Kristin, i second that emotion. This goes way beyond Egypt. There are demonstraions in Thailand no demanding that that interim, place-holder PM step down. I hope this reaches to Washington and London and Paris and even wannabe-colonial Beijing. I hope people there take the right lesson from all of this.
I am still not sure why the liberal consensus is that this is a good thing, particularly for American interests. Mubarak managed to clamp down on radical groups and maintain peace with Israel. We don’t want another Taliban-like safe haven for international jihadist groups. I am not saying that will happen, but I have not heard a convincing explanation as to why it will not.
seachange: I am still not sure why the liberal consensus is that this is a good thing, particularly for American interests.Mubarak managed to clamp down on radical groups and maintain peace with Israel.We don’t want another Taliban-like safe haven for international jihadist groups.I am not saying that will happen, but I have not heard a convincing explanation as to why it will not. Because all people in the Middle East should not be forced to live under a military dictatorship because it might be of benefit to Israel and the United States. Because of principle. And because, if you are not satisfied by the copious amounts of evidence (presented on all news outlets) suggesting that Egypt is not hospitable to a “Taliban-like regime,” then you are not paying attention.
seachange: I am still not sure why the liberal consensus is that this is a good thing, particularly for American interests. Mubarak managed to clamp down on radical groups and maintain peace with Israel. We don’t want another Taliban-like safe haven for international jihadist groups. I am not saying that will happen, but I have not heard a convincing explanation as to why it will not. (Quote this comment?)
Because instability emerges from the US supporting a dictatorial regime. Because true stability can only result from supporting basic human values like dignity and justice.
seachange, this won’t answer your question completely, but this article by Juan Cole gives a good analysis of why Egypt is not like Iran, one of the comparisons that has been talked about when fears of an emerging theocracy are spoken of: http://www.juancole.com/2011/02/why-egypt-2011-is-not-iran-1979.html Also, please, give the people of Egypt some credit for being smart enough to not just fall in lock step behind some jihadist boogieman of western imagination. Give them credit for what has so far been some incredibly sophisticated organizing efforts coming from all political and religious persuasions and motivations. Some of the political (non religious) factions, like the April 6 group, have been working at this movement for democracy for years. (see this program from Al Jazeera: http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/peopleandpower/2011/02/201128145549829916.html ) If you’ve ever been a part of large protest mobilizations you’ll know that maintaining such a large, prolonged presence such as they’re doing in Tahrir/Liberation Square is not an easy task (think of the logistics of food, sanitation, health care/first aid, communication, etc for millions). The people of Egypt organizing in the streets are Muslim, Christian, atheist, and agnostic, and there are many groups besides the Muslim Brotherhood that will continue to be at work in Egyptian society. The people have managed to create a revolution, and though it’s not going to be an easy process, I have faith that they can create a democracy free of theocratic repression.
victoria: If you’ve ever been a part of large protest mobilizations you’ll know that maintaining such a large, prolonged presence such as they’re doing in Tahrir/Liberation Square is not an easy task (think of the logistics of food, sanitation, health care/first aid, communication, etc for millions). I know! I’ve been amazed by this every day.
@seachange: go read this and then this. The idea that Egyptians must live under tyranny, otherwise horrible things will happen, is either blatant Islamophobia and imperialism, or a strikingly candid and honest admission that the interests of the US and Israeli states rely on tyranny and the oppression and exploitation of others. The people of Egypt have completed a political revolution – they’ve kicked Mubarak out – but the larger and more difficult social revolution remains – the one that changes the basic social relationships for society. I’m really afraid that the military will refuse to let go off power and the Egyptian people won’t be able to seize it, or that they’ll end up with just a choice between members of the elite (like much of the Global North) – but the amount of bottom up organization and direct democracy in the revolution is incredibly inspiring, and I think is resounding through the world right now.
The people of Egypt have completed a political revolution – they’ve kicked Mubarak out No. The man still officially in charge is Omar Suleiman, Mubarak’s head torturer, and the chief power in Egypt now is the army. This isn’t the completion of a political revolution – it’s a first step. All sorts of things could still go wrong, including enthusiastic US support for installing the head torturer as the new head of state.
seachange: I am still not sure why the liberal consensus is that this is a good thing, particularly for American interests. I’m not certain why on earth we should be focusing on American interests when talking about Egyptian politics. American-centric privilege much?
Yonmei: The people of Egypt have completed a political revolution – they’ve kicked Mubarak outNo. The man still officially in charge is Omar Suleiman, Mubarak’s head torturer, and the chief power in Egypt now is the army. This isn’t the completion of a political revolution – it’s a first step. Seconded. What’s also not over is we don’t know what the long term effects of this will be on the other Arab regimes and what kind of power transfers would happen were those regimes to be weakened or even fall.
seachange: I am still not sure why the liberal consensus is that this is a good thing, particularly for American interests.Mubarak managed to clamp down on radical groups and maintain peace with Israel.We don’t want another Taliban-like safe haven for international jihadist groups.I am not saying that will happen, but I have not heard a convincing explanation as to why it will not. and maybe the democratic government of Egypt will do the same thing, except this time, it will be an indigenous democratic movement that can serve as an inspiration to the rest of the region. The more democratic that the middle east is, the better it is for us. The better it is for everyone.
@Jim There has been unrest in Thailand since long before the Egyptian “revolution” (in scare quotes because it’s still not a full revolution, as some people are suggesting). I think the Thai situation may be a little more nuanced than Egypt’s as well, especially in regards to the conditions leading up to the protests. Regardless, solidarity with the Tunisian, Egyptian, Yemeni, and other peaceful protesters!
victoria: Also, please, give the people of Egypt some credit for being smart enough to not just fall in lock step behind some jihadist boogieman of western imagination. In the specifica case of Egypt the jihadist bogeymen of western imagination was in most respects Mubarak’s fabrication. This paid off two ways. The first way it paid off was he was able to completely destroy any secular opposition, the real threat to his power. The seocnd was that since he understood the US’s only real concerns WRT to Egypt, Israeli security and suppressing jihadism, he could make himself look like an irreplaceable ally. Well, he has just found out how replaceable is – he doesn’t even need to be replaced. Seachange, this can be a good thing regardless of whether it’s a good thing for the US or not. The two things are not directly linked. But as other people have pointed out, getting out from behind dictators and onto the side of decent governments, or at least siding with people working to get decent governmets, is supposed to be a good thing for the US. But again, that last is a very secondary concern. Anyawy, this is when the real work starts in Egypt. God strengthen them for it. They already showed by their non-violence agianst overwhelming provocation over several days, an especially in the wake of Mubarak’s insulting speech, that they certainly do have the moral toughness and clarity of vision to make this work.
Miku: There has been unrest in Thailand since long before the Egyptian “revolution” Yes, Miku, and yes to the whole rest of your post. The tumult over Thaksin has been going on for quite a while now, and quite a bit more violently.Ii was just referring to this very latest bit. The timing is suggestive
victoria: seachange, this won’t answer your question completely, but this article by Juan Cole gives a good analysis of why Egypt is not like Iran, one of the comparisons that has been talked about when fears of an emerging theocracy are spoken of:http://www.juancole.com/2011/02/why-egypt-2011-is-not-iran-1979.html Thanks for the link Victoria. I hope everything turns for the well-being of all. Women have the most as stake in this situation. Only a prolonged war is likely to have more impact on men and boys than in women and girls. I understand the doubts of people: Religion was not a factor in URSS, but the transition was a disaster. Secularism, is no panacea. I hope the people is able to get into power, and not a different dictatorship, even is secular, rise to replace the fallen one. If Egypt is able to made it, it will be a shinning star for all the people on the Middle East and that will be a powerful tool to challenge anti muslim bigotry all over the world.