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Vegetarianism and Weddings

Jill

The answer to the New York Times’ question “Should a vegetarian bride serve meat at her wedding?” seems pretty straightforward to me: Since she’s apparently marrying herself, as it’s “her” wedding and she is doing the serving, she should serve whatever she damn well pleases.

Of course, marriages usually involve two people, not all vegetarians are women, and what to serve at a wedding should probably be determined by both parties. Details!

That said? Get over it, meat-eaters.* If a wedding is being thrown by someone who is paying for you to eat and celebrate, you eat and celebrate and you don’t act like a brat because you’re eating pasta instead of filet. If you go to the wedding of a Kosher couple, you don’t get bent out of shape when there aren’t oysters and pork shoulder on the menu. As long as no one is passing out PeTA pamphlets or rolling by in the Mitzvah tank, why be bothered? Will it really be awful to go without meat (or pork or shellfish) for one meal?

Of course, there are lines of reasonableness and hospitality, and those lines go both ways. Don’t whine if you’re a guest and there’s no meat, but if you’re the person throwing the wedding you really should not be passing out those PeTA pamphlets. If you’re a meat-eater and you know you have vegetarian guests, you should probably provide a vegetarian option. Also maybe also don’t act like an asshole and charge people to get in to your wedding, or refuse to allow alcohol, dancing or seats at your wedding.** You know, err on the side of hospitality when presented with complex etiquette questions such as “Should I let my guests sit down?”

See? Reasonableness is fun! And I really have a hard time understanding how any of this is such an issue.

Although vegans, I reserve the right to continue thinking it’s ridiculous that you don’t eat honey. I will, in my head and on my blog, continue to argue that such a position is silly and inconsistent, and apparently staked out for the sheer purpose of valuing consistency over rational or independent thought. But that’s just, like, my opinion man, and I promise won’t complain when there isn’t honey at your wedding (although I will raise a brow at your flowers). Just so long as there are chairs. The end.

_______________________________
*I say that as a meat-eater.
**To be clear, I don’t think you’re an asshole if you don’t have alcohol at your wedding. The “no alcohol, no dancing, no seats” line is from one specific story of a particularly horrific wedding — it was the “no seats” part that I found particularly offensive.

156 thoughts on Vegetarianism and Weddings

  1. “I will, in my head and on my blog, continue to argue that such a position is silly and inconsistent, and apparently staked out for the sheer purpose of valuing consistency over rational or independent thought. ”

    You are welcome to not agree with it, but how on earth is it an inconsistent thought? If you do not support the harming or exploiting any animals – and do not believe that we have the right to dominate them – then where is the inconsistency? There isn’t any.

    As for it being an independent thought, I’d have to say that it’s a pretty damn independent thought considering the few people who believe in it or openly support it.

  2. Why is not serving alcohol paired with not providing seats? My husband and I are liberal Christians who got married in our church, with the support and love of our friends, family, and church family. The reception was also at the church, which doesn’t allow alcohol. Not to mention that we had little money for a wedding and alcohol would have literally doubled our wedding budget.

    Some people don’t drink because of their principles or they are alcoholics. Choosing not to serve alcohol is a decision that should be respected along with the choice to serve a vegetarian or kosher menu.

    1. I disagree about booze being an obligation, though. Two words: recovering alcoholics. Plus, it’s expensive as hell, it shouldn’t be necessary for a good party, and some venues don’t allow it.

      Yeah, I don’t think booze is necessarily an obligation — it depends on your social group, the couple getting married, the venue, etc. There are always exceptions to every rule. That said, weddings are both a celebration for the couple and a party that you’re basically throwing for your guests. That’s why you should offer vegetarian fare if you know some guests don’t eat meat, even if you plan on having steak. If your guests are mostly people of the same religious tradition as you, and that doesn’t allow drinking, then of course don’t serve booze. But if your guests are a diverse crowd and are for the most part the kind of people who assume alcohol goes along with celebrations and dinner parties, then I do think it’s polite to serve alcohol, even if you personally don’t drink. Alcohol isn’t an obligation on the same level as providing seats, but personally I do think serving it is part of being a good host — again, assuming that we aren’t talking about a particularly religious wedding or a wedding for people who have some particular issue with alcohol or a wedding that is on a tight budget and so there isn’t extensive food or drink to begin with.

  4. Although vegans, I reserve the right to continue thinking it’s ridiculous that you don’t eat honey.

    Bees die in honey farming. Just sayin’.

    1. Bees die in honey farming. Just sayin’.

      Yup. They also die in the production of almonds, avocados, broccoli, canola, cherries, cucumbers, lettuce, peaches, pears, plums, sunflowers, and tomatoes, among other foods, when they are rented for pollination purposes. Pretty sure those foods are considered vegan, though.

  5. Okay, I’m going to come off as the vegan asshole, but…this reads as, yay reasonableness and accomodating others! Because you like and respect them! That’s awesome and I agree! But you’re going to throw a barb at vegans for something that you don’t HAVE to agree with, just because? Why? Did you have some sort of traumatic experience? Does it matter? Just saying. I was on board for most of it.

  6. Dunno about last part. Sure, spring for the chairs. But people are supposed to violate deeply held religious beliefs that presumably you respect at least to some degree, given you are friends with them in the first place? What if they’re alcoholics? I don’t really disagree that I’d *rather* go to a wedding with alcohol and dancing, but if they’re my friends (and they don’t abuse me with their no chair policies) I’m going to respect that. It’s not the end of the world if I can’t drink or dance for a single day. It’s another day to me, and it’s a really big one to them.

    That said, it’s a little bit hard to imagine having such friends in my sphere in the first place. Maybe they are more fun than they sound like?

  7. I’m also not going to even get into how rude and condescending it is to call someone else’s lifestyle choices “silly”.

  8. Just to play devil’s advocate here, how is not serving a meat dish different than not serving a vegetarian dish? An argument can be made that on the one hand the meat-eaters can still eat vegetables, but I’m sure there’s people who would say that they are still hungry from a purely vegetarian meal.

    I mean, in both cases, it’s about accommodating the guests isn’t it?

    1. Just to play devil’s advocate here, how is not serving a meat dish different than not serving a vegetarian dish? An argument can be made that on the one hand the meat-eaters can still eat vegetables, but I’m sure there’s people who would say that they are still hungry from a purely vegetarian meal.

      I mean, in both cases, it’s about accommodating the guests isn’t it?

      Well, no. Meat-eaters still eat non-meat food — as far as I know, there are not dietary restrictions that involve eating only animal flesh. You would be hard-pressed to find a meat-eater who eats only meat and absolutely no non-meat products. On the other hand, vegetarians cannot or for ethical reasons will not eat meat. A non-meat meal can be eaten by everyone. A meat-based meal cannot. That’s what makes it different.

  9. I’m totally with you on the honey thing. I think of it this way: The bees are employees, paid in room and board. It causes no animal suffering, as they make honey all day long without any prodding, unlike forcing cows to continue to produce milk.

    On wedding food, I think the guests shouldn’t complain about getting vegetarian/vegan food. Here’s the thing: vegan food is still food, even if you’re not vegan. Where did this idea come from, that you’re not eating if you’re not eating meat? I have much more cause to complain about the ridiculously overcooked salmon I was served at a wedding in LA, as that was terrible.

  10. I love meat, butter, and cheese, but some of the most delicious wedding food I’ve ever had was vegan (except the chicken dish, which was still dairy free). Even the cake was vegan, and it was great! As long as the food is tasty, stop complaining, meat-eaters.

    I disagree about booze being an obligation, though. Two words: recovering alcoholics. Plus, it’s expensive as hell, it shouldn’t be necessary for a good party, and some venues don’t allow it.

  11. Vegetarians and Vegans/Raw Foodists are two different things.
    Vegetarian food is usually pretty accessible to all palates. Vegan or Raw Food Meals however, can be restrictive in ingredients, and as such not enjoyable for people not used to them to eat.

    My boss went to a wedding for two people in the raw foods movement, and the food made her and many other guests ill because in some cases that happens if your body is not used to eating like that.

    I would say people should absolutely do as they please on their wedding days. I can understand no meat. But for vegans, etc. it would be great if they would put at least a vegetarian option on the menu for people who are not totally used to a vegan or raw diet.

  12. I’m vegan, and where I tend to draw the line is spending my own money on non-vegan food. So if I were paying for the catering, I’d probably want it to be vegan.

    Having said that, I threw a cast party a few months ago and ended up buying hamburgers and hot dogs for others to eat. I felt crappy about it, but I did it anyway because I wanted there to be enough food for everyone and I was technically the host. I also bought veggie burgers, which disappeared quickly (and there was meat left over at the end of the party). I think non-vegetarians are increasingly fine with eating veg*an foods.

  13. I hate it when wedding articles assume that the bride is doing all the planning and thus all the faux pas are her fault. Same thing with etiquette sites**. Isn’t there a groom* somewhere?

    As long as the guests feel welcome, the happy couple can do whatever is meaningful for them.

    *I am pleased to see that in more enlightened areas, there may be two brides or two grooms.

    ** Some of these are highly entertaining, but the amount of judgment passed on the brides is astounding. Several commenters even have to remind the others that the bride isn’t the only one getting married. Thank you notes especially.

  14. I think the one time I went to a wedding where the bride was vegetarian was my sister’s, where she elected to have the reception at a country club restaurant. The nice thing about that was that the meal was the ‘normal’ buffet, which included vegetarian and non-veggie options — Jenn wasn’t particularly paying for her guests to eat meat, but she did want to get a good meal for herself, and this way she could have something everyone would enjoy. (That and she didn’t have to do any detailed menu planning — just make sure that there was a vegetarian option.)

    Given the amount of work the wedding party puts into throwing the party, I’d expect the bride and groom should be able to enjoy food they like. As for me, I can live on vegetarian food, especially for one meal, and I’m assuming vegetarian and vegan catering 101 reminds people to include some protein.

  15. @Joe – In the past, I haven’t been satiated by plenty of anemic meat dishes at events, but I would blame that on a crappy caterer, not on the contents of the plate.

    @Jill – The anti-vegan snark doesn’t fit the positive tone of the rest of your entry and I find it sad you even chose to include it. And the article you linked? The 11th paragraph does a good job of summing up why many vegans choose to avoid honey and not almonds, avocados, etc.

  16. “If you go to the wedding of a Kosher couple, you don’t get bent out of shape when there aren’t oysters and pork shoulder on the menu.”

    “Also maybe also don’t act like an asshole and charge people to get in to your wedding, or refuse to allow alcohol, dancing or seats at your wedding.”

    Having an observant Jewish wedding = OK.
    Having an observant Muslim (or Mormon or Baptist) wedding = acting like an asshole.

    Thanks Jill!

    1. Having an observant Jewish wedding = OK.
      Having an observant Muslim (or Mormon or Baptist) wedding = acting like an asshole.

      Thanks Jill!

      Huh? No, not what I was saying. The “refuse to allow alcohol, dancing or seats” was all part of one story — it wasn’t three things I picked out independently. As I have said in follow-up comments, if you don’t want to allow alcohol, that’s your prerogative. But I do think you’re acting like an asshole if you don’t give anyone a space to sit down, and then you also refuse to let them move to music. The alcohol thing was just an add-on to reflect the full content of the story.

  17. Jill:
    Well, no.Meat-eaters still eat non-meat food — as far as I know, there are not dietary restrictions that involve eating only animal flesh.You would be hard-pressed to find a meat-eater who eats only meat and absolutely no non-meat products.On the other hand, vegetarians cannot or for ethical reasons will not eat meat.A non-meat meal can be eaten by everyone.A meat-based meal cannot.That’s what makes it different.  

    I’m not trying to be difficult (and hope I’m not coming off as such) but for arguments sake then, if you had a friend who only ate meat, he/she should be accommodated?

    I guess I just feel that the main reason why it’s not the same is that veganism is a more … accepted idea (and I guess no one’s ever heard of anyone who only eats meat).

    1. I’m not trying to be difficult (and hope I’m not coming off as such) but for arguments sake then, if you had a friend who only ate meat, he/she should be accommodated?

      Well, first, I’m not sure that a human being can survive for very long by eating only meat and absolutely no grains, vegetables, dairy products, etc. So your hypothetical is interesting, but I’m not sure it’s actually realistic.

      That said, assuming it were possible for a person to survive while consuming only meat, it would depend on their reasoning. “It’s my religious/ethical belief” is a lot more convincing to me than “I don’t like vegetables.” If they just only like the taste of meat and they dislike vegetables, then honestly I think they can get over it for one meal and no, I probably would not accommodate them. If it is an ethical or religious belief, then I would say accommodate them — unless the ethical/religious belief is at odds with the ethical/religious beliefs of the couple getting married (i.e., the couple marrying are both vegans, and are opposed to spending their money on animal products). In that circumstance, then the couples’ belief trumps.

  18. I agreed with the majority of this, Jill. And while I love me some honey, (and eggs and cheese, not to mention animal flesh), I think it’s perfectly consistent to not eat honey if you’re a vegan since it’s using and consuming an animal product. Vegans don’t do that.

    I eat meat (all meats!), though not a lot in one sitting. The one rule everyone forgets about weddings they are invited to is this: show up, bring a gift, eat the meal provided for you, and enjoy yourself. And FWIW, I’ve never eaten a vegetarian meal and felt hungry afterwards because there was no meat. I cook and eat a lot of meatless meals, and most avowed carnivores have actually eaten vegetarian meals in their lifetimes. Eggplant parmesean? Pasta and tomato sauce? Spinach crepes? Stuffed shells? Really, the world won’t end if you have a meal without meat.

    FTR, I’m also not bent out of shape if there is no alcohol or dancing for whatever reason.

  19. Of course people want their guests to have a good time at their wedding, but that “good time” absolutely does not hinge on whether meat is included in the meal. As long as the food is tasty, then I don’t think it’s the couple’s responsibility to violate ethical or religious beliefs because Uncle Harry and Aunt Gina will disdainfully poke their vegetarian dish and wonder where the chicken is. That doesn’t make the couple unaccommodating, it makes Uncle Harry and Aunt Gina assholes.

    Going one night without meat, or meat by-products, or gluten, or dairy isn’t going to hurt anyone. Being a jerk at the wedding of someone you care about will, though.

  20. Wait, who says a bride and groom should have to allow booze or dancing? At my Muslim friends’ wedding, should they have served booze to make the minority Christian/atheist attendance comfortable even though it is strictly against the religion of the vast majority of attendees, including the bride & groom? Methinks not. I will admit it wasn’t an awesome wedding, but it was still their wedding, and we all respected their choice. Why, exactly, is this any different than a vegetarian having a meat-free wedding?

    And also the dancing. Now I agree that no-dancing weddings are pretty awful, at least in theory. I haven’t been to one but my friend has, and she said it was dreadfully boring, especially since she was just there as her friend’s date and she didn’t know anyone and they were all just sitting there. But did she call the people throwing the party selfish or unreasonable for having such a wedding? No, she is much more gracious than that. It was boring to her, but it suited the bride & groom, and who is she to judge their choice?

    I will give you that the seats thing is a little odd, though. I hope they at least had the decency to inform their guests in advance so the ladies didn’t show up in feet-murdering stilettos.

  21. Just wanted to throw in…I love the Big Lebowski reference (But that’s just, like, my opinion man)…if that was, indeed an intentional reference 🙂 I say that all the time.

    And to keep on topic, I’ll just note how *awesome* it is that articles like this keep perpetuating the idea that the responsibility (and excitement) for a wedding falls squarely with women. Let me tell you, if there was one thing my partner was vocal about with the wedding, it was his opinions on the FOOD and the CAKE 🙂

  22. We had several vegans attending our wedding. Thus, we served vegan options. Very simple. We also had low-fat/non-cake options for the older parental types who have dietary restrictions (or anyone else who did not want the cake). Again, pretty simple.

    Some of my vegan friends mind honey, and some do not. ::shrug:: I ask before I make food for them, just to be certain.

  23. Being a vegan often means you bring your own food, or stop before/after an event to eat. Presumably if meat is such a must-have the meat-eater could do the same. So much of this seems to me to reflect the fact that people do not take veganism seriously as an ethical commitment. I can’t imagine anyone telling someone having a Jewish wedding that they ought to have non-kosher foods, or tell someone serving halal that they ought to have some bacon because it is so broadly loved. Religious food restrictions are honored as matters of personal faith but vegetarianism/veganism is viewed as a personal peccadillo that is up for criticism.

    And, frankly, if you complain that much about a free meal (and one someone else’s day), you’re kind of a jerk anyway.

  24. I am a vegetarian and am currently planning a wedding with my non-vegetarian fiance in the very non-vegetarian state of West Virginia. It is very important to me that a vegetarian option is not simply a third, almost afterthought option, like you might see at a wedding of two non-vegetarians. My vegetarianism is a big part of who I am and has been fore more than half of my life. But, since it’s a huge part of *my* life and not my fiance’s, it doesn’t seem appropriate to serve only vegetarian food, considering that WE are getting married. So, rather than the usual three options (two meats and a veggie), we’re having one veggie, one not–half of our couple, half of our menu. So far, it seems to be a pretty well-received approach.

  25. Joe: Just to play devil’s advocate here, how is not serving a meat dish different than not serving a vegetarian dish? An argument can be made that on the one hand the meat-eaters can still eat vegetables, but I’m sure there’s people who would say that they are still hungry from a purely vegetarian meal.
    I mean, in both cases, it’s about accommodating the guests isn’t it?  

    Well, as a vegetarian, I don’t think it is. When I attend certain family functions I resign myself to picking the best options from what’s available on the host’s table. While I appreciate it when a host prepares a meal with me in mind, I don’t feel entitled to special consideration.

    And especially when you’re talking about an event that may have more than 50 people, accommodating every single dietary restriction and preference becomes a pretty unwieldy task.

    1. When I attend certain family functions I resign myself to picking the best options from what’s available on the host’s table. While I appreciate it when a host prepares a meal with me in mind, I don’t feel entitled to special consideration.

      And especially when you’re talking about an event that may have more than 50 people, accommodating every single dietary restriction and preference becomes a pretty unwieldy task.

      Yeah, I think that’s fair — it is asking a lot to provide different meals for every single person who may be vegetarian, vegan, gluten-intolerant, kosher, etc etc. My point is that if you know a large number of your guests have the same restriction, it makes sense to recognize that (and I say this as someone who was a vegetarian for 11 years, and always in meat-eating households). And a lot of meat-eaters will also select the vegetarian option at events — I know I often do. A meat-free option to me is a pretty simple accommodation, especially if you’re part of a community where there are a lot of non meat-eaters, or people who may be Kosher (a meat-free option will often cover them, too).

      A person planning a wedding should obviously not be under an obligation to fit every single dietary restriction — including, in my opinion, veganism, especially if there is only one vegan guest. And people with dietary restrictions should probably not get all bent out of shape if their unusual eating habits are not explicitly accommodated.

      But as I said in the post, if you can eat the food, it’s silly to complain just because you don’t like it or would have preferred something else.

  26. Love this post, Jill! It really should be just as simple as being thoughtful towards other people. I love meat, and if/when I get married I plan to offer meat and vegetarian dishes that are equally satisfying (as opposed to, say, steak for the meat-eaters but only salad for vegetarians).

  27. Jill,

    The post you quoted said that it was a super-Christian wedding that didn’t allow alcohol or dancing or seats. Those are all religious things. In many religions, alcohol and dancing are strictly prohibited. In many small Christian churches (and other small houses of worship), seats are for the elderly or pregnant only. Your comment was very bigoted, epecially since the quoted article specifically said that it was religion that was the cause for the restrictions. Saying that you didn’t mean it that way doesn’t mean that it wasn’t bigoted.

    For those who didn’t click-through, the article Jill quoted said: “And, recently, I attended a super-Christian wedding that had no booze, no dancing, and no seats–but a small table with nibbles and a cake in the shape of a fish (not a Jesus fish, just a gold fish, the groom is a marine chemist). Go figure.”

    1. The post you quoted said that it was a super-Christian wedding that didn’t allow alcohol or dancing or seats. Those are all religious things. In many religions, alcohol and dancing are strictly prohibited. In many small Christian churches (and other small houses of worship), seats are for the elderly or pregnant only. Your comment was very bigoted, epecially since the quoted article specifically said that it was religion that was the cause for the restrictions. Saying that you didn’t mean it that way doesn’t mean that it wasn’t bigoted.

      I updated the post to reflect what I actually meant. And you know, if it’s someone’s religious belief that only the elderly or the pregnant should get to sit, then I think they’re jerks — if their jerkdom is informed by their religion, that doesn’t make them less of a jerk. A lot of people have chronic pain or disabilities that make seats, if not a requirement, a really helpful accommodation. Providing that for your guests at any party is, to me, a very basic part of being a decent host and a decent human being.

      There are a lot of religious beliefs that I think are ridiculous, offensive and intolerable. Not drinking alcohol and not allowing dancing are not necessarily among those, as I clarified (although actually, I do think not allowing dancing is silly as a general rule, but if someone doesn’t allow it at their religious wedding then I get that and I don’t think it’s rude or that they’re jerks — I just think the rule itself is silly). But you know, I don’t think I’m necessarily a bigot if I say that people who believe homosexuals should be stoned to death are assholes, or people who believe women are second-class “help-meets” for their husbands are assholes, or people who think that God allows white people to enslave darker-skinned people are assholes.

      Or if that does make me a bigot, I guess I’m ok with that. Just because someone says “My religious belief is X” doesn’t mean that the religious belief isn’t really, really crappy.

  28. Thank you, CBrachyrhynchos. (And also Joe!)

    It kills me when people say that “Oh my GOD, they’re SO RUDE for not taking my VEGAN/VEGETARIANISM into CONSIDERATION!” but vegetarians/vegans are not expected to give the same consideration.

    I think it’s rude and more than a bit self-absorbed.

  29. Hmm…thinking about this a little more (and I do fall squarely into the “do what you want it’s YOUR wedding side of things.”)

    If I was vegan/vegetarian, I think I would be inclined to only serve veggie options, because the MEAT portion of my wedding food bill is what cost the most, honestly.

    And, in general I advocate for buffet style rather than plated meals at weddings. It may not be as fancy, but it sure suits everyone’s wildly differing preferences better. People who have dietary restrictions (whether it be due to allergies, religion, ethics, or tastes) don’t have to worry about “picking” around things that way.

  30. Didn’t appreciate the snark at the end. So you disagree about honey consumption? Great! You’re entitled to that opinion. WTF does that have to do with weddings? Sounds like someone has an axe to grind.

    Not all vegans are raw foodists either, just to clarify. I live in Oklahoma, the absolute depths of carnist paradise, and I’ve served vegan meals to my relatives and friends. Most of them didn’t even know it was vegan until after they’d eaten half their meal. The stuff they make these days to replace typical animal products has become pretty sophisticated and tasty, and in all honesty, I don’t think most people pay a terrible amount of attention to the food they are given as long as it tastes good.

    I like your posts most of the time Jill, but irrelevant comments like that directed at a population I am a happy member of seems totally unnecessary. You can debate honey all day and all night if you want, but throwing it in there just because you had mentioned vegetarians/vegans in the post seems bizarre and rude to me.

  31. To the point of the actual post, I recently read an article about manners in accepting dinner invitations if one is vegan/vegetarian/some other dietary minority. Some people were conflicted about how to approach this issue with the hosts. I am going to two weddings this fall, and here’s how it will go:

    What kind of food are you all providing? Will their be options available for me? (if so…) Great! Thanks, that’s all I needed to know! Thank you so much for inviting me, I look forward to enjoying that day with you!

    (and if not…) ok thank you, I appreciate your consideration so much, and I look forward to enjoying that day with you! No worries!

    And then I’ll eat something before the wedding, snack on what’s available/drink while I’m there, and eat after if I’m still hungry.

    I don’t know which veggie people you all know, but I’m completely used to not eating everything provided at a communal meal or not being accommodated at all. And even though I don’t live in a veg-friendly place, I’ve surrounded myself with vegans and vegetarians in my town. I’ve never once heard anyone be crappy to a host or restaurant about being accommodated. At the end of the day, I think most people who choose this diet would rather be a little hungry or inconvenienced than contribute to a practice they find morally wrong.

    It’s worth it in the end for me.

    1. CuteRedHead, I was the same way when I was a vegetarian — would generally try not to inconvenience people with my restrictions, and would certainly never demand that a meal was made expressly for me. I think most vegetarians and people with dietary restrictions are the same way.

      But I have been around a fair number of people — and in the past few months it’s been vegans, so maybe that’s why I’m feeling a little salty — who have made eating with them nearly impossible. At a recent BBQ, for example, someone was put out because the salad that someone very graciously made for them had a little bit of honey in the dressing, and the person who made it didn’t realize that vegans wouldn’t eat honey. Not eating the salad would have been fine; exclaiming, “UGH, it has HONEY in it?!” was a little rude. Then they were upset because they didn’t want their second boca burger grilled on the same grill where meat had been prepared. (What were we supposed to do? Not start cooking at all until this one person had prepared and then eaten all the boca burgers she wanted?). I’ve also been out to eat recently with people who made ridiculous demands of the waitstaff and kitchen, and were huffy when the kitchen was not able to prepare a meal for them according to their very specific wishes (we aren’t just talking about “please hold the cheese” here). And I’ve spent afternoons or evenings walking from restaurant to restaurant with people were not only vegans but also extremely picky eaters, and refused to eat at dozens of places we passed. It’s especially frustrating and off-putting when food is a really integral part of your culture and social life, and part of a close friendship is eating together, sharing food, etc.

      Anyway, in my experience, you’re right that most vegetarians, vegans, and other people with dietary restrictions don’t make a big deal about it, and don’t expect to be accommodated perfectly. But I suspect that a lot of people have had interactions with insufferable vegetarians/vegans who demand exact accommodations and who make everyone around them suffer, and that contributes to the automatic skepticism towards veganism or vegetarianism. People expect vegans and vegetarians to be sanctimonious. They usually aren’t, but the loud few give everyone a bad reputation.

      Of course, that said, a lot of people just think veganism or vegetarianism is weird, or assume that people who are vegan/vegetarian judge people who are meat-eaters. So there’s the defensiveness thing, too.

  32. At my Muslim friends’ wedding, should they have served booze to make the minority Christian/atheist attendance comfortable even though it is strictly against the religion of the vast majority of attendees, including the bride & groom? Methinks not. I will admit it wasn’t an awesome wedding, but it was still their wedding, and we all respected their choice.

    Is it really booze that makes a wedding awesome or not?

  33. I think it is interesting how fraught weddings have become (or maybe have always been in certain social groups). It might be in part because a wedding reception may be the only formal entertaining people do nowadays, but I also feel like things take on certain momentous significance once the word “wedding” is attached, that might not exist for other sorts of formal entertaining, such as milestone birthdays, anniversaries, retirement parties, etc.bI feel like this comes from a vested interest in the bridal industry (in which I worked briefly) to motivate an arms race of spending through a combo of guilt and entitlement for both the wedding party and guests.
    Reading wedding articles/blogs etc (both in the past for my job and for my own recent wedding), it’s amazing how so much is expected for both parties: guests are supposed to shell out hundreds of dollars in gifts if they don’t want to be seen as rude, even for people they might barely know, while the bride and groom are supposed to bust their budget to provide anything their guests might want (and then some) to avoid being seen as stingy or worse, “declasse” (the articles are always dripping with classism). Article after article claims it’s better to cut your guest list than cut down on say, wedding favors (does anyone besides maybe the bride and groom’s parents really want a trinket from the wedding?), or do a buffet instead of a sit down dinner, or “gasp” cut back on alcohol (not to mention the horrors of a cash bar).
    My belief is: if you’re throwing the party, you get to call all the shots. Obviously, you should try to a good host, but ultimately it is your party. If you only want to serve vegan food? Not serve alcohol? Not have dancing? No one will die of deprivation for half of a day, and if it’s so disturbing for them, then they should pass on your wedding reception. On the flip side, the couple should not expect anything from the guests except an accurate RSVP and reasonable behavior. Someone doesn’t have the money/doesn’t feel like they know you enough to give a gift? That is totally in their rights, as a gift is optional. A wedding is about celebration, not extortion of friends and family for money/kitchen gadgets.

    Once people are like, “I spent $150 a plate and all I got was this set of lousy hand towels,” or “I bought them a $300 mixer and could only eat the salad” then basically the wedding becomes a very convoluted business deal, where you agree to buy household goods in exchange for a party.

  34. I’m planning a vegan wedding where nearly everyone attending is a meat eater. The same way that religious people should not have to serve food that violates their religion, I refuse to serve meat because it’s a violation of my morals. No cows or chickens will be slaughtered for my wedding. I’m doing my best to make sure that the menu is more conventional than the crazy vegan/raw diet that I enjoy eating, though, because (1) it’s polite; and (2) as Shannon NYC mentions, that food can mess you up if you’re not used to it.

  35. I dunno. You don’t go to weddings for food, booze or even entertainment. 90 percent of the time the food is inedible, the booze is shitty, and the entertainment is a relative whose jokes are only funny if you know the groom used to run around with boxers on his head singing I Will Survive (or perhaps that’s just MY family). You go to celebrate something happy for someone you (presumably) love (unless its one of those work related weddings which I always send a lovely gift and find a scheduling conflict). Its an important moment in their lives like a graduation…food, seating (for those who are able to easily and comfortably stand), alcohol, and dancing are not required.

    My SO’s friend civil unioned his husband a few years ago and they only served vegan/raw foods. We had some dishes while we were there and then hooked up with friends after to go to dinner, then a bar. Which is basically what we do after every wedding anyway…so what’s the big deal?

    That said I think it sad that people pay so damn much for catering meals that people don’t want to eat or that taste like salty, soggy cardboard, but hey…its their money.

  36. If your guests are mostly people of the same religious tradition as you, and that doesn’t allow drinking, then of course don’t serve booze. But if your guests are a diverse crowd and are for the most part the kind of people who assume alcohol goes along with celebrations and dinner parties, then I do think it’s polite to serve alcohol, even if you personally don’t drink.

    Oh come on, Jill. I do not need you to tell me I was a bad host because my husband and I chose to spend $4,000 on our wedding instead of $8,000 just so we could serve alcohol (the alcohol alone wouldn’t have been $4K, that price also includes booking another venue since the church reception hall was very inexpensive for members).

    The church itself does not allow alcohol on the premises, but our faith tradition does not forbid drinking at all, nor do our personal beliefs. My husband and I enjoy drinking, as do most of the guests who were at our wedding. I don’t think there was a single person at our wedding who doesn’t drink for religious reasons, though there were probably a few alcoholics or others who for whatever reason choose not to drink. They all enjoy a good party with some alcohol, and frankly, if the cost wasn’t so high and the space wasn’t so personal to us, we probably would have had alcohol. Our decision was our decision, made by weighing the pros and cons of both. We weren’t obligated by any outside forces such as literally not being able to afford a wedding for twice the price or a religion that doesn’t allow us. We made a choice. A well-thought-out one. One we stand behind.

    And that doesn’t make us bad hosts.

    1. Kataphatic, read my whole comment. I didn’t say you were a bad host. Read:

      Alcohol isn’t an obligation on the same level as providing seats, but personally I do think serving it is part of being a good host — again, assuming that we aren’t talking about a particularly religious wedding or a wedding for people who have some particular issue with alcohol or a wedding that is on a tight budget and so there isn’t extensive food or drink to begin with.

      Again, it depends on your culture and your circumstances — if your venue doesn’t allow alcohol, your venue doesn’t allow alcohol. If you’re on a tight budget, you’re on a tight budget! Of course it was your decision to make. I just view weddings similarly to dinner parties — what you provide depends on the crowd and who you are, but there are usually some basics, like chairs. Often, wine is considered one of those basics, but not always. Depends on the circumstances. Which I said in the comments like three times.

  37. assuming that we aren’t talking about a particularly religious wedding or a wedding for people who have some particular issue with alcohol or a wedding that is on a tight budget and so there isn’t extensive food or drink to begin with.

    I did read that, though, and none of that applies to me. Although your clarification that the venue itself doesn’t provide alcohol apparently lets us off the hook. I do agree as a general principle that hospitality when throwing a party is of utmost importance, but my specific issue is with lumping alcohol (and even dancing) in with such basics as chairs for people to sit on. Perhaps you wouldn’t have worded it that way if it weren’t for the link you put in, but fact is you did link it with that description, and in doing so you did imply that providing alcohol is just as important as providing chairs and that to not do so makes one a bad host. That really rubbed me the wrong way. Apparently you don’t actually think that, so I appreciate the clarification.

    1. Kataphatic, that’s fair — I agree that alcohol and dancing are not in the same category as chairs, and I definitely would not have worded it that way had it not been related to a specific story at the attached link (also because it wouldn’t have occurred to me to not have chairs at an event). But yes, forgoing alcohol which is something many people enjoy but not a necessity is much, much different than forgoing things like chairs, which are necessary for many people.

  38. @Elisabeth. I know exactly what you mean, having a wedding seems like a high-pressure event with a lot of rules and regulations that I can’t even begin to fathom. I remember being in grad school and hearing a friend of mine talk about how pathetic the wedding of two fellow grad students had been because they had a cash bar. It just seemed intimidating–I can’t afford to buy alcohol for several dozen people now as a gainfully employed person, let alone when I was in graduate school. Aren’t parties supposed to be fun?

  39. So I agreed entirely with the post until you got to the seemingly random thing about honey. I don’t understand the point of adding in something not even related to the post just to make fun of vegans. And maybe if you had read more or thought more about veganism you would understand that there are many good reasons that vegans don’t eat honey rather than just being completely dismissive. I was confused because that not only seemed unrelated but seemed to be detracting from your point at large.

  40. Shannon NYC: Vegetarians and Vegans/Raw Foodists are two different things.

    Vegan does no equal raw foodie. The diets and experiences of those diets are radically different. I’m sorry you had a terrible raw food experience, but you don’t need to conflate the two.

  41. It’s nice to know that on a feminist blog, respecting the choices of vegans is just WAY TOO OUT THERE in crazyland to comprehend.

    I don’t ever expect people to accommodate me by default, especially at weddings where hey! it’s not my day, it’s the happy couple’s. HOWEVER, I think it’s pretty funny that you’re gonna call out my choices as irrational and inconsistent on a blog post where you make a big deal about being tolerant about people’s dietary choices. Sorry that the whole not consuming honey thing is JUST WAY TO FREAKY to be tolerated.

  42. Oh dear, that actually came out way more intense than I intended, you can delete it if you want. I just get shit about the way I eat all the freaking time (in a family full of hunters and taxidermists), and it’s weird to read someone’s blog mocking my beliefs in a place where I usually find blog posts that have a little more consideration for different points of view.

  43. Putting my Kansas hat on, you also have to consider where you live- if you’re out here, not having meat would be pretty odd. But it would be a great way to introduce people to new taste sensations. However, a lot of this can be gotten around by not having a “dinner” reception. Appetizer buffets for the win! People are much less likely to notice, I think.

  44. Providing alcohol is totally optional in my book, but come down firmly either way. Either have booze or don’t, but for sweet baby Jesus’s sake, don’t have a cash bar. When I arrived at my cousin’s wedding reception, which was held at a very swank downtown location, a wedding reception she had been bragging about for the past year, there was a woman with a credit card machine selling drink tickets, and a sign at the bar announcing that it was 7 bucks for a glass of wine.

    And money was clearly not a factor. They had a 10 piece band and all kinds of extras (chivari chairs, lavish centerpieces, special lighting effects, not to mention her dress, which she flew to New York City to purchase from that store that has it’s own reality show on TLC) that in total would have covered the cost of an open bar about 10 times over. And the family had been complaining/bragging about how much they were spending during the months leading up to the event.

    Gross.

  45. So if you are a vegetarian, you shouldn’t feel compelled to provide meat, but if you’re not a vegetarian, you should feel compelled to provide vegetarian dishes? If it’s against cultural or religious beliefs, I agree, but not just on some random moral idea that vegetarians deserve accommodations and meat eaters don’t. At my best friend’s wedding, there was a vegetarian dish, a seafood dish, and a steak dish. She and her husband are Jewish, so I assume the vegetarian dish was kosher as well.

  46. I don’t know. We provided seats for our guests, but we didn’t have booze or dancing at our wedding, and no one complained or looked unhappy. In fact, all of our guests kept gushing about how delicious the food and cake were.

    Drunk people doing the YMCA does not necessarily equal a good time. Many times the two are diametrically opposed.

    P.S. It wasn’t for religious reasons. We just didn’t want either in our wedding.

  47. Miss S: So if you are a vegetarian, you shouldn’t feel compelled to provide meat, but if you’re not a vegetarian, you should feel compelled to provide vegetarian dishes?

    No.

  48. I also reject the notion that wedding practices are only valid if they are cultural or religious, otherwise, we couldn’t even begin to have feminist weddings after all.

  49. I think in American culture, a “nice” dinner usually means a meal with a meat. A “party” usually includes alcohol. Hence, when people want to change this, some people get perturbed.

    It would be like having sushi at a white Midwestern American wedding. Like hell my wedding guests would eat raw fish. Same goes for tofu. Does that make them horrible, horrible people? No. And honestly, I think if I told my family I was having vegan wedding, I think it would cause huge anxiety. What will we eat?? What will it taste like??!? Unless I can choose options that aren’t going to cause my guests to freak out (I think squash ravioli would go over well!), I just wouldn’t want to go there. They shouldn’t be thinking about the food–they should be having a good time!

    So do you have to provide x, y and z at your wedding? Of course not. Should you be aware of the culture your guests come from? I think so.

  50. Interesting article- there’s a whole world of Wedding Etiquette out there I’ve willfully blocked out, I think! The thing I can’t get over about all of this is that for most guests it’s just one day of your life – not even one whole day, usually, unless you’re in the wedding party and have to be doing stuff from 8am – 11pm. I liked the option in the comments above for couples who differ- ‘half of our couple, half of our menu.’

    On a more general note, I don’t normally go to dinner parties or anything where I’m not cooking/buying my own food without first having a word with the host to make sure something is easily available or if I can bring something- I’m pescetarian thanks to a combination of allergies and low iron. This is made more difficult because meat substitutes like Quorn and so on aren’t options for me, so saying ‘vegetarian’ doesn’t cover it, though this falls into the bracket for allergies rather than ethical preferences, so though I have experience with the practical difficulties of vegetarian eating, I don’t have a problem with people at the same table eating meat.

    Odd thing that just occurred to me: lots of events etc have a Single Vegetarian Option, which has struck me as odd in the past as that single option has been something like very spicy curry or made 90% of goats cheese, and I know of lots of people who dislike very hot spicy food or goats cheese. Given that not all vegetarians are the same in their tastes, are hosts at a wedding with a substantial minority of vegetarians obligated to make sure it’s something bland enough that everybody can eat it, given that there’s no other option for vegetarians? (Is this similar to getting a plainish chicken dish or similar for meat eaters?) (And if wedding food is generally quite uncontroversial, as it has to be edible to so many different tastes, are meat-eaters really missing out on much if there’s no meat on the menu?)

  51. Oh, good. Another internet thread in which vegans and vegetarians are going to get ripped to shreds for being sanctimonious pains in the asses who ruin every bbq they’ve ever been to.

    Seriously. We shouldn’t even GET married.

    Majority rules, tofu-eaters. Might makes right. Gee, that sounds familiar….

    1. Oh, good. Another internet thread in which vegans and vegetarians are going to get ripped to shreds for being sanctimonious pains in the asses who ruin every bbq they’ve ever been to.

      Oh PLEASE. Who said that? And you did read the part where I said I was a vegetarian for almost half of my life, right?

  52. Granted, I’m an asshole, and so are most of my friends, but if I’m at a wedding with no booze, no dancing, and all meat-free food? I’m not gonna make a big deal out of it, but me and my pals are going to spend the whole time talking shit:

    “Dude, this wedding fucking blows.”
    “Yes, yes it does.”

    Honestly, is that any different from how anyone would act? There’s no real malice in it, assuming of course that the wedding is for someone you give a damn about. Sometimes you give people you like some shit. Which brings me to my next point:

    Clearly the bit about the honey (and the “as long as there’s booze” bit ) in the post are jokes. Jokes, people. You know, ha ha? And here comes 50 outrageously outraged comments. I know it’s the internet, but christ.

    Also, for the record? I feel that any meal without the flesh of a formerly grazing animal leaves a void in my soul that vegetables cannot fill. Nutrition doesn’t even enter into it.

  53. Since she’s apparently marrying herself, as it’s “her” wedding and she is doing the serving, she should serve whatever she damn well pleases.

    LOL! Love this little jab. Sooo tired of everyone telling only the bride that it’s her wedding.

    That’s all.

  54. On to the point, though: I got married in a dive bar with people we met on Craigslist. It was awesome. Some people in my family were PISSED, but it was OUR wedding. Or, rather, official beginning of our marriage, as we didn’t really want a “wedding.” I feel the same way about every other aspect of weddings… it’s you and your SO’s wedding, and therefore, if people are invited, they shouldn’t complain. They’re invited and attending for one reason: to help celebrate a happy event. The end. If they can’t live without booze, steak, dancing, chairs, whatever, for a few hours or few minutes if the two newlyweds didn’t want it as a part of their celebration (THEIR celebration; not anyone else’s), then they can either get over it, or not come.

    Although not providing chairs seems quite inconsiderate.

  55. I was vegetarian for 10 years. Had I gotten married during that time, it wouldn’t have even occurred to me NOT to serve meat at the reception. Of course, I was more of a “don’t like meat” vegetarian, not a moral one.

    I would have just made sure that the vegetarian option was kick-ass.

    I don’t get equating not providing meat as being the same (cruel/wrong/bad) decision to not accommodate vegetarians by not serving something vegetarian.

    As a host, your obligation is to serve food your guests CAN eat. It’s not necessarily going to be food they want to eat. But they can. A meat-eater can eat a vegetarian meal. A vegetarian can’t eat meat.

    Not the same.

    If you know Great Aunt Ethel can’t eat wheat, well you sort something else out. If Bob has texture issues with tomatoes, he can sort that shit out on his own plate.

  56. Also, I don’t think vegans are weird or crazy or freaky. Like I said, I was a vegetarian, and I tried out veganism for a (very brief) time. I did look into it, and concluded that it was inconsistent and not actually all that productive or helpful or realistic for my life. I grew up in a super-liberal city surrounded by granola-hippie people, many of whom were vegan. I was active in women’s groups at NYU — vegan central, let me tell you. So if you want to be vegan, more power to you! Seriously! The thing about honey is a personal pet peeve. Like Uggs. Do I care if you wear them? Not really. Am I still going to make fun of them in my head because I think they’re stupid looking? Yup. Is that shallow and mostly pointless? Yep. Does that mean that I hate all boots, or don’t understand why people wear boots generally? No. I just think that subset of boot is ridiculous. And so sometimes I say out loud that it’s ridiculous, and sometimes I judge. Welcome to being a human being.

  57. Jill:
    Oh PLEASE.Who said that?And you did read the part where I said I was a vegetarian for almost half of my life, right?  

    Yes, I also read the part where your rude friends now apparently represent all vegetarians.

    People expect vegans and vegetarians to be sanctimonious. They usually aren’t, but the loud few give everyone a bad reputation.

    Substitute “feminist” for “vegans and vegetarians” and think about it.

    1. Yes, I also read the part where your rude friends now apparently represent all vegetarians.

      If that’s what you “read,” then I suggest demanding a refund on your education.

  58. Jill:
    If that’s what you “read,” then I suggest demanding a refund on your education.  

    Yours must have been quite the bargain, conferring complete infallibility and all.

    Making the part stand for the whole seems a pretty basic error but what do I know. I go no edumacation!

  59. Jill, seriously, I think YOU are the one who needs to chill. I mean your post basically says “All people deserve respect for their choices, EXCEPT VEGANS WHO I THINK ARE RIDICULOUS.” Think about it.

    1. Jill, seriously, I think YOU are the one who needs to chill. I mean your post basically says “All people deserve respect for their choices, EXCEPT VEGANS WHO I THINK ARE RIDICULOUS.” Think about it.

      That’s not what the post says at all. It says vegans deserve to have their choices respected, and to utilize those choices at their weddings. But having your choice respected — being allowed to practice your belief system, etc — doesn’t mean that everyone has to think that your choice is 100% awesome and perfect. Look, I respect the choice to only eat white bread and plain pasta your whole life — it’s your life, go for it — but I still think it’s silly. Respecting one’s right to make certain choices doesn’t mean that we can’t think certain aspects of those choices are ridiculous.

      1. Jill – You need to get your Islam 101 on. It is forbidden for Muslims to serve alcohol. Do you understand?

        Doesn’t matter how many non-teetotal guests are there.

        As for the ‘it’s a religious rule so I can laugh at it’, you are spectacularly failing to see that such laughter and mocking is just the thin end of the wedge for all the other crap that Muslims (and other religious minorities) have foisted on them.

        The post as it stands is gratuitously offensive. Sorry if that spoils your snark.

        Yes, I do understand. And I said in the post that the reference to alcohol was part of a story about someone who didn’t allow alcohol, dancing or chairs at their wedding, and that the part I thought was ridiculous was THE CHAIRS. Why exactly is that offensive?

      2. Ask the vegan if she had issues about honey, and do a salad dressing without honey, served separately.

        The point is that the person who brought the salad didn’t know the vegan had issues with honey. Obviously if she had known that, she would have made a honey-less salad. She knew the woman was vegan and that she would be at this BBQ — which the salad-maker wasn’t hosting, by the way, just attending — so she searched around online for a salad recipe that wouldn’t have cheese, etc., so that everyone could eat it. The point is, someone attempted to make her a salad and because they had no idea that honey wasn’t vegan, the woman got pretty bratty about it. Which, look, veganism is fine and I understand the frustration of not having food to eat, but if you have an unusual dietary restriction — and vegans are less than 1% of the population, so that’s pretty unusual — I think you need to expect to provide food for yourself a lot of the time. And I think you can’t start getting huffy when not everyone understands every detail of what you do and do not eat.

        Also? BBQs are things to which you can bring your own food. Other people did.

        Buy a disposable BBQ grill from the nearest supermarket, and use that for grilling all the veggie burgers/etc. Doesn’t cost much.

        Seriously? We should buy a disposable grill for the one person to grill her Boca burgers on? Look, I think if you’re demanding a SEPARATE GRILL, you can bring it yourself. That is ridiculous to expect hosts to provide that, when they’re already providing a grill.

  61. Don’t you just love it when you apologize and give context and then they use that context against you?

    The food thing is one of those almost meta bits of social behavior that in the interest of not causing embarrassment to the other party you do a disservice to yourself and it causes resentment. Food allergies have always limited my diet and while I have no problem skipping a meal of a dish I was often too aware of the shame on the part the host if they noticed the guests weren’t eating. I’ve also been a host who’s had to run around and try and scrounge something up because a guest hadn’t realized the need to informed us before hand of a dietary complication which could have been easily accommodated if we’d known before hand. There should be a rule that there is no shame in asking or saying anything before the plates are down.

  62. smmo:
    Yes, I also read the part where your rude friends now apparently represent all vegetarians.People expect vegans and vegetarians to be sanctimonious. They usually aren’t, but the loud few give everyone a bad reputation.Substitute “feminist” for “vegans and vegetarians” and think about it.  

    I think you forgot to read this part:

    Anyway, in my experience, you’re right that most vegetarians, vegans, and other people with dietary restrictions don’t make a big deal about it, and don’t expect to be accommodated perfectly. But I suspect that a lot of people have had interactions with insufferable vegetarians/vegans who demand exact accommodations and who make everyone around them suffer, and that contributes to the automatic skepticism towards veganism or vegetarianism. People expect vegans and vegetarians to be sanctimonious. They usually aren’t, but the loud few give everyone a bad reputation.

  63. Maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree here, but I wish more veggies read Peter Singer, and were utilitarians. It’s so much easier to think about vegetarianism/veganism clearly when you’re treating it as a commitment to minimize suffering rather than a set of dietary laws which need to be interpreted and scrupulously obeyed to allow one to remain pure. It just strikes me as so much dogma.

    In the current case, for example, a utilitarian vegan (such as myself) would simply say “having non-vegan food served at my wedding would cause animals to suffer in order to obtain it. Therefore, I should not serve non-vegan food at my wedding.” It’s not about me and what my rights are, (except to the extent that I can get everyone to go along with it because they want to please me), it’s not about proselytizing, it’s not about “politeness” (last time I checked omnivores can also eat vegetables), and it’s CERTAINLY not about whether you are eating the meat or someone else is. All this nonsense can be dispensed with in favor of the question “are you causing suffering, or failing to prevent it when you have the opportunity?” Bam. No more navel-gazing.

    So yes, I do think it’s fair to have a meat-free wedding. It’s not quite analogous with the food allergy or dietary law examples, because a person who can’t eat wheat gluten has no reason to care if others do, and a Jewish person has no religious obligation to prevent non-Jews eating pork. But someone who believes that animals can suffer, and that therefore they should be moral patients, has every reason to try to prevent this suffering regardless of the cause. So the case is even somewhat stronger than examples we already see as socially acceptable. Most of the pushback, I think, comes from the sort of anti-veggie sentiment that’s expressed a lot in our society. This decision becomes interpreted as just another sanctimonious, whiny, do-gooder, liberal, vegetarian hack wanting to have their way all the time, even though it shouldn’t be particularly offensive to anyone’s sensibilities (after all, you do eat vegetables – we don’t eat meat) and if it’s not made into a super big deal wouldn’t even be that noticeable.

    Oh, and by the way – I eat honey.

  64. What a delightful post for the first day of Ramadan. Or not.

    Jill – You need to get your Islam 101 on. It is forbidden for Muslims to serve alcohol. Do you understand?

    Doesn’t matter how many non-teetotal guests are there.

    As for the ‘it’s a religious rule so I can laugh at it’, you are spectacularly failing to see that such laughter and mocking is just the thin end of the wedge for all the other crap that Muslims (and other religious minorities) have foisted on them.

    The post as it stands is gratuitously offensive. Sorry if that spoils your snark.

  65. Jill: Then they were upset because they didn’t want their second boca burger grilled on the same grill where meat had been prepared.

    I wouldn’t either. Yuck.

    And though I eat honey and see no ethical problem with it, I’d be a little upset too if I were invited to a BBQ, the hosts knew I was vegan, and all they’d provided for me to eat was a single boca burger – not even a salad.

    (What were we supposed to do?)

    Ask the vegan if she had issues about honey, and do a salad dressing without honey, served separately.

    Buy a disposable BBQ grill from the nearest supermarket, and use that for grilling all the veggie burgers/etc. Doesn’t cost much.

    BBQs are a problem for vegans/vegetarians, because there’s no other party where the POINT is showing up to consume large amounts of meat (which smells fairly disgusting, once you’ve been off the stuff for long enough). But saying that tends to cause offense…

    I don’t mind showing up to a party where I know in advance I won’t be getting to eat because the host won’t be providing anything I CAN eat. I’ll just make arrangements to stay for a short period and then leave – I presume if the host wanted me to stick around for the whole party, the host would have been catering for me. That doesn’t mean cooking a special meal: on one occasion, a party dinner was centered around a roast duck, and the host simply cooked up piles of extra “trimmings” foods, so that I made a meal off the roast vegetables, salad, and bread that everyone else was eating WITH the duck. Low-protein for me, but delicious.

    As others have said upthread; the difference between meat-eaters and vegetarians/vegans is that you can eat OUR food, and enjoy it, but we CAN’T eat yours – meat gives the unaccustomed gut nasty indigestion.

  66. Wow, holy shit.

    How about serving what *we* want to at social functions *we* organise for the guests that *we* invite, don’t go to social functions that we’re not going to enjoy, and stop telling each other what we ‘should’ and ‘shouldn’t’ do at social events? Every group of acquaintances is different and has different expectations. This whole thread looks like an excuse for everyone to make veiled (or not so) judgments on other people’s dietary decisions.

  68. Ask the vegan if she had issues about honey, and do a salad dressing without honey, served separately.

    Buy a disposable BBQ grill from the nearest supermarket, and use that for grilling all the veggie burgers/etc. Doesn’t cost much.

    Fer serious? I mean, when I know that my personal preferences are way* outside the norm I usually take responsibility for looking out for them myself, rather than counting on my hosts to anticipate my every need and be 100% up to date on the newest fads in X personal preference. Even if I feel strongly about something, I can also get outside my own head long enough to think “oh, that’s a pretty unknown or rare requirement I have, maybe it’s on me to bring it up rather than wait for it to occur to my host.” In the BBQ case, I think that providing a vegetarian option is basically a “reasonable” amount of consideration — buying another freaking grill is absolutely above and beyond.

    And I mean, honestly, I don’t think that anyone really believes that eating a dressing with honey in it one solitary time is going to oppress bees. Complaining about the salad is not saving bees in any way; it is absolutely just someone being a sanctimonious ass to give the salad maker a hard time. There’s sticking to your morals, and then there’s obnoxiously making a fuss about maintaining the purity of all your precious bodily fluids, anti-vaxxer style. If honey is going to taint your darling self-image as a protector of all things animal, then just skip the salad rather than throw a fit.

    *I don’t care whether or not honey is unethical (I think it’s not, imho, and vegans are being ridiculously inconsistent when they pretend they can avoid all animal/animal labor products) but you have to admit that it’s not what most people would consider a typical food-related concern. It’s not like peanuts, where there is a major health risk. It’s pretty obscure.

  69. it’s weird to read someone’s blog mocking my beliefs in a place where I usually find blog posts that have a little more consideration for different points of view. bubbles

    I don’t personally subscribe to the idea that calling something a “belief” automatically protects it from being mocked. Though I do sympathize with you for getting shit in your daily life about your dietary choices, I also don’t personally see “people who are very concerned about bee labor” as a protected class anymore than I do people who sincerely believe in homeopathy or the healing power of prayer or the importance of wearing tinfoil hats. I reserve the right to call it all “silly” (you are allowed to call my beliefs silly too.)

    In short, I think Jill isn’t out of line to inject a bit of her personal opinions into her post even if her opinion is different than yours. Imho, stating that you think that a particular belief some people have is foolish is not inconsistent with a blog that also tries to be respectful of the people themselves.

  70. Oh Christ, Jersurgislac. So what if you don’t get a freaking salad? One facet of vegetarianism has traditionally been the promotion of a degree of humility in one’s actions in the world. And certainly a degree of asceticism is part of the tradition as well. I don’t need a lavish feast at every meal of my life. I’ve been a vegetarian for twenty two years now, which means I was a vegetarian before vegetarian options became de rigeur. I’ve eaten a bowl of rice with soy sauce, a potato, what have you, while many around me were having a relatively lavish meal. Obviously I’m not interested in long term vitamin deprivation, but if you can’t appreciate the simplicity of a less than extravagant meal on occasion, then you yourself are rejecting much of traditional thought behind vegetarianism.

  71. Jill:
    That’s not what the post says at all.It says vegans deserve to have their choices respected, and to utilize those choices at their weddings.But having your choice respected — being allowed to practice your belief system, etc — doesn’t mean that everyone has to think that your choice is 100% awesome and perfect.Look, I respect the choice to only eat white bread and plain pasta your whole life — it’s your life, go for it — but I still think it’s silly.Respecting one’s right to make certain choices doesn’t mean that we can’t think certain aspects of those choices are ridiculous.  

    I would just like some clarification on how the fact that vegans don’t eat honey, and you think that’s ridiculous, is relevant to the rest of your post.

  72. I personally hate travelling for hours to a wedding, seeing a bunch of old friends or family that I’d love to catch up with, and then being unable to actually *talk* to them over the blare of the obligatory dance music while three or four couples boogie and the rest of us just sit there occasionally smiling at each other. We chose not to have music at our wedding to facilitate conversation and while I’m sure there were some guests who prefer loud dance-party weddings, I saw a lot of people who were really happy to see *and hear* each other again.

  73. These posts always baffle me, Jill. It’s like here’s this excellent feminist blog, which tries really hard to call out offensive behaviour and discuss how everyone has a right to live their lives the way they choose. And then sometimes you get a bee in your bonnet (ha!) about vegans, or ugly shoes, or whatever and somehow it’s A-OK to just be rude to people. I know you’re the main mod on this blog and all, you can write about whatever you please, but this just strikes me as bizarre. I sort of thought that ‘judging other people’s beliefs and lifestyle is awesome and, in fact, part of being a human being’ was a viewpoint pretty opposed to working towards social justice, but what do I know?

    Also, reading comprehension, please? You’re calling out a specific set of people’s beliefs as ridiculous and silly, and quoting a range of examples of picky eaters ruining your day/party/meal out or whatever, and I don’t think it’s reading comprehension failure to pick up on that as a complaint against a whole group of people. If your complaint is ‘I met this one vegan and she was really rude about the salad someone made for her’ then that’s cool, whatever, there are rude people all over the place, but when you say ‘some people tend to do this’ or ‘vegans – I reserve the right to think that your not eating honey is ridiculous’ then it’s hardly surprising that people interpret this as a general criticism. If a large part of friendship to you involves eating together and sharing food, then how come you get to call people your friends when you spend ages getting judgy about their personal choices on that front? Maybe if they piss you off so much, you should stop going for dinner with them?

    Regarding the actual topic; I agree that reasonableness cuts both ways, but ultimately, catering for a wedding without infinite time and budget involves some people not being totally 100% happy with everything, and if it comes down to it, the couple getting married have the deciding vote (IMHO). My partner probably fits the bill of this imaginary person who couldn’t find much to eat at a vegetarian wedding because he just really doesn’t like vegetables. I could be an asshole about it and tell him he’s being ridiculous and silly and should just ‘get over it’, or I can be understanding that while he’s working on getting over his picky eating habits (long left over from childhood, but real nonetheless – he actually finds it really difficult to eat most vegetables without feeling nauseous), going to a vegetarian wedding is a really big deal for him, and maybe he’ll need to find something else to eat before we get there. We’d never refuse to go to a wedding on the basis of lack of meat or snark at the couple about it, but the food on offer is something we have to consider. Like I said, not everyone’s going to come away 100% happy, but I’d far rather focus on the good parts of the occasion rather than how awful it was.

  74. @Sid: Admittedly, my take on the booze-free Muslim wedding being non-awesome probably says a lot more about me than it does about booze-free weddings!

    And it was actually pretty fun. The Lebanese dancing was awesome and the food was delicious.

  75. I just want to add that, like some people have stated, a meat-eater getting meat at a vegetarian’s wedding is most likely NOT the same thing as a vegetarian getting a vegetarian dish at a meat-eater’s wedding.

    A vegetarian is a person who has ethical concerns about eating meat. A meat-eater, on the other hand, is simply defaulting.* They don’t have dietary concerns based in ethical or spiritual reasoning. (Well they might, but we’re generalizing to the average person here.) There is no food, at least in theory, at a vegetarian wedding that would be ethically problematic to a meat-eater. Is a meat-eater offended by tofu and chickpeas, or simply grossed out by them? Like many have said, meat-eaters can deal with going without meat for one darn meal, can’t they? It’s selfish to demand special treatment when someone else is buying you dinner.

    Now, I’m not necessarily saying a meat-eater needs to provide a vegetarian alternative, but sometimes they should. This is only contextually sensitive. At my own wedding, I will definitely offer a vegetarian alternative, because I have vegetarian friends, and I think it would be rude of me not to recognize them since they are there to celebrate me and my groom and our special day. But that doesn’t mean every bride and groom everywhere has the same demographic in attendance. If you have 500 guests and 1 vegetarian, it might be kind of useless to prepare a vegetarian entree. However, at some weddings, yes, I think it is rude to not provide a vegetarian alternative. The bride and groom know their guests and should at least be somewhat accomodating, so long as what they are accomodating does not offend their own ethical principles.

    *I’m not judging. I am a meat-eater; I love me some steak. Mmm.

  76. I grew up and have lived in areas of the US where vegetarians and vegans often outnumber meat eaters, so I know tons of people in both categories. I have noticed a big difference between vegetarians and vegans. While I have met a couple annoying vegetarians, for the most part vegetarians seem pretty flexible and usually are pragmatic about things. While there are gracious and accommodating vegans (e.g. my sister), I think the nature of the extremeness of the diet attracts certain personalities, kind of like very strict religions often attract converts of a certain personality.
    Deep down, veganism seems really all about purity and contamination, and the fundamental impurity of meat, which goes beyond any sort of environmental concerns or animal cruelty, which is the ostensible rationale for being a vegan. (A prime example would be asking someone to buy a disposable grill so your burger doesn’t come into contact with residual meat juices. If the concern were for the environment, you would want fewer coals burning and nothing disposable. If the concern were with the fundamental impurity of meat, then not wanting contamination makes sense).
    Plenty of vegetable or non meat crops cause huge destruction to the earth–non organic soy, rice and cotton grown in Australia, etc. while meat eating can even be environmentally friendly (e.g. hunting invasive species which are destroying the local ecosystem).
    There are of course people who are mostly vegan who recognize these things, but in my experience the majority of vegans don’t actually really care about the environment over maintaining the sanctity of their diets.

  77. Jill – Then why mention the alcohol at all then, if you just meant the chairs?

    Why mention that you think people should provide alcohol, even if they don’t drink (as you did in the comments) if you know that doing so wouldn’t be acceptable to several groups of people?

    1. Safiya, because as I said, the line was literally copied and pasted from the article, and I was trying to reflect the full story.

  78. My partner and I recently had a disagreement over how our wedding would be catered. I have celiac disease, which, for those unfamiliar, means I become VERY ILL when I eat anything made of, with, or contaminated by wheat, barley, rye, or oats. A single crumb can leave me in agony for days.
    I mentioned that I’d get a gluten-free caterer and all of the food would be gluten free so that I could eat anything there and not worry about contamination. She seemed appalled at the idea and said maybe I should just have my own cake and everyone else could have “regular” cake.
    Now, if it’s my money and my wedding day, I damn well better be able to eat whatever I want without being terrified of becoming ill. And what bride wants to eat some smaller, secondary cake while everyone else enjoys slices of a big, beautiful wedding cake?!
    Sorry guys, no bread at this reception. I’m pretty sure the guests will survive.

  79. This may be my bias, but this is the 21st century and in most areas, at least certainly here in the US, if you invite a relatively diverse crowd of people to a party, there’s guaranteed to be more than a few vegetarians/vegans in the crowd (many won’t even be open about it, some will fall under this category for dietary/religious restrictions as well) and I think it only makes sense to provide them an option.

    I also think omnivores have an obligation not to be dicks and eat all of this option before vegetarians/vegans have a chance to consume it as it may be their only substantive meal of said function.

  80. A vegetarian is a person who has ethical concerns about eating meat.
    Niki, I agree with most of your comment, but you’ve made a big presumption here. There are lots of reasons people become vegetarians. If you are vegetarian, it becomes pretty tiresome to have people define your own intentions. It happens a fuckload of the time.

  81. um: How is this a feminist issue?  

    Does it really matter? A lot of issues that aren’t obviously and explicitly “feminist” get discussed here, in case you hadn’t noticed. That’s one of the things that makes Feministe different from most other feminist blogs. And there are other intersecting issues like race, sexual orientation/identity, (dis)ability, class, age and what have you that get discussed. If you don’t understand how those things are important for feminism, you might want to try reading a bit more and then pretty soon you will.

  82. but I wish more veggies read Peter Singer

    “We should be allowed to kill disabled infants after they are born” Peter Singer? If it’s that one, I rather wished LESS people read Peter Singer, veggies or no.

  83. As an FYI to some non-veggies here, vegetarian doesn’t necessarily mean vegetables. Just so you know. We had a pescetarian brunch wedding, which we got so many complements on. Aside from the poached salmon, there were two kinds of quiche, many kinds of rolls with different spreads, and a delicious cake. Plus various h’or deuvres, salads, and vegetable dishes. Serious, vegetarian doesn’t mean boring or weird food that you would never touch. At one point we considered having a waffle station! And, seriously, who (among the non-vegan, gluten- eating folk) dislikes waffles?

    Oh, and our wedding was kosher. I don’t think people died from the lack of bacon. And we tried to accommodate anyone who had food restrictions.

    Also, an easy way to accommodate dietary restrictions at a BBQ is with copious use of aluminum foil. Just saying.

  84. . She knew the woman was vegan and that she would be at this BBQ — which the salad-maker wasn’t hosting, by the way, just attending — so she searched around online for a salad recipe that wouldn’t have cheese, etc., so that everyone could eat it.

    She searched high and low for a vegan salad recipe? Get this woman a Nobel, stat.

    There are proud historical and philosophical links between feminism and ethical vegetarianism. Can we not crap all over that, please?

    1. She searched high and low for a vegan salad recipe? Get this woman a Nobel, stat.

      I didn’t say she searched “high and low.” I said she looked around online — a lot of salad recipes do have non-vegan food in them. Do a search on Epicurious for “salad” — everything I see, with one exception, is non-vegan. A lot of salads contain cheese. A lot of salads contain meat. A lot of salad dressings contain cream or dairy or mayonnaise or egg. It is actually not all that easy to prepare wholly vegan food, especially if you are not vegan and are unfamiliar with the constraints, and especially if you want to make something tasty and original for someone, as opposed to just a bag of mixed greens with some olive oil.

      My point isn’t that the salad-maker was a saint. My point is that getting upset when someone makes a concerted effort to accommodate your unusual eating habits is incredibly rude.

  87. The fact that carnivores feel the need to put meat and grated cheese and mayonaise into everything doesn’t change the fact that salads are generally made out of vegetables or fruit. Vegan salad is a redundancy, or should be. I agree that the honey issue if fairly esoteric.

    So you have a rude friend. The reasons for that I couldn’t speak to, but her eating habits aren’t relevant. I still don’t understand why this anecdote was relevant in this context, if you don’t intend to bash vegetarians.

    1. So you have a rude friend. The reasons for that I couldn’t speak to, but her eating habits aren’t relevant. I still don’t understand why this anecdote was relevant in this context, if you don’t intend to bash vegetarians.

      Well, the rude person actually isn’t my friend, but that’s neither here nor there. The anecdote was included to illustrate why some people may be frustrated with their experiences with vegetarians and vegans. My point was, I was a vegetarian for 11 years, and I made efforts to not inconvenience other people, and I am typically really sympathetic to vegetarianism, but even I have gotten really annoyed at people who expect everyone around them to bend to their dietary restrictions. The point wasn’t to bash vegetarians.

    2. The fact that carnivores feel the need to put meat and grated cheese and mayonaise into everything doesn’t change the fact that salads are generally made out of vegetables or fruit. Vegan salad is a redundancy, or should be.

      Well, that’s a very nice opinion, but go to the store and buy a pre-made salad or salad dressing — a lot of it isn’t vegan! Because most people are not vegan! Welcome to life! And it’s not just because carnivores want to ruin everything for you. Jesus H. Better yet, bring your own salad and quit whining if there isn’t a perfect dish available for you, and be gracious if someone goes out of their way to prepare you a meal. You don’t have to eat it, but you also don’t have to be a dick about it. That was my point to begin with.

  88. Jill:
    Well, that’s a very nice opinion, but go to the store and buy a pre-made salad or salad dressing — a lot of it isn’t vegan!Because most people are not vegan! Welcome to life! And it’s not just because carnivores want to ruin everything for you.Jesus H.Better yet, bring your own salad and quit whining if there isn’t a perfect dish available for you, and be gracious if someone goes out of their way to prepare you a meal.You don’t have to eat it, but you also don’t have to be a dick about it.That was my point to begin with.  

    I love it when non-vegans tell vegans what it’s like to be vegan.

    1. Where did I tell her what it was like to be vegan? I told her what grocery stores are like, and that most people aren’t vegan. This is probably not news.

  89. This is getting kind of silly down here.

    At least for me, Jill, I guess I would have just appreciated a apology of some sort for making such a blatant generalization and essentially calling a group of people stupid for their beliefs. I’m a vegan, and whether or not I eat honey at this point is irrelevant. What matters more is that I’m reading a post about weddings, and yeah yeah I follow you, and then WOAH WTF does honey have to do with weddings?

    Comments like yours about any group, whether this group is intentionally formed or not, are not helpful and have rightfully upset a few people reading your blog.

    Rehashing and backpedaling about what you intended to say with your original post is not such a huge deal. Talking about your intentions isn’t an apology, either.

    But, then again, you might not be sorry at all. That’s up to you, but I know I was taken aback by your out of nowhere-vegans are illogical and I have a personal problem with that-comment and it wasn’t helpful that you haven’t up to this point really done much more except reiterate that point.

  90. Jessie:
    I love it when non-vegans tell vegans what it’s like to be vegan.  

    Makes me wonder…could this be another variation of “splaining”?

    Carnivore-splaining?

    Meat-splaining

  91. And just because this is going to bother me if I don’t mention it, there’s nothing illogical about not eating honey. If your reason for being vegan is simply that animals and their products are not for you to use, then avoiding them to the best of your ability is consistent. The question becomes about the ontological orientation of humans to non-human animals rather than using a suffering scale. To say that conclusion is devoid of independent or critical thinking as you mention in you OP seems pretty ridiculous considering that it takes independent and critical thinking to question the eating habits you inherited in the first place.

    That is merely one explanation for why a vegan might not eat honey that to me seems both logical and consistent. Just to put that out there.

  92. BBQ wise when we have a BBQ the vegetarian provides their own veggie burgers/sausages because there is such a large variety of vegetarian options nowadays. Also because all guests provide something such as burgers/sausages/salad etc. I don’t see why you couldn’t have done what we do and use a piece of tinfoil as a barrier between the grill and the burger. That way the veggie/vegan doesn’t have meat juices and fat on their burger and the meat eaters don’t have to get upset over “going out of their way”.

    Also what’s all this complaining about pay bars? Most weddings i’ve been to have had pay bars and i don’t see why the bride and groom who have put on a reception, paid for food, posh clothes, possibly transportation, decorations etc etc, and need money to start their married life together should pay for someone to get shit-faced. Which is what most people would do if they don’t have to pay for the drink, pay bars help contribute to responsible drinking and mean you’re not peeling guests off lampposts later on in the evening.

    My brother has aspergers and as part of it he will refuse to eat a lot of foods. He’s a lot better now but before he would only eat such things as chicken, chips and other potato products or cheese sandwiches. As he is now he still won’t eat any vegetables, broccolli actually makes him physically sick, pasta has to be plain, pizza with no sauce on it (like cheese on toast) and he will not eat ANYTHING with a sauce on it. If he doesn’t have what he will eat he will just not eat and then get fractious. He recently went with his Tae Kwon Do team to the US to take part in a tournament and despite repeated warnings to the team leader about this she thought that she could change his eating habits by simply not providing extra food for him. He spent almost a week having breakfast in the morning (cereal, pancakes, waffles) and then basically not eating apart from occasional snacks.

    If he was invited to a vegetarian or vegan wedding, would they have to provide meat dishes for him? I rather think that instead we would end up taking him out of the wedding, finding somewhere he could eat, most likely missing a large chunk of the reception and feeling like we’d insulted our friends. It’s very well saying “well all omnivores can eat vegetarian meals” but when someone can’t because of a disability what does that mean for this theory.

    Just to clarify, if this situation came up we would most likely arrange for a friend who wasn’t going to look after my brother instead of taking him. His needs shouldn’t affect someone’s wedding and this is just an example.

  93. You can’t win this one Jill. The outrage dial is set to 11, and no amount of apology or argument can turn it back down. You made a good-natured joke at the expense of someone else, and now it is completely within protocol to question your motives and moral rectitude. Even though the people here should know you somewhat by now. Stop trying to be funny on your own blog!

    “I would just like some clarification on how the fact that vegans don’t eat honey, and you think that’s ridiculous, is relevant to the rest of your post.”

    “These posts always baffle me, Jill. It’s like here’s this excellent feminist blog, which tries really hard to call out offensive behaviour and discuss how everyone has a right to live their lives the way they choose. And then sometimes you get a bee in your bonnet (ha!) about vegans, or ugly shoes, or whatever and somehow it’s A-OK to just be rude to people.”

    When you all get mad about people trading in the tired stereotype of feminists being tedious, humorless pedants, come back and read through this thread.

  94. “Better yet, bring your own salad and quit whining if there isn’t a perfect dish available for you, and be gracious if someone goes out of their way to prepare you a meal.”

    I wouldn’t worry about it too much at this point, Jill. After seeing your attitude, I doubt many vegans/vegetarians are going to want to eat dinner with you anyway. Problem solved.

    1. I wouldn’t worry about it too much at this point, Jill. After seeing your attitude, I doubt many vegans/vegetarians are going to want to eat dinner with you anyway. Problem solved.

      Good point. However did I manage to eat meals with myself for half my life? Mysterious!

  95. To M @ #93:

    “My partner and I recently had a disagreement over how our wedding would be catered. I mentioned that…all of the food would be gluten free so that I could eat anything there… She seemed appalled at the idea…Now, if it’s MY MONEY AND MY WEDDING DAY, I damn well better be able to eat whatever I want.” [emphasis added]

    M, dietary issues are the least of your troubles. I give your marriage 6 months–if you even make it past the wedding planning.

    SMMO —

    “Vegan salad is a redundancy, or should be.”

    You just made Jill’s point–the salad maker who looked up vegan recipes online STILL TRIPPED UP by adding demon honey to the mix.

    Jill is RIGHT that “what about the poor beez?” veganism is inconsistent–without commerical bees with this population and economy we are all dead–and the vegans would go first (due to their most limited food choices which MOSTLY RELY ON BEES.)

    Jessie:

    “I love it when non-vegans tell vegans what it’s like to be vegan.”

    Got it.

    To summarize;
    1. don’t engage vegans in conversation where you express any knowledge of veganism whatsoever unless you never touch animal products
    2. don’t use your experience of 11 years of vegetarianism to try to figure out what vegans like and will eat,
    3. don’t look up salad recipes online because vegan salad is “redundant”…
    3…unless you put honey in it in which case you’re an exploitative slave-supporter and a terrible host.

    Jill, for god/ess’s sake, if you ever get married, ELOPE!

  96. I was just noticing yesterday how “humorless vegan” is becoming the new “humorless feminist” (or sharing the pedestal with it anyway). I am angered by being called ridiculous and inconsistent. I think that is reasonable. I don’t think it is funny to be glibly dismissed.

    but I just can’t take a joke. You didn’t mean it “that way.”

    and what do I know anyway? I’m totally humorless.

    the road to veganism is personal and often not a quick decision. If you want to discuss honey, discuss it. Don’t just decide I am totally inconsistent without looking into it.

    you’re really being rude, and instead of apologizing, you are just grasping at straws and back peddling. why not say “sorry, I let my personal feelings about a specific situation color the way I views a population.”

  97. I knew “quit whining” was going to come into this at some point. After all “sanctimonious” did.

    I’ve got stories too, Jill. The fact that honey-person isn’t your friend is actually pertinent. Maybe honey-person and salad-maker have a long standing antipathy on the subject of her diet? Sort of like my in-laws, who have known me for nearly 20 years and still say things like “you eat ham, right?” Or “you can pick the sausage out, come on, what’s the big deal?” I’m not even vegan – my diet is hardly difficult to accommodate. I don’t say anything, I just don’t eat.

    I simply will not be told that my diet signifies anything about my manners. And shame on anyone who claims it does.

    1. I simply will not be told that my diet signifies anything about my manners. And shame on anyone who claims it does.

      It’s good, then, that no one actually said that.

  98. Jill:
    Well, that’s a very nice opinion, but go to the store and buy a pre-made salad or salad dressing — a lot of it isn’t vegan!Because most people are not vegan! Welcome to life! And it’s not just because carnivores want to ruin everything for you.Jesus H.Better yet, bring your own salad and quit whining if there isn’t a perfect dish available for you, and be gracious if someone goes out of their way to prepare you a meal.You don’t have to eat it, but you also don’t have to be a dick about it.That was my point to begin with.  

    This is “I’m sympathetic to vegetarians”? I’d hate to see unsympathetic.

  99. Sid:I also think omnivores have an obligation not to be dicks and eat all of this option before vegetarians/vegans have a chance to consume it as it may be their only substantive meal of said function. 

    Which is another reason why it’s a good idea to either have an all-veggie event or to tell the guests the menu choices beforehand and ask them to tell you what they want to eat when they RSVP (provided it’s a sit-down meal). That way, you know you have enough veggie food, people have a chance to see if they’re going to need to make special arrangements for allergies/coeliac/veganism/other requirements you haven’t included, and if omnivores think the veggie option looks interesting, they can have that without depriving someone who needs it.

    My preferred way of doing it would be to default to vegetarian, with the less common option being meaty, rather than meat being the default. Because that way, the default is something most people can eat, and there’s an option for the meat-eaters to have meat if they like, so everyone hopefully also gets something they like.

    On the barbeque thing – I do think it’s good manners to provide a separate disposable grill for veggie food, unless you’re sure no-one vegetarian/vegan is coming. But I’m probably a bit biased on that, since my sister is vegetarian and lots of my other friends are either vegan or vegetarian, so I very rarely go to barbeques where there are no veggies coming.
    (I also think barbeques are not complete without plain salad, bread, vegetable kebabs and halloumi, so barbeques-Morgan-enjoys probably overlap fairly well with veggie-friendly-barbeques anyway…which makes my opinion not really representative of meat-eaters, probably)

    1. On the barbeque thing – I do think it’s good manners to provide a separate disposable grill for veggie food, unless you’re sure no-one vegetarian/vegan is coming. But I’m probably a bit biased on that, since my sister is vegetarian and lots of my other friends are either vegan or vegetarian, so I very rarely go to barbeques where there are no veggies coming.

      See, I’ve never even heard of anyone doing this. I attended BBQs when I was a vegetarian, and I wasn’t going to eat hamburgers but I didn’t really care if my veggie burger was cooked on the same grill as meat. I host BBQs pretty regularly, and all my vegetarian friends eat the veggie burgers provided and aren’t bothered by using the same grilling surface (and yes, I ask them). We also usually grill the veggie burgers first, and give them their own spot on the grill. I’ve never had someone refuse to eat a veggie burger that was grilled on the same surface as meat, and I personally never refused a veggie burger grilled on a meat grill. I also attend BBQs pretty often, and I’ve never seen someone bring out a disposable grill. I mean, do you order veggie burgers at restaurants? Do you really think they don’t use the same grill? That said, if a vegetarian doesn’t want their food to touch anything else, then they can bring their own grill. I just think it’s a little much to ask the host to provide an entirely separate grill.

  100. The whole BBQ thing to me is really a non-issue. If any veggies are really concerned, you can easily just grill on aluminum foil. And if you’re ordering veggie at a restaurant, almost all of them will kindly oblige a request for an area of the grill to be cleaned before cooking your meat, and I don’t think they view it as a big deal. I don’t think there’s any reason to be confrontational either about expressing or accommodating dietary requests/needs since there’s normally an amicable solution.

  101. This is why I’m always like, “really?” when people complain about how some posts in feminist spaces get few comments while others get a ton. When a post has many comments, it mostly means that people are pissed off at each other.

  102. What’s a disposable grill? Why would one use a grill one time and then throw it away?

    More to the point, why would anyone host a wedding at all? What a huge pain in the arse!

  103. Morgan: I like the sound of the BBQs you go to. Seriously, ppl, grilled halloumi and vegetable kebabs are THE way to go.

    And Jill, the absence of chairs thing sounds like a really terrible wedding. And it may well be a religious thing, but I fail to understand why it’s so important to any god that one’s feet hurt all the time. I don’t remember reading in the Bible (and I HAVE read it) that ‘thou shalt not be seated’.

  104. I’ve never heard of a disposable grill but someone said upthread–foil. I don’t ever cook vegetarian food on the same grill/surface/pan with meat products. After 20+ years of not eating meat eating animal fat has, erm, impolite consequences. And, Elisabeth, it has nothing to do with ideas about “impurity” or whatever–it has to do with viewing the consumption of meat as wrong and being physically unable to handle meat. And I have to say that yes, I do get upset when people make sweeping statements like this:

    There are of course people who are mostly vegan who recognize these things, but in my experience the majority of vegans don’t actually really care about the environment over maintaining the sanctity of their diets.

    It’s easy to get defensive when people generalize about (and judge) an entire group from their own experience.

  105. Re: disposable grills – I’ve seen them a lot in the UK, don’t know what things are like in the US. They’re small trays of aluminium filled with coals and with a small grid over the top, you can set them down somewhere heat-resistant, light it and have about one-two hours worth of grilling time. Very handy if you don’t own a grill yourself. *is grad student*

    And all the recent times I’ve been to a barbeque we had separate grills for the vegetarians. In fact, at one a few months ago we had a veggie, someone who didn’t eat pork, someone who didn’t eat beef (both of the last two for religious reasons), someone who’d prefer not to eat fish, two omnivores and three disposable grills. We managed to come up with a system that allowed everyone to avoid their food coming into contact with something they didn’t eat, and we never even considered telling the veggie to just suck it up (or, more likely, me as the non-fish person – I did offer because that’s extreme dislike rather than religion or ethics, but we found a way to accommodate everyone.)

  106. Samantha b.-
    I never claimed to be vegetarian. I’m definitely not. But I keep kosher, so eating meat is a pain in the ass. As a result, I don’t do it often. Whenever vegetarianism comes up, people often are all, like “Ewwww! Vegetarian food! I could never eat that!” But my point is that people do eat vegetarian food all the time. It’s really not that big of a deal.

  107. tinfoil hattie – my experience of hosting a wedding was that, while time-consuming and stressful, the only time it became a pain in the arse was when other people couldn’t come to grips with the choices we made, about everything from food and drink to children at the wedding to–seriously!–my dress. Everyone and their uncle seemed to feel entitled to either get something out of or put something into our wedding. Thankfully my fiance and I had a ton of supportive folks who were genuinely supportive and not pushy, and towards the rest, we just had an attitude of “it’s their problem, not ours” so it all turned out well. But that’s what got me about this OP too–the strong opinions people have about what other people should or shouldn’t do at their weddings is really stunning, and quite shocking to see it in a feminist space.

  108. Hypothetical Woman, I used to be friends with a woman who was a member of an orthodox church, and I believe that they had rules about remaining standing for some ceremonies and services (generally the more important ones). Obviously, this was only for those who were physically able to do so. I think the author of the original article that Jill linked to was purposefully leaving details out in order to make the choices made by the hosts sound ridiculous.

  109. Man, people complaining about contamination in their food, contamination in their blogs, contamination in their feminism… feminists aren’t humorous, we’re just compulsive handwashers! :p

    (And come on, y’all, I was totally ruder than Jill was, upthread. I’ll say it again — not eating honey is silly! Complaining at length that not everyone thinks your self-imposed purity-based dietary restrictions are very srs bizness is likewise silly.)

  112. tinfoil hattie: What’s a disposable grill?Why would one use a grill one time and then throw it away?More to the point, why would anyone host a wedding at all?What a huge pain in the arse!  

    You answered your first question when you asked your second one.

    As to the answer for that one…many people (like myself) like hosting BBQs but don’t do it often enough to shell out the money for a regular grill. Or a lot of people simply can’t afford one. Did you ever think of that?

    Your privilege is showing.

  113. Mate, no. Chally

    Eh, I was saying it with love, as someone who is herself somewhat OCD. But fair enough.

  114. I mean, do you order veggie burgers at restaurants? Do you really think they don’t use the same grill?

    At a restaurant, I have a reasonable expectation of hygiene. I expect that meat fat from previous meals cooked on the same equipment will not be contaminating the next meal cooked there.

    I have no such expectation of an at-home BBQ.

    Jill, in all seriousness, this kind of aggressive suck-it-up attitude towards vegans / vegetarians is why my usual response to invites to BBQs is “Thanks, but really – I’m vegetarian, I don’t eat meat, I don’t want to give you the trouble.”

    (However phrased.)

    If they respond with plans/explanations of how they’re planning to cater for their vegetarian guests, that’s great. If they react with “Oh, I’m sure there’ll be something you can eat” I … tend to be dubious.

    Samantha b.: One facet of vegetarianism has traditionally been the promotion of a degree of humility in one’s actions in the world. And certainly a degree of asceticism is part of the tradition as well. I don’t need a lavish feast at every meal of my life. I’ve been a vegetarian for twenty two years now, which means I was a vegetarian before vegetarian options became de rigeur.

    I’ve been a vegetarian for 43 years now, so, you know: likewise. I don’t need a lavish feast at every meal of my life. But if I’m invited to a lavish feast, I kinda like getting to, well, feast lavishly. That’s sort of the point of parties, isn’t it?

    I’ve eaten a bowl of rice with soy sauce, a potato, what have you, while many around me were having a relatively lavish meal.

    And I’ve sat at a children’s party, age 7, while all the other children around me were tucking into a lavish meal, eating tinned pasta on toast because literally everything else had meat in it, and we weren’t allowed to move on to the cake until we’d had a proper meal. Somehow I did not take from that the “promotion of a degree of humility” – I was humilitated and hungry and angry that everyone else was having lots of food specially prepared, while I was having a tin of pasta.

    Obviously I’m not interested in long term vitamin deprivation, but if you can’t appreciate the simplicity of a less than extravagant meal on occasion, then you yourself are rejecting much of traditional thought behind vegetarianism.

    Yes. I’m not a vegetarian because of “traditional thought”: I’m a vegetarian because my parents brought me up to be one. I’ve never liked the smell or look or feel of meat, when I’ve had to smell it (or accidentally eaten some) and even a small amount of meat gives me gut problems, because I can’t digest it.

    I’m not interested in being invited to a party and “promoting humility in every day life”. I’m not Gandhi. If I’m invited to a party, I want to believe I was invited because the host wants us all to have a good time.

  115. The “bring your own” thing –

    Look, you’re right that a BBQ is traditionally a bring-and-share sort of party. The issue about the grill aside (and in the UK, disposable grills are cheap and easy for the BBQ host to buy and set up if they care) it’s not a problem for the vegan guest to bring their own supply of vegan burgers – though if the host is supplying meat burgers, it would be polite for them to also supply non-meat burgers.

    But for most parties, most social occasions, unless specifically invited as a “bring and share” event, it’s considered (in my culture) actively rude for a guest to bring their own food to eat at the dinner table. There are exceptions, but most of them come with “My diet is way too complicated to ask you to cater to it, so please, may I just bring my own meal”. If I’m eating with non-vegetarians, and they’re the hosts, whatever they serve up for me as the vegetarian option – providing it has no meat or fish or gelatine – whatever it is, I’ll eat it with a pleasant expression of appreciation and think of something nice to say about it. I won’t bring my own food or suggest I should. I won’t be rude about what other people are eating. I won’t suggest I’m somehow “better” because I’m eating with humility, as Samantha suggests upthread.

    Even when I was 7 and miserable I ate my pasta and thanked my hostess (and cried about it only afterwards with my mum, who assured me she had told them we were vegetarian, she just hadn’t wanted to make a picky point of “and what will you be giving my daughter to eat?” especially as she hadn’t known a sit-down meal would be part of the party).

    But yeah: I prefer hosts who actually think “What can I give my guests to eat they’ll enjoy?” rather than “Whaddyamean, you won’t eat it because it’s got meat in it? What, you expect ‘special treatment’? If you won’t eat what everyone else is eating, go hungry!”

  116. @Shosie, yeah, absolutely. There’s just this tiresome set of questions you get *every* goddamned time you say you’re a vegetarian. No one seems to believe that I might using the word to indicate “vegetarian” as defined; they all want to query about whether you eat chicken, fish, or dairy. As a fundamentally impatient person, this is not a conversation I much enjoy rehashing ad infinitum.

  117. At a restaurant, I have a reasonable expectation of hygiene. I expect that meat fat from previous meals cooked on the same equipment will not be contaminating the next meal cooked there.

    Yeah, I wouldn’t be so confident in that expectation. Pans are often just wiped out and there’s usually not a space on the grill just for vegetarian items.

  118. FE: Yeah, I wouldn’t be so confident in that expectation. Pans are often just wiped out and there’s usually not a space on the grill just for vegetarian items.

    Depends on the restaurant. Some POS places don’t care if their customers get bellyaches from eating there: some are staffed by people who have a “Whaddyawant, SPECIAL service?” attitude to preparing and cooking food. You know, there are restaurants where there are things I wouldn’t order because they’re probably not cooked to standard and they’ll make me sick. It’s a good reason for basically not ordering vegeburgers except in a place you trust.

    But, yeah: a restaurant with a professional standard of food preparation that takes pride in their customer service, is not going to serve a meal with meat grease all over it to a customer who asked for the vegetarian option.

    Whereas, as we’ve seen with Jill and a bunch of other commenters on this thread, to amateur chefs who just want to have a good time with the barbie and don’t want the buzzkill of someone with picky, picky attitudes to food like “I don’t eat meat, thanks” will have no compunction about telling a vegetarian to eat up the meat-greased vegeburger or go hungry.

  119. Sure, if you ask at a restaurant, they’ll accommodate you. Otherwise, those grill cooks are not paying that much attention.

  120. Sure, if you ask at a restaurant, they’ll accommodate you. Otherwise, those grill cooks are not paying that much attention.

    That’s how you lose customers – by not paying attention.

    I certainly wouldn’t go to any restaurant twice if the food gave me diarrhea or even just indigestion, and I’d warn anyone who asked about that restaurant that the food served there may be contaminated. Bad enough gut pains/diarrhea and I report them to whatever the local city authority is.

    If a restaurant needs to be asked not to contaminate the customer’s food, they’re in the wrong business, and they need to get out of it before it leaves them

  121. It may be impossible to eat and live in such a way that completely avoids harming animals and the environment, but I certainly don’t begrudge anyone for trying to do what they can. I think that may be the most productive way to look at vegans who avoid honey. I’m sure they know they are not avoiding harm completely but they feel better knowing they are making an effort to minimize what they perceive as causing harm. Really, it doesn’t negatively effect anyone so, I don’t see why it’s a big deal?

  122. I do not understand why it’s so hard to provide entrees and food your guests or customers can eat. This is a reasonable expectation.

    I mean, there are cookbooks out there if you are stuck. Heck, ask your vegetarian or vegan friends for some recommendations. Have a few recipes in your repitoire.

    Ratatouie is a good vegetarian dish. As are zucchini fritters. As is potato and lentil casserole with mustard green pesto. As is vegetarian lasagne. Good vegan dishes are ratatouille; potato and lentil casserole with pesto (no cheese); vegetable rice pilaf; roasted or grilled root vegetables with rosemary, lemon, and garlic; baked fennel (you can put out parmesean cheese for those folks who eat it); Medeterranian lentil salad; vegetarian chili. . .it’s not like there are only two vegetables in the world and no starches anywhere. It’s doable. I promise!

  123. Jill:
    Well, no.Meat-eaters still eat non-meat food — as far as I know, there are not dietary restrictions that involve eating only animal flesh.You would be hard-pressed to find a meat-eater who eats only meat and absolutely no non-meat products.On the other hand, vegetarians cannot or for ethical reasons will not eat meat.A non-meat meal can be eaten by everyone.A meat-based meal cannot.That’s what makes it different.  

    I’m a carnivore, for health reasons. It’s pretty rare where I live in southern Canada, but I expect it’s pretty common up in Iqaluit. If I have to cheat (which I often have to do due to poverty), I’m best cheating with foods that are high in sugar and fat, but really need to stay away from milk and from foods high in starch and fibre. Pretty much all vegetable foods give me indigestion, and it can be extremely painful. Not to mention that diarrhea in someone else’s washroom (especially at a party) is not very pleasant. Even with meat it can be tricky. For example, I need to stay away from low-fat meats like shrimp, as I found out the hard way visiting a relative in another city recently.

    I went to a vegetarian wedding once, and it was a total blast except for the food. It was out in the country and, since I didn’t have a car, someone else gave me a ride. That meant leaving town mid to late morning and not returning until after midnight. I ate a big breakfast and crossed my fingers. (I considered packing a lunch but thought that would be rude.) Unfortunately almost everything they served was extremely starchy. I had a bit of the carrot cake and just toughed it out. It was really hard though, because I did get very hungry, which kind of spoiled the second half of the day for me. If I’d had my own car I could have driven into the nearest town and bought something, or even just left early, but I didn’t. So what could I do?

  124. Aside from dietary issues that might make eating roughage difficult, all I hear when people complain about meat not being available at weddings is, “WAH. wah.” Sorry that you don’t think you’re eating lasagna, but you are.

    And the people who seem to think that providing meat is the same as providing a vegetarian dish: that’s ridiculous. I will not eat your chicken. You can eat my portabella mushroom pasta primavera. I don’t expect you to provide a veggie dish at your wedding; I’ll eat the vegetables and bread and dance my ass off anyway. In exchange, don’t expect me to provide meat at mine, because my partner and I don’t eat it. (And Miss S, it’s neither a cultural nor a religous belief, but when did that become the litmus test for belief systems/lifestyle choices that count?)

    I’m going to do what I can to facilitate a kickass time at my wedding, and it probably won’t involve meat. I’ll get shit from my brothers and from my parents, but they can deal with it for a day while they watch their sister/daughter get fucking married to the dude she’s in love with and celebrate with us. Beause, again, “WAH wah.”

    A sidenote: My mother is amazingly hilarious on the issue. When I told her I had stopped eating meat, she said, “I’m just really SAD for you. Someday you’re going to really want to eat a brat and you won’t be able to!” She thinks that once you stop eating meat, if you eat it again, YOU DIE!

    On the BBQ: I bring food I know I will eat to pot luck BBQs, and I WILL politely ask you if your potato salad is vegetarian. I won’t be a dick about it if it’s not.

    I’m intrigued by the disposable grill idea. I’ve never seen one. I’m buying a grill for my boyfriend for our anniversary; I think that we’ll figure that creating less waste is more important than having a meat free grill, but neither of us would get ill from eating food that was grilled on the same surface as meat. If you’ve been a vegetarian for more than 7 years, that’s a significant risk.

  125. Jill: I’m not sure that a human being can survive for very long by eating only meat and absolutely no grains, vegetables, dairy products, etc. So your hypothetical is interesting, but I’m not sure it’s actually realistic.

    You can actually live pretty well on a pure meat diet. The traditional diet of most far north groups like the inuit is almost entirely meat. Wikipieda says under [[scurvy]] “Vilhjalmur Stefansson, an arctic explorer who lived among the Eskimos, proved that the all meat diet they consumed did not lead to vitamin deficiencies. He participated in a study in New York’s Bellevue Hospital in 1935, where he and a companion ate nothing but meat for a year while under close medical observation, yet remained in good health.” citing http://www.biblelife.org/stefansson3.htm

  126. Kaz: “We should be allowed to kill disabled infants after they are born” Peter Singer? If it’s that one, I rather wished LESS people read Peter Singer, veggies or no.

    Kaz, I’m not sure if you’ve read peter singer’s own views on infanticide. I find them pretty reasonable.

    Of course, I also accept his argument that we should be giving a large fraction of our incomes to to international development organizations, so we may be unlikely to see eye to eye here.

  127. Niall, your snottiness is showing. A disposable grill is a waste. I don’t have the “privilege” of being able to used a grill one time and then throw it away.

    Give the sanctimony a rest. Yeesh.

  128. BTW, a portable “Smokey Joe” grill is $29.99 at Amazon. A disposable grill is $25.00 at Wal-Mart. Did you ever think of that? Huh? Well? I’m waiting! Are you now ready to concede THAT I AM A BETTER PERSON THAN YOU, Privilege McEntitledson?

    /snark

  129. Jeff Kaufman: I find them utterly, bone-deeply, chilling. From that link you dropped? “Nevertheless the main point is clear: killing a disabled infant is not morally equivalent to killing a person.” Can you seriously say you find that statement “pretty reasonable”? The fact that he feels infants less than one month old should be considered “replaceable” and therefore killable? All his other posturing about the “inner life” of a PwD, as if he somehow has access to actual knowledge about it?

    His basic premise is that disabled infants are not people. Though he skates around it a very little, he also seems to find the criterion of capacity for independent living as a useful criterion when deciding when older humans aren’t people also. I’m horrified and disgusted to find his writings on the subject endorsed by any Feministe commenter.

  130. tinfoil hattie: Niall, your snottiness is showing. A disposable grill is a waste. I don’t have the “privilege” of being able to used a grill one time and then throw it away.

    It’s nice that you have the kind of garden (back yard?) – the kind of permanent outdoor space you own where you can afford to have a permanent BBQ, and so can afford to dismiss people who don’t have that as “wasteful”.

    Give the sanctimony a rest. Yeesh.

    Permanent BBQ calls disposable BBQ black, I guess.

    BTW, a portable “Smokey Joe” grill is $29.99 at Amazon. A disposable grill is $25.00 at Wal-Mart. Did you ever think of that? Huh? Well? I’m waiting! Are you now ready to concede THAT I AM A BETTER PERSON THAN YOU, Privilege McEntitledson?

    Actually, I think the situation is simply that disposable BBQ trays are obviously much more expensive in the US than they are in the UK – land of tiny gardens and bad weather. A swift search on the Internet discovered that disposable trays range in price for £4.80 for 6 trays plus p&p (ebay) to 4 for £9 at B&Q to what looks like a larger version at £5.10 each at tools-for-the-garden.

    I suggested disposable BBQs as a solution for the vegan-friendly host because in the UK, this is a simple, cheap solution that avoids a host either asking a guest to a party at which they go hungry, or poisoning a guest with meat fat on their vegan burger. Someone else suggested tinfoil on the grill tray, and this sounds like a cheaper solution in the US, if disposable trays are that much more expensive or if you feel an ecological concern over buying a foil tray and some charcoal with the intent of throwing it away once used.

  131. There is one key difference between an infant and an adult: the infant cannot make a decision for suicide or voluntary euthanasia.

    The Groningen Protocol must be instigated by the infant’s parents, not the physician: and deaths caused by the physician under the Groningen Protocol must be reported in full to the authorities, who do not guarantee they will not prosecute. There are three groups of infants to which the Groningen Protocol applies:

    Group 1 consists of newborns with no chance of survival. Typically, they have a fatal disease such as severe lung or kidney hypoplasia, and they are put on life support immediately after birth while their physicians determine the extent of the damage. While “in some cases they can be kept alive for a short period of time, . . . when the futility of the treatment is apparent, the ventilatory support is removed so that the child can die in the arms of the mother or father.

    Group 2 consists of infants who “may survive after a period of intensive treatment, but expectations regarding their future condition are very grim.” They include infants with severe brain abnormalities or extensive organ damage caused by lack of oxygen. The dilemma here is whether these infants are so badly off that they should be allowed to die. In the Netherlands and in most parts of Europe, doctors agree that not only survival but also the quality of the life is important in deciding whether to withhold or withdraw treatment. In the United Kingdom, the Nuffield Council on Bioethics recently wrote, “It would not be in the baby’s best interests to insist on the imposition or continuance of treatment to prolong the life of the baby when doing so imposes an intolerable burden on him or her.” In the United States, too, there is a consensus regarding the permissibility of withholding or withdrawing life support for babies in this category.

    The third group of infants is the one which Dutch people find most controversial: the Dutch acceptance of assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia is predicted on the patient being an adult who is able to decide they wish to die and to ask for that assistance. This group is:

    babies with an extremely poor prognosis “who do not depend on technology for physiologic stability and whose suffering is severe, sustained, and cannot be alleviated.”These are infants who are not and have not been dependent on intensive medical treatment and who, with proper care, can in some cases survive many years, even into adulthood. They have serious conditions that cannot be treated but cause terrible suffering, such as epidermolysis bullosa, which in severe cases produces large, painful, fluidfilled blisters and continual scarring that fuses the fingers and toes and leads to feeding and swallowing difficulties.

    I don’t know whether it’s right to end the life of a newborn baby who is suffering permanent excruciating pain and who is so braindamaged that they will never be able to communicate or be communicated with beyond the infant’s experience of never-ending pain.

    I really don’t. I just also think that if I were a parent, and knew that my baby was going to experience of life of never-ending pain and nothing else, I would wonder whether it was right to say, no, keep this baby alive for as long as possible.

    Parents do make decisions to end an infant’s life. Sometimes by only a few hours, as when the baby is taken off life-support and allowed to die in the parents’s arms. Sometimes by days or weeks. Is it always wrong? It would make me as uncomfortable to make a sweeping judgement about all parents of all babies in all three of the groups to which this Protocol applies, as it would to make a sweeping judgement about late-term abortion.

  132. I definitely wouldn’t serve meat at my wedding if my husband would be a vegetarian. Instead, I’d prove to all of my guest that you can serve a mind-blowing delicious meal without using meat.

    If my hubby is a meat-eater, I’d make sure the menu would consist for 90% out of yummy vegetarian things 🙂

  133. Elisa: I definitely wouldn’t serve meat at my wedding if my husband would be a vegetarian. Instead, I’d prove to all of my guest that you can serve a mind-blowing delicious meal without using meat.If my hubby is a meat-eater, I’d make sure the menu would consist for 90% out of yummy vegetarian things 🙂  

    One of the things I find interesting about this comment thread is how normative eating meat still is…(i.e. a dinner with meat is ‘dinner’, a dinner without is ‘vegetarian dinner’). As several commenters pointed out, many foods that most meat-eaters routinely enjoy contain no meat. The mistake in the wedding menu many not be what it contains, but how it’s marketed…

    I think, unless I were giving my guests a checklist of options, I wouldn’t bother saying that the food would be meaty food, vegetarian food, or vegan food. I would serve dishes that I thought most people would enjoy and that I enjoy, and call it ‘food.’ I guess I’m also a bit lost on why this is an issue. Friends of mine recently had a vegetarian wedding, and we were just discussing this very point. Funny that it came up in the Times.

    That said, I would probably make sure that if I served meat there were vegetarian options available, on the largest common denominator principle (most meat-eaters can and do eat veg). I would be delighted for people with special needs to alert me to them, so that I could either cater to them or let them know it won’t be possible, on the assumption that either action would be appreciated.

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