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On identifying identities

So, for everyone who doesn’t know, I am a teenager. (Hey! If anyone is inclined to make comments that reference that fact, know that they will be deleted with no small amount of flourish and satisfaction if they do not take into account certain things.) As such, and as you may have noticed, I am somewhat concerned with such teenagerish preoccupations as the shaping of identity. I want to talk about the significance of the teenager’s social place during this time of coming into one’s own, and how that process is thereby affected.

I want to talk about the ways in which identities are denied.

It’s what happens when non-monoracial people are told they are really this, that or the other, rather than really being whoever they think of themselves as. It happens every time queer people are told their sexuality is a lifestyle choice. It happens when people are told they are faking being disabled. It happens when trans women are told they are really men – oh, all the time.

It takes some kind of extraordinary arrogance to declare an identity for someone else. This is an attitude that says, ‘My perceptions are more important than your lived experience.’ ‘My comfort in my ability to correctly assess people overrides the truth.’ It is extraordinary what lengths humans will go to in order to make the world in line with their screwy ideas about the people in it. As for ‘the truth,’ that’s the thing. The truth is that someone’s identity is whatever they hold it to be. Asserting your idea of what a person is over theirs says that it’s okay for everyone to weigh in on and locate and decide it as an objective truth. And almost inevitably it’s an “impartial” outside observer who has the right idea, and they locate the truth of someone’s identity quite outside the grasp of the individual concerned. There is no good reason why your ideas about what a person is like, or what people with an identity are like, should trump the experience and history and, you know, understanding of their own being, of the person with said identity, no reason at all. Forcing your ideas about what a person is onto them is presumptuous and bizarre; how on earth do you think you know better about a person and their life than they do?

People are that which they understand themselves to be; one ought to respect that a person is what they say they are, accept that and move on from the urge to police. There is not some other real identity buried back there that you can grasp hold of irrespective of what the person concerned says. You cannot fix an identity or change it or correct it, it just is – and trying to do so is particularly problematic in terms of marginalised identities, because that’s a continuation of what the whole world is making a good go of. Trying is undermining not just someone’s experience within the world, but something of their being. It takes some kind of bizarre embarrassment or self-assurance – or higher social placement – to continue to insist on referring and relating to a person incorrectly once they’ve told you otherwise.

The denial and enforcement of identities functions in a unique way for younger people. To limit this to teenagers for the moment, this is a time during which one is reevaluating and changing and shaping and trying on identities. It’s a delicate and extremely sensitive process. Interrupting that, trying to force that, can be extraordinarily damaging. And when those identities tie in with social oppression, there’s a whole new level to negotiate and trying to alter the identity is that much worse. I’m hearing more and more from teenagers who are told they’re too young to be disabled because they have their whole lives ahead of them and you surely can’t be in that much pain and you haven’t lived long enough to give up on life (which tells you a thing or two about what disability means to these people). Infotainment TV, in these parts at any rate, regularly features stories about trans teenagers asserting that they need therapy and are confused by this modern world and can’t know if they’re really trans yet, they’re oh so young! There are seemingly endless stories about teenagers who are told that they can’t really be gay, because, well, dear, you’ve never had a sexual experience with someone of the same sex, it’s just a phase, you’re too young to know what you’re talking about. And again and again and again the narrative repeats itself.

What is it about youth that supposedly invalidates experience? No matter how long you’ve lived in the world, you’ve experience of your own being and your being in the world. That’s experience no one else can possibly have. In order to build on and validate and explore that experience, teens need whatever advice and comfort and kindness we care to have. In going through the sensitive and overwhelming processes that make up the development and revealing of identities, teens should be allowed to do so peacefully and with support.

You haven’t got a whole lot of tools to combat this kind of identity pressure when you’ve had little time in the world, a limited number of connections and you’re meant to be able to trust the people telling you this rubbish, all the while you’re still sorting things out inside. Teenagers are an extremely vulnerable group, often lacking sufficient (emotional, financial) support outside family, which can be pretty bad when your homophobic parents turns on you and you’ve nowhere to go.

Teenagerhood should be a time of dreams and expansion. We should be allowed to open our inner selves up and absorb as much light and life as we possibly can. We should be, but other people are often too often invested in what they think we should be to let us be what we are.

In order to accept people as people, you have to accept what makes a person a particular person. I think you’ve got to ask what makes it so important for you to have control over someone’s identity. You’ve got to ask why your sense of control over what’s what is so important as to invalidate that person’s autonomy. Reassuring yourself that the world is a certain way, that those around you are a certain way: it’s just not worth it where as a consequence someone’s being dissolves under them – where they themselves are dissolved. That’s what’s important here, not your relatively unimportant wish to assert your own worldview.

Trust people to identify their own identities.

[Sort of cross-posted at Zero at the Bone]


53 thoughts on On identifying identities

  1. I agree with your insight, and as someone who is nearly 30 himself, looking back over the past decade or so I recognize the steps I’ve made over time. If I have the tendency to be patronizing and assert that I know teenagers better than they know themselves, it is merely a response to a good bit of discomfort.

    When I was a teenager, my life was confusing and constantly shape-shifting. I am now on firmer ground and glad for it. When I observe those younger than me talking, I sometimes wince because I recognize all of the lessons that life teaches over time and how in a younger incarnation, I had no clue of what life was going to set before me. But I do make a point to try to encourage those who are younger without being condescending, recognizing well that everyone’s identity is unique and no one size fits all approach is fair or even effective.

  2. As someone else who is also almost 30, I have to agree with Comrade Kevin. I know when I was a teenager I didn’t know a lot of things about the world or even myself but those things come with time. However, my identity was starting to form in my teenage years and hasn’t changed much since then. What I did learn was more about my environment and people rather than myself and my identity.

    I don’t know why people think teenagers don’t know themselves. I think that’s more due to denial than anything. Teenagers don’t know everything about the adult world but neither do adults. I think maybe the belief that teenagers are inexperienced might generalize to people’s feelings that they are too young to know themselves or have insight into the world. Chally, you seem to have more insight than the average teenager. As for average teenagers, I don’t think that renders them undeserving of respecting who they say they are.

  3. It’s great to know that Feministe writers include someone (you) who can analyze and comment on issues from the perspective of a teenager (along with the other perspectives you bring to the table). The teen perspective isn’t one I often hear, which frankly sucks because I think teens (and people under the age of legal majority in general) see and hear and understand things that other age groups often miss. Hooray for having many perspectives eloquently expounded and conveniently collected in one location!

  4. Vic, I appreciate the compliment, however I’m not convinced that I do have more insight than the average teenager, though maybe more than common perceptions of the average teenager!

    Thanks for your comments, folks. 🙂

  5. One of the problems I had with being a teen & trying to find myself was dealing with authority figures – these people, older and more experienced than I, telling me what was going on in my head & body.
    And they had authority in some form. So if I disagreed or resisted or fought back, I faced retaliation. And that retaliation could be anything from public humiliation, detention, suspension, grounding, loss of transportation, loss of job, loss of financial support, to violence.

    So you’re starting to – I was trying to – figure things out, what I want, who I am, and people more powerful than I stood before me. It would be a few more years for the playing field to be leveled, but even then I’m still not as far along as they.

    I think I read or I heard somewhere that people don’t treat their own peers with the same amount of disrespect that they treat their own children with.
    I just wish I’d read or heard that sooner.

  6. I’m sure I’ve missed some points, but I do agree that people aught to be free to identify themselves as they see fit, and others need to respect that. This sort of awareness would require people to openly assert their identity and not make assumptions concerning others. I know some groups do make special points to have people identify themselves, ex ” i am a heterosexual female” or ” I identify as male”, before further introductions as assumptions concerning gender, sexuality and age are not to be made. The major critique of that self-identity method is that it can become tedious….

    But to the larger point, one that I don’t believe gets enough serious discussion, is American society’s perception of young people (specifically ages 13-19). I’m only a couple years out of high-school and i can strongly connect to the frustration and indignation Chally is expressing. I don’t feel that I am engaging in hyperbole when I say that the teen demographic is one of the most under-recognized highly discriminated groups in America (of course under the label of “teen” you have all sorts of variants, by sexuality, gender, race, religion etc.)

    Frankly, high schools are run like prisons…. youths are denied free speech, privacy, dignity, (still asking permission to go to bathroom…ugh), to large extent the choice to even be there. These issues and many more exist outside of the school realm as well (publicly condescended, denied services, general restrictions)

    It seems that the root problem to youths not being seen as full citizens and thus given those rights, is due to the perception that people are the property of their parents until 18. The hierarchy starts at home. I would actively support legislation that granted FULL rights to young adults by the age 13 (at least). No parental notifications necessary, no more age-based job discrimination, no asking permission for birth control or condoms, no more denial of voting rights. Not only would this be a more just system, but it would also provide a new wave of creativity, productivity, and intellect to society.

    In various parts of the world teens are occupying there high schools, holding sit-ins and student led classes. Throughout history young people have led armies, have led nations, led politics, composed beloved music and novels.

    Lesson: don’t discredit or underestimate the emotional and intellectual capabilities of a person based on there age.

  7. Ughh, I’m 20 and I still feel like a child. I was never rebellious as a teenager and I never questioned authority. From the ages of 13 to 18 I basically walked around like a zombie, due to my crippling depression and anxiety. I never had friends or boyfriends. I woke up, went to school, did what the teachers told me, came home and did what my parents told me. I didn’t really care about what I wanted or who I was. When I hear other kids younger than me talk, I feel jealous because I missed that whole period of self-discovery. Now I’m in college, looking at grad schools and I still don’t know who I am. I think if I had paid attention sooner, I would have been a punk. Unfortunately I’m soon entering the professional world and can’t really act on those punk urges. (I direly want to pierce my lip)

  8. Again I have to recommend belledame222’s post on objectification, here, because also addresses this denial of experience, the denial of thoughts and opinions and preferences and knowledge.

    And that’s what it is, really: turning someone else into an object for your own purposes, to prove a point or to comfort your insecurities.

    This can be interpersonal (as in the regular, cut-by-cut denial-of-self that I experienced growing up from my family) or it can be intracommunity (as in the friends and family and teachers and authority figures who insist that you couldn’t possibly contain trustworthy knowledge of yourself) or it can be sociopolitical (the way women are told their pain must be imagined or exaggerated, trans folk told they are “really” another gender, and other people told some other form of no, you don’t like vanilla, you want the chocolate).

    And it’s a serious form of abuse, no matter how close or distant the source of denial.

  9. And I know this isn’t awfully popular, but I really don’t think we, as teens or young adults, don’t understand how the world works. I think we understand the world perfectly well and draw conclusions based on the boundaries of our experience. And no person’s boundaries encompass the entire world — and those boundaries will shift and change, move about, expand or contract, as they move throughout life.

    Yes, you may have a different understanding of the world as an older person. But that doesn’t mean that you didn’t have a good understanding of your world when you were younger. You knew your own world perfectly damn fine. Your conclusions change as the information input changes, yes, but that doesn’t make it a better understanding or a more correct one.

    Because here’s the thing — you still have limited sights. As you move away from one experience, you disconnect from it, and thus weight it differently than you weight your current experience. That leads to different conclusions. But it’s rather like saying, “4 plus 5 equals 9, so 5 plus 2 does not equal 7.”

    I have a different understanding of the world now than I did five years ago, and in five years I will have a different understanding of the world than I do now. That doesn’t mean I was wrong, or am wrong, or will be wrong then (because that understanding will change five years from then, too). I had a good grasp of the world I was operating in. Just like I do now. Just like I will then.

    It’s not a simple linear accumulation of information, and equal availability of all information over all time, and equal weighting of all information over all time. Otherwise why would we ever give a shit what anybody but the oldest person in the world has to say? And even that person will not have the experience of a person of a different racial background, geographical residence, cultural upbringing, etc.

    We all have limits to our knowledge – I think acknowledgement of this fact is essential to understanding any social justice framework.

  10. o.O I was unaware that was another Haley here. I was rather surprised to see my name. I shall now be known as Haley K.

    I’m a teenager, but I’m 18 so I’m also an adult I guess. I’m also a woman with a hidden disability. Worse still, a woman with a hidden disability that is largely psychological/neurological with added chronic illness. (I say this is worse, of course, not from an objective standpoint of suffering, but perception when it comes denying the existence of a disability. Its pretty hard to tell someone in a wheelchair that their disability is all in their head and that if they just ate more vegetables and exercised, they would magically be all better. Although I’m sure it happens all the time anyway.)
    Because of the neurological aspects, I haven’t been able to do PE since maybe 3rd grade. Since I don’t look disabled, people always thought I was making it up to get out of PE, or said I was “lucky”. I was sick a lot, and missed TONS of school, and people assumed I was just another kid faking sick with a gullible mom who defended me. Teachers told me this to my face all the fucking time, and I had to fight hard to prove my disability just so I could get some slack when I missed a week of school and was overwhelmed with work. Every single year I’ve been told that eventually I’ll have to grow up and stop asking for help.

    Even when I would break down and tell my teachers or other nosy people who demanded to know exactly what was wrong with me, I would be denied. Did you know a large percentage of the population does not believe in ADD or depression? People generally believe in tourette’s syndrome, but doubt that I have it since I don’t scream expletives. And you know what? If I tell you I have OCD you do not have the right to ask my specific compulsions.

    And then there are the lovely people who tell me I shouldn’t take medications to help me function. “You know, if you just stopped taking all those dangerous drugs, you wouldn’t need to sleep and rest so much. Plus you need to put on a few pounds and it suppressed your appetite! Just trust me on this. It will make you all better if you would just go completely natural. Your body would heal itself!”

    Please. Let me be my own person. Maybe I know what’s best for me, what I can and can’t do, better than you do.

  11. Thank you for writing this. As a teenager myself, I certainly can relate to what you’ve written. Granted, I don’t know everything about the world and how it works (I don’t think I ever will), but I do know about my identity, more or less. I suppose I’m very lucky to have the parents that I was born with; they are very supportive and take what I say and feel seriously. For example, my mom’s reaction to me telling her about my mental health problems was not “Oh you silly dramatic teenager, with your silly dramatic feelings, you’re just being silly and dramatic,” it was “Thank you for sharing, we’ll get you the treatment you want, and you can make your own decisions about what that will be.” But despite my good experiences, I have other adults in my life how aren’t quite so understanding, and I know many people my age whose parents write off everything they do as a “phase.” Personally, I don’t think that just because I feeling isn’t permanent doesn’t make it less real, but that’s beside the point.

    Some adults really don’t want to recognize that teenagers are not children. We may not be adults, but we are certainly forming the identities that will be who we are when we actually do reach adulthood. Writing those identities off is insulting and damaging.

    Thank you for writing this, Chally. You have an eloquent voice, and you speak well for our generation.

  12. 🙂

    Whoa hey, you don’t have to change it; besides we have different spelling. 🙂 I’ve also copped a lot, a lot, of rubbish for being a young person with a disability, so I get you and am sorry you’ve had those experiences.

  13. I was referring to the Haley at number 7 and 8. 🙂 Is Chally really pronounced as Hay-lee? As Chay-lee? I imagined it as Chall-ee.

  14. I’m a highschool teacher so spend a fair bit more time with teenagers than a lot of people my age. And I have to say that it has been an ongoing process, for me, to find the line between asserting authority as it is necessary within the traditional school environment and respecting the individuality of students. I’m sure I didn’t always get it right (or right enough, within a flawed system) but I don’t think I got it as wrong as some colleagues. Many schools are built around an ‘ethos’ of conformity so not only are teens’ ability to judge their identities for themselves questioned, but emerging identities outside the ‘ethos’ are actively squashed. I have witnessed this often and it’s not pretty.
    Sometimes a rights and responsibities approach seems the logical one (you have the right to an eyebrow ring when you can take responsibility for avoiding infection and understand and accept attendant changes in how others may perceive you – to use a petty example) but this only takes it so far. Parents, teachers, society share responsibilty for the welfare of young trans people – we cannot say to them ‘you choose to assert your identity in this way, and that’s fine, so long as YOU take responsibility for it.’ rather, young people are so often dependent on adults to support their identity – for legal or economic or social reasons – and so the power of adults who refuse to accept a teenager’s choices about hirself and hir identity can be wielded to deadly effect. Which is why what you’re saying is so very important Chally. Keep saying it loudly!

  15. I really appreciate what you have said here, and I have often lamented that there are too few teenage voices in the dialogues I encounter online. There are a few, but not all that many, and it upsets me that I am sure there are far more than are identifying out of fear of exactly the sort of discrimination you describe here.

    So many critical parts of my own identity were established when I was “too young” to “know.” I knew I was childfree when I was SIX (and people still don’t believe me now that I’m 32), and decided I was ready to have sex at fourteen, and managed my own birth control from then on, without bringing my parents into it. I knew I was bisexual from about 16. I chose my sexual partners for my own pleasure, sometimes more than one at a time, and this made me happy rather than diminishing me. I discovered I was kinky. I discovered I was ragingly pro-choice. I helped Catholic schoolgirls obtain family planning services, because nobody else was helping them. I had never been Christian, but I started my own spiritual path when I was 16, rather than allowing that part of my identity to consist of a refutation/negative and nothing more, and I learned a lot. I discovered I was liberal in many ways considered distasteful where and how I grew up. I chose to stop going to school and not pursue “higher” education, because school made me miserable. I married one month after my eighteenth birthday.

    And all of those things, those things that are cornerstones of my being or which arose from them, are things that adults met with “Tsk-tsk”-ing and head shaking, and to which they said “You are not old enough to do that, to know that, to have that power.” That’s if I had the nerve to tell them about it at all, which I usually didn’t because I was well aware of what would have happened. Retaliation, like K said.

    I swore I would never forget how offensive and insulting it was to live like that, and have tried to stick by that ever since.

    And this is just my personal experience, but I will point out that for all the adults claiming that teenagers are silly and overdramatic and blah blah blah, the emotions I felt as a teenager WERE much more powerful than the way I feel about things of similar long-term importance now. And that’s not a negative thing about teenagers. That’s a positive that demands but does not get respect from adults. Teenagers feel all the ups and downs of their lives quite acutely, and they often feel them in different ways than adults do, and it’s not something frivolous or unimportant. It’s incredibly important to the process of refining yourself, and it deserves respect. A person’s identity should be shaped by their feelings and experience, not by others’ denial of those feelings and experiences.

    I believe that there are benefits to being an adult that genuinely do only come with time, but I also think that there are things we inevitably lose as we age that are beneficial as well. I think the fact that the main reason I like being an adult is because people no longer treat me like a child or a teenager is rather telling about how our culture views people who are not adults.

  16. What you write about here is my biggest, let’s call it a pet peeve, when it comes to inequality. I was very pleased to read it.

    Discussing sexism or racism or what-have-you, the “I am justified in treating you like this because people ‘like you’ are (fill in the blank” conversation so often comes up. Here, the assumption of course is that when you are talking to someone who is part of an out-group in relation to yourself, they are naturally a representative of a homogeneous, monolithic identity.

    Now, the problem as I see it arises from this fact: certain groups do share similar characteristics, and that’s okay. It’s okay to discuss them. They exist. Hiding from the truth, even when it’s ugly, gets us nowhere. However, I’ve found that some people have a strange need not just to discuss stereotypical behavior, but to ENFORCE it.

    Given that this is Femeniste, I’ll provide the example of discussions of sex and gender. When someone makes a statement like “men have high sex drives,” a man who is asexual has to step back and say, “Well, all right, but that’s not me. That statement is a generalization that people make because they HAVE to. Generalizations are necessary to our understanding.” (However, I will also posit that constantly hearing that “men are such and such” and thinking “but I’M not” can have a negative effect on someone even if he does recognize that the stereotype doesn’t have to apply to him).

    If this were all, a man could get over it easily enough. But this is NOT all. People go further. Men have high sex drives, therefore asexual men do not exist. In other words, someone is saying to him, “You are wrong about your feelings. This is what a man is, therefore it is what you are.” He is rendered invisible, invalid. It is as though we feel a need to ENFORCE what we know about “all” men upon each individual. It is here that the stereotype becomes dangerous, and if you are on the receiving end, deeply frustrating.

    And of course there are numerous examples for women as well. “I’m justified in treating you as an inferior because all women expect male protection” is one I hear pretty frequently. And yet, many independent women I have met do NOT expect this from men. In fact, they have had to face the same challenges as many men, even with their (generally speaking) greater physical weakness. They recognize that the same weakness makes them more vulnerable than their male counterparts, and yet they consider the independence worth the risk. But of course this doesn’t matter to someone who doesn’t believe that it’s possible for an individual to deviate from what is common within their group.

    Now, I don’t mind stereotypes. Again, they’re how we understand the world. But my policy is this: I wait for someone to talk before I assume anything about them, when I have the chance. And why not? Because someone is black, I’m going to assume that he conforms to every black stereotype? Because someone is a woman, if she has a sex drive incompatible with what I perceive to be the norm, there is something “wrong” with her?

    I think not. I doubt there is a single person alive who conforms to every stereotype of their “groups,” and so I’m certain there are many, many people who are frustrated when they are told “I know you think you feel this way, but I’m going to tell you how you really think and feel.”

  17. This may not be popular, but I’m going to throw a caveat in here. No one from a privileged group has the right to tell someone that they do or do not have an identity; however, in some cases, members of an oppressed group should and must have this right.

    I can think of several examples (many involving LGBTQ issues, or rather, “BTQ” issues), but here’s one of the more outrageous ones:

    In the 60s and 70s, quite a few white feminists were claiming they were actually Native American, b/c they believed they had been Native American in a “past life.” So even though they were (as far as they knew) of 100% white genetic lineage, had full white privilege, and had been raised in a white environment, they would crash Native American women’s groups That cannot happen; there comes a point at which they should have been able to say, “Hey, you know what? You’re white.” (I *think*, although I’m not 100% sure, what happened was that the groups started specifying ‘Native American in this life’).

    The same thing, I think, should be true of cis women “declaring” whether or not trans women are women, or of people of X race saying “I’m one sixty-fourth Cherokee, so I’m Native American,” etc.

    There is a point at which there must be boundaries, or identity becomes worthless.

  18. Yep Willow, I certainly agree that there are certain circumstances under which members of an oppressed group ought to be able to determine what constitutes membership. However, the post was in particular talking about how members of privileged groups might police the identities of oppressed people. But that’s definitely a discussion worthy of a space of its own another time. 🙂

  19. I’m sure this has already been said (too lazy this morning to read comments), but there is one big difference between youth identity and other idendities: by definition everyone who is an adult has been a youth before. So people *think* they know better than you, and don’t think it’s as bad as if it were a man telling a woman what’s good for her, or a white telling a minority what’s good for them. To this day (I’m in my mid 20s) my parents (and older people in general) still tell me what’s best for me and have trouble letting me make my own choices. I think people genuinely think they’re helping because they assume everyone’s experience must be EXACTLY as it was for them at our ages.

    It never ends. Be prepared.

  20. Chally~

    Yup, the examples you gave were right on ^_^ –hence me having to provide my own–but I just wanted to clarify. As I said, ‘caveat’. “Higher social placement” is a little ambiguous.

  21. Ageism is hilarious. Old people have fucked the world up nearly beyond all recognition, but somehow it’s teenagers and 20-somethings who pose all the dangers to society?

  22. I had the opposite experience of Naamah @ 19: it wasn’t till…oh, the past two years (and I’m in my mid-20s) that I’ve come out as anything. I feel like I’ve missed the boat, or something.

    Your teenage years are “supposed” to be formative. Other queer people have all these stories where they Just Knew, or what with adolescent hormones realised they were attracted to whoever, etc. I didn’t have that. I was insecure and full of doubt and socially awkward (well, still am) and, like many teenagers, didn’t have a lot of independence to go out and explore. And so I kind of believed myself to be whatever people assumed me to be. “Normal”.

    If I encountered someone like my teenage self, I hope I would have the integrity to trust hir, and not police hir identity, and not assume things—and if ze hasn’t got it all figured out, not put it down to hir being too young to know.

  23. This is such a righteous post. I am not a teenager (barely! I guess I’m a 20something now), but my earliest memories are of feelings of frustration at having my feelings and opinions denigrated by adults. I remember saying stuff as a very young child that was very serious to me and having my mother laugh and force me to repeat it in front of her friends so they could all laugh and I would cry and throw fits. Not saying 3-year-olds should have full rights or anything – and I’m sure I said some weird stuff – but I do hope that if I (god forbid) have children, I will allow them a bit more dignity. I was in academic and disciplinary trouble constantly until about the age of 17; you’re expressing so well what to me was just wordless rage that manifested in my extreme behavior problems, particularly as a teenager.

  24. This may not be popular, but I’m going to throw a caveat in here. No one from a privileged group has the right to tell someone that they do or do not have an identity; however, in some cases, members of an oppressed group should and must have this right.

    Well, the problem with this theory is that to determine who’s a member of an oppressed group (and therefore entitled to police group membership) and who’s a member of a privileged group (and therefore not entitled to police group membership), you need an antecedent theory of who’s in which group. In other words, to decide that American Indian tribes are entitled to determine that I’m not an American Indian, you need to have already decided that I’m not an American Indian. Similarly, to decide that the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival isn’t entitled to police the boundaries of who’s a “woman,” you need to have already decided to label transwomen as members of an oppressed group (transwomen) rather than members of a privileged group (men).

    I think this discussion is also implicitly assuming that “identity” only comprises certain categories (sex/gender, race, disability, class). I think there are all sorts of other identity categories that don’t fit into either the purely subjective “your identity is whatever you self-identity as” or the more nuanced “oppressed groups are entitled to police group membership, but privileged groups are not entitled to police membership in either oppressed groups or their own privileged group.” Catholics aren’t an oppressed group, at least in the U.S., but it seems very odd to say that the Catholic Church has no right to say who’s a Catholic and who’s not. (Of course we can criticize their choices, but that’s a separate issue; it seems bizarre to me to say that someone who’s been excommunicated is really a Catholic because they still view themselves as a true Catholic, even if the church was wrong to excommunicate them.)

    Lawyer jokes aside, lawyers aren’t an oppressed group either, but it also seems odd to say that the state bar associations don’t have the right to say who’s a lawyer and who isn’t, no matter how much someone who doesn’t have a law license may consider themselves to be a “real” lawyer. But the fact that I’m a lawyer is an important part of my identity.

    Basically, I think identity is more complex and nuanced than these accounts are assuming, and that who’s entitled to police membership in various identity categories is similarly more complex.

  25. ‘I think this discussion is also implicitly assuming that “identity” only comprises certain categories (sex/gender, race, disability, class).’

    Well, no. I think I made it clear that this discussion is concerned with the times ‘when those identities tie in with social oppression’.

  26. I agree, mostly, but let me ask you whether, in your view, the same right extends to young, straight, males who identify as men (or as future men) and wish to be manly. Or is being a man the one identity that’s not allowed?

  27. Oh, Alexander, you know, I just don’t allow the existence of young, straight men. I have personally decided that no person is allowed to possess that identity. Being straight? Being male? But especially, especially being young? Those are blights upon humanity. But even worse is the terrible horror that is identifying as a man. Jill! Cara! Fetch me my smelling salts! This gentleman has distressed me with his blatant flaunting of his outrageous identity.

    Which is to say, of course men are allowed to be men, the idea that I might suggest otherwise is totally ridiculous.

  28. I recall how people continually denied me the identity “bisexual”. It was something that really set me back in life, and that I had to eventually fight in order to claim an identity for myself. I really wish that the adults I trusted more had been there to fight for me. People need to realize that telling me that I’m not bisexual didn’t make me straight (or lesbian, as some suggested). It simply made me a transient in life, floating without an identity at all. Nobody deserves that.

  29. Mate, I don’t see how my advocacy of everyone’s right to be who they are is ridiculing your experience seeing as I was defending myself from the idea that I wouldn’t allow men to be men, which seems a really strange conclusion to jump to. If there’s something else going on here, that is, people trying to delegitimise your identity as a man, that’s horrible.

  30. Well, the problem with this theory is that to determine who’s a member of an oppressed group (and therefore entitled to police group membership) and who’s a member of a privileged group (and therefore not entitled to police group membership), you need an antecedent theory of who’s in which group.

    – a lawyer

    Indeed. Sometimes it gets to the point amongst certain leftists where “member of an oppressed group” almost becomes like being a member of the elect amongst the Puritans. The interesting thing is when you have people of relatively privileged backgrounds declaring that they are oppressed and thus entitled to police membership in who’s “the oppressed” whilst denying the narratives of some truly oppressed groups.

    As you point out, the question is who decides who is oppressed. At some level being the decider of “who is oppressed” is itself a privileged position, except many of those who have the power to make this decision about whose identities are valid and whose oppression remains silent and not allowed a narrative don’t realize how privileged they are to even have the liberty to spend time making these distinctions.

  31. Alexander’s first comment is one that I encounter frequently from my male counterparts and I see sort of brewing under the surface. The self-identification of the young white cisgendered male is a legitimate right. I believe it is beneficial to all groups, that we open up the dialogues on identity. The goal is to break down this idea that “whiteness” or “heterosexuality” (as examples) are the default normative. When society defines “normative”, than all people who fit that image are by their very existence, privileged. Whereas, those who vary from that normative are then broken up into “subcategories” and statuses all in relation to that privileged group.

    What I think is problematic, is something that Alexander actually alluded to “…males who identify as men…..and wish to be manly”.
    You have the right to self-identify as a male, the problem is wanting “manliness” as a legit identification group. Its not.

    The frustration and indignation being expressed by many men, I think, boils down to A.) having their privilege called out B.) feeling denied a socially acceptable identity. A solution to this, is to create/support a male identity that does not require the subordination of women in order to be viewed as “manly”.

  32. Chally:

    “The truth is that someone’s identity is whatever they hold it to be. Asserting your idea of what a person is over theirs says that it’s okay for everyone to weigh in on and locate and decide it as an objective truth.”

    Look, I appreciate the sentiment, but this simply cannot be right if the rest of your post is to be taken seriously. It makes the whole post incoherent.

    Clearly, you think (rightfully, as I take it) that imposing another, false identity on a person or attempting to deny someone their identity (or their right to form their identity) is a BAD THING. People shouldn’t do that. It’s WRONG.

    Yet, what if it is part of someone’s identity that their identity requires normatively imposing identities on others? That is, what if their identity requires that OTHER PEOPLE be a certain way. And this isn’t even that crazy. Many, many people have argued that particular kinds of identity (e.g. the evangelical conservative, 1950s were a perfect paradise type person) have normative implications for how people who do not share that identity behave.

    But if that is true, then you cannot BOTH say that imposing an identity on someone is wrong AND that you can be whatever you want to be. At the very least, you must impose the following constraint on people’s identity formation: “You may have any identity you wish, as long as that identity does NOT involve violating other people’s autonomous rights to shape their own identity.”

    It is the same mistake that cultural relativists make. Cultural relativists often same something like this: “Imperialism is deeply wrong. All cultural views must be taken as equally valid.”

    Yet, this is incoherent. If all cultural views are to be taken as equally valid, then cultural imperialism is not wrong for those cultures with intolerant cultural norms. One cannot be a relativist and then CRITICIZE intolerant norms.

    Similarly, one cannot be a relativist about all identities then CRITICIZE those with intolerant identities. We cannot say “It is wrong to impose an identity on a person” and “Everyone’s identity is equally valid or to be equally respected” because some identities require intolerance. In other words, “policing” is necessary if only to enforce the claim that no on should police.

    And I have no problem with that. If an identity requires intolerance, so much the worse for that identity. I agree with your claim that this kind of policing is a pretty bad thing, especially when done by someone with privilege towards those who don’t have it. But because I agree with you on that, I cannot agree with you that all identities must be immune from criticism.

  33. Yet, what if it is part of someone’s identity that their identity requires normatively imposing identities on others? That is, what if their identity requires that OTHER PEOPLE be a certain way.

    … then it isn’t an identity. An identity is something you are.

    This is just so nonsensical as to be laughable.

  34. “Identity is what you are.” I wish it were so simple. But there’s a cloud of identity that contains the hard-and-fixed pieces of identity and the externally imposed identities and the fluidity of self-described identity. Take sexuality, for example. Some pieces are fixed, but some parts of my sexuality have grown and changed over time, and how I express them changes, and how they are received by other people changes. Blackness and Whiteness are not fixed points, either, but each contain something permanent and something changeable. Religion is both permanent and changeable (Judaism, anyone?). I’m constantly renegotiating which parts of my own identity cloud I need other people to recognize (my lover may need to be able to see more of it than the casual person on the street). I don’t assume that other people will always get everything that I am, and I know that I never get all that other people are. So, we give each other space and time, but we have to be willing to forgive and teach as well.

    I push back against those who try to define me and I try to find the difference between “small-o” oppression (personal power), and “big-O” Oppression (systemic power)… but… sometimes things go too far in the other direction, and I get the message that I should be able to guess what identities you carry with you from some kind of spidey-sense. Just as I ask for space from you, in turn, I try not to confine your identity, but there are still a thousand little ways that I might “dis” you unknowingly (to reveal my age by using an old-school slang), because I don’t see all that you are. It can be because I assume you can read, or because I don’t see your depression, or because I assume you were born a woman. I ask your forgiveness when I do these things, but I also ask your awareness that you do these things too.

    I’m horrified at some of the things I did as a teenager, unknowingly trampling others because I was so busy finding out who I was that I couldn’t see other people who were trying to do the same thing. “Be a nonconformist, everybody’s doing it” is kind of the motto of teenagerdom (I had it written on my shoes), and that’s a good thing. But as I reflect on what’s fixed and what’s changed, I hope I can keep the good bits and leave behind some of the judgment.

  35. … then it isn’t an identity. An identity is something you are.

    This is just so nonsensical as to be laughable.

    There is a problem with people mis-defining identity to include this though. Most oppressions rely on it—for X to be exalted, Y must be degraded; for X to be strong, Y must be weak. A definition of manhood that heavily centers around being a provider or leader of his family, for example, limits his wife—if she has a paying job and provides things for the family, he feels slighted or made impotent; if she attempts to assume an equal role in important decision-making, he feels that his authority is being threatened. Both are perceived by him as assaults on his identity, because he has built his identity on foundations of other people, and this limits THEIR identities to supporting his.

    So, yeah. An identity is supposed to be something you are, and it can be informed by what other people are, but it should not be dependent on what other people are. When somebody extends it to be based on other people, that is when problems happen. It’s not “proper” identity, but it does happen.

  36. What I think is problematic, is something that Alexander actually alluded to “…males who identify as men…..and wish to be manly”.
    You have the right to self-identify as a male, the problem is wanting “manliness” as a legit identification group. Its not.

    I think “manly” is a legit identity. Its the male equivelant of femme.

    Wonderful article by the way.

  37. Thank you Amandaw for proving my point. Making objective truth claims about the nature of identities in order to regulate what constitutes a “real identity” is necessary in order to exclude intolerance.

  38. Chally,

    Thanks for writing this. As someone who began attending college at age thirteen, I know what this is like. Because I was able to pass as quite a bit older than my real age, I lied about the situation to my academic peers for a long time, for fear that upon learning my age they would take me less seriously. And that did actually happen when I decided to stop lying about it, but I got through it.

    Anyway, this post goes way beyond that specific issue and tackles an issue of identity that is applicable for everyone. Kudos. Keep on truckin’. Et cetera. 🙂

    A

  39. I wanted to come back and say that I do feel like I wasn’t quite right in my assertion at comment 38. It felt like someone was deliberately stretching the logic as far as possible in an attempt to dismiss the experiences of a marginalized group. But I simplified things and overwrote the complexity of the subject in response and that wasn’t right.

  40. Alexander, I’m really not sure what you’re getting at. No one’s saying being a man is not allowed.

    Let’s move back to the actual topic, please, of teenagers and identity.

  41. I don’t agree with the point raised earlier @11: that because everyone (teens included) have limited experience, we shouldn’t distinguish in any way based on experience.

    We have all been young at some point. And perhaps to some degree our memories of the time are faded or selective or inherently flawed. But most of us have acquired much more experience than have most teens.

    It leads to an interesting question: Most people are not necessarily “as they were” when they were teens, nor “as they wanted to be” or “as they predicted they would be” from when they were teens. Is that evidence that teenagers really aren’t so competent as Chally implies, and/or that it is appropriate to give input to the identity of a teenager in a way that it wouldn’t necessarily be appropriate for an adult? Or is it that so many prior generations of teens have ‘lost’ the identity fight, and that the difference is something to be mourned, not used against them?

    Also, w/r/t identity and imposition on others… Seems we all have the right to true self-determination. That includes, IMO, the right to determine how we will view others irrespective of how they would like us to view them.

    It’s easy to say that you have a right to your identity. Sure you do; we all do. But do you have a right to force John Doe to view you as you want to be viewed, rather than as he wants to view you? What possible basis could you have for such an imposition?

    And on similar lines, are you willing to grant the same respect to people whose identities you dislike, and whose value you oppose? Do you support people’s ability and right to identify as neo-nazi gay haters; Republicans; or macho men? Or is it just a big combination of special pleading and true scotsman fallacies?

    It seems to me that the theory doesn’t really take into account either the reciprocity issue (“bad” identities) or the control issue (claiming self-determination while demanding that others conform to your desires in how they respond to you.)

  42. I don’t think people changing over their lifetimes is evidence of incompetence at a younger age nor reason to try to shape other people’s identities, I think it’s a part of living life and developing as a human being.

    I don’t think it’s an imposition for, say, a queer person to want to be seen as queer rather than John Doe’s viewpoint that they’re going through a phase. It seems to me that it’s John Doe who is being imposing and harmful here. You can’t force someone to view you a particular way, but surely it’s easy to understand how denying someone’s marginalised identity is harmful. And we’re talking about specifically marginalised identities here, as I said at comment 29.

  43. Chally said
    I don’t think people changing over their lifetimes is evidence of incompetence at a younger age nor reason to try to shape other people’s identities, I think it’s a part of living life and developing as a human being.

    And I agree. I’m 30, my identity has changed over the last ten years (ie since I wasn’t a teenager), and it is still changing. That doesn’t mean that anyone else would be a better authority on my identity than I am.

  44. I have long objected to teens being regarded as children, and it feels to me that this is an increasing phenomenon. I don’t think children should be denied their identities either (knowing a number of people who have known critical things about their identities from age 4 or so), but I think this concept of viewing teens as people who need as much protection as children contributes to the kind of thing Chally is talking about. I think there is legitimacy in giving some protection to teens from the consequences of some of their decisions, because there can be moments in teens’ lives when the emotion over-runs the reason*. However, that doesn’t mean that the reason is less-than during the vast majority of times in which emotion is not in control. (And for many teens, this is all the time – not all teens ever have such a moment.)

    *For example, I don’t believe teens should be tried as adults (until at least 18).

  45. Sailormans comments (48):” But do you have a right to force John Doe to view you as you want to be viewed, rather than as he wants to view you? ”

    —My answer is No. You can’t force people (despite all efforts) to view you any way other than how they wish to view you. The Politically Correct movement (which is a sort of liberal safeguard against identity groups who wish to disparage other identities, ) has shown that time and again.

    As a feminist, humanist, (and other ists), I believe that a genuinely free Democratic society, is free to the largest extent possible*. That freedom (the right of autonomy) can/should be extended to all parts of society.

    (38): “And on similar lines, are you willing to grant the same respect to people whose identities you dislike, and whose value you oppose? Do you SUPPORT people’s ability and right to identify as neo-nazi gay haters; Republicans; or macho men?”

    —NO. I will not support them. I’m not going to financially support neo-nazi’s. Nor will I emotionally, politically or socially support any platform or legislation they put forth. But do they have a right in a free Democratic society to identify and exist freely as neo-nazis…..absolutely. I will not infringe upon their autonomy.

    I think its a false argument to say that you have to give the same respect to all identities in order to have the ‘high ground’.** Ethically, either you advocate for the autonomous individual or you do not. I do not respect the values of Neo-Nazis(for example), because they are an identity group whose very foundation, nay, existence, is based on the denial of African American autonomy (among other groups). They actively strive to oppress and inflict harm upon others. It doesn’t take an imagination to say that an ethical person rejects unethical acts and the individuals or institutions who perpetrate or support them.

    * That is to say, your personal freedom ends only at the point in which you actively inflict harm, directly or indirectly upon another individuals or seek to infringe upon the autonomy of others.
    **Opposition is not the same as oppression.

  46. I hear Chally saying something that is, imo, universally true and important for everyone to get: how to listen, understand, empathize, and how to do this instead of the instant judging, dismissing, categorizing we have been taught to do. We are a species that has historically depended on small, tight, unwavering categories, mostly of simple, dual opposition, as in black v. white, good v. bad, smart v. foolish. If you look at these issues through the lens of neuroscience and how the human brain works, you can develop a lot of compassion for humans in their current evolutionary incarnation. We’re seeing the overwhelming, dizzying array of diversity without the hardware or the software to manage all of this information. We really don’t know how to handle our precious categories getting exploded on a daily basis without going stark raving mad.

    Likewise, sticking with what we know (or think we know) about the human brain, neuroscience has lately been telling us that the parts of the brain that assess risk and make decisions are still developing well into a person’s second decade of life. The human brain is now considered “grown” by around age 30. In all humans, whatever their age, the amygdala sends emotion-laden imperatives to the frontal cortex–this superhighway is more developed in humans than its counterpart, namely, circuitry going from the frontal cortex back to the amygdala. It’s kind of like a one-sided conversation in which the amygdala is constantly shouting emotional commands at the cortex, and the cortex can’t get a word in edgewise. In other words, we are all a work in progress, and understanding how our brains work and what we can do to help them grow seems to me to be a pertinent, related issue to this conversation.

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