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Give Me Abstinence, or Give Me Death

The New York Times reports that a new, highly-effective cervical cancer vaccine could be available as early as next year:

If it were widely used, the vaccine could save many lives. Worldwide, there are about 500,000 new cases of cervical cancer a year, and 290,000 deaths. Most of the cases and most of the deaths occur in poorer countries where women do not have regular Pap tests, which can detect cancers or precancers early enough for them to be cured. In the United States, where Pap tests are common, 10,400 new cases are expected in 2005, and 3,700 deaths.

“A lot of people are really excited,” said Dr. Deborah Saslow, director of breast and gynecological cancer at the American Cancer Society. “This is the first major cancer prevention vaccine. The potential, particularly in the undeveloped world, particularly if they can overcome the logistics and get the vaccine to those women, could be enormous. It could prevent 70 percent to 90 percent of those deaths.”

Sounds great, right? I mean, the fact that we have a vaccine to prevent any kind of cancer is fantastic. Getting vaccinated should be a no-brainer.

But of course, there remain those in our society who seem to operate without brains.

“The best way to prevent HPV is through abstinence,” said Bridget Maher, an analyst at the Family Research Council, a conservative group that expects to campaign against making the vaccines mandatory for entering school. “I see potential harm in giving this vaccine to young women.”

Right. As opposed to the potential harm of getting cancer.

I assume Maher means that, by receiving this vaccine, 12-year-old girls will suddenly morph into sex-craved freaks — because look, mom, no cancer! As opposed to the minions of teenage girls who currently remain abstinent solely to avoid cervical cancer. Right.

Asked this week about the HPV vaccine, Scott Phelps of the Abstinence and Marriage Education Partnership cited a recent letter in which he raised concerns about giving the vaccine to youngsters.

“We’re all for preventing cancer, but is this really the way to do it – by shooting this stuff into our kids?” he asked.

Well… yeah. That’s how we prevent diseases like mumps, measles, diptheria, hepatitis A and B, polio, tetanus, even the flu. I think most reasonable people would say that if we can prevent cancer too, we should go for it.

But then, we aren’t talking about reasonable people.

“What are the side effects in these young children? And are they told what the vaccine is for? I’d be interested to listen in on that discussion.”

Phelps said issues like the HPV vaccine were a reminder that “we do what we do [that is, promote abstinence] so that these types of ‘solutions’ will not be necessary.”

In no society, at no point in history, has every member of the population been abstinent until marriage. Never ever ever. It’s surely not going to happen now, and it’s not worth sacrificing women’s lives for a misguided political ideal.

Leslee Unruh, president of the Abstinence Clearinghouse, said in an article on the group’s website that the money spent on developing the vaccines and which parents would have to pay for it “would be much safer spent on abstinence education.”

Except that, well, it wouldn’t. And here’s why: This vaccine actually works. It could prevent 70-90 percent of deaths from cervical cancer. And sure, abstinence works… until it doesn’t.

Now, to be fair, it seems like the religious folks who are actually doctors may be more supportive of this measure:

Asked for the views of America’s largest faith-based physicians’ body, Christian Medical and Dental Associations associate executive director Dr. Gene Rudd said this week that unless currently unknown medical risk/benefit problems arose, he would not oppose an HPV vaccine and doubted many of his Christian colleagues would either.

“Rather, I would welcome a development that would greatly reduce the disease and death caused by HPV,” said Rudd, an Ob/Gyn physician.

“While we should be concerned about healthcare decision-making that could encourage poor sexual choices, I do not see a clear linkage between the decision to accept this vaccine for a six year-old child, or even age 12, and subsequent sexual decisions,” he added. “The vaccine decision will likely be made by the parent.”

Rudd also pointed out the risk of marrying a spouse who was already infected.

“Even parents who teach and expect their child to be virtuous should allow for the possibility that their child might someday marry a person who had previously acquired HPV,” he said. “We would want protection in that circumstance.”

Unfortunately, though, it’s the politicans who will get the make the call on this one.

But convincing doctors may prove much easier than swaying state officials to require vaccination before youngsters can attend school, as Merck intends to do. The potential for controversy is so great that one New Jersey health official said he does not want to get involved.

“I don’t think we’d require the schools to mandate something like this,” said Eddy Bresnitz, deputy commissioner of the state Department of Health and Senior Services. “I’m sure the battle will be huge, and I’m not sure it’s a battle we should be fighting.”

Preventing women from getting cancer is not a battle we should be fighting? It’s shit like this that makes me channel Twisty and blame the patriarchy. And why, may I ask, does the deputy commission of the state Department of Health and Senior Services have any control over what kinds of vaccinations pre-teen girls get?

If thousands of guys were dying every year from a sex-related cancer, you can bet that a vaccine would be welcomed with open arms; there would be none of this “tell them to be abstinent” bullshit. Those who oppose this vaccine have seriously misguided moral compasses.


85 thoughts on Give Me Abstinence, or Give Me Death

  1. It will be very telling in 20 years or so when the cervical cancer rates plummet except for that one segment of the population that is still affected by HPV & cervical cancer.

  2. Hmmm. . . how very, very unsurprising. Sad and fucked-up, yes, but not surprising.

    Reminds me of Pataki’s reasoning that the morning-after pill should not be available over the counter because it would increase the number of statutory rapes.

    Right. That makes so much sense. Except that it totally doesn’t.

  3. The readers of this blog pride themselves on being well informed on things sexual, so can anyone tell me how many sexually transmitted diseases, aside from HPV, are out there that the condom does not protect against or protects only minimally against? I don’t know the answer but there are quite a few. If I had a daughter the last thing I would want is for her to be exposed to these diseases, even if she were vacinated against HPV. The choice as I see it is (1) be sexually active, vaccinate against HPV and expose yourself to a whole host of other diseases, or (2) abstain. I guess to you all choice (1) is a no-brainer. It’s not to me.

  4. Condoms provide great protection against infections that are transmitted through body fluids (HIV, syphilis, chlamydia, etc). They provide some protection against STIs that are transmitted through skin-to-skin contact (HPV, herpes, etc), and they’re certainly better than nothing.

    As the doctor I quoted points out, many people enter marriages with HPV already; shouldn’t their partners be protected?

    It’s not an either-or issue here. You can get vaccinated and abstain. There’s just no good argument against the vaccination.

  5. Dan: there are a lot of other choices. Vaccinate and encourage your daughter to abstain. Vaccinate and encourage your daughter to practice safe sex. Vaccinate, and when your virgin daughter marries a man with HPV, don’t watch her die of cervical cancer. This is not a binary issue.

    My daughters? Will be first in line for the vaccine.

  6. Hepatitis B is considered an STI that can lead to cancer and we vaccinate for it.

    One can contract the flu through sex, therefore we should ban the annual flu vaccine.

  7. Herpes and bacterial vaginosis.* And condom use, although not effective if there’s an outbreak on an area the condom doesn’t cover, does greatly reduce your chances of contracting genital herpes. The risk of syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea, PID (usually secondary to chlamydia or gonorrhea), hepatitis, and trichomoniasis are all starkly reduced by condom use–on about the same level as HIV.

    *Can I see a show of hands, please, from the distaff side of the auditorium? Okay, every woman here who’s ever gotten a yeast infection not resulting from vigorous intercourse with several partners? Thank you.

  8. Whoops, sorry, I take that back. The effectiveness of condom use in preventing transmission of Hep B is unproven–but proper use may reduce transmission. And it is transmitted through blood and bodily fluids, so it doesn’t seem like too much of a stretch.

  9. Stuff like this really blows me away. Especially since when I was getting various vaccinations, it’s not like they told me, the child, what they were FOR. And even if they did tell the kid what it was for … argh, head exploding from the silliness.

  10. Truly these people are mad.

    The crazy thing about this particular cancer causing virus is its ubiquity. Last time I read up on statistics of HPV incidence, it was like 1 in 5 across the entire population, and even higher (1 in 4 to 1 in 3) in younger, sexually active populations. (rampant on college campuses)

    So “Susy Christian Virgin” could meet the man of her dreams, get engaged and married, finally have sex and have a pretty good likelihood of being exposed to HPV and subsequently getting cervical cancer.

    The only thing I’ll quibble with about this post is …

    If thousands of guys were dying every year from a sex-related cancer, you can bet that a vaccine would be welcomed with open arms; there would be none of this “tell them to be abstinent” bullshit.

    I have the feeling that some of these abstinence nut-bags would still be whining about a vaccine in that scenario as well.

  11. ok, a more technical, and possibly stupid question, but what’s the success rate for the vaccine in men, does anyone know?
    after all, as an STD, men are the one carrying it, even if we don’t get cervical cancer from it. suppose I hook up with some woman who thinks vaccines are the tools of the New World Order, or, poor lass, her parents were “Christians” and denied her access to the vaccine, and by the time she has autonomy, she’s just forgotten all about it.
    I’d rather not give HPV to someone, either. is there a particular reason we don’t want to wipe it out in the entire population all at once? (like, does it simply not work in men, or it doesn’t actually do anything to men, so we rely on women to prevent their own cancer?)

    I guess this is poorly worded and kinda rambling, but I am a bit curious. what can I do to prevent cancer, dammit?

  12. karpad –

    after all, as an STD, men are the one carrying it, even if we don’t get cervical cancer from it.

    HPV is also a risk factor for anal cancer, penile cancer (present in 2/3 of penis cancer sufferers) and certain forms of throat cancer. So men aren’t just carriers, they can get the big C from it too (though not as much of a risk as women face).

    Considering this vaccine is new, and HPV-induced cervical cancer is much more of a prevalent/recognized woman’s health issue, they probably haven’t checked it out in men,* though I’d bet it would work just fine.

    * Damn “the Matriarchy’s” influence over biotech R&D.

  13. Getting yet another vaccine in the name of improved health is not a “no brainer”. It is estimated that 80% of the population is infected with HPV, it is very common and usually harmless. There are 60 or so strains of the virus out there and only two are virulent enough to cause cancer in a relatively short period of time (18 months). In most untreated women the cancer grows over 10-15 years. If caught early enough, cervical cancer is 100% treatable. Meaning if it is caught before it turns into cancer it is 100% preventable. The majority of women infected with HPV will never even have an abnormal pap smear. In women who do have abnormal paps, even the most severe cell abnormalities will spontaneously regress in 50% of the cases. The HPV infection itself will spontaneously regress in 70% of cases. Women get cervical cancer because they are smokers, because they are low socio-economic status which equates to having no medical care and poor nutritional status. Taking the pill is also a possibly increases the risk of cervical cancer. Whether condom use reduces rates of cervical cancer is due to the barrier or due to the lack of added hormones is hard to determine.

    The rate of cervical cancer in the US is 10 per 100,000. Women get cervical cancer because they smoke and don’t eat enough vegetables. Sound simple and naive but it is true. All scientific studies show that the amount of vegetable intake reduces the rates of cancer. But there is no money in that. When was the last time you saw a commercial for fresh produce that wasn’t an ad for your grocery store. You think that vaccinating billions of women against HPV to prevent cancer in women with no health care and poor nutritional status is treating the cause or a wise way to spend health care dollars? Do you really think that is going to save the lives of these women who still have no healthcare and malnutrition? Do you realize that all of these magical vaccinations are not harmless? Does anybody know the long (or short) term affects of the massive amounts of vaccinations that our children are exposed to these days? When do you think this vaccination (and pharmaceutical drug) madness is going to end? There are an infinite number of vaccinations in the works. Do you realize that these vaccinations are contaminated with animal parts (what the virus is grown on), preservatives including the extremely neurotoxic mercury, and can be cross contaminated with other dangerous virus’? Does anyone think that getting these illnesses, especially the chilhood diseases that we are all vaccinated against, perhaps had a purpose? Maybe to strengthen our immune systems and prepare us from more damaging illnesses Is it possible that the increased rates of autoimmune diseases are related to massive stimulation of the immune system from vaccinations or from the lack of common bacterial and viral infections? Do you think we can just vaccinate away every health problem we’ve ever had? That would be great, then we wouldn’t have to change our behaviors in any way and we wouldn’t have to eat our vegetables, and nobody likes them anyway. And for that matter, nobody likes getting pap smears. Well, if you’re low risk (abstinent, monogamous, non-smoker, lesbian) and have never had an abnormal pap, you can get away with having paps less frequently. But they still recommend having a pelvic annually. You are already there with your legs in the stirrups, is getting the swab so much more of a hardship. With this vaccine, women will stop getting their paps, stop getting their pelvics with complimentary breast exams and start dying from increased rates of ovarian cancer and breast cancer. But I guess soon we can be vaccinated against those too.

    Sorry, it is not a “no brainer”. However, you are right that advocating abstinence is for the brainless.

  14. Dan – I knew a lady who got cervical cancer and she was a devout Christian who was totally faithful to her husband. So it’s not just “sluts” who are going to benefit. Judging from young people’s appalling 25% rate of STD infection, diseases have hardly ever been a deterrent. People – not vaccines, not birth control and probably not even the media/culture – determine their own choices in life through their values and morals. Believe me, I’ve been exposed to non-abstinence education (the teacher even passed out condoms), Hepatitis vaccination, a family that supports abortion rights, childhood in socially liberal parts of the country and a sex soaked raunch culture media, but that never encouraged me to rush out and have lots of casual underage sex. Not because the government tells me to, but because of my own judgment. (BTW, I am a teen girl, so I am exactly the demographic that these people fear will turn into a big whore if I get any information about sex.)
    I’m a big believer in responsible sexual behavior – I think that people should take care of birth control, discuss their choices should an unwanted pregnancy occur and both get tested for STDs before they hop in the sack.

  15. It is estimated that 80% of the population is infected with HPV, it is very common and usually harmless.

    More specifically 75-80% of the population will be infected with some form of HPV at some point during their lives. Given clearance, at any given time only 20-40 million people are infected.

    The rate of cervical cancer in the US is 10 per 100,000.

    Sure. But a wikipedia check contextualizes that cervical cancer is also the second most common cancer in the world (8th in US), and the third leading killer behind breast and lung cancer. This is relevant when we’re talking about the utility of vaccines in parts of the world (or demographics within the US) that don’t have access to the kind of preventative healthcare you are talking about. What’s going to save more lives more quickly? Developing the medical infrastructure to get the planet regular pap smears or developing a vaccine for the third deadliest cancer?

    It’s also probably relevant to note that HPV compromises immunity during infection and increases the risk of picking up other, nastier bugs.

    Women get cervical cancer because they smoke and don’t eat enough vegetables.

    My ex-gf got it and she was a non-smoker that was practically a vegetarian.

    Your points about overuse of vaccines and potential impact on immunity are kind of hyperbolic but relevant.

  16. the media coverage around this hpv vaccine is funny. i read about it in the chicago tribune, on page 1, and the article is quoting doctors, researchers, and….wingnut christian organizations?? you just sit there and think, what degree do you have, crazy bible-thumper, that qualifies you to discuss the merits of a vaccine? an M.D? a Ph.D. in public health? sociology? psychology? anything??

    oh right, you’ve read the bible cover to cover 172 times. i guess, in the eyes of the media, that makes you an expert.

  17. You know, because of sites like this, I’m exposed to the real caricatures portrayed in the media representative of the “religious right.”

    I’ll stop short of the potentially blasphemous “ashamed to be a Christian” statement, but I do frequently wish I wasn’t associated with purveyors of this brand of nonsense (and I mean nonsense as in “non-sense” or “non-thought” or “probably could be demonstrably in a permanent vegetative state if one were relying upon brain activity as an indicator”).

    I implore you to not ascribe this type of idiocy to all Christians, as most Christians (even “fundamentalists”) are overjoyed at the development of this vaccine.

    I do contend that abstinence is the best means of preventing STDs of all varieties, unwanted pregnancy, and a handful of other complications, but I also realize that in the “real world” it’s not practical to expect everyone to abstain from sexual activity. Unprotected, irresponsible sex is stupid. Period. But it happens, and no amount of pressure from Church or State will ever make any difference there.

    To somehow suggest that a vaccine against cancer somehow promotes promiscuity is absolutely asinine, and the statement will unfortunately be used to characterize nearly anyone who claims to believe and follow the tenets of Christianity. In one way, I think it may be fallout from the Christian religion in America getting so far away from solid Biblical principles, but at the same time I wonder if the news media isn’t treating “moral question” stories as they do tornadoes–find the loudest, most obnoxious, and least intelligent person in the trailer park for the interview.

    This story really draws me to the latter explanation, otherwise why would the MSM give a rat’s ass what any Christian groups had to say about a vaccine?

  18. Unprotected, irresponsible sex is stupid. Period. But it happens, and no amount of pressure from Church or State will ever make any difference there.

    This is true.

    So why not decide whether you’re going to be abstinent or not, and then take the vaccine or not, as appropriate. If you decide to end your abstinence and marry, you can test your spouse; if s/he has picked up HPV, you take the vaccine, otherwise, not.

    If you decide not to be abstinent, then you should definitely get the vaccine.

    Not sure why this decision has to be made when the kid is 6 or whatever.

  19. Think of this as the perfect litmus test: to oppose this treatment definitively demonstrates sufficient insanity as to merit involuntary commitment.

  20. This is more of the thinly disgused “women who have sex should be punished.” And since when did all the nuts believe that it was even okay for married women to enjoy sex? I really think we should follow John Robert’s suggestion – all the people who want to live in the 1800s over there, and the rest of us over here.

  21. So why not decide whether you’re going to be abstinent or not, and then take the vaccine or not, as appropriate. If you decide to end your abstinence and marry, you can test your spouse; if s/he has picked up HPV, you take the vaccine, otherwise, not.

    If you decide not to be abstinent, then you should definitely get the vaccine.

    Not sure why this decision has to be made when the kid is 6 or whatever.

    The vaccine has to be taken before a person becomes sexually active. I can foresee a lot of problems with asking a 12-year-old, “So, do you plan on becoming sexually active?” and then not giving her the vaccine because she says no (either to please her parents or because she genuinely thought — as I did — that she wouldn’t have sex until she was married).

    I implore you to not ascribe this type of idiocy to all Christians, as most Christians (even “fundamentalists”) are overjoyed at the development of this vaccine.

    Bo-
    That’s why I included the quotes from the Christian doctor. Clearly, most people (Christians included) favor this vaccine. It’s a handful of ideaologues who don’t.

    the media coverage around this hpv vaccine is funny. i read about it in the chicago tribune, on page 1, and the article is quoting doctors, researchers, and….wingnut christian organizations?? you just sit there and think, what degree do you have, crazy bible-thumper, that qualifies you to discuss the merits of a vaccine? an M.D? a Ph.D. in public health? sociology? psychology? anything??

    It’s that wonderful notion of journalistic “balance.” Whatever the story is, you have to represent the other side — even if the other side is batshit crazy and only represents .02% of the population. You have to give them equal coverage, as if their ideas were equally valid.

  22. Jill, I wasn’t directing that to you personally–just a request to all readers that they not lump all of us into one group, based upon the crap these folks are spewing.

    IMO, that “balance” would be believable if it weren’t frequently employed to reinforce stereotypes (as in my “tornado” reference). Is it really plausible to believe that the MSM doesn’t know this serves to put all members of the “Christian Right” into the same barrel? Again, what purpose is served by an interview in a story about science and technology by going to any religious group? It is akin to consulting the Oakland Raiders nose guard in an article detailing the abolition of the Gold Standard.

    Of course, in the same media that obviously believes we should listen to Hollywood stars’ opinions on foreign policy, this probably shouldn’t surprise me.

  23. The religious right are their own worst enemy. But there is a case worth thinking about around distributing the vaccine and to who.

    It’s not an either-or issue here. You can get vaccinated and abstain. There’s just no good argument against the vaccination.

    Adults can do what they want. If they want to undergo a medical procedure, it’s their choice. But what about babies and children who can’t consent, and have the decision made for them? In some cases we are going to be administering a vaccine, which has risks and side-effects, to people who gain no benefit from it (because they choose not to expose themselves to the virus).

    Once they are in their majority, can’t they legitimately complain that they’ve been injured for no good reason? This isn’t like measles or tetanus, where there’s an immediate risk to a child that requires immediate protection, if we wish, we can delay giving the vaccine until their adults and can make their own minds up.

    I think Jill makes a pretty serious error by misreading what some of the debate is about.

    Preventing women from getting cancer is not a battle we should be fighting? … And why, may I ask, does the deputy commission of the state Department of Health and Senior Services have any control over what kinds of vaccinations pre-teen girls get?

    By my reading, this is about mandatory vaccination of children before they can attend school. If children aren’t vaccinated – they don’t go to school. Very few countries have these laws for any diseases, if I remember correctly the US typically has is for measles and similar diseases. Conditions that are acute and very infectious – which HPV isn’t – so why should vaccination be mandatory, when there’s no obligatory risk imposed upon children by them being in school? This is about the justification for compelling people to be vaccinated (or vaccinate their children), not just about fighting cancer.

    The question about vaccinating men is also interesting: the issue’s been raised before. A good example is rubella. For men the disease is harmless. For women it is harmless. For pregnant women it seriously harms their baby. In the UK policy used to be to vaccinate 15 year old girls, for this reason. Now it’s adminstered, as MMR (with measles and mumps), aimed at all children soon after birth – even though there’s no immediate risk from the disease to any child they may have in the future.

    Should we administer the rubella vaccine to children, even if they are men and the disease presents no real risk? Should they be given a chance to opt out of the rubella jab? Should we assume that women are going to get pregnant, and need to be vaccinated for that reason?

    These are real questions, and there’s a valid debate to be had. Oh, and we’ve got an anti-cancer vaccine, which is really wonderful news.

  24. The vaccine has to be taken before a person becomes sexually active.

    Well, there you go, then. Take it before you become sexually active.

  25. This is one of those things where I usually have to close the newspaper and walk away for a little bit.

    I have a beloved relative who was, at the time this happened, seventeen years old. She was very, very religious but as sometimes happens with young people, she met a boy, fell head-over-heels, and was convinced that THIS WAS THE BOY SHE WOULD MARRY.

    Should, according to her interpretation of her religion, she have sex before marraige? No. But she fudged it. They were ‘engaged to be engaged’.

    He turned out to be an infected jerk. He left. She was seventeen, three months pregnant, and HPV+. Then she got an abnormal pap. So she was seventeen, five months pregnant, and HAD CANCER. This is something that my cousin deserved? (She was treated early, thank god, only because she got examined because of the baby.)

    A vaccine is not encouragement to go screw around. I was vaccinated for hepatitus B, which is only sexually transmitted. I knew what it was for, and thought it was a stupid shot to give a ten-year-old, but it did not turn me promiscuous, I abstained far longer than most of my peers. There are a lot of fundamentalist Christians and other cultural conservatives who oppose vaccinating their children for anything at all. Unfortunately, that seems to be their right. That doesn’t mean they should be able to say _everybody_ should catch, say, german measles.

  26. Nikd – If you are seriously questioning why both men and women are vaccinated against rubella at a young age, the answer is quite simple. In order to ensure that the disease, which as you acknowledged can have tragic consequences for pregnant women; remains virtually eradicated in this country, we must immunize everyone. This is how we prevent preventable diseases in this country–by vaccinating against them. So the answer to your question is, NO. People should not have the “option” of not receiving MMR vaccinations, not if they wish to attend public school in any case.

    Tetanus vaccinations are not usually given as a “requirement” for school, as tetanus is not passed on the same way as other diseases. It is just a smart thing to make sure that your child is vaccinated. I’m sure that the HPV vaccination would be treated similarly to tetanus, and not as MMR.

    That said, I see no reason that HPV vaccinations couldn’t be required for a certain age group, say middle school aged? To assume that because your dear sweet baby says she is sweet and virginal that she actually IS and is not placing herself at risk is naive at best and just plain stupid at worst. I know I insisted I was sweet and virginal for years when I most certainly was not.

  27. With this vaccine, women will stop getting their paps, stop getting their pelvics with complimentary breast exams and start dying from increased rates of ovarian cancer and breast cancer.

    Dirty little secret here: There’s no good evidence that pelvic exams on asymptomatic women reduce the risk of dying of ovarian or uterine cancer. Paps reduce the risk of dying of cervical cancer, but they are extremely error prone, which is why they have to be repeated yearly even though most precancerous lesions convert only after several years. There is some evidence that yearly breast exams may be helpful in reducing the risk of dying of breast cancer, but they could be made a part of the annual physical exam or mammogram.

  28. I don’t have a problem with a child being given the vacine outside the context of any sexual education. What I do find “brainless” is the idea of vaccinating combined with a suggestion that sex outside marriage is not dangerous.

  29. What I find fascinating is the idea that this vaccine can be given to boys — to prevent them from passing HPV to female partners. It’s a new threshold for the involvement of young men in the care and well-being of their future mates, and I am excited by that. Heck, I’ll blog about it.

  30. What I do find “brainless” is the idea of vaccinating combined with a suggestion that sex outside marriage is not dangerous.

    Dan, nobody is suggesting that. Nobody is saying “Hey kids! Get this shot and have all the sex you want!”

    A child gets the shot, one of many vaccinations they get through their lives, and like the other shots, is told that it keeps them safe from a nasty disease. What the parents tell them about sex is a completely different matter, and as a parent, you can tell your child all about why it’s better to abstain. That’s your right, and everyone here is respectful of it.

    It seems to me that parents can now have the best of both worlds on this issue; they can still teach their daughters about sex in the way they wish, and also protect them against the unforeseen…not just if the kid slips up and has unprotected sex, but also if the daughter marries someone who carries the virus or is raped by someone who carries it. I mean, yes, God forbid such a thing happens. But I’d want my daughter safe as she could be, even if the worst happens.

    Cervical cancer is a horrible and painful thing to go through. What loving parent would want to risk having their daughter go through it if they didn’t have to?

  31. Paps reduce the risk of dying of cervical cancer, but they are extremely error prone, which is why they have to be repeated yearly even though most precancerous lesions convert only after several years.

    Actually, on a bit of a tangent, they don’t need to be repeated yearly. Every three years yields virtually the same result. However, the extremely extremely marginal benefits (we’re talking 5 out of 10,000 women catching it earlier than they would otherwise) haven’t stopped doctors from taking the attitude of ‘eh! might as well.’ Which is too bad–in my opinion, it’s exactly this sort of thing that is contributed to spiraling health-care costs and putting insurance further out of reach for many.

    Did anyone see the article on the cervical cancer vaccine in the new york times? Evidently another drug company (GlaxoClineSmith, I think?) has been developing the same vaccine, except that it only protects against against cancer, not genital warts. I’m going to try to believe the best and suppose that they just didn’t have the knowledge to do both, rather than assume that they hope their vaccine will be more politically palatable to the wingnuts…

  32. “What I do find “brainless” is the idea of vaccinating combined with a suggestion that sex outside marriage is not dangerous.”

    Well everything is dangerous. Being in a car (as a passenger or driver) is far far far more likely to result in death or injury then sex outside of marriage. You’re a lot more likely to get in a car crash then most STDs (HPV being the big exception but this vaccine would moot that). Dangerous is relative. You can’t shelter kids from anything that has any element of danger, short of locking them in the house and never letting them out…. but wait, some houses have mold and lead paint and some people are allergic to dust…. do you see where I’m going with this? People are more likely to divorce then get hit by lightening, do we encourage them not to marry?

    I’d rather (as a parent and a citizen) protect people from things that are dangerous AND likely to actually happen. Sex outside of marriage is a lot less dangerous then some things (driving, working with chemicals, smoking) and more dangerous then others. Yet we don’t stop people from doing the more dangerous things as much as we emphasize abstinace in our culture. That seem right to you?

    And just on a personal note, I’ve had upwards of 20 sexual partners in my life and I have no STDs. My friend Erin got the nasty kind of HPV from sleeping with one man, her fiancee (now husband) for the first time only weeks before the wedding.

  33. No, it doesn’t seem right to me. I don’t think of love and sex as cost/benefit issues, but if I did I would put a zero in the column for the benefits of sex outside of marriage. The danger posed by sex outside marriage is both spiritual and physical. However, I will not try to convince you of its spiritual harm.

  34. Until all sex is completely voluntary and the result of informed consent, I have no truck with the “don’t vaccinate until you plan to have sex” line of argument. It’s the same damn argument that denies assistance to women who have been raped and somehow “failed” to protect themselves by being on the pill or carrying a condom or something. That is, it’s called “blaming the victim.”

    Rape and other forms of coerced sex happen in this society, and no amount of good intentions on the part of the female victim can change this.

    Think how horrible it would be for an abstinent victim to find herself infected with a cancer-causing virus through no fault of her own. I mean, geez. Demanding that the vaccine only be taken by people intending sexual activity puts young woman who would like to be abstinent in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you don’t position.

    If she gets the vaccine, she’s “planning” to have sex, and therefore the rape is probably her fault, because she’s a “bad” girl.

    If she doesn’t get the vaccine because she’s a “good” girl and waiting for marriage, and is raped, she’s not only harmed by the rape itself, but runs the risk of being infected by a life-threatening disease.

    It’s easier just to vaccinate children before they are old enough to have to deal with such moral dilemmas. Make the choice for them, so they can make the choice to be abstinent later without penalty, either psychic or medical.

  35. And, by the way, this:

    The danger posed by sex outside marriage is …physical

    Makes absolutely no freaking sense. If two virgins have sex without the benefit of marriage, how is that any more “dangerous” than, say, two virgins who have sex after getting married, or two “experienced” people who have sex after getting married?

    Marriage has no bearing on the physical health of the participants, either way. Anyone who thinks so is clearly confusing belief with medical science.

  36. Marriage has no bearing on the physical health of the participants, either way.

    Marriage per se, sure. Monogamy, however, has a direct bearing on the physical health of the participants.

  37. Yes, but this is Dan we’re talking about. He’s made it abundantly clear that monogamy without a wedding ring doesn’t count.

    Also, marriage frequently /= monogamy, unfortunately, even when one of the participants believes otherwise.

  38. Dan, I think you and I just need to agree to disagree on the spirituality of sex outside of marriage. I’ve found sex to be extremely spiritually enlightening and healing, exploring the very human physical, emotional and psychological experiances you can have with sex as a catalyst. No two partners are every the same and no two experiancees are ever the same, each is a different puzzle to solve or candy to unwrap which I’ve found has made me better at all sorts of non-sex related human interactions. No two lovers will ever treat you the same, which has allowed me a better knowledge of myself. I very much see my body as a temple in the Assyrian sense, and its doors are open. When sex is done right (safely and consentually) in my experiance, it can give pleasure, comfort, connection (to all sorts of things), knowledge, and joy, both during and after – I see no point in limiting that potential to one person, seems like such a waste of opportunity for me. The creation of that moment in all its faucets is a beautiful thing. But I also come at sex from a earth-based pagan perspective that I’m guessing you don’t share and thats fine. However we take different approaches to child rearing as a result, and I would never ever encourage my daughter to limit her sexual experiances to marriage.

    Plus, no one meditates well when they’re all crotchity and horny. 😉

  39. Sarah, I agree we should agree to disagree (which is why I said earlier that I would not try to convince you of the absolute spiritual superiority of sex within marriage).

  40. alextree, Hep B is a bloodborne virus. While it can be sexually transmitted, it is much more likely to be transmitted via blood in other ways (like a needlestick injury). That’s why all healthcare workers have to get the injection (not because all healthcare workers are promiscuous). Kids are getting the injection because the vaccine makes Hep B so preventable. And anyone (think kids) who plays sports probably gets exposed to a little blood from someone else now and then.

    Hep C, on the other hand, often (not always) is a result of sexual exposure. AND THERE IS NO VACCINE FOR IT.

    Hep A, most preventable of all, is fecal borne — that’s why anyone who works food service should wash their hands after using the restroom, and if they don’t and you see it — report it to the manager and the health department AND DON’T EAT THERE. This one can be treated with shots of gamma globulin (painful) and probably won’t kill you but will make you so sick you may wish you were dead.

    I believe there are other, more rare, Hepatitis viruses, but I’m blocking on it.

    Sorry for the mini-lesson here, but I couldn’t pass it by.

    Hepatitis of any sort is A VERY BAD DISEASE because it can kill your liver. A dying liver is a very bad, awful, painful icky death.

  41. Piny, way up yonder you wrote:

    “The risk of syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea, PID (usually secondary to chlamydia or gonorrhea), hepatitis, and trichomoniasis are all starkly reduced by condom use–on about the same level as HIV.”

    What is your source for the foregoing? I found a summary of a study by an outfit called the Medical Institute for Sexual Health. It is much more specific it paints a less rosy picture. The summary states:

    *There is no evidence of any risk reduction for sexual transmission of HPV even with 100 percent condom use.

    *Syphilis transmission is reduced from 29-50 percent with 100 percent condom use, leaving 50-71 percent relative risk of infection.

    *Chlamydia and gonorrhea transmission is reduced by approximately 50 percent with 100 percent condom use leaving an approximate 50 percent relative risk of infection.

    *HIV sexual transmission is reduced by approximately 85 percent with 100 percent condom use leaving an approximate 15 percent relative risk of infection.

    *For the approximately 20 other STDs, not enough data exist to say whether condoms offer any risk reduction from sexual transmission.

    I won’t vouch for the validity of the foregoing (though I have no reason to believe it’s wrong) — I’m genuinely interested in knowing what the facts are concerning the efficacy of condoms. Anyone know any specifics that are contrary to the above? If so, I’d appreciate knowing what the specifics are and what they are based on.

  42. *HIV sexual transmission is reduced by approximately 85 percent with 100 percent condom use leaving an approximate 15 percent relative risk of infection.

    Oy.

    Um, my source is the CDC. Also, what Chris said. Thanks, Chris. A big, wet kiss with just a touch of syphilis for you!

  43. Background is irrelevant. Are the facts correct, or are they incorrect?

    Let’s see… do I trust the Centers for Disease Control, or a bunch of faith-healing, snake-molesting charlatans with links to the Bush administration (but I repeat myself)?

    Also, what Chris said. Thanks, Chris. A big, wet kiss with just a touch of syphilis for you!

    Mmmm… syphilicious!

  44. Let’s see… do I trust the Centers for Disease Control, or a bunch of faith-healing, snake-molesting charlatans with links to the Bush administration (but I repeat myself)?

    That depends. Which entity (if either) has the correct figures?

    The argument from authority holds very little weight, particularly in matters as politically and emotionally charged as these. Its converse, the argument from not-an-authority, is similarly unconvincing.

    As a matter of my empirical experience, people who keep refusing to look at the data and continue to insist on comparing credentials, are often afraid of what the data might reveal.

  45. That depends. Which entity (if either) has the correct figures?

    Based on the track record of the CDC as opposed to that of Talibaptist liars such as the Medical Institute for Sexual Health, I’m gonna go with the non-god-botherers, thanks.

    The CDC might be wrong in methodology on one study or another, but hews to the scinetific method, which allows for self-correction of error. The MISH mines data to suit their repressive Biblical ideology. Do we really need to have a conversation about which one is more reliable?

    As a matter of my empirical experience, people who keep refusing to look at the data and continue to insist on comparing credentials, are often afraid of what the data might reveal.

    Fundamentalist Christian front groups lie. Period. They have been exposed in their lies time after time. They misrepresent scientific studies to promote their irrational ideologies on issues from public health to paleontology. When they cannot misrepresent the studies their way, they make things up out of whole cloth.

    No intelligent, educated person takes anything a group like the Medical Institute for Sexual Health releases seriously. Period.

  46. OK. So rather than compare methodologies, look at the data, and reach a decision about which data source is giving you better information, you name call and make wildly unsupportable statements. Gotcha.

  47. I believe there are other, more rare, Hepatitis viruses, but I’m blocking on it.

    A friend of mine got Hepatitis G while she was in the Peace Corps in Nepal.

  48. So rather than compare methodologies, look at the data, and reach a decision about which data source is giving you better information, you name call and make wildly unsupportable statements.

    Sure, I’ll cop to the name calling. Calling people who lie “liars” is often regrettably necessary.

    But to call my statements unsupportable is not to defend a rigorous scientific methodology: it’s to ignore the rigorous methodology applied by the journalists who have exposed the flat-out lies of fundamentalist christian front groups in the past.

    I don’t spend time investigating the claims of abstinence-only groups. I don’t spend time investigating the claims of creationists or flat-earthers, either.

    Disingenously suggesting that a group such as MISH ought to be taken seriously can be done out of a forgivable ignorance, or it can be done out of a meretricious desire to cloud the discourse for tawdry political gain.

    And given that you’re raising these objections in a thread criticizing fundamentalist christians for valuing their sick ideology over the lives of women who face cervical cancer, my first guess is that yours is the latter motivation.

    But in the spirit of intellectual integrity, I’m willing to hear your arguments that you’re merely forgivably ignorant.

  49. I shouldn’t have to add this disclaimer, but I’ve seen enough blog behavior to know otherwise, so, disclaimer: I’m 100% in favor of vaccinating girls against HPV, and any older women who it might help, and the religious kooks out there who think vaccination==LOADS of evil premarital sex can take a long walk off a short pier.

    But seriously, why is there hardly any discussion of getting pre-teen boys vaccinated, too? Obviously, men carry the virus, and can also get cancer from it – and if you want to reduce the risk of _cervical_ cancer as much as possible, it seem you oughta vaccinate males, too, cause most women are going to be exposed to the virus by sexual contact with men. Is it just because cervical cancer is so much more widespread that (apparently) only girls are being looked for vaccination? Or is it because the success of the vaccination has only been tested in women? (And how soon are they going to test it in men, and for effectiveness of the male cancers HPV causes?)

  50. But to call my statements unsupportable is not to defend a rigorous scientific methodology: it’s to ignore the rigorous methodology applied by the journalists who have exposed the flat-out lies of fundamentalist christian front groups in the past.

    I have no doubt that there exist fundamentalist Christian groups that have lied or misrepresented in their public statements. It would be very surprising if that were not the case; we are all fallen and fallible. However, your claim was much, much stronger than that. You said “Christian fundamentalist front groups lie. Period.”

    Some leftists have killed people in death camps. This is incontrovertible. Is the statement “Leftists kill people in death camps. Period.” defensible, or indefensible?

    I don’t spend time investigating the claims of abstinence-only groups. I don’t spend time investigating the claims of creationists or flat-earthers, either.

    The latter statement is reasonable. Given that we all have limited cognitive processing time, assigning some filters to what we will even consider is inevitable. And “the earth is 4000 years old, and flat” seems an eminently reasonable thesis to automatically reject.

    The report of the group cited by Dan is that condoms have a certain percentage of effectiveness against a variety of different disease organisms. The numbers are not absurdly low, nor do they completely buttress the explicitly stated preferred ideological preference of the group – the group would doubtless prefer that condoms be shown completely ineffective. Instead, they say the data shows a range of effectiveness, from ineffective against one organism to very effective against another. Is this thesis on a par with dinosaurs coexisting with man and ships falling off the edge of the earth?

    Disingenously suggesting that a group such as MISH ought to be taken seriously can be done out of a forgivable ignorance, or it can be done out of a meretricious desire to cloud the discourse for tawdry political gain.

    Perhaps I am being meretriciously tawdry, but thus far we have one person saying “here are some statistics I found” and another person raving about how the people who dare to disagree with him are snake-handlers and liars – but declining to post any actual evidence of any of that, instead making universal group smears and unsupported innuendo. The article you linked is not damning; the head of the organization Dan cited is a board-certified physician who believes in abstinence and marriage as tools for public health. People with a diametrically opposed ideological view find him difficult to work with. He thinks that we should test for syphilis when we test for HIV, and that the first priority for public health should be helping women in poor minority communities. What a nutjob!

    Your attempt to move the goalpost from attacking MISH – an attack for which you provide no data, only unsupported assertion after unsupported assertion – to an attack on my motivations – demonstrates to me that you know how weak your case is, and are hoping to shift the ground of discussion from an area of data and proof – after all, if MISH is lying, then a rudimentary review of their study should provide you with all the ammunition you need to demonstrate that – to an area where innuendo, name-calling and ideological attacks can gain more traction.

    The fact that someone believes abstinence to be the most effective tool against STDs does not make them a liar. The fact that a group is friendly to the Bush administration does not mean that their statistics are incorrect. Attacking the honesty and scientific integrity of a group because of their ideological position is not intellectually rigorous. If MISH has lied, show us their lies.

  51. Perhaps I am being meretriciously tawdry, but thus far we have one person saying “here are some statistics I found” and another person raving about how the people who dare to disagree with him are snake-handlers and liars –

    Yes, and misrepresenting someone’s argument (portraying “fundamentalist Christian front groups” as “people that dare to disagree with me”) is the pinnacle of intellectual integrity.

    Many people who “dare to disagree with me” are completely correct, and I often learn something from them. This is the difference between people like me on the one hand, and most fundamentalist Christians on the other. To fundies, disagreement is anathema. Their religion can only suvive if people are ignorant, and so they set up front groups like MISH to spread deliberately false, data-mined fake science to push their repressive agenda.

    Tell, me Robert: Was what I quioted from you above a deliberate lie, or did you just fall by accident into the usual fundamentalist Christian prevarication mode?

  52. As I said when I quoted the statistics concerning condoms, I don’t vouch for them. Still, I have not seen anything suggesting that they are wrong. I actually checked the CDC site first, but didn’t find specific statistics there concerning the extent to which condoms prevent transmission of particular STDs. The statistics that I quoted happened to be the first I ran across when looking on the Internet after I checked the CDC site. What particular CDC statistics are there concerning the extent to which condoms prevent transmission of particular STDs? Where can any such statistics be found?

  53. re: HPV transmission and condom use

    HPV, in fact, can be spread even with perfect condom use. It can also be spread in the absence of intercourse. HPV is transmitted by skin-to-skin contact. Barrier methods to prevent the exchange of fluids do not prevent all skin-to-skin contact.

    That barrier methods (condoms, female condoms) are not greatly effective at preventing the transmission of HPV makes preventative vaccination that much more urgent and compelling.

  54. That barrier methods (condoms, female condoms) are not greatly effective at preventing the transmission of HPV makes preventative vaccination that much more urgent and compelling.

    Especially since we know that people will be having sex no matter what the church or state say, or how they frame “ideal” sexual relationships.

  55. Was what I quioted from you above a deliberate lie

    No. It was a characterization. If you feel it inaccurate, please feel free to refute it.

    I note that – again – you ignore the demolition of your position in favor of personal attacks, and still more unsubstantiated, emotional rhetoric concerning the many failings of the people you are in disagreement with.

    Chris, what evidence do you have that the statistics presented by MISH are inaccurate?

  56. What evidence do you have the MISH’s statistics are more accurate than those provided by the CDC?

    I don’t have any.

    I’m not questioning the CDC’s statistics – whatever they may be, since they haven’t been detailed or cited specifically on this forum. I’m questioning the automatic dismissal of another group’s statistics on what seem palpably inappropriate grounds.

    I don’t know which group is correct (if either). I just know that “but they’re snake-handling god-botherer liars!” isn’t an argument.

  57. Chris, what evidence do you have that the statistics presented by MISH are inaccurate?

    Let me put it this way.

    I have no direct evidence that the turd my neighbor’s cat left in my raised garden bed does not actually taste good. I have not tasted it myself. I didn’t even go so far as to smell it. I just scooped it into a plastic bag and threw it out.

    Now it is, strictly speaking, entirely possible that that turd might, had I had the intellectual integrity to sample it, have tasted exactly like a fine, lavender-infused Crème Brûlée. I just might have missed out by not eating it. But I have dealt with a lot of cat shit in my day. I’ve never tasted it, but I have cleaned enough cat boxes to know I don’t ever want to.

    Similarly, I have done a fair amount of research into and investigation of fundamentalist Christian fake science front groups. And I haven’t found a single one that hasn’t been the intellectual equivalent of a mouthful of cat shit.

    So you go ahead and eat whatever your religion tells you is actually sugar. MISH looks like fundie tinfoil-hat crap, it sounds like fundie tinfoil-hat crap, and it smells like fundie tinfoil-hat crap. I’m not gonna step in it.

    And speaking of stepping in shit, I’m done in verbal armwrestling with someone who can seriously allege that I ought to take his religion into account when determining whether to immunize girls for a preventable fatal disease. The good news is that more brazen you people get, the more obviously heinous the Cancer Christians’ belief system is revealed to be.

  58. MISH looks like fundie tinfoil-hat crap, it sounds like fundie tinfoil-hat crap, and it smells like fundie tinfoil-hat crap

    Condoms are 85 percent effective against transmission of HIV. Yeah, that’s the main talking point up at the Crystal Cathedral Coalition To Undermine Rationality.

    I think I’ll continue to assess the claims of groups on a case-by-case basis, rather than deciding that all of the “Cancer Christians” are liars. I recognize that your approach would save me a lot of time, what with not having to consider any data or ideas from people with philosophies I find weird or objectionable.

    But it’s not for me. Thanks for the interesting discussion.

  59. Thanks Feministe for talking about something few feminists and feminist bloggers seem willing to touch with a ten-foot pole: religion. The early feminists understood that it was the warrior-god religions that were keeping women strapped down. And go to any liberal political blog today (outside the feminist blogs), and they’re all ranting about the “fundies,” the Religious Right, and the dangers of mixing politics and religion.

    Male gods support male power. Conversely, female deity supports female authority. I don’t think feminism is going anywhere until feminists start addressing this issue. If all gods are male, women will ALWAYS be on the outside looking in.

  60. As a result of all the sniping between a couple of commenters over this issue and the use of statistics, there are two points that I would like to put forth:

    1. Chris exemplifies the reason for my initial request that people not take the boneheaded statements attributed to Christian groups in this original post as indicitave of all Christians’ (even “Fundamentalist Christians'”) attitude towards this issue. Further, down this same line, Athana, you really shouldn’t level blanket arguments towards a religion about which you obviously know nothing. Were it not for the influences of Christianity, women would stil be considered property, to be bought, sold, traded, or “put down” at their owners’ whim. The Bible itself is replete with women who perfomed vital roles in bringing to completetion God’s plan of redemption (many of whom acted against the “status quo” of their social system), and it’s wrong to characterize an entire religion based upon the abuses of some who attempted to utilize its tenets to forward their own beliefs, rather than aligning their beliefs with those tenets.

    2. Nearly any radical point one wants to make can be supported by statistics. Let’s say that 90% of all STDs are blocked from transmission by 100% proper condom use. One side would argue that condoms are quite effective, reducing the transmission rate drastically. The other will use the mathematical computations of that statistic to demonstrate that by the time you have sex with a condom five times, you now have a 50% chance of having contracted a disease, and at the ten-use mark, you’re nearing a 100% chance. Both views are solidly supported by the same statistic, but there are two distinctly different messages offered. For that reason, I think the quote arose (I belive, attributed to Twain) that there are “lies, damned lies, and statistics.”

    Beyond that, this has been a pretty good discussion. It’s an issue that certainly will be significant, although there’s really no doubt in my mind that the vaccination will be given to all children (as it most likely should be, absent any serious and common side-effects). I wish people put as much thought into the Chicken Pox vaccine before making it mandataory. Without any data on long-term effectiveness and the chance of several side-effects, I held out as long as I could, hoping my kids would catch the disease naturally–but they didn’t, so since I wanted to actually see my children educated I had to submit to the mandate of the nanny state. Between the “public health” forces at work, and the mantra that educators and school administrators are absolutely authoratitive in their roles shaping childrens’ lives (not only educationally, but also socially, morally, religiously, and ethically), the next push should be for more parental rights. The trend we’re seeing now will leave parents as one of the most controlled and oppressed groups in American society (perhaps just behind Straight White Male Christian Smokers).

    Disclaimer: That last sentence was intended to be taken mostly as hyperbolic satire, for those not particularly familiar with my tendency towards such.

  61. I wish people put as much thought into the Chicken Pox vaccine before making it mandataory.

    In fairness, the Chicken Pox vaccine had been licensed in Europe and Japan for about a decade before the FDA approved it. It was being used only for high risk children in Europe, but had been given to healthy children in Japan and Korea since 1989. The FDA licensed the vaccine in 1995, and ACIP recommended it for all children in 1996.

    Without any data on long-term effectiveness and the chance of several side-effects, I held out as long as I could, hoping my kids would catch the disease naturally

    On the other hand, worrying about long-term effectiveness and holding out for kids catching the disease naturally was a rational concern, at the time the vaccine was approved. Vaccines in general have a good cost/benefit ratio, but people will naturally be warier of new ones than of ones that have had more time to establish their safety and effectiveness. There was uncertainty about long-term effectiveness at the time of approval (inherently so, as a new vaccine can’t have had time to show its long-term effectiveness), though there was some evidence from Japan of antibodies persisting as long as seven to ten years. I suppose I should check and see what evidence has been collected since about the duration of immunity with this vaccine.

  62. I never said anything about “all Christians.”

    And I’ll be happy to lay off the blanket criticisms of fundamentalist Christians once I hear, I dunno, any organized group of them speak out publicly against the people who you claim don’t represent their views.

  63. Male gods support male power. Conversely, female deity supports female authority.

    Which is why Mexico, which most highly reveres the Virgin Mary, has a peaceful, feminist society ruled mainly by women.

    The idea that all societies had one, supreme god, and the sex of that god affected the society’s political structure, is pseudo-anthropological BS.

    Well, there you go, then. Take it before you become sexually active.

    “Excuse me, Mr. Rapist, but could you hang on for a second while I run over and get my shots?”

  64. Thanks for the link to Hugo’s piece, Lauren; I hadn’t seen the LA Times article before, and I guess I’ve just had the bad luck to only read news articles that only mentioned vaccinating girls (so of course, the first one I read this morning is in the UK’s Telegraph, which does mentioned vaccinating _all_ kids before they hit 11 or 12 or so). Oy; wouldn’t have thought the idea of vaccinating boys would be so frickin’ contentious, though!

  65. “Excuse me, Mr. Rapist, but could you hang on for a second while I run over and get my shots?”

    So we should plan our children’s sexuality around rape? Talk about rape culture!

    Oy; wouldn’t have thought the idea of vaccinating boys would be so frickin’ contentious, though!

    I’ve given it quite a bit of thought, and I cannot see any objection to vaccinating boys; there’s no way they can view it as a sexual greenlight. It would be purely precautionary and would reduce the viral load in the population. Accordingly, I don’t object to vaccinating boys.

  66. So we should plan our children’s sexuality around rape? Talk about rape culture!

    You plan your child’s sexuality? Creep. Most people realize that their kids are going to own their own, whether you like it or not.

    But you’re right that refusing to prepare for the worst will prevent the worst from happening. For instance, I was only raped because I believe in rape. If I refused to believe in rape, I’m sure he would have kept his hands to himself.

  67. Oh that’s rich. Boys won’t see something as a sexual greenlight, even though they could get penile cancer if they’re HPV+ and it develops into cancer, but girls will see the same vaccination as a sexual greenlight.

    You’ve just revealed more about yourself than you’ll ever know.

  68. there’s no way they can view it as a sexual greenlight

    why would anyone?

    “hey dad, what’s this shot for?”
    “it’ll reduce the chances of you getting cancer”
    “oh. don’t want cancer. stab away”

    unless you went with
    “if you have sex, it prevents you from catching a particular virus, who’s only symptom is years later, an increase in cancer risk”
    “but I can still get herpes? and syphillis? and crabs? and AIDS?”
    “ummm… yes. I guess you can still get Gohhisyphiherpiaids”
    “wow. I think I’ll still be using a condom, thanks.”

    yeah, big greenlight, that.

  69. Abstinent girls get raped too.

    Give them the shot, you jerk.

    In 20 years the only women dying of cervical cancer will be the children of control-freak evangelicals who refused to vacinate their daughters.

  70. Oh that’s rich. Boys won’t see something as a sexual greenlight, even though they could get penile cancer if they’re HPV+ and it develops into cancer, but girls will see the same vaccination as a sexual greenlight.

    Oh, I didn’t know that boys could have negative health effects. I thought we were just carriers. Never mind, then.

  71. Oh, I didn’t know that boys could have negative health effects.

    It’s not as common as in women, but apparently there is a link between certain strains of HPV and penile cancer.

    So we should plan our children’s sexuality around rape?

    Uh, yeah, what Amanda said about “planning” children’s sexuality. Yuck.

    I don’t think we should “plan” our children’s health around the idea that they will run out and get vaccines just in time to avoid catching anything the vaccine might prevent. The CDC takes the same approach, fortunately.

  72. You plan your child’s sexuality? Creep. Most people realize that their kids are going to own their own, whether you like it or not.

    Failure to plan is planning to fail.

    Of course my children are going to own their own sexuality. Nonetheless, the values, support systems, and self-identity/self-esteem that they inherit from their parents are something we think about, and plan.

    I don’t kid myself that my children come off my drawing board, but I don’t kid myself that the things we do, say and think don’t have a major impact, either.

    I like to plan for my impact on my kids. YMMV.

  73. I’ve given it quite a bit of thought, and I cannot see any objection to vaccinating boys; there’s no way they can view it as a sexual greenlight. It would be purely precautionary and would reduce the viral load in the population. Accordingly, I don’t object to vaccinating boys.

    There’s a bit of a debate on this over at Hugo’s blog. In short, the objections are:

    (1) No trial has demonstrated that the vaccine is effective at preventing boys from getting any disease. (There is no proven benefit from the intervention.)
    (2) The vaccine has side-effects and adverse reactions. (There is a risk of harm to them.)
    (3) They cannot give informed consent. The decision to be vaccinated is being made for them, and because of (1) and (2) the usual justification that you’re doing this on their behalf in order to benefit them is difficult to make. (The intervention can’t be justified on the basis of beneficence.)
    (4) There’s no immediate threat from disease, and infection happens latter in life. It would be possible to wait until they can give consent, and make the decision to vaccinate or not themselves. (There are reasons for delaying vaccination out of repect for autonomy.)

    It’s true HPV is a risk factor for penile cancer, but there is no evidence that the vaccine is effective at preventing penile cancer (there’s a parallel here with the justification for the trial in women; no-one was advocating vaccination for women before the trial demonstrated that it prevented cervical cancer).

  74. Read the rest of it Chris. The problem is making that choice for a child – doctors are supposed to act to benefit their patient, not other people.

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