In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better…

So apparently women can do silly and not-so-silly things and still call themselves feminists. News. Flash.

Yes, you can still call youself a feminist while you take your husband’s name, bake chocolate chip cookies for his office party and use your looks and sexuality to your advantage. Yes, you can call youself a feminist while you profess to enjoy the company of men more than women. Yes, you can call yourself a feminist while you… giggle (I must have missed the NOW meeting where they revoked all the gigglers’ membership cards).

I’m not going to tell you that you can’t use the term feminist even while you do things that are not exactly feminist in and of themselves (says the woman in the heels and make-up who will be spending the whole weekend cooking for her family). However, I will tell you that you’re a little dense if you don’t understand that things like heels and make-up and taking your husband’s name and baking cookies for his office party do not operate in a vacuum. I’m all for frippery and frivolity and cooking and baking and flirting and making yourself happy; I am not for the “I Am a FEMINIST Because I Choose My Choice!” line of reasoning. It is silly and, well, meaningless.

Sharing a family name is a fine and good goal; the fact that women are always the ones to change their names (because of social pressure or because it’s just easier or because we aren’t as attached to our names) is a problem. Clothes, shoes and make-up are pretty and fun; the fact that women as a class as expected to be ornamental and are considered failures (or not quite women) if we don’t live up to a certain standard is a problem. Cookies are delicious; the fact that the task of baking them for the office meeting / school bake-sale / after-school snack / someone else’s holiday party always seems to fall on women is a problem. See?

Also: You can be a feminist and still be sexist. For example, if you go around talking about how you really love the company of men more than women? You have some misogyny issues. I don’t mean that as an attack because I too have some misogyny issues (who doesn’t?). But I am constantly frustrated by women and girls trying to assert how cool they are by emphasizing that they just can’t stand women, and they’re so much more comfortable with their “guy-friends” (I also wish the term “guy-friends” would die a speedy death — if they’re really your friends, just call them that; and if you’re really comfortable with them as friends, you don’t need to emphasize the fact that they’re guys all the damned time). Yes, we all have different interests, and some communities are more male-dominated than others; I have heard, for example, that certain gaming communities are heavily male. That may skew your friendships toward the male end of things, regardless of your gender. This isn’t a flame of male-female friendships, or even of women who really do find they have more in common with men than with other women; it is a critique of the “I love men and hate women” narrative. That narrative could not exist in a gender-egalitarian society.

I get that the point of the article is that feminism shouldn’t focus on purity — you can still be a feminist and do things that seem counterintuitive to feminism. I agree! But emphasizing all the stereotypically feminine things that women can do while still calling themselves feminists only seems to lend credence to the idea that the stereoptical feminist — who is “masculine” and queer and mouthy and not conventionally attractive — is not the kind of woman we want to be. And that’s a problem.


96 thoughts on Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better…

  1. “stereoptical feminist — who is “masculine” and queer and mouthy and not conventionally attractive”

    I guess we have even more reason to worry, we only see their “masculinity,” homely appearance, and their mouths move when we wear red and blue 3D glasses.

  2. You couldn’t really make it far in this world without the “stereotypical feminine” shit. I know I don’t see many women bosses or anyone far up the ladder coming into work without makeup and heels. It’s hard to go against the misogynist grain and survive for many. I do not begrudge any woman who has to/wants to wear makeup and high heels and bake cookies and take a man’s name because the backlash is often far worse than conforming. They can still be feminists. I feel being a feminist lies more in an ability to work towards ending the injustices or being aware of and speaking out against the injustices than not participating in said injustices.

  3. Is a man who talks about how he enjoys the company of women more than men a man hater or labelled as such?

    Misogyny is a strong term – the hatred of women – I think you used the term in a fairly callous manner. I don’t see anything wrong with a man or woman having a preference for socialising with their own or the opposite sex. Idealistically it does make sense but in reality men and women are different, let’s not be ignorant of that.

    At what point do personal preferences become politically charged statements that are reflective of gender roles and stereotypes in society? The distinction is arbitrary is it not?

    1. I don’t see anything wrong with a man or woman having a preference for socialising with their own or the opposite sex. Idealistically it does make sense but in reality men and women are different, let’s not be ignorant of that.

      I didn’t say anything is necessary wrong with the preference. Read. The. Post.

  4. Seconding everything you said, Jill. And I’m impressed with the attempted derail, so early in the comments, on such a slow week.

    Richard, these “preferences” become poltically charged statements when they are used as a way to show how cool you are (or a way to diss other women–I just don’t get along well with other women, they’re so catty, I’m not comfortable with them, they’re so high-maintenance, blah, blah, blah.).

    Yes, I’m sure there are rare exceptions, but if you read the fucking post, you’d know Jill wasn’t talking about them. (And seriously, I know folks who get on better with members of the opposite sex, but they don’t feel the need to declare it every five minutes like they deserve a fucking cookie or something.)

  5. Hmmm. Well, tell you what, cis white woman. Not all women are reduced with stereotypes of the “feminine” traits.

    What I mean is, some women aren’t “stereotypically feminine” by society eyes no matter what they do and it’s not exactly to empower them.

    1. Hmmm. Well, tell you what, cis white woman. Not all women are reduced with stereotypes of the “feminine” traits.
      What I mean is, some women aren’t “stereotypically feminine” by society eyes no matter what they do and it’s not exactly to empower them.

      Was this directed at me or at the author of the post I linked to? Because, yeah, that was part of my point.

  6. Hey, as long as I’m not expected to abide by your (the royal you) standards of femininity, I don’t care what other women do. Oh wait, I am expected to comply. Drat. In other words, women can be as feminine as they want, as long as they don’t try to force it onto me or consider it a point of superiority that they spend hundreds of dollars on shoes that literally deform the body over time, as just one example. pmsrhino, I’ll let you know if I still manage to make it in the world 😉

  7. Hi Jill,

    I think I especially like the two posts put together, yours and Wendy Atterberry’s. I got the impression from reading her list that she was vexed into overstatement upon reading someone else’s criticism of an English newscaster for wearing “more makeup than a drag queen.” Whether or not that was Atterberry’s intention I appreciate the way your post balances hers.

    I especially appreciate your last paragraph, which I think answers both your concerns about Atterberry and her concerns about the self-identified “old-school feminist” who set her off. Because on the one hand it’s not so much that you can be all those things on the list and still be a feminist (I’m sure you could find some who are) but you can be some of those things. Or at least ought to be able to be without someone drumming you out of the corps. On the other hand you can’t go around “not a feminist but-ing” because you buy into the notion that the only “real” feminists do none of the things on that list.

    figleaf

  8. But I am constantly frustrated by women and girls trying to assert how cool they are by emphasizing that they just can’t stand women, and they’re so much more comfortable with their “guy-friends”

    Me too. And I’m one of the women described above, inthe way that most of my friends are guys. The thing is, though, I’m trying to figure out why that is, and see if there’s a problem with my automatic inclination to befriend males rather than females, because I have more than a hunch that it is related to internalized misogyny rather than a natural preference for males as hang-out buddies. For me personally, anyway.

  9. I admit, I’m one of those girls who hates on other girls. This is something I want to change about myself. I’m going to make it a New Year’s resolution to effectively work on, though I guess one could say, why wait till then?

  10. I will continue to insist that my decision to change my name upon marriage to a man is a FEMINIST choice.

    Here’s the thing:
    – The fact that it is easier to change a woman’s name to her husband’s name than it is to change any other person’s name for any other reason is a result of patriarchy.
    – The fact that it is easy for a woman to marry a man, but not a woman, or not multiple people, is a result of patriarchy.
    – The naming system we use in English speaking countries altogether is a result of patriarchy.
    – Marriage, period, is, frankly, a patriarchal system. Especially monogamous, opposite-sex marriage sanctioned by the state wherein the man and woman plan to start a nuclear family.

    Here’s the other thing! Here’s how feminism portrays this decision: OBVIOUSLY you, a cis straight woman, are going to become romantically involved with a cis straight man, and OBVIOUSLY, you are going to have that involvement rubber stamped by the state in a fancy flowery ceremony involving dresses and cake and/or a trip to Vegas, and OBVIOUSLY, there are only two choices available to you upon this event: to change your surname to your husband’s surname, or to keep the surname you were using prior to your marriage, and OOOOOBVIOUSLY, in that case the latter choice is The Feminist Choice and the former choice is Like, Totally Unfeminist.

    OK, that’s lovely, but you know what you’ve just done? You’ve painted a beautiful pictures of straight, white, class-privileged, college-educated cis abled life.

    And guess what? The rest of us don’t live that life!

    We live different lives, affected by patriarchy in different ways! Novel concept!

    A lot of women of color do want to be able to stay home and care for their family! And white women condescend to tell them “No, that’s so constraining, look, let me free you by sending you to an Ambitious Professional Career!” And maybe not all women of color appreciate that! Because their life is different than yours!

    A lot of women of color and disabled women have been forcibly sterilized, and a lot of others have faced pressure and harassment from society about wanting to have children! And white and abled women condescend to tell them “No, that’s so constraining, look, let me free you by fighting for your right to an abortion!” And maybe not all of those women appreciate that! Because their life is different than yours!

    I still don’t see how it is AT ALL FEMINIST for me to have kept the name I was assigned before my marriage. I can see how patriarchy made it damn easy for me to fall in love with a man and marry him and have that decision approved of by society. I can see how patriarchy made it damn easy for me to have my legal name changed over to his. That should all change! But it still wouldn’t have made my decision any different! Because my situation is not the situation of your generic het white class-privileged college-educated cis abled feminist! And in order to fight the oppressions in my particular situation, I will have to do something different than a generic het white class-privileged college-educated cis abled feminist would have to do! Because our lives and our situations ARE DIFFERENT!

    Novel concept.

    This is the one thing I wish mainstream feminism would get into its damn head. You cannot simply generalize out your experiences, as a privileged-in-whatever-way person, and assume that your problems are everyone else’s problems, and the way to solve those problems is the way everyone else’s problems should be solved. You HAVE to grok that basic concept: Different Situations. Different Solutions. You HAVE to be able to step back from your own life, identify your areas of privilege, identify how they affect your life, and think through whether everyone else’s life is affected the same way without that privilege. You HAVE to be able to do that.

  11. AmandaW, I totally agree with your post, especially since I read all about your situation. But about the comment on fighting to keep abortion legal? I don’t think it should be legal in order to set anyone free. I think it should be legal because I want the option of having one, and I think other women should have the same option. I don’t fully understand how that example relates to the rest of what you’re saying.

  12. GUY-FRIENDS.

    I have hated this term ever since I first heard it in 7th grade. Unless you’re making some sort of all-important distinction, why can’t you just refer to them as your “friends”?

    Huge pet peeve.

  13. You might know all of this, I’m not sure. Andrea, women with disabilities, and women of colour, and women of colour who have disabilities, have different reproductive justice issues than white women do.

    Women with disabilities are still sterilized against their will. Women of colour and women with disabilities will have their children taken away from them as a matter of course by the government. There are ways of getting out of institutionalization, such as being in jail or being in an asylum, that are “agree to be sterilized.”

    Control over bodies looks different for different people. I respect the right to abortion, and campaign here in Canada to keep that right and campaign against the lies about it spread by forced-birth proponents. But those are not the only problems, and when the focus around reproductive issues is on abortion, it’s ignoring things that are of importance to other types of women.

  14. And… I should not comment until after I’ve eaten. I think my tone is all over the place, and I really was aiming for just “Things that are relevant to your question”, and nothing more.

  15. Anna, point taken. But I think sterilization and abortion are two different things, aren’t they (no snark intended). I’m pretty sure one can be resolutely anti-forced sterilization and remain resolutely pro-choice. Sorry I was confused.

  16. the stereoptical feminist — who is “masculine” and queer and mouthy and not conventionally attractive

    Hey, I resemble that!

    And I don’t really give a shit about surnames or chocolate chip cookies or any of that, or what a self-identified feminist’s stance is on that. (Though the “I love men and hate women” thing does bother me.) Those are just bits of mainstream feminist brand identity that have no bearing whatsoever on my life as I live it. Just none at all. I’m more concerned about whether a feminist supports free universal healthcare, or knows that if you identify as a woman you are a woman, or trusts that even if my disability is invisible I’m not faking it, or doesn’t use slang terms for female sex workers as pejoratives—just for starters. It’s not about ideological underpinnings. It’s about safety and trust and basic decency.

    Andrea: the thing is that for many women, legal abortion is just not on the radar. For many women, saying, “I have the right not to reproduce” is largely pointless because dominant society says, “You shouldn’t reproduce! You should have been aborted yourself; you shouldn’t exist in the first place.” Women in poverty, women with disabilities, women of colour…and let’s not forget that uteri and ovaries != women.

    Not everyone has the same choices, and even if they do, those choices don’t mean the same things. I am not even going to get into my surname and how it has more to do with violence and race and “passing” than it ever will with mainstream feminism.

  17. I have been married a number of years now and I never changed my name and neither did my husband change his. But this apparently is ‘quite’ the scandal amongst my family. Who knew they were so easily scandalised? Pfft, boo hiss to the patriarchy.

  18. But I think sterilization and abortion are two different things, aren’t they

    Well, no. Because they both have to do with my own control over my own body, and therefore anyone paying attention to one cannot ignore the other — or else it’s not about a woman’s right to control her own body, anymore: it’s about society’s right to define what women get to do with their bodies, just with a different definition this time.

  19. amandaw, I said “I think sterilization and abortion are two different things” not to imply that both weren’t about control over a woman’s body, but to make the point that you can be for one and against another. I can be pro-choice and anti-sterilization, I believe. Taking my quote out of context like that completely misrepresents what I was saying.

  20. Yes, what amandaw said. The prevailing message is that people like me shouldn’t have kids, that it’s too bad that they don’t have test so they can abort people like me. The consensus is that people like me will only abuse their children, that their kids will never have a “normal” childhood. Thus, we should make sure that women like me get abortions or have their children taken from them. If people like me get to keep our children, the public thinks they have the right to scrutinize our lives.

    I hear all this about poor women, women of color, women with disabilities including mental illness, queer women, polyamorous women, trans* women and men and all the intersections of those groups you could think of. I’m sure there are more groups that I’m not thinking of right now, but the point is, for many women, we are less worried about being able to abort than we are worried about having all kinds of bodily agency.

  21. I don’t know why you’re making a huge point of being pro-choice and anti-sterilization as though that’s somehow at odds with anything I or Anna have written. We’re saying that a woman’s right to control her reproductive capacity extends far beyond righttoanabortion, which is all mainstream feminism focuses on — and that’s when it’s not feminists telling disabled women or poor women that it would be irresponsible of them to reproduce anyway — and the whole point of my original comment is that mainstream feminism needs to perhaps broaden its worldview a bit and consider other situations in their own contexts.

    I don’t see what you’re arguing about, except that you have a vague objection to something that’s been said that you have yet to articulate.

  22. Also, the eugenic slant of pro-choice people saying “What if the fetus is disabled?” ties into this. I don’t want to police anyone’s reason for an abortion, but a rallying cry that involves the eradication of people with disabilities is problematic.

    It is not the individual abortions that are the problem, but the assumption that a life with disability isn’t worth living and that child with disabilities must be unwanted.

  23. Sorry, amandaw, I was confused by the way you equated fighting for a right to an abortion with forced sterilization. That’s why I asked for clarification. I’m not objecting to anything, I’m trying to understand better, and now I do. I said in my original comment “I don’t fully understand.” Man, be careful asking a question around here. I know, it’s no one’s responsibility to explain anything to me during a discussion, but there was a specific point you made that in my small little mind I didn’t quite get. I’m glad I understand better now. Thanks.

  24. Really well-said, Jill. I was recently taken aback by someone who wrote something like “My husband is on a business trip and I miss him a lot. I know that makes me a bad feminist, but it’s true!”

    WHERE TO START.

    Of course I gave a reasoned and encouraging response, but oy.

  25. I’m pretty sure one can be resolutely anti-forced sterilization and remain resolutely pro-choice.
    to be truly pro choice I’m pretty sure it’s required-it’s the forced that gives it away.
    I do understand the issues, but I hate hate hate the stupid meme that just because I believe I should have a choice to not have a baby somehow means that I oppose the idea that other people should have a choice to have a baby. They’re part of the same thing.

  26. kb, I’m not patently against sterilization, only sterilization against someone’s will, because I have been considering such a proceedure so I won’t ever have to get another abortion (since I don’t want to have kids). I would never, ever presume to tell another woman what to do with her body. Ever. Everyone should have the choice to have a baby or not. But thanks for all those great accusations!

  27. Andrea-you aren’t the issue. read amandaw’s comments. she’s less explicit than I’ve seen this in other threads elsewhere, so I’m probably getting more ranty than that deserved. but I agree with you-everyone should have the choice to have a baby or not. that’s what pro-choice means.

  28. adding-and pro choice means I support all choices, and I get fed up with people telling me that what I mean by pro-choice is that I don’t care if women are forcibly sterilized, like this
    “A lot of women of color and disabled women have been forcibly sterilized, and a lot of others have faced pressure and harassment from society about wanting to have children! And white and abled women condescend to tell them “No, that’s so constraining, look, let me free you by fighting for your right to an abortion!””

  29. Ugh, I read all of amadaw’s comments, because I’m the one who asked for clarification. But you quoted me and then went on to use my quote as an example of people who don’t think women should have choices. Okay, I’ve learned my lesson, no more asking questions on this webiste. I get it. Enough.

  30. Thank you, Amandaw… that was perfect.

    I was completely horrified and enraged at the tone the name thread had taken, where so many women were proudly apologetic in their proclamations about how much they despised women who took their husbands names. Yes, we are all aware that western patriarchical standards exist and that name-changing doesn’t happen “in a vacuum”. But there is some other stuff in the non-vacuum too, which is MORE important when making that choice for some of us.

    In my case, it was actually more of a feminist statement **within the bounds of my specific familial and work sphere**, to take my husband’s name. I can hear the squawks of disbelief already, but *it’s true*, and just because the opposite choice is “more feminist” for someone else in **their own personal sphere** does not mean that I’m stepping on other women by making my choice. I’m sad that some women feel that way. And I understand that in some ways, my changing my name at the time I did in the way I did could conceivably normalize something oppressive for other women. But that’s the thing with being pro-women-making-choices-for-themselves. We can make a choice, after weighing the options as best we can in our own circumstances, that might still be “the party line choice”. Otherwise, we’ve just replaced one non-choice with another. We might still decide to have the baby, or take our husband’s name – or get married even though the history of hetero marriage is frought with problems, and the future looks murky for non-hetero marriage rights.

    The important part is NOT TO TRY TO FORCE THE CHOICE AWAY FROM OTHERS, REGARDLESS OF ONE’S OWN PERSONAL CHOICES. (Sorry, for the internet yelling… I suck at html for effect). Too often people colour other people’s choices with their own beliefs about what that choice means, without knowing whether the other person colours that choice differently, or doesn’t even use the same box of crayons. For me, putting on makeup might feel oppressing, but to a trans woman wearing makeup out in public the first time might feel gloriously affirming. Some women deeply feel marriage is an oppressive structure, while obviously enough people feel it is a wonderful institution to fight tooth and nail for the right.

    General Plea to Humankind: Please, no more trying to figure out what we can “legitimately” hate other women (or people in general) for doing. Let’s start trying to broaden our grey areas and deal with people on a more case-by-case basis.

  31. “A lot of women of color and disabled women have been forcibly sterilized, and a lot of others have faced pressure and harassment from society about wanting to have children! And white and abled women condescend to tell them “No, that’s so constraining, look, let me free you by fighting for your right to an abortion!””

    Uh, kb, this true. I’ve seen it happen, and it’s happened to me.

  32. KB, I totally misread your comments. And now realize they weren’t directed at me in the way I thought they were. Forgive me, I’ve been studying for my oral exams and have pulled three 11 hour days of reading in a row so far this week. I think my brain might actually be melting.

  33. And KB, when you said: “pro choice means I support all choices, and I get fed up with people telling me that what I mean by pro-choice is that I don’t care if women are forcibly sterilized”

    I was getting the same vibe from the comment, which is why I wanted clarification in the first place. Now I better understand where people were coming from. But it sucks being disparaged when you’re just trying to understand, doesn’t it.

  34. Andrea, I get that you’re tired, but comments like this: “Okay, I’ve learned my lesson, no more asking questions on this webiste. I get it. Enough.” and “But it sucks being disparaged when you’re just trying to understand, doesn’t it.” make you come across very poorly.

    I know you’re tired. I’m tired, too. So are a lot of other people. We’re tired, and we’re trying to take the time to answer your questions.

    The reason Amandaw would bring up abortion in this context is because both mainstream media and mainstream feminism pay a great deal of attention to abortion. What a lot of feel is that the same groups do not give near enough weigh to situations like the continued forced sterilization of certain types of women, and the way that certain types of families will have their children taken away for being unsuitable family-situations. While issues around bodily autonomy and the like are framed in terms of who is allowed to not have children, we’d like some more discussion about how is encouraged to have children, and who has their children taken away.

    It’s the same thing with the other issues that Amandaw brings up. The every-few-months discussion about Is It Feminist To Do X usually focuses on the voices and experiences of mainstream feminism, which is typically white, young(er), child-free, non-disabled, middle-class, college-educated. Whenever we start talking about why we might find that problematic, we’re told to be quiet, because it makes some people uncomfortable. I remember very nasty comment threads here at Feministe where people basically complained that we were saying sexism is okay if it “only” happens to that group of people. (This hasn’t happened here in a while.)

    [Of course, Feministe isn’t made up of “just” that group of women by any stretch of the imagination, but media attention is still primarily focused on that group, so of course it always comes down to “Can I still be a Feminist if I do X?”, without much nuance and discussion of what that question actually means.]

    It gets exhausting every time you try and bring up these things having to have the same conversation over and over, trying to explain that these choices are different and have different contexts for other groups of women. Eventually, one gets angry and just starts telling people off. Because eventually we don’t feel like we have allies, just people who we have to fight with as well as along side.

  35. Amandaw- I really can’t figure out where taking a guys name and staying at home with the kids is better from a non white perspective; I am interested to hear about it. Do you have any links or a short explanation?

    Also, Isn’t having the choice to stay at home and raise kids at all a demonstration of class privilege?

  36. skeptifem, for a start, non-white women have historically been made to go out to work and prevented from being around to raise their children – and that work has often been raising white people’s children. Many non-white women have been prevented from having homes, having children, or have had their homes and children taken away. Also, we’ve regularly been made to take on white people’s surnames, so choosing to escape that particular racist structure and taking on surnames of our own, building our own community and connections, is a powerful thing. Although, personally, surnames were forced on my people so I find any surname problematic for me! I won’t go into the particular significance of home-based work in my culture. Of course having the choice to stay at home and raise kids is a function of class privilege. This is pretty elementary and googleable stuff.

  37. I don’t see the problem with calling them guy-friends and not friends (men and women are different after all?) just like a man/woman calling his/her wife/husband rather then partner.

  38. Good post Happy Feet I agree with a lot of what you said.

    Pretty much the issue boils down to the fact that it’s ok to make choices which conform to stereotypes and conventional gender roles, it’s more being able to make the choice free from external pressures which is the issue in the first place.

    P.S. I secretly wish I was woman, female empowerment is so badass!

  39. skeptifem – I can’t figure out how marrying a man but keeping your own name and going to work away from your kids if you have them at all is better from a white perspective. Do you have any short links?

    This is the *point.* There are different contexts. You cannot assume your context is universal. I can identify a million and one ways that the pressure to participate in class-privileged work-for-pay career structures is only reinforcing oppression for many groups, and yet college-educated career-minded white abled class-privileged feminists never seem to consider that maybe THEY are stuck in a situation that is bad for them, even as they look at women who might like to not participate in that system and say “no, that situation would be bad for you.” *That is the point.* It’s all about the dominant group forcing their narrative on everyone else and patting themselves on the back for being so nobly helpful. Even as the rest of us are trying to explain, over and over and over again, that their narrative does not apply to us in many ways. Never seems to matter to the dominant folks, tho.

  40. Anna, see, the thing is, this is a forum for feminism in general. Amandaw specifically said that these are issues mainstream feminism normally does not take into account, and should. So I think it would then be hard to argue that this is a 101 question, because these are not issues as widely addressed. So no, I don’t feel badly about asking for certain points to be clarified. That’s how you have a conversation. In fact, I’m glad I did because you and Tlönista clarified the point very well. I never made the excuse to you that I’m tired, that was in reference to comments exchanged with another poster. It’s not like I went onto a blog dedicated to these issues and demanded they be explained. They were brought up here as issues that mainstream feminists need to take into better consideration, so being attacked when I try is a little… disingenuous. As you have been saying, you cannot assume your context is universal. But sometimes understanding someone else’s context requires a little more than blanket statements of ““No, that’s so constraining, look, let me free you by fighting for your right to an abortion!” And maybe not all of those women appreciate that! Because their life is different than yours!”

  41. Privilege: U Has It. Congratulations! The gift comes with care instructions, though; you have to be willing to educate yourself and not expect non-privileged people to explain everything for you (and call dismissiveness “taking their problems into consideration”).

  42. Or… it’s because you aren’t familiar enough with the issues to understand what I (and others) were talking about? That was really sweet of you, though.

  43. Hey, when I make a point, I try to avoid ambiguous blanket statements. It’s funny to complain about how mainstream feminists aren’t familiar enough with the issues and then get pissed off to high heaven when they try to understand. It’s not your job to educate anyone, but when you equate fighting for the right to abortion with forced sterilization, and don’t actually articulate how the two might be related, don’t be surprised when some people who have not had that experience are confused. I’ll remember not to ask in the future.

  44. You have fun there. I’ll stay over here in the land where “trying to understand” means actually trying to challenge internalized ideas rather than being dismissive and getting defensive when called on it.

  45. You read it however you want too, in order to keep yourself on top. I wasn’t be at all dismissive, and never as sarcastic as you. I’m disengaging now. Enjoy your “victory”.

  46. Wow. The best way to show your sincerity is definitely to demand that women of color are sufficiently polite and deferential to you. Way to go, Andrea.

    You were very dismissive, even when several women took the time to explain to you what is a pretty elementary idea. Maybe not for “feminism in general” but the fact that a lot of mainstream white feminists have blinders on when it comes to race doesn’t give you an excuse to be demanding spoons.

    You mentioned finals, so I’m going to suggest some not-so-light winter break reading. Check out “Killing the Black Body” and “Shattered Bonds” both by Dorothy Roberts. She discusses the history of eugenics and sterilization in the United States in depth, as well as the ways in which the child protection system harms not only families, but communities of color in the United States.

    If you want to learn about these things it really is best to take some of your own time to investigate. Yes, when you don’t know the first thing about a subject it can be daunting, but it sounds like you’re in school so you have many excellent resources at hand to help you. Even without these book recs, you could go to your reference librarian and say “I’d like to read about the history of forced sterilization in the United States” or “I’m curious about feminist/womanist/liberationist philosophies that are explicitly focused on women of color.” You could also google, or surf the blogroll provided by Feministe. You do not have to demand answers from women who have made it clear that they are already justifiably exasperated with white women who have no idea where they’re coming from.

    Before we get too deep into the “women of color are mean” trope, I should clarify that I’m white – and am telling you it’s actually not a free pass to be a jerk.

  47. Wow, amandaw being scolded for her tone! This is just like the feministing chat!

    And yeah, I’d really appreciate it if the context of feminism didn’t paint me as a horrible person who capitulates to the patriarchy for dropping out of high school and wanting to be a housewife. Different choices work for different people. The ability ot have the choice is the *point*.

    Apologies in advance if I’m slightly incoherent, I just spent several hours baking and now get to nap before thanksgiving dinner.

  48. Umm, amandaw is also white, not that it matters. And I didn’t expect anyone to explain the whole damn history to me. I was confused about one specific section of a post she made where the connection was not evident to me. I’m sorry I asked. I will not do so again. I’ve already apologized several times for asking what the connection between abortion and sterilization is. I WILL NOT ASK IN THE FUTURE. I get the damn point.

  49. “And yeah, I’d really appreciate it if the context of feminism didn’t paint me as a horrible person who capitulates to the patriarchy for dropping out of high school and wanting to be a housewife. Different choices work for different people. The ability ot have the choice is the *point*.”

    So I should tell my daughter it’s perfectly ok for her to drop out of high school and call it feminist because it’s her choice? Thanks, but no thanks. I don’t agree that being a housewife or changing one’s name to one’s husband is feminist, but I can at least have some respect for the argument that it is. Arguing that women can give up their education and call it feminist is just foul and disgusting. You have ever right to drop out of high school. You don’t, however, get to declare it feminist just because you decided to do so.

    1. Um, Faith, I don’t think that Shiyiya said that her choice was necessarily “a feminist choice” (she may feel that way, of course, I don’t know, but i don’t see anywhere that she said it), just that she wished feminism didn’t paint her as a horrible person for having done it. Which is exactly what it seems to me that your comment attempted to do …

  50. “Um, Faith, I don’t think that Shiyiya said that her choice was necessarily “a feminist choice” (she may feel that way, of course, I don’t know, but i don’t see anywhere that she said it), just that she wished feminism didn’t paint her as a horrible person for having done it. Which is exactly what it seems to me that your comment attempted to do …”

    I did interpret it that way. Rereading it, I still interpret it that way. Is she a horrible person for dropping out of school? Obviously not. Arguing it’s feminist because the point is to “have that choice”, is foul and disgusting. I stand quite firmly by my statement, Cara.

  51. Irrrespective of whether Shiyiya approaches dropping out of high school as feminist, your reaction just goes to prove the point, Faith. You don’t know the significance that particular choice had in Shiyiya’s life, you don’t know the context, you don’t know her life circumstances, you don’t know what it has meant for her. You just know how it signifies from your perspective. This plays into the wider attitude we’re talking about: assuming one group’s, or one person’s, perspective as the default can be damaging.

  52. Arguing that women can give up their education and call it feminist is just foul and disgusting.

    This seems like an assumption that high school is always the best choice no matter what. Kinda depends on the education system and the high school itself, don’t it? And I say this as a person who intends to be a student for the rest of her life and has loved nearly every class and teacher she’s had — the education system does not work for everyone, and there are ways to get an education *outside* of the system. My friends taught me that. I think dropping out of high school could very well be feminist.

    I don’t get on with labelling any general act “feminist” or not. Feminism is challenging patriarchal and sexist norms; depending on the person, the act, and the context, anything we do might be feminist or might not be. I agree with the general gist of Jill’s post (e.g., being feminist and sexist, not having to be but not having to hate the “stereotypical” feminist), but from the comment thread the bigger issue still seems to be how narrow white, middle-class feminism still is, that the dominant issues in this discourse still don’t include other experiences of womanhood (and other ways of being and living) enough.

    Enfranchisement is another one of those things. Gaining (or protecting) the right to vote has more than once been central to anti-oppression movements, and yet enfranchisement has also been used as a tool of oppression. In Canada, up until 1985, enfranchisement was forced on indigenous people (initially only men, and later women) as a way of justifying the revocation of their “Indian status” (the Canadian government’s recognition of their indigenous personhood and associated rights–in and of itself colonialist and condescending). (There’s an article here from UofT with more detail about how forced enfranchisement in Canada worked.) Many Metis, First Nations, and Inuit women in Canada (women in particular were targeted because they lost status if they even married a non-Status person) are still dealing with the negative effects of forced citizenship, and for some indigenous people, participation in the Canadian government is seen as a betrayal or at least the wrong way to resolve things. As a white colonialist Canadian woman, I simply did not understand how the right to vote could ever have been a bad thing (or at least not a central concern) until this was pointed out to me.

    When I think about the Whiteness and colonialism I experienced in the course of my education (not recognized by me as a bad thing at the time, of course), and how schooling in Canada has also been a source of violence and oppression for indigenous people, I can think of a few more reasons for why dropping out of high school could be a feminist act.

  53. Urk, I feel like I messed up in the above comment and was confusing. I do think that acts can be described as “feminist”, but that there isn’t any way to assume that any general category of acts is automatically (or even highly likely) to be “feminist” or “not feminist” — it’s just too complicated to make those kinds of assumptions, although clearly we do.

  54. I’m sorry but I have to post here – WTF?

    I’m pololly on racialicious as well so you can check vouch that I’m a WOC. The conversation seemed to derail into something completely alien to me and then suddenly anyone who questioned it is giving tone arguments. I’m totally lost. I feel like I’m about to get my black card revoked here but I’m plowing on regardless.

    I still haven’t seen a good argument for why a WOC who takes her husband’s name is being feminist. Firstly, not all black POC have slave names. I’m black and my name is African. Many people’s are. Lots of POC aren’t black and so their names may be their own (if you want to call it that). I don’t think I buy it. If you want to change your name, then change it. What’s stopping you from doing it right now? Any POC can reclaim a non slave name any time they like – you don’t think it’s problematic that the majority of the time it is women doing the changing? And only when they get married?

    Here’s my example: I’m a black women and when I get married I’m taking my husbands name. Damn right. Why? Because I’m a black woman. If I don’t have my husband’s name, people are going to assume that I’m some whore with a kid with no dad. That I don’t have an education and blah blah blah. I’m gonna wear my wedding ring every day and change my f*cking legal name to *his wife*. Is it feminist? NO. Because I’m supporting an us and them. Them being the women who aren’t married to their children’s fathers and get judgment. Me being ‘legal’ and proper. Good and not so good women. How can that be defended as a feminist action? It can’t. It’s good for me but it’s not a feminist action.

    But *on race* when I was 13 and I took my nephew out to the shop, people tutted. No one tutted when my white friends took their kid brothers to the shop because no one assumed that a white kid would be a teenage mother. So I get it. Some actions have to be protective and sometimes other things take precedence. But that doesn’t make them feminist.

  55. Just to add: I have a million examples. Being a POC means that you’re not gonna get the benefit of the doubt. You are always asking for everything you get. I know, believe me. Intersecting oppressions suck ass but ok. Sometimes I don’t wanna fight – I want legitimacy. Which seems to be the underlying point here (If I’m missing it, please explain).

    Why can’t we just say that we aren’t gonna be 100% feminist all the time? Who cares? No one is.

    This is weird to me because these arguments seem similar to the arguments that Morehouse could use to defend their ‘dress code’ policy.

  56. As it happens, I did change my name to one of my choosing – no, I didn’t get married – but as I said above, the whole concept of surnames was forced on my people. There is no true anti-oppression action for me to take here. As such, I find that the great feminist name change conundrum isn’t a binary choice with a good feminist option and a bad feminist option.

    I didn’t say that all black people have slave names, and I didn’t say that all non-white people are black, especially as, you know, that would have been erasing myself. Nobody said that it wasn’t problematic that most of the name changing is done by women on marriage to men.

    What is also problematic is holding specific women to account as patriarchy-upholders for doing so without taking into account their particular context. Of course we aren’t all performing feminist actions 100% of the time. Nobody was arguing for feminist purity. What is being questioned here is who gets to decide what feminist action is, and how these conversations tend to get framed in terms of a very particular kind of woman’s experience.

    If there is no place for feminist name changing in your life, that’s fine. Not everyone is in the same position. I wish there was place for feminist name changing in my life. If this conversation is alien to you, that just goes to further prove the point that has been made over and over: there is no monolithic experience of womanhood.

    I think there are also arguments to be made on self-protection as feminist, and fulfilling one’s own desires in a world in which women are told to not acknowledge them, but I won’t go into that now.

  57. I’ve been considering some last name changing myself. My name is not my own, and I’ve had at least three different names. The one my my first mother gave me, the one my foster parents assigned me and the one my adoptive parents gave me.

    I had no agency in those choices, nor did I have the choice to be a little black girl adopted by a family in one of the whitest states in the US. If I happened to change my name while getting married, to me, that might be taking myself back.

  58. Ok. I have family in town, so I don’t have time to respond to every comment on this thread, most of which are excellent. So, a few brief thoughts:

    -Yes, there are a whole wide variety of different contexts for different women. That’s part of the reason why I resented this article — it seemed like an exercise in shadow-boxing against a Feminism that wasn’t really defined, aside from some jerk’s criticism of an anchorwoman for wearing too much make-up.
    -That said, I stand by the argument that not every choice a woman (or a feminist) makes is a feminist choice; and that while the ability to make that choice is crucial, it’s also crucial to look at what underwrites the choices we make. Because no choice is freely made. And pretending that we all operate in a space where choices are made and it’s all about individualism is very, very dangerous.
    -But where this post really failed — and I think amandaw and Chally and others have pointed this out much better than I will — is that it (I) approached “choice” from a very particular viewpoint. What choices are available to one woman are different from the choices available to another; a constraint to one women is an open door to another.
    -All of that aside, though, I think it’s crucial to have these conversations — about what “choice” really means, and about what we all face in our day to day lives. I would just like to take them out of the context of what makes one a “feminist.” As Natalia said, there isn’t a one of us who doesn’t make “un-feminist” choices every single day. And I’d imagine most of us also make choices that we could paint as perfectly feminist, given the angle. We’re all human beings doing out best. My interest, though, isn’t just saying, “Well you had a choice and that’s dandy,” but in opening up so many options for women that we don’t have to feel like our choices define us.

  59. I am also a woman of an ethnic minority, but I can pass, which brings up a whole load of interesting dynamics (eg being frequently asked to join in bashing my own group). Even for me, with the history of my people being what it is, honestly the intersection of abortion/sterilization was news to me. Therefore I feel I’ve benefited from the insights provided on this thread. However the aggression seemed to me uncalled-for.

    I am constantly asked things about what ‘my people’ believe or what our customs are and I consider it an opportunity, not an affront. I know firsthand that it can be fantastically boring and repetitive. But if I can enlighten a person a little, I’ve helped them take a small step toward being a bit more understanding and inclusive (as I hope I will be next time I discuss abortion with a POC). Sometimes they turn around and offer an insight into their own culture or ethnic group that parallels mine, and that breaks down barriers. This happened just recently with a Muslim friend, and God knows there is a group that could use a bit of understanding these days.

    Of course nothing is owed to those who are insincere, snarky, or bigoted, nor should one feel obliged to just drop everything and turn professor 24/7, especially if the context is inappropriate (eg at work). But I think it’s reasonable on this message board to assume that people are here because they are willing to exchange their experiences. We all have in common that we are feminists, and we’re trying to live our lives as best we can within that framework. I think we ought to want to help each other to best achieve that. For example before I self-identified as a feminist I did not know about “good/bad hair” and all the crap dumped on WOC around that, or about the issues facing transpeople and how tied up with feminism they are. It’s because of recommendations offered on sites like this that now I have some idea about these issues. And through me, so do my husband, my sister, my brother, my dad, and some of my friends. That’s a virtuous, self-perpetuating cycle.

    So I would suggest a little more kindness is warranted to people who want to ask questions. It doesn’t take much effort to, at the very least, give them a list of google terms to search, a book recommendation, or link to an article or two.

  60. The point of feminism, I thought, was to be allowed to make your own choices and not have the ones society thinks are correct imposed upon you. Cara is correct about what I meant/said.

    And I may be naive here, but I don’t think it’s particularly feminist to viciously judge other women for the choices they make. You have no idea what the context of my choices is, Faith. The education system isn’t a good thing for everyone, and I don’t think it’s ‘foul and disgusting’ to recognize that.

  61. I am white, for the record, but I would think it would be enough on this site that I am a woman for people to know better than to use the tone argument, yes?

    The reaction to Shiyiya is perfectly exemplary of the problem I was talking about. Dominant people projecting their context onto everyone else and *refusing* to admit that maybe, just maybe, their values are not the only valid values in the world.

  62. I don’t think I’ve ever posted here, but as an old lady egalitarian feminist, and strong sista (aka WOC, to use the parlance here), I keep wondering when feminism changed to being about the right to make choices instead of the concept I was raised with: egalitarianism. Why do either gender have to conform to sociologically constructed gender norms? Why can’t we just be who we are without such restrictions?

    For example, I see no obligation as a WOC to change my name because of the societal assumptions made about black women. If I wanted to model a more positive relationship example for my teen patients, the model was in marrying/committed partnering and had nothing to do with sharing a name with my husband. And for his part, my husband wouldn’t have cared if I had called myself “Peanut Butter” as long as I was his wife. But for me, my egalitarianism did not allow me to make this change. It would have felt completely wrong. And our kidlet has both of our names. Luckily the world hasn’t exploded, we are recognized as a family, and all still moves along.

    So yeah you CAN be a feminist and cook for the family just as you can be a male feminist (which really is a stupid term…you shouldn’t have to specify gender) and be a breadwinner. Or you can be just as feminist if the genders are reversed. The point of egalitarian feminism is not to tout individual choices, but to recognize and remove gender limits that constrain us.

    Just this old lady’s opinion.

  63. My mistake! But I do stand by the rest. I think it’s a mistake to assume that because we’re all on a feminist site we’re all up for sharing our experiences in the same way, or that it is as easy or painless for all of us to “share.” amandaw shared plenty by pointing out the fact that some women’s choices are different because of race or disability – pointing out someone’s blind spot does not obligate you to explain to them everything they missed.

  64. The thing about mainstream feminism’s emphasis on career and education…

    Too spoon-deprived to do the subject justice, but briefly, the educational system—and especially the university—is only designed to teach a small range of things to a very small subset of people who learn in a particular way. If you don’t learn in that way, you’re S. O. L. If you want to learn about non-academy-approved topics, you’re S. O. L.

    Work is similar. As I’ve come into my disability I’ve had to change my relationship to work and the idea of “career”. Working as much as other people do, or having the sort of job that’s commensurate with my education, would kill me. And, as Virginia Wood says, “materialism is a rotten way to value people”.

    I realize that education and career can be extraordinarily liberating and empowering. But we don’t all experience things the same way.

    And, meta-discussion: what Butch Fatale said. Lizzie, it’s great that you are cool with educating people thoroughly. But no one’s obliged to educate people, because it takes a lot of energy and sometimes frustration! And, as you know, it’s acutely personal. Some people will get fed up a lot quicker than you, and that’s okay; please respect our limits.

  65. And I may be naive here, but I don’t think it’s particularly feminist to viciously judge other women for the choices they make.”

    Oy.

    I didn’t judge you, actually…which is something that I already pointed out. Judged what you -said-? Yep. Sure did. I’m going to keep right on judging what you said too. You have every right to make the decision that you made, but there is way too much at stake if we start telling young girls that it is perfectly acceptable and feminist for them to just say to hell with it, drop out of school, and remain subordinate to a man their entire life. Education is of extraordinary importance and only becoming even more important as time goes on. Women without a formal education are even more vulnerable than women who have a solid education. Even if their education was obtained at a basically terrible school just being capable of saying that they have an education will make a significant difference in their life.

    1. Faith, you are more than welcome to keep judging whoever and whatever you want.

      But I’m going to also ask that you do so a) quietly or b) somewhere else. As a mod, I feel not only that this conversation is a derail, but also that you are vilifying someone for speaking about her experiences of being vilified by feminists (something I already said once). And I am not at all comfortable with that. This is Jill’s thread, so she is entirely within her rights to contradict and overrule me on the matter. But until and unless she does, there it is.

  66. amandaw, I’m sorry I said you were being sarcastic. I’m not used to being talked to like that, but I understand you were very angry with me, and exasperated about feeling like I was demanding answers from you. That was not at all my intention, which I know, is immaterial, but it’s important to me that you know I did not mean to incite you, and I’m sorry that I did.

    Butch Fatale, I don’t need any further lectures, actually. Please don’t assume you know so much about me, like what my educational background is, what I have access to, and what I have time for, and please don’t presume to paint me as such a racist (speaking of not knowing what you’re talking about). I am sorry I asked, it won’t happen again. Had I realized how offensive my question was, I would never have asked it in the first place. I don’t know what else you want from me, except I can absolutely swear I will never make the same mistake, and will start doing all of my own research (in a not snarky way).

    To Anna and Tlönista, and anyone else I may have offended, I am very, very sorry.

  67. I happen to really like the original post. I don’t think it necessarily represents an intersectional point of view, but I think it was was criticizing the navel gazing “whatever I do in my privileged life that I choose is feminism since I am a woman” POV that crops up often on many sites, including many faux liberal ones.

    amandaw, I can see why the name issue can be a trigger issue for you. I read your link and was very moved.

    However, the original post does not say there are no feminist ways to do any of those things. It says that justifying these kyriarchally enforced choices SIMPLY by saying “because I choose to” is meaningless.

    Your story has meaning, amandaw.

    My cooking has meaning. My arranging to bring one baby to work with me fulltime to breastfeed and working from home with my second baby to breastfeed have meaning. My choosing (and being able to) to go to medical school while being a mother has meaning.

    My not choosing to change my name to my husband’s surname has meaning, and it is much much more meaning than just “not gonna do it because I’m a feminist, mmmKay?” My insisting that my two children with two different biological fathers have my surname and their father’s surmane positioned equally has meaning.

    My choosing a termination and choosing to parent both have meaning. My actively supporting the full spectrum of reproductive and parenting rights, from access to fertility treatments and adoption to many marginalized groups, access to affordable contraception and termination, access to quality affordable perinatal care with choice of provider and place and method of birth, and support to breastfeed (of course only if it’s a healthy possible choice for all parties) and to stay home OR go to work.

    In fact, I am going to be an ob/gyn and do whatever I can to make sure every woman, from an incarcerated woman of color with a drug addiction and a history of sex work and mental illness to an orthodox Jewish woman who wants her eleventh child gets to control her reproduction her way.

    I appreciate these comment threads and like to learn these more nuanced experiences, like amandaw’s, but do not take issue with the original post. At most, I would have liked it spelled out more clearly that one of the many reasons these shallow “it’s empowering because it’s what a want” arguments are such trouble is that they often end up enforcing the dominant paradigm, and that paradigm is not just male. It’s white cis male able bodied not forcibly sterilized middle class neurotypical etc etc, and we don’t hear any of those POVs if what is most commonly chosenby this group is elevated as being “feminist” or “progressive” just because it is chosen.

  68. Sorry, agitated over a typo. That second line in the last paragraph should say “it’s empowering because it’s what I want” not “what a want”.

  69. Chally

    Fair enough to many of your points but it seems like this is slamming the door on structural analysis which we are all perfectly content to aim at every other group. Every man has a unique experience of manhood but we still have a pretty good definition of misogyny.

    Yes, I get that so called ‘feminist police’ are often aimed against WOC and other marginalised groups who are told that they are letting down the ‘sisterhood’ by taking stock of any intersectional concerns *cough hillary clinton supporters cough*. But that doesn’t mean that (as has been asserted several times in this thread) that feminism is about ‘choice’ and whatever women choose. I agree with the poster who says it is about equality. Not one argument criticising this post makes an effective point against the central idea: that there are feminist actions and unfeminist actions and that many feminist and non feminist women can and do perform the latter.

    I mean, how can that really be argued with? No one has articulated an alternative ‘metric’ that makes an action unfeminist. Everyone just seems to be arguing (fairly angrily) that ‘we should stop judging’ and ‘what women choose’. I don’t honestly believe that everyone really means that. I mean everyone seems to have a good grasp on what makes an action ableist, racist, transphobic and is happy to (correctly) call that out in feminist spaces.

    And I know this isn’t gonna be popular but – as someone who thinks that it is NOT the responsibility of POC to educate others – I think that the exchange with Andrea was mean spirited at best. Alright, she got pretty fucking whiny there at the end but it looked kinda like a trap was set for her which she fell into and then she was roasted for it. I’m sorry but amandaw’s point (the one Andrea asked about) was not explicit. She asked clarification on a specific point and then it got snarky snarky. Fine. But don’t pretend that she sinned in some grand way that required a grand smackdown.

  70. I’ve just reread the thread and can’t find that anyone is making that point. Several people – Jill, Liana, Shiyiya – say that a feminist goal is to open up the possibilities so that this isn’t an issue. And as Jadey said, ‘I do think that acts can be described as “feminist”, but that there isn’t any way to assume that any general category of acts is automatically (or even highly likely) to be “feminist” or “not feminist” — it’s just too complicated to make those kinds of assumptions, although clearly we do.’ Maybe the reason that you don’t really believe everyone means that there are no unfeminist actions is because that’s not what’s going on here?

    I’m going to leave the comments about amandaw for amandaw. In the mean time I’ll quote Anna:

    ‘It gets exhausting every time you try and bring up these things having to have the same conversation over and over, trying to explain that these choices are different and have different contexts for other groups of women. Eventually, one gets angry and just starts telling people off. Because eventually we don’t feel like we have allies, just people who we have to fight with as well as along side.’

    ETA: Which is not to say that that’s necessarily what’s going on for amandaw. Now, let’s all wait until such a time as amandaw may reply before throwing more stuff at her, everyone.

  71. Andrea, I just assumed that oral exams went along with being enrolled at an educational institution, which usually goes along with a library, which generally have at least one reference librarian. I was probably more snarky than I needed to be in particular with the winter break comment. I’m also exhausted from studying for finals, FWIW and I don’t assume that being in school means tons of free time, that’s certainly not my experience. I didn’t say anything about who you are as a person, I was objecting to the content of your comment.

    I apologize for not fact checking before posting with regard to amandaw – not that it’s any better to be telling a disabled woman to check her tone, or a queer woman, or any other woman, as she rightly pointed out. I was lazy not to reread before commenting, which I usually do for precisely this reason – I am thinking about one thing and reading something related and my wires cross. The comment about women of color being forcibly sterilized colored my reading of the posts as this is the aspect of forcible sterilization I’ve more recently read about.

  72. Would it be utterly pointless for me to point out how typical this conversation is? White, TAB women trying to define feminism for all women is as old as, well, feminism itself.

    At some point, I will probably take my partner’s last name. He’s changing his last name to his mother’s maiden name and then I will change my last name to the one that he’s adopting. See, what makes taking his name feminist is that I am defining what’s right for me instead of allowing other folks (e.g. white women & men, ableist TAB people, my biological family) to make the decisions for me. I am determining my own future.

    See, taking my partner’s last name is a way for me to shed the identity Western society has foisted upon me. For me, keeping the surname that I have would be the least feminist choice. It’s not like my surname isn’t already a reflection of the power of patriarchy. Besides, I’ve never had much of an attachment to it. In fact, I associate it with many of the negative aspects of my past that I would prefer to put behind me. My partner’s identity is a part of my future. My father’s identity is just an indicator of my past, the part of my life that I had no control over. What in the world could possibly be feminist about keeping the surname that was forced upon me by my father?

    Taking my partner’s last name will be symbolic for me. It means that his mother’s maiden name (which is distinctly related to their her maternal and paternal heritage) will carry over to another generation instead of dying out completely. Our daughter has her own last name (which is different from mine and his) and she will retain it even after I change mine. My mother-in-law has no other grandchildren and sans adoptions my partner and I will be the only living relatives she has with that name. I am really excited to be able to honor her in this way.

    It seems that (more than) a few folks in this thread can’t imagine a world any different from the one they inhabit. The fact that the conversation devolved into tone arguments and policing is simply indicative of what white, Western, middle-class feminism looks like.

    So, how about this: Why don’t you folks who think that you know the one true meaning of feminism live your life accordingly and leave the rest of us alone as we define it for ourselves? Many of us have had enough of your definitions and judgments and whiny tantrums. See, the patriarchy isn’t the only thing many of us are fighting. We’re also fighting YOU, more specifically, what you represent. You are standing in the way of equality just as much as all of the other forces you are willing to call out. While you’re fussing over which man’s name you’ll use, we’re fighting for our lives.

  73. Pololly:
    Andrea started “getting whiny” quite early on in the thread. Amandaw’s first comment was justifiably angry, but her responses to Andrea were civil. After which, Andrea replies “Man, be careful asking a question around here. I know, it’s no one’s responsibility to explain anything to me during a discussion, but there was a specific point you made that in my small little mind I didn’t quite get.”
    That is when things started getting snarky.

    Chally has already responded to you, so I won’t talk about that. Just let me say that no one has said that any choice is feminist because it’s a choice. What people are actually arguing is that each situation is different, and what’s feminist for one might not be feminist for another.

  74. Pololly,

    the fact that YOU may not have been able to grasp the meaning of what Chally and Amandaw wrote doesn’t mean that they (and others) have failed to make an effective point. See, it’s the people who claim to have the one true definition who have to prove that the rest of us are wrong. Why should any of us accept YOUR definition of feminism instead of the one(s) that make the most sense for us, given our backgrounds and experiences? What is so-oo-oo gosh darn special about your definition that it should trump all of the other alternative ones?

  75. Pololly:
    Wasn’t going to respond, but Chally said she was ok with it.

    I find it ironic that you talk to Chally about “slamming the door” on discourse and erasing race when that is exactly what you did in your first comment to her. American issues of race are not the same as those issues in Australia, and American discussions of race can be quite confronting to Australian WOC. This is something that she has spoken about before.

    And now I’ll shut up because thus is not a subject I’m particularly good at.

  76. You guys, I am really sorry. I truly, sincerely apologize for the way I behaved. I have honestly learned my lesson, and I know it’s an important one, one that I will grown from and one that will hopefully make me a better ally in the future. There’s not much else I can do but apologize and learn from it. If there is any way to just let this one rest now, and not rehash it over and over again, that might be best (from my perspective). I’m not demanding anything, I’m just suggesting that since I have expressed my sincere apologies, maybe we can not drudge it all back up again. I am sorry.

  77. But don’t pretend that she sinned in some grand way that required a grand smackdown.

    Nobody is. Maybe we could realize that we have this exact same conversation time and time again, though (as Anna and bint have articulated) and it always plays out the same way; oppressed person says “I am being oppressed”; oppressor cries out that is an unfair accusation on their character, and they demand that you prove that they are not Angry or Mean or Have An Agenda or Trying To Make Them Look Bad but are Patient and Civil and This Isn’t About You Oh No Of Course It Isn’t, and then they press you to explain this or that little detail that they don’t understand, before we can just accept the original statement: “I am being oppressed.”

    I get just as annoyed by the “I am a WOMAN and I CHOSE this therefore it is FEMINIST” claims as anyone else, by the way, but I don’t seem to remember anyone making any such claims in this discussion (or the recent ones on other feminist blogs). What I see is a lot of people claiming, “You are presuming universal a framework that is largely irrelevant to a lot of other people in your community.” And maybe a little “You are refusing to acknowledge how your particular privileges shape your world and therefore your response to it, and to acknowledge that responses to worlds shaped differently by different combinations of circumstances will NECESSARILY be different.”

  78. Oh, PharaohKatt, thanks but I think we got our wires a little crossed (as I gather from our conversation elsewhere you know, but I’d best make that clear here). I was more concerned with my race itself being assumed rather than my cultural/national context, though that can indeed be confronting (and indeed mainstream feminism, which we’re discussing, so regularly assumes an American perspective!). But yeah, there are lots of different issues with naming and race all around the world, and it’s good to include a variety in a discussion like this!

  79. Andrea, fwiw, I’m not upset at you, and I do appreciate that you came back after a time (I honestly believe distance from a heated conversation is necessary for a person to process and genuinely address what is said in it) and apologized/clarified things.

    But, like I said, this is Conversation # Infinity+1 following the same script, which is why people tend to grow impatient in these conversations — we’ve had them before, many times, and always with the same result — no matter what sort of tone/approach we take. So some of us decide not to spend the energy monitoring ourselves for tone and patience and “civility’ every single second of every interaction, because we didn’t have that energy to spend in the first place — or maybe we’d rather turn it inward and devote it to developing and refining our own communities, in exploring things in a depth that can’t happen when we are having to explain things to the satisfaction of outsiders at every turn.

    So: no bad feelings, at least on this side. I’m sorry for the stress that seems to have resulted from this. But it can be a positive opportunity, too.

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