For Future Reference November 9, 2005 Lauren On behalf of Feministe: At no time, despite any and all insults and accusations levied through this website, will Jill or I lower ourselves to the indeignanty of litigation. Thank you, and back to your regularly scheduled programming…
Yeah, just wait till I sue your ass. But seriously – what if some crank started calling your boss at the school you work at, levying charges of inappropriate behavior against you for within bound poilitical comments on blogs? What if that person was wholly or partially successful in damaging your career or credibility? Are you telling me that you wouldn’t consider defending yourself? Or returning the pain? Serious question.
The condemnation of Wally has been almost universal. Sure, but that’s almost beside the point. What if some loser comes after your job? Whether they are condemned by a bunch of blog nerds on the internet would be the least of my worries. I have a cool boss, probably wouldn’t dent me, but lots of people don’t have understanding work environments.
Same with my boss, Bill. I think Paul has every right settle with Wally in the courts. The deal with his BPHD obsession seems highly unfair.
Bill, in the five-ish years I’ve been doing this, I have received death threats and calls at home. Other bloggers receive calls at work. It’s not unheard of, nor is it cause for litigation. Considering Purdue’s widespread and renowned tech community, I am sure PD’s supervisors thought this whole mess was as ridiculous as he should have.
But yeah, Hettle sucks. It’s worth noting that I read Jeff’s post distinguishing between Hettls and Dr. B, and agreed with a startling percentage of it.
Bill, in the five-ish years I’ve been doing this, I have received death threats and calls at home. Other bloggers receive calls at work. It’s not unheard of, nor is it cause for litigation. Well, not me. Someone leaves me death threats, I’m throwing everything I got at them. I’m not really getting the “Deignan needs to toughen up” attitude that’s prevailing here and at BPHD. Do we win some coveted Brass Bloggin’ Balls award now for proving we’re the best able to withstand offline intimidation? If anything’s a little chickenshit about this to me, it’s Professor Hettle’s behavior. About the only thing I can imagine taking seriously online is, as mentioned, a death threat, or a credible threat of violence against me. But smug, rude, condescending comments? I’d be calling universities all over the freakin’ country if I let those get to me–or I would if I had tenure, anyway. If you choose not to pursue litigation for someone messing with your offline life, that’s your business; but right now you’re within a hair’s breadth of calling Deignan a wimp because he does choose to pursue it. Seems a little macho to me, and I guess that’s the aspect of this I don’t understand.
…the tempest-in-a-teapot has served to pump up hits on his website to a level they would otherwise never have reached. He has gained a certain noteriety in Winguttia (the Freepers linked him) which probably keeps him warm at night. A telephone call to his adviser was….just plain dumb. But it doesn’t rise to the level of something which could be adjudicated…for a bunch o’reasons. your mileage may vary, etc cheers, DD
What if some loser comes after your job? Then some Russian shows up on their doorstep. Litigation is pointless.
Bill, wake up. I was there that day, watching in amused disbelief, as so often happens when a new troll hijacks a thread, and this Paul fellow was making an ass of himself. The whole thread quickly took the off ramp to the Twilight Zone. I don’t remember if there were veiled threats or not, but it doesn’t matter. BPhD banned the guy, which was well within her rights to do, with or without any threats. Her blog, her comments section. Someone else in the comments section took it upon himself to talk to the kid’s advisors about his behavior. Not BPhD. She had nothing to do with that. The kid has no right to go after her for anything. Whatever Paul’s problem is with Wally is entirely between them, whatever happens from here is entirely between them, and there’s no need to drag BPhD into it.
Jeff: “Ever get so drunk that you’re sober?” Wow. A whole new possibility. Drunk suing. A new concept I’ve never even considered.
Jeff, I knew you weren’t referring to drunk suing, but your comment made me have a brainstorm. I’ve received death threats because of my blog, too. The guy was taken care of. Not in a Mob kinda way, though. I know of one blogger who was tracked down at work and had the job threatened. Things can get ugly on the Internets.
One thing Paul seems to forget … the final element of any tort suit (like defamation) is DAMAGE. Even if it’s a per se offense, what’s his good name worth? A buck and change? Juries have done this …
The deal with his BPHD obsession seems highly unfair. Agreed. Bill, in the five-ish years I’ve been doing this, I have received death threats and calls at home. Other bloggers receive calls at work. It’s not unheard of, nor is it cause for litigation. Considering Purdue’s widespread and renowned tech community, I am sure PD’s supervisors thought this whole mess was as ridiculous as he should have. I disagree. I’ve had run-ins with people too, but the mere act of threatening someone’s employment or livelihood could be a cause for litigation, if there ever was one. And if you receive calls at home and death threats and really do zip about it, then I’d argue that you’re not taking appropriate precautions. Like what? Auto block all phone calls from blocked numbers, for a start. And if you knew the identity of someone sending you a death threat and DON’T think it’s a cause for litigation, I’d say you’re … well, I don’t want to insult you on your blog. Most speech litigation relies on malice with intent to cause harm, and going after employment/livelihood is the definition of malice with intent to cause harm (and potential to fulfill it, depending on the employer/dean). Silly litigation is rampant in this country, but when someone gets you fired from a teaching job for something you wrote on Feministe (assuming it was politically assertive but not mindlessly obscene, racist or threatening), you’d have a very good reason to sue. And when someone even tries it, I’d argue that it makes a very useful point to discourage that behavior. Bill, wake up. Er, I’m awake. I didn’t mean to imply that suing the proprietor of the BLOG (BitchPhd) was fair game, and if that’s what he’s doing, it’s definitely overboard. Suing the guy that took it offline, I can see that. For the record, I can also see other courses of action involving a car battery and nipple clamps. and A good reason not to deignan to pick appauling blog fights. Your definition of “appalling” is pretty wussified. People debate politics, trolls troll, etc. It’s part of an online forum. And just because some pro-lifer enters into a mix with strident pro-choicers and argues with them – even with condescension – doesn’t make that action “appalling” enough to learn ANY lesson that involves offline harrassment. As it is, from what I’ve seen of Deignan’s discourse, it’s not something that was remotely violent or even obscene, just politically and tonally unpleasant to the commenters. The blogger banned him? Within her rights, of course. Good for her, exercise that right. And THAT is where it should end. There is an argument to be made hinging on whether you agree with Deignan’s discourse, approach, trolling or politics that is completely distinct from whether litigation in response to offline (or even threatening online) harrassment is worthy.
This article (with interviews!) is a nice summary. If I’m understanding this portion correctly, the Deignan’s advisor at Purdue actually has asked him to restrain his comments on blogs as a response to Hettle’s complaint: “Yes, we received an e-mail,” King confirmed on Wednesday. “It said that Paul was exceeding his bounds, if you will, on what is essentially a private site. He’s been asked to refrain, at least until he’s [graduated from Purdue].” That’s fucked up.
Your definition of “appalling” is pretty wussified. It’s called “torturing the subject to extract a lame-ass pun.” Did you miss the part where I said Hettle sucked? If Deignan limited himself to suing Hettle, I’d not do much more than privately think maybe he’d gone slightly overboard. it’s not something that was remotely violent or even obscene, just politically and tonally unpleasant to the commenters. Ah, yes. “Right-wingers are civil no matter what they say, as long as they don’t use certain off-limits words.”
Let’s see here … Did you miss the part where I said Hettle sucked? If Deignan limited himself to suing Hettle, I’d not do much more than privately think maybe he’d gone slightly overboard. Fair enough. Ah, yes. “Right-wingers are civil no matter what they say, as long as they don’t use certain off-limits words.” Way to extrapolate a broad ideological argument out of my very specific comment related to debate! And yes, in typical normal people discourse, you can disagree with people stridently, and as long as you don’t tell them to go fuck themselves with a rotten salami or threaten to behead their children, it will not reflect poorly upon you in a professional capacity. That’s not ideological, that’s welcome to the real world, Chris Clarke!
“Right-wingers are civil no matter what they say, as long as they don’t use certain off-limits words.” Chris, I don’t think that’s what Bill said or meant. If you look at the comment thread that started this whole mess, there was nothing more egregious than snark and condescension. Nothing worse than the strawman you just utilized in responding to Bill. Or the smartass tone I just used when pointing out your strawman. In other words, pretty much par for the course on this interent thingy.
If I were PD’s advisor and I got an email from WH I would probably have blown it off…until I looked at PD’s site. I’ve never seen such a lot of whining and stupid, vindictive behavior. I particularly like the post in which he threatens to sue BPHD unless Hettle apologizes. The Chronicle article says his background is in “military intelligence”. Well, he seems to be a classic example of why that’s an oxymoron (emphasis on the last two syllables.)
Bill, fair enough right back at you. Let me just go look up the lyrics to Kumbaya. I’ll be right back to sing with y’all.
One thing Paul seems to forget … the final element of any tort suit (like defamation) is DAMAGE. Even if it’s a per se offense, what’s his good name worth? A buck and change? Juries have done this EXACTLY. And he’s certainly pissing in his own cornflakes by making threats and keeping a creepy, obsessive blog. If he actually had counsel, they would have told him to shut the fuck up by now. Unless, of course, he’s that sort of nightmare client who’s so thoroughly convinced of his righteousness that he’ll pursue a case against all advice to the bitter end. I defended a case against a plaintiff like that — he refused to settle even after the judge told him it would be a Very Good Idea, because he would be Entertaining A Motion To Dismiss His Ass come Monday. So he wound up with nothing other than a chance to get some things off his chest, and twelve jurors, a judge, three attorneys and assorted court staff got to waste several days of their time and be tied up over a holiday weekend.
Ya know when you are out of the loop when you read a strange post about litigation, then have to backtrack comments to find out what everyone is talking about… I really should stop paying attention to news and read the comments more often lol. Well courts were made for people to settle disagreements, without them we would just have duels. It would be cool if the two academics would decide to settle their spat with swords if you ask me! Anyway, it sure seems that Paul is getting alot of hits to his blog from the whole ordeal… wonder if he might thank Wally down the road for helping to get his name out there (and can someone tell him to put up a better picture on his blog?) I don’t see why Wally contacted Purdue anyway, does anyone have “the deleted comments” so we can see what the fuss was really about? This is just my two cents, from a guy in Indiana… not a lawyer or a really popular blogger. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night… 😀
Holy cow. I just read the article Hubris linked to. PD is 41 years old? 41? What a profoundly emotionally stunted individual. I feel badly for Dr. B. It seems his main reason in going after Dr. B is that she had the audacity to refuse to be impressed by him.
Holy cow. I just read the article Hubris linked to. PD is 41 years old? 41? What a profoundly emotionally stunted individual. I feel badly for Dr. B. It seems his main reason in going after Dr. B is that she had the audacity to refuse to be impressed by him. Well, and that she made libellous accusations that stand a serious chance of damaging his career. Kidding! I’m kidding. I was amazed to find out his age, myself. It’s not just the immaturity–you’d think after four decades, he would have managed to get into other frivolous lawsuits before now. Unless, as some commenters are saying and Paul himself is coyly, intermittently implying, it was some “experiment” designed to…mindfuck the liberals, basically. Because taking umbrage when someone threatens a mean-spirited lawsuit against a woman who doesn’t need the trouble or the expense means we’re all irrational.
Well, Roxanne, have you ever seen any female D & D characters make a high-level decision that required cold logic and critical thinking? I didn’t think so! Like intuition is going to stop a whole fucking phalanx of frost giants.
“That will get him laughed out of the academy” Only because of the cruel anti-male and anti-right wing bias of academia. Everyone knows that white men can’t get a break in the academic world. (Cue violins.) No doubt that’s also why he’s been in a PhD program for 9 years and doesn’t yet have a PhD. Though, admittedly, bad luck can delay a PhD almost indefinitely too.
I didn’t think so! Like intuition is going to stop a whole fucking phalanx of frost giants. I think you meant Shyeeeeaahh! RRiiiggghhhtt! Isn’t there a snort that comes after that, too?
I’m coming in very late on this topic…but if I don’t have the jist correct, please inform me otherwise. Is my impression correct here that someone has been levying death threats against Lauren??? (and Jill?…sorry Jill, but we’ve never been formally introduced) If so, I propose that we find out where this turkey lives so that I can PERSONALLY locate him/them and STUFF ’em. I am submitting my services for this express purpose. While Lauren and I are on what may appear to be opposing sides of the feminist/masculinist spectrum, make no mistake…I value her opinions, I learn from them, and I applaud her. I also consider her a very good friend. In fact, if it wasn’t for Lauren, I wouldn’t have a blog, nor a clue about how to start one. I value her accumen, even if I don’t always agree with her, and I admire her willingness to converse with even the biggest oppositional dumbasses on the planet in order to maintain fairness and ethics. She’s not very attractive…but other than that, she’s the total package! Anyone….ANYONE, who thinks threatening her makes for good farce best think again. Because I will reach down your throat to pull your balls out of your mouth. And make no mistake…I am more than physically and ordinentionally equipted to do so. I am also in the neighborhood! So when coming to this site and expressing your agreement or disagreement, remember…BE FAIR, or BEWARE! Sorry if I upset the kiddies here, but I’m an ex-Marine. Old habits die hard.
Well, Roxanne, have you ever seen any female D & D characters make a high-level decision that required cold logic and critical thinking? I didn’t think so! Like intuition is going to stop a whole fucking phalanx of frost giants. You, sir, deserve a kiss for that. Now roll the die and see if you get lucky with a pack of pixies.
“She’s not very attractive…but other than that, she’s the total package!” Lauren, I caught hell for this joke so please allow me to post a formal retraction. You know that I consider you a real-life ‘Mona Lisa’ but if I said it all the time, the appearance would suggest that I’m some old falukey trying to make time with a hottey half my age. “I may be a bastard but I’m not a fucking bastard.” George Clooney, from “From Dusk til Dawn.”