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You know it’s time for new friends when…

Jill

You’re drugged and wake up in the ER and they won’t get out of bed to come get you.

And you know you’re a pretty selfish person when your advice to said drugged-and-hospitalized woman is as follows:

Wow, that’s a tough call. A spouse or even a boyfriend? Yes, it would be his or her duty to haul ass to said hospital at 4 a.m. But your single female friends who are already, presumably tucked in their beddy-bies? I have to admit that, if I got a call like yours (or your mother’s) in the middle of the night, I’d do what I could from home, but would be hard-pressed to jump in my car until morning.

For one thing, it’s not even necessarily safe—depending on where you live and how far you live from the hospital—for a woman to head out alone at that hour. For another, presumably, by the time your mother called you were out of danger. Yes, overnights at the E.R. are the opposite of fun. So are disastrous drug trips. (I had one in my twenties, which pretty much sealed my fate as an illegal-substance ninny.) But only nuns make it out of youth without a few ambulance rides.

Here’s a little secret. BFFs are great when you’re upset about a boy/sick cat/whatnot. But there are limits to friendship—limits that don’t apply to our romantic partners or close family members. What I fault your friends for is not driving you all the way home the next morning, or at least following you there to make sure you got through the door on two feet. I also wish they’d been a less critical of what was, by your account, a freak incident. Why were they so unforgiving? I’d wager a guess that they think you’re lying about the mickey, tales of which are sometimes used as a cover for irresponsible behavior. (Only you know the truth.)

Really glad my pals are more loyal than Lucinda.

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66 thoughts on You know it’s time for new friends when…

  1. Wow, yeah. Definately time to get new friends. I can kind of understand them thinking she’d gone home (do none of these women own cells? Did they even try to call her and ask to be sure?) but not being there for her when she’s scared and alone? Waiting until morning to begrudgingly pick her up from the hospital?

    No way would I forgive and forget. That’s just down right nasty, makes me wonder if it was one of her “friends” who slipped the drug in her drink.

  2. Also, I might be misinterpreting, but I really do think there’s a subtle accusation that the drugged-and-hospitalized woman is lying, in this statement: “I’d wager a guess that they think you’re lying about the mickey, tales of which are sometimes used as a cover for irresponsible behavior. (Only you know the truth.)”

  3. Woah. What?! So glad my friends aren’t like Lucinda, I guess.

    I’m especially disturbed by this, and how it’s tossed around with a total lack of analysis:

    “Why were they so unforgiving? I’d wager a guess that they think you’re lying about the mickey, tales of which are sometimes used as a cover for irresponsible behavior. (Only you know the truth.)”

  4. Jesus Christ. I was also under the impression that BFFs were a great thing to have when you need someone to call when you’re alone, drugged, and hysterical in a location that you got to on foot while drugged and completely out of it from a location they’re either still at or just left.

    I mean, I can imagine circumstances under which I wouldn’t zip to the hospital bedside of a good friend who was OK at the moment if the call came at 4am on a workday. I can even conceive of circumstances under which I would say “Hey, I’m not really in a state to drive you anywhere safely, can I send a cab for you?” instead of coming myself. I cannot envision a situation in which I would blow off or leave a friend who called me because they were in a stupor and needed an ambulance.

  5. Oh, I don’t think that is misinterpreting or subtle. I think it’s right there, and it adds stupidity on top of offensiveness. By saying that, if she later makes the claim that she wasn’t implying it was the victims fault, then she is clearly implying that the victim’s friends are making that assumption…which would mean they don’t know their friend well and are awful, judgemental people…which would then lead to yet another reason to not be their friends…which is an argument that Lucinda is trying not to make.

    And, argh. The idea that women can’t call their female friends for help? WTF. I’m a dude, and if something happened to me late at night that took me into the ER, I know what friend I’m calling, and it happens to be a woman. The only friends I would hesitate about calling and not hate them for are acquiantences or newer friends, and heck, if the first people I called couldn’t come (i.e. out of town or phone off or whatnot), I would try those folk, because I hope for them to eventually become good friends so I may as well test their character now.

    I’m going to stop thinking this out because I’m freaking myself out into fear of being mugged.

  7. what the fuck is this? your friends have your back. if you’re not able to go see your friend at the hospital when something like this happens, you make sure another friend is able to. that’s how it works with my friends. >:|

  8. I’ve BEEN the friend zooming to the hospital at 4am, and I’ve been the one to whom other people had to zoom.

    I’m thinking Lucinda has some issues with her friends that need to be probed. Not to mention that if I were her friend I’d seriously reevaluate the amount of investment I was making in her acquaintance.

  9. When I was drugged in college, my BFF came to me and slept in a plastic chair by my bed until I was well enough to go home in the morning. There is nothing okay about the way her ‘friends’ treated her, and that Lucinda doesn’t see anything wrong with it is creepy and disgusting.

  10. I think what’s most disturbing about Lucinda’s response is: “So are disastrous drug trips. (I had one in my twenties, which pretty much sealed my fate as an illegal-substance ninny.)”

    This woman didn’t have a bad trip. She didn’t choose to take drugs and have a shitty experience. She was drugged without her knowledge, and she has NO MEMORY of what happened to her afterward. In what world is this not an incredibly traumatic experience? Who would not be at their friend’s side for comfort immediately? Double X continues to show such poor judgment, it’s incredibly frustrating.

  11. A few years ago, I got a phone call at 12:30 at night. I was in bed, asleep, and you’d better believe I threw on pants and drove to get my friend at the hospital. One doesn’t make a friend wait, or worse, walk themselves somewhere, if they’re in a bad place and you yourself are capable of helping.

    I’m all for crappy advice columns with sarcastic folks who don’t give real advice (the NYTimes has a particularly snarky and unhelpful one), but this borders on dangerous and ultimately disrespectful commentary. I won’t even call it advice.

  13. i mean nevermind that so many people don’t have real families or SOs who are ‘obligated’ to be there, so now who! you’re gonna let your best friend be alone in that case?! i mean thankfully this woman in particular had her mom (THE NEXT DAY) but jfc.

    i understand you can’t always haul ass at 4am; i’ve done it before, i’ve skipped class, been late to work, gotten in trouble with my parents when i was younger because i’ve tried to help my friends at any possible crisis and opportunity. but there have been times when i just couldn’t (like, too sleepy/incoherent to even be helpful). that’s not what i’m saying here, but i’d say your ass stays the hell up trying to figure out a way to get your friend to a hospital or back home (use your judgement here). ambulances are so fucking expensive and you should try to get her or found someone else to do it (although this really shows where i’m coming from, that i assume my friends don’t have insurance). or you find someone who can. you don’t leave a friend alone in a hospital, IMO, unless they explicitly tell you it’s really fine and/or they’d rather be alone. i know 4am sucks but shit doesn’t everyone have an insomniac friend they can call up for this sort of thing??

    throughout the response, lucinda seems to imply that this sort of thing is just the result of fun and fast times, so she should put her big girl panties and get over it. what the fuck!! this isn’t like ordering too many jagerbombs when your friends have been telling you all night that three is your limit.

    so much disappointment at this whole article. one of my best friends moved to boston and made so many friends who have this mentality, that friends are only there to hang out and have fun with, and occasionally vent to, but when it comes to the big stuff like helping you move out when you’ve been kicked out at the last moment, or for once you’re sobbing hysterically and they won’t even stay on the phone with you, nevermind come over when you’ve done the same for them a million times, they totally bail out. idk, i guess some people aren’t taught how to be good friends. :\

  14. What assholes! I love how the bonds of female friendship are taken to be limited as a given here–it’s only your BOYFRIEND that has the obligation to help you out. Isn’t sisterhood wonderful in this supposedly post-feminist age?

  15. Hell, I’ve dragged myself out of bed for friends, hungover and way, way too early in the morning, to rescue them from situations far less dramatic than a trip to the ER. You don’t have to love it, but you do have to go.

  16. I and my group of friends, mostly male and close for over 30 years, have always agreed that the true test of friendship is the response to a call in the wee hours of the morning asking to be bailed out of jail and given a ride home from a different state. There are several people for whom I would respond positively and I have no doubt the feeling is mutual. Picking up a friend from the hospital in a drug induced state at 4 am is not only easy but, considering my age, something I have more than a little experience with from both sides. It’s a no brainer.

  17. I almost feel like (for me at least), the more serious the situation, the less important my relative closeness to the friend is. I’m pretty sure that waking up drugged and alone in the hospital is an extremely big deal for most of us, and I’m actually having a hard time thinking of anyone I’d consider any kind of friend (best or casual–heck, even the coworker I’ve never hung out with but exchange hellos with every morning, if she’s made it so far down her phone list without getting help from someone that she’s calling me) for whom I wouldn’t at the very least order a cab for in that kind of situation. And if we’re in the category of close intimates (BFFs if you like)–isn’t that the very definition of best friend, someone you can go to for help and rely on in just about any circumstance?

  19. “For one thing, it’s not even necessarily safe—depending on where you live and how far you live from the hospital—for a woman to head out alone at that hour.”

    In other words, “You want ME to get out of the bed and venture through a place outside my gated community to your hospital so that I will get myself raped along the way? Like YOU did? Selfish bitch.”

  20. I can’t believe anyone would consider this a test or proof of friendship, when who but a sociopath would refuse to do this for their worst enemy? Someone’s drugged, scared, hospitalized and alone, all you need to know is that they’re a human being with nobody else to call. This isn’t like bailing someone out of jail, where you might reasonably tell someone they got themselves into trouble and they can get back out again on their own. These women and this columnist aren’t bad friends, they’re bad people.

  21. I talked this over with my best friend last night. She currently lives about 9-10 hours away from me and frequently takes trips to Europe. If I ever got a call like this, you better believe I’d be hauling ass to be with her. At that point, the only question in my mind would be whether driving or flying would be quicker. And, I don’t even have to ask. I know, even if she were in Europe and I needed help, she would be on the soonest flight over. Fuck, my boyfriend and his male friends once helped out a stranger who was acting drugged. She didn’t know where she was and just wandered into their dorm suite. Thank the FSM, some rapist didn’t find her first. She was a total stranger and instead of abandoning her, they actually called the police and kept her safe until someone came to take her to the hospital. That’s just basic human decency and Lucinda doesn’t think people are obligated to do the same for even their friends. What the fuck is wrong with people?

  22. No question: you haul your ass out of bed to help your friend (unless you’re in no state to drive, then you tell her that you’ll call friend X or you’ll be at the hospital at the crack of dawn, OMG and are you OK holy shit WTF WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU WERE DRUGGED WE HAVE TO CALL THE COPS RIGHT NAOW AND I’M GETTING SATANIC ON WHOEVE THE MOFO IS WHO DID THIS THIS TO YOU).

    I say this as someone who never had a bad drug trip or a resulting ambulance ride. (And TRUST ME, I was NO nun.) I say this as someone who wouldn’t be inclined to think that she was doing drugs. I hung out with a bunch of serious drug-users in the first couple of years of high school, and knew more than my share in college and adulthood–from what I know, you’re going to get high with your friends. So I really doubt that she just started, say, doing acid or dropping ‘shrooms on the sly.

    If someone has a history of irresponsible behavior, if they have a history of say, getting completely stoned and plowed and blacking out and/or ending up in the hospital, I can understand the irritation, but you express that and your concern AFTER you meet them at the hospital. If someone is being self-destructive, you have an intervention with their friends and family, you don’t pout when they’re found face-down on the sidewalk and have mini-tantrums when you pick them up from the hospital the next morning.

    FFS.

  23. That advice columnist has issues. I mean, similar to other stories in this thread, I’ve taken a total stranger to the hospital in the middle of the night, whom I came across passed out in disarray on a park bench and whom I suspected might have been drugged or even sexually assaulted. Not a friend, but a human being in trouble, sheesh, it’s really not that hard. I guess it makes sordid sense, in the age of BFF-as-reality-TV-contest and friend-as-mouse-click-verb, that an online mag hires an alienated sociopath to discuss “friendship”. Her book appears to be about “best friends” who actually hate each other, as suggested by the voodoo-pin-sticking interface. What’s even worse is her shrug-like attitude toward rape culture (“only nuns make it out of youth without a few ambulance rides”). It’s a cold, soul-draining, anti-community view of society and humanity. Steer clear.

  24. THis advice columnist is a FUCKING SOCIOPATH. ALso, this reads to me like anti-feminist propaganda. I seriously DO NOT KNOW a single woman who wouldn’t help a friend or even acquaintance in this situation. But I know a lot of “boyfriends” who wouldn’t do it. The whole thing just flies in the face of any Reality I have ever experienced.

    1. Can we please not call people sociopaths as a form of insult? Someone being a gigantic asshole is not the same thing as them having a psychiatric or personality disorder.

  25. If this woman was slipped a drug without her knowledge or consent then she should be talking to the police.
    Did she get a physical exam, did she suspect sexual assault, was her purse stolen?
    It’s very creepy that someone poisoned her and no one seems to think that’s wrong.

    1. Nancy, who didn’t say it was wrong? I thought everyone here at least was in agreement on that, even if the original advice columnist was not. Also, in the same way that I have a great disdain for the assertion that sexual assault victims “should be talking to police,” and don’t exactly feel a whole lot better about it in a case where we don’t know whether there was a sexual assault or not. If she wanted to talk to police about a crime that due to the circumstances I think would be very unlikely to result in an arrest, then I imagine that she has already.

  26. sophonisba says:
    “Someone’s drugged, scared, hospitalized and alone, all you need to know is that they’re a human being with nobody else to call. ”

    This. I can’t imagine ignoring a casual acquaintance in that situation, much less a good friend. If somebody calls you “sobbing in hysterics”, if you’re a decent human being you go and make sure they’re okay. And ‘eh, I’ll call you an ambulance and then go back to sleep’ does not qualify.

  27. Wow. I have run to help my friends at 3AM so many times! I even think that I have a bigger responsibility to be there than the Significant Other (if there is one). Do either of them know my friend’s medical history? Do they know my friend’s family’s numbers *and* how to break any news to them? I’ve seen my friends through thick and thin and they’ve done the same for me. In the ER is not the time to find out that your SigOth is a judgmental ass. Grrrr…. she has me so angry (if you couldn’t tell)

  28. I’m having trouble with the fact that they left her in the bar in the first place. If I was at the bar with friends, and one of them went to the bathroom and never came back, I’d be in the bathroom making sure she was okay. And if I didn’t find her there I would be scouring the bar for her (this is something I have done on more than one occasion). Our number one rule when at the bar is that nobody gets left behind, because being left alone in a bar is really dangerous for a young woman (as this story proves!), especially when alcohol is involved. Part of the reason my friends and I have all made it out of our youth without ambulance rides is because we look out for each other.

  29. Yeah, like roses said. They LEFT her at the bar? They ASSUMED she left, so they just took off? Christ. Yeah. NObody gets left behind. Bad enough the freinds suck anus, but the advice? Is that what that is? An advice column? Or is it some new fangled Shame column? I guess I can assume the columnist is a Polanski supporter.

  32. KMTBerry said: “ALso, this reads to me like anti-feminist propaganda.”

    Yep. Isn’t that what XX is though all the time? Along with Slate and WaPo opinion sections. It’s all owned by the same company and if you read through those sites expecting and knowing it’s anti-feminist, and anti-progressive, no matter how hard they try to pretend otherwise, you can see it clear as day.

    Saletan is a rape apologist, this advice columnist is a rape apologist. I don’t see these incidents as unique, Slate and now XX seems to have that agenda overall. I haven’t read Slate since before the election, when it became clear to me that they weren’t on the side of progress, they were interested in publishing a clusterfuck of twisted bullshit. Just looking at the XX columns such as: “in defense of Lingerie Football” (which I just read and can’t figure out the point of it. Other that to talk about Lingerie Football) or a takedown of Meghan McCain for having the nerve to be young and sometimes wrong while being blond with boobs, (i.e. what else can you expect from big boobed blondes?), a column about a new diet to try “Will following the French Women Don’t Get Fat guru’s advice turn me into Catherine Deneuve?”, the article about Taylor Swift (again, WTF? was that supposed to mean? it’s ok to hypersexualize as long as you write songs about how boys can be mean?) – yeah, that’s pretty much all status quo, anti-feminist, pro-rape culture stuff to me, and it can burn in patriarchy’s hell.

  33. What the fuck? Even my most shallow acquaintance-friends would be horrified at this woman’s take on it. Never mind the million other points ably covered here, how could you sleep if you knew someone you even remotely cared about was in that position?

    Hell, I have someone I know who I utterly genuinely wish would die (fucked? Yes, but true) and I would still help her because no one deserves that treatment.

    And phrasing it as if it was a bad trip? Not that that would mean she deserves to be abandoned but hardly accurate! And of course rape apologists are all for educating women to stay in groups and not get too drunk etc etc but somehow this person’s viewpoint makes sense to someone??

    OK, now I’m just rambling, but I am shocked.

  34. Humanity 101. You don’t just do this for friends either, you do it for any human being. Indeed one time a driver found our family dog crying in the lane where he’d been hit by another car, took him to the vet and called us using his collar tag, and that was a fucking dog.

    I once saw a total stranger collapse – some kind of fit. I called an ambulance, put him in the recovery position, held him still while he was spasming, cleaned up his bloody brow from where his head hit the curb, and then to make him comfy I folded my scarf under his head, which ruined it. By the time they arrived he was conscious, I got his name from his wallet and was reassuring him. I went through his phone to call his family and of course told them that if they couldn’t come to the hospital to meet him I would go with him because he was just so frightened, poor man. That I was late for a class didn’t cross my mind til it was over.

    I’ve a friend walk out on a fancy dinner in her ballgown to come to hospital when I had to go to the ER, and when I was in a car crash on a totally deserted road (technical failure of the car) and we had to climb out of the mangled car, a lady pulled over to help us. Another time my father and two other drivers stopped a man being beaten up by a scary guy with an iron bar (they got out and threatened to beat up the attacker; I would’ve stayed in the car and threatened to run him down while dialing cops, but anyway). I could list dozens more where I or someone I know helped someone else, friend or stranger. These things are just basic decency .

    It’s also worth noting that the two times in my life I forgave a friend for not coming through in a really serious situation (another friend who stayed at the aforementioned fancy dinner, and one who refused to help after the car crash, and even hung up on me as he was at work!) the same two people went on to separately let me down in much bigger ways, in one case honestly the worst betrayal I’ve ever experienced. So now I know, such failures are a sign that a person is fundamentally morally lacking, and to be avoided, or at least never depended on.

    The idea that you just abandon your fellow man, or woman, in such a situation is so obscene that it boggles my mind anyone could even think of it. I don’t approve of ad hominem attacks online usually because manners are universal, but rarely is it so cut and dried; this columnist is an evil fuckwit and the “friends” in question should frankly fuck off and die.

  35. Oh also…
    By negating the paramount status of (hu)man’s duty of humanity to (hu)man, Ms Rosenfeld is directly contributing to the breakdown of trust and morality in society, the blame for which is so often viciously and erroneously laid at the door of feminism. And that not only indirectly holds strong women back by perpetrating that for which we will then be scapegoated, it is evil in and of itself, because it directly harms humanity as a whole.

  36. Who is this writer and does she have any friends at all? I don’t mean that as some sort of childhood playground insult, but really: how do you maintain adult relationships beyond the level of nodding acquaintance without having this kind of baseline level of decency?

  37. Shorter Lucinda: Single? Go fuck yourself.

    What everyone else said. If someone I didn’t particularly like called me to say that they were intoxicated and helpless and scared, of course I’d help. Should I see my boyfriend the same way I see a shitty office job, as the only thing standing between me and medical catastrophe?

    Also, is anyone else a little shocked by the argument that, okay, maybe you can call your friends for help if you get stuck wasted in some strange lonely part of town, but only at a decent hour? What time does Lucinda go clubbing?

  39. I’m trying to count the number of nights I barely got any sleep because I accompanied a friend to the ER or met one there at an inconvenient hour and stayed until she was discharged or admitted. Or told my supervisor, not asked, that I was leaving work because it was 10 am and a friend was too sick to drive herself and her significant other was out of town. I got out of bed once at 12:30 am to drive 20 miles to pick up a friend with a dead car battery even though I had to get up at 6 am. That’s what friends do. Even if you have a significant other, he or she might be out of town, need to stay with the sleeping kids or need you to do it, or for many other reasons need more than a dyad to function in this world.

    I just moved to a new city with my partner, and was thinking about what I’d do if I had an emergency and she wasn’t available. Seconds later I realized that my sister moved away from here just a year ago (I told her not to leave), and that I’m pretty sure any of the friends of hers I met only once would come just because they love her and she loves me. I’d get out of bed to help a friend’s sister, or my sister’s friend, who called asking for help.

    I hope Lucinda never finds herself alone in a bad situation. I mean that sincerely. You reap what you sow, and if she won’t inconvenience herself to help a friend, she probably doesn’t have anyone to help her either.

  40. Friend shmend. If a complete stranger called me (and I could somehow confirm it wasn’t a crank), I’d haul my sleepy ass out of bed to help them if they had been drugged, potentially raped, and potentially left for dead. Because if another human being reaches out to you, needing help, and you turn your back…that makes you an asshole.

    Lucinda strikes me as the type of person to step over an accident victim rather than perform CPR. Some people just don’t think we owe any one anything.

  41. Wow. That’s just heartless.

    I’ve been on both ends of this equation, and that’s what friends do. Hell, I’ve even helped out with total strangers, when someone at work had a grand mal seizure and when a car jumped the curb and hit someone on the sidewalk in front of me. In both cases, someone who knew the person better took over, but I was prepared to accompany the person to the hospital, because it seemed the decent thing to do.

    OTOH, there is that saying about finding out who your friends really are. Apparently, Lucinda either has no friends or is a friend to no one.

  42. Cripes. My last roommate and I weren’t friends by any stretch of the imagination, but when I was in an accident this past year and couldn’t get home from the ER myself because I’d broken my glasses, you’d better believe he drove to get me at 2 a.m. when he had to work the next day. I would have done the same thing for him, and I’d certainly have done the same thing for my friends, or a neighbour, or anyone else who needed help and thought to call me. Because the only thing worse than being hurt and scared is being hurt and scared and alone.

  43. You know, I even hate the fucking title of that column. A column about women’s friendships titled “Friend or Foe?” The implication is that women don’t really ever have friends, just frenemies who are sometimes on your side and sometimes not, and that friendships are not there to be enjoyed, but to be managed for your own benefit. Like modern-day female friendship is the equivalent of some damn Tudor court intrigue. Drugged and left hysterical on the sidewalk? Oh, you poor dear, you can’t expect anyone to help you just because it’s nice! Should’ve thought to make sure you had some favors that could be called in!

  44. Even giving this a generous reading on Lucinda’s behalf, it’s screwed up. IF I had a friend who was prone to getting into trouble constantly, if she lied, created drama, went to the ER a lot when she didn’t need to, exaggerated stories, etc, I may not go to the hospital at 3 a.m. But if I had a friend like that I’d never go clubbing with her anyway– really bad idea. I’d also never leave the club without her. Even still, I’d probably still go to the E.R. if she didn’t have anyone else. Then, a few days later when she felt better I may tell her that I’m really sorry, but I just can’t keep bailing her out at 3 a.m. And that I love her and I’m worried.

    It says something pretty sad about Lucinda that she would automatically jump to the conclusion that the advice-seeker was just a hot mess who was making things up. And even if she was, the advice Lucinda gave was horrible for that situation too.

  45. I don’t have a lot of clubbing experience, but isn’t it pretty much common-knowledge that you never leave without telling your friends and you never leave a friend behind? I’ve gone out maybe three times ever but every time we did there would be this moment before hitting the first club where everyone would make sure they had each other’s cell numbers, affirmed that if someone wanted to leave they would track at least one friend down and let them know (and trust that friend to tell them if the guy looked like bad news), and confirm who the designated driver was. Maybe I just knew an exceptionally smart group of 21-year-olds, but it struck me as the “of course” thing to do.

  46. Can we please not call people sociopaths as a form of insult? Someone being a gigantic asshole is not the same thing as them having a psychiatric or personality disorder.

    “Sociopathy” is a newfangled term for what used to be called a character disorder.

  47. Can we please not call people sociopaths as a form of insult? Someone being a gigantic asshole is not the same thing as them having a psychiatric or personality disorder.

    “Sociopathy” is a newfangled term for what used to be called a character disorder.

    Sociopathy is a personality disorder that means you do not have the capability for empathy. Not the same as being a giant arsehole who has limited use for said empathy.

    Dismissing personality disorders is a huge disservice not only to people who have spent so much time trying to understand them, but to the people who suffer from them and have good reason not to believe anyone can help them.

    Borderline personality disorder is equally vague as sociopathy. It also effects primarily sexual abuse survivors, and a vast majority of whom are women (people diagnosed with borderline, not sexual abuse survivors), and the chances of success in treating them is slim.

    It is hard enough seeking help for such things at the best of times, when you don’t want to admit your problem, when it came from totally horrific abuse, when you have experience with borderline people coming in and out of the psych ward their whole life, when you hear doctors dismiss personality disorders out of hand as “untreatable”… you don’t need ignorant fools dismissing it as made up because they have no goddam experience.

    This is not me. But it is a close friend. And she is so goddam strong to be alive after what she lived through, it has me spewing reading you write off personality disorders as something that in the good old days just meant the person was a bastard. For christ’s sake.

    (Borderline also involved issues with empathy. Sociopaths and borderline people are supposed to be extremely compatible, interestingly.)

  48. It’s very creepy, when you’re only considered “worthy” of help if you have, like, a man in your life. Lucinda’s married, so I guess this is a case of “I got my own, and you’re just SOL.”

    Also, I find it incredible that any advice columnist in this day and age would play dumb about what being roofied actually means. If someone slips you something, they have assault in mind. I don’t know if this is willful ignorance, or a case of “well, only sluts go to clubs or whatever, so I guess you had it coming regardless of what actually happened.” I’m leaning toward the latter.

    If you’re friends with someone – actual friends, not fake cardboard friends that Lucinda apparently has – you have to understand that you’re not just there to get together when things are going great, to drink good wine and sing Motown hits into your hairbrushes or whatever. Sometimes, friendship requires you to get out of bed at 4 in the morning and haul ass. Otherwise – guess what? That’s not friendship.

    I’m just glad that the response to this column has been so strong. It’s good to know that there are so many of us out there who are downright offended by this so-called “advice.”

  49. Pingback: Nice slut-shaming, Noreen Malone « Natalia Antonova

  50. WRT using the term sociopath: I agree with Cara that we should drop it, for her reasons and for some other reasons.

    First, it’s fucking overused. Someone acting like an ass does not mean they are a sociopath. In fact, many sociopaths are pretty good at faking empathy–and it’s not difficult to fake empathy in an advice column, so I’d just go with clueless asshole here rather than with sociopath.

    Second, there is still a lot of discussion and debate in the field about anti-social personality disorder and sociopathy/psychopathy. There is already enough confusion in the general public about this disorder and what it is.

    Third, there are other disorders that mirror many of the same behaviors (Narcissitic personality disorder, for example).

    Fourth–and excuse my cyber shouting, here, but fuck it–THERE IS NOTHING MORE FRAKKING IRRITATING TO ME THAN ARMCHAIR DIAGNOSIS.

    Fifth–it’s getting cliched at this point. It’s overused and slightly moldy now. It’s to the point that anyone who pisses people off is called a sociopath.

    Sixth–seriously, what happened to good old fashioned insults? Clueless dipshit, inbred swinedog, lizard turd, whatever? Sociopath? REALLY? Come the fuck on.

    /derail

  51. To the Derail: Sociopathy is no longer an accurate medical term. Most Fortune 500 execs have it, as well, and using it as an excuse to demean or defame is an appeal to fear.

    I say this from a biased POV, however, as I am a sociopath (ASD). Sociopath’s have rules that are ironclad for living their lives — the key is to help make sure those rules are somewhat in line with society overall.

    To the subject:

    I find there is some underlying disempowerment going on here, coming from a rather different perspective.

    Guys are expected to go and help out a buddy who is hurt — call it the “no soldier left on the battlefield” meme if you wish or whatever. It’s part and parcel of what’s classified as a good friend, that sense and obligation of loyalty at any time.

    The response is written entirely from the perspective of women simply not being required to do so, with what I see as a subtextual inference that it could be dangerous for them or bothersome because they have other things to take care of.

    As a woman, myself, I would absolutely go if called, even if it meant I would have to walk there myself (as I’m limited in transportation). And en route, I’d be calling up the circle of friends to make damn sure someone was there forthwith, and if I was the only one to arrive in the end, there would be hell to pay the next day.

  52. “inbred”

    If we want to be careful, this probably isn’t the best insult either, because the inbred didn’t do anything wrong, even if their parents may not have been using the best discretion.

  53. Wait a minute wait a minute wait a minute.

    I hesitated to give Double X the eyeballs for their flamebait (because that’s really what this is), but I wanted to see what the original letter writer wrote.

    The LW says she does not remember the events of the evening but “apparently” went off to the bathroom and her friends never saw her again.

    She said they were at a “concert.” Not a party or a singles bar where people were constantly mingling. A concert, which means she and her friends were likely sitting or standing together the entire evening.

    Rohypnol (assuming that is what she was dosed with) takes 15 to 20 minutes to kick in. Therefore, I think we can assume that she was not dosed while she was in the bathroom, or on her way back. She was dosed before she went, with her friends right nearby.

    They left her there at the club after she went to the bathroom. (Did they all go in one car? Was the club within walking distance where they lived?) They didn’t call to check on her, and they expressed annoyance when she called them. Her friends were contacted multiple times and their response was indifferent-to-annoyed that they (and her mother) were bothering them. These were not casual acquaintances; these were friends in their 20s who had been together since they were all teenagers.

    And from this, Rosenfeld infers (and implies) that the LW is a compulsive liar who doped herself? WTF? I’d be a lot quicker to suspect the friends of having something to do with the drugging, that either they did it themselves (to get rid of her for good?) or they winked at whoever was doing it because they just didn’t give a damn what happened to her.

    I could understand being too drunk to drive, or not being able to or not having access to a car, and the hospital being too far away to take a taxi, and therefore my friend might not be able to get there until the next morning. I could even understand the friend sending the paramedics for me first, figuring I needed immediate medical attention and I’d get it faster than if I had to be schlepped to a hospital for it. What I don’t understand is this “I don’t want any drama, so get lost, luz0r” stuff, from someone who’s known you for almost half your life. That sets off all kinds of alarm bells for me.

    Like I said, flamebait. Rosenfeld, I am sure, knows perfectly well what roofies are for, and that friends aren’t as disposable for most people as they are for her. But outraged eyeballs are the name of the game.

  54. Hell, I’d get out of the bed to see a little known acquaintance or a stranger at the hospital or transport them home if they wanted me. It would never even cross my mind to _not_ help a friend in this way if they asked.

    It’s a few hours of time, and maybe a more difficult day the next day due to sleepiness, for something that may mean so much and be very important to the health and safety of another human being.

  55. @Bill: Point taken. I still hold lizard turd dear as an insult however,–insignificant yet gross.

  56. @ Dyssonance,
    “I say this from a biased POV, however, as I am a sociopath (ASD). ”
    Huh?
    Autism spectrum? What’s that got to do with being a sociopath?

    1. Kowalski … I could be wrong, but I understood ASD in this instance to mean not autism spectrum disorder, but rather anti-social disorder.

  58. I’m so disturbed by the idea that if you’re single then no one’s got your back. I’m not ever planning on getting married (for a long list of reasons I won’t get into here), and the thought that no one cares about you if they’re not your boyfriend or husband is terrifying.
    Luckily, in my experience, even a casual friend would pick me up at the hospital if I needed it. Hell, even a coworker probably would if I really needed it.
    This all comes back to the extremly antifeminist idea that women’s friendships are not real or important, and that the only way to not be alone in this world is to use sex to bribe a man into tolerating you. Actually, forget antifeminist – it’s straight up misanthropic.

  60. I have taken an ambulance ride exactly once, and that’s because my son (who was about 8 months old at the time) was throwing up everything and we had no transportation. I was 30. The idea that nobody but a nun gets out of young adulthood without several ambulance rides is chilling and implies a “normalcy” that I’m very uncomfortable with. These are not the ideas I want my kids growing up with.

    And shame on Lucinda for a complete lack of empathy, assuming that the person writing in to her column (that she gets paid to answer letters for!) is lying, and taking it as “normal” that there are only a select few people that a person can expect to have basic human decency! I read the followup, and I’m glad that the woman in question realized how shittastic Lucinda’s “advice” was, and that her friends are equally horrendous for abandoning her for /dancing with the guy her friend liked/, even after they suspected something was wrong! Those aren’t friends, they’re selfish dirtbags who clearly care more about everything than their supposed friend. If my friend in Salt Lake City were in the hospital, scared and alone, I’d haul ass out there, and that’s halfway across the country!

  62. I totalled my car up in the mountains when I was in college, more than an hour’s drive from home. My significant other had no driver’s license and I had no family in the state.

    I’m pretty damned glad I had friends who were willing to drive out in the middle of the night and pick me up from the sheriff’s office. And I’d do the same for any of my friends. If I’m not willing to help a friend in need–sure, in the middle of the night–then I obviously don’t consider them a friend.

    I fucking hate this casual view of friendship as something where you don’t actually have to provide any support or help to your “friends.” And as JFM says, the worse the situation is, the less acquaintance should be required to help (I’m not going to give a stranger a ride to work, but I’d pick up a coworker from the ER in the middle of the night and I’ll call 911 for anyone). And leaving her in the bar? Seriously? She needs new friends.

    And add me to the datapoint of “not a nun” who has never taken an ambulance ride on my own behalf. I’ve also never done drugs (which still does not make me a nun!) or broken any bones despite an active childhood climbing things I probably shouldn’t have. Ambulance rides are not a normal, common part of young adulthood!

  63. I’d be honest and say I wouldn’t get up at 4 am for a friend who said they were in the hospital and okay. I’d tell them I would see them at 10. Look, they obviously are in a safe place and can be around for a few hours until it is convenient for me to pick them up. A loved one? Sure, I’d moan about it, but do it. Not for a friend though, they can wait it out.

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