In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Women Who Die From Illegal Abortion:

Those sluts deserved it.

It’s the 17th anniversary of the horrible death of Becky Bell, who had an illegal abortion to avoid telling her parents that she was pregnant — thank you, parental consent laws:

“Becky Bell was a beautiful, living human being who is no longer here because judges and politicians decided that they were going to be the moral conscience of this country,” Becky’s father Bill told 60 Minutes in February 1991.

In the same interview, her mother Karen said, “Two years ago I would have been totally for the parental consent law, but not now. … Mothers and fathers have both come up and said, ‘Well, we just know that our daughters would come to us, we know it.’ And I said, ‘And I knew Becky would come to me.’ And look where she is.”

This should upset everyone, on all sides of the abortion debate. But leave it to the “pro-life” side to (a) deny the fact that Bell even had an abortion, and (b) paint her as a promiscuous drug-using whore who deserved what she got. Theories about Bell’s non-abortion are all over anti-choice sites, but that information might come as a surprise to the very people who would probably know better than any of us: Her parents. Becky’s brother and father spoke at the March for Women’s Lives, and remain vocal in their opposition to parental consent laws.

As for women whose deaths from illegal abortion can’t be covered up — Rosie Jimenez, for example, who died in 1977 because she couldn’t afford to pay for a legal abortion — well, they’re whores who make bad choices:

Rosie also died after abortion was legal, in 1977. Pro-aborts blame her death on the Hyde Amendment, which banned taxpayer funding for Medicaid abortions. Yet Rosie died with a $700 scholarship check in her pocket, and she was the single mother of a 5-year-old. So why isn’t Rosie herself held responsible for an apparent pattern of reckless choices? And if the multi-million dollar abortion industry truly cares about women’s lives, why doesn’t it extend “charity” every so often?

…getting a scholarship check is somehow indicatory of “reckless choices”? So is having a child? But I thought these people want women to have children. So yes, Rosie should take “personal responsibility” for her situation — I mean, after all, she probably would have been able to afford an abortion if she hadn’t given birth to that first kid, or if she had used her scholarship money to pay for it. Of course, if she had had an abortion earlier, she’d still be an immoral slut; ditto if she had used birth control; and if she had used her scholarship money, then they’d demonize her, too. We just can’t win, can we?

As for the question of why pro-choice groups don’t extend their charity more often… well, we’d love to, but the Hyde Amendment blocks federal funds from paying for abortions for low-income women. And most states have similar bars on state funding (New York does not). Furthermore, any organization that receives federal money cannot pay for abortions, even with its own funding — so anti-choicers have kind of tied our hands on this one. There are also private abortion funds for low-income women, but they are constantly depleted because so many women need help paying for the procedure. If Ms. Stanek wants to rally to lift these ridiculous restrictions, we’d love to have her. But I’m not holding my breath.


84 thoughts on Women Who Die From Illegal Abortion:

  1. You know, I spent years and years on the “pro-choice” side of the street. Then, several years as a “pro-lifer”, at least a “moderate” one. Then, as of a year ago, I shifted — in despair over the rhetoric — to a completely neutral position. That, of course, was almost completely indefensible!

    Reading that worldnetdaily piece made me so angry just now… I’ve been thinking about “coming out” again as a pro-choice voice, and it’s reading things like this that help make that decision easier.

  2. . Of course, if she had had an abortion earlier, she’d still be an immoral slut; ditto if she had used birth control; and if she had used her scholarship money, then they’d demonize her, too. We just can’t win, can we?

    You’re missing the point. Sex is for men, of course, and if the woman doesn’t have a man to take care of her then she’s got no business having sex.

  3. Thanks for the links, Shannon. Those are fantastic funds… I’ve donated to them, and I sure don’t have a lot of money to throw around, either. They really do help women in need.

  4. On the other hand, there are equally horrific scenarios that the pro-parental consent side uses. For example, if a 13 year old girl was being molested by her teacher and got pregnant, and he took her to have an abortion and her parents never knew. Without a parental consent/notification law, it’s all under the rug.
    I never know what I’m supposed to be tolerant of these days, but personally I don’t think that most people under 16 at the very least are mature enough to deal with the ramifications of a sexual relationship and probably need some parental guidance. Pregnancy would make it even worse – childbirth and abortion are huge decisions. Plus, the younger the girl, the more likely that the culprit is an older man, not an age-appropriate boyfriend, in which case it is statutory rape.
    It’s a bad situation either way you look at it. I hope that most girls with reasonable and trusting relationships with their parents would discuss things. I’m not pro-choice, but I think most narrowly defined abortion restrictions are crap – they hurt women who are least able to have healthy pregnancies and raise children, young girls, victims of rape or incest and poor women.

  5. Becky Bell is an irrelevant anecdote. Ten deaths in 1998, four in 1999, and eleven in 2000 occurred from legal abortion. While notification laws may drive women to illegal abortions, the fact remains that an abortion is a surgical procedure with risks. Like any other medical procedure carrying the risk of death, I believe that parents should help make the decision and weigh the risks.

  6. “Becky Bell is an irrelevant anecdote”? Man, I hope you’re not religious, because if you are, you just lost your spot in heaven.

  7. I get so frigging tired of the conservative and libertarian focus on “bad choices.” Everyone in the entire world has made bad choices to one degree or another. Our current President is the poster child for “an apparent pattern of reckless choices” – and he not only wasn’t held responsible, he was rewarded.

    Die in Hurricane Katrina? Bad choice to stay. Couldn’t get out? Bad choice to not work hard enough to buy a car. Couldn’t get better work? Bad choice to not go to college. Couldn’t afford college? Bad choice to not study harder in high school and earn a scholarship. Had a learning disability? Bad choice…

    Et cetera.

  8. The right-wing definition of “bad choice” is one whose consequences you couldn’t escape because of family connections or money.

    Mothers and fathers have both come up and said, ‘Well, we just know that our daughters would come to us, we know it.’

    Then why the hell do these morons support parental consent laws? If your daughter would come to you on her own, they’re superfluous.

  9. Couldn’t get out? Bad choice to not work hard enough to buy a car.

    Bad choice of the state government not to send the readily available buses or just plain send help for the people they knew couldn’t get out on their own. Or, you could keep making up shadow Neocons to triumph over.

    I don’t like seeing people die, but, I have to agree with Earl. An anecdotal story of one woman dying from an illegal abortion? Ennh, just a crass emotional appeal set to demonize Roberts and pro-lifers. I mean, do the pro-lifers have to even bust out the pictures of aborted fetuses… feti… whatever, to have similar crass emotional appeals?

    The debate can do and should do better.

  10. OHNOES:

    Katrina was just an example, but if you think that no one was blaming the people themselves for their choices, regardless of the state government’s actions, then you weren’t paying attention.

  11. Becky Bell is an irrelevant anecdote. Ten deaths in 1998, four in 1999, and eleven in 2000 occurred from legal abortion. While notification laws may drive women to illegal abortions, the fact remains that an abortion is a surgical procedure with risks. Like any other medical procedure carrying the risk of death, I believe that parents should help make the decision and weigh the risks.

    No, it’s a really fucking relevant anecdote, and it’s not an ad hom argument either because the major point behind legal abortion is that illegal abortions kill people, and in fact, they’re killing people even when they’re “legal” but are restricted in such a way that certain people cannot obtain them, like the poor or the young.

    The only way someone could believe that the anecdote is irrelevant or an ad hom argument either has no idea why pro-lifers don’t explode in a shower of mental dissonance (ignorance of the fact that illegal abortion kills people) or believes that there is absolutely no difference between a professional medical operation and dave the alchy ex-paramedic doing his magic with a coat hanger down at the pool hall.

    Either way you’re either being intentionally stupid (Earl) or you are really really ignorant (OHNOES, your lack of knowledge of the fact that neocons have actually being arguing that katrina victims chose to drown because they didn’t work the 5 or so jobs they’d have needed to pay for a car puts you in this category, auguste really didn’t make that out of whole cloth, scarey and as stupid as that is, visit LGF archives or FreeRepublic if you don’t believe me), please, please stop, it’s not funny either way.

  12. I don’t like seeing people die, but, I have to agree with Earl. An anecdotal story of one woman dying from an illegal abortion? Ennh, just a crass emotional appeal set to demonize Roberts and pro-lifers.

    Yep, waving the bloody shirt it is.

  13. I’m not even slightly flush at the moment, but I do want to contribute to those funds ASAP. I will. I believe in them.

    What I am wondering tho, is how do women find out about them? Do women miss the opportunity to get these funds b/c they don’t know they are out there? (I didn’t know). Maybe they barely consider abortion b/c they can’t afford it but the state will pay for their pre-natal care.

    Anyway, I have a plan. Non-choice women must be rallied for the cause. They must take on the burden to save children themselves and they can do this by donating their wombs to the fetuses that other women don’t want/need/afford. They care for the fetus and give birth (C-section is fine) and then they have to care for the child until a suitable family is found (NO Foster homes!!) The men and women who are unable to carry fetuses contribute to the care of the baby, esp since the child-bearing women will be busy accepting another fetus. (And is it evil to rub my hands manically together thinking about the fact that as it will be done anonymously, a non-choice woman might carry a non-white baby? heehee.)

    I’m going to join the pro-life movement and preach my plan. I don’t think it’s a great sacrifice for people so dedicated to stop abortions.

  14. And of course, if pro-choice women contribute to funds for low-income and minority women they get accused of supporting eugenics. Really.

    Lauren linked to a Planned Parenthooh post of mine the other day (thank you thank you) and I’m working on another monster, because we’re having a local struggle over a PP clinic. The local anti-choice group is taking two main tracks: 1) that PP is bad for “girls” and 2) that PP is irrevocably tainted by eugenics from Sanger to the point that it continues the “mission” to this day.

    As Jill said, you just can’t win in the way this gets spun by the anti-choice side. Either you don’t support your moral convictions because you don’t help the less well-off with their abortions (by-passing personal responsibility but at least cutting the government/medicaid out so anti-choice tax dollars remain pristine) OR you do support your convictions and get accused of trying to wipe out those “less fortunate” than you.

  15. the fact remains that an abortion is a surgical procedure with risks

    As everyone with even a passing interest in this subject should know by now, completing pregnancy is about 10X as likely to result in death as legal abortion.

  16. Becky Bell is an irrelevant anecdote.

    An anecdotal story of one woman dying from an illegal abortion?

    Just a minor criticism: the common usage of “anecdotal” usually implies questionable provenance, as in “John Kerry had an affair with that woman! Drudge said so!” Becky Bell’s parents are not exactly the same level of source as a Little Green Footballs thread.

    That said, I am nevertheless compelled to agree with Earl and OHNOE’s argument. After all, it was Jesus Himself who said, “To hell with that single sheep. The ninety-nine others are just fine.” You can look it up.

  17. How is Becky Bell irrelevant? She’s vital to the discussion, as she is the case that illustrates the point: parental notification laws drive women to seek illegal abortions, not communicate with their parents. You just admitted it yourself. Saying that legal abortion is dangerous is almost a non sequiter. Everyone knows that abortion, like any medical procedure, has risks. Illegal abortion is much more dangerous than legal abortion. We’re talking about harm reduction, not wistful fantasies about how all families have healthy parent/child communication so all parents should always be involved in any minor’s medical decisions. If parental notification laws accomplish the opposite of what they are intended to do, and create harm, which you admitted they do, then you have to accept that the laws themselves are bad. The flaw of these laws in action cannot be swept under the rug as “irrelevent” because you still like the principle of them anyway. If they don’t work in practice, you can’t keep them around because the idea of having them makes you feel better.

  18. The numbers of deaths caused by illegal abortions may be small at present (thank goodness) but the number of young women who attempt self-abortions probably is not, and many likley do themselves serious harm. I do not have any “research” data on this, but I talk to people, and I listen.

  19. I mean, do the pro-lifers have to even bust out the pictures of aborted fetuses… feti… whatever, to have similar crass emotional appeals?

    Probably not, but they do so love their fetus pictures.

    Parental consent laws play right into most parents’ terror of losing control over their teenagers and their fear that their daughters might, someday, have TEH SEX. There’s nothing logical about it, and attacking those laws with logic mean nothing. That’s why you see emotional anecdotes from the other side.

  20. I think you are right, Ann, to point out that harmful abortions when safe, legal ones are unavailable are not always of the “back alley” scenario that many conjure up. I used to live in a country that did not have legalized abortion. I knew women who tried to abort drinking or douching with rue tea, or taking a prescription drug with a known side-effect of “spontaneous” abortion. They made themselves sick and might have seriously harmed themselves by doing these things outside of a doctor’s care.

  21. Hey, don’t forget the “multi-million dollar abortion industry” strawman. They’ve got to make it seem like the “abortionists” are raking it in as though they were… evil oil magnates, or something.

    Also, what Dianne said, although I heard women were 11 times more likely to die from pregnancy than from an abortion.

  22. Blaming the victim:

    “Asked in the interview whether it made sense to spend billions rebuilding a city that lies below sea level, he [House Speaker Dennis Hastert] replied, ‘I don’t know. That doesn’t make sense to me.’ ”
    http://www.wwltv.com/sharedcontent/nationworld/katrina/stories/090105ccwcKatrinaHastertrebuild.16ae36a8.html

    “”I mean, you have people who don’t heed those warnings and then put people at risk as a result of not heeding those warnings. There may be a need to look at tougher penalties on those who decide to ride it out and understand that there are consequences to not leaving.” – Rick Santorum
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050907/ap_on_re_us/katrina_santorum

    “We finally cleaned up public housing in New Orleans. We couldn’t do it, but God did.” – Congressman Richard Baker

    “you are dealing with the permanently poor — people who don’t have jobs, are not used to getting up and organizing themselves and getting things done and for whom sitting and waiting is a way of life … The chief cause of poverty today among blacks is no longer racism. It is the breakdown of the traditional family.” – Linda Chavez, president of the Center for Equal Opportunity
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301548_2.html

    “You know, the state government wasn’t very well-prepared and the city wasn’t very — they’re 10 feet below sea level. They should have known that these things could happen. So you can find blame all around.” Orrin Hatch on ABC’s This Week

    “”So many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them.”
    Barbara Bush

    “Because the question is if people know year after year after year a natural disaster occurs in a particular place and people continue to build there and want to live there, should they bear the responsibility of buying insurance or should everyone else bear the responsibility?” Senator Jon Kyl
    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0904polinsider04.html

    Too bad that virtually any place you live will have some natural disaster lurking close by. Volcanoes and hurricanes in HI, earthquakes on the West Coast, droughts in the SW, tornadoes through the midwest, blizzards in the northeast, hurricanes in the south …
    Oh and those “shadowy neocons”? They gave Halliburton a no-bid contract to rebuild New Orleans (I thought it was a joke at first), dragged their heels on oil price-gouging legislation and suspended the Davis-Bacon Act which would have required the government to pay reconstruction workers the prevailing local wage.

  23. To the idiot OHNOES (who apparently hasn’t been following either the past 5 years of state budgets being starved and stripped of federal funds and growing increasingly desperate and underequpped from Tennessee to Oregon, from school supplies to state health clinics – or the bit where the Head of the Army Corps of Engineers in LA complained 2 friggin years ago that 80% of their levee repair budget had been taken away by the Feds to fund the War In Iraq (starting fights with strangers over there so we won’t be able to take care of ourselves over here!) I just want to quote something that another poster said perfectly:

    To complain that in the midst of the greatest natural disaster this country has ever seen, an improvised “rescue” operation with schoolbuses wasn’t accomplished, is to proclaim how little we expect from our government, and from ourselves as the putative legitimators of that government.

  24. Ten deaths in 1998, four in 1999, and eleven in 2000 occurred from legal abortion.

    you know, phrasing something that rare as a statistic doesn’t make it less than anecdotal, either. based on your numbers, use of a vending machine just as dangerous as legal abortion (both resulted in 4 deaths in 1999.) I certainly don’t feel like I’m taking my life into my hands when I’m getting a candy bar.

  25. Too bad that virtually any place you live will have some natural disaster lurking close by. Volcanoes and hurricanes in HI, earthquakes on the West Coast, droughts in the SW, tornadoes through the midwest, blizzards in the northeast, hurricanes in the south …

    and while we’re at it, why not make everything everyone’s fault for poor choices.
    People didn’t have to work in the world trade center. They knew it had been the target of terrorists before. so it’s their own fault, right?
    and soldiers? they picked a job where the only universal aspect of it is to be in a place and have people shooting at you. obviously, vets deserve no sympathy or respect. they chose to get shot at.

    or is the rule you can only blame the victim when Republicans can’t claim the victim as one of their own?

  26. karpad – I was pointing out that people will always be faced with natural disasters no matter where they go, so we can’t just all pack up and leave to somewhere “safe” (which doesn’t exist), we should instead make it easier and safer to live in these places.

  27. I’m going to ask some sincere questions here of the anti-parental notification folks in this thread- and really, I’m not doing this to be a jerk, or to argue for or against a particular side. I have a legitimate interest in hearing the reasoning on the other side.

    Given that you take the position of opposing parental notification for minors receiving abortions (a position not shared by the majority of Americans, but that’s neither here nor there) are there any medical procedures of which you think it IS appropriate to mandate that parents be notified? If so, what makes abortion special or different in your mind from these other procedures that justifies keeping parents in the dark? If not, why not? If you think minors are legally competent enough to make decisions about having abortions or other surgical procedures, do you also think that they should be deemed legally competent to receive the death penalty if they commit murder?

    Please feel free to answer any or all of the above questions. Hopefully this generates more light than heat.

  28. Jon-

    Thanks for the questions, they’re good ones. And I don’t think you’ll generate much heat (at least I hope not, because you were really nice in asking them).

    I think when deciding which medical procedures should have parental notification/consent, we have to take into account what the costs are to require consent. When it’s something like, say, surgery for a broken leg, I don’t think you can make an argument that there will be serious negative costs to a minor if they get consent for that surgery. With abortion, though, it’s different, because there will be serious costs to a lot of minors if they’re required to obtain parental permission. Some will be abused; some have parents who are totally unavailable; and some will be forced into a choice that they didn’t want to make. You can’t really say that about most other surgical procedures. That’s why abortion is different.

    As for the death penalty question, I don’t think anyone should be getting it, so that answers that.

  29. Thanks for your response Jill. I’d like to see what others have to say on the parental consent issue. On the death penalty issue, I’m not a fan either. My point in asking was that some people and groups (e.g. the American Psychological Association, I believe) are vocal in arguing that when it comes to abortion, minors are quite capable of understanding the ramifications of their decisions, yet they argue the exact opposite when it comes to minors being eligible for the death penalty. My personal feelings aside, I think these are questions for legislatures to resolve, yet ironically in both cases the courts have circumscribed the policy and effectively limited democratic debate.

  30. when it comes to abortion, minors are quite capable of understanding the ramifications of their decisions

    A pregnant minor who does not have an abortion stays pregnant. If you’re arguing that a minor can’t agree to abort her pregnancy, then you’re saying she IS competent to decide to carry a baby to term. Explain how that makes sense?

  31. There is also the issue of social stigma. A seventeen year old would have no trouble asking her parents to fix her broken leg, as there is no stigma, no consequence. Her parents are not going to throw her out of the house for breaking her leg. Well, hopefully. Abortion is a different matter entirely. Your question, Jon C. is a medical one, how is this surgery different from another. There are differences (anesthesia or not, cutting into a leg versus vacuum aspiration) but the social context is also extremely important.

    And while whether the parents would throw her out or not is often debated, there is a lot of evidence that young women who otherwise have good relationships with their parents at the same time wwill not talk to them about sex and birth control, much less abortion. I think even with parents who would be supportive of their daughter, and even with young women who are well-off, educated and competent, there is a great deal of pressure to be “perfect.” Sharing the news of a pregnancy and abortion with your parents has profound consequences for the relationship. Are there women who underestimate their parents’ response? But how can we know?

    Even in the best relationships between parents and children there are things that are not discussed. The relationship of issue importance to secrecy is often inverse, particularly with matters pertaining to sexuality. And this is a broader socio-cultural question, to be sure.

  32. To try to define it a little more narrowly, mythago, let me ask it this way: most pro-choicers, as I understand it, would say that regardless of whether a minor decides to abort or not to abort, that the minor is competent as a matter of law to understand the consequences without parental invovlement. However, many in the pro-choice camp who also oppose the death penalty for minors do so on the grounds that as a matter of law minors who commit crimes are not fully able to understand the consequences of their actions. This was part of the Supreme Court’s reasoning in Roper v. Simmons. My question is: do you think that a minor can be legally competent for the purposes of deciding whether to abort but not legally competent enough to be fully culpable enough to warrant the death penalty?

  33. I think I undertand your comparison, but I don’t think it’s necessary to expand the debate all the way to the death penalty. It’s possible to stay within the realm of reproduction.

    most pro-choicers, as I understand it, would say that regardless of whether a minor decides to abort or not to abort, that the minor is competent as a matter of law to understand the consequences without parental invovlement…do you think that a minor can be legally competent for the purposes of deciding whether to abort but not legally competent enough to be fully culpable enough to warrant the death penalty?

    You could ask this instead: would not most people who consider themselves pro-life say that the minor is competent to decide to keep and raise the child? If she is competent to decide to keep and raise the child, then wouldn’t she be competent to make the decision to abort?

  34. would not most people who consider themselves pro-life say that the minor is competent to decide to keep and raise the child? If she is competent to decide to keep and raise the child, then wouldn’t she be competent to make the decision to abort?

    That is a fair point. However, I can also see someone arguing, not even on pro-life grounds but perhaps on simple parental rights grounds, that a minor is not competent to make the choice one way or the other, and therefore the parent (or legal guardian) must be involved in the decision, whatever the result. Whether or not the law is the appropriate mechanism for inducing that involvement can be debated I suppose, but certainly it’s a valid argument.

  35. Yes, but the parental rights and obligations would then extend how far? In some places in the U.S. there have been laws proposed and enacted to hold parents responsible (fines, even jail) for their child’s actions (vandalism, curfew violation, truancy). This really becomes thorny.

    And by the way, I also responded to your question about what makes abortion different from other surgery, but the comment is tagged as “awaiting moderation.”

  36. Yes, but the parental rights and obligations would then extend how far?

    I agree it becomes troublesome when you start talking about criminal punishments against parents for the acts of children, but I think you can easily distinguish this by noting that there’s a clear difference between something that is done to your child vs. something that your child does to someone else.

    I eagerly await your other comment once it clears moderation. 🙂

  37. something that is done to your child vs. something that your child does to someone else

    I see how some people could accept this reasoning for the parent who desires the teen to bear a child (premised, of course, on the assumption that the teen has no agency of her own, an assumption with which I disagree) when the teen wants an abortion. As I say, I disagree with forcing anyone to bear a child, much as I disagree with forcing someone to abort.

    But how would it work for the parent who decides that the child should have an abortion, and the teen manages to disobey, and then (for the sake of example) gives birth in her high school locker room and leaves the infant to be discovered, but the infant expires? We have seen cases where older teens in college do such things and face criminal charges. What of the younger teen? Would her parents be locked up should she give birth in the gym or empty chorus classroom with no one around, leaving the infant? Or in (South Carolina, I think it is) in the case where women can be arrested for not reporting a stillbirth or miscarriage within 24 hours. Do the parents get locked up too?

    In the end I think the discussion we are having about parental responsibility is a diversion. The issue comes down to at what age, if any, is society willing to say that women don’t have the right to personal autonomy. I think that absolutely adult women should have the choice to decide for themselves and that most teens deserve the same right to make that decision. On this I am fairly libertarian…and believe and individual’s personal morals and religious worldview are their own business, not mine. I would not tell someone she must have an abortion anymore than I would say she must have a chid.

  38. And anti-murder laws drive people to illegally murder others. Anti-speeding laws cause people to illegally drive 20 over the speed limit. Immigration limits cause millions to illegally sneak across the border. Come on, we don’t decide laws based around who would disagree with them.

    When I said anecdotal, I don’t imply lacking facts. Please don’t redefine my words.

    if you think that no one was blaming the people themselves for their choices…

    I never said that, I simply took issue with your parodying of the Rightie response. You are certainly not implying that the Federal government should protect everyone who makes a bad choice? Free health care for LSD-addicts? Free cancer operations for cigarette smokers? A trust fund for those who gambled far too much and lost? Be reasonable. I’m a fan of personal accountability, but if you parody it to such an extent, ANYTHING looks bad.

    The numbers of deaths caused by illegal abortions may be small at present (thank goodness) but the number of young women who attempt self-abortions probably is not, and many likley do themselves serious harm. I do not have any “research” data on this, but I talk to people, and I listen.

    I’m not experienced in the realm of women getting pregnant. But I’m 65% certain that finding a condom or a pill or any other means of preventing conception is NOT too difficult for a young man or woman. Heck, I got 5 free condoms from the PP table at my college’s new student fair, not to mention the free Valentine’s Day condoms. Let’s bar rape for just a second (Though I am in favor of the woman telling parents she was raped so that the rapist can be castrated, but that’s just me.), why do that many women get pregnant if there already exist a wide array of means of preventing just such an occurence? Me? I wouldn’t even THINK of having sex without a condom. Am I the exception? Do I expect too much responsibility out of the rest of those who seem to be having a whole lot more sex than I am?

    Mythago said:

    Parental consent laws play right into most parents’ terror of losing control over their teenagers and their fear that their daughters might, someday, have TEH SEX. There’s nothing logical about it, and attacking those laws with logic mean nothing. That’s why you see emotional anecdotes from the other side.

    Am I overstepping to take this as a sign that you openly support youngsters (of the proper age, of course) having sex?

    kate, cite the EEEVIL HALLIBURTON CONSPIRACY. Last I checked, they only gave Halliburton a contract to assess damages to military bases in the region. Also, please provide a list of companies equally suited to such a large scale of work that President Bush should call on instead, you know, to ensure that there is no impropriety (Because you shouldn’t show favoritism by calling on ONE plumbing service or exterminator, even if you are pleased with their work compared to that of others.). Also, please research government contracts to find out how often the government gives contracts of the sort that you’re accusing it of. Thank you.

    bellatrys, I was never aware of anyone that said “Oh, if only President Bush had given us more money, we could have built the levees up and saved all of New Orleans in 18 months!” Last I checked, for such a project to have occurred, it would have taken a matter of decades to build the levees up. That, and I have never heard that the Army Corps of Engineers was underfunded. The 80% figure seems a little out there.

    To complain that in the midst of the greatest natural disaster this country has ever seen, an improvised “rescue” operation with schoolbuses wasn’t accomplished, is to proclaim how little we expect from our government, and from ourselves as the putative legitimators of that government.

    We expected the local governments to follow through with a well-thought out rescue plan and to act appropriately, requesting the appropriate amounts of Federal aid and ceding control where necessary. Unfortunately, it was too much to expect the LA government to NOT practically disentigrate in the face of the largest disaster in recent memory, so clearly the buses are just way too much. Then again, the government should have outlawed any and all greenhouse gases, thus stopping the hurricane altogether.

    Honestly, though, how can you demean the buses when they could have saved hundreds if not thousands of people who could not have saved themselves. Please.

    I don’t think it is fair to assume that every abortion would cause parents to abuse their daughter or what not. Like it or not, abortion is a SERIOUS operation, no matter how you slice it, and I wouldn’t like for it to be entered into willy-nilly. That said, however, I would like to give the girl’s help who, for whatever reason, can most certainly NOT go to their parents, but DHS-type crap is already a mess in this country…

  39. How can parental consent laws possibly do anything but harm? If a minor has a good enough relationship with her parents to talk to them about getting an abortion, she doesn’t need the law to make her do it, and if she doesn’t, the law will just drive her underground. (OK, maybe there’s some tiny fraction of pregnant teens who would think, “Omigosh, I’m pregnant, I definitely intend to have an abortion, but I’d better ask my parents for consent even though they won’t give it, because being a lawbreaker is worse than what will happen if I don’t get an abortion.” Right.).

    Way up in #5 there’s a “what if someone molested a girl and got her pregnant and brought her to an abortion clinic” hypothetical that seems to me as out of touch with the real world as the rest of the parental-consent position. Let’s see: someone has committed rape (either statutory or forcible or both), and faces losing his job, going to prison and being on the hook for child support for the next 18 years. But he’s going stop immediately and fess up rather than forge a signature on a consent form, rather than, say, take the girl to an illegal abortionist, or try and terminate the pregnancy (and possible her life) himself. I had no idea that people had such amazing respect for the law.

    I think it was Priscilla Owen who stated the wingnut position most clearly in an opinion designed to deny an abortion to a young woman who had applied for judicial bypass to parental consent, on the (apparently well-documented) grounds that her parents would throw her out of the house and withdraw support for her education if they found out that she was pregnant. Granting the bypass, the opinion said, would allow the applicant “to escape the consequences of her actions”. Because it follows as the night the day that young women who have sex will have their lives ruined. Especially with wingnuts holding the reins of power.

  40. But how would it work for the parent who decides that the child should have an abortion, and the teen manages to disobey, and then (for the sake of example) gives birth in her high school locker room and leaves the infant to be discovered, but the infant expires?

    From what I understand, parental consent statutes wouldn’t give parents to power to force their children to abort. Maybe I’m wrong on this, but it was my understanding that the consent is only required to undergo the surgical procedure. But I believe you could argue that in any event there are ways of becoming an emancipated minor, if the sort of scenario you propose were to arise.

    The issue comes down to at what age, if any, is society willing to say that women don’t have the right to personal autonomy.

    This isn’t exactly on point, because this entire discussion is predicated on the fact that we aren’t talking about “women”. We’re talking about minor children, whom we collectively as a society through the law already deny or restrict personal autonomy on a whole host of issues, e.g. voting, consuming alchohol, operating a motor vehicle, etc. I’m sure someone else can come up with at least a dozen more.

    Paul, as to your arugment, I think supporters of parental notification wouldn’t argue that the purpose is necessarily to change the teens’ mind about abortion by instilling the fear of being a “lawbreaker”, but to ensure that on such a significant issue that has such clear physical and psychological ramifications for the girl’s future, her parents are involved in helping her through the decision, the same as they would be with respect to nearly any other medical procedure. As to whether girls are being driven “underground” by such laws, I’d like to see some empirical evidence on that.

  41. binky – It was the Virginia state legislature that floated a bill requiring women to report miscarriages within 24 hours or be charged, I don’t think it went anywhere.

    OHNOES – There’s no need to be nasty and disrespectful to people who disagree with you. I’m a conservative Dem so I obviously have axes to grind with MANY opinionated people but I don’t resort to name calling and insults to get my point across.
    http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,1567081,00.html (Here’s an article from the UK about Halliburton, I don’t know if it’s appropriate to award a contract to a company that’s under investigation for overcharging soldiers/contractors in Iraq and recently demoted an employee who criticized them for it.) I’m sure Halliburton is quite capable of taking care of the cleanup, but after the Michael Brown appointment fiasco, I’ve got my eyebrow raised about cronyism.

    To everyone: what do most of you think about parents having the authority on medical decisions? For example, if an 11 year old girl needed a blood transfusion to live and was able to state that she wanted one, but it was against her parents’ beliefs and they said no. Because she is under 18, would she be subject to their consent or not?

  42. All this talk about how young women shouldn’t make their own decisions. I would like to know what parental consent statutes are supposed to achieve, if not forcing young women to talk to their parents – when they maybe don’t feel safe doing it.

    Using the argument of possible sexual abuse / rape, I feel that makes parental consent more unpalatable. Should someone be forced to carry the child to term because they cannot yet ‘face’ disclosing the abuse.

    Irrelevant to US law, but here in Australia a person can visit a doctor and obtain medical treatment independant of their parents from 12 years old.

  43. Kate: parents in general can’t refuse medically necessary care for minors; doctors can go to the state if they see that sort of thing happening and judges will appoint lawyers to make medical decisions on behalf of said minors. That would probably fall under the jurisdiction Child Protective Services and is prosecuted as child abuse. Parents can, however, force minors to accept care minors don’t want. For example, I know of a case where parents were allowed to force their child to take medication to treat schizophrenia.

    And sorry R Mildred, but you’re a fucking moron (notice she got nasty first, Kate.) Legal abortions killed people for the three years I mentioned; illegal abortions didn’t kill any for those 3 years. So, as point of fact, illegal abortions are actually *not* killing people.

    Finally, I’m quite aware that pregnancies *can* be more dangerous than abortions — although, Dianne, pregnancies aren’t evenly dangerous.

    Just to be clear, I think that adult women should be free to have abortions any time for any reason — but given that it is a medical procedure, parents should help make decisions for minors.

  44. >>From what I understand, parental consent statutes wouldn’t give parents to power to force their children to abort. Maybe I’m wrong on this, but it was my understanding that the consent is only required to undergo the surgical procedure. But I believe you could argue that in any event there are ways of becoming an emancipated minor, if the sort of scenario you propose were to arise. >>

    But this is inconsistent, isn’t it? If parents should have say in an important decision like ending a pregnancy, why should they not have say in an important decision like sustaining a pregnancy? The latter is at least as life-altering as the former, as well as more dangerous. Why shouldn’t parents be allowed to force their daughters to abort?

  45. So, as point of fact, illegal abortions are actually *not* killing people.

    QED. Well done. Now I suggest that you inform Becky Bell’s parents directly of your findings. Make sure to include your full return address.

    and judges will appoint lawyers to make medical decisions on behalf of said minors.

    Unless judges refuse to even hear cases involving minors seeking abortions. In which case, who the hell cares? The girls just become irrelevant anecdotes.

    parents in general can’t refuse medically necessary care for minors

    …which, where true, is a horrible infringement of the parents’ religious beliefs. Or, given that abortion is a crime against God no matter what, do you refuse to acknowledge that parents would take that route, joining pharmacists and judges?

  46. Kate, I wasn’t necessarily being disrespectful. Just that “EEEEVIL HALLIBURTON” comes out a lot and I think it is a meme that gets overplayed quite a bit by people who really have little idea how that system works.

    I think it should be agreed that the Guardian is a newspaper with a… certain viewpoint, but I’m not sure of how the Observer is seperate from the Guardian.

    I won’t dispute that Bush likely plays favorites (He seems to be a guy who prefers to play ball with people he knows and trusts.), and I don’t dispute that Halliburton most likely overcharges. “A contractor, charging the government too much?! STOP THE PRESSES!” But even that article states only what I already know, Halliburton has only received a contract to deal with the damaged naval bases, conveniently burying that fact at the last sentence. Please, ask questions about stuff like this, but I’d prefer them to be truth-seeking questions rather than an inquisition into some sort of perceived grand corporate scheme. You seem quite capable of reason, though.

    Just remember, Brown handled, I believe, three previous hurricanes with what I am fairly sure is reasonable efficiency… At the very least to the point that nobody complained.

    Regarding the occasional woman who finds herself unable to talk to others about her being abused, or feels too afraid to tell her parents she had sex, or cannot find help to deal with abusive parents… I mean, what more can society do? Take the average college girl. Blond hair, blue eyes, loving family, all-American girl. Makes a few mistakes, gets pregnant. Would she want to tell her parents? If she got the abortion without telling her parents, she could save herself a TREMENDOUS amount of embarassment from having to admit her mistake. If I were her, I’d do it. Nobody wants to have to admit such a deeply personal thing to their parents, no matter how understanding they are.

    Which is why I think that there should be parental notification laws unless there can be proof that the parents are abusive. Last I checked, most fathers don’t fly into violent rages upon receiving bad news. But for those that could, well, I’d like to think the services we provide for kids living in troubled homes can deal with this, but if they can’t, I would say it is their problem, not abortion’s problem. Those that we cannot help, the singular scenarios called about here, yes, they do become sad anecdotes. Why? Our society is filled with such anecdotes. The innocent man who got the death penalty. The child rapist who gets off scot free. The rich guy who has too much a stake in the media to get prosecuted. The gold-digger who claims sexual abuse because her story is an easier sell. Countless other stories. Our system isn’t perfect, but I do not think that singular horror stories should be enough to completely destroy it. This I believe because we’re also highly prone to introspection, to the sort of self-analysis that picks up on these stories and WANTS dearly to find a way to fix them, but I shudder at the idea of doing too much to encourage open, free sex for all.

    On another note, I take no issue with accidental pregnancy being considered something that should not have happened for the ladies. Men don’t get pregnant from sex. No amount of posturing can remove that double standard. Granted, I think impregnating a woman you don’t mean to should earn you nothing but scorn, but I don’t like the idea of abortions becoming a “Plan B,” a cure-all for accidental pregnancies, removing any responsibility.

    To me, that’s part of the reason why I cannot decide on the abortion debate. I mean, for starters, who wants to see women suffer needlessly? On the other hand, the idea of openly encouraging abortions is too frightening in that we may be opening up a bit more than I want to make available to a youth which has shown itself to be relentless in seeking pleasure. 😛

  47. To me, that’s part of the reason why I cannot decide on the abortion debate. I mean, for starters, who wants to see women suffer needlessly? On the other hand, the idea of openly encouraging abortions is too frightening in that we may be opening up a bit more than I want to make available to a youth which has shown itself to be relentless in seeking pleasure. 😛

    OHNOES, let me jump in here and say that this is exactly the reason that we should have guaranteed, legal, accessible abortions. Honestly, who cares where you “stand” on the abortion debate? if you haven’t figured it out for yourself, then take your time. But *my rights* shouldn’t be contingent on how you felt the date you voted, when you may or may not have “made up your mind”.

    I don’t like the idea of abortions becoming a “Plan B,” a cure-all for accidental pregnancies, removing any responsibility.

    so forced delivery should be a punishment for having “irresponsible sex”? interesting.

  48. It’s the 17th anniversary. The world is a different place — as evidenced by the fact that for the 3 years for which I could be bothered to find data, there were no deaths due to illegal abortions.

    Finally, it’s clear in the eyes of the law that regardless of parents’ religous beliefs they are unable to refuse medically necessary treatment for minors — religious objections or no. If parents decide that they don’t want their child to have an abortion, no matter what, that does make me quite uncomfortable — but the minor will be able to give the child up for adoption upon her 18th birthday. Even if the parents force their child to, say, give the grandchild up for adoption to the parents, that at least relieves the minor of the burden of caring for the unwanted child.

    OHNOES, there were plenty of complaints about Brown’s handling of the hurricanes in Florida. They just didn’t get widespread attention because they are mainly about incompetence WRT disbursing funds. Of course abortions are a plan-B (maybe plan-C now?) for pregnancies — why the hell else would you have one besides being pregnant and not wanting the child? Every time no-bid contracts get handed out from the goverment (especially to a firm as connected as Halliburton) it just screams payoff. I know that the Halliburton contract is ‘only’ 500M, but that’s still a shitload of money. Finally, what exactly is the problem with “open, free sex for all?”

  49. You are certainly not implying that the Federal government should protect everyone who makes a bad choice? Free health care for LSD-addicts? Free cancer operations for cigarette smokers? A trust fund for those who gambled far too much and lost? Be reasonable.

    Wow, the rightwing really don’t care about ANYONE. I can’t believe these are your examples of being unreasonable! As a matter of fact I think it’d be great EVERYONE got free health care, including LSD addicts. And definately cancer operations for cigarette smokers, are you proposing that we just let all poor smokers die? oh that’s right, only the RICH deserve to live. cuz of course rich people don’t do LSD OR smoke.

    i have a better idea! let’s just throw everyone who makes a stupid choice (or who is too poor to deal w/ the outcome of that choice) in jail! excellent idea. Now the LSD user will rot in jail and it’s better we paid for that than god forbid HELP them. Maybe soon you can throw us aborting women in there too! Well, the poor ones. Of course rich white women won’t have to suffer such, but they can AFORD to make bad choices, and this includes teh sex.

  50. Piny you pick up on exactly what I was implying.

    And on Jon C.’s question about women vs children. At some point I had something written about this, and I guess I deleted it because it was full of historical and anthropological rumination. Our social definition of adult and the physical age at which women can decide to have sex, and maybe become pregnant from it are not the same. This results in the kind of disconnect we are faced with in this situation, and the solution we have in the US is some sort of in-between. Teens can be treated like adults for holding jobs, for being tried for murder, for giving blood (?) and other things. They are not treated like adults for sex, drinking and abortion. Logically, there is no consistency, but that’s the consequence of evolutionary processes in law, combined with the social mores we have inherited that punish sin and favor the work ethic (among others, for the example I used).

  51. Take the average college girl. Blond hair, blue eyes, loving family, all-American girl. Makes a few mistakes, gets pregnant. Would she want to tell her parents? If she got the abortion without telling her parents, she could save herself a TREMENDOUS amount of embarassment from having to admit her mistake. If I were her, I’d do it. Nobody wants to have to admit such a deeply personal thing to their parents, no matter how understanding they are.

    Most college women are over the age of 18, so this wouldn’t apply. And not to get nitpicky, but blonde hair and blue eyes are recessive traits, so I doubt that the “average” girl possesses both of them — particuarly when you take into account the shocking fact that a lot of people in this country aren’t white.

    Which is why I think that there should be parental notification laws unless there can be proof that the parents are abusive.

    With the burden of proof on… who? A high school girl who gets pregnant now has to deal with the additional burden of proving to a judge that her parents are abusive? How exactly is she supposed to do this? Chances are, she hasn’t been documenting the evidence. And we have to keep in mind that pregnancy is a time-sensitive thing. Getting a court hearing can take weeks, and when you want to have an abortion, a few weeks can make a big difference. In fact, states that have parental consent laws have seen a drop in first-trimester abortions — and a correlating rise in second-trimester abortions, and abortions in neighboring states without such laws. That’s the outcome. Is that what we want?

  52. I find it odd that this blog uses her parents’ (individuals with no medical training as far as I know) opinions to decide how she died instead of the professional opinions of actual doctors who examined Becky’s body and autopsy.

    Why is this myth about how Becky died only coming back to life 15+ years after the death?

    Second, should we change laws because someone who breaks a law might sustain physical injury or even death while breaking that law?

    Or should we change laws because some people might break them?

  53. Statutory criminality tends to involve questions of safety for the child involved: the child is seen as less likely to take care of him- or herself, and therefore in need of official interference. Take laws against running away, for example. If the purpose of the law is to protect minors from harm, we should look at whether it actually does so. If the purpose of the law is to prevent minors from obtaining abortions without their parents’ consent, without any overall interest in protecting their health or safety, we should look at whether it actually does so.

    This law accomplishes neither potential objective. This law does not prevent minors from getting abortions without their parents’ consent; in practice, it prevents them from getting safe abortions from licensed providers. It will not protect them or bring them closer to their parents. It will give them an incentive to make dangerous choices, and will make them more likely to avoid the protection and oversight of knowledgeable people with their best interests at heart.

  54. And we have to keep in mind that pregnancy is a time-sensitive thing.
    Yes, it’s pretty interesting that the stalling tactics often are ways to buy time. “Oh darn! Since we made you jump through all those legal hoops, months have gone by and now it’s too late for you to get an abortion. DOH!”

    I shudder at the idea of doing too much to encourage open, free sex for all.
    This is so odd to me. Not impeding women’s access to a legal medical procedure = encouraging open, free sex for all? Really? So everyone would just be busting out constant orgies if only there were folks going around with signs saying “ABORTIONS ROCK WOO GET YOUR FREE ABORTIONS HERE”? Women love medical procedures that much, eh?

    I don’t like the idea of abortions becoming a “Plan B,” a cure-all for accidental pregnancies, removing any responsibility.
    But having an abortion *is* taking responsibility — just not the kind of taking responsibility you’re comfortable with. And your comfort level isn’t, uh, necessarily going to be of concern to a woman who’s pregnant when she doesn’t want to be, by the way.

  55. “I shudder at the idea of doing to much to encourage open, free sex for all.”

    That was one of the arguments used against providing contraceptives to unmarried people.

    “I don’t like the idea of abortions becoming . . a cure-all for accidental pregnancies, removing any responsibilitiy.”

    But you’re okay with punishing the mother by forcing her to have a child she does not want and cannot care for. And punishing the child by being raised under bad conditions from the get-go.

  56. Only time for a quickie.

    That was one of the arguments used against providing contraceptives to unmarried people.

    It isn’t an argument you can ignore so easily.

    But you’re okay with punishing the mother by forcing her to have a child she does not want and cannot care for. And punishing the child by being raised under bad conditions from the get-go.

    Tell that to the person who thinks you’re killing a child by doing this. They’ll say “Is death better?”

  57. so forced delivery should be a punishment for having “irresponsible sex”? interesting.

    Damn it, you know I don’t want that, but I also happen to think that morality is not a dirty word, and that a state with definite values is a strong state. If that means passing judgement on those who rush to having sex at the first opportunity (Hint: We don’t pass such judgements. Anyone who passes such judgements are demonized so fast it would make your head spin.), then I am unopposed to that, but nobody wants a young woman to suffer needlessly or a baby to suffer needlessly, but again, that depends on if you consider life to begin at conception or when the infant passes out of the womb.

    Women love medical procedures that much, eh?

    Cigarettes have been legal for generations. There is not a single person out there who could in their right mind dispute that they cause cancer, but for Pete’s sake if I don’t have to suck down some jerkweed’s cigarette smoke every day at college (Cigarettes, mind you. The potsmokers at least have some subtlety when they indulge in their craft.). It seems like I see one student smoking for every twenty. In this day and age, this is ludicrous, and to me suggests that many of these students seek the pleasure/cool factor a cigarette can over the well-documented negative effects of smoking. I’m a college student myself, and I am well aware of the pleasure-seeking urges of people my age. I am reasonably sure that legalizing abortions will result in MORE ABORTIONS.

    But *my rights* shouldn’t be contingent on how you felt the date you voted, when you may or may not have “made up your mind”.

    If you asked me to vote today, I would vote no. I’ve never seen a single contingent of less reasonable, more extremist, more unyielding faction outside of Kos, DU, and the Hennessey article cited further down the main page but not linked! Every testimonial I have thrown in my face convinces me further that those who seek abortion are so morally self-centered that the very idea that the fetus they consider an inconvenience is actually a LIVING BEING (A dependent child, rather than a tumor, a group of cells that controls the woman.) is not even on their talking points. They conveniently lose that belief in espousing ridiculous conspiracies that the anti-abortion lobby is seeking to insidiously control women’s bodies. A claim that ONLY works because they can point to even LESS reasonable people like Hennessey. I love women, I really do, and I want to see the abortion movement rise beyond this, but, dang it, as long as this is the sort of thing a yes-vote to the abortion lobby shows support of, then I will have to say “No.” Because in your oh-so-holy rush to defend your own rights, you don’t even consider the possibility that there is something more to the fetus than simply being a pile of cells. That sort of supreme arrogance characterizes the abortion cause too clearly, and I would not be surprised if there are others like me who wish not to curtail women’s rights, but cannot bring themselves to support what the abortion movement’s demands on defining life as narrowly as possible, and carefully excising any definition that could possibly provide guilt.

  58. So, yes, I would thank you NOT to demand I stand down from voting for not making up my mind. You bring it to that, and I WILL make up my mind to vote no.

  59. But having an abortion *is* taking responsibility — just not the kind of taking responsibility you’re comfortable with. And your comfort level isn’t, uh, necessarily going to be of concern to a woman who’s pregnant when she doesn’t want to be, by the way.

    LSD addicts who are without their fix don’t get to use that argument to push for legalizing LSD, do they?

    Most college women are over the age of 18, so this wouldn’t apply. And not to get nitpicky, but blonde hair and blue eyes are recessive traits, so I doubt that the “average” girl possesses both of them — particuarly when you take into account the shocking fact that a lot of people in this country aren’t white.

    Gah, got me there, but the “what kids want” idea still holds water. Also, last I checked, white people are still a majority for the time being, but if you wanna continue to demean debate by playing the race card, I won’t stop you. Makes my job easier. Just say it. Call me a racist and we can get down to the fricken brass tacks.

    With the burden of proof on… who? A high school girl who gets pregnant now has to deal with the additional burden of proving to a judge that her parents are abusive? How exactly is she supposed to do this? Chances are, she hasn’t been documenting the evidence. And we have to keep in mind that pregnancy is a time-sensitive thing. Getting a court hearing can take weeks, and when you want to have an abortion, a few weeks can make a big difference. In fact, states that have parental consent laws have seen a drop in first-trimester abortions — and a correlating rise in second-trimester abortions, and abortions in neighboring states without such laws. That’s the outcome. Is that what we want?

    Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of getting the abortion when needed and afterwards having to meet the burden of proof, lest all documentation from the abortion be turned over to the parents. But your way works too.

  60. Coincidentally, why do parental consent laws create more second trimester abortions? Certainly it doesn’t take a few weeks to say “Hey Mom, hey Dad, I need to get an abortion.” The corresponding evening of lecturing and talking your dad down from getting the shotgun again, I’m not seeing months here.

  61. LSD addicts who are without their fix don’t get to use that argument to push for legalizing LSD, do they?

    Leave us just bask for a moment in the all-encompassing grandeur that is that sentence. So perfect. So self-contained. So utterly complete in its je ne sais quois.

  62. Let me take another swing at it. My comfort level has nothing to do with it one way or another. But you cannot change laws by saying that those who enacted the laws don’t matter because the women don’t care about them.

  63. I am reasonably sure that legalizing abortions will result in MORE ABORTIONS.

    See, this is interesting, because it’s been proven completely wrong. Some of the countries with the highest over-all abortion rates — Brazil, Chile and some other Latin American countries, for example — don’t offer legal abortion. Yet their rates are as high and higher than ours, the difference being that many more women are killed and maimed in the process. On the other hand, countries with the most liberal abortion laws — Holland, for example, which offers abortions to its citizens for free — has one of the lowest abortion rates in the world.

    Canada, Tunisia and Turkey have all liberalized their abortion laws with no increase in the overall abortion rate. So that argument simply isn’t accurate.

    if you wanna continue to demean debate by playing the race card, I won’t stop you. Makes my job easier. Just say it. Call me a racist and we can get down to the fricken brass tacks.

    Dang, who’s sensitive now? I wasn’t calling you a racist, just pointing out that it’s pretty blind to assume that the “average” American female is a college-educated, blonde-haired blue-eyed white girl.

    Coincidentally, why do parental consent laws create more second trimester abortions? Certainly it doesn’t take a few weeks to say “Hey Mom, hey Dad, I need to get an abortion.” The corresponding evening of lecturing and talking your dad down from getting the shotgun again, I’m not seeing months here.

    Well, considering that the vast majority of underage women who have abortions do tell their parents, I think it’s pretty safe to say that many of those who don’t have some sort of family problem. So yes, it does take weeks to get things like a judicial bypass; or, if that doesn’t work, it can take weeks to find a social worker who will help you, or to strategize and find a good time to talk to your parents — if you’re fearing abuse, you’re not just going to bring up your pregnancy over dinner. Then there’s just the basic factor that when people are nervous about admitting something, they find a way to avoid it — so young people put off having the conversation with their parents if they think they’re gonna get the shit beat out of them. That’s why second-trimester abortions increase.

  64. Because in your oh-so-holy rush to defend your own rights, you don’t even consider the possibility that there is something more to the fetus than simply being a pile of cells.

    And you know what we all think and have considered because…? Awfully presumptuous of you. Isn’t it possible that women could be very well aware of what zygotes, embryos, and fetuses are AND what they represent (c’mon — give us SOME credit, okay?) and STILL NOT WANT TO BE PREGNANT?

    Also, how nice that you think wanting control over your own body is equal to being addicted to drugs.

  65. Jill-
    Some interesting statistics:
    The ten states with the most out-of-wedlock births: LA, MS, NM, SC, DE, AZ, FL, GA, NV, AK. FL, GA, NV and DE have fairly high abortion rates, but the rest are moderate or low.
    The ten states with the most teen births: MS, TX, NM, AZ, AK, LA, OK, GA, AL, TN. Except for GA, most of those states have either moderate or low rates of abortion.
    Except for DE (possibly NM and NV), all of the states on both lists are very conservative and probably have restricted abortion laws. Any thoughts?

    (sources peskyfacts.com and Kaiser Family Foundation)

  66. 60.

    b. Go ask someone who’s being tortured if death is preferable. They’d say yes. That’s what torture is.

    a. Of course you can ignore it. Are you kidding?

    The question is: those who are in favor of the government forcing children to be borne by mothers who already know they can’t care for them properly and therefore don’t want them to be born–leaving these children to be more likely to be abused and neglected, and more likely to endanger the rest of society by engaging in criminal behavior–you guys ok with that?

    I’m not.

  67. Anyhow, 60, speaking personally, I’m Buddhist, so don’t try to go mano-a-mano with me on the not-taking-life thing, ’cause I’m waaay more attuned to that than you are, right from the get-go.

  68. Out of curiosity, can anyone actually get addicted to LSD beyond an emotional level. I’m quite sure LSD is non-addictive. At least, my teen years tell me so.

  69. Jill-
    Some interesting statistics:
    The ten states with the most out-of-wedlock births: LA, MS, NM, SC, DE, AZ, FL, GA, NV, AK. FL, GA, NV and DE have fairly high abortion rates, but the rest are moderate or low.
    The ten states with the most teen births: MS, TX, NM, AZ, AK, LA, OK, GA, AL, TN. Except for GA, most of those states have either moderate or low rates of abortion.
    Except for DE (possibly NM and NV), all of the states on both lists are very conservative and probably have restricted abortion laws. Any thoughts?

    Thanks for posting those stats, Kate. One thing to keep in mind with state-by-state abortion rates is that some states restrict abortion so heavily that it’s nearly impossible for women to get the procedure done there, so they go to neighboring states for it. New York, for example, has a higher abortion rate because women come from all over the eastern half of the country to have their procedures done here — in my volunteer work I’ve met women from Pennsylvania, Florida, all over the place. So that’s important to keep in mind as well when reading abortion stats.

    I’d just like to add that the states with the most restrictive abortion laws are also the states that dedicate the least amount of resources to things like adoption programs, head start, preschool programs, childhood nutrition programs, and other things that actually help women and their children (and help at-risk children live in better circumstances). So, you know… so much for caring about those babies.

  70. Certainly it doesn’t take a few weeks to say “Hey Mom, hey Dad, I need to get an abortion.”

    You were never a teenager, right?

    Because I really have no problem imagining a teenage girl taking weeks to a) figure out and admit to herself she’s pregnant and b) work up to telling her parents.

    I don’t like the idea of abortions becoming a “Plan B,” a cure-all for accidental pregnancies, removing any responsibility.

    I don’t like the idea of seatbelts being a “Plan B,” removing any responsibility for driving safely.

    I don’t like the idea of root canals being a “Plan B,” removing any responsibility for basic dental hygiene.

    I don’t like the idea of crutches and casts being a “Plan B,” removing any responsibility for skiing on a slope for which you’re not of the right skill level.

  71. See, this is interesting, because it’s been proven completely wrong. Some of the countries with the highest over-all abortion rates — Brazil, Chile and some other Latin American countries, for example — don’t offer legal abortion. Yet their rates are as high and higher than ours, the difference being that many more women are killed and maimed in the process. On the other hand, countries with the most liberal abortion laws — Holland, for example, which offers abortions to its citizens for free — has one of the lowest abortion rates in the world.

    Canada, Tunisia and Turkey have all liberalized their abortion laws with no increase in the overall abortion rate. So that argument simply isn’t accurate.

    Correlation vs. causation. We don’t run the kind of welfare safety net that most of those countries do, which I’m sure we can agree is an indirect abortion causer.

    Go ask someone who’s being tortured if death is preferable. They’d say yes. That’s what torture is.

    Ask the fetus then if you so equate a life of poverty to a single mother (Or a life in an adoption agency) to torture. Or you could call abortion “Euthanasia because I can not give the child an existence that isn’t torture.”

    I like these teen pregnancy stats myself. Not too much different , but they’re skewed pretty much how I figured. Large population concentrations = higher teen pregnancy per 1000.

    The question is: those who are in favor of the government forcing children to be borne by mothers who already know they can’t care for them properly and therefore don’t want them to be born–leaving these children to be more likely to be abused and neglected, and more likely to endanger the rest of society by engaging in criminal behavior–you guys ok with that?

    So we should kill them for our convenience?

    And you know what we all think and have considered because…? Awfully presumptuous of you. Isn’t it possible that women could be very well aware of what zygotes, embryos, and fetuses are AND what they represent (c’mon — give us SOME credit, okay?) and STILL NOT WANT TO BE PREGNANT?

    I want to think that. I really, really try, but it is so hard in that that message doesn’t get portrayed nearly enough. The abortion debate is so polarized.

    Hrrrrm, I was under the impression that given its effects, LSD was physically addictive, but it turns out that you crazy college girls are correct. Only psychologicially addictive.

    Also, how nice that you think wanting control over your own body is equal to being addicted to drugs.

    I chose that example because, if you disregard the connotations, drug use proponents commonly use the argument that it is only affecting their own bodies and thus there should not be laws against it. Clearly, that bird doesn’t fly, so I don’t see why a similar argument should be a golden bullet for a much more complex issue such as abortion.

  72. Out of curiosity, can anyone actually get addicted to LSD beyond an emotional level. I’m quite sure LSD is non-addictive. At least, my teen years tell me so.

    Mine too. This seems to confirm my admittedly distorted memories of the subject, that for a few days after a trip, even massive doses had no effect – which would work against addiction.

    I’ve certainly known a bunch of addicts in my life, and I’ve known a bunch of people who dropped acid, and I’ve never known anyone who was addicted to acid, physically or psychologically.

    I especially like this passage from the Wikipedia article linked above:

    Many experts consider drugs such as LSD to be a sort of anti-drug (encourages users to stop using drugs), as it forces the user to face issues and problems in that individual’s psyche. In contrast, the harder drugs (alcohol, heroin, and cocaine) are used to escape from reality. Studies in the 1950s in using LSD to treat alcoholism professed a 50% success rate. Alcoholics Anonymous, on the other hand, has a success rate of 5% or less.

  73. Wikipedia is… well, written by the users. Let’s not kid. It isn’t perfect.

    But, as I admitted, I did quick research, LSD is not particularly physically addictive, and it doesn’t hold steady grasp on psychological addiction, but the latter still exists.

  74. I chose that example because, if you disregard the connotations, drug use proponents commonly use the argument that it is only affecting their own bodies and thus there should not be laws against it. Clearly, that bird doesn’t fly, so I don’t see why a similar argument should be a golden bullet for a much more complex issue such as abortion.

    Well, let’s see. A, it’s insulting, and B, I don’t think it often happens that someone becomes addicted to illegal drugs because they couldn’t afford NOT to, or because they’d otherwise die.

  75. Anne:

    Don’t you think that in “controlling her own body” a pregnant woman bears responsibility to the young life she is carrying?

  76. Dear OHNOES,

    You, sir, are an asshole. Also, an idiot. Also, there is no need for all those caps.

    There is, however, one statement you make with which I find myself in wholehearted agreement.

    I’m not experienced in the realm of women getting pregnant.

    I therefore entreat you to get over your irrelevant self, go on a lengthy acid trip, and please forget to write.

    Bon Voyage,
    Hissy Cat

  77. here’s a thought: girl gets pregnant. girl talks to parents and they say no to the abortion. they make the decison for her and they expect her to give up the child when it is born.

    question: what makes any of us think that this girl isn’t going to feel resentful, not take care of herself and baby, take drugs and alcohol based on that anger (and carrying to term is a prison sentence for those who don’t wish to be pregnant) and otherwise, say, toss herself down the stairs or behave recklessly in other ways? I mean, we’re forgetting that there is the whole pregnancy here that a woman has to go through.

    By the way, abuse isn’t always physical. It can be emotional and psychological. It can manifest itself in ways such as the parents withholding college funds or money or permission to get a driver’s permit or a parent refusing to speak to their daughter for a year (that happened to a friend of mine) or a million different ways. Once my mother took my bed away b/c she thought I slept too much. I slept on the floor. Is that abuse? Will it fly with a judge?

    If it were me, I’d try the double up on the birth control pills far to late for it to be safe (or work). I’d try douching with alcohol or whatever I could come up with rather than talk to a parent.

    When women (or teens) do not want to be pregnant, they do not want to be pregnant. End of story. And when they don’t want to notify anyone, they should have that option.

Comments are currently closed.