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Equal-Opportunity Crappy Dating Advice

Jill

It seems like every feminist blogger has written, at some point, about the crappy dating advice that comes by way of Cosmo and Glamour and whatever other “women’s” publication helps us out by claiming that you too can attract every man you want if you just follow these 10 simple steps. There are a million reasons to be irritated by such advice — it assumes men all think the same way, it assumes all women are only interested in men, it assumes men can basically be tricked into liking a woman if she tosses her head the right way, and it generally encourages women to behave deferentially and to lie about how they really feel. Not good. But via Wonkette, now those “nice guys” who get NewsMax in their email boxes get to deal with the same shit we do. Only with way more unnecessary capitalization, and over-use of the phrase, “Don’t be a WUSSIE!”. Full text after the jump.

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MISTAKE #1: Being
Too Much Of A “Nice Guy”
Have you ever noticed that the really attractive women never seem to be attracted “nice” guys?
Of course you have.
Just like me, I’m sure you’ve had attractive female friends that always seemed to date “jerks”… but for some reason they were never romantically interested in YOU.
What’s going on here?
It’s actually very simple…
Women don’t base their choices of men on how “nice” a guy is. They choose the men they do because they feel a powerful GUT LEVEL ATTRACTION for them.
And guess what?
Being nice doesn’t make a woman FEEL that powerful ATTRACTION.
And being NICE doesn’t make a woman CHOOSE you.
I realize that this doesn’t make a lot of logical sense, and it’s hard to ACCEPT… but GET OVER IT.

Until you accept this FACT and begin to act on it, you’ll NEVER have the success with women that you want.
Click Here Now To Learn More Secrets About Women

MISTAKE #2: Trying To
”Convince Her To Like You”
What do most guys do when they meet a woman that they REALLY like… but she’s just notinterested?
Right! They try to “convince” the woman to feel differently.
Well, I have news for you… YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE HOW A WOMAN “FEELS” WHEN IT COMES TO ATTRACTION!
Never, ever, EVER.
You cannot CONVINCE a woman to feel differently about you with “logic and reasoning”.
Think about it.
If a woman doesn’t “feel it” for you, how in the world do you expect to change that FEELING by being “reasonable” with her?
But we all do it.
When a woman just isn’t interested, we beg, plead, chase, and do our best to change her mind.
Bad idea. One that will never work.

MISTAKE #3: Looking To Her
For Approval
In our desire to please women (which we mistakenly think will make them like us), us guys are always doing things to get a woman’s “approval”.
Another HORRIBLE idea.
Women are NEVER attracted to the types of men who kiss up to them… EVER.
Don’t get me wrong here.
You don’t have to treat women BADLY for them to like you.
But if you think that treating a woman well means “always getting her approval”, think again.
You will never succeed by looking for approval. Women actually get ANNOYED at men who seek their approval.
Doubt me? Just ask any attractive woman if Wussy guys who chase her around and want her approval annoy her…

MISTAKE #4: Trying To “Buy” Her Affection With Food And Gifts
How many times have you taken a woman out to a nice dinner, bought her gifts and flowers, and had her REJECT you for someone who didn’t treat her even HALF as well as you did?
If you’re like me, then you’ve had it happen a LOT.
Well guess what?
It’s only NATURAL when this happens…
That’s right, I said NATURAL.
When you do these things, you send a clear message:
“I don’t think you’ll like me for who I am, so I’m going to try to buy your attention and affection”. Your good intentions usually come across to women as over-compensation for insecurity, and weak attempts at manipulation. That’s right, I said that women see this as MANIPULATION.

MISTAKE #5: Sharing
”How You Feel” Too Early In
The Relationship With Her
Another huge and unfortunate mistake that most men make with women is sharing how they “feel” too early on.
Attractive women are rare.
And they get a LOT of attention from men.
Most men don’t realize this, but attractive women are being approached in one way or another ALL THE TIME.
An attractive woman is often approached several times a DAY by men who are interested. This translate into dozens of times per week, and often HUNDREDS of times per month.
And guess what?
Attractive women have usually dated a LOT of men.
That’s right. They have EXPERIENCE.
They know what to expect.
And one thing that turns an attractive women off and sends her running away faster than just about anything is a guy who starts saying “You know, I really, REALLY like you” after one or two dates.
This signals to the woman that you’re just like all the other guys who fall for her too fast… and can’t control themselves.
Don’t do it. Lean back. Relax.
There’s a much better way…

MISTAKE #6: Not “Getting” How Attraction Works For Women
Women are VERY different from men when it comes to ATTRACTION.
You need to accept this fact, and deal with it.
When a man sees a beautiful woman, he INSTANTLY feels an attraction.
But does the same apply for women?
Do women feel attraction to men based mostly on looks? Or is something else going on?
Well, after studying this topic for over five full years now, I can tell you that women usually have their “attraction mechanisms” triggered by things OTHER than looks.
Have you ever noticed that you see a lot more average and unattractive men with beautiful women than the other way around?
Think about it.
Women are more attracted to certain qualities in men… and they’re attracted to the way a man makes them FEEL than they are to looks alone.
If you know how to use your body language and communication correctly, you can make women feel the same kind of powerful sexual attraction to you that YOU feel when you see an attractive woman.
But it’s not an accident. You have to LEARN how to do this.
And ANY guy can learn how…

MISTAKE #7: Thinking That It
Takes Money And Looks
One of the most common mistakes that guys make is giving up before they’ve even gotten started… because they think that attractive women are only interested in men who have looks and money… or guys who are a certain height… or guys who are a certain age.
And sure, there are some women who are only interested in these things.
But MOST women are far more interested in a man’s personality than his wallet or his looks.
There are personality traits that attract women like a magnet…
And if you learn what they are and how to use them, YOU can be one of these guys.
YOU DO NOT have to “settle” for a woman just because you aren’t rich, tall, or handsome.
Let me say this again: If you know how to use your body language and communication correctly, you can make women feel the same kind of powerful attraction to you that YOU feel when you see a beautiful woman.

MISTAKE #8: Giving Away
All Of Your Power To Women
Earlier I mentioned that it’s a mistake to look to a woman for approval.
Well, another similar tactic that a lot of guys use is GIVING AWAY THEIR POWER to women.
Said differently, guys try to get women to like them by doing whatever the woman wants.
Another bad idea…
Women are NEVER attracted to men that they can walk all over… Women aren’t attracted to Wussies!

MISTAKE #9: Not Knowing
EXACTLY What To Do In Each
Type Of Situation With Women
Now I’m going to blow your mind…
A woman ALWAYS knows what you’re thinking.
Women are approximately TEN TIMES better than men at reading body language. That’s ten TIMES.
I know, it might be hard to believe. But for example, if you’re out on a date with a woman, and you want to kiss her, she knows it.
And if you don’t know exactly what to do and exactly HOW to kiss her, and you just sit there looking at her and getting nervous, she won’t help!
And this goes for ALL aspects of women and dating…
Approaching a woman, getting her number, asking her out, kissing her…
If you don’t know what to do in each situation, you will probably screw it up… and LOSE EVERYTHING.
And you KNOW it.
It is VITALLY important that you know EXACTLY how to go from one step to the next with a woman… from the first meeting, all the way to a relationship.

MISTAKE #10: Not Getting HELP
This is the biggest mistake of all.
This is the mistake that keeps most men from EVER having the kind of success with women that they truly want.
I know, guys don’t like to make themselves look weak or helpless. We don’t like to ask for help.
Hey, I’ve been there myself.
Let me tell you a little about me and how I figured out how to be successful with women…
About five years ago I became fed up with the fact that I didn’t know how to approach, meet, and get dates with women that I was attracted to.
It frustrated the hell out of me.
One night I was out with a friend, and I saw a woman I wanted to ask out, but I just couldn’t get up the nerve to do it. I can still remember that night… right on the spot I made the decision to do whatever it took to learn how to be successful with women and dating.
Well, after a lot of hard work and trying all kinds of crazy things, I finally figured it all out.
I can now approach just about any woman and get her number almost instantly. I’ve dated models, I’ve dated actresses, and I’ve dated nice, normal, regular girls as well.
It has been a very rewarding experience. I no longer feel that sick, insecure feeling… like I don’t know how to meet women… and I might wind up alone.
I know that anytime, anywhere, I can go out and meet attractive women.
I’ve written a book on the topic, and I’ve done seminars on both coasts of the United States… and taught tens of thousands of men all around the world.

74 thoughts on Equal-Opportunity Crappy Dating Advice

  1. A woman ALWAYS knows what you’re thinking.
    Women are approximately TEN TIMES better than men at reading body language. That’s ten TIMES.

    The science! It’s blowing my mind!!!

    Attractive women are rare.

    Methinks you have a painfully restricted standard of attractiveness.

    Man, this guy is like some uber-“nice guy”.

  2. YOU DO NOT have to “settle” for a woman just because you aren’t rich, tall, or handsome.

    Why do I hear Michael Myers doing an old Sat. night live routine, “Just look at these babes!”?

  3. A woman ALWAYS knows what you’re thinking.

    And she knows you heeded the advice of this stupid email, too. We’re omniscient like that.

  4. This guy will also tell you how to make THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS A WEEK … WORKING from HOME. You can BE YOUR OWN BOSS…

    And that advice will work out just as well.

  5. Dear god, am I glad I’m married and can just sit back and laugh/be annoyed at these stupid articles, and not worry that anyone I know takes them seriously!

    My husband chased me, albeit subtly, for a year and a half before I said ‘yes’ to a date with him. And then I had laughed at the suggestion first. He was (and IS) a nice guy, who didn’t know exactly what to do at all times (although he PLANNED OUT our first kiss — very romantic, terribly cute, and with a sound track, yet!), said he loved me WAAAAY earlier than I had anything remotely similar to say back to him, and still has no idea what attracted me to him. (Hint: my not being able to think circles around him was a big part of it.)

    The “most dangerous mistakes” men make dealing with women? Taking ANY of this kind of advice seriously and trying to “score with women” as opposed to being themselves and just interact with us. And trying to get down her blouse on the first day he meets her, but hey — that actually works with some gals….

  6. And trying to get down her blouse on the first day he meets her

    Do women still wear blouses? I imagine the women that wear blouses probably don’t put out on the first date.

    As far as this guy’s rules, I see where he’s going. I’m not supposed to buy her affection, look for approval, convince her to like me, or be nice to her. What kind of courtship is that? Reminds me of elementary school. I had friends ask the girl to “go with me”. Then I assiduously avoided her throughout our “relationship” (this was more out of fear of actually talking to a girl than a planned strategy).

    Actually, this guy’s rules remind me of my college friend. He was quite successful. He would feign disinterest and would play hard to get. Since he was good looking and mysterious (hey, he had long hair), and was nice he had a good number of women chase him. Never really had a successful relationship though.

  8. Not saying that blouses aren’t cool. Just don’t hear that much anymore. Just teasing though. I still say “slacks” and that seems to be kind of outdated.

    But still seeing images of Little House on the Prairie, or, my grandmother. Hard to imagine any guys going up any blouses.

  9. The style is instantly recognisable. It’s David DeAngelo! I’ve been a regular and joyous subscriber to his (free) newsletters for years. You can find more, including deeply ludicrous case histories about men who like girls of the Irish persuasion because they usually have freckles and are honest, at doubleyourdating.com.

    [cringes, having revealed far, far too much about own leisure reading habits]

  10. “You cannot CONVINCE a woman to feel differently about you with “logic and reasoning”.”

    I have to say that rings pretty true. Any stories to the contrary? Cause if the “logic and reasoning” method _does_ work, I’m totally changing my approach…..

  11. KnifeGhost,

    Logic and reasoning works for me! Beats illogic and unreasonable behavior any day of the week.

  12. I have to say that rings pretty true. Any stories to the contrary? Cause if the “logic and reasoning” method _does_ work, I’m totally changing my approach…..

    A lot of it rings true. It is just taken to an extreme and reformatted to sell a product. Most girls aren’t attracted to “girly” men with confidence problem. Big surprise!

  13. I have certainly seen examples of a man pursuing a woman for a long time and using logic and reasoning to catch her. Laurie tells a similar story above.

    I think a lot of women like a man as a friend because he is funny, caring and nice. But might not be attracted to him right away. Then, after failed relationships with “cool” guys who are dicks (e.g. the above guy’s approach) they might reconsider. I think most women grow out of the phase of dating the cool guy and then look for other qualities.

    I just went to my cousin’s wedding. He pursued her for 10 years. They were friends. She finally agreed to date him about 2 years ago.

  14. Ok I know this is OT but in college a very inexperienced male friends was perplexed by other people’s ability to just hook up at parties. My roommate and I walked him step by step through scenarios, what to say, etc. He finally hooked up with this girl and of course we asked for details. He said – just wasn’t that into her, her breasts were disappointing. We were stunned b/c this girl was at least a C and he said – well when I reached for them they just disappeared or retracted or something. We said – not possible, breasts aren’t pens. Finally we realized he didn’t understand real breasts will fall to the side of a woman’s chest when she lies down. We quit trying to help him – after graduation he finally accepted he was gay, realized his lack of attraction had nothing to do w/that girl’s body.

  15. I have certainly seen examples of a man pursuing a woman for a long time and using logic and reasoning to catch her. Laurie tells a similar story above.

    This goes back years since I’ve been with the same woman for 8 years now. My only success with women including the current one was once I decided, no matter what, a woman I was interrested in was going to be a lover or nothing. When you are married or in a long-term relationship you’ll become best of friends in addition to lovers but when you are first dating, be a man and that is it. For dating give it a couple of weeks and then moved on. Before that I tried and tried; and guess what I ended up with a lot of female friends. I don’t regret it since women make better friends than guys, but it certainly didn’t help me get a GF.

    I don’t discount that some men have had success by following a woman for years but most of the time it doesn’t work out.

  16. Jason, honey:
    A “blouse” is what they call those pretty little girly shirts. You know, the ones that actually fit a girl’s shape up there, and are lacy and stuff, and button on the girl side? Not “camisoles” which are pretty and silky and lacy, and are *properly* worn underneath a blouse too sheer to wear without one. At least if you’re a “good girl”.

    Sorry for sounding a little “dated”, but that’s because I’m quite possibly old enough to be your mother. AND from the Mid-West, where we still use those words. *BIG grin, ’cause I’m just teasing too* 😉

    Oddly enough, my DH (Darling Husband) was my friend for a solid year and a half before we started dating. Not that he didn’t WANT to be more at the time, just that he was patient enough to wait until I was unentangled with the guy who tried to get down my BLOUSE the first day I met him. (What can I say? I was a freshman geek girl who had rarely gotten any positive male interest before.) My DH was actually quite a good friend during that time, and that actually made it hard to consider dating him, because I didn’t want to screw up the friendship. But that beginning friendship is why we are such a solid couple. We just had to wait for the right combination of chemistry and mutual interests to find us.

    I think the moral of the story is: There is no ONE way to attract women; there are as many ways as there are women/men/relationships. Although I would add that being honest and not trying to be someone you aren’t are pretty much constants.

    P.S. I’m almost curious as to what the yahoo who wrote the above article DOES think is the way to win women. I’m thinking it would be too amusing for me to read while drinking anything carbonated. 😉

  17. But still seeing images of Little House on the Prairie, or, my grandmother. Hard to imagine any guys going up any blouses.

    Norbizness’s grandmother, though… whoa.

  19. Hee. I’m reading Jarhead right now, and it turns out that marines call their shirts blouses.

    I do have to say, at least some of those tips ring true. I certainly don’t want someone declaring his love on the second date.

  20. P.S. I’m almost curious as to what the yahoo who wrote the above article DOES think is the way to win women. I’m thinking it would be too amusing for me to read while drinking anything carbonated. 😉

    Apparently, we are attracted to men who are Cocky and Funny(TM). This involves making a lame joke while looking arrogant. David D’s idol is Tom Cruise, in Top Gun. Sadly, Cruise’s far more apposite role in Magnolia is never mentioned in this context.

    I am so sad that my “favourite” bit of Seduction Community weirdness has, damn it, disappeared. Man posted the following comment ()

    “Okay, let’s analyze this together… what do you think about this guy
    just from this photo? Here is what others have said:

    • He has a lot of confidence
    • He looks like some badboy or a really adventurous guy
    • Good looking (average)
    • He is drinking expensive cocktails, so he probably has some money…
    • Sex must be amazing with him
    • He is alpha, he doesn’t worry what others think.
    • He doesn’t look like some predictable guy…
    • Not so needy”

    Clicking the link got you a picture of a slightly balding man in chinos and shirt, wearing sunglasses, in a nightclub, in the dark, drinking a cocktail that may or may not have contained a miniature umbrella, sitting with his feet on the table, legs straight and spread as wide as possible, groin thrust skywards. It was the most marvellous disconnect between perception and reality that I have ever had the privilege to witness.

  22. If you read this and follow step by step the advice I give, I promise you will eventually probably wind up in a good, long-term relationship. I’ll even offer a 365-day money-back guarantee.

    And now, Robert’s easy step by step advice for getting a long-term significant other:

    Step 1: Be yourself. Do whatever makes you comfortable (short of beating the shit out of people or being a jackass). If the person you have eyes for doesn’t like who you are, and tries/wants to change fundamental things about you, chances are decent that any relationship you enter with that person will be pretty fucking miserable in the long term. Move on. Find someone whom you respect for who they are and who does the same for you. You’ll be a lot happier.

    Step 2: Have patience. You will find someone.

    That’s all there is. The rest is up to the individual person. I don’t really know what specifically works for him/her. I’m not much of a psychic.

  23. I should mention that the above advice is of course much easier said than done. I’m pretty bad at following it myownself.

  24. That’s all there is. The rest is up to the individual person. I don’t really know what specifically works for him/her. I’m not much of a psychic.

    Ha! You will never succeed in the Seduction Community! According to dating gurus, we women are SUCKERS for palm reading, tarot, and other psychic games!

  25. I think it’s funny that no one mentioned that this ad is all about attracting “attractive” women. Because part of the whole myth is that if you are a man it is perfectly acceptable to be shallow and seach for someone based on looks.

  26. I think it’s funny that no one mentioned that this ad is all about attracting “attractive” women.

    However, if you are an attractive woman there is an even money chance that your social skills have either atrophied or never developed in the first place because you have always been able to trade on your looks, so some of this crap just might work.

    I should mention, at the risk of getting labeled a shameless suck up (or worse), that the authors of this blog have managed to escape that trap 🙂

  27. “MISTAKE #2: Trying To Convince Her To Like You”.” I agree with the other posts about women being attainable if you keep pursuing. In my experience, and I’m somewhat annoyed by this but whatever, women can be convinced over time to be interested in and attracted to a guy. Not all the time but sometimes. Men are far less easy to “woo.”

    Am working right now on helping my guy friend slowly reel in my female friend since 2nd grade–he impressed her four years ago when she was dating someone else with his wit and the lovely wooden pepper grinder he sent her. (Long story.) Am thinking that in another year it’ll be off or they’ll be living together.

    I think also men have always been given incredibly crappy dating advice. Blind leading the blind. Let’s just all think about the pickup lines we’ve heard.

    Love the post about the guy who didn’t understand that breasts are governed by gravity.

    If there’s something approaching an even gender balance in the area, just do it the old-fashioned way. Find an interest/hobby/activity or three that involves the gender you’re interested in. Pursue that activity. Meet someone and date. Pretty much everyone I know, with the exception of one married couple who actually met through Match and another married couple who met through 8-Minute Dating, met through activities like dancing, Ultimate, friends in common in a pinch, and yes, work. (Shared misery brings people together…)

  28. You know, I was on hugo’s blog the other day reading one of the most brilliant posts about (let’s see if I can link correctly) men and women and relationships. And it struck me as a very relevant dynamic in the whole “what do women want, anyway?” dating advice genre that men get thrown at them. To paraphrase him badly, it’s about the way in which it’s easy for men to cede control and responsibility for relationships and behavior to the women that they date, until you’ve got the whole mother-son dynamic going on.

    And it strikes me that part of the problem is that many guys seem to have a block when in comes to envisioning what real equality in relationship would look like. So if you defer to everything she wants (the “pleasing her” stuff in this guy’s advice) and put her in the ‘mommy’ role, and she doesn’t like it, well then women must really be interested in men that take control and dominate. There’s no middle ground.

  29. Ha! You will never succeed in the Seduction Community! According to dating gurus, we women are SUCKERS for palm reading, tarot, and other psychic games!

    Dammit! So that’s why I can’t get laid…

  30. To paraphrase him badly, it’s about the way in which it’s easy for men to cede control and responsibility for relationships and behavior to the women that they date, until you’ve got the whole mother-son dynamic going on.

    It’s shockingly easy to fall into that pattern even with men you’re not dating. I used to share a secretary with a guy, and firm custom was to buy gifts for holidays and Secretary’s Day (which Maria accepted like a trouper, even though she was a Jehovah’s Witness). Somehow, gift selection and purchase fell to me and he just gave me money. It was startling to realize I had taken on a wife-like role in this aspect of our working relationship.

  31. I guess what I’ve learned in my not-really-vast dating experience is that most dating advice columns really try to make something general out of the specific. Sure, there’s general rules that work (be clean, listen to the person you’re talking to, etc.), but you can’t force something that’s not there. If the person you’re into isn’t into you back, you gotta suck it up and move on to the next prospect. That’s just life.

  32. Now, I DLed some of this dude’s books last night for research purposes, and…. Results are mixed. Ignoring the way stereotypical (and often stomach-turningly essentialist) Man/Woman bullshit, and ignoring the terrible sample jokes, and all that, he has a few things of moderate value to say.

    Essentially, his advice boils down to “be cool”. “Be cool” meaning both “don’t be nervous” and “be casual and easy-going”. He offers excercises for overcoming self-doubt and fear about talking to women, which is actually fairly legitimate and valuable, but also fairly standard. (Or it might seem standard to me, having taken a few second-year University psych classes…) He talks a lot about giving mixed-messages, which I didn’t entirely buy. For example, he talked about holding a girl’s hand, then letting go before she can and saying something like “not yet, it’s too early for hand-holding”. The idea being that you put the idea in her head that she’s after you, and that you’re keeping your distance. A tarted-up “hard to get” act. It’s my impression that the kind of girl I go for would think I was a crazy idiot for that.

    He also talks about his favourite approach, “cocky comedy”, which is a clunker of a phrase, and aesthetically fairly offensive. Essentially, the idea is that you tease them in a way that she can’t immediately tell if you’re serious or not. His examples, I think, cross the line into what a sane and secure woman would find insulting, but there may be a kernal of truth set in the bullshit he’s spun around it — minus-shit, it would read “be funny and play it cool”. Which rings true to some degree.

    As Rick DeMent said, a lot of this guy’s stuff is geared toward picking up “super-hot” women. A lot of the theory rides on the assumption that the women you’re trying to pick up are used to getting their way, used to guys picking them up all the time, so on, blah blah. It assumes the drama queen/princess type. And a lot of the technique rides on calling their bluff when they stir up drama, to BLOW THEIR MINDS!!! While I was reading it, I though “thanks Dave, but does that work on girls that have their shit together?” Of course, that’s irrelevant to Dave DeAngelo. Apparently men only care about looks, so go for the super-hot insecure chicks! WOOOO!

    Solveig: Your advice is solid, and I agree with it, but “meet someone and date” is a lot harder than it sounds. At least to guys who never learned how to make that step work.

    I’m one of those guys. That’s really the only advice I need. Meeting girls socially isn’t a problem, and I have lots of female friends. I love every one. But I’v never learned (and it is a skill you have to learn) how to make the date thing happen.

    David DeAngelo has a bit of value to say on that. His advice and excercises on getting over the fear of talking to women _might_ be of value and might work, and his advice on increasing your self-confidence might be ok, too. I think it’s not especially controversial to say women respond better to guys that are self-confident (DeAngelo says “cocky” or “a bit arrogant”, but I’ll stick with “self-confident”), and who seem in control of themselves (IE: not visibly nervous). DeAngelo goes way beyond that, though, into really laughable and insipid territory. I doubt most of his claims of success, and the difference between the advice of value and the blatant selling was extremely obvious.

    Essentially, it goes back to the Daves in my band said. David the bass player gets more play than a jukebox, and his advice came down to, essentially “I dunno, I just do it”. He does it by being interesting, confident, and casual. Dave the drummer (and he was hilsiour, cause he was a 28 year-old divorced guy, who liked to play up the crusty old man thing: “I’ll tell ya, son, wimmen are like this…”) said, essentially “just play it like you have something better to do. They’ll go nuts.”

    So, far as I can tell, the only real advice going around the traditional-wisdom male circles is “be cool”. Could work.

    Incidentally, the best thing I learned from David DeAngelo is that I have nothing to learn from David DeAngelo. My confidence has increased greatly after reading his bullshit, but for reasons totally unrelated to his advice.

  33. My advice for women is the same as I give for men, Jill. When you do your thinking below your belt, you’re going to get screwed and only that.

  35. Dammit! So that’s why I can’t get laid…

    yeah, chicks are into tarot and spiritual crystals and that crap.
    so you should play Magic: the Gathering. it has cards like tarot, and a bunch of quasi-mystic mumbo jumbo. they have like crystals and pentagrams and stuff.

    and someone loses every game, so you can demonstrate what an alpha male you are.

    yeah, those CCG guys get all the chicks.

    /worst advice about anything ever.

  36. Knifeghost,

    Thanks for the research. I agree that being confident is probably the best advice to take away from DeAngelo. Although I don’t think cocky confident is preferable to nice confident. The only type of woman you will attract with that are insecure women.

    I didn’t understand that he was only focusing on the super hot women. Those women are treated differently than average women. But not in the way most people assume (that they are constantly being hit on). In fact, I remember a “really hot” woman telling me that she felt people avoided her and were scared to talk to her. I can see that. I bet most guys would think that she is out of their league. So maybe that’s what DeAngelo discovered; he could hit on attractive women and sometimes be successful. After all, I think an average guy has a much better chance of hooking up with a super hot woman than vice versa.

  37. He offers excercises for overcoming self-doubt and fear

    I just saw that, Knife.

    “Pussy you want, hmm? When 900 years old you reach, get as many chicks you will not.”

  38. it assumes men can basically be tricked into liking a woman if she tosses her head the right way

    Nah, that is actu… dammit Bill.

  39. Jason: He presents it as being universally applicable, but all the examples he uses focus on the super-hot. Although he does advocate more or less a shotgun approach — he doesn’t claim you can pick any woman and make her love you, but that if you keep trying with different women, you’ll eventually strike gold. Which, frankly, would probably be as true even if he didn’t offer any other advice.

    Karpad: Blue balls lead to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering…..

  40. Karpad: Blue balls lead to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering…..

    which is precisely why I’ve advocated genocide against the Smurfs for nigh on two decades.

  41. If all else fails, tell her you dungeon & dragon stories and tell her how much you love computers. Chicks dig that shit!

  44. that is where you are wrong. twi’leks, smurfs, and the Blue Man Group are enemies of that which is good and natural.

    plus, when you kill a smurf, they turn into gold or something. and as a jew, I am pro-gold.

  45. The Blue Man Group is the enemy of the revolution, but for reasons totally unrelated to their blueness. Their corporate shillness, maybe, but not blueness.

    Too long have the Bolians struggled under the yoke of the Federation, ghettoized into the role of barber, cutting the scraps of remaining hair on pompous Starship captains.

    (I’ve sunk to a new level of public nerdry….)

  46. KnifeGhost, I do go for arrogant guys, but only because these are the guys that can keep up with my devastating arrogance.

    On this point I am absolutely not kidding.

  47. Oh Lauren, I am so with you on that. Cockiness is bad, but arrogance… I love it. Especially when it’s arrogance about being really fucking smart. As a friend of mine says, “Intelligence has always had a pornographic effect on me.” So true.

  50. I’ve never studied for anything in my life, and got double 800s back on the SATs. that’s an 800 for each of you.

    …giggity.

  51. — If all else fails, tell her your dungeon & dragon stories and tell her how much you love computers. Chicks dig that shit!

    Oddly enough, that may have worked on me… 😉

    Intelligent/arrogant can get me as long as the intelligence outweighs the arrogance. My DH is what I call “quietly arrogant” — doesn’t flaunt it much in public, but is just very, very confident in doing very well what he does well.

    What can I say? Intelligence turns me on. (Of course, it doesn’t hurt that he has dreamy eyes and lovely, wicked smile, too.)

  52. Oh Lauren, I am so with you on that. Cockiness is bad, but arrogance… I love it. Especially when it’s arrogance about being really fucking smart. As a friend of mine says, “Intelligence has always had a pornographic effect on me.” So true.

    I’ll respectfully part ways with you on this one, Jill, on the arrogant part. It’s long been my view that if one is intelligent, he or she doesn’t need to prove it outside of doing what she or he likes to do and does well.

  53. Now, first let’s make a distinction between being confident in one’s intelligence (I, for example, will get an A on the essay I’m supposed to be writing, which I didn’t start until about 3 hours ago) and being cocky or arrogant (EG: me just telling you that I’ll get an A on the essay).

    There are different things that can be called arrogance. Often, arrogance means (undeserved) smugness about one’s intelligence, sexual prowess, athletic abilities, musical talent, etc. Is arrogance sexy when the guy can’t deliver on it? And of the guys who can deliver on it, who are the sexiest? The modest, the self-deprecating, or the arrogant? I’ll leave out for now a discussion of whether the modesty or arrogance is sincere or ironic. I ask this seriously, I want to know what you think….

    And how ’bout a mix of self-deprecation and ironic arrogance? Would that work? *crosses fingers* Please please say it does… 😉

  54. And how ’bout a mix of self-deprecation and ironic arrogance? Would that work? *crosses fingers* Please please say it does… 😉

    Oh, it does. That’s probably a better description of what I meant above. The irony is key.

  55. Then I’m unstoppable. I’ll be like a sexy robot version of Gregory Peck sent from the future to charm up the ladies of McGill.

  56. “MISTAKE #1: Being Too Much Of A “Nice Guy””

    Oh, a lot of feminists have written about the “Nice Guy”. He whines too much, and he likes to play the victim card. “Nice Guys” are clingy and demanding, and they drain your soul and energy like a vampire. I have always avoided “Nice Guys” like the plague.

  57. “MISTAKE #5: Sharing ”How You Feel” Too Early In The Relationship With Her”

    Oh, boy, I knew a “Nice Guy” who went to one of those dating services because he was over 50, never married, and couldn’t get a woman interested in him. He whined about that all the time. On their first date, he went into gory detail about an operation he had, and he talked about his therapist. Sheesh, it’s no wonder she never called him back.

  58. And how ’bout a mix of self-deprecation and ironic arrogance? Would that work? *crosses fingers* Please please say it does… 😉

    Okay, I can buy that one.

    Oh, a lot of feminists have written about the “Nice Guy”. He whines too much, and he likes to play the victim card. “Nice Guys” are clingy and demanding, and they drain your soul and energy like a vampire. I have always avoided “Nice Guys” like the plague.

    I will confess that I was once afflicted with a mild form of this syndrome. My early to mid-20s would have been happier for me if I hadn’t had that problem. But hey, one lives and one learns, and I’m the wiser for it now.

  59. And how ’bout a mix of self-deprecation and ironic arrogance?

    Am I like everyone else? Well of course I am, I mean I did all the things the other kids did at a young age, I read things like Winnie the Poo.

    Of course I read it in the original Latin. 🙂

  60. Yikes. Arrogance.

    I worked at a big NYC law firm for a few years. Have had my fill of Masters of the Universe types.

  61. Big firm lawyers can be even worse than the Wall Street folks — even at the senior partner level, they still have to suck ass to clients, resulting in a lot of people with kiss up/kick down personalities.

  62. Have had my fill of Masters of the Universe types.

    like “By the Power of Grayskull, I have the poooower” Masters of the Universe?

    man, the 80s did weird things to kids…

  63. Let me just say that back in my “bad boy” days (about which I will resist the urge to reminisce), I was very aware that what (as we put it) “got me play” was what I liked to call my certainty. Yes, it was tinged with arrogance and cockiness, but I preferred to try and play it as rock-solid certainty that I knew what I wanted and, sooner or later, was going to have it. I don’t even know if I could pull it off any more, but that certainty — combined with word play — seemed to work fairly well.

  64. That more or less confirms DeAngelo’s advice. I think his teachings are effective at producing certain results. Whether those results are what you want, and whether you feel some kind of ethical compromise in follow it, is another thing.

    I’ve always been confident that I’d be god at relationships, even good at dating. Good at meeting, that’s what’s I’m in the process of figuring out.

    Now, I think there’s, if not quite a great need, at least a great value in somebody writing a pre-feminist “how to meet girls” kind of book. It CERTAINLY wouldn’t be a “how to pick up and score” book, but more like…. It would talk about the colonization of desire by advertising culture, how to treat a lady right in the feminist sense, a very strong no-means-no undercurrent. But ultimately it would serve a great need — helping otherwise clueless (and/or insecure or nervous) guys get over their nervousness and crazy attitudes and all that about women. Essentially, get all the god advice about meeting (not “picking up”) women that has ever been produced (I think it’ll be fairly meager) and instead of filling it out with essentialist EP bullshit and the assumption that it’s being used to get you sex, fill it with pro-woman pro-feminist pro-healthy-and-egalitarian-expressions-of-manhood material and the assumption that it’s being used to start you on the path to meaningful relationships, be they friendships, casual dating, life-parterships, serial monogamy, or one-nighters. There’s no reason why it couldn’t be adapted for gay or Lesbian or trans or poly or whatever audiences….

    Hmmm….. Anyone want to write that?

  68. We could team-write it — start a feminist blog with dating advice as the specific theme, and ask a pre-selected group of authors to weigh in with their own takes… the “sex, dating and relationships corner” of feminist blogs, as it were.

    After all, we have so much trashing — rightly so — the silly dating advice that does exist out there! We should step up and see what we could produce.

  71. I’ve been to one of David DeAngelo’s seminars. I’ve met the guy, and a lot of men (and some women) who have used his materials successfully. Behind the marketing-speak, he’s the real thing. His advice works and as far as I’m concerned it’s very feminist-friendly. I’m not kidding. After reading feminist materials and making female friends, his advice was the major step in getting over my issues with women. Like most so-called Nice Guys I had an inner resentment of women because they didn’t like me ‘that way.’ Well, I got over that once I realised I was making every single one of the 10 mistakes listed above, stopped doing them, and had my dating life improve dramatically.

    It’s not “common sense”. Most of us have no clue. Case in point: some of you talked about a guy who pestered a woman for up to two years trying to convince her to go out with him. In his case it succeeded, but this is otherwise known as “stalking.” Any guys reading this: that is bad, bad, bad advice. Do not do that unless you like the concept of restraining orders. Even if it didn’t turn out that badly, and he was simply rejected – do you really want to invest that much time and energy on one person who may not even like you? It’s best to date other women, and stay friends with her. She might even change her mind once she sees you’re not fawning all over her like a needy puppy.

    You also missed the point with respect to “arrogance.” David D’s thing is “Cocky + Funny.” If you’re just being arrogant, you’re not funny. In fact, in person DD doesn’t come off as arrogant at all. He’s a reserved, quietly-confident type of guy. If he says something that could be seen as arrogant, it’s also funny as hell, which changes the meaning of it completely. It’s playful. It’s flirting. You’d probably have to see it to understand it, you can’t really get the flavour from a marketing email. Whenever I’ve used it, it’s almost always had a positive reaction. Women know instantly what I’m doing and start flirting back. It doesn’t really matter how “attractive” they are, by the way, though I will admit it’s slightly easier with model-types just because being able to be normal around them is hugely distinctive.

    David D sometimes takes an evo-psych approach that I don’t always agree with but I don’t think it matters much. He’s really clear that what a woman does is her choice. A man can attempt to attract a woman but if she’s not interested – too bad. This goes beyond just “No means No.” If your goal is getting attraction and not just getting sex then you stop seeing dating as a process of bombarding a woman with gifts and saying all the things she wants to hear until she eventually acquiesces and sleeps with you. You want her to want you, and that old thing of I’ll-sleep-with-you-because-I’m-just-too-tired-to-resist-you-anymore becomes a huge turn off. The ultimate goal, of course is to get a great relationship, and that’s what most of the guys I’ve met also want.

    This post is genuine, I’m not a shill and I found this discussion by chance while reading feminist blogs. Incidentally I agree entirely with Hugo’s post on his blog and I suspect David D would too. His stuff works, I can assure you everything in his emails is real because I’ve seen and experienced it, and it’s made me a better man. I have no idea what the Irish thing is about though.

  72. Paul: You may or may not have read all the comments, but I recommend it. We’ve identified a lot of legitimate advice in his writing, and agreed there’s a need for it. However, he goes far beyond addressing the need and dresses it up with some pretty laughable shit to sell it. This is, again, not to minimize the need for some of his advice. If you’ll note above, we’ve been discussing how to address it in Feminist terms.

    Hugo and Lauren: If you’ll have me, I’d be honoured to contribute. I’ll warn you, though, I’m a blog-virgin. (And the other kind, so I have limited experience to comment on… 😉 I do, however, have lots of experience getting along with Feminists.)

  73. KG, we’ll put together a great team, I think — a group of folks who begin by sharing their histories, and then move into a discussion of modern romantic and sexual relationships, all with the goal of clarifying what it is that we want/fear/expect and so forth…

  74. Excellent.

    Tell you what, I’ll e-mail you and we’ll chat this out. I’m also very interewsted in have a gay/Lesbian/trans/poly/whatever perspective, but I’m not at all qualified for that. I wonder if Piny would be interested?

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