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Because Street Harassment Is Not Ok

Jill

It is a rare occurence that I make it through a full day without getting harassed on the street by strange men. I can’t remember the last 24-hour period in which it didn’t happen — the only exceptions I can think of are the few days where I didn’t leave my apartment. It’s frustrating, exhausting, and an experience that most young women I know live with. To be quite honest, it’s to the point where much of the time I don’t notice it anymore — or at least, I expect that when I leave my house, it’s gonna happen.

This is a big, big problem in New York City, and now some powerful women are talking it on with Holla Back New York City. Next time some dude harasses you, snap his picture and send it in. Hot shit.

98 thoughts on Because Street Harassment Is Not Ok

  1. It is a rare occurence that I make it through a full day without getting harassed on the street by strange men.

    That’s city living for you. Some people find it worth the grief; fuck if I know why.

  2. I really like the idea of women doing something like this, but at the same time it raises a concern: by stopping and trying to take a photo, are you a bit more vulnerable to an assault? (Vulnerable by stopping as opposed to keeping on the move.)

    Still, it seems as if this Holla Back will discourage at least some of the a–holes.

  3. I wish someone would start some serious public information campaign about street harassment.

    Maybe when I finish my thesis…

  4. I don’t question that it happens but what do you consider “street harassment”? In another thread “J” suggested looking at her body was “bad”. Based on what she has said, I don’t think that Jill would consider looking as harassment – being pretty she surely is used to people of both sexes looking. I’m just curious.

  5. Harrison: I don’t think women will stop and take pictures if they feel they’re in any way in danger.

    And although I think this is a good idea, and women should speak out about street harassment, I think it’s also valuable to make the distinction between harassment and…. Not-harassment. There are lots of respectful and well-intentioned guys who are afraid of their actions being misinterpreted and looking like a “creep” or a “stalker” or whatever. I speak partially from experience.

    For example, if an average sort of guy says, out of the blue, “you have very pretty eyes” to ten random women, he’ll get a wide range of responses, based largely on the personality and life-experiences of the women. This kind of points to a tension of what model to use to define harassment as “harassment” — a if-s/he-thinks-it’s-harassment-it’s-harassment model, or one that attempts some kind of “objective” definition?

    Wow, I’ve gone way off on a tangent. Anyways. I think we can agree that guys shouldn’t be publicly shamed for telling a girl she has pretty eyes, but, that said, men should be very aware that women don’t necessarily want their opinion, and to keep it to themselves. *shrug*

    That said, there are a lot of things that I think earn a public shaming, website style. Although I think the value of the website is more as a venue to discuss experience than the shaming side of it. I dunno. Just by initial impressions.

    I remember very clearly walking to see Hot Hot Heat (this was a few years ago, when they first kinda broke — they were hometown heros, so I couldn’t resist) with my friend, who was wearing a cute plaid skirt, fairly short. I’d never personally witnessed street harassment before, but that night, I definitely did. It wasn’t subtle, and I can’t remember any comments exactly, but I remember very clearly thinking that the comments were, without question, harassment. I was angry about, and it really affected me when she just kinda shrugged it off.

  6. That’s city living for you. Some people find it worth the grief; fuck if I know why.

    I hear you, brother. New York is a cesspool. It’s #2 on the list as one of the Top Five Urban Shitholes in the United States. Here’s the rest:

    1-Chicago (go figure)
    2-New York
    3-Washington, D.C.
    4-Los Angeles
    5-San Francisco

    How can you reside in a place like NYC and complain about strange men harassing you? Why not start in on the bumb shitting in an alley or the heroin addict passed out on the sidewalk?

  7. A bum shitting in the alley or a junkie passed out on the street isn’t a direct attack on anyone’s personal dignity.

  9. Gah, it cut off my post. Reposts. *cries*

    Omg, they live in the city so they should expect that kind of abuse.

  10. I don’t know what’s going with the posts getting cut in half, so ignore my comments. I was being sarcastic. Sigh.

  11. Hey, you can get street harrassment right here in the middle of the Bible belt. I’ve had men make nasty comments to my teenage daughter WHEN I (her mother) WAS SITTING OR STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO HER. And she says it’s even worse when she’s out with her friends.

  12. Hey, you can get street harrassment right here in the middle of the Bible belt. I’ve had men make nasty comments to my teenage daughter WHEN I (her mother) WAS SITTING OR STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO HER. And she says it’s even worse when she’s out with her friends.

    I’ve walked down the street with many attractive women and I’ve never heard anything that could qualify as harassment (I ignore looks (even lingering looks) because I know that women don’t like you getting into fights for that kind of thing). Now, granted I’m a big guy and men may have decided saying something might not be worth get the shit kicked out of them. BUT what constitutes harasment? I really want to know.

  14. I don’t question that it happens but what do you consider “street harassment”? In another thread “J” suggested looking at her body was “bad”. Based on what she has said, I don’t think that Jill would consider looking as harassment – being pretty she surely is used to people of both sexes looking. I’m just curious.

    ‘Tis a good question. There’s one account on that site, of the guy in the art gallery, which, while not wishing to minimise the experience/distress of the poster, could quite easily get read as socially-inept-man-trying-to-be-friendly. One of the running forums I frequent has a recurring debate between men who think lone female runners are rude for not responding to their friendly greetings, and lone female runners pointing out that a strange man yelling ‘Hi!’ at you on an abandoned trail is somewhat unnerving.

    For me, there seems to be an easy-to-make separation between just lookin’, and aggressive looks followed up by a search for a response – either through eye contact, or an ‘amusing’ line. Similarly, I think it’s quite easy to tell, with most unsolicited contact, whether it’s meant as harassment or (over?)friendliness. Trouble is, that distinction is often through tone and body language, rather than simply words or gestures.

    I’d appreciate a better way of phrasing this…

  15. I looked through that site and if my count is correct I saw almost all men of color, and then combine that with the term Holla Back. I’m down with women standing up to street harassment, but that site makes it look like the problem is brown and black men harassing innocent White chicks…..Did you notice that?

  16. The thing I also find bizarre…

    When I had long hair, I got yelled at. I started wearing my hair up most of the time – got yelled at much less. Went out wearing it down a couple of times over this period – was subjected to audio-blizzard of yells. Got my hair cut to chin-length – yelling almost disappeared again.

    (I don’t think it’s a terrible haircut…)

    The whole experience started to make me wonder if harassment is some sort of Pavlovian response: ‘Long hair! Lady! Must shout obscenity!’

  17. I’m down with women standing up to street harassment, but that site makes it look like the problem is brown and black men harassing innocent White chicks…..Did you notice that?

    streetharassmentproject.org has a similar dynamic going on. They don’t seem to know why, either.

  18. I think street harassment has a socioeconomic element to it. (This is all based on personal experience though.) I notice that when walking through my neighborhood (predominantly black/lower income bracket), there’s A LOT more harassment. When I go out to my other haunts (I am generally one of the few non-white and non-trust funded folks there), there’s less harassment, more regular ole awkward romantically tinged interaction.

    I mean, I guess if you’re a guy with less money/power, you might develop a little extra venom towards women. Women are still viewed as a commodity. The more money you have, the more access you have to females: particularly the more “top-shelf” females. Maybe if you don’t feel like you can “afford” women you’re attracted to, or feel that you deserve, you start openly belittling them? A sort of sour grapes syndrome?

    Just a hastily thought out theory though. It’s possible that they’re just assholes. That’s generally what I mumble under my breath.

    And I totally relate to Liss! Short hair completely changes everything. (For some reason, suit and tie men are most responsive to my short shags.)

  19. I’ve noticed the same and similar as Rachel.

    While I think that street harassment should be stood up to, and that women _do_ have the right to feel safe and human no matter how enticing they dress, many of the posters to these forums aren’t doing feminism any favors.
    They make it clear that given any contact whatsoever, even the slightest, the choice of interpretation shall be based more on whether or not they find the man attractive (including whether or not he’s Brad Pitt and whether or not he’s of the preferred skin color), and not so much on just what happened (including treating a fleeting glance from an unattractive guy the same as a slap on the rear from a more attractive stranger). I see this sort of behaviour all the time, so seeing it formalized on a website is just that much more disturbing. I also feel a bit nauseas when I see notions like ‘I have the right to sunbathe topless in the middle of the city or where a skirt that doesn’t leave anything to the imagination without anyone so much as looking at me,’ and know that they are predominant amongst certain subcultures. “Some [expletive]’s fantasy” is an assumption. I’m an artist, I used to work in a personnel department of sorts. If I look at a uniquely dressed girl to admire her, it’s because I perceive and wish to momentarily appreciate beauty, not because of some sick fantasy. And that’s the thing, I never make more than a glance, and never make cat-calls or lewd comments or any physical approach or contact whatsoever.

    Harassment is by definition, action without cessation with intent to worry, upset, or bother. One “you’re very pretty” is not harassment. Two, however, could be. I will gladly stretch the definition to include a sort of collective repition, such as cat-calls that by collective repition have the same effect even once. If I follow you down the street to reiterate that “you’re pretty” thought, obviously harassment. If I follow you down the street because we’re heading to the same building, not harassment. If I hang outside your building in order to tell you that each morning, harassment. If I sit by you on a packed bus each morning because we live or work together, not harassment. If I make a cat-call, harassment. If the word “baby” comes out of my mouth, probably harassment. If the word “lovely” is used as noun, pronoun, or appositive title, harassment. If the word “lovely” is used as an adjective, not harassment (e.g. “That’s a lovely dress.”)

    I have no problem with women standing up for their right to, well, be women in peace. However, I am greatly disturbed by the fact that the definition of harassment depends on the guy’s looks more than what he does, and this happens a LOT.

    I’m also slightly bothered by a specific incident on one of those sites. If the guy asks “What do you intend to do with the picture?”, the answer is “Put it on a website because you’re harassing me.” Feel free to follow it up with “if you leave me alone, I’ll delete the picture,” but if he’s dumb or drunk enough to be acting the way he is (this case was a case of _real_ harassment), not clueing him in to the fact that his actions are creating consequences does nothing to teach him a lesson. In all likelihood, this is being done entirely behind his back, because boys like this don’t visit feminist blogs. Talking about him behind his back isn’t helping out any of his potential future victims. It also smacks of cowardice and lends an unnecessary sense of pretense to the general idea of standing up against harassment. Act like you’re commiting King-style civil disobedience: if you’re going to take action because it’s truly the right thing to do, there’s no reason not to be honest about it and face the consequences. If you’re not willing to be honest about it, do you truly believe it’s right? Or are you just trying to feel good about yourself by posting and snickering?

    Sorry for the length of my comment, but living around many physically attractive women with a sense of entitlement that goes well beyond equality makes this a very sore subject for me.

  21. Funny. Thanks to the WONDERFUL implementation of that site, the best I can get out of it is an audio stream, but it’s enough to be entertaining.

    No, mostly it isn’t that, but perhaps the idea of feeling like I’m constantly walking on eggshells (no pun intended) to avoid offending women despite doing nothing wrong. Though, I must admit, I have actually taken the longer route home or passed quickly ahead at times on a bad day, just to avoid walking too close to an attractive woman. Which was probably just as offensive to her as if I were to make a lewd remark.

    So yeah, “‘every man is a potentional stalker’ guilt syndrome,” but a little more grounded in reality and inspired by actual comments by live females (not internalization).

    …this audio is hilarious, probably even better than if I could actually see what was going on…

    …okay, it just became very much unfunny… and yet, sadly potentially real.

    I’ve shared in perhaps the thoughts of the first part of the film, but definitely (if I even have to say this), not the part when it gets all crazy.

  22. (“just as offensive”…in other words, it’s a no-win situation, no matter how hard you try to be a nice guy)

  23. I’m not a feminist in the same sense that many other posters on this blog are. But I have been hit on/asked out in public, and what bothers me most is the big-ego types who seem to think that just because I’m there, I want sex/a date.

    Example 1: One of the copy shops near NYU. The guy working there was friendly, so when i went to get my copies, we chatted. I was engaged and had no interest in picking him up, just kind of being sociable, the way you would with a bartender, nice store clerk, etc. One day he decided that it was time to ask me for a kiss and for my phone #. When I said “not interested” and “taken,” he got upset.

    Example 2: Guys who go overboard with the conversation in bars. I’m not a nightclubber. I’m a pubber. Pubs in the afternoon are places where you see people doing everything from reading a newspaper alone to being drunk and partying. When I’m with friends, I’m partying; but often, I prefer the beer-and-newspaper on the way home or when stressed. I am not there looking for sex or for guys to buy me drinks–oh, and don’t ask ‘what are you reading’ and push me into conversation. It’s obviously a newspaper and I don’t know you, so leave me alone.

    3) Construction workers–I’m not saying “excuse me” because I want your phone number. I’m saying “excuse me” because you’re in the way.

    4) I am sitting in Washington Sq Park in July in a tank top and shorts because I want a tan, not a date. Stop using your lunch break to sit down next to me, talk to me, tell me I’m beautiful, and refuse to leave even after I tell you I’m married. Oh and don’t ask me for a sexual tryst over the lunch hour because my hubby’s at work.

    Etc.

    I have little respect for people who ask out people they’ve barely even conversed with, just because they’re there. It’s weird, creepy, and desperate. At leaset when you meet someone at a singles event, you are there for the purpose of getting a date. On the street, in broad daylight, I expect to be able to get my copies, my coffee, a glass of beer with the Post, or some sun without guys assuming I’m out scoping.

  24. Random Guy makes a good point. I think some of these women are defining harassment as something that comes from “men they have no sexual interest in.” I think race ties into that. Many of these White women would not give any Black man, especially a working class Black man the time of day. Now if this was a White stock broker saying, “Hey baby you’re hot.” Would it be interpreted differently?

    I agree that harassment is wrong, but we need to think abut how we construct harassment. I think these men of color on the street are much less of a threat to the safety of these White women than say the White dude at the bar who buys them a drink and slips something into it, or what about that White guy who posed as a fireman and raped that woman in Manhattan–if he was one of these Black or Brown guys on the street I suspect she would have never let him in. I think we are often afraid of the wrong men………..

  25. Rachel–Funny. Usually I only get hit on by Indian guys, and my husband is Indian also, so my experience is rather limited. The copy shop guy…Indian. Construction worker–Guyanese Indian. Guy in park….well, you get the picture. My other harrassers have been Hispanic. Not sure what it is, but I attract non-White men more than White men.

    But even so…if any White guy asks me out under the circumstances I named, I will find him equally creepy and will not give him the time of day.

  26. Well, thanks but I think every woman gets to define harassment herself. You don’t agree with my definition? Too bad.

    I have to wonder how much racial/sexual tension comes from men’s resentment that those bitches have stuff that they’re not entitled to as women. Manhood is supposed to be domination over women, and if women are more successful than these guys, then they’re not men, are they? How do they re-assert their manhood? By making women feel like shit. The greater the economic gulf, the more resentment. If you’re a successful woman, guys who aren’t successful will see that as an injustice against them.

  27. You know, Rachel, my period of worst sexual harassment was junior high school. I got big tits when I was 11, and that’s when it started. I didn’t even know what “blow me” meant the first time some guy on the street demanded that I do it. I just knew that something about my new body was making men treat me in ways that made me really uncomfortable, and I came to the obvious conclusion that my body was shameful and dirty. And I’m really not talking about things that could be construed as welcome, nice comments. I didn’t spend a lot of time in bars as a pre-teenager, so I’m not talking about someone buying me a drink. I’m not talking about “nice outfit,” or “you look pretty.” I’m talking about clearly inappropriate comments (“nice tits!”) or sexual propositions.

    It seems to me like what you’re doing is, frankly, blaming the victim. And as for randomguy, I think anyone who’s spent time on feminist blogs has learned to recognize this one:

    it’s a no-win situation, no matter how hard you try to be a nice guy

  28. I said in the Pandagon thread that, tempting though it may be, judging the appropriateness of each and every entry to “Hollaback” is not likely to be productive, particularly when the website is only a week old or so.

    Marian, the instances in examples 1 and 2 are not instances of men being harassing. They are, at worst, instances of men not backing off appropriately when their advance is rejected. Attempting to flirt in a public place, such as a bar or a local neighborhood cafe/copy place in which people congregate is not inappropriate, though people should know better than to push the point.

    I have little respect for people who ask out people they’ve barely even conversed with, just because they’re there. It’s weird, creepy, and desperate.

    Fair enough, but for many people, living in the city is an incredibly lonely and disconnected anonymous experience, so their few free moments are spent looking for someone new to speak with. By contrast, having grown up in the suburbs, I am used to a situation where few people ever introduced themselves without being solicited because first, everyone moved to the suburbs to get away from that sort of thing and to have space to themselves, and second, the fact that the neighborhood was so much smaller ensured that any instances of genuine harassment (or even awkwardness) did not have the protection of anonymity.

  29. I have lived in urban shitholes and small town shitholes, and it’s all the same. Even if I had a cameraphone, which I don’t, who has time to stop and take a picture of every idiot? I just yell something derisive and walk away. ‘ell, I don’t even waste my zings.

  30. I’ve walked down the street with many attractive women and I’ve never heard anything that could qualify as harassment (I ignore looks (even lingering looks) because I know that women don’t like you getting into fights for that kind of thing). Now, granted I’m a big guy and men may have decided saying something might not be worth get the shit kicked out of them. BUT what constitutes harasment? I really want to know.

    Well, Eric, you are a guy, and we are talking about women here — it’s almost as though if we dare to go out alone and enjoy ourselves without a man present, then we must be punished for that.

    What kind of guy goes up to a woman and her 15 year old daughter and addresses the daughter with “Nice *ss” or “Baby, you are hot” or some similar crap? (and we are not talking teenage guys here. We are talking men MY age). And then there was the “I’d like to turn you upside down and lick you like a lolllipop” comment. Guys older than me blow her kisses in traffic and once tried to follow her home (she drove to the police station instead).

    The teenagers say worse things (which I am not going to repeat) but my daughter tells me that the older guys are worse because they really ought to know better…and her response has become a shocked, wide-eyed look and “Oh, you are old enough to be my dad! Do you treat your own daughters this way?”

    Apparently she can hold her own with the young guys — she can go from polite to enraged in 4 seconds and even though she is only 5 feet tall and 100 pounds, she is intimidating when she is angry. But I hate it that she has to get angry for men or boys to leave her alone. What happened to politeness?

    And that’s just the ones who only say stuff. There are a lot of men who attempt to touch or fondle. It’s gotten a lot worse since I was young (and that was when workplace and school harassment was common).

    It’s not harassment to make a small talk style comment. It’s not harassment to make a compliment in passing, giving the other person room to acknowledge or ignore it. It’s not harassment to smile briefly at someone. These are all ways to let another person, male or female, know that you are interested in communicating, and all are brief enough that if the person ISN’T interested, it isn’t bothersome. Any of these, however, could be construed as harassing if the body language is threatening, or a big production is made of it so that it can’t be ignored if the person isn’t interested in responding.

    I have a little Irish in my background and one of my ancestors must have kissed the Blarney stone because I talk to people all the time, at work, in the grocery store, at the park…it’s pretty evident when people don’t want to talk. And I would be harassing that person if I continued. This is a pretty friendly place, and people enjoy communicating here, but I have lived in other states where it was less acceptable; and I can tell you that the cues are hard to miss when someone doesn’t want to talk to you (don’t make eye contact, edge away, reply in a monosyllable, cross their arms) — and it’s harassment to continue.

    It is harassment if the other person stands too close (and this can be a cultural thing, as some groups require more space to feel comfortable — if so, and IF the too close person then backs away and apologizes when it’s evident the other person is uncomfortable — then it’s not harassment).

    It is harassment if highly personal comments are made, whether sexual or appearance-related, unless you are a boyfriend or (in the case of appearance) a relative or good friend. This is the “You’re so pretty” comment…it’s the kind of thing strangers say to a 3-year-old, not an adult. “Nice hair”, on the other hand, could be the cut, or the style; kind of like clothes or shoes, it’s something you could say to either sex, and something the person probably put some effort into. If you can’t say it to a strange man, you probably shouldn’t say it to a strange woman.

    It is harassment if one person insists on being the center of attention when the other person is not interested.

    It is harassment if the person attempts to walk away and the harasser continues to follow.

    Of course there are other types. But you said you wanted examples.

  31. That’s city living for you. Some people find it worth the grief; fuck if I know why.

    David, I’ve been in New York for more than a decade. I’ve lived in two boroughs and a burb, and had offices in different parts of Manhattan. I’ve spent time in every neighborhood of Manhattan from Washington Heights down to the Battery. It never happens to me. Not that I have never been cruised — it used to happen all the time in Chelsea and the Village. But it was never offensive, nasty, or intrusive after I said I wasn’t interested.

    The phenomenon Jill is talking about is something women experience and men do not, in the same city.

    Did you miss that, or were you just looking to derail this thread into some sort of criticism of cities?

  32. I think so far no one has mentioned the physical aspect of street harrassment – not in the sense of someone slapping your ass, but in the sense of the would-be harrasser’s distance from his target. I live in Chicago, where even in my frumpy work clothes downtown I frequently get hollered at, and for me there is a huge difference between someone in a stopped car yelling “Hey Pretty Lady” versus someone walking the opposite direction getting really close as they pass you to whisper the same thing. Innocuous phrase, yeah, but if you’re saying it 3 inches from my face it makes me feel disgusting.

    And the reason I feel that way, really, is that I feel like if I were a Good Feminist, I’d have an adequate strategy to make it not happen or to say something back that would make him stop doing it. Instead I usually resort to facial expressions that convey just how utterly repulsed I am.

    The goal for harrassers isn’t to try to pick up women, it’s to feel powerful over them. That’s the difference, and there is room for misunderstanding, but to blame women for living in the city in the first place is shameful.

  33. Honestly, I really don’t see random guy/street harassment as that much of a problem. Maybe it’s because I’ve never lived in a large city, but I’ve never experienced it at all. Or maybe I just have a much narrower definition of harrassment than most women. If some guy catcalls at me on the street, I’m likely to ignore it, but it doesn’t make me uncomfortable or anything. Ditto if I’m out someplace and a guy tries to talk to me/ask me out/ whatever. So long as it doesn’t continue after I’ve indicated my disinterest, it doesn’t bother me. Most of the times that I would consider myself as being harrassed were from guys that I sort of knew and had been around/spoken to more than just passing on the street.

    And I seem to have the same experience as Marian in that I seem to be more interesting to non-white/non-European men. My husband is Sri-Lankan and I usually get hit on by Indian, Asian, Middle Eastern guys than anyone else. In fact, the only times I can recall ever really feeling harrassed or uncomfortable were when a guy from Qatar in one of my classes (I was the prof) started following me around campus and would always be near exits to buildings/my car/etc. whenever I was leaving and when a Chinese grad student (I was a grad student at the time) would not accept that I did not want to go out with him, even though my husband worked in the same building and had been introduced to him a few weeks before.

  34. There are a lot of complexities I think involved here (race/class being one that’s tough to address), but some of the basic stuff just isn’t getting through to some people, I think. (Or at least stuff that I think is basic.)

    Contantine says:

    Marian, the instances in examples 1 and 2 are not instances of men being harassing. They are, at worst, instances of men not backing off appropriately when their advance is rejected.

    Actually, I’d say that not backing off appropriately when the advance is rejected is one pretty good working definition of one type of harassment.

    And that’s the thing–a lot of men are ‘walking on eggshells’ because it’s tough to know where to draw the line in some instances, but it’s a far better thing for those of us men who care about this stuff to walk on eggshells and to err on the side of caution than to go around thinking that we know what harassment is, know what the best definition is, hands down, etc. I think men shoudl speak up here, in part because we can do a lot to change this sort of situation in the world, but I think it’s just plain silly to imagine that we should be the ones setting the definition of harassment for women who are coming on these blogs saying what they think harassment is.

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  36. Marian, the instances in examples 1 and 2 are not instances of men being harassing. They are, at worst, instances of men not backing off appropriately when their advance is rejected.

    Actually, I’d say that not backing off appropriately when the advance is rejected is one pretty good working definition of one type of harassment.

    Yeah….maybe I wasn’t clear there. In #1, I said no, and I think “I’m engaged” is a pretty clear “no.” He knew that when he asked to kiss me, and gave me the “Well, I’m here and your man is in Pennsylvania, so he’ll never know” spiel. It may not be the definition of harrassment…I just find it annoying dealing with guys who have such poor boundaries that they ask out married/engaged women.

    In #2, I just find it irritating. Maybe it’s not sexual harrassment, it’s just that my husband can go to a bar and drink a beer without women coming into his personal space and assuming he’s there to meet them. I don’t generally slide in next to someone whose nose is in a newspaper and try to be their best buddy. I stick to the people who reciprocate the interaction. I’ve had guys come up to me not just in bars, but when I sit on the floor reading in Barnes/Noble, or in Starbucks. Even if they are trying to meet people and are lonely, it is very pushy to do it with someone who is not communicating back.

    Maybe this is more a case of rudeness and strange boundaries more than harrassment, but it does happen more when women are alone in bars or cafes than when men are.

  37. I think cities probably are worse than other places, because there’s a level of anonymity and because people spend a lot more time out on the street. But I’ve had incredibly rude things said to me in other anonymous, outdoor settings. I can recall one incident at an amusement park and another at the beach near my grandmother’s house. Both of these were in non-urban places in the Bible Belt.

  38. Some interesting stuff here.

    Re: the race thing. I think that’s definitely an important aspect to explore. I’m gonna think about that one, and come back to it later.

    About the “nice guys” who can’t tell the difference between complimentary behavior and harassment, I’m not sure what to tell you. Complimenting someone makes them feel good; it shows that you’re interested in them. Harassing someone isn’t about them; the purpose isn’t to make them feel good, it’s to exert power over them. When it happens on the street, the purpose is to make the person being harassed feel as if she has less of a right to move through that public space than you do.

    Harassment is by definition, action without cessation with intent to worry, upset, or bother. One “you’re very pretty” is not harassment. Two, however, could be. I will gladly stretch the definition to include a sort of collective repition, such as cat-calls that by collective repition have the same effect even once. If I follow you down the street to reiterate that “you’re pretty” thought, obviously harassment. If I follow you down the street because we’re heading to the same building, not harassment. If I hang outside your building in order to tell you that each morning, harassment. If I sit by you on a packed bus each morning because we live or work together, not harassment. If I make a cat-call, harassment. If the word “baby” comes out of my mouth, probably harassment. If the word “lovely” is used as noun, pronoun, or appositive title, harassment. If the word “lovely” is used as an adjective, not harassment (e.g. “That’s a lovely dress.”)

    Well, no. It’s not about repetition or word choice; believe me, people are capable of turning very complimentary-sounding phrases into creepy or threatening statements. I’m also coming at this from the perspective of someone who lives in New York City, where people just don’t talk to strangers unless it’s necessary. People here aren’t cold, necessarily, but they’re busy and hurried and don’t make small talk on public transportation or on the street. I grew up in Seattle and can say that, while I’ve been spoken to on the street and in stores by men dozens of times — sometimes in a complimentary way– it was never, in my interpretation, harassment. The culture there is generally friendlier, and so being spoken to by a stranger wasn’t as unnerving; in NY, when men yell at you on the street, they know they’re breaking social custom in a jarring way. Coming up to a woman on the subway, leering at her and saying, “Booooy are you prettttttyyyy…” may sound innocuous in quotes on a website, but can be quite intimidating in person. Ditto for creepy man in the park staring at your tits and saying, “That’s a lovely dress.”

    I’ve gotten street harassment of all kinds: The type that started out as a seemingly nice old man who said, “That’s a very pretty skirt,” to which I just smiled, and as I continued on my way heard him yell, “DAMN that’s a nice skirt. DAMN! Keep walkin like that in that skirt, girl, DAMN that’s nice!” The near-daily, “Why don’t you smile, honey? Smile, sweetheart!” and the flat-out aggressive: “Damn you are one ug-ly honkey bitch!” Here’s what’s interesting: No matter what they said (nice skirt, smile, or you’re ugly) it felt the same way, and seemed to be delivered with the same intent. So it’s not necessarily about what’s said; it’s about how it’s said, its purpose, and its context.

  40. “Now if this was a White stock broker saying, “Hey baby you’re hot.” Would it be interpreted differently?”

    I don’t know about anyone else, but in the scenario above, I’d respond with a string of obscenities and a fantasy about slamming the guy’s head into the sidewalk until his brains leaked out.

    My experience, incidently, is that while blacks are, perhaps, a bit more likely to harass, they’re much more likely to take f!ck off for an answer and go away, apparently no hard feelings. It’s the white guys who insist that you can’t possibly mean to turn down their generous offer of unsolicited, anonymous sex.

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  42. I’ve gotten street harassment of all kinds: The type that started out as a seemingly nice old man who said, “That’s a very pretty skirt,” to which I just smiled, and as I continued on my way heard him yell, “DAMN that’s a nice skirt. DAMN! Keep walkin like that in that skirt, girl, DAMN that’s nice!” The near-daily, “Why don’t you smile, honey? Smile, sweetheart!” and the flat-out aggressive: “Damn you are one ug-ly honkey bitch!” Here’s what’s interesting: No matter what they said (nice skirt, smile, or you’re ugly) it felt the same way, and seemed to be delivered with the same intent. So it’s not necessarily about what’s said; it’s about how it’s said, its purpose, and its context.

    Mm-hm. See “civility” on Amptoons for more context.

    Moreover, approaching a strange woman in public with an unsolicited, pretty clearly sexual comment on her body is generally inappropriate and disrespectful, whether coarse or not.

  43. I’m 55 years old, and over the decades since men first noticed me as a woman, I’ve found the preponderence of inappropriate sexually harassing remarks and actions addressed to me have come from white males. When I was in college in Pittsburgh, PA, a couple of older white men followed me in their car as I walked to Planned Parenthood for a check up. Frightening, not in the least flattering – and when I told them to leve me alone, you should have heard the incredible filth that poured out of their mouths…This happened in the early 70’s, more than 30 years ago, and is still vivid in my mind.
    That’s harrassment, not expression of appreciation.

  45. I saw almost all men of color, and then combine that with the term Holla Back. I’m down with women standing up to street harassment, but that site makes it look like the problem is brown and black men harassing innocent White chicks…..Did you notice that?

    Black men speaking out to attractive women is a cultural difference. Just watch an attractive black woman walk down the street and all of the black men who comment out loud and sometimes turn around and watch her walking away. As a white girl from a rural background, I was freaked out by all of the black men who approached me when I first moved to Chicago. Where I’m from, a man whistling, making sexual comments or aggressively fliiting with a nstrange woman on the street may be a signal that alcohol is involved, and a sexual assault may be next. Some of the scariest experiences I have had with this kind of thing involved strange white men who were drunk.

    A few working class black men on the street have complemented me in a way that made it clear that they intended it just as that, not as a form of harrassment. “You are very beautiful,” “I love your chapeau” (said flirtatiously), or “Hello, Miss Total Sophistication.” It can be really tiresome, but after a while you start to develop coping mechanisms for these would-be Lotharios. I stopped one persistent Romeo dead in his tracks by telling him that he needed to take better care of his teeth (they looked like hell), and stop eating sugar, and by the way, are you taking vitamin supplements, because your skin would clear up if you did… He just slunk away.

    I do not extend cross-cultural understanding to the following, however: being spoken to obscenely or disrespectfully, being approached by *any* strange male after dark or in isolated areas, being followed or menaced.

    The aggressive or hostile sexual harrassment from black or Hispanic men toward white women is obviously about a lot more than arousal. It’s sometimes a way of expressing race and class resentment. Get back at the white man by degrading his “property.”

  46. “Now if this was a White stock broker saying, “Hey baby you’re hot.” Would it be interpreted differently?”

    I don’t know about anyone else, but in the scenario above, I’d respond with a string of obscenities and a fantasy about slamming the guy’s head into the sidewalk until his brains leaked out.

    Ha!

    Yes, I think a lot of times when someone who is a minority does something to piss us off, the common response is, “Well, if a white person did it, you’d be fine with it.” I’ve gotten that in the past with complaining about coworkers, who happened to be nonwhite, who were making my life hell.

    Well I’m not sure about other people’s racism, but in my case…an asshole is an asshole, regardless of race. I do not believe whitness/richness/maleness/whatever excuses jerkish behavior, and I don’t think that the way to “liberate” any group is to encourage such behavior.

  47. Sally, What did I say that you think is blaming the victim? I’m curious. I didn’t say any of this was OK. What I think is happening on this particular site is exactly what Logan mentioned above. She talks about how when she first moved to a city she was “freaked out” by all of the Black men who approached her. (BTW I really admire her honesty here.) I think many White women feel this way, so my point is this: Do White women feel more intimidated by Black men’s approach because of all of the stereotypes we are taught about “scary Black men.” This is why I think random guy is on to something. Why aren’t there many pictures of White men? Is it because we are more likely to welcome attention from them or are we more likely to excuse their bad behavior (or some combination of the two)?

    Amber made a good point about the question of how do I know the women submitting to the site are White women. I can’t point to one exact thing, but the site itself is constructed in a very White sort of way…..I would have to write several paragraphs to explain why I think this. But I am convinced is just as much about race and class as it is about gender. It is not only the pictures that make me feel this way, it is also the choice of language, “Holla Back” which was popularized by Black/Dominican Hip Hop artist Fabolous (his spelling not mine Lol!).

    I used the examples of White stock brokers and the fake firemen to point out that many times middle class White men are able to exploit middle class White women because we are not taught to be afraid of them. It’s only men of color and the working class or homeless white men that raise our immediate suspicion. Because of this race and class bias I think we are more likely to let our guard down around these men–these are the same men who are most likely to rape us in college at a frat party and abuse us when (or if) we marry them (Caveat-I’m not saying all White dudes. I’m just the ones who do this.). It is like the old lesson that those of us who are feminist teach when we talk about sexual assault prevention–it usually isn’t the men who are strangers that we need to be afraid of.

  48. I grew up in suburban, majority-white neighborhoods in Texas and has more recently lived in Brooklyn and DC. I did find it unsettling to move to the east coast and become a target for frequent street harassment. To a certain extent, it’s a numbers game: I came in close contact with a lot more people as a pedestrian taking public transit than I did as a girl driving a car down the freeway. More people = more assholes. I was intimidated by the men who harassed and catcalled me, but not because they were of color (which was often but not always the case), but more because I was not used to having people I didn’t know speak to me on the street. This might be a white thing, or a middle class thing, or a geographic thing, but the issue was my lack of familiarity/comfort with this type of interaction, not the race of the person.

    Maybe Logan is right that speaking to strange women is more common in the black community, but in my experience the most common denominator among harassers was class, not race; I cannot recall a single incident of a non-intoxicated middle-class-or-above man catcalling me, but blue collar and poor men of all races have. Race may correlate with class, but it’s a mistake to conflate the two.

    Re: the race of the submitters: even if you’re right, Rachel S, about the site’s designers, anyone can email in a post, so it’s a potentially wide-open forum, although white women might be more likely to have both a cameraphone and a computer with an internet connection (see aforementioned correlation between race and class).

  49. this reminds of the “smile!” discussion that happened on Feministe, Pandagon, Hugo’s blog, etc a while back. it’s such a slippery topic because it is so subjective.

    i echo jeffliveshere’s comment concerning men’s potential contribution to this discussion – it’s obviously going to take both sides talking about it to ever make any progress, but a little deference is appreciated.

    i can’t tell you how many male friends that i have who have a hard time fully believing the level of crap women have to deal with on the street. it’s not really their fault, as they most likely have never seen street harassment in action. but it is real, and it affects us.

    do i think “holla back” is the best way to handle it? no. am i glad we’re having the conversation, however many times it has to happen? yes.

  50. Actually, I’d say that not backing off appropriately when the advance is rejected is one pretty good working definition of one type of harassment.

    You’re right; what I was trying to get at was that the “sin” involved was not the flirtatious approach itself but rather the lack of manners when turned down– and when one is malicious about it, that is harassment. Also, making an advance on someone who is married is inappropriate in any case, and while it might not necessarily qualify as harrassment, it is certainly an indicator of bad character.

  51. Rachel,
    I think you are right on that my reaction to black men was in part because of racism. White people in much of the U.S. (especially rural areas) have very little contact with African Americans, so media plays a big part in forming our impression of black men. Athletes, millionaire comedians, rappers, and lots of scary anonymous young black men committing crime, lots and lots of crime. We didn’t get to know black men on a mundane and positive level–as a neighbor, fellow church member, or as our child’s teacher.

    However I do want to emphasize that there IS a cultural difference in what is considered acceptable sexual behavior between men and women, and it varies by race and class.
    I grew up where nearly everyone was either of German or Scottish descent, Protestant, and norms of behavior, including those between men and women, are straight out of Prairie Home Companion. Thus my comments about terrifying experiences with white men who were drunk.

    What we’re missing here is that there are different kinds of harrassment being portrayed in the photos, and different motivations. That is not intended to diminish the real need women have to feel safe or respected when they leave their homes, but it’s important for white middle class women to know (for their own peace of mind) that a working class black man who tells them they are beautiful is not going to automatically attack them.

    All of these types of harrassers share a presumption that women can’t/won’t kick their asses. For some men, getting physically hurt is the only thing they respect. Ask any man of slight frame or stature about how often they are harassed or physically assaulted.

    (I believe the first is the most common type)

    Harrasser Taxonomy

    1. Horny combined with clueless (You are 25 years old, beautiful, educated, and I am 50, smell bad, and live in a box. We are the perfect couple!)

    2. Horny combined with anger (I want to fuck you but I know you don’t want me, so fuck you, bitch)

    3. Pure misogynist. (I’m not horny, I just fucking hate all of you bitches, starting with my whore of a mother)

    4. Self-appointed Judge of All Womanhood (You are beautiful and sexy. You need to let your hair grow longer)

    5. Closeted/Insecure (Gotta show my boys I’m not a faggot)

  52. i can’t tell you how many male friends that i have who have a hard time fully believing the level of crap women have to deal with on the street. it’s not really their fault, as they most likely have never seen street harassment in action. but it is real, and it affects us.

    I have just read through this whole thread – it has grown remarkably since I read about it last night. All I can say is that I am really apalled. I really have never seen this kind of thing and the occasional story I’ve heard from women about some guy saying something to them, I’ve always assumed that it was an isolated incident with some freak.

    Obviously this kind of thing doesn’t happen to every woman every day but the number of stories here definitely shows that this happens more often than I, and suspect most guys, would ever imagine. And the degree of the harassment is more than I expected. I’m not a woman and wouldn’t consider myself a feminist even in the limited way that some guys consider themselves feminists. But what I have read in this thread, especially Flyinfur’s examples including her teenage daughter really pisses me off.

    I don’t know what can possibly be done about this problem. Only an asshole would act in this way and assholes are usually impossible to reform. I know that women don’t really want some “knight protector” but I know that if I ever personally witness this shit, there will be Hell to pay.

    Anyway, like I said, this has pissed me off. I’m going to go read Lauren’s fart post and try to calm down.

  53. “I think men shoudl speak up here, in part because we can do a lot to change this sort of situation in the world, but I think it’s just plain silly to imagine that we should be the ones setting the definition of harassment for women who are coming on these blogs saying what they think harassment is.”

    I agree completely. I think the discussion is enriched by having respectful and (preferably) pro-feminist men involved in discussions like this. I also completely agree that it’s “plain silly” (although I’d probably say “ignorant and borderline-offensive”) for men to come into a discussion like this and assume the right to define what is and is not harassment.

    I’ll take a shot at distilling the conversation here, but there’s too much here to respond to individual comments….

    Ok. What is or isn’t harassment? There is a school of thought (and I think it was brought up on here) that every woman gets to define harassment for herself, and I think there’s a certain amount of validity to it. I’d rather not get into that, because my theory on that position is rusty. but I _do_ think there a few guidelines for defining harassment that have sort of arisen by consensus here. 1: persistent unwanted attention is harassment. 2: Comments of a sexual nature are harassment. 3: Otherwise harmless or complimentary comments can be harassment if delivered in a creepy way (and what constitutes “creepy” pretty well has to be defined by the woman). 4: Harassment need not be verbal, and need not involve physical contact — unwarranted breech of personal space may constitute harassment. 5: Harassment need not be persistent — single comments can, without a doubt, be harassment. 6: “Hanging out the passenger side of his best friend’s ride, trying to holler at [a woman]” is most certainly harassment, unless they’re asking for directions. (First person to identify the quote get to share in my shame of knowing it.) 7: Randomly approaching and chatting up a woman, though it may seem “weird, creepy, and desperate” may or may not be harassment. Other criteria are necessary to decide which. 8: Unsolicited comments may or may not be harassment, though they’re probably not an expecially good idea. Other criteria are necessary to decide which.

    I don’t mean that as an exhaustive list, just a few things that we probably more or less agree on. Feel free to adapt it or expand upon it. And although there are some women inclined to take well-intentioned inocuous comments as harassment, I think ultimately I’m not comfortable with any model of determining who gets to decide what constitutes harassment that doesn’t place the right squarely on the women themselves. I think accepting a few false positives is far preferable to minimizing women’s authority on their experience of harassment.

    About culture: I use the word culture because both race and class play into it. I certainly don’t wish to pretend that I know how race and culture are precisely related, or attribute a cause-and-effect relationship, or anything. All that I will say is that race is a factor, and class is a factor, and there is overlap. I think there’s some legitimacy to the idea that some men do it as a way to get back at women that they feel are out of their reach (how this related to middle/upper class white men, and how their harassment works, will become a bit clearer later). Whether those are working-class white men who feel they don’t have access to middle- or upper-class white (or otherwise) women, or men of colour (often working class) who feel they don’t have access to white women. There are also cultural issues that are more relevant with respect to race. There seems to be more acceptance of the ” “You are very beautiful,” “I love your chapeau” (said flirtatiously), or “Hello, Miss Total Sophistication.”” style…. I’m not sure how to characterize them. Flirtation? Harassment? I’ll just call them “comments” and let you call it. Smooveness ( and “Hello, Miss Total Sophistication” is pure Smoove) isn’t especially cultivated in white men, rich or poor. Poor white men typically exhibit good old-fashioned “lack of class”. I’ll elaborate on well-off white men soon. So, regardless of whether middle-class white women want to hear it, comments like that seem to me more common in black culture. Does that make it categorically Not Harassment? I certainly don’t mean to make that case. I just wish to say that it’s less clear-cut. Also, Middle Eastern cultures tend to draw the boundaries of personal space a lot closer than the white man does. I’ve been in situations, talking to Middle Eastern men, when they felt closer to me than I was accustomed to. It’s very understandable that a woman may feel threatened in that situation, especially if she wasn’t aware of the cultural difference. Again, I don’t mean to say that it’s Not Harassment, just to say that the issue is very complex.

    About middle- or upper-class white men (which I’ll call “rich” in shorthand). As I said before, poor white men, or men of colour of all classes may feel that they don’t have access to white and/or middle-class women. Although it’s my suspicion that well-off men of colour (at least those that have done so through participation in the white world) are not street harassers very often, and when they are, it would be on the “rich man” model. Now, rich men tend to be raised with fairly strong rules of social propriety. I find it hard to imagine, for example, that a stock broker would whistle are women when out with his son. This emphasis on propriety creats sort of a faux-gentlemanly exterior, at least in the men who buy into the culture. That said, rich white men are raised (not necessarily intentionally) to have massive entitlement complexes. They feel that they have access to _all_ women (and tend to write the ones not interested as “bitches” or “Lesbians”), but that doesn’t come out (without alcohol) as often once they pass the larval stage (the Frat Boy period). I’m not exactly sure where I’m going with this, except to say that A: because of the emphasis on social propriety in middle-calss upbringing, street-harassment isn’t as common, and B: because of the sense of being entitled to women, their harassment takes on a different character than poor men/men of colour. Add booze, and all bets are off. Now, I suspect (though I by no means have anything to back this up) that well-off men of colour are (street) harassers less often because they get the emphasis on social propriety (necessary even more for men of colour than white men to advance in money-jobs), but they don’t feel that they have access to all women. Hm. That’s mostly speculation. Does any of that ring true with anyone?

    I think I had more to say, but I’ll leave it at that.

  54. A bum shitting in the alley or a junkie passed out on the street isn’t a direct attack on anyone’s personal dignity.

    You are correct, sir. It’s an indirect attack on people’s personal dignity.

    Omg, they live in the city so they should expect that kind of abuse

    Yes, actually they should.

    Feminists, especially youngsters like Jill & Lauren, need to understand that they can’t mold and form the world to be exactly to their liking. I think subscribing to Liberalism causes this disorder. What are you going to do? Try to have a law passed to make it illegal for a man to whistle at a woman on the street? It wouldn’t surprise me if some clueless liberal had already tried it. Attractive women will always turn heads, they’ll always get more attention than ugly women. That’s the way it is. If you can’t deal with it, wear a full Burqa and see how many men approach you. There. Problem solved.

    Damn, I’m good. I should do this professionally.

  55. Feminists, especially youngsters like Jill & Lauren, need to understand that they can’t mold and form the world to be exactly to their liking. I think subscribing to Liberalism causes this disorder. What are you going to do? Try to have a law passed to make it illegal for a man to whistle at a woman on the street? It wouldn’t surprise me if some clueless liberal had already tried it. Attractive women will always turn heads, they’ll always get more attention than ugly women. That’s the way it is. If you can’t deal with it, wear a full Burqa and see how many men approach you. There. Problem solved.

    “What are you going to do? Are you gonna do this thing that neither you nor any other feminist has ever proposed? That would be pretty fucking stupid! You people are idiots!”

    What Lauren and Jill are going to do is complain about it until it stops being socially acceptable to say nasty things to strange women on the street.

    There’s a difference between compliments and harassment, not that anyone here expects you to understand. Of course men will continue to notice beautiful women, just as interested women notice beautiful men. They’ll just be shamed into leaving fewer verbal turds in those women’s paths.

  56. They’ll just be shamed into leaving fewer verbal turds in those women’s paths.

    Congrat piny, that line is just poetic.

  58. Well put, piny. I noticed on my blog that a lot of people were far more interested in shaming women for complaining about street harassment than they were in shaming street harassers. One does wonder why.

  59. Feminists, especially youngsters like Jill & Lauren, need to understand that they can’t mold and form the world to be exactly to their liking. I think subscribing to Liberalism causes this disorder. What are you going to do? Try to have a law passed to make it illegal for a man to whistle at a woman on the street? It wouldn’t surprise me if some clueless liberal had already tried it. Attractive women will always turn heads, they’ll always get more attention than ugly women. That’s the way it is. If you can’t deal with it, wear a full Burqa and see how many men approach you. There. Problem solved.

    Damn, I’m good. I should do this professionally.

    I guess the message here is that women should just shut up and expect harrassment and somehow forget about it? Hey, now that’s constructive! Oh, and let’s not forget the equating harrassment with attention! Yes sir, there’s a modern, forward-thinking concept! And you even manage to get in stupid, illogical slams at liberals. Oh, you’re a professional all right; but good taste prevents me from naming the profession you’re in.

  60. I agree with most of what logan and knife ghost said. I agree with Logan both racism and subcultural differences are at play.

    One little exception would be the idea that middle class have the respectability decorum. I would break it down and make it situational–at a frat house no. But where I really agree with knife ghost is in the idea that, “A: because of the emphasis on social propriety in middle-calss upbringing, street-harassment isn’t as common, and B: because of the sense of being entitled to women, their harassment takes on a different character than poor men/men of colour. Add booze, and all bets are off.”

    I would also rephrase the statement about access to White women–and just note that men of color don’t necessarily want access to White women. They just want to be treated with respect by Whites, and when you are not treated with respect it is much easier to go after a White women than it is a White man.

  61. As a black woman who has experienced this type of thing from black men of all classes–

    They like to yell, and I mean YELL comments about your body. They will yell with false surprise at how round, big, firm, nice, beautiful, whatever part of your body is. “Damn! Look at that big ol ass!” Then they slap hands with their buddies while you walk by.

    The ones who might be middle/upper class will say these same things, but quietly. If you act hard of hearing, like I do, they will repeat till you acknowledge them. If you refuse to acknowledge their “compliment,” you get called a dyke or bitch or stuck up. One particular insult I got was, “should be happy I’m speaking to your black ass. That’s why we go to white women.”

    I think black men are very aggressive, but for the most part there is a huge gulf between black men and women. They think we should feel grateful for their attention. Especially the lower/working class ones.

  62. Yeah, that’s a good clarification.

    “I would break it down and make it situational–at a frat house no.”

    That’s absolutely true, too, and I think I mentioned it in passing. It would be worth expanding on, but I’m intellectually drained from writing essays all week.

    (It might have sometihng to do with the harassment taking place within clearly marked-off “party” situations where normal social propriety is suspended.)

  63. Wow. This is just boggling my mind. I live in Dublin (the one in Ireland), and this shit doesn’t happen here. It’s easy to walk around without getting harrassed, even at night when everyone’s plastered. Now, it may well be the case that I attract it less than some other women, and of course it does happen from time to time, but… basically, this is just not an issue in my life or the lives of other young women I know. I just wanted to post this because I’m seeing a bit of a whiff of “this is inevitable” floating through the comments thread. Clearly it’s not. Looking is inevitable, of course it is. People do that here too, human nature and all that. Harrassment, not so much. I’ve no idea what the cultural factors are that make this so variable from country to country, (and from cultural subgroup to subgroup) but it would be interesting to know.

  64. what a great idea for a blog, and i think empowering. as a man i’ve been holla’d at maybe 2-3 times. for me it was a novelty and kind of flattering, but with daily lascivious looks and disgusting propositions i think i would lose all respect for the other sex. the single underlying focus of some men’s minds must be revolting, huh?

  65. You know, if never occurred to me what being holla’d at might be like if it only ever happened 2-3 times and the people doing it weren’t remotely able to beat me up. I guess under those circumstances, I wouldn’t have minded it all that much. One of the really creepy things about it, for me, was the fact that it started before I reached the age of consent, by men old enough to be my father.

    One particular insult I got was, “should be happy I’m speaking to your black ass. That’s why we go to white women.”

    Because we white women always treat black men so well. And for anyone who believes that, I’ve got a great deal on a bridge….

  66. You know, I don’t think that I’ve generally felt physically threatened by street harassment. Once or twice, but not usually. What I have felt, especially when it first started, was deeply ashamed. I felt that I must be doing something to make guys think it was ok to treat me like that. And because it started pretty much immediately after I hit puberty, I came to the conclusion that my new, curvy body was projecting those dirty vibes and that there was something filthy and shameful about my body. I actually think that my childhood experience with sexual harassment had a pretty profound effect on how I felt about my body. When I said in the Oprah thread that I was harmed by getting big breasts very early, that’s mostly what I was talking about.

    Sally, What did I say that you think is blaming the victim? I’m curious.

    I know that you offered the standard disclaimer (I’m not excusing harassment, but…), but you framed the problem primarily as being about how “we” construct harassment. The problem, as you see it, is in the heads of the victims, not the behavior of the perpetrators. And that “we” struck me as deeply problematic, too. The “we” you’re talking about is middle-class white women, right? There are exlusions built into that implied “we”: not everyone who reads and/or posts here is a middle-class white women.

  67. I admit that this boggles my mind too, although it does sound extremely aggravating and upsetting. It hasn’t ever happened to me that I can remember. I suspect that somehow, in some way I do not give off female vibes.

  68. I understand, Sally. When it first started happening to me I felt shame too. Especially when some other woman walking with me wasn’t being harassed. I would wonder whether I was walking like a slut or wearing something slutty, or just looking like a doggone prostitute or something. There had to be some reason they were doing this, right? Then once at a family gathering/party I was wearing a long dress–sweeping the floor–and an older man said to me: “that dress makes me want to know what’s under there.” Talk about shame. Sometimes they whisper it in my ear and that has to be the worse. Then they go back and act normal to everyone else.

  70. Sally you said,
    “I know that you offered the standard disclaimer (I’m not excusing harassment, but…), but you framed the problem primarily as being about how “we” construct harassment. The problem, as you see it, is in the heads of the victims, not the behavior of the perpetrators. And that “we” struck me as deeply problematic, too. The “we” you’re talking about is middle-class white women, right? There are exlusions built into that implied “we”: not everyone who reads and/or posts here is a middle-class white women.”

    I did not ever say street harassment is OK. What bothered me was the fact that almost every single picture I found on that site (emphasis that site) that was clearly visible was of a man of color. My argument was that the site made it seem as if the problem was only men of color being harassers. There is a long history of White women and White men making claims about Black men sexually harassing and raping White women. Ask the relatives of 11 year old Emmitt Till who was murdered for whistling at a White woman. Moreover, alleged rapes were frequently cited as reasons for lynching. Many of these claims were indeed false (not all of them but many of them). Any discussion of such a site with all pictures of men of color takes place with that history in the background.

    I used the term “we” because I am a middle class White woman (thus the pronoun they is inaccurate) and that is who I was addressing. Moreover, I think middle class White women do have need to start to see both our Whiteness and our gender as important influences in our lives. Racism is real and White women benefit from White privilege, which includes the privilege to act like race is not important. Moreover, this site (Feministe) is geared primarily toward White women (the little blonde girl with the gun is at least one indication of that–there is no Angela Davis with an afro at the top), and it is maintained by two White women. I see nothing wrong with that, but we White women (those who read the blog and those who don’t) need to be just as conscious racism of as we are of sexism. I am not going to apologize for directing my comments to White women because in my own experiences most women and men of color know racism is a problem. (Now if I find that most of the women who maintain that site are women of color then I will have to eat my words. LOL!)

    Do men of all races engage is harassment? Yes they do. Should we be equally critical of all harassment from men. Yes.

    So here is my question…Do you believe harassment comes from men of all races? If so, aren’t you bothered that no White men are clearly visible on that site? Do you really think that is fair? I’m not blaiming the victims–I’m blaming the people who constructed the site (who probably don’t even realize the site is constrcted in that way). That’s all…..

  71. Tanooki Joe: Some people don’t like to be reminded of the logical result of the structure of North American society. This may not apply to Marksman, but I’ve met a lot of people who resent homeless people and drug users for, as far as I can tell, not being homeless and addicted somewhere else so the nice people can pretend they don’t exist. Which, maybe, is an “indirct attack on [“nice”] peoples’ personal dignity”. I don’t wish to put words in Marksman’s mouth, but that’s an arguement I’ve heard from other people.

  72. the structure of North American society

    Those fucking Inuit make me sick.

    I’ve met a lot of people who resent homeless people and drug users for, as far as I can tell, not being homeless and addicted somewhere else so the nice people can pretend they don’t exist

    I think we mostly resent homeless people and drug users for not keeping their shit together – so we have to walk through it.

  74. Tanooki Joe: Some people don’t like to be reminded of the logical result of the structure of North American society. This may not apply to Marksman, but I’ve met a lot of people who resent homeless people and drug users for, as far as I can tell, not being homeless and addicted somewhere else so the nice people can pretend they don’t exist. Which, maybe, is an “indirct attack on [”nice”] peoples’ personal dignity”. I don’t wish to put words in Marksman’s mouth, but that’s an arguement I’ve heard from other people.

    I assume as much, but I’d rather hear it from the horse’s mouth.

  77. you rock girls!!!!

    the other day, i saw these two black dudes ogle at two white college girls (i give the racial description as a sucker for details, nothing else)….one of them yells: “i KNOW your coochie is cold baby! i know it’s f@#!$! cold” (she was wearing a short skirt)….i mean, it was on broadway….in daylight, with about 50 people around….we all looked in disbelief….i looked in disbelief….but as so many other times…the perfect comment always seems to be miles away…i guess that i should just have told him to shut the f$#@! up…..keep it coming….!

  78. Yeah, sorry, but I think whatever privileges my white skin gets me are negated by the fact I’m female. You ignored a really big part of the racism question there, RAchel S, so let me put it back into your equation: White men made false accusations of rape. White men prosecuted black men for raping white women—but they didn’t prosecute anybody for raping black women, least of all themselves. When white men deal with their racism and privilege, then I will. Not before then and not until.

    Furhermore, white women got shit on by both white and black men during the soutern rape trials, and the rhetoric on both sides sounded pretty similiar, even while both sides kept women silenced. How come no women were allowed on southern rape juries till the late sixties or early seventies? Defense attorneys certainly raised the issue when it was the racial composition of juries. Could it be that they feared women would take a very differnt view of the standard ‘the bitch lied’ defense? than anohter guy, black or white?

    Southern rape trials were eseentially two groups of guys arguing about who got to rape white women, yet you want to take women to task for it. Good job, Rachel. It’s not like white guys don’t have enough people on their side.

  80. I don’t think Rachel is trying to take sides. I think she makes a good point — first, that sometimes, what we interpret as harassment differs according to who’s doing the harassing. She also points out that oppression isn’t simply about white men at the top and everyone else down at the bottom. There are heirarchies and sub-heirarchies, and it just isn’t the case that every man is more priviliged than every woman. White skin does make a difference, and white middle-class women have a whole lot more privilege than many other people. It’s valuable to recognize that.

    Of course, I still support the site, because I don’t believe that race negates responsibility for harassment. I think we also have to look at the fact that a white male who harasses a middle or upper-class white female is more likely to be someone whose picture she couldn’t put up on the site — her boss, a client, or someone who has greater power over her in her daily life. And the harassment is less likely to be the on-the-street type.

  81. Sorry, but that’s not my point. I’m sick of women having to think about everybody but themselves. I’m not gong to think about Emmit Till when some black guy harasses me. That has nothing to do with it. How come nobody ever brings up Eldredge Cleaver and LeRoy Jones? How come we’re left with a legacy of women lying about black men but white men are so invisible they’re not being called on pulling the strings? How come black men get to act out against white women and nobody wants to discuss that kind of privilege? How come we regard racism as serious but sexism as a result of oversensitivity?

    The belief that white women lie about black men has lurks underneath any interracial incident that involves men and women, but no one wants to confront it. Instead they’ll talk about white women’s privilege. Sorry. Not buying it.

  82. How come no women were allowed on southern rape juries till the late sixties or early seventies?

    Women were routinely kept off all juries until at least the ’60s. On that score, there was nothing special about the South or about rape trials. And it’s just silly to deny that Southern white women (and Northern white women) have been implicated in racism.

    Moreover, this site (Feministe) is geared primarily toward White women (the little blonde girl with the gun is at least one indication of that–there is no Angela Davis with an afro at the top), and it is maintained by two White women.

    I think this is a reallly dangerous assumption, and it contains it’s own built-in racism. There’s an implicit assumption that the internet is white and that you can assume people on it are white until given evidence otherwise. I recall several comments that assumed that Jesse on Pandagon was white, for instance. I doubt that this site is consciously “geared towards” white women, and you don’t know whether the women who read it are middle-class and/or white. And I think feminists have to be really careful about how we deploy that “we.” It’s important to acknowledge that the movement has often marginalized women of color and working-class women, but it’s pretty easy to slide from acknowledging that fact into furthering the same marginalization that you intend to critique.

    I don’t know why the identifiable men on the site are all people of color. Maybe the women posting are white, and white men don’t harass white women because they’ve got a racialized virgin/whore dynamic in their heads. White women are the good type who deserve respect, and women of color are fair game. Maybe white men don’t harass white women because when they look at white women, they see their social equals, and they’re afraid they’ll bump into them at a wedding or business meeting. Maybe most of the posters are women of color, and they’re invisible to white men and therefore not harassed by them. Maybe Jill’s suggestion is right, and given the racialized class hierarchies in New York, white men are more likely to have secretaries or nannies they can harass. I think there are a lot of possible explanations that don’t come down to blaming the victims and assuming that anonymous posters on the internet are white.

  83. “Southern rape trials were eseentially two groups of guys arguing about who got to rape white women,”

    I’m not how defending yourself against a false accusation of rape constitutes arguing that you get to rape them, but that’s beside the point.

    Anyways. There are times when people gang based on colour lines, and times when they gang up based on gender lines. It’s ridiculous to say, as a blanket statement, that white women are below men of colour on the great social heirarchy for being women, ot that men of colour are below white women on the great social heirarchy for being non-white. Neither is an accurate statement, and neither is a useful assumption upon which to base analysis. There are any number of complex ways in which white women hold privilege over men of colour, and the same for men of colour over white women. Being a woman isn’t a “get out of privilege free” card, as Lynsey succinctly put it.

    “When white men deal with their racism and privilege, then I will. Not before then and not until.”

    How many white men have to deal with their racism and privilege before you’ll think about it? All of them? 50%+1? 10%? Would you accept it if a black man said “When white men own up to their sexism and privilege, then I will.”? There are white men now who own up to both their white privilege and their male privilege. Not enough, certainly, but progressively more. How does being a woman trump your whiteness? Does being a man trump a black man’s blackness?

    I think it’s reasonable to say that al white people have the responsibility to aknowledge their privilege just as all men have the same responsbility.

    And, just cause I love the article: http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

  84. Sorry,dude, but I just want to see white men owning up about everytihng. And if you don’t think raping white women is a right that lower-class men feel entitled to, you haven’t read much serious feminist theory. Guys who’ve expereinced racism have no problem regarding women as property and may in face resent women who insist that they themselves are human beings. After reading about trial after trial where the victim got bashed as a lying bitch I have to ask, exactly what do I owe any man who says the same things a white defendant does, but he expects his skin color and mine make him bullet proof.

    The idea that white women lie about black men and that white women have some sort of hysterical reaction to black men is left over from the Deep South and it’s fairly racist on its own. Oh, yeah,and while we’re at it, white guys don’t harass white women on the street unless the men are blue collar. White guys just do it to them in the office where it’s more difficult to take a picture.

    WAnt to see what street harassment is like minus the racial component? Walk by a construction site, then answer a really damned simple question: If I walk by a bunch of white construction workers and they harass me and I walk by a bunch of black construction workers and they harass me, why in fuck do I have some duty to the latter group, huh? If anything,they owe me because they ought to know better. But some guys would rather back any old guy rather than any woman out there.

  85. Just got back to the wired world, and I see some more interesting dialogue here. It’s gotten to be such a broad discussion that I’ll avoid trying to respond on everything that I missed, but a couple quickies:

    1) Thank you for the more informative and professional/mature comments, they give a guy like me (who, yes, is new to the world of feminist web logs) plenty to think about.

    2a) Chauvinist pigs and assholes of the male variety in general do not frequent feminist fora or blogs.

    2b) In short, I believe (as commentors on Pandagon – I haven’t bothered to check other sites than that though) that the probability of ruining or seriously damaging a well-meaning non-asshole’s life with this activity is much higher than the probability of making a significant change in or impression on the assholes who deserve it. I’ve seen it (the former, never the latter) happen before, and it doesn’t take much, like this scenario from Pandagon which has happened in similar fora to coworkers of mine in the past: “Sally gets caught cheating on her algebra test by Mr. Smith. Two days later, Mr. Smith is up on the website for harassing ‘Amy.'” (great comment by the way, 11th down on the Pandagon post about hollaback). While we may disagree on what these probabilities are, even which outweighs the other, I think (and hope) we can all agree that if or when it happens, ruining an innocent person’s life (including potential loss of wife, kids, job, friends, sanity, etc.) is a truly awful injustice.

    3) Harassment is wrong, always.

    4) It’s not up to men to define harassment for woman. I think I may have been unclear about that in my earlier post, sorry. I personally think that it isn’t entirely up to any individual, at least, not when there are such high stakes as with hollaback, but in any case, I can agree that it isn’t up to me or men.

    5) Harassment is subjective, okay. That said, understanding that this is the case (whether you think it’s entirely, partly, or not at all the recipient woman’s prerogative) and that in the unobvious cases (e.g., where the law wouldn’t necessarily find it to be harassment, which I gave some deference to in my earlier post), the victim or recipient’s perception may not match the perpetrator or source’s intention, is vitally important to maintaining a reasonable dialogue and social sanity in our daily lives.

    6) Jill-

    So it’s not necessarily about what’s said; it’s about how it’s said, its purpose, and its context.

    You bring up good points, but as noted above, how it’s said is subjective and the context is subjective, which is why the purpose may not matter because perception of intent may not match reality (being a subjective perception based on other subjective perceptions based on many confounding factors). Honestly, I’ve intended nothing but to brighten someone’s day* and been grossly misinterpretted as a creep. I was not staring at breasts or putting in weird emphases either, and I do not bother women who I don’t at least work or live with (or in college, studied with) for some substantial amount of time, or have some previous non-imagined personal connection to. Fortunately, those mistakes (whether mine or hers) never resulted in me losing a family or a job, but overzealous use of hollaback could change that for other well-meaning guys (who haven’t been nearly scared away from coming within 100 yards of women entirely). So while I agree with you on a lot of your points, they don’t really apply to the kind of situation that’s getting me all in a fuss, as far as I can tell.

    7) I do believe that guys should stand up to their fellows if they act like jerks, but I don’t believe I should be held responsible for the actions of some jerk a thousand miles away who I’ve never met, just because I have a penis.

    Street harassment is bad, but there are too many ways that this sort of low-bar forum can go terribly wrong, and there’s a lot at stake (including the reputation of feminism in general and how the masses perceive female activists).

    *I should note that in my limited experience with feminist logging, I hear a lot about unrealistic expectations and outright absurd examples put in media like “womens’ magazines” (oddly enough, often run or edited by women, for women). Hence, I thought I was doing a good thing when I decided one day that I should make it a point to compliment those who find ways of rendering their beauty in unique ways that fall outside the realm of cookie-cutter fake blondes in short skirts and tiny tops. For example, making a brief complimentory note of a particularly creative design in someone’s long, flowing dress. Rewarding the extra effort, if you will, and the fact that they chose not to be mindless mass media suckers. I guess I was wrong, because apparently according to some (not all) of the posters, by even risking the slightest possibility that my good intentions (or “dickwad fantasies”) be misinterpretted, I’m

    asking for it

    [asking for being publicly slandered in front of friends, family, and coworkers, just not to my face]. So, I apologize, I’ll be much more reluctant to ‘ask for it’ in the future.

  86. “Sorry,dude, but I just want to see white men owning up about everytihng.”

    So do I. Absolutely I do. But I’m not going to sit around and wait for them to do so before stepping up myself. I’m a white man myself, so I suppose to some extent I _am_ them, but I’m by no means the sort of white man with power and influence and all those fun things. I don’t feel that any just is being done to anyone of I were to sit around and wait for them to step up before facing my white and male privilege.

    “If I walk by a bunch of white construction workers and they harass me and I walk by a bunch of black construction workers and they harass me, why in fuck do I have some duty to the latter group, huh?”

    You have absolutely no duty to them in the context of harassment. None. I don’t think anyone has made that case. And I’ll defer to you on the Southern rape trials, because you’re clearly more informed on it than I am. In the context of rape and harassment, white men and men of colour tend to line up on gender lines. they tend to close ranks on the Boys Club principle. But there are any number of ways in which you, as (I’m guessing from context) a white woman, hold privilege that men of colour don’t have. That’s not to say they don’t also have other privileges you don’t, but denying your own privilege doesn’t no more justice to anyone than it would if men of colour said “I won’t own up to my privilege as a man until white women own up to theirs as a white person”. And that’s certainly not to say that your privilege or his outweighs the other. I can fully understand your frustration about this (or at least as well as a relatively comfortable young white man can, I guess), but your gender/sex doesn’t give you a “get out of white privilege free” card.

  87. Don’t try and compare me with white men. I’ve gone shopping with black female friends and seen how the shopgirls followed them. Compare me to white guys? Fuck that shit. Compare me to black guys, too? Fuck that shit as well. I’m blue collar. Eveyr guy out there thinks I owe his ass a blow job and a thank you note.

    What it comes down to is when you press a white guy he’d much rather side with a black guy than a white woman. And when you press a black guy, he’d go for a white man, too, rather than a black woman.

  88. I wish this HollaBack website had been around when I travelled for work and was bothered so many times in the elevator and hotel bars. I needed a card that read “I’m here to eat a quick fast meal, have a beer, and watch whatever is on the bar TV. I’m not lonely or interested – please go away.”

  90. Many years ago, I fought back in a way that really worked, and was especially surprised when I learned, years later, that it was the same way Lily Tomlin had fought back:

    When I was yelled at on the street, I stopped, went right up to the man, and said:

    “I’m so sorry; I feel so embarrassed”

    “Huh?”

    “I mean, we’ve obviously met before; you know me, and I feel so bad that I don’t remember you.”

    “We’ve never met!”

    “You sure?”

    “Yeah.”

    (Leaning into his face) “Then what the hell are doing yelling at me on the street like that?”

    He turned white and walked away.

    I thought, having gotten older, that I had heard the last of this sort of thing, but last year, when I was walking down fraternity row near a university, college boys yelled at me on the street. I just gave them a “what, are you nuts?” look and walked on.

    I live in a small town, so there isn’t a lot of that sort of thing, but it is really bad in cities. And it never changes, just like all forms of sexual abuse. It still happens because women put up with it, men put up with it, and there are still women who have been programmed to think it is “flattering” or “cute.” The really scary reason it still goes on, though, has to do with how children are raised.

  91. ginmar: ” I’ve gone shopping with black female friends and seen how the shopgirls followed them.”

    Do they follow you when you’re alone? This is what I’m talking about, nothing more. Store employees follow black women more than white women. I wonder on what basis they’re making that discrimination…. That a specific way in which you, as a white person, enjoy privilege that women of colour, not being white, don’t. This isn’t matter of who takes wides with whom, it’s a matter of the privilege that you enjoy. You’ve given me an example of one.

  92. And in this context, talking about white female privilege is yet another attempt to blame the victim. Sorry, but it comes to men doing something shitty and women of unknown race, to assume that the women are somehow racist—-well, what is that?

    Frankly, I find the whole itnerjection of white privilege in here to be just about obscene.

    Oh, yeah, Robert, you feel happy now? Anything to change the subject.

  94. “And in this context, talking about white female privilege is yet another attempt to blame the victim.”

    I’ve made it very clear that I’m talking about white privilege in contexts other than street harassement (or harasment generally), and granted very clearly that in this context, male privilege that men of colour hold trumps the white privilege white women hold. I’m not sure how that constitutes blaming the victim.

    Look, I can see we’re getting nowhere, and I’m content to drop it.

  96. KnifeGhost, Ginmar –
    I’m really late but I’ve been following the discussion about the Southern rape trials and gender/race privilege – Susan Brownmiller in “Against Our Will” actually wrote extensively about this. And she said that the myth of the evil lying white accuser exists in more liberal circles just like the myth of the evil crazed black rapist exists in more conservative ones. (And, because I’ve gotten yelled at for it before, I’m not saying that all liberals and conservatives believe that, I’m using the terms loosely. Also, the book was written in the 1970s.)

  98. Ginmar’s hostility to me has reached the stage where my actual participation in a discussion isn’t necessary. If the discussion goes in a direction she doesn’t approve of, I derailed it; if people want to talk about things she doesn’t want to talk about, I made them do it; if there are facts that contradict her monochrome ideological view of the world, I trolled them.

    It’s convenient, because it means my campaign to eradicate feminism, punish women for sex, and restore the original blood-and-iron patriarchy now runs itself, and I can devote more time to computer games.

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