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Listless Lads

Rebecca Traister has clearly been hanging with my ex-boyfriends:

I have observed the birth of a new breed of man: a man of few interests and no passions; a man whose libido is reduced and whose sense of responsibility nonexistent. These men are commitment-phobic not just about love, but about life. They drink and take drugs, but even their hedonism lacks focus or joy. They exhibit no energy for anyone, any activity, profession or ideology. While they may have mildly defined areas of interest — in, say, “Star Wars,” or the work of Ron Jeremy — they have trouble figuring out what kind of food they might want to eat on a given night.

Traister sits down with novelist Benjamin Kunkel to talk about what appears to be a new phenomenon, a generation of young men overcome with ennui. Though I take issue with some of the language in the article, this is something I too have observed. I thought the young men I grew up with, full of potential and vision turned listless and visionless, were isolated to this sleepy Indiana town, experiencing what I always thought of as an extended adolescence. It appears this is a more common experience than I thought.

Though, reading this article, there isn’t much with which I can fully agree — from my experience growing up with and relating to the young men described — other than a few passages. For one thing, Kunkel advocates a “sex strike” against these men. The idea rankles me in part because defining what “listlessness” is in real time is so subjective. Nerds need booty too.

Traister does push on this point and Kunkel finally gets to the larger picture:

there is a broader sense of male apathy that I’m sure has causes that aren’t just romantico-sexual in nature. It has to do with the difficulty of finding something that seems meaningful to do in the world…it seems that meaningful action is harder to take than it has been in previous historical times. I think this is the sense even of people who have no historical sense. It’s something that they feel…

I think there’s got to be a reason that the slacker — the person who feels that nothing he could do could really be all that meaningful, so why really do anything — is a more common male figure than a female figure. It must be because the person expected to act meaningfully in the public world, man or woman, has been a man forever. And men then are in a better position to sense some sort of decline in the ability to feel that you can do something meaningful in your life.

Kunkel puts this in the context that although he believes young men are experiencing this ennui in a larger political sense, it has little to do with women. Amanda notes that this isn’t a new thing, but addresses it in terms of feminism and independent male/female relationships to power and identity.

My concern is this feeling of meaninglessness among my peers. To see so many full of great ideas and potential disengage over time has been disheartening to me, or to see my peers hold onto the kinds of teenage dreams I lampooned in this post:

Has goals. Goals, people! And by goals I don’t mean, “Hopes to eventually become a rock star/professional skater/artist/etc. by putting the shoulder to the grindstone, i.e. spending all free time pot smoking, Texas Justice watching, and memorizing lines from Napoleon Dynamite.”

Young, smart, upwardly mobile, intelligent women want true partners. All of my friends who meet these qualifications have a difficult time finding romantic partners, not just boyfriends, but partners. I have struggled too. I used to argue with an ex over all the decision-making that was left up to me.* And though I kid about him with the first quote of Traister’s above, it was ultimately his inability to honor long-term commitments to himself that ended our relationship. He was a good man who was wonderful to me and to my son, but who couldn’t find it in himself to define his own meaning. With big dreams and no immediate way to achieve them, he was paralyzed.**

When the achievement of one’s goals is so distant, and when modern “success” is framed as mere earning power or exceptional fame, it’s a wonder we’re not all floundering.

Nonetheless, it was that paralysis and detachment that eventually led me to end the relationship. I have heard the story hundred times before, including myriad variations on the topic, seen this scenario played out among tens of relationships over the last five years. Because I doubt we can characterize this as a new phenomenon, Hugo Schwyzer sums up my general feelings rather well:

As one of my old friends used to say to me, “Hugo, you’re either transforming or you’re stagnating. Those are your only two options.” Stagnation is easy; growth is hard…

I don’t think any of us ever get to say “I don’t need to change.” All of us, without exception, carry around our selfish desire to stagnate, to be comfortable, to focus more on ourselves than on others. That’s true in my case and in the case of everyone I’ve ever met. Some folks are wise enough to recognize that dark side of their nature, and they spend their lives actively seeking to transform it by reaching out to others and by challenging themselves to grow. Most simply shrug, say defensively “I can’t help the way I am” and demand that others change to accommodate their own needs.

I’ve never held the conviction that one must have a high-powered job or even a degree to monopolize my romantic attention, but there is one thing I usually require of my friends and boyfriends: the desire for personal growth. It is that last statement that I hear so often from men and women alike — “I can’t help the way I am” — that depresses me so.

How hopeless.

For more reading, see Amanda’s response to the articulately misogynist letters that this article produced.

* One of the most stupid repeating conversations ever: “Where do you want to eat?” “I don’t care. Where do you want to eat?” “How about X?” “Ew, I hate X.” “Well, where do you want to eat then?” “I don’t know, you decide.” Rinse. Repeat.
** Incidentally it appears he is now making headway toward his ultimate goal through rather untraditional means. More power to him.


60 thoughts on Listless Lads

  1. I think Traister hits the nail on the head for a certain species of NYC men, though. And, really, NYC women. It’s disturbingly easy to just continue to have short-term relationships into your 50s here, since there are so many partners willing to do the same. I’m about to turn 37, and most of my contemporaries in NYC are unmarried, but the same is not true of my peers outside New York, especially those away from urban centers. The pattern also holds true in my immediate family — four of my siblings, who all live in suburban areas, are married and/or parents, another brother and I who live in urban areas (me NYC, he LA and Moscow) have no marriage prospects in sight, nor are we upset about it.

    I suppose women who want marriage and babies feel more time pressure than men do, so they may actively set goals and get their shit together before men do. I want neither of those things, so I’m pretty happy to just date, even though it makes me a freak among my family and my high school and college friends, who by and large fell into Stepford-like existences in Connecticut.

  2. Wow. I’ve never dated a guy like that. Ever. Truth is, I’ve dated very few people in my life, but all of the guys I’ve spent time with have been amazing — intelligent, fun, driven, etc. I’ve certainly met lots of men who fit the above definition, just never wasted my time dating them (or being around them for more than 5 minutes). Which is interesting, if only because it seem to be a pretty unique experience.

  3. Oh, Jill. You’re young yet. Wait until you hit your late 20s/30s.

    In my experience, the guys I’ve dated who have been closer to this definition in their dating life actually do have passions, they are just channeled toward work. I’ve even dated two guys (both writers) mentioned in the New Yorker and one (a TV producer) in Page Six (the mentions happened after I dated them, which made it all the more surreal), and I’ve just begun to date a guy big in the golf world. All of them got there because they had a passion for what they did for a living and didn’t make time for a personal life.

    For the universally-dispassionate, though, maybe bowling leagues or unions would be a good solution.

  4. My first response, not having read all the links et al, would be that young men are being picked on in an unfair manner. And that, being hetersexual women, you are relating in an entirely different manner than the article was intended. I find that most people, regardless of gender, really do not have a hankering for any particular career path or even hobbies. They appear to seek the easiest possible path available to them and enjoy whatever it is their peers do, until growing increasingly bored and insolar and then (generally speaking) creating crisis to shake things up. Usually, by then, they are in their thirties or fourties (female/male respectively).

    The younger generation of fellows definately appear more mellow and less caught up in the expectations of “being a man”. If one takes stock in the concept that they are highly informed / stimulated in today’s culture, one might expect them to consciously ‘bow out’ of societal pressures at first opportunity. Many men in my generation speak of the lost state of ‘manhood’, they express confusion in matters of dealing with women (do they pay? open the door? or not? for eg). Many women in my generation speak to the overwhelming number of men stuck in the machismo attitudes of the past. Given that these are the parents of the new generation, could this have an impact on way young guys and gals approach the world once out on their own?

    The debate surrounding custodial rights of fathers and mothers that has been floating ’round for some time now, suggests that both men and women are having a hard time re-organising their self-images and roles among each other and in society. Thn there is the way that children are handled in society now, with constant entertainment and very busy lifestyles. There is more to this effect I could refer to as eg’s, but my point is that for many, the ‘way things work’ has altered so dramatically over the course of a few generations, that the new generation has even moreso become a mysterious mammal. Blah de blah, too long a comment, sorry…

    From what I read here, I’d say that whomever wrote the article is dismayed yes, but also oversimplifying to an extent that insinuates prejudice in regard to ‘what defines a man’.

  5. I confess, I’m a listless lad. I don’t agree with much in that article but I do find the phenomenon darkly fascinating.

  6. I have seen apathy and a slacker attitude in some younger people both male and female, but only a few. I have a large extended family and lots of friend with young adults ranging from17 to 30 and most are very hard working and intelligent. Most did not vote for Bush either.

    😉

  7. I was struck by the parallel that Kunkel drew between consumerist culture and modern dating rituals. I’ve observed that avoidance of commitment — by men or women (OK, mostly men) — is often couched in language about holding out for something bigger / better / more perfect / just MORE. In other words: doing some more comparison shopping before settling down. “Sure, I’m happy … She’s great … He’s great … But maybe if I look some more, I’ll be even happier.”

    I followed the link through to n+1 — their latest issue has an article called ‘Dating’ that speaks exactly to this issue. The teaser on their website (www.nplusone.com) reads: “Dating presents itself as an education in human relationships. In fact it’s an anti-education. You could invent no worse preparation for love, for marriage, than the tireless pursuit of the perfect partner.”

    I’m looking forward to reading that.

  8. I felt a sense of resistance as I read this, both towards the author’s words and sentiment as well as your own. Why? Because it’s hard for me to take the psychic trauma of those who are well-fed and well-clothed seriously when there are others out there with much more visible and pressing needs.

  9. the guys I’ve dated who have been closer to this definition in their dating life actually do have passions, they are just channeled toward work… All of them got there because they had a passion for what they did for a living and didn’t make time for a personal life.

    I see what everyone is saying about NYC. But don’t you think it’s partially true for the women here as well? I mean, reading this, it could be about me. I focus most of my time and effort on school, work, and what I want to achieve in life — I’m not particularly interested in being in a committed relationship, any mention of the word “marriage” and I feel claustrophobic, and on a Friday night I’d rather go to a lounge or wine bar with friends than go man-hunting (in fact, I don’t think I’ve ever been man-hunting). While friends from high school are engaged, no one I know here is thinking about marriage right now. So maybe NYC breeds narcissistic, work-centered people. Not the character described in the article that Lauren posted, but an interesting one nonetheless.

    So my final question is, Is that bad? Of course the kind of stagnation that Lauren described is just sad. But what about people who are changing, but self-focused? Who put their own lives ahead of being in a relationship? Who (at least if they’re like me) deeply value their friends and partners, but never feel the need to be in a relationship to thrive and be happy? Is that bad? Am I a young, urban independent person, or a young, urban, self-centered asshole?

  10. Jill, I don’t think this is any kind of criticism against women in your situation.

    I agree with Amanda that women of our generation are part of the feminist legacy, and have been told that they are to take advantage of the opportunities afforded them. The problem is the men who have no sense of being a part of something larger. Based on what all of us here know about you, you are holding up your end of the deal, where the article argues the men around you are not.

    Honestly, I have little experience with the listless lad. I tend to avoid mentally and emotionally draining friendships like that. The hope of the author is that the men you will potentially enter into long term relationships with won’t just sit around smoking dope and playing video games.

  11. I’ve never held the conviction that one must have a high-powered job or even a degree to monopolize my romantic attention, but there is one thing I usually require of my friends and boyfriends: the desire for personal growth.

    Took me a bit to figure out what I didn’t like about this. It’s not your business what he did or didn’t do with his life. You had no right to expect him to change into the kind of person you wanted him to be. By the same hand, he had no right to expect you to be anything different just because he put his dick in you.

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  13. Because it’s hard for me to take the psychic trauma of those who are well-fed and well-clothed seriously when there are others out there with much more visible and pressing needs.

    And I have trouble with those who completely dismiss the possibility that people are allowed to have psychic needs beyond being well-fed and well-clothed. For that matter, aren’t you pretty much condemning feminism here? As long as a woman is well-fed and well-clothed, should it matter to her whether she has additional rights?

    Unless Maslow has been completely debunked, which I think I would probably remember, your argument holds no water for me.

  14. “Young, smart, upwardly mobile, intelligent women want true partners. All of my friends who meet these qualifications have a difficult time finding romantic partners, not just boyfriends, but partners.”

    A few things –

    1. The fact that women have been taking over the percentages in intermediate higher education (and I offer no judgment on this, it just is) is creating a long term demographic problem: a shortage of educated men to match up with educated women. First women have the “there’s less of them than us” problem, now you’re entering the era of educational/achievement gaps.

    And yes, I realize that many of the slackers you are mentioning are educated, just pointing out an interesting trend that will make women pairing up with “peers” (true partners) more and more difficult over the next generation. (and yes, yes, I’m fully aware that the odd construction worker can be a renaissance man that writes free verse about the “gentle bronze slope” of his ass-crack)

    2. The onset of adulthood has been delayed by the largesse of our society. I didn’t fully graps the concept of being a “man” until my mid-twenties (still working on it, actually), and many of my peers had similar epiphanies of delayed maturity/extended adolescence. (One caveat: my tribe’s hedonism was actually brimming with focus and a good bit of joy. Also, ketamine.)

    3. An argument could be made that this listlessness is the result of a male identity crisis. Since men have been forced to curb their dominating ways – in combination with living in a soft, culturally splintered society that have fewer traditional tests of manhood (think “wrestling a cougar”) – they just don’t have a strong idea of what it means to be “a man.” They’ve been neutered.

    Modern women have a good idea of what a “man” should be like: aggressive but chill; able to inflict violence but never inflicting violence; sensitive enough to cry but OH JESUS CHRIST NOT IN FRONT OF ME YOU BABY PUSSY!” – but this can be, uh, a problematic ideal. To a large extent – and as much as you “feministes” wonder about why men haven’t adapted – they partially have, and a certain segment are struggling with a lack of strong gender roles.* **

    * (I’d say that there is a larger argument about a lack of clearly defined “roles” in society as a whole, that’s irrespective of gender.)

    ** (The first argument could be augmented by a sub-argument that aggressive modern feminism that loses focus and overreaches in gender normalization has been the knife-wielding maniac cutting our man-oysters)

    4.

    And though I kid about him with the first quote of Traister’s above, it was ultimately his inability to honor long-term commitments to himself that ended our relationship. He was a good man who was wonderful to me and to my son, but who couldn’t find it in himself to define his own meaning. With big dreams and no immediate way to achieve them, he was paralyzed.**

    Sounds like you need to find yourself a nice Republican boy.

    Well, maybe not Allah up there.

    And finally …

    5. Nintendo.

    The first time that little Italian plumber jumped over a sewage pipe, closely followed by the little blobby linebackers of Tecmo Bowl scoring a touchdown, a virus was released and the digital ennui of a generation took hold.

    Man, you all should pay me for this shit.

  15. I’m with zuzu. I’m a guy in my 20s in New York, and to be honest it’s been longer than I’d really like to think about since I made a serious effort to date anyone. But between school, then work, switching continents, finding apartments, keeping up with friends and the hundred and one other things that make up your life in NYC I’m short on sleep as it is. While I’d like to think that I’d make time for a relationship if I had one, when it comes down to the choice of spending my evening uncertain prospect of trawling for women or just grabbing a drink with friends, the latter tends to win.

    I’ll probably regret it in a couple of years, but it seems like a good idea at the time.

  16. Bill, you’ve said much there that I was attempting to summarize as well. Only a really very heartily disagree that men have been neutered. In order to believe that one must have a really firm definition of ‘what a man is’ and that definition must have been fullfilled at one time, and viewed as terminated. I totally disagree with that.

    Just as it is in individual relationships, when peoples role in the broader society changes quickly, there is confusion and the knee-jerk response is to see that confusion as a negative experience – thus the change is summed up as negative. One might instead take the opportunity that change provides us each, to re-assess, re-learn, understand and see things in new light.

    I am a GenXer climbing into my so-called middle-age and, I attend university with a whole lot of young folks. I do not see the great divide spoke of herein between the guys and the gals. Only I do see that it is acceptable for gals to aspire to dentist assistant carreers, whereas it is still not acceptable for a fellow to do so – he should be the dentist.

    Perhaps this can be used as an example. If fellas don’t want to ‘play the big game with the big boys’ and are not inspired to fit into such expectations… What do they do? The gals can pick up the jobs at the supermarket or even at the corner store, the support staff, the personal assistance, the office manager positions – everyone will see them as well-put together and successful in their own right. Afterall, they are just going to go off and have children anyway, right? But the boys, well, how are they going to support a family, attain status and dignity?

    Meanwhile, more and more women are aspiring for said status and dignity as well as the good income. On a sociological level, where do young men disallusionned or unattracted to the male stereotype, fit in? For some this would cause depression, for others it would provoke lifestyle phylosophies that reject the stereotype. This rejection is not looked favourably upon, because the ‘idea’ of what a man is still looms and has not been replaced.

    What I see is that women and men are handling the change differently. I have many female friends whom have forsaken family and steady relationships to get those degrees and work in male dominated fields. I have witnessed the trappings of the buy-in to the capitalist-consumer mindset by many a feminist. So have I witnessed the ‘lostness’ of young men whom are not morally supported nor encouraged to pave new roads for themselves. Not by their mothers or their fathers, because they aren’t living up to the stereotype, they aren’t measurable through status or earnings, they aren’t driven to conquer the world around them in the plight for success. Thus they are (essentially) viewed as ‘loosers’ or ‘listless’ and thus they may even behave as such.

    Ok…. another long comment…. I’ll stop now…

  17. this is something I too have observed

    Well, sure. You can ‘observe’ anything if your attention is drawn to it. When you’re pregnant, you suddenly notice all the other pregnant women. When you rent a purple car, all of a sudden there are tons of purple cars on the road. Have a faux “disturbing trend” pointed out and you’ll start picking out people you think fit this disturbing trend.

    The idle rich have always been with us. I don’t know why Traister decided to dress it up with this claptrap. Oh, wait, I do–you can always sell a battle-of-the-sexes article to Salon.

  18. David:

    It’s not your business what he did or didn’t do with his life. You had no right to expect him to change into the kind of person you wanted him to be.

    That’s exactly the point. Also, why the relationship ended. I have zero business or interest in carving a partner’s life out for him. But because I wanted someone with interests and goals at least somewhat similar to mine, it just wouldn’t work with this particular guy.

    And don’t get me wrong, this guy wasn’t a hasty castoff. I gave it plenty of time.

  19. Have a faux “disturbing trend” pointed out and you’ll start picking out people you think fit this disturbing trend.

    Well, duh. But this has been a topic of conversation among me and mine for years now — I never thought I’d see an article in Salon about it. Disturbing trend? Hardly. But something to think about.

    Further, the majority of men I know that would fit this description that Traister and Kwhateverhisnameis are nowhere near upper-class.

    Going to class. More later.

  20. Disturbing trend? Hardly. But something to think about.

    Um, why? Idle, overprivileged jerks have always existed. Did Traister really add anything to the conversation?

  21. Did Traister really add anything to the conversation?

    Another overprivileged jerk to comment on more or less idle overprivileged jerks.

    Totally going to class.

  22. I think this effect is called “learned helplessness” – it’s everwhere these days. Starts with being miserable at school and being constantly told that there’s nothing you can do about it, then getting some crappy job, trying to improve things and finding that your colleagues don’t want change, voting for a govt that promises an “ethical foreign policy” then does worse than ever before, marching in your millions against a war that happens anyway, seeing every attempt you make to improve the world being exploited by someone else to make the world worse…

    But hey, I’ve got Aspergers – I can never decide what I want to eat. Still, I can develop a lot of enthusiasm about valve hi-fi, fine cigars, single malt whisky and XO congac… Somehow, those topics never seem to interest the ladies though.

  23. What an interesting conversation.

    I think it’s also worth pointing out, although I can also provide anectdotal evidence for the whole men-have-more-ennui thing (heck, I may *be* evidence for it), that we’re dealing with what may be a skewed sample of women here, out among some of the feminist blogs. Women (and men) who participate in this sort of discussion might tend to be more ‘go getters’ than most people–men and women included–so are more likely to run into the slacker men.

    But of course they’d be more likely to run into the slacker women, too–but maybe they don’t notice the slacker women as much, given that they may not want to date ’em.

    On the other hand–and here comes the anectodal evidence–several of my friends who are women have expressed the same sort of sentiment. I think this has already been suggested, but maybe patriarchy breeds ennui. Having lots of power *could* be very boring, I suppose, and lead to more ennui; if this is the case, then *that’s* one reason why I would say it’s interesting, in response to mythago. Why is it that people who ‘get what they want’ no longer want anything more (to be overly dramatic about it)? It doesnt’ seem right that it’s *just* because they are ‘idle [and] overprivileged jerks’…

  24. ncia –

    Just as it is in individual relationships, when peoples role in the broader society changes quickly, there is confusion and the knee-jerk response is to see that confusion as a negative experience – thus the change is summed up as negative. One might instead take the opportunity that change provides us each, to re-assess, re-learn, understand and see things in new light.

    I don’t see the negative filter as a necessarily knee-jerk response in paradigms that are supported by thousands of years of human evolution and biology. (like yesterday’s discussion on the nurturing instinct across an average of a large population of men vs. women. Or masculine tendencies towards tasks that involve spatial reasoning, etc) To some extent, PC social constructs can try to put square pegs into round holes. In the process, the round holes do become more vaguely square as the edges are worn down by repetition and time, but it’s a much more difficult (often unnecessarily difficult) process than weighting flexibility towards recognizing and appreciating (to some extent) the structures we inherited.

    And I’d prefer defining “social progress” within that practical framework, instead of rejecting it outright for a fantastical post-post-modern idea of how men and women should be.

    Otherwise I take your point, especially about trends in society overall.

    Meanwhile, more and more women are aspiring for said status and dignity as well as the good income. On a sociological level, where do young men disallusionned or unattracted to the male stereotype, fit in?

    At the wussy farm.

    But seriously –

    For some this would cause depression, for others it would provoke lifestyle phylosophies that reject the stereotype. This rejection is not looked favourably upon, because the ‘idea’ of what a man is still looms and has not been replaced.

    I think that we need more “wrestling cougar” rituals, personally. But this is just wishful thinking – society is a free market, and the character of the aimless techno slacker subset is a reflection of what our society has changed into.

    In another 40 years, after the Singularity hits, we’ll all be post-humans floating through the ether and downloading “almond-vanilla-mournful-magenta-soft” flavored orgasms, anyway. Shrug.

  25. Mythago, I would not agree that the people described in the article, or the people I know are necessarily rich, idle or overprivileged. Not everybody who’s single in New York is a bond trader or investment banker — there are plenty of computer programmers, waiters, writers, editorial assistants, set carpenters and whatnot around. Not everybody hangs out at Balthazar and Butter.

    But again, if nobody in your circle is getting serious about relationships or settling down, you’re not going to feel out of place for going through life a bit aimlessly. If you’re living in a place where your friends and coworkers are all getting married and buying houses and having babies, you’re going to feel a lot more pressure to follow suit (as my brother said when he had one of these moments, “All my friends have houses and kids. I have two couches and a kegerator”). Maybe the reason the listlessness seems more pronounced in New York is that you combine a culture where it’s not unusual to be single into your 40s with the inevitable what-am-I-doing-with-my-life moments that begin to happen when you get to a certain point in your working life. It does not require that you be rich or overprivileged.

  26. Is it something literary and romantic, or is is ‘depression’, a chronic, debilitating often fatal illness?

    It is important for ones own health and for the quality of your relationships that you understand the difference and the prognosis of depression.

  27. I think many young men just feel despair about their futures. The empty hedonism might be better thought of as self-medicating: they’re depressed and trying to numb the feeling.

    Consider what has happened to the American male in the last fifty years:

    * Millions of manufactuing jobs have been lost to overseas concerns.
    * Family farms have gone bankrupt so they’ve lost what was once a heritage they could count on for a living.
    * Health insurance and social security? Who would want to live if the future looked as bleak as it does?

    I am not defending every action, every prejudice that the American male holds. God knows why they vote Republican and then head for their jobs at Walmart. Still, as Susan Faludi discovered when she interviewed men for Screwed, men were indeed being screwed by a miniscule class of white males.

    There’s a great opportunity for feminists and others to reach out to “the guys with confederate flags on their pickup trucks”. The message must be “Your prejudices are getting in the way of your economic and social wellbeing. Join us and together we can change things.” Even if only ten percent change their minds, we will have a powerful mandate for change.

  28. pragmatic_realist: Amen. I suffer from bipolar illness and there’s nothing romantic about it. Even Byron and Shelley — the classic romantics with mood disorders — ran to their doctors asking for a cure.

  29. The problem of ennui caused by hedonism is a very old one. And it has a cure: “To save your life, you must lose it.”

  30. zuzu:

    It’s not a death cult. On the contrary, it is where authentic life is found. Those who seek satisfaction in material pleasures are always disappointed — as is evidenced by what has been written in this blog exchange and the article under discussion. But life does have meaning. It’s just not in pursuing the usual enticements of the world — sex, money, fame, status, etc.

  31. Thanks Joel. I would rather engage zuzu and others rather than shoot barbs back and forth. I assumed people would instantly know who it is who said “To save your life, you must lose it” but perhaps I assumed too much. It is in any event profoundly true.

  32. Oh, and Joel? The quote in its actual context (“…for my sake”) would indicate that Dan’s subsequent gloss on it is just a tad disingenuous. (Zuzu may well have jumped on it because she did indeed know where it came from.) He’s not talking about service or good works or contemplation or any of the many other ways people in all walks of life have lifted themselves above the base and material. He’s talking about Jesus.

  33. I assumed people would instantly know who it is who said “To save your life, you must lose it” but perhaps I assumed too much. It is in any event profoundly true.

    Just like when Lt. Calley said they had to destroy the village in order to save it.

  34. (Shrug) I don’t see any reason to suspect that Jesus was anticipating the missionaries who terrorized the Americas for centuries. Renunciation of the pre-religious life and of material, immediate life in general in favor of dedication to [the Great Pumpkin] is something that a lot of religions believe in to varying degrees. Same with proselytizing. Zuzu, you may have some other context for it that I’m not aware of.

    But there’s no point pretending this quote was not explicitly about becoming a Christian. Especially if there’s no real reason to believe that following the advice of the full quote in context is the only way or the best way to fend off malaise.

  35. Piny’s right, you must lose your life for Christ’s sake. The yet fuller context for the quote is this: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it.” What Christ was saying is that you must die to self-centered pursuit of weath and pleasure and follow His way, which includes love and service to others. If you don’t take my word for it, consider what St. Augustine wrote: “This precept by which we are enjoined to lose our life does not mean that a person should kill himself, which would be an unforgivable crime, but it does mean that one should kill that in oneself which is unduly attached to the earthly, which makes one take inordinate pleasure in this present life to the neglect of the life to come.” Augustine of Hippo, Letters, 243, To Laetus.

  36. Piny, I agree that there are echos of the Christian message in other religions. However, Christ’s emphasis on love of God and service to others is unique.

  37. Piny, I agree that there are echos of the Christian message in other religions. However, Christ’s emphasis on love of God and service to others is unique.

    Love of God, yes–not counting the other faiths of the book. Love of the deity you happen to serve, not at all. Charity and service, even less true. Also, they aren’t echos. Christianity is a relative newcomer, compared to Hinduism, Buddhism, and, well, pretty much everything except Islam.

  38. Furthermore, nothing ties love of God to service. You can serve without being Christian, and you can definitely consider yourself Christian and still have very little generosity towards fellow human beings.

  39. It is obviously true that atheists can love and Christians can (and do) hate (and sin in a myriad of other ways). Non-Christians can be Christians without knowing it in a sense. In the atheist’s world however there is no transcendent duty to love. There is a connection between love of God and service. The great Christian saints were able to love humanity because they see it as part of God’s creation.

  40. Trancendant in terms of “tied to some deity or another,” no, because they’re atheists. Transcendant in terms of “tied to a greater good than oneself,” of course. Atheists serve the common cause of humanity when they do charitable works. And, when I said “no connection,” I didn’t mean that Christian people see charity as part of Christian duty, but that a committment to other people does not have to be based on a committment to Christ. Like I said, it isn’t at all hard to consider oneself Christian and ignore Christ’s call to service and compassion.

  41. Zuzu, unless you’re still being sarcastic, he’s not talking about death. The quote involves giving up one’s material, immediate concerns (a life in one sense of the word–a collection of quotidian routines and desires) to gain eternal life through Christ.

  42. I am being sarcastic, but I am also aware that the Christian ideal is suffering in this life for paradise in the next. So no matter how you slice it, in order to have the good life, you have to die, because your reward is not redeemable in this life.

  43. In the atheist’s world however there is no transcendent duty to love.

    That’s right. They do so without feeling they’re being forced to by some sky god.

    That makes them superior moral beings, in my book.

  44. Wow, piny and Dan. You two deserve each other. We start by talking about a legitimate issue and you sidetrack it into a religious argument that has absolutely no relevance. I neither want to hear about how horrible it is to be Christian nor be entertained with proposition to convert. (I’ve already made up my mind — agnosticism!)

    This resembles Washington DC in that we’ve lost the thread, lost a chance for dialogue between feminist women and exploited men. Thanks guys. You’ve helped keep things messed up.

  45. First of all, if you aren’t interested in the way the thread’s gone, bring up a subject you wanted to see discussed from upthread and go from there. Don’t hijack the hijack.

    And excuse me? I complain about his insistence that you need to be a Christian in order to have an overriding purpose in your life and/or a transcendent duty to love, and it’s just as bad as the insistence in the first place? He was the one who decided that the only answer to “What am I gonna do with my life?” is “Devote that life to Christ.” Talk about a dynamic that, if unexamined, does a great deal to exploit women and men. Talk about a generalization that would cut a great many men off from interesting lives and purposes. There’s nothing off-topic about this at all–his statement reflects an alternative that a lot of these malaise-inflicted men are opting into. And, I would think, that many others have been set adrift from.

    His viewpoint is the keystone to a lot of this malaise: our society has so denigrated atheism for so long that men living in a secular culture don’t get to see themselves as useful, important, or potentially serving something larger than themselves.

    Finally, I didn’t say anything about Christianity being bad. I do resent the idea that the only way out of this mess is to go straight back into the ideas that men and women have shrugged off in the first place.

  46. At first, when I read Traister’s article about Kunkel, I was trying to identify with the sort of man they were talking about, since I often feel insecure about my relative lack of accomplishment, especially relative to the women I meet. But I just couldn’t identify with what these people were saying.

    After rereading, I realized they weren’t talking about 30-something men in general, but specifically, middle class 30-something men. Many of them are, frankly, highly privileged, and extremely boring people, with no real interests other than their worthless careers and their empty hedonism. I find middle class women to be the same, only more frank about being greedy and self-aggrandizing. The problem is with being middle class, a position of privilege from which any real passion or compassion may bring you tumbling down. So, shallowness is actually a survival strategy.

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