In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Is it “chivalry” if women do it as often as men?

Jill

A pregnant woman in Brooklyn kept track of how often people gave her their seat on the subway. The results? People give up their seats a lot! Except on the G train, where people are bastards (probably because they’re mad they have the ride the worst train in the city — understandable). And men and women give up their seats at roughly the same rates.

So it’s kind of weird that the article is titled “Pregnant Commuter Tracks Subway Chivalry.” And also that the formerly pregnant woman announces that “chivalry is not dead.” I’m pretty sure this is just evidence that being a polite and decent human being isn’t dead, and that New Yorkers aren’t actually huge assholes. It’s polite and decent for people to get up for pregnant women, old people and people with physical disabilities. It would be “chivalrous” for men, as a class, to get up for women and let us all sit down just because we’re women. That would also be stupid. Don’t do that (unless I’m carrying like 3 heavy bags, and then you should totally do that). What would not be stupid, however, would be for men on public transportation to learn how to sit with their knees together, and to not take up two seats because they have to let their balls air out.

But no, getting up for a pregnant woman on the subway is not chivalry, especially when the stats show that women do it about as often as men. It is just something you should do because it’s decent and right (it is also making yourself feel morally superior). Except when you ruin someone’s day by offering them a seat and then figuring out they aren’t actually pregnant (as I have done at least once).

82 thoughts on Is it “chivalry” if women do it as often as men?

  1. I’m also sure that this is evidence that a lot of people misuse the term ‘Chivalry’. It’s just called ‘being nice’. But I’m just reiterating what you’ve already said here.

  2. I hate saying this, but my own experience with being pregnant and taking public transportation is that people, particularly young women, weren’t very quick about giving up their seats, even when I was hugely, obviously pregnant and had my two-year-old with me. I find that older adults were more likely to get up for us, so maybe it’s a generational thing, or people are just jerkier on the bus and in my particular city…

  3. You know, I saw this study the other day and I was shocked. Shocked! As a New Yorker who was recently pregnant – and, during the summer when it was quite obvious that I was so – I found that people very rarely gave up their seats for me. Especially on crowded trains. Sometimes people would point out seats they were about to vacate to get off the train, but as my husband pointed out, “There’s no honor in that.”

    The people who most often got up for me, even when we weren’t near their stop? Women of any race and age, and men of color at any age. White dudes were the most likely to bury themselves in their iPhones and ignore me. The younger they were, the less likely they were to get up.

    1. BKMama, I’ve seen the same thing. I’ve never thought twice about giving up my seat for someone who was obviously pregnant, elderly or disabled (I have done the mental “is-this-person-old-enough?” calculation, because I don’t want to insult people), but I’ve repeatedly seen people who need a seat get on the train at the other end of the car, and everyone around pretend to be buried in their ipods. It’s really sad.

  4. Yeah, chivalry has nothing to do with it. To me, “chivalry” means doing something for me that I am fully capable of doing on my own. This is just being kind.

    I look like I am about to give birth to a fully-grown field hockey team and it is, overwhelmingly, women who offer to help. Not even close to 50/50 and I live in the South. Most of the time, women don’t even ask – they just jump in and help and act like it’s no big deal. THIS is what I really appreciate the most, since I’m generally fiercely DIY and hate asking for help. Women rule.

  5. Really, I wish that people could get the definition of “chivalry” as opposed to “politeness” straight. *sigh* Chivalry has (as I recall) a whole lot in it about loyalty to your liege and honor in battle and really useful stuff like that, and a teeny little bit about how you are supposed to treat women *of your station and above*.

    Being polite is just being nice, and in this case, offering to help if it seems like help might be welcomed. (I will cut folks some slack if the pregnant woman in question is not obviously so — there’s been a bit of “don’t assume that’s a baby” in recent years, and that’s not a bad thing IMO.) No swords/chargers/squired required.

  6. New York has a bad reputation for incivility and every New yorker I’ve ever met, and that isn’t many, completely belies the reputation. Maybe New Yorkers just build it up to keep u riff raff out.

    What I see, and maybe this is a West Coast thing, is younger people of both genders getting up for older people of both genders. Maybe pregnant women, however young, get some kind of a break, but I don’t particularly see that.

  7. When I severely sprained my ankle a year and a half ago after being hit by a shuttle bus, people were genuinely concerned and did offer me a seat on a regular basis. It really did make me feel better that people cared enough to do so.

    I noticed it as much with men as with men. But I am a man, and I’m sure that probably factors in, too. Or, maybe not?

  9. I know I personally tend to do the ‘intensely interested in book/iPhone/other toy’ thing when I see someone who may need a seat get on the bus, but that’s because I have an invisible disability and I really don’t want to have to deal w/ the side-eying and glares.

    Yes, I am young-ish. Yes I am also overweight. Yes, I do in fact have an invisible disability, and depending on the day, standing could result in a fall, vomiting or other unpleasantness.

    I wonder how many of the people Jill mentions (for example), are doing the same?

    1. I wonder how many of the people Jill mentions (for example), are doing the same?

      Probably a few (which is why I don’t actually say anything to the people looking down or avoiding eye contact). But I really, really, REALLY doubt that in a crowded subway car with dozens of people sitting down, everyone has an invisible disability.

  10. How about giving up your seat to injured people too? A couple years ago I was at the boats waiting for my boat mechanic sweetheart to get done with work. I was helping them carry something across one of the boats and I fell through the floor where it had been opened, hitting my knee really bad on the edge of the hole on the way down (glad it wasn’t my head). Trying to get home on the subway that evening, no one would give up their seat and my partner was trying to keep me from falling over and finally a guy did give up his seat – BKMama, he was a man of color – and then actually got people out of the way and helped me over to it and I was so grateful.

  11. Jill: Probably a few (which is why I don’t actually say anything to the people looking down or avoiding eye contact). But I really, really, REALLY doubt that in a crowded subway car with dozens of people sitting down, everyone has an invisible disability.

    Fair enough. I’ve never been to New York, and I only have the vaguest notion of what a ‘subway car’ looks like. Given the size of our buses, and the general rider demographics I see, I have no problem believing that at least half the people sitting down need to be sitting down – for one reason or another.

    1. Yeah, I’m sure there are people who need to be sitting down. I don’t know how many actual seats there are in an average subway car — on the more modern trains, I would guess about 60. At least on the train I take, it’s largely business commuters — a lot of 25-65 men and women who are going to work, and who walk quickly and race up the subway stairs. I would be shocked if even 1/4 of the rush hour commuters on my train actually needed to sit.

      That said, of course I recognize that invisible disabilities (and injuries) do exist, and so it’s counter-productive to publicly shame people because they’re sitting down. But there are a ton of people who are perfectly able to stand and who just choose not to, because they’re rude and/or selfish.

  12. It’s not chivalry, it’s politeness.

    I did have an elderly woman accost me here in Moscow about not giving up my seat to another elderly woman on the bus recently. When I pointed out the pregnancy and the back pain as well as any number of young dudes nearby who could potentially give up their seats, she told me that I “don’t look very pregnant.” The thing is, she honestly just didn’t want to bother the young dudes buried in their iPods – I seemed easier to pick on. I yelled right back at her. Felt good.

  13. Another thing is – I’ve had chronic back pain and I’ve had to do the whole, “I’m sorry, I can’t give up my seat, I’m in pain” thing before I even got pregnant. I look young and healthy, but whatever. Most people tend to understand.

  15. Except when you ruin someone’s day by offering them a seat and then figuring out they aren’t actually pregnant (as I have done at least once).

    Newsflash: Not every fat woman would have her day ruined if someone mistakenly thought she was pregnant. I know that’s difficult for some thin women to understand. Gasp!

    1. Newsflash: Not every fat woman would have her day ruined if someone mistakenly thought she was pregnant. I know that’s difficult for some thin women to understand. Gasp!

      Right, I didn’t say that every fat woman would have her day ruined…? The point was that it doesn’t make you feel morally superior when you do something that makes someone upset.

  16. Jill: Yeah, I’m sure there are people who need to be sitting down. I don’t know how many actual seats there are in an average subway car — on the more modern trains, I would guess about 60. At least on the train I take, it’s largely business commuters — a lot of 25-65 men and women who are going to work, and who walk quickly and race up the subway stairs.

    Heh, yeah, that’s a huge difference. I think there’s maybe 35-40 seats on the larger size buses and less than half that on the smaller buses.

    When I’m going to work, the largest percentage of riders seem to be older women going grocery shopping (why?!? can’t you wait an hour or two instead of taking up seats at rush hour? *ahem*), then students, then business commuters.

    I do agree with you about people being horrifically rude though. It frequently takes the form of “well my bag/purse/backpack totally deserves it’s own spot” in my neck of the woods. Or someone sitting in the outside/aisle seat while the inner one is empty.

  17. Empier waists are the stereotypical pregnancy shirts/dresses. So it makes sense that people thought that. I have a flat stomach and because of my wide hips and deep spine curvature they make me look pregnant.

    Jill: Right, I didn’t say that every fat woman would have her day ruined…? The point was that it doesn’t make you feel morally superior when you do something that makes someone upset.

  18. Empier waists are the stereotypical pregnancy shirts/dresses. So it makes sense that people thought that. I have a flat stomach and because of my wide hips and deep spine curvature they make me look pregnant.

    Jill: Right, I didn’t say that every fat woman would have her day ruined…? The point was that it doesn’t make you feel morally superior when you do something that makes someone upset.

  19. Is there a significant difference between fat people and pregnant women? I know pregnant women get sore feet and ankles, but surely that’s be caused by putting on the weight – and would happen even if you weren’t pregnant. I just dunno about the idea that while people should give up their seat for those who are pregnant or injured, morbid obesity doesn’t count as something deserving of sympathy.

    1. James, it’s not just because of sore feet and ankles. It’s also because pregnancy can throw off your center of gravity and loosen your joints, increasing the likelihood of falling if the train jerks (and increasing the risk of injury to your spine and joints as a result of a jerky train, even if you don’t fall).

  20. Jill wrote: What would not be stupid, however, would be for men on public transportation to learn how to sit with their knees together, and to not take up two seats because they have to let their balls air out.

    Two things:

    1) TMI, I know, but honestly – those things really do need some space sometimes! I mean hell, they have to go somewhere.

    2) More seriously, though, I do find holding my legs together in a sitting position genuinely uncomfortable in the hips and groin. I don’t know if it’s a lack of flexibility in the tendons or what, but my knees naturally splay apart about 14 inches, and holding them closer together than that is uncomfortable. Most guys I’ve talked to about this (yes, I know that’s an odd subject) say the same thing, while most women I’ve asked have no such issues. *shrug* Not sure why.

    Of course, none of that excuses taking up more than your fair share of space on a crowded subway, but figured I’d throw it out there.

  21. Most women you’ve talked to have been shamed since birth into keeping their legs closed while sitting. Most men you’ve talked to have not had such shaming.

    1. What PrettyAmiable said. It hurts my hip flexors quite a bit to keep my knees pinched together. I do it anyway if I’m on a crowded train so that someone else can sit down.

  22. James,

    As someone who falls into the category of “morbidly obese”, I would only want someone to give up their seat for me if it looked like I was struggling to stand. As long as I have comfortable shoes, I am usually good to go. I definitely think pregnant women usually need those seats more than I do. I will say that I can get pretty bad foot pain, but that’s usually after wearing my cheap work shoes on a cement floor for four hours straight. When I take the bus I wear my comfy walking shoes. I of course can only speak for myself but no, being fat is not the same as being pregnant.

  23. Yeah, it actually physically hurts me to try to keep my knees together. My thighs are large so to keep my knees together is to strain against all that fat which takes effort and makes me legs tired. The most comfortable position for my legs is how I am sitting right now: ankles crosses, legs stretched in front of me. This keeps my legs from splaying to the side and taking up seat space but unfortunately it is a difficult position on bus row seats with almost no leg room.

  24. Newsflash: Not every fat woman would have her day ruined if someone mistakenly thought she was pregnant. I know that’s difficult for some thin women to understand. Gasp!

    How do you know the difference if you don’t know the person? I’m not trying to be bratty; I just want to point out that if someone doesn’t know whether or not a false assumption of pregnancy is going to be offensive to a particular person or not, they’ll probably err on the side of not offering the seat. It’s not exactly a case of, “Well, just try offering your seat in case she really is pregnant, and if not, no harm done.”

    This reminds me of an internet conversation I recently read on another board where people were complaining about compliments they got that were inadvertently offensive or hurtful, such as telling a fat person she had beautiful hair–the assumption being (in the eyes of said fat person) that that was the only thing worth complimenting about her. I don’t see that; it seems like a highly individualized area of sensitivity and something no one could guess at. And I’m speaking as someone who is not thin and HAS been mistakenly assumed to be pregnant, more than once.

  25. I don’t have a problem helping people in need, any kind of people, whether it’s a pregnant woman trying to navigate public transportation, or an elderly gentleman who’s dropped his eyeglasses.

    But these days I have to be careful who I try to help. Recently, I tried to hold the door open for a young mother who was trying to get through the exit while pushing a stroller (with a child), and carrying several bags. As soon as I got to the door, she told me repeatedly, adamantly, “I got it. I got it. I can do it. I can do it.” So I sat back down.

    Some people don’t want help, even if they know they need it. I suppose they crave complete independence, or else they think it’s a sign of weakness. I’m not sure. It won’t keep me from trying to help people, but it does make me aware that some folks perceive my actions–no matter how good my intentions–differently than others.

  26. Some people just find human contact whether it be eye contact, verbal communication, physical closeness as a scary thing. I have an autistic kid and trust me he sometimes makes people nervous because he’ll give them dirty looks if they look at him too long. Some people won’t do anything nice to avoid social contact and feeling obligated to speak.

  27. I commuted for about two years on a city bus. Three or four times I offered my seat to a visibly pregnant woman. Every last mother-to-be of them said no. I hope they really wanted to be on their feet and they weren’t just being excessively polite in return.

  28. R.Dave: 1) TMI, I know, but honestly – those things really do need some space sometimes! I mean hell, they have to go somewhere.

    2) More seriously, though, I do find holding my legs together in a sitting position genuinely uncomfortable in the hips and groin. I don’t know if it’s a lack of flexibility in the tendons or what, but my knees naturally splay apart about 14 inches, and holding them closer together than that is uncomfortable. Most guys I’ve talked to about this (yes, I know that’s an odd subject) say the same thing, while most women I’ve asked have no such issues. *shrug* Not sure why.

    I manage to keep my arms out of your personal space even though it often makes me uncomfortable to cross them in front of my breasts. So if a dude stretches his legs out in front of me then I’m going to elbow him in the sternum. That way we can both be comfortable and uncomfortable in similar ways.

  29. I typically stand when I take public transit unless I am pregnant or my feet hurt and when I say pregnant, I mean the ENTIRE pregnancy even long before I was showing and still wearing heels. But I am guilty of offering my seat to other women in general (if I noticed they were looking for a seat) and pretty much anybody else because I typically will just stand. But when I was pregnant it was typically a guy who gave up his seat.

  30. What would not be stupid, however, would be for men on public transportation to learn how to sit with their knees together, and to not take up two seats because they have to let their balls air out.

    THIS. It’s not just inconsiderate, it’s hazardous. A couple of months ago, after one of our big snowstorms in Phila, I was trying to get past some dude who had his legs spread across half the freakin’ width of the train. And of course, he’s on the aisle seat, and his foot is almost entirely across the aisle. And of course the floor is wet with melted snow and mud. I tripped over his foot and went down hard on my hip. Thank G-d I didn’t fracture my hip, but two months later, I still haven’t recovered from the muscle injuries.

    And you know? When I struggled and finally got up? He still had his foot all the way across the aisle.

    R.Dave: More seriously, though, I do find holding my legs together in a sitting position genuinely uncomfortable in the hips and groin. I don’t know if it’s a lack of flexibility in the tendons or what, but my knees naturally splay apart about 14 inches, and holding them closer together than that is uncomfortable. Most guys I’ve talked to about this (yes, I know that’s an odd subject) say the same thing, while most women I’ve asked have no such issues. *shrug* Not sure why.

    (1) fourteen inches ain’t four feet. It’s like these dudes want to put blinking lights on their balls. (2) I’m a woman, and believe me, it’s uncomfortable for me to hold my legs closed. But then again, (a) I’m small enough to fit in one seat and considerate enough to only take one seat; (b) women who sit with their legs even one foot open get slut shamed; men who sit with their legs four feet open get excused. It ain’t right, and my still-sore hip agrees with me. So, cupcake? Shut your legs.

  31. Pingback: Is it “chivalry” if women do it as often as men? — Feministe « hahayourefunny

  32. I do feel awkward offering people seats because at some level you are assuming a vulnerability or weakness in the other person which may not be there, as Marksman2010 experienced. Even if they do want the seat, they may refuse out of politeness, as BitterScribe pointed out. And even if they do want the seat and take the seat, how do you know you really offered it out of kindness, or only did it to look good, as in the article Jill linked to? And there are a lot of people who may not look pregnant or injured but have an invisible disability as shimmorill described. At the end of the day, how much a person wants a seat is a psychological question, which can only be gleaned from behavior.

    For these reasons, unless it’s exceedingly obvious, I prefer to simply leave seats open rather than offer them to individuals. When a new one opens, I might choose to wait a few seconds before taking it. Half the time someone will immediately start pushing through the crowds from about halfway across the car, and I’ll know this person wants it more than me. If I’m sitting on a crowded train with a lot of people who look more tired/burdened down/elderly, I might choose to simply get up and walk away. If someone wants it, they’ll take it. If not, I’ll sit back down later. No need for human interaction, no showing off your kindness in front of others, no guessing games and presumption.

    However, one type of case where it’s always really obvious is families. Families always want to sit together (duh) and will always accept if you make room for this.

  33. Sarah: Except when you ruin someone’s day by offering them a seat and then figuring out they aren’t actually pregnant (as I have done at least once).Newsflash: Not every fat woman would have her day ruined if someone mistakenly thought she was pregnant. I know that’s difficult for some thin women to understand. Gasp!

    Yes, but other women can and do feel badly when this happens. Let’s not ignore the pressure women are under to be thin, and the shaming they get when they don’t measure up.

    When I worked in the city and took public transport, I basically offered my seat to anyone who I thought might need one. If they didn’t, no harm no foul. I didn’t announce why (Hey! You’re pregnant! Come, sit!!)–I just say, “Hey, would you like my seat?” or “I’m getting a cramp in my leg and need to stand to stretch it out–mind switching places with me?” (More often than not, I was telling the truth with the latter. Something about keeping my self pulled in my seat on crowded subway cars made my calf cramp like the devil on acid.)

  34. re: not chivalry but politeness. Politeness is part of chivalry. Since helping others is also part of chivalry but is not a necessary condition of politeness, I’m not sure it’s so wrong to say that giving up one’s seat on the train is chivalrous.

    I didn’t realize that the concept of chivalry was limited so that only men could do it. It means the ideal behavior of a knight. Knighthood is one of those (great many) things where the typical image is of a man, but knighthood — membership in orders of chivalry — is not limited to men and has not been since somewhere ’round the tenth century.

  35. “1) TMI, I know, but honestly – those things really do need some space sometimes! I mean hell, they have to go somewhere.”

    And that space is, in the case of every betesticled person I have ever talked to about it, in front of your legs and not between them. Seriously, close your legs now and see if you manage to do it without horribly crushing your testicles. Did it work? Then your position is le bullshit. There is no particular physiological reason, even accounting for most men having balls, why closing your legs should be more difficult for men than women.

    /rant

  36. I could write volumes about the annoyances of public transit. My daily commute is about two hours each way. As a fat, autistic man with a ‘strong’ touching phobia, space on public transit has been something I’ve had to consider very strongly for a few years now, ever since owning a car became too costly.

    Getting stuck next to one of those spreader guys for a half hour bus ride, when I can’t get up because the bus is packed – that can put me out for days. I just don’t know how it is I can keep my own 300 pounds into one – actually less than one – damn seat, thighs and gut and all (despite the discomfort) but guys the same height and half my weight have to take up a seat and a half, including the 1/5 of a seat I surrendered just by sitting down. And by FSM I sit with my knees together, so you thin dudes can darn well do just the same!

  37. Minor digression from a thread I otherwise mostly agree with:

    I manage to keep my arms out of your personal space even though it often makes me uncomfortable to cross them in front of my breasts. So if a dude stretches his legs out in front of me then I’m going to elbow him in the sternum. That way we can both be comfortable and uncomfortable in similar ways.

    And that space is, in the case of every betesticled person I have ever talked to about it, in front of your legs and not between them. Seriously, close your legs now and see if you manage to do it without horribly crushing your testicles. Did it work? Then your position is le bullshit. There is no particular physiological reason, even accounting for most men having balls, why closing your legs should be more difficult for men than women.

    You clearly have no idea how easily testicles get pinched or bumped around into a position where the “cord” structure holding the blood supply vessels is slightly constricted, or how paranoid the imminent threat of it makes a person, on account of how fucking much it HURTS. (Actually, I can tell from your screen name you almost certainly don’t). On a related note, I’m not finding much for “mammary torsion” except in a plastic surgery concept, but you might try Googling the analogous phenomenon (possible “trigger warning?”) Obviously, comparisons with childbirth aren’t available, but I’d be interested to see how men who’ve experienced both these and cluster headaches rate them relative to each other. Even if there’s only a small chance of that happening, you should be able to understand why someone would feel it’s important to avoid that, especially with the fear that every little twinge or pinch might be the experience starting again.

    If you want to argue that men should be able to comfortably keep their legs shoulder width apart, then that’s reasonable, but expecting them to be squished together and that it’s somehow jerky that men are reluctant to do so makes you sound like adolescent boys snickering about “PMS.” Examine your privilege.

  38. That pain does not even begin to compare to cluster headaches. Hell, that pain does not even measure up to some of the migraines I get too. Maybe if one of them actually, really burst.

    3.5/10

  39. Azkyroth: If you want to argue that men should be able to comfortably keep their legs shoulder width apart, then that’s reasonable, but expecting them to be squished together and that it’s somehow jerky that men are reluctant to do so makes you sound like adolescent boys snickering about “PMS.” Examine your privilege.

    Ummm…fuck off. I specifically said…keep out of my space, not squish yourself to as small as possible (although that seems to be what is expected of me btw). Also, fuck off because yeah, crushing my breasts also fucking hurts…only not sometimes if I move wrong…all the god damn time. So..yeah…fuck off.

  40. I don’t really think that the people here asking men to sit with their legs together are asking them to hold a dime between their knees. I think they are arguing that men ought to be able to keep their legs no more than shoulder width apart.

  41. Azkyroth:
    Minor digression from a thread I otherwise mostly agree with:

    You clearly have no idea how easily testicles get pinched or bumped around into a position where the “cord” structure holding the blood supply vessels is slightly constricted, or how paranoid the imminent threat of it makes a person, on account of how fucking much it HURTS.(Actually, I can tell from your screen name you almost certainly don’t).On a related note, I’m not finding much for “mammary torsion” except in a plastic surgery concept, but you might try Googling the analogous phenomenon (possible “trigger warning?”)Obviously, comparisons with childbirth aren’t available, but I’d be interested to see how men who’ve experienced both these and cluster headaches rate them relative to each other.Even if there’s only a small chance of that happening, you should be able to understand why someone would feel it’s important to avoid that, especially with the fear that every little twinge or pinch might be the experience starting again.

    If you want to argue that men should be able to comfortably keep their legs shoulder width apart, then that’s reasonable, but expecting them to be squished together and that it’s somehow jerky that men are reluctant to do so makes you sound like adolescent boys snickering about “PMS.”Examine your privilege.

    I followed your link and I learned that this is something that happens to 1 in 160 men. It is not 1 in 160 men who splay their knees in fear of that happening again (apparently this is considered a surgical emergency and people often lose a testicle…not something that happens every day I’d imagine). Besides, shoulder width apart is not too bad. People are talking about men taking up a seat and a half, etc. Men who usually look pretty relaxed by the way.

  42. Azkyroth:
    Minor digression from a thread I otherwise mostly agree with:

    You clearly have no idea how easily testicles get pinched or bumped around into a position where the “cord” structure holding the blood supply vessels is slightly constricted, or how paranoid the imminent threat of it makes a person, on account of how fucking much it HURTS.(Actually, I can tell from your screen name you almost certainly don’t).On a related note, I’m not finding much for “mammary torsion” except in a plastic surgery concept, but you might try Googling the analogous phenomenon (possible “trigger warning?”)Obviously, comparisons with childbirth aren’t available, but I’d be interested to see how men who’ve experienced both these and cluster headaches rate them relative to each other.Even if there’s only a small chance of that happening, you should be able to understand why someone would feel it’s important to avoid that, especially with the fear that every little twinge or pinch might be the experience starting again.

    If you want to argue that men should be able to comfortably keep their legs shoulder width apart, then that’s reasonable, but expecting them to be squished together and that it’s somehow jerky that men are reluctant to do so makes you sound like adolescent boys snickering about “PMS.”Examine your privilege.

    if sitting down and keeping ones legs together might cause extreme pain, there is a very easy solution…STANDING. (plus mansplaining then saying “examine your privilege” is the ultimate douche move and ought to revoke any sitting privilege you might already have accrued)

  43. I just tried an experiment.

    Sitting in my seat here, I tried seeing at what leg angle my balls started feeling uncomforable. As a rough estimate, anything less than 30 degrees (approx) was slightly uncomfortable. Less than 15 is moderately uncomfortable.

    I think it also would depend on how large or small, or hanging/contracted the person in question is. Also, tightness of clothing.

    Now, I don’t doubt that some men spread their legs too much on public transit, but I also don’t doubt that some ladies complain about it too much either.

  44. Carl S: if sitting down and keeping ones legs together might cause extreme pain, there is a very easy solution…STANDING.(plus mansplaining then saying “examine your privilege” is the ultimate douche move and ought to revoke any sitting privilege you might already have accrued)

    Thanks for the mansplaining Carl.

  47. Clearly my disinterest in shoving my knees into the people on either side of me in order to ensure that the testicular utopia that is my crotch never has to resort to urban consolidation has undermined the performance of my masculinity. Perhaps if I mail one leg to the Arctic and the other to the Antarctic I can regain some semblance of coherent dudehood…

  48. Well, yeah. It is just not dudely to go around failing to claim that your balls are huge and sensitive and prevent you from living a normal life. Also, they chime like Big Frickin’ Ben when you walk.

  49. I cannot believe someone just tried to legitimately compare the heinous violation of rights notion of sitting up straight with knees and shoulders roughly aligned, to a cluster headache, also known as a ‘suicide headache’. The poor mens. I had no idea they bore such a burden, that their normal anatomical arrangement was so excruciatingly fragile and painful that the mere act of sitting was comparable to the pain of childbirth, or kidney stones, or a neurological problem that makes people kill themselves. Talk about suffering in silence.

    Thanks for the laugh azkyroth. I needed it. Oh and lol forever at the fact that you think someone’s screen name belies whether or not they are betesticled. Nice dollop of cis privilege to season the steaming heap of male and T/CAB privilege you plopped down in here the second you thought anyone on Earth gave a fuck about your precious plums.

    Tears of mirth, I has them.

  50. Jill: Probably a few (which is why I don’t actually say anything to the people looking down or avoiding eye contact). But I really, really, REALLY doubt that in a crowded subway car with dozens of people sitting down, everyone has an invisible disability.

    Jill: rse I recognize that invisible disabilities (and injuries) do exist, and so it’s counter-productive to publicly shame people because they’re sitting down. But there are a ton of people who are perfectly able to stand and who just choose not to, because they’re rude and/or selfish.

    Respectfully, Jill (because I know you’re saying these things out of good intentions, and I appreciate that), it’s not just the currently-nondisabled people who choose to engage in public shaming. It’s the entire attitude: “There are seemingly able-bodied people here, therefore at least one person could give up a seat” that creates the pressures that lead people to start shaming others. And, for people with not-immediately-apparent conditions that make standing on public transit difficult, we don’t even need someone to publicly shame us. We just have to hear the chatter that “boy, I saw this pregnant woman/obviously disabled person/elderly person get on the bus the other day, and there were seemingly abled people there who didn’t stand up, how rude!” and know that automatically, it is being applied to us. All we have to do is be judged as not-obviously-disabled and we know we’re in the category of “people who are incredibly rude for not getting up.” No one has to say a word to us specifically – it’s just a simple logical deduction. And those are the kinds of little cuts, by thousands of which we die.

    It is easier to accept for people to say: “Those who need seats should be given access to them” without moving into the assessment of people around: “There are seemingly able-bodied people here, they can’t all be disabled”. When you move from the latter to the former, that’s where we become uncomfortable and feel judged.

    It’s also related to our discomfort having to ask for a seat when we need one. Having to ask is humiliating and outing, and a lot of people haven’t come to terms with their disability, or don’t feel like opening themselves up to all the questions (you’d be surprised the extended and intensely personal series of questions people will launch into in public settings) that day or ever, or their disability is related to difficulty approaching people/exposing themselves in that way. We have two choices: out ourselves and ask, or keep our dignity but worsen our physical conditions. And it’s understandable for others not to immediately get up just because I’m a young woman, and I don’t like when they do (it’s even more humiliating to accept that seat because I need it, even as I’m insulted at being offered at all). Rock, hard place etc. It’s not directly flowing out of this conversation, but it is an essential element feeding a lot of disabled folks’ discomfort with the subject, and making us even more sensitive on the matter.

  51. “from the former to the latter,” that should read. Also, I realize that this attitude (someone could have gotten up!) comes from a place of wanting to help elderly folks, PWD, pregnant people (and ubershoppers :)), but it still has a harmful/restricting effect – I would compare it, in fact, to the phenomenon of decrying “people who don’t seem obviously disabled” using disabled parking places, or “people who are scamming the system” on disability – ostensibly to “help” people with “real” issues, but in fact creating a hostile environment.

  52. Men sitting spreadeagle quickly learn to sit with their knees together when another man takes the spare seat.

  53. I remember being pregnant and standing on the DC Metro. When a seat opened up, a man in the other end of the car raced me to the seat. He won, because at that point, I could barely waddle.

    “Reverse chivalry,” maybe?

    It was the last straw for me. I started driving to work the next day.

  54. Yeah, to clarify – I’m not saying guys are justified in keeping their legs spread wide apart when doing so intrudes on someone else’s allotted space. As I noted in my OP, that’s not cool. My point is simply that it is genuinely more comfortable for many/most guys to sit with their legs apart, and that my anecdotal experience is that this preference seems to be more common for men than women. In short, I suspect part of the reason women are so frequently disdainful of this habit (again, not talking about crowded spaces) is that it’s generally less of an issue for them. Indeed, most women I know well enough to have seen relaxing on their couch at home often ball themselves up with their feet pulled up on the seat next to them, and I don’t know a single guy who finds that comfortable. I think it’s that guys are, on average, larger, less flexible, less used to balling up like that, and yes, we also have some parts between our legs that tend to get in the way from time to time.

    Again, guys should just suck it up and deal like everyone else when the place is crowded, but the actual preference for splaying ones knees is not, in my opinion, problematic or worthy of the eye-rolling it so often elicits from women.

  55. And, for people with not-immediately-apparent conditions that make standing on public transit difficult, we don’t even need someone to publicly shame us.

    When I have someone asking me to give up my seat, it all depends on how they ask. I don’t feel shamed if someone is polite about it. If someone gives me a dirty look, I usually just ask – “What?” If they launch into how I should give up their seat, I tell them why I’m not doing it. Either they understand, or they become rude, at which point I get mean and nasty right back. At no point do I feel shamed, though. Some people are just plain rude on public transport, but it’s ultimately a reflection on them, and not me. If they’re inwardly judging me – it’s not my problem either.

    It’s the same with asking for a seat. I have to do it a lot, if I am feeling terrible (yet do not look it). Sometimes, someone is unwilling or unable to give up their seat, and I make no judgments about that person. I judge people who are aggressive.

    We just have to hear the chatter that “boy, I saw this pregnant woman/obviously disabled person/elderly person get on the bus the other day, and there were seemingly abled people there who didn’t stand up, how rude!” and know that automatically, it is being applied to us.

    I don’t apply that to myself. I’ll remind people that sometimes it’s possible not to see or notice the fact that someone is sitting down because, guess what, they need to sit down. But do I honestly care as to whether I’m not I’m being conflated with some rude guy who sees a pregnant woman and thinks “why should I give up my seat just because you got knocked up and aren’t rich enough for a car” on public transport (I’ve known guys like that, unfortunately). Because sometimes you honestly can’t tell.

    Some people are assholes on public transport. Others are just trying to get to work/home/their favourite fetish club/etc. Sometimes, we can’t tell who’s who.

  56. I remember being pregnant and standing on the DC Metro. When a seat opened up, a man in the other end of the car raced me to the seat. He won, because at that point, I could barely waddle.

    LOL! That happened to me this very morning! I actually wasn’t aware that I was being raced, until he practically shoved me out of the way.

    I can still waddle quite a bit, but I obviously wasn’t quick enough, haha. I gave him a big smile and called him the Russian equivalent of a “knight in shining armour.”

  57. R.Dave: My point is simply that it is genuinely more comfortable for many/most guys to sit with their legs apart, and that my anecdotal experience is that this preference seems to be more common for men than women. In short, I suspect part of the reason women are so frequently disdainful of this habit (again, not talking about crowded spaces) is that it’s generally less of an issue for them. Indeed, most women I know well enough to have seen relaxing on their couch at home often ball themselves up with their feet pulled up on the seat next to them, and I don’t know a single guy who finds that comfortable. I think it’s that guys are, on average, larger, less flexible, less used to balling up like that, and yes, we also have some parts between our legs that tend to get in the way from time to time.

    Umm, yeah, it’s actually way more comfortable for women to sit with their legs relaxed and apart, too. But we don’t. Because doing so would mean we either get dirty looks for being ‘unladylike’ or we start imposing on someone else’s space. It has nothing to do with what’s ‘natural’, women are completely socialized to sit with our knees together, no matter what, ALL of the time. Even curling up on your couch at home. Men are not socialized to do this. It’s not comfortable for anyone to sit with their knees squeezed together, but women manage to do it. Also bullshit on the ‘guys are larger’ excuse, I’m a not-so-thin 6’1″ woman and I manage to take up less than my share of a train or bus seat. I frequently have to shove myself into the corner and put my legs on an angle away from men who sit next to me AND are smaller than me and feel that their balls are 4 feet wide, because why?

  58. @L – exactly. It’s not terribly comfy for anyone to sit knees and ankles together!

    R.Dave- It’s just that those of us raised /socialised /presenting as women have had it drilled into our heads from the time we could sit that “Nice girls keep their knees together”. Of course it’s more bloody comfy to sit like a froggy, or cross-legged and sprawling, my hips are misaligned (scoliosis) and I’ve never been ok sitting straight, but after being called a “dirty tramp” by friends at 15, for daring to sit on a park bench with my knees slightly apart (in an ankle-length skirt no less) it’s hard to break the conditioning. Even now in my wheelchair, where I need to sit with my knees relaxed, I often feel self-conscious about my pose.

    That’s why there’s a sense of “Oh the poor menz”, because of the hilarious male assumption that your narrower, designed for sitting/walking skeletons are simply much less easy and comfortable to travel about in than the wider-hipped birthing model dished out to cis women.

    Come on, think about it, about the contortions and discomfort involved in keeping knees together when hips are further apart. Now think about how much shaming, and pressure has to have been collectively asserted upon half the population to get them to never even dream of lolling splay-legged in public.

    Privilege, aint it grand?

  59. In short, I suspect part of the reason women are so frequently disdainful of this habit (again, not talking about crowded spaces) is that it’s generally less of an issue for them. Indeed, most women I know well enough to have seen relaxing on their couch at home often ball themselves up with their feet pulled up on the seat next to them, and I don’t know a single guy who finds that comfortable. I think it’s that guys are, on average, larger, less flexible, less used to balling up like that, and yes, we also have some parts between our legs that tend to get in the way from time to time.

    In addition to the other comments that sitting position is from socialization and privilege, a women who’s comfortable putting her feet up on the seat next to her would obviously take up more space than one seat as well if she sits like that. Yet, while I often see women sit like that on couches – and move as soon as someone looks like they might want to sit next to her – I rarely see that on a bus or something (unless it’s nearly empty). Also, despite your clarification, I think we are talking about crowded places. Well, not necessarily people on top of each other crowded, but limited space. I don’t think anyone ever cares if they’re on a bus with 3 people and one person takes up 4 seats, but if you’re trying to limit the amount of space you take since there’s others around you, and then there’s some dude nearby taking up a bunch of space unnecessarily it’s really annoying. I personally like to sit “indian style” (I know that’s a bad name for a sitting position, but it’s what people know) but I wouldn’t on a bus because my knees would be in other people’s seats. I am sure that everyone has their own preferred position that takes up more space than a bus seat, but it doesn’t work when we’re all together and it’s not at all fair for one segment of the population to ignore that.

  60. @shimmoril:

    I personally go grocery shopping at rush hour cause there’s more frequent bus service, and I have to make a transfer, too – rather than waiting 20-30 minutes for each ]bus, I wait for maybe 10 at the most, multiply that by 4 and that’s easily an hour shaved off my trip. Plus, in my city you can have buses literally right behind one another during rush hour, and in that case there’s likely to be more room for me and my groceries on one of them.

    In general, I agree about the invisible disabilities. I have kidney disease and frequent kidney stones, so by now I’m pretty good at hiding the pain and the fact that I’m stoned halfway out of my mind. So one of those times, I was taking the metro to the hospital, and the last open seat was a disabled one, so I sat in it because I was totally going to faint and throw up if I stood. Then I got some guy (who was sitting in a seat that was equally accessible, but not marked) chewing me out for not leaving it open for “people who really need it.” Yeah, thanks for informing me of that, I’ll just stand over here so that when I throw up it’ll be all over your designer coat…

    And I do agree that the worst thing ever is the “My backpack needs its own seat!” people. I’ve seen multiple guys on crowded buses, where there were many people standing, practically start a fight by refusing to move their backpacks. It just boggles my mind – if it’s too precious to put on the floor it can go in your lap, and if it’s too gross to go on your lap it’s too gross to go on a seat that someone else is going to be sitting in later.

  61. 1-) In Brazil it´s law: there are seats specially designed for pregnant women, people carrying babies, seniors and disabled people. And yes, they have special lines too.

    2-) At least here in Brazil pregnant women are considered a kind of sacred thing. Maybe it´s a Latin American thing. It´s not a matter of chivalry, but of decency.

  62. I get that some people have reasons for needing to sit down, but yes, the ball-breathing splay-ers and the seat for my backpack-ers piss me off something fierce. I’ve gotten to the point where I’m obnoxious about it – “Hey! You’ve got an extra seat, and this bus/max/streetcar is effing packed! Mind sharing that with someone who needs it?” I’ve yet to have anyone say no.

    Our transit has marked seats specifically for “elderly, pregnant, or people with disabilities,” and I don’t know how many times I see big ol’ dudes sit there because there’s more leg room. Empty train, fine, but when it starts filling up and a lady with crutches is balancing precariously, like I saw coming home tonight? Holy cow, my cranky side comes out. Luckily, I’m more or less immune to being called a bitch, and when such an epithet comes (which it inevitably does), I simply point out, “Yes, but I’m right.” I’d say it works 95% of the time.

  63. Paraxeni nailed it. The idea that *all* adults with testicles have the right to additional space because some small percent of adolescents most of whom have a rare congenital malformation will be harmed by sitting with their knees together is asinine.

  64. André Kenji: 1-) In Brazil it´s law: there are seats specially designed for pregnant women, people carrying babies, seniors and disabled people. And yes, they have special lines too.2-) At least here in Brazil pregnant women are considered a kind of sacred thing. Maybe it´s a Latin American thing. It´s not a matter of chivalry, but of decency.

    Thats awesome! Oooo I don’t like when a person wih a small child is standing, give up a seat if not for the small child (especially if the bus or train is crowded, then for the person with the child so that they can sit with the small child safely in their lap and out of the crowd.

  65. André Kenji:
    1-) In Brazil it´s law: there are seats specially designed for pregnant women, people carrying babies, seniors and disabled people. And yes, they have special lines too.

    I’m not sure if it’s “the law” here in Atlanta, but our transit system, MARTA has signs that mark seats for the elderly, pregnant or those with LOTS of gear (maybe going to the airport). I think it’s just a suggestion, but a lot of people adhere to it.

    I am fat, but do not look pregnant, but have been given seats on crowded trains cause some folks are just nice. I’m never too afraid to ask someone with an empty seat, “Excuse me” and start moving in to sit though.

    Spay Your Sea Kitten:
    Men sitting spreadeagle quickly learn to sit with their knees together when another man takes the spare seat.

    TOO TRUE. I have often had men who spread their legs so wide (while my legs are crossed at the ankle and under my seat so that I am sitting straight backed) that they’re touch my knees with theirs and I hate it. Or I had to sit sideways in seat with my legs in the aisle (our train seats don’t face the aisle).

    I’ve been nearly cursed out for asking people to turn their music down (I could their music over my music!). I’ve been shown a crack pipe, asked how many children do I have, am I married, etc.
    Public transportation has that sometimes unfortunate, annoying, sometimes scary public element, but I still prefer it to the stress and costs of driving.

  66. Kristen J.’s Husband:
    Paraxeni nailed it. The idea that*all* adults with testicles have the right to additional space because some small percent of adolescents most of whom have a rare congenital malformation will be harmed by sitting with their knees together is asinine.

    I agree men don’t deserve to take up more space.

    But also, I feel like you shouldn’t have even mentioned that malformation, because now I’m feeling as if you’re coming off as a bit of an ass. I mean, I for one would feel a little angry if it were my congenital malformation and then you went and called it asinine.

    Can we have a conversation that doesn’t exaggerate the problem? For example: My assertion is that some men probably splay their legs out a touch more (not spread-eagle) for ball-related comfort, and some probably do it out of some sense of macho space-domination.

    Am I being a horrible patriarchical goon for trying to posit a genuine, sensical explanation for some of these mens’ behavior?

  67. Only by ignoring the women on this thread who said we too would love the extra leg space for comfort reasons but have had the shit shamed out of us every time we’ve tried.

  68. I didn’t call the malformation asinine. I called the *notion* that *all* men need extra room because *some small number* of adolescents have a medical need to do so asinine. Adolescents with a medical condition have a reason splay their legs, others trying to use that as an excuse for bad behavior is not reasonable.

  69. L: Umm, yeah, it’s actually way more comfortable for women to sit with their legs relaxed and apart, too. But we don’t. Because doing so would mean we either get dirty looks for being ‘unladylike’ or we start imposing on someone else’s space. It has nothing to do with what’s ‘natural’, women are completely socialized to sit with our knees together, no matter what, ALL of the time. Even curling up on your couch at home. Men are not socialized to do this.

    Men are actually socialized not to sit that way.

    This is amusing:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpoHEsw9r78

  71. I’m a woman, and guys sitting with their legs open on public transit annoy me.

    I remember when I was a little girl, whenever I sat with my legs open, my mom would scold me and told me that if I sat with my legs open, I would be inviting grown men to look at my crotch, and then child molestors would target me. Or at least that’s how I interpreted it.

    It’s pretty asinine when guys here claim that women sitting with our legs closed is because of biology. Really, check your privilege. Just nobody kept scolding you for sitting with your legs open, it doesn’t mean that everyone else had the same freedom.

  72. PrettyAmiable: Only by ignoring the women on this thread who said we too would love the extra leg space for comfort reasons but have had the shit shamed out of us every time we’ve tried.

    Maybe it’s just because I’m defiant, but I dont sit with my knees together. I don’t and it’s way too uncomfortable for me to sit with my knees together unless its a short seat. I seat with my ankles crossed and my knees slightly separated. If I am sitting in a public seating place I only take up MY one seat but there are people who take issue with my knees not touching. The “I dont give a flying f**k” look mixed with my ability to not care enough to give them more than that usually shuts up any ignorant comment before its verbalized.

  73. I am a woman who sits with my legs spread. Actually, I also sit a lot in the “masculine” ways described by the guy in the video linked by Grafton above – legs crossed, but in a way that takes up space, and with my arms over the backs of things. It was something I did without thinking as a teenager – I sat in the way that felt most comfortable. The first time I heard someone talk about it as a masculine/male type of body action, I thought, “Hey, cool, I’m not constrained by gender stereotypes!”

    Yeah. Busted.

    I am a woman, but I am also cis, white, and middle-class, and not “visibly” queer or disabled. I was never as deeply socialized in feminine stereotypical behaviours as I might have been (being a social outcast meant that the pressure to conform came with more stick and less carrot, and, despite the pain, punishment is not as effective a teaching tool as rewards are), but the truth is that my comfort with masculine stereotypical behaviours (sitting with my legs spread is only one of several I indulge in) comes more from the protection of those privileges than any liberation from sexism and gender role conformity. When I realized that, I started to police my own body more – not to take up less space as a woman, but to take up less space when I was taking it away from someone else.

  74. Also, given how much some people seem to take it for granted that testicles need space, depending on the shape and size of a person’s labia, clit, etc., hell yes sometimes it’s not comfortable for all that to be squished in there together (especially if, like me, one has trouble with off-the-rack untailored pants not fitting the curve of the hips properly and the inseam gets all up in there). Balls aren’t the only aspects of genitals that need space sometimes. A vulva isn’t just a slit that seals up neat and tight like Barbie’s crotch.

  75. “When I realized that, I started to police my own body more – not to take up less space as a woman, but to take up less space when I was taking it away from someone else.”

    I had kinda a similar experience when I started engaging with feminism, except with policing how much I was using my body to dominate spaces in discussions. It’s almost semi-conscious now, I just tend to default to a much quieter and smaller version of my body when I’m engaged in spaces that I’m at risk of dominating. Which is probably why I’m so suspicious of the men-take-up-space-because-balls argument, because I’m aware of how contextual my own use of space is.

  76. Sometimes, if I see someone who may or may not be pregnant/old enough to need a seat I pretend I need to get off at the next stop, casually gesture for them to take the seat, and then sneak on to the next subway car down the line. It makes it less likely I’ll offend someone and I’d always rather err on the side of offering when not needed than making someone who needs it stand 🙂

Comments are currently closed.