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Questions…and generalized misanthropy.

Ren

Right then…in my intro post I described myself as curmudgeonly, I think now is where and when I exhibit how and possibly why…

It will, undoubtedly, be asked, either in public or on the aside what I am doing blogging here since I do not identify as a feminist.  Let’s go ahead and say right now that I’m here because I was asked to be here, and you can save your wondering because whatever one might say about it has already been said and the question just clogs up the comment threads…so, if you want answers on that one, read last years intro post and save everyone some time.  However, the why I don’t ID that way…well, let me show you.  No, what I am about to do is not particularly nice, but then again, when this is tolerated and unquestioned as appropriate feminist behavior…well. that’s just not something I can overlook.  I mean, there is a lot of (IMHO) woman hating in the following group of words.  The topic, porn, the statement:  “Do I want to look at some plastic-surgery enhanced woman who doesn’t even look human being porked”, the subject, how women who perform in porn (or are in the sex industry at large) suffer from Stockholm Syndrome.

Now see, that just chaps my ass in all the wrong ways.  I mean, a huge thing that you see coming from anti porn feminists is that they hate the porn because it dehumanizes and degrades the women in it.  But see, I am not sure how someone saying those very women do not even look like human beings is anything but dehumanizing and degrading?  You know what?  I am willing to bet that every single woman in porn breathes, sleeps, eats, gets the occassional zit or dry skin, sweats, thinks, has emotions, and does every other thing that qualifies her as human.  Hell, I will go as far as to say, holy shit, those women are real women too!  Enhanced or not.  They are…get this…people.  They might never actually get treated like real people, but sweet Krishna on a Lotus, they are!  So yeah, I have issues identifying with or as a memeber of a group of people who refuses to see them as such.  I can’t be a part of something where those women serve as one of two things:  victim poster girl of the week or non-human being.  Don’t like it?  Well, this surgically enhanced cyborg fails to care.  I have my reasons, and yep, sure enough, I think they are good ones.

And nah, I’m not done yet.

I was looking over the Feministe linkage today, and I started to wonder… “what the hell am I doing here?”  Yep, this is my third stint here- but I’d not noticed this until today.  This summer, a lot of (well, three so far that I’ve noticed) of the guest bloggers are sex workers and sex worker activists.  I suspect that perhaps the group of us were asked to be here because of that…yet…I see no links to sex worker blogs here at feministe…no Bound Not Gagged, no waking vixen, so on, no links to sex worker outreach orgs like Scarlet Alliance or SWOP, HIPS, or UBUNTU, and no links to Sex Worker media like $Pread or the Sex Workers Art Show.    See, IMHO, sex workers rights and outreach are not a summertime gig, they are a full time gig, and while yes, I am a bit of a loud-mouthed angry freakshow who causes strife merely by breathing, if one is interested in these things enough to have three of us for the summer tour, perhaps an all year commitment or at least  links to those who feel it is so is in order?  I would at least expect BnG to get a link in the blogroll or something. 

Gods I have no manners, I am calling out the folk who were nice enough to let me blog here.  Eh, such is life.

And when people ask me, as the non-identifying sort what is wrong in the world today as far as women and girls are concerned…well, this sort of thing (warning, may be triggering) bothers me more than pole dancing classes and what Michelle Obama was wearing…yet you know, I saw two, and only two, blog posts about it.  There may have been more, but I read a lot of blogs, and I saw…two. 

Sheesh, you see what a buzz-kill this teehee fun expat feminist becomes when she has insomnia?  Next thing you know, I will be on about plastic surgery…and filming what they are doing to my neck so you can see how fun that is too!  Glitter glitter!

39 thoughts on Questions…and generalized misanthropy.

  1. I saw that article yesterday or today – it really highlights how different my world is from that of people who are raised to believe that being raped can bring shame on a family. This is why I support cultural diversity, but not cultural preservation.

    But mostly – I enjoyed this post. Thanks.

  2. Your comment about women not liking the look of plastic surgery in porn is certainly valid. Maybe feminists are sometimes not careful with their language about women and men in porn. They are obviously people, but they are presented as idealised sex-bots (pool-boy-slash-sex-bot in some cases, I guess). Maybe we do need to make verbalised distinctions between the people in porn and how the porn represents them. However, I’d argue that feminists say a lot more about porn than this, and not wanting to see unrealistic bodies in porn is a legitimate personal preference, so in some cases it’s fine to say in a respectful tone. (If pubic hair comes back into vogue, I would find mainstream porn more palatable.)

    But your argument ignores a lot of farther reaching ramifications. It ignores how those plastic-surgery-et al. enhancements really impact cultural expectations of beauty. It ignores how women feel the need to live up to those impossible standards. By the same token, doesn’t your logic also suggest that it’s inappropriate to complain about photoshopping in advertisements or the skinniness of models on the catwalk? Because those ad-models are also people too.

    We have to be careful to not obscure the issues by complaining about tone–it’s much better to acknowledge them and then work to redirect them to a better frame of reference.

  3. I’ve said it before, but you’re more of a feminist (my idea of a feminist) than the radfem bloggers. I’m sure there’ll be a few activists among them, but the sort we see everyday, the Bonobabes and the likes – it’s just a hobby. They care about their sort of women (just about, so long as they toe the party line, of course), but no others. They’ll never see that they are the problem.

  4. Sorry–this got left out of my comment because, um, the coffee hasn’t hit yet.

    Making those objections to advertisements and skinny models is important–it is one way to counteract the societal impact of such representation. The thing with porn is, it has wider impact than the titillations and orgasms it assists… because cultural expectations of eroticism and female sexuality are impacted by such representations, just like with advertising and cat walks. I agree that feminists need to work to include sex workers under their umbrella, but pointing out the lack of realism in porn is a way to shelter and protect oneself a bit from such standards. Women don’t want to feel like they need to look like the porn actors to be erotic beings.

  5. Hahahaha, I don’t think you’re a buzzkill at all, Ren. I’m pretty sure I put you on the list of people to invite again, and I don’t think I was the only one who put you down, because I like you as a blogger and I like stuff you’ve written before. Here’s my two cents on other stuff:

    • The “E” in Feministe stands for “Everything else that wouldn’t necessarily be considered “Feminist” if you have a narrow definition of the word.”
    • (Not mentioning this as a way of suggesting you should use that word, obviously.)
    • I don’t think you guys were asked as a group, or necessarily even because you’re sex workers
    • I don’t read any sex work blogs
    • … mostly because I don’t really read many blogs at all, unfortunately
    • I’ve never really looked at or put anything on our blogroll that I can remember
    • That said, it seems like there are some gaps that we should be called out on! But I should leave those for people who actually read blogs to fill.
    • I’m definitely interested in sex work and attitudes about sex work, especially as a topic within feminism, and the latter primarily because of the wretched history of some feminists acting against the interests, wishes, and self-determination of sex workers. However, I came to think about this stuff mostly through working with and talking to organizations (and friends at organizations) outside the Internet, for instance the Sex Workers Projects here in NYC. I did an interview with a good friend of mine that used to work there last year, which unfortunately had to be taken down, but I’m hoping to replace it soon with a fresh interview with their director.

    Thanks for being outspoken as usual, Ren — seriously. I agree with you on most of what you said, although it merits pointing out (and not as an excuse) that a lot of what happens around here is the result of rather arbitrary lack of planning or organization, as opposed to anyone putting serious thought into what kind of position to take, for instance. We don’t really have time for that, unfortunately, which in itself is worthy of head-scratching and critique.

  6. Asafoetida — She’s not objecting to people preferring unaltered bodies. She’s objecting to the dehumanization and objectification of sex workers. She’s objecting to behaviour and thought patterns that make it possible for practically everyone to dismiss a sex worker’s reporting of rape/sexual abuse. She’s objecting to the attitudes that render sex workers as less-than and disposable. Do you really think it’s odd that certain classes of sex workers have a higher murder rate than non-sex workers? How many times have you heard people refer to someone as a whore, as though to say there’s nothing more to be said? Those attitudes don’t occur in a vacuum. People aren’t saying, “You know, I just don’t like the look of surgically altered bodies.” They’re saying, “Look at that piece of meat. She’s more plastic than flesh and bone. Who cares what happens to her?” There really isn’t a polite way to say I think you’re job makes you trash, ya know.

  7. Asafoetida,

    The quote that Ren mentions above is, “Do I want to look at some plastic-surgery enhanced woman who doesn’t even look human being porked[?]”

    That’s not “Hmm, the actors in pornographic films only represent a fairly narrow range of body diversity, and I think this creates a problematic view of human sexuality.” That’s “Porn stars are gross and not even human.”

    It is horrible, and it is indefensible. (Says the trans guy who also has a “gross” and “not even human” body, a body that is someday hopefully to be “plastic-surgery enhanced” …) It’s just the feminist version of slut-shaming.

  9. Ren, a big highlight of my summer reading is your guest posting here.

    You raise a good question about the guest posting. As Holly indicated, you have a number of fans. As one of those people with a narrow definition of feminism — that it deal in some way with women’s rights — I think your writing definitely qualifies, whether or not you ID that way. (I’m still not sure how anti-porn feminists’ views have anything to do with whether or not one is a feminist, but if expat works better, so be it).

    Anyway, looking forward very much to your posts.

  10. Asafoetida, it seems to me that you are just substituting *your* standards for how women should look and behave to be properly “liberated”, for someone else’s standards. i’m not sure how that advances the cause of women’s liberation.

    this comment is coming from another expatriate from feminism. i pretty much ran away screaming from feminism when i realized that about 99% (or more) of self-identified feminists are hostile (overtly or covertly) to trans women such as myself. funny (in a not-laughing way) how it is that the same 99% are pretty damned hostile to sex workers, too.

  11. Thanks for this critique, Ren. I’ll second what Holly said, and also throw it out there that I almost never update our blogroll, mostly because I’m lazy and when I’m on Feministe I focus on writing and not maintenance — although now that you’ve pointed it out, I’m going to add some of the blogs you suggested.

    As for why particular guest-bloggers were asked to be here, it’s kind of haphazard. I basically created a Google spreadsheet and emailed it to all the Feministe writers asking them to fill in the names and contact info of bloggers they thought would be good for the summer stint. Some of the suggestions were repeats, and some were new. I think I was the one who suggested Dacia. There were probably 30 or 40 other suggestions. We all reviewed the Google doc, voiced any concerns (there generally aren’t any) and I emailed everyone an invite. That was pretty much it.

    But of course your point is right-on, and it’s not rude to hold people accountable when you’re sharing space with them.

  12. GG, I’m not seeing how Ren is promulgating an alternative standard of dress and behavior in this post. She’s being critical of feminist attitudes towards sex work – not telling us how to behave. Calling the attention of feminists to something that they ignore or mis-represent or somehow offend seems pretty standard in progressive/womanist/trans/feminist blogging, to me.

    But I may be missing something. What standards is she substituting, specifically?

  13. Ren, although you don’t identify as such, I consider you one of the biggest feminists I know.

    Maybe feminists are sometimes not careful with their language about women and men in porn.

    I don’t believe that “maybe” is at all necessary. Feminists are, in fact, sometimes not careful with their language. Actually, worse than that – feminists are sometimes outright jerks with their language, I’m sorry to say.

  14. @Ariane – “This is why I support cultural diversity, but not cultural preservation. ”

    Do you have any idea how racist this sounds?

    Looking forward to more of your posts, Ren.

  15. Not to keep slagging off Asafoetida, but I am frankly puzzled how “unrealistic” can ever be applied to human bodies. They exist, therefore they are real. And I’m not sure why that would necessarily be a bad thing, anyway. Why do “unreal” and “fake” have moral implications?

    I’m glad that you’re being rude here Ren, transforming a space for the better is *good* guesting 🙂

  17. I think “unrealistic,” when used to describe cultural standards of beauty, means (or should mean) “body types which belong to small percentages of the population, which could not be achieved by the ‘average’ woman without extensive work and/or surgery.” I think it’s useful to criticize beauty standards on the basis of not representing the majority of women’s bodies, because that’s a big component of women’s insecurities about our bodies, but that shouldn’t mean that there’s something wrong with the women who DO have that body type. The guiding concepts should be “diversity” and “representation,” not “ew, that’s weird and unnatural.” It think it’s pretty obviously not okay to verbally abuse and dehumanize women who fit the stereotype you’re criticizing, though.

  18. >> Why do “unreal” and “fake” have moral implications?

    It’s connected to honesty, mentally equated with truth versus lie. There is a sense that plastic surgery (or whatever) is *dishonest*. To some extent, I think it also violates a common conception of “fair play.”

  19. Holly- I love what E stands for.

    Willow- If that is the case, then every person who dyes their hair, has had braces, wears make up, control top pantyhose, push up bras, heels, so on so forth is “dishonest” and does not play fair…because yep, sure enough, those people are fucking with how they look naturally…and yes, a small percentage of people get braces for actual medical reasons, but the majority of folk have it done to improve their appearance. Yet, I do not see too many folk refering to women who naturally have brown hair but dye it red or who should have crooked teeth but thanks to a few years and some metal have perfect smiles being called “inhuman” or fake. Now, to be honest and fair and all, myself and a lot of women I know have implants, sure enough…but we’re all real. I’m also currently undergoing treatment and surgery to deal with some really nasty burn scars on my neck…there are medical reasons for this, but a lot of it is cosmetic…now, personally, I would like to dare anyone who thinks I should just wander around as is with these scars because it’s fair play to spend a year doing so themselves, then tell me how they feel about it…

    Or to take it a step further even..I’m a cisgender woman. For the most part- who I am and how I feel on the inside matches up with the outside. I cannot imagine how it would be if that were not the case. So when a transwoman has surgery, is she not playing fair? She should just take one for the team and have the wrong outside? Because other people feel it is not fair play? Um, no. In fact, hell no.

    It never fails to amuse me when I see feminists who seem to encourage people to look beyond the physical body dwelling so much on what other peoples look like and what they may or may not do to them.

  20. I think it’s definitely fair to call out feminism for ‘collateral damage’ to women that is done when we don’t think about the implications of our words.

    Personally, I have serious problems with porn and prostitution and what they say about women in our society. I don’t like the way that women are portrayed in pornography, and it’s disturbing to me that women have to alter their bodies to fit that particular mold. The whole presentation of sex with a woman as a commodity that should be available for purchase by men bothers me, and I think that it bleeds out of porn and sex work and into the way that sex is seen by all men and women. I think that this affects all of us negatively, on the whole. But it’s important to remember that this theoretical negative effect isn’t the same as the effect on sex workers of criminalization and danger of rape and murder due to dehumanizing them, and making things worse for sex workers while you attack the porn industry is not okay.

  21. martini- good comment, see, I am now inclinded to be civil to you! I wish more folk with your belief on the matter did so with this level of thinking.

  22. We have to be careful to not obscure the issues by complaining about tone

    Also, this post…not a tone argument.

    See: http://inalasahl.livejournal.com/149900.html for my absolute favorite post on tone ever.

    On other matters – Ren,

    Great post, my jaw dropped when I saw it at your place the other day. Just another case of “real” women syndrome. Glad to see you’re still kicking feminist ass when and where we need it.

    [Also, probably just a typo, but a number of trans women have explained on prior occasions that the space between trans and women [or men!] is very important in acknowledging that they are women who happen to be trans rather than a separate gender labeled “transwomen”. FWIW.]

  23. Asafoetida:

    There is a huge difference between saying “I do not like how porn presents an idealized body type that is very limitied and the reprocussions that has on women with regards to body image” and saying people don’t even look human. HUGE difference. If the statement “she doesn’t even look human” were uttered about a woman of size or a woman who had a notible disability it would not be tolerated- ever- nor should it be. Well, women in porn are just as human as any other woman and they deserve the same basic respect. The rules should not be different.

  24. Naturally, I’ll be following Ren here. I’ve appreciated her blogs since 2005.

    Given that “Feminist” is at this point merely a product label with no uniformly agreed upon definition, I vastly prefer the term “women’s liberation”. For one thing, that does require the state to quit trying to regulate women so as to “protect” them, or regulate men by barring them from consensual relationships with women – essentially 2nd party interdiction

    >Women don’t want to feel like they need to look like the porn actors to be erotic beings.

    There are lots of things men don’t want to feel like they need to seem. The main advantage men have is that they are not so discouraged from saying “Fuck off world and your stupid ideas.” Women should get the same encouragement and quit being shoehorned into a ridiculous standard of “sensitivity” and “nurturence” to their own disadvantage.

    BTW – Most porn is REAL porn by amateurs exchanging pics, stories and videos of themselves. Porn portrays men and women far more realistically than, say, politics – where people contort themselves into images that polls presume that people prefer.

  25. Good post, Ren. I consider myself a radical feminist, and (like the above commenter) have some issues with pornography and prostitution as they relate to rape culture and the exploitation of vulnerable women. I’m not sure how much good abolition of the sex trade would really do for the women now caught up in it, though — that’s why I read your blog: to figure out what will actually help the most people…

    That said, one of the things that most bothers me about most of the anti-porn, anti-prostitution radical-feminist writing I see online is the dehumanization and misogyny directed toward many of the women involved in pornography and prostitution! You’re all shoehorned into either a victim role or a Bad Woman role, which blows my mind because you’d think feminists — radical feminists for Maude’s sake — would understand that perpetuating that dichotomy does women no favors.

  26. I am not fond of airbrushed, surgically modified, over-made-up model / actress / porn actress women’s bodies being held up as the one variety of desirability. I am also not particularly attracted to perfect bodies on film, because it all looks unreal. On the other hand, I don’t want to insult these women for making the choice to improve their marketability.

  27. Another radical feminist here. I’m confused as to why anyone identified as a feminist would insult, degrade, and make misogynistic comments about sex workers. That’s absurd, and I really don’t get it. I mean…I keep trying to write, but I’m just really stumped about how the degradation of women who are sex workers is logical in any feminist space…? Once you earn money by doing sex work, does that somehow disqualify those women as Good Women? Critique the societal expectation of what women are supposed to look like, not the actual women who look like that ideal.

  28. @ #19/Renegade:

    I think that in general, people tend to differentiate between *improvement* and *restoration*, and between permanent and semi-permanent/temporary. And if we are talking about sex reassignment surgery, I can’t imagine very many things that would be more honest.

    I think there also might be an envy factor at work, in terms of societal expectations (I am not talking about one individual’s perspective; for example, not everyone considers larger breasts more attractive, but it seems to be ingrained in [my, at least] culture). “We” must find a way to denigrate the people we envy, right? “We” need to cast the improvements in a negative light. Thus, un-original features that are not as easily accessible as, say, hair dye, take on a negative cast, which would then associate un-original/”fake” with “bad.” And really, among those with access to dental care, how many people do you think truly envy those with braces?

    I’m not saying that assorted plastic surgeries and related procedures make a woman or man “fake.” In fact, I may also be a little, um, “improved,” if you will…and I’m pretty sure I’m real. The truth/lie dualism was the most popular outcome of a highly unscientific poll I took.

  30. Nancy:

    “On the other hand, I don’t want to insult these women for making the choice to improve their marketability.”

    Blink blink. Do you assume that is what it is always about?

    Willow: “And really, among those with access to dental care, how many people do you think truly envy those with braces?”

    Hell, I do. My teeth are crooked as hell…dental insurance was not something I grew up with, so yep, at my age I am getting braces. A perfect smile is something I’ve envied in others for a long, long time.

  31. I’m pretty new to this whole ‘feminism’ thing. Well sort of. As a child I was introduced to the idea via “Maude” (one of my favorite TV shows of all time), but since my father was the real life version of Archie Bunker (only not quite so loveable an asshole) I kept my feelings to myself. As a teenager I had other things to worry about, and I really did buy in to the whole ‘women have achieved equality’ crap for a while. At least I did until I had to try and raise four kids on my own, with neither ex-husband nor child support in evidence for the last 12 years.

    I’ve only started reading ‘feminist’ literature and blogs very recently, partly because of the whole ‘feminists are man haters, butch and wear flannel’ stereotype I had shoved down my throat as a kid and adolescent, and I still don’t feel comfortable identifying as a feminist. But I have to admit how surprised I was at the way some women seem to be left out of ‘mainstream feminism’. Particularly trans women and sex workers. I know I need more education on the subject(s), and I’m working on that (I am! Really! I promise!) but I cannot understand how mainstream feminism became rights for some women, but not ‘those’ women.

    And I am willing to admit that my assessment may be wrong, I am a n00b after all. Maybe it’s not mainstream feminism excluding these women; maybe I just happened to find a lot of information that doesn’t truly represent the majority. I don’t think that’s the case, but I’ll be happy to be proved wrong.

  32. @Jill,

    Actually, if you’re updating blogroll, could you add some more blogs about Disability? I notice you have FRIDA and Amandaw, but your link to Miss Crip Chick is out-dated. Adding Hoyden about Town would be nice, too. (It might be there, but the way blogrolls are set up hurts my eyes.)

    Accessibility Fail and Disability are two communities on Dreamwidth that are also of interest.

  33. @ Ren:

    Gah, sorry, I wasn’t clear enough. “Have access to” includes, in my mind, the ability to pay for.

    What I’m trying to say is something along these lines, although this probably still isn’t quite it:
    Among a lot of groups, though not all (“have access to” applies throughout this paragraph), braces are a Thing You Do, a rite of passage that nearly everyone goes through. If you don’t get them, chances are your teeth are pretty much perfect anyway. Here, getting braces is ordinary. It doesn’t affect the median, or make someone stand out, or assert that she or he becomes better than others by changing her/his body. The societal norm of straight teeth is still present, but it is obtainable to and likely to be obtained by everyone within the group.

    This is NOT true, however, of cosmetic plastic surgery, and laser hair removal, and so forth. Undergoing one of these procedures sets a person apart and above. I’m not saying that every individual person naturally envies everyone who is better than them in some way. But if the attitude is generally present, the consequences will also be generally present in the cultural atmosphere. “We” attack the people “we” envy because they threaten our sense of self; the thing that makes them different/better is the target of the envy and thus the negative emotions focus on it. Part two of the equation: someone who has cosmetic plastic surgery is modifying her/his natural body, making it, in a sense, un-natural, hence fake. As you pointed out, there is no inherent goodness or badness attached to non-natural; it’s a neutral term. But if you consider that the negative emotions focus on the thing about a body that was changed to make it better, and having changed something makes it go from natural to not-natural, then negative connotations will be attached to non-natural/fake. Not by any one person, but in the general cultural hive mind.

  34. You listed a whole lot of missing links that would be good to see on the blog roll – can you link to them please? They would be good to check out, regardless of whether or not they’re on the main site any time soon!

  35. >Hell, I do. My teeth are crooked as hell…dental insurance was not something I grew up with, so yep, at my age I am getting braces. A perfect smile is something I’ve envied in others for a long, long time.

    Please. PLEASE. PLEASE!!!! don’t spoil your beautiful SNEAR. A smile just isn’t worth it.

    😛

  38. Pingback: Interesting posts, weekend of 8/1 « Feminists with Female Sexual Dysfunction

  39. I am a guy, I watch porn, porn is not reality. I also have seen star wars, and believe it or not have never tried to levitate something, well maybe once. Porn kills time, got an extra half hour in my day, well why not make myself a drink, watch a clip, and ….. If porn actresses want to get plastic surgery have the money I say why not. To be honest, and thanks to the guise of online anonymity, I have had a nose job, a chin implant, I am now in good shape, I am also very human.

    While I don’t have sex for a living, mostly a hobby on those lucky nights. I can’t say, that I view women as a commodity, I take some satisfaction that they also have mutually enjoyed the experience. I also think, I do not know not being in the industry, but I imagine porn and prostitution is a very different life style, for in porn at least the person on the other end is a professional as well, and less likely to do some crazy thing in mid act. We are all human, mostly deeply flawed. So if you f***k for a living, are reasonable moral, well I don’t see why you should be thrown into some metaphorical leper colony with con artists and small time thieves.

    Also, how does it inspire rape. I mean you are a normal fellow one moment, then you watch porn allot and become a rapist. Some one break out there copy of reefer madness whilst we are at it. Rapist are rapist, because they are mostly deranged control freaks. It doesn’t encourage rape, or discourage rape, show me some evidence to the contrary. Not some “I believe it does” B.S.

    As for why I am commenting on this blog, insomnia as well. That and a Google search of “what ever happened to misanthropy”, why I am searching that, because people on the straight and narrow, who live life like Mormons are so very rarely interesting. I can see from this article at least Ren seems interesting, with that I wish all good luck.

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