t know about Wisconsin specifically, but I’ve watched places like Toronto give in to public sector unions over and over because it’s politically expedient — and all the while, future obligations to those workers’ retirement funds are growing and growing, and the age at which they can retire is getting earlier and earlier due to leave roll-over policies.

    I support the idea that businesses and government alike should make necessary cuts as humane as possible: that executives with big salaries should take the biggest cuts, that cost-saving measures that don’t put people out of work should be favored (some of the most effective alternatives to layoffs, by the way, include things like reduced salaries and pension contributions and later retirement ages), and that a budget shortfall one year doesn’t mean you should make massive cuts without assessing the longer-term economic picture. But really, if the choice is ever-increasing budget deficits, deep cuts to necessary services, or a 2% increase in what public sector employees have to contribute to their pensions… well, I guess I don’t get the outrage.

    And yes, I know that the Wisconsin protests are also about bigger issues, like the ban on collective bargaining and the end to mandatory union contributions. But I’ve seen plenty of interviews with protestors in Wisconsin who were up in arms about the layoffs/benefit reductions portion, and I’ve certainly seen that discussed as a social justice issue in other public-sector union contexts. It’s a cause I just don’t “get” in some fundamental way.

  30. Jes – I can understand your protectiveness towards your sister. I have felt similarly with my own sister.

    I’m sure it was challenging to work under those conditions for those who weren’t being harassed, so I can only imagine what your sister went through.

    Tony – when did I blame Jes’ sister? Where are you getting that from?

    I was commenting on the fact that protests occur in legislative buildings all the time. Sometimes really loud and challenging ones, on all sides of issues. These particular ones in Wis. have been much more robust than what we have seen in U.S states in recent years, but I, for one, am ecstatic to see so many people engaged on such a vital issue. And I still say, people who work in state legislative buildings should expect that there will be times when large, noisy crowds will disrupt there work.

    I think there is a way that abusive behavior like what Jes’ sister experienced can be condemned and somehow addressed, while at the same time completely supporting the efforts being made by all those people to speak out and be engaged in their state.

    Also, Tony, from what I have heard, most of the police officers handled things pretty well down there. Not being aggressive, and not going along with what the Governor and others were telling them to do. I get what you’re saying about pitting working class folks against working class folks, but in this case, I think the police and law enforcement down there saw the shit that was on the table, and did their best to maintain some sense of order without giving into the hardball tactics the right wing leadership desired.

  31. Esti, the “crisis” in Wisconsin is a manufactured one. The previous Governor left behind a budget surplus, which Walker and his Republican cronies promptly gave away to big business. There is no reason for any austerity or punitive measures to be inflicted upon the public workers of Wisconsin, as there was plenty of money in the budget prior to this giveaway of public funds—a giveaway that will not benefit the people of Wisconsin, but rather a small coterie of wealthy, well-connected folks.

  32. This is the comment I have a problem with:
    I’M not going to openly express admiration for people who instigate these crowd situations that harrass my sister.

    The presence of a large number of protestors, most of whom are labor union women, and thoroughly against sexual harrassment, is by no means “instigating” or enabling sexual harrassment. Do you think music festivals and parades should be banned? Because I guarantee you, there is always some sexual harrassment that goes on at such events. I doubt you would have cast aspersions on festival- or parade-goers in general for an isolated incident.

  33. Esti

    Perhaps you haven’t noticed that Governor Walker cut corporate taxes and offered tax breaks to corporations just a few weeks before claiming the state was broke? The guy is deliberately shifting the burden from the rich to the rest of the folks in the state. He wants to cut the crap out of state services AND destroy the unions.

    “in a time when the economy has taken a big hit and companies are having to implement all kinds of cost saving measures, including layoffs and salary/benefit cuts, why should public sector workers be immune?” Public sector employees are already getting hit. My step mother works for the state of Minnesota. Her insurance costs have gone up almost every year. Other benefits have been cut, and wages have barely kept up with inflation. And as far as corporations go – the smaller ones, along with small businesses, are definitely struggling and having to cut. But with the large corporations, it’s always layoff and salary benefit cuts for the average worker. Meanwhile, the top executives and shareholders have felt almost no impact. And in the case of some of these banking executives, they’re bringing in more money now than before the economy tanked.

    Also, I don’t know about retirement in Canada – but here in the U.S. retirement is getting later and later – if ever.

  34. Esti,

    It’s also good to remember that unions protect more than just wages and benefits. Union workers have far more wage parity with regards to race and sex than nonunion workers. Unions are often the *only* vehicle to enforce workplace safety, anti-sexual harassment laws, FMLA, and ensure equal treatment of workers (including fair disciplinary practices).

    I’m a union member—IBEW. I’ve had contractors not want to hire me when they found out they were getting a woman. Without a union, I’d have been unemployed.

  35. Esti – after Walker proposed taking their right to collective bargaining away, the unions agreed to accept all his proposed changes to pensions and everything else, in exchange for being able to keep their collective bargaining rights. Walker refused. This isn’t about pensions and pay cuts. It’s about union busting. That’s what Walker’s bill was about, and it’s what the outrage is about.

  36. But I’ve seen plenty of interviews with protestors in Wisconsin who were up in arms about the layoffs/benefit reductions portion, and I’ve certainly seen that discussed as a social justice issue in other public-sector union contexts. It’s a cause I just don’t “get” in some fundamental way.

    Welcome to the Rust Belt. The public sector is *the* top employer in many places in the midwest/rust belt, and one of few that offers benefits like health care and pensions. For the people who would get laid off, there *isn’t* any replacement jobs; even low-wage, no-benefit employment.

    In other words, why are the workers seen as the greedy people, when all we want is to work to earn a decent living, while bonuses and tax dollar giveaways are handed out to people who already have far more than they could ever use? The great lie is that the money “trickles down”…but it doesn’t. It never does. It never has. The workers aren’t the greedy people in this equation, and Walker is not doing the bidding of the people—he’s a puppet to the Koch brothers. And he’s not alone. Tax dollar giveaways to the rich are an employment strategy for politicians—they get a golden parachute in future employment after they leave office.

  37. Pooping in to “Like” everything Lubu has said on the thread so far. Thank you for always shedding light on the value of unionized organization.

  38. La Lubu: The workers aren’t the greedy people in this equation, and Walker is not doing the bidding of the people—he’s a puppet to the Koch brothers.

    Here’s hoping that this whole mess makes this very clear to the people who voted him and his gang in the legislature in. They were sold a bill of goods, people like them all across the country have been buying this bill of goods for decades now, and maybe the scales will start to fall from their eyes, at least in the Midwest.

  39. Tony – when did I blame Jes’ sister? Where are you getting that from? I was commenting on the fact that protests occur in legislative buildings all the time.

    Which you did. Then you said, “Also I find this talk about innocents a little strange”… and went on to talk about how state workers are “part of the system.” *Usually* when this kind of argument is brought up, it is implied that the people who work inside the system are somehow guilty or complicit in the outcomes of the system. In this particular case, I felt that that implication would be unfair, and I didn’t want to let it go unchallenged, even though I was not 100% sure what you meant to imply. So I apologize if I misconstrued you.

    most of the police officers handled things pretty well down there.

    Which is why I felt it would be an apt comparison, as a group of people who are nominally “inside” the system but probably are so due to economic necessity as well, and stand on the front lines of a battle that isn’t necessarily theirs…

  40. Esti-

    Layoffs and benefits reductions are a social justice issue in general, not particular to public sector unions. The public sector unions just happen to be more organized and thus, more able to get their voice out there. But whether all people are able to get jobs, and whether all accessible jobs offer good benefits, is of concern for all workers. As far as overall economic production we are not any poorer than we have ever been. GDP “Gross Domestic Production” has returned to the 2007 peak. Productivity is higher than ever. So if governments are facing huge deficits and workers cannot find jobs or benefits, while corporations are making record profits and there are record amounts of institutional wealth out there in the private sector– well that’s a question of distribution, and that’s where the social justice comes in.

  41. Lasciel:

    What I don’t understand is why anyone is throwing in Indiana as part of “labor busting” and “anti-union”. The bill in Indiana is to make it to where people aren’t forced by their bosses to join unions.

    Why is that bad? I thought unions were good things that many people would voluntarily join without being forced into it. Why are we trying to force people to join unions?

    Preventing the union from forcing workers to join it is another way of breaking the union, all while sounding reasonable to people who don’t understand unionization.

    Unions bargain for the whole work place, not just those who are members, so individuals who don’t join the union will get all the benefits the union provides without having to pay dues. The union looses members and money, and then those workers who are paying dues resent those who aren’t, and decide they shouldn’t pay dues either. The union usually has to fold under these conditions.

    Right to work states, which Indiana is striving to become with this law, have much lower unionization rates and weaker unions in general than non right to work states.

    What Indiana is doing is union busting, plain and simple.

  42. Tony: As far as overall economic production we are not any poorer than we have ever been.

    Depends on who you mean by “we”. Stockholders may not see much decrease in thier portfiolios. Well, bully for them. You are so right that it’s a question distribution.

  43. Jim: Depends on who you mean by “we”. Stockholders may not see much decrease in thier portfiolios. Well, bully for them.

    Not to be a douche, but if you had a well-diversified stock portfolio over the past ten years, you had a negative real return (i.e. because of inflation, your stock-invested money is worth less today than it was in 2001). This is equivalent to putting your money in your mattress and is less than what you would have made if you kept your money in Treasury bonds or even if you just put it in a savings account at the bank. PS, if you have a 401K, you’re probably a stockholder. I’m not ridiculously familiar with the public sector’s union’s achievements, but I’m hoping they’ve negotiated some kind of retirement plan – which means, again, they’re probably stockholders, if indirectly.

    There’s a game theory approach to why companies aren’t expanding (and thus creating jobs), but this isn’t really the place for that. That said, for most major companies, the extra cash they’re creating isn’t going into an exec’s pocket – it’s just sitting at the company. This is douchey and hurts working class people, but it’s not out of the standard corporate greed we expect from C-level folk. Maybe I’ll write something on the topic elsewhere.

  44. PrettyAmiable: There’s a game theory approach to why companies aren’t expanding (and thus creating jobs), but this isn’t really the place for that… Maybe I’ll write something on the topic elsewhere.

    You should let me know if you do, I’m interested.

  45. I would be interested as well. If you have any thoughts, I’d also be interested on your (and anybody here’s) thoughts about where pension & future benefit funds should be invested in light of the problem with assuming 7-8% annual returns on contributions (when as you pointed out, actual returns often fall far below that). That seems to be about the only interesting criticism of how these state funds are currently managed.

  46. PrettyAmiable: but if you had a well-diversified stock portfolio over the past ten years, you had a negative real return (i.e. because of inflation, your stock-invested money is worth less today than it was in 2001).

    Where are you getting this data? Well-diversified (uncorrelated) portfolios had returns around 60ish% over the last decade with only 25% inflation. I think JPMorgan had a 1st quarter report on it.

  47. @Kristen J., I was strictly speaking about a well-diversified portfolio of US stocks in reference to Jim’s comment about stockholders. When you factor in other instruments (bonds, asset-backed securities, stocks and other assets outside of the US – like China, which has fared pretty well through the Western economic crisis), you’re going to get different figures. My best guess is that the JP Morgan numbers were for a completely diversified portfolio which ought to look better than just a portfolio of US stocks. Do you still have access to this report? I’d love to see it.

    Since I was focusing on US stocks, I used the S&P as a proxy. (Ignore this if you know how to access this, but I don’t want to assume one way or another). On finance.yahoo.com, you can get a graph and historical prices for the S&P by searching ^GSPC in the “Get Quotes” field. Under the graph, you can select the “max” time frame and take a look at where we were in 2001 as compared to today. These figures suggest there’s no positive return over this time period – but again, this is strictly large-cap US stocks. If you also looked at the Russell 2000 (^RUT) over the same time period (which has smaller and mid-cap stocks), you’d get a great return. That said, if your portfolio is value-weighted, you’d have a relatively small portion of your total stock portfolio there anyway.

    tl;dr – I’d love to see the report. I’m guessing it’s in reference to a completely diversified portfolio and not just a diversified stock portfolio.

    What I don’t know – I come from a blue-collar background and in the one year off that I had, I couldn’t spare cash for a retirement fund through work. I especially have no idea what labor unions have as options. For those accounts, can you invest abroad? Are you limited to domestic stocks/mutual funds/bonds?

  48. PrettyAmiable,

    It was a fully diversified portfolio. Typically* in a retirement account where you select the investments (as opposed to a pension where the pension manager selects assets) you have access to one or more platforms of funds. Say for example Fidelity. Fidelity offers a wide variety of funds including domestic and international stocks and bonds. I think they also have countercyclical portfolios, but that is a more recent industry trend. You can develop an internationally diversified portfolio.

    The portfolio of funds I put together for my MIL in 2000 managed a return of 6% a year since. It doesn’t do too much better than that in the procycle, but its very stable. So its possible to create a portfolio with positive returns, but I don’t think your average person has the knowledge of how to do so. And I think our current disclosure system impedes the process and allows money managers to take advantage of less knowledgable investors. I.e., chasing fads and returns. /rant

    I’ll look for JP Morgans report. Hopefully they have it up somewhere online.

  49. To piggyback off what Kristin J said, labor unions that offer 401k plans for members have the aforementioned platforms of funds; how much selection a person has varies by their union and/or what contract he or she is working under. In my Local, the folks working for contractors (the Residential, Inside, or VDV agreements) have a much better (and larger) selection of funds than the people working for the State (under the CMS or SOS contracts). What’s more—you can’t transfer your funds from one to the other plan if you go to work under a different agreement. And while pension benefits are reciprocal between Locals (for folks who work on the road), 401k or other deferred-comp plans aren’t.

    I do have a 401k plan; I’m damn glad I won’t have to rely on it as my sole form of retirement (yay, defined benefit pension!).

  50. Esti: but in a time when the economy has taken a big hit and companies are having to implement all kinds of cost saving measures, including layoffs and salary/benefit cuts, why should public sector workers be immune?

    Other people have already answered this, but Esti, I have to ask you: Why should private-sector people bear the brunt of cost-saving measures? Why shouldn’t *every worker* have the right to expect what unionized public-sector workers have?

    And the followup: What makes it ok for Bank of America and Citigroup to each have $21 billion in profits in 2010 when they, along with all of Big Finance, are responsible for speculation that resulted in the economic meltdown in 2008? What makes it ok for ExxonMobil to have $39 billion in profits in 2010, Shell to have $25 billion in profits, and BP to have $22 billion in profits, when gasoline and fuel oil prices are acting as a regressive tax against the poor and are contributing to the wrecked economy? What makes it ok for Larry Ellison (Oracle, Inc) to get paid $84 million, Ray Irani (Occidental Petroleum) to get paid $31 million, Mark Hurd (Hewlett Packard) to get paid $24 million, AG Lafley (Proctor and Gamble) to get paid $23 million, in JUST ONE YEAR, while those companies continue to lay off workers, slash benefits and pay of workers they don’t lay off, and exploit desperately poor people for labor throughout the global south? These are companies and individuals who are profiting directly from the destruction of the union movement, high unemployment and underemployment, exploitation of women and people of color.

    And you’re upset that (some) public-sector workers are getting paid enough to actually be able to afford housing and raise families?

    The answer isn’t to destroy public-employee unions in response to manufactured “fiscal crises”. The answer is to stop exploiting workers in the private and public sectors.

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