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Why under-educated pop stars should probably not try to talk politics.

Jill

Oh Justin Bieber, your hair is so pretty but you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer:

In his new Rolling Stone cover story, Justin Bieber tackles the hard stuff: sex (“I don’t think you should have sex with anyone unless you love them”), politics (“I’m not sure about the parties, but whatever they have in Korea, that’s bad”), health care (“Canada’s the best country in the world. We go to the doctor and we don’t need to worry about paying him”), and the big one, abortion. “I really don’t believe in abortion,” Bieber tells the magazine. “It’s like killing a baby?” But what if that baby (baby, baby, oh) were a product of rape? “Um. Well, I think that’s really sad, but everything happens for a reason. I guess I haven’t been in that position, so I wouldn’t be able to judge that.”

Yes, ladies, everything happens for a reason — including being raped and getting pregnant. Maybe next time the Beebs gets into an accident or suffers an injury, he should tell himself that everything happens for a reason, and so there’s no need to avail himself of Canada’s excellent health care system. Wouldn’t want to interfere with God’s plan. That’s what the Koreans do.

Also, this is why reporters shouldn’t ask ignorant-ass pop stars about politics. Ask him more about hair products. The people have a right to know.

140 thoughts on Why under-educated pop stars should probably not try to talk politics.

  3. It’s very easy to have that opinion too when the chances of you getting raped and pregnant are non-existent.

    I agree with Andrea though, another black-mark for us Canadians was producing him…

  7. As much as these quotes from the article make me do a facepalm, I can’t help but feel that the kid got screwed over. The kid is talented at what he does and I don’t think forming political opinions are his forte. If I would have been interviewed at the age of 16, I’m sure I wouldn’t have sounded too bright, either.

    Still, someone needs to let him know that what he said with rape is definitely not OK. If we make Miley Cyrus apologize for nude photos and smoking weed, we need to make Bieber apologize for saying something so ignorant. He has a HUGE fanbase who idolize him and will defend him.

  8. OK, look, I’m all for mocking the willfully ignorant and douchey, and I don’t agree with Justin Beiber’s thoughts on abortion (as well as disturbed by his ignorance of geography).

    But.

    He’s a 16-year-old boy. He’s not a 40-something dude in Congress writing bills, he’s not a widely-read pundit, he’s not even an adult. I’m uncomfortable with holding a 16-year-old to the same standards as we do adults. When I was 16, I read The Fountainhead and came away from it thinking Ayn Rand was awesome. Obviously, my thinking has. . .evolved since then.

    I don’t think it was appropriate for the journalist to interview him about politics–I mean, come on, that’s like interviewing Jim Bob Duggar about the 90’s riot grrl scene. It almost seems as if the reporter sensed that the whole Biebermania thing was turning around for a backlash and was using this as a way to get a cheap laugh at the expense of, well, a kid.

  9. Okay, Nickleback is all on you Canada. But I admit that Usher played a humongous role in making Justin Bieber a sensation, so the US and Canada should share culpability really.

  10. I’m conflicted about holding a sixteen-year-old to the same standards as an adult.

    On the one hand, it’s ageist to think teenagers won’t have educated political opinions (I was lurking on Feministe when I was sixteen, okay). And he’s not a young teenager: in two years he’ll be able to vote, and he is currently legally able to consent.

    On the other hand, teenagers often having fucking stupid political opinions, because they tend to have less experience of the world, and some allowance has to be made for that.

    On the first foot, he’s a pop star. Do you really think these are his opinions, instead of what his handlers told him to say? His handlers need to be less fucking stupid.

    On the second foot, he’s a pop star, not even his handlers are likely to be political junkies. There is a reason musicians are usually asked about their hair, their romantic relationships, their musical influences and maybe their taste in comic books. They’re not qualified for much else.

    1. Oh I totally agree. The reporter shouldn’t have asked him those questions. But he is also 16 and famous, and so maybe should have said “I don’t know”?

      1. And again, with the recognition that the reporter shouldn’t have been asking about this, now that the cat is out of the bag I do think it’s important to push back, given Bieber’s ridiculous reach and influence with pre-teen and teenage girls.

  13. SheelzebubI’m uncomfortable with holding a 16-year-old to the same standards as we do adults.When I was 16, I read The Fountainhead and came away from it thinking Ayn Rand was awesome.

    Did you grow up in Texas, too? Reading Ayn Rand at age 16 was nearly mandatory. Fortunately I discovered Kurt Vonnegut soon after.

  14. On the one hand, it’s ageist to think teenagers won’t have educated political opinions (I was lurking on Feministe when I was sixteen, okay).

    True. But most teens aren’t mature–they are still kids and they are still developing and growing. I think it would be great if Bieber had educated political opinions. He doesn’t–and right now, I just feel kinda sick about people mocking him for it. Because. He is sixteen. It seems that in a lot of quarters, people are going off on him for acting like, well, a teenager.

  15. @Gretel–HA. No. Massachusetts. I kept dozing off in study hall, and the English teacher who oversaw it was sick of it and assigned it to me. He was my English teacher so I had to read it. Then I liked it (well, the ideas. I always thought she was a crappy writer). Which I think scared him.

  16. Grew up in TX, thought Rand was the ish when I was a junior in high school. But Rand was pro-choice — indeed, her analysis was that keeping abortion legal was the pro-“sense of life” position. In one of her early works, a husband who pushes his wife to get an abortion she doesn’t want to have is presented as a better person than she.

    RS was taking a shot at the poor kid. I hope whatever backlash comes at him is in a kind enough form that he actually learns something about feminism instead of getting embittered.

  18. andrea: I’m ashamed to be from the same country as this little twit.If it wasn’t for the healthcare, I’d move to avoid association.   

    As long as you don’t move west, to Alaaaska…speaking of reasons for national shame…. 🙂

  19. Personal Failure: He’s a 16 year old boy, what do you expect? I think Bieber’s music is obnoxious, but cut the kid a break.  

    I don’t know that we can. This kid has an audience, a young easily influenced female audience. Him telling anyone that pregnancy through rape happens for a reason cannot just be ignored or dismissed as oh he’s just 16.

  20. Jill: You guys also gave the world Nickelback. What’s going on up there?  

    You don’t want me to start listing horrible US bands, right? 😀 ‘Cause that’s a losing game.

    (I do, however, apologize for Celine Dion.)

  21. I don’t think I’ve seen a ‘do that perfectly feathered since I was in elementary school. In 1978. 😉

    Ahem! I kind of agree that we need to cut the kid some slack, given that lots and LOTS of issues seem very black and white at the age of 16. I’m pretty sure that even my opinion of reproductive choice has grown and changed a bit (although I’m pretty sure I was always pro-choice). However, I think we can *totally* take the reporter to task for asking a teen pop star about political issues, because hey — he’s a KID. And given the difficulty that *adults* have saying “I don’t know…not really familiar with the issues…”, I’m not going to insist that a 16 year old do that. *I’ve* only gotten good at that within the last few years or so, and I still fumble.

    His handlers should probably be chastised, though. Not only did they not prep him for this sort of interview (and I don’t mean hand him the answers, I mean insisting that he be an informed person), they allowed someone to essentially mock the pretty boy pop star. That’s kind of cruel. 🙁

  22. “Um. Well, I think that’s really sad, but everything happens for a reason. I guess I haven’t been in that position, so I wouldn’t be able to judge that.”

    Am I the only person that thought the second half of this kind of makes up for the first? I mean he gives his gut opinion which granted is horrible but then immediately says that having not been through that he can’t really judge.

    Which seems fairish to me, for a 16 year old at least. Seeing people being able to say, well maybe I’m not qualified to answer that seems like a pretty good step. Or maybe the internet has lowered my standards for humanity too much?

  23. This kid has an audience, a young easily influenced female audience.

    1) If they are young and “easily influenced” then so is he.

    2) People change their minds about things from childhood to their teenage years to adulthood–and even in adulthood.

    3) Justin Bieber is not Hilter Fucking Youth.

    4) When I was 14, I loved Motley Crue. It is safe to say that I didn’t share their opinions of women when I was an adult. I didn’t really think about their opinions of women when I was 14.

    5) If we’re concerned about the “young and easily influenced” tween fan-base of Justin Bieber, I think it would be far more constructive to think of effective ways to engage with them than bash a 16-year-old boy who isn’t up on world politics, reproductive rights, and healthcare policy.

    1. Sheelzebub, I don’t disagree that Bieber is young and shouldn’t have been asked about politics. But that happened. And now his comments are being widely disseminated. I haven’t said he’s the Hitler Youth or that he’s a terrible human being. I’m pointing to his comments and saying they’re unintelligent and uninformed, and that reporters probably shouldn’t ask politically ignorant pop stars about things like abortion and North Korea. I guess I’m confused as to what your point is — that we should just ignore it?

  24. Jadey:
    You don’t want me to start listing horrible US bands, right? 😀 ‘Cause that’s a losing game.(I do, however, apologize for Celine Dion.)  

    I usually just like to start listing awesome bands that the U.S. seems to ignore, for some reason.

  25. I think it’s condescending to say “He’s sixteen, cut him some slack.” When I was sixteen, my classmates and I were perfectly aware that not everything happens for a reason. We were also familiar with the main American political parties. If Bieber isn’t willing to think deeply about complicated issues, he shouldn’t talk about them, because his opinion is worthless.

  26. He’s a 16 year old boy, what do you expect? I think Bieber’s music is obnoxious, but cut the kid a break.

    Sorry, no. This is insulting to 16-year-olds. I agree with Jill that the point is not so much his ignorance as it is the dissemination of it; but to just write this off as typical 16-year-old immaturity is overkill. Typical 12-year-old immaturity, maybe.

    I mean, for fuck’s sake. “whatever they have in Korea, that’s bad”? Sorry, a 16-year-old doesn’t get to write that one off.

  27. I think what else we can take from this is the shocking lack of education he seems to be getting from wherever he’s supposed to be getting his schooling from. His inability to even really talk about the political parties and to instead sum it up as “Not Korea” is especially telling of a lack of education. Look I was ignorant as a tee, I was a supporter of the Canadian Alliance Party, the most right wing major party in Canada, but I had political views I knew what the parties were, there’s no excuse at 16 to not be able to talk about Liberals and Conservatives, NDP, Democrats, Republicans whatever. That he doesn’t have any political knowledge just 2 years away from being able to vote is horrifying

  28. Jill, that comment was in response to the assertions I’ve seen in this thread that Bieber’s got some kind of huge influence over pre-teen and young teen girls. It all sounds so ominous. His influence is fleeting at best.

  29. @ Lara (26) Exactly. Young women are heavily influence by their idols, I know I was. I can’t imagine being a young girl who’s a victim of rape hearing Justin saying “Meh, it happens”.

    I came to be aware of the pro-choice movement, and “No means no” (which we were taught at school, but it didn’t ring true enough there) through my teenage love for Eddie Vedder. At 16, a group of us watching MTV Unplugged as he scrawled ‘Pro-choice’ on his arm, and sang about “Saying no.. when she says no, you’ve got to stop”, that fired us up in a way that comprehensive school sex/relationships education never could. We looked up to him, this worldly American man, who sang songs and made statements that moved us. One friend got up the courage to report someone who was molesting her, because of the message she heard in a song, and she wasn’t the only one of us inspired by those we looked up to.

    It seems almost silly to say that now, as a 33 year old, but it was true. We didn’t have internet then, being ‘alternative’ was not cool and we were frequently beaten and spat upon for daring to be different. So we decided that if we were going to be different anyway, we might as well put that to good use. No use taking beatings for nothing, when we could have strength in numbers and prove that our people weren’t ‘bad’ because of how we dressed, or the music we played.

    Our little collective of rock/metal/hippy ‘losers’ gathered informally on saturday afternoons in a local city, listening to new music (awful fifth-hand bootlegs on c60 tapes) and talking about politics. We marched against racism in our city, and for women’s aid groups that operated refuges, and organised little music festivals that gave the proceeds to charity. Music did that, it sparked something in us. It’s important to people, whether it’s pop-fluff like Bieber and Miley, or politically inspired rock. Justin may only be sixteen, but people look up to him. Being sixteen isn’t an excuse for anything.

    @Jadey – Celine, Schmeline, we know you’re all sorry about that – what about Bryan Adams, huh? He buggered up our charts for weeks with that song at #1! I still retch when I see the colour green, or think about forests.

  30. Lara Emily Foley: This kid has an audience, a young easily influenced female audience

    A young, easily influenced female audience who are also capable of being raped and getting pregnant. I don’t think I would care as much if I wasn’t positive that there is at least one girl who loves Justin Bieber and was raped – and as a result had an abortion.

    You know what most sixteen year olds don’t have? PR reps. This boy has been coached on this kind of thing.

  31. Paraxeni: @ Lara (26) I came to be aware of the pro-choice movement, and “No means no” (which we were taught at school, but it didn’t ring true enough there) through my teenage love for Eddie Vedder.At 16, a group of us watching MTV Unplugged as he scrawled ‘Pro-choice’ on his arm, and sang about“Saying no.. when she says no, you’ve got to stop”, that fired us up in a way that comprehensive school sex/relationships education never could.

    Yeeeeeeeep, this right here. Me too.

  32. 1) If they are young and “easily influenced” then so is he.

    His audience is predominantly 12 (or thereabouts.)

    He looks like a kid. He is not a kid, he is a young man.

  33. Same here. In 1994 Eddie Vedder could have told me to take a long walk off a short pier, and I would have put on my running shoes.

    Florence:
    Yeeeeeeeep, this right here.Me too.  

  34. No, Auguste. At sixteen, he’s still a minor. He’s older than 12, and he knows better about certain things, but he’s not an adult–not developmentally and not legally. He shows all of the eloquence that most of the sixteen-year-olds I knew when I was 16 had. IOW, very little.

    I mean, great, you at 16 or other 16-year-olds you knew were super special snowflakes who knew lots about the world and were perfectly informed about things and never, ever put their foot in their mouths. Most 16 year olds are still learning about themselves and the world.

    Feel free to disagree with Bieber or point out why he’s wrong. I just happen to be creeped out when adults call a 16-year-old stupid and a twit and worthless for showing the attributes most 16-year-olds show. And not for nothing, but there are plenty of adults who’ve put their foot in it and who haven’t gotten the fucking drubbing this teenager’s getting here.

  35. Actually, I appreciate finding out if the people I financially support are dumb little assholes. Not that I was buying Bieber’s music, but, hey, you get the point.

  36. Oh, also? As someone who was 16 not terribly long ago, I resent people chalking this up to his age. Some teenagers are quite intelligent and well-reasoned. Some people are not, even in their 50’s.

    1. Imagine a 16 year old version of Lady Gaga professing to be pro-choice. I bet you would be heaping all kinds of praise on her for her intelligence and thoughtfulness on a the issue.

      Not if she were like, “I’m prochoice because, it’s like, fetuses are kind of weird?”

  38. I mean, great, you at 16 or other 16-year-olds you knew were super special snowflakes

    Give me a fucking break.

    who knew lots about the world and were perfectly informed about things and never, ever put their foot in their mouths.

    Most 16 year olds are still learning about themselves and the world.

    But he’s not learning shit about the world, and he’s telling us about it. You can continue to believe this is the typical level of ignorance of a 16-year-old if you want, but it’s unfair to him (because it validates whatever sad lack of education his handlers are making sure he’s provided with) and it’s unfair to regular 16 year olds. They’re smarter than you’re giving them credit for. That’s all I’m saying.

    And, relating to the comment you were actually replying to, saying “he should know at least a LITTLE better than ‘Fucking Korea, how does it work'” is not the same as removing the agency of his 12-year-old fans.

  40. Bieber is totally disenfranchised and it’s up to us feminists to defend his apolitical and/or pro-life commentary based on ageism. Right.

  42. Dude, fetuses are weird. I got a newsletter in my inbox this week with one particular bullet point letting me know that my fetus was now ingesting hir own urine.

  43. I got a newsletter in my inbox this week with one particular bullet point letting me know that my fetus was now ingesting hir own urine.

    Seriously? Why does it take them so long to figure it out?

  44. “Not if she were like, “I’m prochoice because, it’s like, fetuses are kind of weird?””

    I’m pro-choice because, like, one of the things with socialism is that you should give your womb to the USSR. And I’m not cool with that. The USSR can go to hell. Yay, capitalism!

    I mean, seriously, a reasonably attentive fourteen-year-old should be aware of the fact that there’s more than one Korea, that one of them is a dictatorship, and that this has been causing some problems lately. If only because they keep giving their missiles names that Westerner teens tend to find hilarious.

  45. But he’s not learning shit about the world, and he’s telling us about it.

    And all I’m saying is that it’s creepy that a pack of grown-ass adults are going off on this kid for not demonstrating the critical thinking skills you think he should have at this point. FFS. He’s a minor. There’s a huge difference between saying “Wow, his comment on abortion is really fucked up” and “He’s stupid” “worthless” a “twit” and worse. I don’t mind name calling or vitriol when it’s aimed at adults who’ve been douchey, not teenagers who have shown a lot of ignorance on the issues.

    And back to my original point–the reporter was obviously trying to use this kid to get a cheap laugh at his expense. Maybe this makes me a PC meanie-butt, but I think that’s exploitative. And a little fucked up.

    You can continue to believe this is the typical level of ignorance of a 16-year-old if you want, but it’s unfair to him (because it validates whatever sad lack of education his handlers are making sure he’s provided with) and it’s unfair to regular 16 year olds. They’re smarter than you’re giving them credit for. That’s all I’m saying.

    Ignorance is not the same thing as stupidity, though. And “normal” 16-year-olds stick their foot in it all. the. time. “Normal” 16-year-olds don’t have the maturity that your average 25, or 30, or 40 year old has. They don’t have a horde of grown-ass adults tearing them a new one for it, either. I’ve seen more slack extended to adults who have said and done far fucking worse.

    But you know? Forget it. Bieber is obviously a giant, mind-controlling alien who has inordinate power over 12-year-old girls who must be saved from him by calling him stupid and worthless and worse. Or something. Maybe we can join the Tea Baggers who are all pissed at Bieber over his healthcare comments and Demand He Clarify His Positions On the Issues. Because hordes of 12-year-olds are influenced by him.

  47. preying mantis: I mean, seriously, a reasonably attentive fourteen-year-old should be aware of the fact that there’s more than one Korea, that one of them is a dictatorship, and that this has been causing some problems lately. If only because they keep giving their missiles names that Westerner teens tend to find hilarious.  

    And there was the time North Korea signed up for facebook as a “man” who was “interested in men” and then took it down and called it all a massive conspiracy after they started getting laughed at.

    Seriously though, I agree with PA – think about the effect on his fans who are 12-yr-old rape victims. “Everything happens for a reason” is something ppl hear more than enough already in this culture, they don’t need to be hearing it from their idols. When I was 16, this is not something I would have said, ever. Ever.

  49. Oh Todd and 0-9 troll, back to your MRA playgrounds please.

    So, I wasn’t the only mini-fem made by EdVed I see. I had a little group of friends, myself included, who would’ve followed him to the ends of the earth if it weren’t for the fact we survived on pocket money! Oh the hours we spent trawling market stalls for smearily printed bootlegs…

    The impression people like him made on a group of girls from a pit village (mining village) in the North-East of England can’t really be stated in words. So remembering that, and how I felt at 15/16, is why I can’t give JB a free pass.

    Politics and my personal experiences (abuse, poverty, exclusion) mattered as much then as they do now. They made me who I am today, and one day the members of the Bieber Brigade will be 33 too. He’s a media product, and today every soundbite matters, every word will be analysed to death (whether it’s in context or not), so if his handlers want him to be immune to criticism they need to make sure certain topics are off-limits until he has the awareness to realise that he has certain privileges that many of his fans do not.

  50. I agree with Sheelzebub. Calling him “stupid” and a “twit” is ridiculous. I mean, it’s awesome that all of you were intelligent, well spoken, thoughtful and critical thinkers at the age of 16. Really. But a lot of 16 year olds aren’t. I was a smart, straight A student, and I still probably couldn’t have produced an eloquent response to a question on world politics. When I was 16, I was far more concerned with my social/love life, and my family than politics. Most of my reading consisted of fiction. I didn’t really start thinking about these issues until senior year of high school/college.

    Also, what’s the problem with his response regarding Canada and health care?

  51. Oh Todd and 0-9 troll, back to your MRA playgrounds please.

    Why is it that Liberal blogs only want fellow Liberals to comment or act intolerantly towards those who disagree with them? Is this why you shout down people like Ann Coulter at universities? And what is MRA?

  52. …Because we don’t like you? We’re bored by your uneducated drivel? We aren’t granted any courtesy in your space so we don’t feel obligated to offer you any? No offense dude, but that’s a pretty poorly thought out question.

  53. We’re bored by your uneducated drivel?

    Presumptuous and wrong. My space is open to all, and most of the people commenting are Liberal. I wade in others space occasionally, it always proves to be very enlightening.

  54. Blue Collar Todd: Is this why you shout down people like Ann Coulter at universities?

    People like Ann Coulter get shouted down at universities for, among other reasons, telling a Muslim student to “ride a flying carpet” instead of taking a plane. Bad example.

  55. I would check it out, but see points one and two. Given that you were talking about liberal spaces in general, I thought it would be assumed that you understood “your space” in my comment to be conservative spaces in general. I should have realized that I would be unclear to you.

  56. @Blue Collar Todd “Imagine a 16 year old version of Lady Gaga professing to be pro-choice. I bet you would be heaping all kinds of praise on her for her intelligence and thoughtfulness on a the issue.”

    This post has not focused on the fact that Bieber is pro-life, rather, it seems that most commenters are upset that he implied women get raped ‘for a reason.’ This is incredibly offensive (though, I am aware he tried to backtrack the hell out of there in his next sentence), and the feminists here worry about how young fans of his who are rape victims might react to this.

    Oh, and I hope I’m not misreading this, but it seriously feels as though all of the ‘he’s only 16 – give him a break’ is code for ‘boys will be boys’. I thought, regardless of how old you are, if you are a public (or even not a public) figure you should be held accountable for the things you say. When 16 year olds say stupid things in real life, do parents, teachers and other people just agree with them? Say ‘awww, how cute!’? What the hell would would anyone learn if no-one ever confronted anyone else with an alternative opinion? And while calling people names isn’t necessarily the most effective way to respond to stupidity in all circumstances, sometimes it is just what is needed to let someone know that they hold an opinion that is offensive to other people. Sometimes it is necessary for rape survivors (and survivors of other types of trauma) to cuss at people who deny their experience in order to express their rage.

  57. I’m going to agree with Sheelzebub on this one. I for one tend to disassociate songs from the political messages that they might carry. Same thing with other media too. Mel Gibson might be an anti-semitic, drunk bastard, but I still like some of his movies.

    With regard to the beebz: I’ve come to the conclusion that Bieber is probably talented, even though his songs suck. Maybe when he writes something tasteful in ten years I’ll listen to him again.

    But hey, maybe I too have failed to understand the ultimate mind-controlling power of the evil overlord bieber’s girlsong.

  58. Perhaps he backtracks with “I wouldn’t be able to judge that,” because he’d never been asked that before, heard the previous sentence come out of his mouth as an automatic response (probably heard it before), decided it didn’t sound right, and experienced a bit of enlightenment. People’s opinions do evolve, especially at that age (public figure or no, he’s still a kid.)

    This is no way means his music doesn’t make me barf.

  59. Um, people might want to keep in mind that one of the women blogging on Feministe began writing her extremely intelligent and challenging posts as a teenager.

    I was pretty stupid as a teenager, myself, but I was extremely socially isolated (no friends, no TV, limited access to Internet, bad relationship with my family at the time, crappy library) and my narrow-sighted and uninformed opinions were largely due to the lack of intellectual challenges in my environment rather than my age.

    I kinda resent Justin Bieber for his cooption of the “It gets better” campaign into a generic anti-bullying campaign rather than one centred on LGBT youth and this comment just makes me dislike him more. The kid has tons of money and plenty of social connections. He’s got no excuse.

  60. PrettyAmiable: …Because we don’t like you? We’re bored by your uneducated drivel? We aren’t granted any courtesy in your space so we don’t feel obligated to offer you any? No offense dude, but that’s a pretty poorly thought out question.  

    Yeah, I lasted about a week on RedState before getting banned. It is interesting to see what they really think of “freedom” though, now that Egypt has happened.

  61. So the kid isn’t the most astute political or ethical theorist. It doesn’t make him stupid. He’s sixteen years old, and probably doesn’t think about issues outside his range of interests. I’m 26, and I was more or less unable to come up with a coherent answer about anything other than Spider-Man ten years ago, much less a comprehensive and thought-out position on abortion. You want to call me stupid too?

  62. Hopi Changepurse: Perhaps he backtracks with “I wouldn’t be able to judge that,” because he’d never been asked that before, heard the previous sentence come out of his mouth as an automatic response (probably heard it before), decided it didn’t sound right, and experienced a bit of enlightenment.People’s opinions do evolve, especially at that age (public figure or no, he’s still a kid.)This is no way means his music doesn’t make me barf.  

    Well said. Thank you.

  63. Tony, freedom is for white people. I saw it on Fox News, so it must be true.

    [PS – I saw your comments at the end of the other thread and wanted to say thanks for understanding]

    @Hopi, maybe? But I can’t help but feel like what really happened is he heard his words, realized they would be divisive, then backtracked to throw a bone to whoever might be hurt by it. I think his opinions can change, but I just don’t think it would be instantaneous like that.

    Also, something that I don’t see mentioned – besides the Korea thing, he also went on to talk about how the US gouges its residents in healthcare (something we probably agree with) and actively didn’t gay bash. (OMG He’s a young Lady Gaga!). In short, he said things that would irritate conservatives too. It was kind of a clustereff of an interview. This in no way mitigates his rather ugly words for rape victims, but I’m hoping that someone on the Bieber team gets fired over this. It takes a village, I guess.

  64. What Bieber says is nothing compared to the sexist, violent, anti-women hate that comes from rappers mouths and is ignored by the media.

  65. Pro-Life sites are picking this story up as a good thing btw, they’re touting him as a young pro-lifer now. Though ironically they’re pissed at him for the rape portion too, but for his I can’t judge part.

    And I quote: ““Great news, as Justin Bieber has huge influence on young people,” he said. “But Justin, I thought you said, “It’s like killing a baby?” If it is, which it is that ,what is the problem? Why the hesitation? How come it’s OK to judge other situations but not this one?”

    Other scary quotes: “Scott Fischbach, who heads the pro-life group Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life, had speculated before today’s interview went public that Bieber may be pro-life because so many millennials are pro-life based on abortion’s consequences and seeing ultrasound images.

    “Honest and frank talk from Justin Bieber about life issues is awesome and will hopefully encourage more young people to join the cause of life,” he told LifeNews.com. “Poll after poll show that younger people are pro-life and now Bieber joins those majority ranks. Gone are the days when pro-life artists and performers needed to hide or keep their pro-life views out of the public.”

    This is why we need to talk about this and not just let it pass because he’s 16 because even if we don’t they will.

    http://www.lifenews.com/2011/02/16/justin-bieber-says-hes-pro-life-on-abortion-wait-for-sex/

  66. Forgot to make it a whole quote:

    “And I quote: ““Great news, as Justin Bieber has huge influence on young people,” he said. “But Justin, I thought you said, “It’s like killing a baby?” If it is, which it is that ,what is the problem? Why the hesitation? How come it’s OK to judge other situations but not this one?”

    “Don’t get me wrong, I’m excited that he is making this bold statement in Rolling Stone Magazine, but please let this be a learning experience for us all – when asked about abortion in the cases of rape we must answer a bit more convincingly than that,” Whittington said.”

  67. PrettyAmiable: Tony, freedom is for white people. I saw it on Fox News, so it must be true.[PS – I saw your comments at the end of the other thread and wanted to say thanks for understanding

    Oh good. I was responding on my phone so the message was a little jumbled. Glad you got it. I had also wanted to thank you for your kind comments to me on the IBTP thread. Amazing how these threads keep getting locked- appropriately, to be sure, but still.

    Yeah, it seems like Bieber was just trying to balance things out as not to offend any one group too much – I mean, he’s 16, but he’s not stupid, he knows that his fanbase is bipartisan (if that means anything). What’s more disturbing for pro choicers than his words though was the sense that he was just trying to express the milquetoast PC positions and in doing so grabbed onto the anti-choice framing when it came to abortion. It does show we have work to do on pushing back when it comes to the message in general, not just this one interview.

  68. @Lara Emily Foley

    Talk about the quote, sure. Talk about the effects of the quote. Talk about the guy doing the interview and talk about media’s obsession with political positions of celebrities. Just don’t talk about the kid himself, especially in regards to intelligence. It borders on meanspirited and I don’t want to be on that team.

  69. So, he’s fine with having sex with someone he loves, or thinks he loves, but if she gets pregnant he’d want to make her carry the child to term? She gets no say in the matter?

    I don’t know whether to even get started on the rape-for-a-reason business. I do hope one day he’ll think back to that statement and recognize how indefensible and oppressive it is.

  70. Cam: @Lara Emily FoleyTalk about the quote, sure. Talk about the effects of the quote. Talk about the guy doing the interview and talk about media’s obsession with political positions of celebrities. Just don’t talk about the kid himself, especially in regards to intelligence. It borders on meanspirited and I don’t want to be on that team.  

    He’s 2 years away from being able to vote, 2 years and he talks about Korea (which one?) in a question about presumably North American political parties? That’s a shocking lack of education. Then there’s rape happens for a reason, I don’t care about the backtrack, at 16 that’s still an appalling thing to say. It’s not just his fault though, I question whatever education he’s getting, I question his handlers for letting him answer these questions and I question Rolling Stone for asking them, thing is though I’m not gonna focus on condemning Rolling Stone because in the end all they did is ask. Bieber chose to answer how he did, he’s 16 not 5, he’s a public figure not Joe Schmoe 16 year old, he’s got media training he should be able to answer these questions better. And now he’s given the pro-life movement a new face to attach themselves too.

  71. You know what most sixteen year olds don’t have? PR reps.

    And that, in a nut shell, is the issue here. He isn’t just some 16 year old who was asked a man on the street question. He isn’t even just a musician, he’s a carefully controlled and marketed commodity. Hell, he isn’t even the kind of musician someone would do a gotcha interview with. Questions get vetted, press gets selected (because theres no shortage of people who want to do a write-up on the brand enough that they’ll play nice), the kid gets coached. What comes out of his mouth and makes it to print or the airwaves is filtered to be part of what is being sold to an audience that is far younger than he is.

    Thats what freaks me out about this interview. Theres no way its just some guy without a lot of experience sticking his foot in his mouth because of an off-the-cuff question. There was intent somewhere along the line. It almost certainly didn’t come from Bieber (no one that young with that kind of money riding on their 360 deal is going to have meaningful control over their own life), but it came from somewhere. Someone wanted those words to see the light of day; someone thought that they would be good for business.

    And they told us Marilyn Manson had a corrosive effect on our culture…

  72. Pingback: I Agree With Justin Bieber On One Thing?!? (Updated) « Rottenart

  73. Speaking as a man, I believe the only time any man should be saying anything about a woman’s right to have an abortion is when he is the father of the fetus which may or may not be aborted. ALL other men should shut up once and for all on this subject!

  74. I can’t blame RS for asking the questions. You better believe the Jonas Brothers are ready for this interview…

    Also, this is the kid who didn’t know what German was. Regardless of his (accidental?) support for socialized health care, he’s still an airhead pop star. I’m more frightened kids idolize him for his “status” than I am they’ll turn to him for political guidance. What sort of priorities do we have?

    Finally, Canada? Seriously? Sloan does not cancel out Bieber.

  75. Like others have said, I’m most upset with the reporter. Bieber likely hasn’t given much thought to abortion, at all, and an interview in such a widely-read magazine was a really unfair place for him to have to try and figure it out, for everyone’s sake. While I don’t want to be too hard on him (at least he was empathetic in the end), he’s responsible for his own words. But I’m especially concerned about the impact his words have on the scores of impressionable preteens who may not give much more thought to abortion after hearing the opinion of someone they admire.

  76. I have to agree with the people who think that a crowd of adults skewering an obviously very poorly educated and uninformed teenager is taking things to an ugly low, and those happy few who were politically aware and “mature” enough at 16 to hold the exact same opinions and outlook that they do now need to understand something here: your experience is not universal. I have absolutely no idea how (if at all) Bieber is being educated, but it’s very clear that it’s not doing the trick, especially if he doesn’t even know that Korea isn’t a single country. Not every teenager (or people in general) had or has access to the educational climate you were apparently swimming in, and the idea that ignorant=evil little twit is absurd.

    I’m not at all condoning what he said– his comments were outrageously offensive and hurtful on almost every level. However, I’m still inclined to think that they may not actually reflect any personal opinion (if he’s really formed any at all). Again, I don’t know the particulars of JB’s situation, but I do know that when some people who don’t have a good grasp of a certain issue are put on the spot, it’s very easy to parrot what you’ve heard the people around you say (particularly if they’re people you trust). I think it’s likely that he hasn’t given any of the issues any serious thought before and probably just said the first thing that popped into his mind– that question mark in his first answer doesn’t strike me as an indication of certainty (and the line “everything happens for a reason” is such a cliche that I wouldn’t be surprised if he used it without thinking.)

    Look, when I was 16, (and I’m still weirded out to realize that that was only a few years ago) I was pretty smart in a lot of areas, but in some other areas, I was a complete dumbass, and I said dumbass things. Everyone I knew was a dumbass in some respect, and I’m willing to bet that even the most politically/socially aware teenager has done or said something that someone, somewhere, will consider appalling, and which they’re probably hideously ashamed of. I’ll repeat: I think his comments were horribly offensive and hurtful. But I’ll repeat something else, more plainly: he clearly doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about, and therefore isn’t equipped to put together an informed opinion. And just because he’s two years away from voting age doesn’t mean that you get a free pass to personally excoriate a teenager who is obviously so badly educated that he probably didn’t at first realize the true effect of what he said.

  77. Well, I’m glad he said it. For all the “his handlers should have made him say something more tactful” or “he should know better/he’s better educated”

    well apparently he’s not. And maybe all this controversy will make him examine his beliefs a little. It sounds like the kid has never given the issue a minute’s thought before.

    I don’t really see how it’s “boys will be boys” when I had the same asinine beliefs on abortion when I was that age. The implication that rape happens for some kind of reason is hella disturbing, but I’m going to hope it was just a foot-in-mouth platitude attempt.

    I’m not worried that his opinion will change 12-year-olds or anyone else’s opinion; big shocker, but most people have their parents’ viewpoint at that age, and as adults if we’re totally swayed by Beiber’s careless opinion we’re probably too wishy-washy to bother with voting.

    Here’s hoping he wises up in the next couple years.

  78. Hey Canadians! Don’t beat yourself up over this kid. At least you don’t have to deal with Sarah Palin, John Boehner, Christine O’Donnel, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Teabaggers, the Koch brothers, Karl Rove, George Bush, Dick Cheney, Haley Barbour, Joe the Plumber, the KKK, Mitch McConnell, Clarence Thomas and wife, Antonin Scalia, Citizens United, Newt Gingrich, Donald ‘the combover’ Trump, -did I mention Karl Rove?- well, you get the idea. You guys have it made up there. It has to be the snow.

  79. How many 16 year olds do stupid things that are physically detrimental to them? how many don’t evenm know or have a realstic grasp of their bodily functions even after YEARS of sex ed thinking “it could never be me?!!!?” How many teenagers think they are smarter than their parents? That when they turn 18 they will magically have everything they need with a minimum wage job to live on their own and live it up BIG?

    What he said was stupid, but I wont crucify him for it. Someone TAUGHT him that BS about his abortion ideaologies and even then he admits to not really being knowledgeable about it because he knows well enough that he could never be pregnant. I don’t listen to his music, I’ve only ever really seen him dancing around in commercials and I’m not a fan of his. Bt he isn’t some political leader of teens or creating some kind of political movement. Teen fans of Chris Brown showed that if you do or say something stupid or mosogynistic they have enough sense to know its wrong and back off instead of taking it as gospel and applying it to themselves. Those that don’t have femininsts groups woh will say something about it or parents who will talk to them about it. For those left behind, the celebrity will usually offer an apology for his words or actions and let the remaining fan base know what he said/did was NOT ok.

    No need to go off on him. He needs to learn it isn’t ok too. Sometimes, its ok to teach.

  80. ugh, I can not believe I have to defend Justin Bieber. . .

    As noted above he’s a 16-year old kid and a young 16 at that. My guess is the reason he was asked these questions and answered the way he did was because, like Britney, Jessica and Miley before him, he’s been held up as the “good Christian” popstar role model. He even has the additional cred of being the illegitimate child of a teenaged girl who was (and still is) adamantly anti-choice. I am sure the perspective with which he was raised and that provided a platform for him was “mommy wasn’t a selfish bitch who murdered me so I am a huge star” with a moral that women who abort aren’t just against G-d, they may well have murdered the baby destined to be a superstar. It’s warped, I know but that is the mindset of the rapid anti-choice crowd (though they will have abortions or pay for their child’s/mistresses abortion and then be out walking the picket line the next day).

    As for the everything happens for a reason comment, the kid was referring to compounding the tragedy of a rape with a pregnancy (the pregnancy being what happened for some mystical reason, not the rape). Many anti-choice adults are bizarrely inconsistent in their beliefs of if/when abortion is or is not acceptable, so expecting a kid that may be more of a parrot to have a well reasoned response to the question of pregnancy secondary to rape is expecting too much.

    As for a teenaged lady Gaga uttering a pro-choice statement, the anti-choicers would have attacked her vociferously regardless of whether she provided an eloquent and well thought out comment or an idiotic one whereas pro-choicers would have supported a well thought out comment and publicly derided an idiotic one.

  81. The difference between 16 and 18 was huge for me. At 16, I didn’t know anything about politics except what my parents said. Then I met some other adults who asked me a lot of questions and forced me to think about the issues. By the time I was 18, my opinions had changed a lot. So, not to give Justin a free pass, but his opinions may evolve quite a bit before he ever casts a vote. And maybe he’ll look back at this interview and cringe because he was talking about things he didn’t know anything about.

  82. “Um, people might want to keep in mind that one of the women blogging on Feministe began writing her extremely intelligent and challenging posts as a teenager.”

    WORD.

  83. @Michael: That’s all very true (except for the KKK part; they are in Canada as well), but we’ve got Stephen Harper and Tom Lukiwski and REAL Women and Charles McVety and Jason Kenney and Ezra Levant and Stockwell Day and the Fraser Institute and oh, trust me, we have our fair share of ugly and senseless rhetoric north of the 49th.

  84. When I was a teenager I didn’t know a thing about politics, I was a black and white thinker who believed in “good” and “evil” and I believed the things the majority culture told me. And I still don’t know anything about Korea. I did turn into a feminist and analytic thinker as an adult.

    I think Bieber’s opinions will grow and change, and I think his fans are capable of thinking for themselves.

  85. I agree with everyone who says that this is a sixteen year boy, and not a fully mature adult we’re talking about.
    It is one thing to rightly forensically dissect his opinions and rebute them.
    But to attack him – a sixteen year old child personally, with the fullness of the rigour one would attack an adult uttering the same views is unseemly.

    the people who should be hunted and characters questioned are his handlers. who are others have rightly stated would surely have vetted these questions, AND answers.
    Why a sixteen year old canadian kid would have an antichoice view on abortion!? Because his biggest market is in the USA and his handlers are playing on the prejudices of the USA.

    also during the teenage years, arent girls on average two years more mentally developed than boys. So assuming Justin Bieber is a intellectually normal sixteen boy, he is as intellectually developed as a fourteen year old girl.

    though, ive always been sceptical about the research that claims that girls have a two year intellectual headstart over boys in the teenage years. when i was fourteen i found my female peers adoration of teenboys groups like bros, nkotb silly and juvenile.
    They must be examining certain shards of development, and not mental development as a whole

  86. I can’t accept the excuse of “he’s only sixteen, so it’s no big deal”.

    When I was sixteen, I volunteered at a rape crisis center in a city sixty miles away from me. I was adamantly pro-LBGTQ rights, pro-women rights… and I lived in a town in Texas that refers to itself as the “Cowboy Capital of the World” and was largely devout southern Baptist. I had teachers lead classes in my public school in prayer and I spoke out about it then, and I would continue do so today if I hadn’t won that battle. I educated myself about issues, because nobody there had any intention of it- my parents and I are polar opposites when it comes to beliefs.

    I’m not saying I’m the norm. But I am saying it is perfectly possible for a sixteen year old to educate himself. Especially when he is a sixteen year old who lives his life in the public eye. Especially when he has a legion of fans that idolize him.

  87. Sheelzebub: I just happen to be creeped out when adults call a 16-year-old stupid and a twit and worthless for showing the attributes most 16-year-olds show.

    Has anyone called him worthless? I said that his uninformed opinions were worthless.

  88. Again, to all the “Poor ickle Justin, he’s only 16, he doesn’t know any better” cheerleaders – what about the young people who are his fans who unfortunately do know better, who know that rape (and pregnancy as a result) happen because they’ve been there? Young girls with ruined lives who are abused and objectified not just by their rapists, but by the people who use their status (as pregnant/mothers/someone who needed an abortion) to vilify them and call them whores, skanks, sluts, babykillers etc. I bet not many people would be willing to stand up and say “Oh she didn’t know better, she’s only 12/13/14”. She won’t be defended, even though her only crime was being born with a vagina.

    It’s not Billy being vilified because he promised to “only put it in for a minute” when Katie said “No.”, he’s only Xteen, he don’t know better! It’s not Jeremy or Kyle, who forced Kyle’s cheerleader girlfriend into a threesome as a dare. They’re not to blame, she led them on! They didn’t know better, boys will be boys, girls will be sluts!!!

    To all the kids who use music as an escape into fantasy, a world away from the daily reality of being forced into sex, who can talk about Justin with their friends but not about that certain uncle… To hear “Meh rape happens, God wants it to, don’t kill your baaaaby!” from the mouth of their idol, can nobody understand how crushed they’ll be by that?

    Privilege reigns supreme, as always. Rich white boys will be rich white boys, and will be defended to the death because of that.

    Sorry, what I meant was, “poor little Justin, he just doesn’t know any better”.

  89. Emeryn:
    I’m not saying I’m the norm. But I am saying it is perfectly possible for a sixteen year old to educate himself. Especially when he is a sixteen year old who lives his life in the public eye. Especially when he has a legion of fans that idolize him.  

    No one said it was impossible for a teenager to educate himself. But what is the point of using your own (admittedly not the norm) experience to judge someone else’s?

    (And seeing how the guy is frakkin’ EVERYWHERE leads me to doubt that his handlers put much emphasis on a normal education.)

  91. At the risk of a derail: Jameseq, the adoration of pop stars is the only *socially acceptable* expression of sexual interest for pre-teen and teen young women. Young men entering or well within puberty aren’t expected to sublimate their sexual interest—if they’re cisgender and heterosexual. Boy-bands wouldn’t be anywhere near as popular as they are if young women weren’t subject to a double-standard regarding healthy lust.

    With that said, I’m with Sheelzebub. Also, I don’t think Bieber was trying to say *rape* happens for a reason, but *pregnancy*. Maybe it’ll dawn on him that in that example, the two can’t be separated. Then again, I grew up around a hell of a lot of really fatalistic people—that “for a reason” phrase gets tossed around almost as often as a greeting—a combination coping technique and verbal talisman to ward off more bad events.

    I don’t think it’s news that a spoiled white boy said something in ignorance, is all. I agree with Sheelzebub that the reporter was playing “gotcha” to a naive kid when his handlers weren’t watching.

  93. La Lubu 2.17.2011 at 12:30 pm
    At the risk of a derail: Jameseq, the adoration of pop stars is the only *socially acceptable* expression of sexual interest for pre-teen and teen young women. Young men entering or well within puberty aren’t expected to sublimate their sexual interest—if they’re cisgender and heterosexual. Boy-bands wouldn’t be anywhere near as popular as they are if young women weren’t subject to a double-standard regarding healthy lust.

    Thanks, yes I see your point.

    That Im agreeing with Sheelzebub and not Jill, surprises. Even when I disagree with Jill writings, I can usually see and appreciate her argument.

    1. That Im agreeing with Sheelzebub and not Jill, surprises. Even when I disagree with Jill writings, I can usually see and appreciate her argument.

      Well, in my defense (and perhaps yours as well?), I am occasionally totally and completely wrong. That may be the case here.

  94. Can we please refrain from ageism here? I was 14 when I started doing abortion defense work, and no neither of my parents were prochoice, and no my decision was not about rebelling against them either. I happen to believe that by the age of 16 most people have their head screwed on straight enough to understand these issues. What he is doing shows a lack of empathy for other people, not a misunderstanding caused by his age.

  95. I agree with Sheelzebub that the reporter was playing “gotcha” to a naive kid when his handlers weren’t watching.

    I think thats being a little naive in itself. Rolling Stone, even though they occasionally hire a reporter who covers something of real importance, isn’t some great bastion of independent journalism. They’re an ad rag like Cosmo or GQ, and a failing one at that. Their continued existence depends on their ability to interview and photograph musicians who work in a very small, very powerful, very rich industry with only a handful of key players at the executive level. Most of the money someone like Bieber brings in doesn’t going to him but to conglomerate that owns the label that puts out his albums and merchandise.

    In those circumstances you aren’t going to see “gotcha” interviews because no interviewer is going to risk not being able to get their next interview and a magazine like Rolling Stone isn’t going to risk their continued access to someone like Bieber (to say nothing of the other acts managed by the same big players). You are also unlikely to see a high-profile interview happen without handlers present and some influence over the final product.

    I don’t really fault Bieber much for his statements. Theres no way he’s had access to a reasonable education or the kinds of healthy life experiences that lead to maturity because of the way he’s been used to make money. I feel bad for him. At the same time, he has the ears of a lot of people and his statements deserve deconstructing. You don’t have to hate him to do that.

  96. William, I agree that his statements deserve deconstructing. I’m simply uncomfortable with a bunch of adults piling on a 16-year-old for saying stupid shit.

    What I’m not saying: Justin Bieber–or any 16 year old–can say whatever they like and no one should ever, ever criticize it.

    What I am saying: It’s kind of fucked up that a lot of adults are going beyond saying, “Hey, you need to spend more time in school and on your geography lessons” or “That comment about rape and abortion was really out of line and hurtful” to going on about what a shit he is.

    And yes, you can do that without ignoring or dismissing what young teenage and preteen girls go through.

  98. I’d love to hear from Feministe’s younger readers. I’m sure they’re out there – though I understand if you don’t want to identify for many of the reasons Chally has talked about in her posts.

    Here’s the thing. I was also wicked conservative when I was roughly his age. I wouldn’t have learned if people didn’t call me out on my rather shallow thinking processes. I got it on a smaller scale than Bieber because I had a smaller audience than Bieber (and a smaller staff than Bieber… i.e. none). And you know what? It would have irritated the hell out of me when someone told me that my opinions and my impact are irrelevant because I’m still a kid. If you disagree and think I’m a douche – I’d rather you tell me that I’m a douche than tell me I just don’t get it because I’m a kid/too young/too immature/too anything. You know what? I probably hurt someone with my nonsense and they had every right to call me out, and I’m frankly glad they did. I dunno, I’m guessing this is one of those situations where we’ll probably never convince each other.

  99. Niki:
    Hey! Don’t hate! We also gave the world Arcade Fire, Metric, Bedouin Soundclash, and Neil Young.  

    And the Tragically Hip and the Guess Who, and Matthew Good and the Headstones and Sloan and the Rheostatics and so on and so on and so on…

  100. It would do us well to remember that Feministe rather self-selects for people who were socially aware early. There are a lot of readers/posters who saw the light a bit later in life, certainly, but the number of readers who were Straight But Not Narrow and marching for reproductive rights in their teens is probably not representative of the population as a whole. I don’t have any information of the ratio of Challys to Justins out there, but my guess is it leans more to the side of the pop star. And this isn’t to say that teenagers are stupid–they just have less life experience, they tend to have smaller worlds and narrower worldviews, and they’re generally still practicing the fine art of articulating complex thoughts. I think it’s possible to simultaneously give them some credit and cut them some slack.

    As I see it, what sucks here is that Bieber, for all of the extra life experiences and exposure that he gets as a pop star, is so ignorant on these subjects. At 16, he should at least be learning about these subjects, or at least learning not to talk about things he doesn’t understand. But instead, he’s rehearsing and recording and traveling and performing. So what we have is a kid who’s been put in the public eye, with millions of tween fans hanging on his every word, who isn’t really prepared to do anything but sing. That’s a rough situation for everyone.

    It will be interesting to see how the fallout is handled. Maybe a little respectful public interaction and outreach could educate him on the subjects he’s missing, while emphasizing to his young fans the importance of really exploring and understanding these issues.

  101. The ageism in this thread needs to stop. It may be the case that some 16-year-olds have not formed opinions about the world yet, but it may also be the case that some 32-year-olds are in the same boat. That doesn’t mean “he’s 16” is a valid excuse, any more than “he’s 32” would be for an ignorant 32-year-old. Those were probably the wrong questions to be asking a pop star, yes, but those were also definitely some wrong answers.

  102. Sara: sabr

    THANK YOU. I’m so sick and tired of having everything that I have worked my fucking ass off for being dismissed because the people on this site forget that they too had opinions and the potential to do a lot of harm (or good) at that age.

  103. I’m also not trying to defend Bieber, but abortion isn’t as controversial in Canada as in the United States. Which isn’t to say that abortion isn’t an issue (particularly in terms of access), but it doesn’t dominate the political landscape and the media the way it does south of the border. Unless you’re hanging around outside of abortion clinics or with fundamentalist Christians, or you find yourself in a position where you or someone you care about needs to get an abortion, most people don’t talk about it all.

  104. sabrina:
    THANK YOU. I’m so sick and tired of having everything that I have worked my fucking ass off for being dismissed because the people on this site forget that they too had opinions and the potential to do a lot of harm (or good) at that age.  

    How is anyone dismissing you by saying that not everyone has had the same educational opportunities as you?

  105. @saberwit, sheelzebub compared 16 year olds talking about politics to jim bob duggar talking about 90’s riot grrls. That is extremely offensive first off to every single 16 year old who works their asses off to make sure that you live in a more enlightened society. Second, I’d like to point out that I was a homeschooled student who lived 36 miles from the nearest library and had dial up internet with parental controls set to the max growing up. I wasn’t privileged in my education, I was a rape survivor who was fighting for the rights of other molested children to be able to take care of themselves since their parents were either the abuser or too irresponsible to prevent it from happening in the first place. Do you want to know how I got information? I would wait for my mom to go to the store, get the phonebook and call the local legislature asking for information. I eventually managed to get ahold of a college intern who took pity on the fact that I had no access to the government and would come and get me and take me up to my state legislator with her. It’s called determination to make things better, not privilege Third, there are a lot of young girls who share my experiences of being raped and do not need to hear from yet another public figure that what we went through was all part of some mystical plan. When you are 12 and your parents abuse you and you have no one, you look up to those public figures, and you internalize the messages that they are telling you.

  106. sheelzebub compared 16 year olds talking about politics to jim bob duggar talking about 90′s riot grrls

    Actually, I compared 16-year-old pop stars who are not known to have any sort of expertise in politics talking politics to Jim Bob Duggar talking about 90’s riot grrls. Bieber is not known for being a wunderkind of policy, and I’ll stand by my statements that it’s kind of fucked up for the Rolling Stone reporter to ask him about this stuff when he’s not known for this.

    Most 16-year-olds don’t have the maturity your average 25 or 30 year old does, so his response doesn’t shock me (and no, I don’t think that 16-year-olds are stupid, and yes, I know plenty of intelligent and informed 16-year-olds but you know, there’s a diversity of experience AND when you’re developing you won’t always be on the same level as other people were at your age). It’s not ageist to point that out. It’s also not ageist to say that there’s a difference between calling out the fucked up things he said/pointing out why they’re fucked up, and grown adults piling on/mocking a teenager.

  107. It will be interesting to see how the fallout is handled. Maybe a little respectful public interaction and outreach could educate him on the subjects he’s missing, while emphasizing to his young fans the importance of really exploring and understanding these issues.

    It’ll be interesting to see if this kid will be allowed to be a damn kid and actually get a halfway decent education. I’m frankly kind of horrified that he had no clue there were two Koreas, but I won’t blame him for that. I’ll blame the people who are supposed to be looking out for his best interests–and I’m not talking about making packaged and palatable answers, I’m talking about actually making sure he’s learning. Which apparently isn’t happening.

  109. William: I hope I wasn’t leaving the impression that I think Rolling Stone is some kind of bastion of True Rock Journalism or anything of the kind; I just think this was a throw-away piece—the journalist was shooting fish in a barrel, trying to make a very, very sheltered young man look ignorant. A “can you believe he has fans?!” kind of ignorant. A “aren’t we glad we’re way too cool for this shit, unlike Bieber or his fans!” kind of thing. And frankly, coming from the Rolling Stone, with their storied history of sexism, is really rich.

    Anyway. Here’s the updated quote from Rolling Stone, since this is getting a lot of press:

    He does have a solid opinion on abortion. “I really don’t believe in abortion,” Bieber says. “It’s like killing a baby.” How about in cases of rape? “Um. Well, I think that’s really sad, but everything happens for a reason. I don’t know how that would be a reason. I guess I haven’t been in that position, so I wouldn’t be able to judge that.”

    Which is a pretty standard-issue response from white, middle-class, heterosexual, cisgender young men who’ve led rather sheltered lives. The key is “I haven’t been in that position.” I’m going to go out on a limb and say that most of the people working for justice (regardless of age) have either (a)experienced significant injustice in their own lives and (b)borne witness to a great deal of injustice meted out to others—and were able to recognize it as injustice.

    Mr. Bieber’s problem isn’t one of age; it’s one of unrecognized, unquestioned privilege.

    Speaking of privilege, people with it don’t often recognize that they have it. It’s invisible. And that’s where the age factor comes in. Age gives one more opportunity to learn that the world isn’t as limited as one’s own perspective. Some people are fortunate enough to realize that early on. Some never do, and that’s a damn shame—those with the capacity for wisdom, who willfully squander it by clinging to ignorance….I’mma go ahead and say it—they’re Doing Aging Wrong.

    Speaking of damn shames, it’s a damn shame that this conversation isn’t centered around why Mr. Bieber went for the default position of his race, class, gender on his (frankly, unconsidered) opinions, and how the dynamics of indoctrination work to keep far more people than Mr. Bieber satisifed with unquestioned just-so stories instead of engaging in critical thinking.

  110. This is why Beiber is so popular. He will only have sex with you if he loves you. And if you get preggers, he won’t leave.

    He’s like a living, breathing, Edward Cullen.

  111. Is it possible that this kid was told what to say, or at least influenced himself? Especially considering the war on women’s reproductive rights going on in the US now.. are we all sure this is a coincidence?
    Maybe I’m being paranoid… I secretly think every public figure is a puppet for some larger corporate agenda. But that’s not right. Right?

  112. William, I agree that his statements deserve deconstructing. I’m simply uncomfortable with a bunch of adults piling on a 16-year-old for saying stupid shit.

    Call me a cynic, but I don’t think its possible that he said anything that made it to print without his people being comfortable with it. There just too much money on the table for someone so small as an interchangeable byline for the words around a photo spread to have the influence or the freedom to do anything that Beiber’s handlers and the editors at Rolling Stone aren’t fine with. I think we ought to be piling on his handlers, talking about why they think that this specific message is marketable, thinking about what that says about our broader society, and wondering how the fuck we got to a place where a kid like Bieber (who, lets face it, hasn’t really had much of a shot at anything vaguely resembling a normal developmental arc) could be used as a tool for conveying a specific message in the name of making money.

    That said, I agree that we shouldn’t be piling on him. Just because the rage is appropriate doesn’t mean that it isn’t misplaced, you’re absolutely right. The Rolling Stone article, to me, seems like an attempt to market a specific worldview because someone thinks its going to make money. Worse it uses a person who, while comfortable and very privileged in a lot of ways, probably doesn’t have the emotional or educational capacity to not look like a fool because of the ways in which he has been used in the past. Someone decided to use this kid to sell the “rape happens for a reason” meme to 12 year old girls and didn’t much care that people would pile on him. On the one hand we’re seeing something very creepy being sold to kids through Beiber, on the other I worry that we’re seeing a new Michael Jackson being minted.

  113. I must admit, I’m a little confused as to why the focus has so far been on all of the reasons why Bieber’s comments should be excused. Yes, he is 16 and most of us have said pretty silly things at 16 (and probably at 17, 18, 19, 27, 40 etc. too). Yes, he may have been spouting a cliche when confronted with an uncomfortable question. And Sheelzebub – I just don’t see the adults ‘piling on’ him that you describe – the majority of the comments have been about making excuses for what he said. And Jill only called him an “ignorant-ass pop star”, and argued that pop stars are really only qualified to talk about anything but hair products which, while sarcastic, wasn’t exactly the height of nastiness. Calling him ignorant, based on ignorant things he said, not exactly out of line.

    Me, I just don’t think those excuses change the fact that he is a public figure who said something rather obnoxious, something that’s particulalry hurtful to rape survivors, in a public forum and that he should be held accountable. And particularly that he should be held accountable in a feminist space like this one.

  115. First: I agree that “everything happens for a reason” is terrible in general and especially when juxtaposed with the rape thing.

    I grew up not far from Stratford (in a smaller town further from civilization; I passed through Stratford at least once a year), but 10 years earlier than he did. I’m think I have an idea on how he was educated up until he got famous.

    To address the question of how he was educated, what sort of resources he had, I’m going to try to give some background on the area; feel free to not read it, and know that since I don’t know Bieber’s friends or family personally or anything there’s obviously a hole in my knowledge of his opportunities. I don’t mean this as an excuse, it’s just that I’ve seen lots of “well you don’t know what opportunities he had” vs. “I know white middle class boys had enough opportunities by 16”. I don’t mean to say that 16 year olds can’t or don’t as a rule have political opinions (but I do think it’s a bit weird to talk about 16 year olds being undereducated, when unless you’re a rare person who skipped a couple grades you are institutionally undereducated based on your age). I don’t mean to excuse unexamined privilege. And I fully agree that it’s appropriate to call Bieber on this, because he has a large audience and because it’s the only way he’ll ever learn (not that it should be your job to teach him, but when a public figure says stupid public things sometimes we have to).

    I don’t think the education system was really bad, per se, but it clearly had a different focus from what all of you are apparently used to if you think a grade 11 kid of average education would be much more articulate on these issues. It’s not about grade 11 kids being dumb, it’s not even that they aren’t politically engaged; I think they’re pointed in different directions.

    Rural southwestern Ontario is very capital-L Liberal as a rule, with a couple ridings as exceptions. The Conservatives did nearly sweep the most recent elections, though, after the ball was dropped on an issue important in the area — but, the Conservatives didn’t get in on anything close to majority votes (with an exception), they mostly came in by narrow pluralities with other liberal voters fleeing to parties further left. Canadian Conservatives are not the same as US Republicans and Liberals certainly are not the same as US Democrats (I’d say that really the Canadian Conservatives and US Democrats have the most in common, but that’s glossing over a LOT) but I’d make a long post much longer trying to distinguish their positions, so I’ll just call out one odd exception in the local area:

    In Bieber’s riding, the leader of the Liberal party is also the head of the most prominent anti-choice group, and the leader of the Conservative party is also the head of an opposing pro-choice group. As Debbie said above, abortion isn’t really controversial in Canada as a rule, and as a consequence when somebody does come out anti-choice they aren’t sorted along party lines like they are in the US. This always caused me much anguish at the polls — the NDP guy was even worse personally, and the other parties were even further from my ideals than the Conservatives.

    Also relevant: the dominant Christian church in the area is the United Church of Canada, which is *not* the faith in which Bieber was raised — apparently his mom’s evangelical, which helps explain his responses. The cultural background religion is quite different, and the UCC, while far from perfect (and I’m an atheist so I don’t identify with them), does not match Bieber’s position: they are strongly pro-choice, including supporting full healthcare coverage for abortion/birth control and expanding access; and basically believe who you choose to have sex with and when and why has nothing to do with marriage or the church — premarital sex and gay sex and gay marriage are not problems and according to the church they are not referenced in the bible separately from postmarital sex or straight sex or straight marriage — arguing that other denominations are basically mistranslating words as “fornication” which should be translated as “sexual assault”.

    In school, the only classes where we really talked about these issues, which appear to be much more hot-button in the US, were niche elective classes. I took some of them, but most don’t, especially not by grade 11 when your course list has very little room to manoeuvre. Bigger schools in the cities and suburbs had a lot more wiggle room. The issues you got in more mainline classes were things like:

    – Sovereignty vs. federalism (obvious example: Quebec separatism).
    – Healthcare did come up, but the debate was between fully public vs. two-tear healthcare. Private was out of the question.
    – Striking the balance between urban and rural needs for tax dollars, given that infrastructure costs were disproportionate one way and population base disproportionate another way.
    – The economic impact of farming subsidies.
    – The ethics of foreign aid (eg. to dictatorships where food money might change to gun money).
    – The ethics of trade with countries with poor labour laws.
    – Energy needs & the environment (the main industries of my town were tourism, farming, and a very large nuclear power plant).
    – Things that happened well before the teachers were born.

    International current events were pretty much a nonexistent topic, except during the fall of September 2001. I basically heard more about these issues in a couple weeks of watching the Daily Show than I got from any schooling.

    I think I could have told you that South and North Korea were very different at grade 11, but I also bet most of my peers could not have done so. Granted, the Koreas weren’t in the news as much at the time, and the emerging situation with the Taliban in Afghanistan was a topic of discussion from the mid-90s, which might be a closer equivalent.

  116. I think people may be a little too happy to jump on the anti-Beiber bandwagon. He never should have been asked these questions and he clearly doesn’t know what to say. For goodness sakes the kid even says ” I guess I haven’t been in that position, so I wouldn’t be able to judge that.”. He acknowledges that he has some religious beliefs which are his right to have and that he considers abortion murder and therefore bad; however, I didn’t see him calling for the banning of abortion. I think that it is really unfortunate that he feels the way he does and that his position as a teen idol may influence other teens but I can’t condemn him for this interview. I feel as though the entire interview was set up to start the Beiber backlash.

  117. Pingback: In which I blog about Justin Bieber « Subjective Objectivity – The Blog of The Reasonable Man

  118. Agree, for the most part, with what Sheezlebub has said. Also think it wouldn’t be a bad idea to try to kindly communicate to him and his staff why rape apology is awful and dangerous. Agree that going after him as a “twit” is screwed up in this context, but also feel like ignorance that doesn’t get called out sticks around. How do we become more knowledgable, caring adults or even just people, if no one calls out when we say something totally ignorant? We don’t have to be mean about it, but people learn by getting feedback from the world.

    One other thing. I’m an entertainer, and there’s a part of me that really feels for Justin in this instance (if it matters, I’m not a fan). When you’re a musician, or for that matter a ball player or a dancer, on any level and especially the level he’s at, society has this weird expectation that you know everything, that you be right about everything, that you be able to opine about everything, and simultaneously that you offend no one or at least that you offend the “right” people. And Jill, I hear you when you say (paraphrasing) that maybe he should have said “I don’t know”, but I gotta tell you, my experience is that those of us in entertainment are never, ever taught that it’s okay to say “I don’t know, ask someone who does,” and there’s tons of pressure to come up with something trite and clever (otherwise they’ll stop LIKING you and no one will come to your shows ever again OMG). Someone needs to tell / teach entertainers that it’s okay not to know, and that sometimes, it’s actually damaging to pretend you do know when you don’t. This could be a real good opportunity.

  119. La LubuSpeaking of damn shames, it’s a damn shame that this conversation isn’t centered around why Mr. Bieber went for the default position of his race, class, gender on his (frankly, unconsidered) opinions, and how the dynamics of indoctrination work to keep far more people than Mr. Bieber satisifed with unquestioned just-so stories instead of engaging in critical thinking.

    Pa-DOW!

  120. La LubuI don’t think it’s news that a spoiled white boy said something in ignorance, is all. I agree with Sheelzebub that the reporter was playing “gotcha” to a naive kid when his handlers weren’t watching.  

    Definitely agree.

  121. sabrina: Can we please refrain from ageism here? I was 14 when I started doing abortion defense work, and no neither of my parents were prochoice, and no my decision was not about rebelling against them either. I happen to believe that by the age of 16 most people have their head screwed on straight enough to understand these issues. What he is doing shows a lack of empathy for other people, not a misunderstanding caused by his age.  

    Congratulations. Developmentally speaking… Hell, speaking from *experience,* I doubt that most of us were as evolved as you at 14.

  122. I’m a little more troubled by the fact that he petted Esperanza Spalding’s afro like that… I guess I expect spoiled teenage dudes to have unformed/ignorant politics. But entitlement to invade personal space like that… And the kind of paternalism one needs to justify petting a grown person’s hair without permission… And the racialized nature of the encounter. Eh, that one gets me on a more visceral level.

  123. You’re worried he’s gonna become a pedophile?? Why?

    I’m worried that when you take a child, take them out of school, take them out of developmentally appropriate pursuits, take away their ability to socialize in healthy ways, subject them to the kind of scrutiny that public figures are subjected to, open them up to the extremes of love and hate that fuck up even adult celebrities, inject a ton of cash, and then surround them with people who see their lives only as a means to a paycheck you’re going to end up with a very damaged child. Beiber doesn’t seem to have quite as toxic a family that Michael Jackson had, but I still worry that he isn’t going to come out of this rise to stardom whole.

  124. A lot of you are sounding off on the interviewer for having a cheap laugh, and I’m surprised that none of you pointed out this: What if the questions he asked were just routine or random questions, not just for Bieber, and JB just didn’t have an intelligent response for ANY of them? That would be sad if that were the case. And, to all of the adults who are saying anything about him being 16 (whether it be “cut him some slack” or “God, he’s stupid. Why isn’t he clued in?”) I’M 16. I would be able to talk about any of the things he was asked which is probably why the interviewer asked them, probably not expecting half of the ignorance he got in return. I just feel sorry for him growing up in a (in a phrase) “yeah, tha’s coo’ man,” frame of mind. His handlers probably think “Oh, he’s too cool to learn anything. He doesn’t need to know that much, people will think he’s cool. He’ll be grand!”
    Oh, and I like Nickelback! *hides from shower of tomatos*

  125. While his fans are tween girls not likely to read RS mag, the parents that buy the ticket may. I think a quick dismissal of this kid is underestimating the fact that his views seem to align with Conservative Evangelicals who are behind the attempts to de-fund Planned parenthood, make it ok to murder abortion providers and the wingnut in Wisconsin trying to bust the teachers’ unions.
    Is anyone else here alarmed over the ongoing religious war happening plain-as-day here is the states under the guise of parties with tea? Maybe I need to read the archives.

  126. Lyn: I must admit, I’m a little confused as to why the focus has so far been on all of the reasons why Bieber’s comments should be excused.Yes, he is 16 and most of us have said pretty silly things at 16 (and probably at 17, 18, 19, 27, 40 etc. too).Yes, he may have been spouting a cliche when confronted with an uncomfortable question.And Sheelzebub – I just don’t see the adults ‘piling on’ him that you describe – the majority of the comments have been about making excuses for what he said.And Jill only called him an “ignorant-ass pop star”, and argued that pop stars are really only qualified to talk about anything but hair products which, while sarcastic, wasn’t exactly the height of nastiness.Calling him ignorant, based on ignorant things he said, not exactly out of line.Me, I just don’t think those excuses change the fact that he is a public figure who said something rather obnoxious, something that’s particulalry hurtful to rape survivors, in a public forum and that he should be held accountable.And particularly that he should be held accountable in a feminist space like this one.  

    Thank you for this intelligent remark. I think there is a lot of gibber jabber going on but the actual simple truth of what this boy said is being overlooked in the sea of over-educated responses. The Beiber is rich and becoming quite influential, just the type that needs to be nipped quickly.
    What he said is terribly hurtful to women and caters to extreme religious beliefs; that come hell, high-water or rape a legal abortion is murder. Very scary to see feminist write this off as “silly-pop-star-opens-mouth-ain’t that cute”.

  127. I think there should a bit more consideration about how Bieber’s life is very different from most teenagers who have ever been or will ever be in existence.

    As Cha-Cha said, in entertainment it is never okay to say to an interviewer, “I don’t know.” You’re trained to always have something to say and it’s clear Bieber was not trained on questions like these. It’s also clear he’s not all educated about these issues & he is literally trying to work it out as he’s answering them.

    However, what he said has & will hurt a lot of people, including fans who’ve had to deal with these issues that Bieber admittedly has not.

    2 years seemed a long time to me when I was 16 and so much can change in that time.

    All of this will hopefully reach the Bieber’s Team ears & will be used a learning experience so at the very least he’ll never say something so hurtful again.

  128. Maybe he answered in this way because he wants to maintain a certain fanbase? Christian teenage women or something. I think that the journalist was playing with Bieber but that Bieber knew exactly what he was saying in terms of trying not to ‘offend’ people and believing what he said. And totes with the living, breathing Edward Cullen thing–exactly.

  129. Chalk me up with the people who think this thread is very disappointing in the light of what Chally’s been saying here for ages.

    Also, am I the only one disturbed at how rape, abortion and pro-life/pro-choice is being turned into this incredibly complicated theoretical political issue where it is ~totally understandable~ that a teenager would know next to nothing about it? Even aside from the ageism, I mean. This isn’t some kind of abstract academic discussion. There are sixteen-year-olds who have been raped, there are sixteen-year-olds who have had abortions or tried to get abortions and couldn’t. I find the idea that a lot of teenagers *haven’t* really thought about rape and abortion before disturbing – even if you’re a cis guy, you can still be raped and you’ll have friends and classmates and acquaintances and family who can get pregnant. And it’s not like pro-life is the default position and pro-choice is some kind of advanced position that you come to after a lot of research and interrogation!

  130. To all the people complaining about a “bunch of adults” criticizing a poor wittle 16-year-old: I’m only four years older than Justin Bieber. Does that mean I get to criticize him, or am I being a mean adult because I’m 20 now instead of 19? I realize there’s a lot of growing up that happens between 16 and 20, but I still vividly remember what it was like to be 16.

    I’ll be the first to admit that when I was younger I didn’t always have the brightest political opinions. I was pro-life by default until age 12, because that’s what my parents and church said was right. But all it took to change my mind was a friend showing me a story in a teen magazine about a girl who decided to get an abortion. Because I (a) was capable of empathy, and (b) encountering a peer who was pro-choice turned it from mythically evil stance to one that was held by real people, peers of mine that I respected. My stupidity didn’t end there – I was a Republican at age 14 in 2004, until a frenemy brutally disabused me of my parroted opinions by engaging me in frequent debates that made me actually start THINKING.

    But you know what? I don’t necessarily blame my age for any of my ignorance. Sure, I got a real strong dose of conservative brainwashing. But the reason I actually believed it was because of PRIVILEGE. I didn’t know anyone who went through an unwanted pregnancy. I didn’t know anyone who had been raped. I didn’t know anyone who was poor. But while I was being a blissfully ignorant 14-year-old white girl from a 1950s-style white middle class suburb, there were other girls who knew what it was like to be raped, to be pregnant, to get abortions, to have babies, to be living with the knowledge that their family didn’t have the money to care for another baby (mine could have supported me if I had gotten pregnant, even if they would have made my life a living hell out of misguided “morality”).

    I said there was a big difference between 16 and 20 for me, because it meant going from living in my parents’ middle class home where all my needs were met to supporting myself through college with no assistance. But I bet a lot of teens grow up earlier than I did, because some people have to start helping support their families financially as soon as they can work, which would be at….oh, age 16!

    So if I was ignorant at 12, or 14, or 16, it was because I was young and PRIVILEGED. And the privilege here is the real culprit, because it is what insulates young people from having to face the real world. This is a point I think Sabrina made beautifully. I could afford to ignore the problems she poured her heart into fixing – not because I was young, but because I was lucky enough not to be victimized. It wasn’t her fault she was in a bad situation, and it wasn’t my fault that I was in a good situation – but the right thing to do when you’re fortunate is to learn what it’s like to be less fortunate, and try to help, or at least not do any more harm.

    So, I learned about privilege. As early as ages 12 and 14 I started learning; as soon as I was exposed to alternate views I tried to understand, and I’m still learning. This is not because I was a super-smart extra-special teenager. Anyone can do it, and Justin Bieber especially has plenty of resources. He has all the money power, and opportunity he needs to engage in this same learning and be a decent person – but unfortunately that money, power, and opportunity is exactly why he doesn’t understand. He needs wake-up call, or he’ll stay in his privilege-bubble. That’s why it’s ok to criticize him, even harshly. The problem is not that 16-year-olds can’t understand the issues – they can, if they use their hearts and their brains.

  132. @La Lubu:

    Why does it have to be either or? Clearly he has unrecognized, unquestioned privilege. He’s also 16; neurologically speaking there is a big difference between 16 and 20. When you combine privilege with the state of neurological development and education level that MOST (not all) 16-year-olds experience, of course many of them will say stupid shit.

    This doesn’t in any way deny the existence of smart, articulate 16 year olds nor does it imply that they should be dismissed because they’re 16. Hell, I was one of those 16-year-olds. The way I thought then was nevertheless a lot less analytical and a lot more black-and-white than the way I think now, at 23.

  133. Aack, that HTML came out wrong. Let’s try that again.

    La Lubu: Mr. Bieber’s problem isn’t one of age; it’s one of unrecognized, unquestioned privilege.

    Why does it have to be either or? Clearly he has unrecognized, unquestioned privilege. He’s also 16; neurologically speaking there is a big difference between 16 and 20. When you combine privilege with the state of neurological development and education level that MOST (not all) 16-year-olds experience, of course many of them will say stupid shit.

    This doesn’t in any way deny the existence of smart, articulate 16 year olds nor does it imply that they should be dismissed because they’re 16. Hell, I was one of those 16-year-olds. The way I thought then was nevertheless a lot less analytical and a lot more black-and-white than the way I think now, at 23.

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