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Federal advisory panel recommends ban on Vicodin, Percocet

UPDATE, July 7: Via Lauredhel, the FDA has made a decision regarding pain pills Darvon and Darvocet, which are pain killers containing a different ingredient (propoxyphene, a pain killing ingredient related to methadone but less addicting) with similar concerns (accidental overdose). They have decided against a ban, but are imposing stronger warnings on the products.

The reason they give, at the end of the article: “the benefits of using the medication for pain relief at recommended doses outweighs the safety risks at this time.” If nothing else, it is somewhat encouraging. If this is their thinking on Darvon/Darvocet, we can hope that similar thinking will guide their decision on Vicodin/Percocet.

***

And according to the New York Times, the FDA

… is not required to follow the recommendations of its advisory panels, but it usually does.

Emphasis mine. In other words: the ball is rolling.

Vicodin and Percocet are two commonly-prescribed narcotic painkillers. They combine hydrocodone or oxycodone (respectively), the narcotic agent, with acetaminophen, brand name Tylenol.

Acetaminophen is coming under fire because abuse of the drug can lead to liver damage. The safe limit for acetaminophen has generally been regarded as 4,000mg per day. That translates to two extra-strength Tylenol (500mg each), four times a day (eight pills total). The dose of acetaminophen in various combination drugs varies, usually 325mg but ranging up to 750mg.

The panel voted against a ban on over-the-counter cold, flu and sinus relief medications, the vast majority which contain acetaminophen. Apparently these medications aren’t a concern, despite containing just as much acetaminophen and being available over-the-counter, where consumers do not have a doctor and pharmacist counseling them on how to take the medication.

This is not to deny that many practitioners — including, infamously, dentists — throw out prescriptions without a second thought. But the number of such practitioners is much lower than commonly perceived, and restrictions on narcotic painkillers will have a negative effect on chronic pain patients, who have to jump through an increasing number of hoops to obtain effective treatment.

I’m sure many people will jump in the comments to “inform” me that narcotic use for chronic pain is dangerous and inadvisable. This is simply wrong; when there is a medical professional overseeing a patient’s pain management regimen, carefully monitoring the use of such drugs, these pain killers can make an enormous difference in a patient’s quality of life. Dosages will have to be watched, as patients develop a tolerance to narcotics over time, but this does not preclude the use of narcotics whatsoever.

In medical terminology, there is a distinction between addiction and dependence. Generally, addiction occurs when a person takes a drug for which they have no medical need, whereas dependence is a patient taking that same drug for a medical purpose. Another way of putting it is that an addicted person uses a drug to escape from life, whereas a dependent person uses a drug to get on with their life.

With knowledge of the potential for dependence in mind, painkillers are a viable treatment option for chronic pain patients. Many patients do not respond to other available treatments (whether pharmaceutical or otherwise), or they do but those improvements ultimately still leave them in considerable pain. The range of available treatments today may not work for every patient — there may be other conditions and considerations that would make one drug dangerous, or another drug might trigger severe side effects, or another drug may just plain not work for them. Every body is different; every person’s body chemistry will interact differently with a certain drug. Considering this, it is important to leave open the option of using narcotic painkillers for chronic pain patients.

They are, obviously, not a first line treatment! Trust me, we know that. But that doesn’t mean it cannot therefore be an available treatment at all.

One article attempts to assuage the concerns of such patients, in a somewhat patronizing tone. A doctor says that practitioners can simply prescribe acetaminophen-free narcotics and advise the patient to take a Tylenol with it. If a practitioner is going to advise that much to a patient, why can’t sie just advise, “Don’t take more than X per day, and check with us before taking any over-the-counter medication,” in the first place? If it’s as simple as telling a doctor to advise a patient on how best to take the medication — why can’t they just do that, instead of taking away an important treatment option for patients?

It is telling, I think, that they voted to ban the pain killers but not the Nyquil. They see narcotic users as other people — the poor people, the drug addicts and traffickers. But the family next door uses Nyquil. The family next door is trusted to be responsible. The Other People are not.

I have been using Vicodin as a part of my pain management routine for almost seven years. As I wrote in a letter to my doctor earlier this year:

The adjustments we made to my other medications were the driving force behind my ability to take on an increasing amount of work – from six hours a week as a restaurant greeter when I met [my doctor], to 20-30 hours a week retail sales, and now to a full-time nine-to-five clerical job. Up until two months ago, for all the change that I went through physically, my hydrocodone usage only went up a small amount – from 1.5/day average to 2/day average.

And I do not rely solely on medication to treat my pain and fatigue. I practice good sleep hygiene: I make sure to go to bed around the same time every night and wake up around the same time every morning, allowing myself 8-9 hours of uninterrupted sleep. (I know that is actually more than recommended for healthy adults, but because research shows fibromyalgia symptoms seem to stem from an interrupted sleep cycle, making the sleep less restful, I need a little more to make up for it.) I make my sleeping environment comfortable in terms of light, sound, and temperature. I maintain a very careful balance of physical activity and rest. I do my best to get light but regular low-impact exercise – I’ve done everything from light walking to weight lifting to Pilates. I am careful to identify things that trigger pain, such as clothing that is too restrictive around the shoulders and hips or certain chemical odors, and then eliminate them from my life to whatever extent possible. I have been through cognitive-behavioral therapy; I have been to stress-management workshops; I know breathing exercises and other coping strategies. I have an entire collection of heating pads at home – portable ones, electric, moist microwavable pads – which I use quite frequently. Dr. H recently helped me procure a TENS unit to treat my recurrent back pain, which has been the single biggest factor in my ability to work this new full-time job. It reduces my pain significantly and thus reduces my use of the pain killers.

I have also tried a variety of other techniques and treatments that just ended up not working for me. Those listed above are those that turned out to work, and each is an important and indispensable part of managing my chronic pain.

Vicodin is only one part of my pain management routine. But one that would significantly affect me if it were taken away. I would have to quit my job. I would do a lot less work around the house — and my husband already does more than half, even when I’m not working. I would be confined to my house, as the amount of trips outside (grocery shopping, doctor appointments, etc.) would be significantly harder on me. As I explained a bit further down in that letter:

I explained to him that, for everything my other medications do for my pain, there are many times where if I want to be able to get up and do something, I need the pain killers. It not only kills the pain, so to speak, but it gives me energy – to try to describe it more accurately, it lifts a weight from my body, so that I can move more freely. Without it, unless I have been doing absolutely nothing but resting for days previous, just moving, lifting my legs and reaching my arms and pushing my body through the air, is cause for a sort of generalized, all-over ache. I feel it in the skin and muscles of whichever part I am trying to move. With the pain killers, that feeling is gone. I can stand up and walk; I can reach to take something off a shelf; I can write; I can lift and carry, and the only pain I will feel is if I actually do strain anything unnaturally.

So whether I’m wanting to fill the cats’ dish with kibble, or gather my dirty clothes to take down to the laundry room, or go out to the grocery store for some milk and bread, I need those pain killers. Whether I’m wanting to sit in the shower for fifteen minutes, or dry my hair, or prepare myself a meal, I need those pain killers. For these activities, I don’t need them every time. But I also cannot go without them every time. I need them some of the time, to keep that careful balance so that I am not so overwhelmed with pain that I find myself unable to do those things at all.

You can see how this would extend to work activities. If I want to get myself ready in the morning so that I am presentable and professional; if I want to alphabetize the files and begin to put them away; if I want to walk around to the various places I need to go inside my workplace throughout the day, fetching applications and delivering mail – to do these things, I need the pain killers. And because this work is regular and sustained, I will need them more regularly than I do for the home care tasks mentioned above.

This letter was written after a nasty incident with another doctor in my clinic. She gave me all of twenty seconds to explain why I was there before launching into a very loud diatribe about how I was crazy and ruining my life, and she was going to send me to rehab. (If you want that story, it’s highlighted in blue here. The yellow blocks are the purely-necessary background, since the letter is so long.)

That left me with no option but to go to the emergency room to ask for a Vicodin script. The experience was humiliating. Nurses outside my exam room joked to each other “We should put a sign on the door that says ‘We are all out of Vicodin, go somewhere else.'” The doctor who saw me gave me a long and patronizing lecture, telling me that I should be seeing a pain specialist and not having my primary doctor coordinate my care, guilting me for using the stuff at all, with many dramatic sighs and furrowing of the brow.

Before he gave me my prescription, I asked if he had a recommendation for a pain specialist, and he gave me one. I called them up. They requested that I send over my medical records before they would make an appointment, because the doctor sat down to read them for every new patient so that he could establish a customized treatment plan. I did as they requested and two days later, I got a call. His receptionist told me that they were not going to schedule me an appointment, because the doctor said “There’s nothing else we can really do for you” and said to continue doing what I was already doing with my primary doctor.

In other words, I was doing it right.

This is the kind of regular obstactles that are set in the path of chronic pain patients who use these medications. And it seems like every time we turn around, there’s another restriction.

It is good that they are turning their attention to the dangers inherent in acetaminophen. But there are ways to address this without making life that much harder for another set of people. Am I going to have to take a higher dose of narcotics now because they want to “protect” me from the danger? I don’t particularly want to.

Hat tip to Annaham.

(Cross-posted at Three Rivers Fog)

I will be stricter on this thread. No lecturing, no patronizing. Treat us with respect. If you think you can step in and drop names or pull rank to justify a condescending lecture to people with chronic pain conditions, to tell them how it “really” is, what their life is “really” like or how naive and stupid they are, I’m going to put my boot on your ass. Fair warning.

The adjustments we made to my other medications were the driving force behind my ability to take on an increasing amount of work – from six hours a week as a restaurant greeter when I met him, to 20-30 hours a week retail sales, and now to a full-time nine-to-five clerical job. Up until two months ago, for all the change that I went through physically, my hydrocodone usage only went up a small amount – from 1.5/day average to 2/day average.

And I do not rely solely on medication to treat my pain and fatigue. I practice good sleep hygiene: I make sure to go to bed around the same time every night and wake up around the same time every morning, allowing myself 8-9 hours of uninterrupted sleep. (I know that is actually more than recommended for healthy adults, but because research shows fibromyalgia symptoms seem to stem from an interrupted sleep cycle, making the sleep less restful, I need a little more to make up for it.) I make my sleeping environment comfortable in terms of light, sound, and temperature. I maintain a very careful balance of physical activity and rest. I do my best to get light but regular low-impact exercise – I’ve done everything from light walking to weight lifting to Pilates. I am careful to identify things that trigger pain, such as clothing that is too restrictive around the shoulders and hips or certain chemical odors, and then eliminate them from my life to whatever extent possible. I have been through cognitive-behavioral therapy; I have been to stress-management workshops; I know breathing exercises and other coping strategies. I have an entire collection of heating pads at home – portable ones, electric, moist microwavable pads – which I use quite frequently. Dr. H recently helped me procure a TENS unit to treat my recurrent back pain, which has been the single biggest factor in my ability to work this new full-time job. It reduces my pain significantly and thus reduces my use of the pain killers.

I have also tried a variety of other techniques and treatments that just ended up not working for me. Those listed above are those that turned out to work, and each is an important and indispensable part of managing my chronic pain.


133 thoughts on Federal advisory panel recommends ban on Vicodin, Percocet

  1. God it kills me every time I read a description of people being treated like shit by medical staff like this, it’s simply disgusting. You don’t owe anyone an explanation for what works for you, and banning products left right and centre has never helped anything.

  2. But unlike NyQuil, which gets used for a few days at most, Vicodin and Percoset can and are taken for chronic pain. Doesn’t that add to the possibility of liver damage from continued use/possible overdose?

    (I am 100% agreed that the policies around narcotics in this country are screwed up. I’m just not sure I agree with you in this particular instance.)

  3. I’ve never suffered from a chronic pain condition, but I did have a complicated abdominal surgery several years ago… I simply couldn’t have lived without Vicodin for that first few weeks. This will be a huge loss to a lot of people, if it goes through. Let’s hope someone, somewhere along the line has some sense.

  4. Acetaminophen is SAFE TO USE as long as you do not exceed the recommended dose. Otherwise, Tylenol wouldn’t be on the market.

    Honestly, it’s like people’s minds just turn off when it comes to this stuff.

    I told you I was going to be stricter in this thread. Read the damn post, and do some research on your own.

  5. Persia,

    Have you ever considered that a chance of liver damage might be an acceptable risk to someone with a chronic pain condition?

  6. rant:

    This. Is. Unacceptable. I. Hate. These. People.

    People who take these medications KNOW that they can cause liver damage. They are by and large not taking them for sh*ts and giggles. AND EVEN IF THEY WERE WHO ARE THEY HURTING BY DOING SO??? WHO???

    This is part of the bullsh*t “War on Drugs” and the attempt to terrify pain management doctors into refusing to perscribe legitimate medication–BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID THEY WILL GO TO JAIL. So other people can sit on their asses and feel….righteous.

    Do you know how many neurologists my mother had to go to get her pain meds? FIVE. Five humiliating, exhausting, trips of begging for her MEDICATION. Of being treated like a junkie. Of even after those FIVE doctors, having to go to an illegal clinic to get her SLEEP medication for when nothing else works.

    This is not acceptable. And it is a feminist issue. Anyone ever notice how these MEDICAL conditions requiring “controlled” medications are overwhelmingly women’s diseases? (migraines, fibro, PCOS, etc). A little bird tells me that we still haven’t gotten over ideas of “hysteria” and “imagined” psychosomatic pain due to our vaginas.

    / rant.

    /rant.

  7. Have you ever considered that a chance of liver damage might be an acceptable risk to someone with a chronic pain condition?

    Or that the riskier part of the hydrocodone/acetaminophen mix is the fucking acetaminophen and could be taken out? I know it doesn’t do a damn thing for my pain, and I do worry about long-term affects on my liver.

  8. clarification in the interests of my not being totally anon–

    It isn’t an illegal clinic. It’s just not in the US.

  9. kaninchenzero–

    As I understand it, the acetominophen is crucial for managing certain issues like arthritis. I think a purer pain med is something like Oxy or flat out hydrocodone.

  10. People, look.

    Acetaminophen can be dangerous long term. If you take the maximum dose every single day for more than six years. And even then, the risk is very small.

    The vast, vast majority of patients taking combination painkillers are not taking anything near that level, sustained for that long. The amount of people who do take that much that consistently for that long? Very, very small.

    Don’t sit here and tell me BUT IT MIGHT HARM YOU!!! BOOGA BOOGA!

    I’m not fucking stupid and I will call you on your bullshit. I don’t care how well-intentioned you are. It’s people with “good intentions” who are causing us this problem.

  11. As I understand it, the acetominophen is crucial for managing certain issues like arthritis.

    Sorry. You’re right; I was looking at it from the perspective of my disease which doesn’t have an inflammation component and that was selfish of me.

    I am very afraid that I am going to lose one of the things that helps me function — I regularly take very large doses of narcotic painkillers to be able to work a forty-hour week with a sometimes-tolerable level of pain and the prospect of that disappearing is terrifying.

  12. This makes me extremely nervous, as I take morphine to manage chronic pain. It’s not mentioned here but it’s still strictly controlled and my life would not be worth living if I was unable to manage my pain. Organ damage is a possible outcome down the line. But excrutiating pain is a certainty right now. My stomach is already sort of torn apart, due to all my meds. But until a better alternative to oral meds comes along, it’s a risk I (and others) have to take. Ugh, so sorry to hear this.

  13. Oh god, so many things are wrong with this picture. The belief that drugs cause bad things to happen, and are therefore a root cause rather than a consequence. I am seriously tempted to lay some blame on House MD for current perceptions of Vicodin as a scarybad drug, but I think it was already out there and House just gave it more hype. The general contempt of the medical establishment (not every single person in it, but the overall mentality) for anyone who doesn’t have a medical degree… as if patients can’t be trusted with their own health and doctors are never the ones screwing up or making healthcare harder.

    I have not experienced chronic pain as has been described by people in this thread, but I have had re-occuring debilitating pain (only about four to six times a year, now) that only prescription medication could do anything about. I don’t even want to imagine having to put up with it more frequently, and I really don’t want to imagine having to do it without medication, but that’s exactly what people are being asked to do or forced into by measures like this. All because it’s assumed that the vast majority of patients are either untrustworthy or incompetent. Unlike the doctors, *of course.*

  14. There wouldn’t really be a problem here, if it weren’t for the fact that Vicodin, which is hydrocodone plus acetaminophen, is a Schedule III drug, while unadulterated hydrocodone without acetaminophen is a Schedule II drug. If that weren’t the case, amandaw’s doctor could simply switch her prescription over to pure hydrocodone. In fact, this would probably be to her advantage, as the liver toxicity of acetaminophen is high, and the pain-killing effect of that component of Vicodin is minor compared with the hydrocodone. If a patient really wanted to get the additional pain-killing effect of acetaminophen when added to hydrocodone, she could simply take OTC Tylenol (keeping in mind that one should be very careful not to take too much.)

    But since the two versions of hydrocodone are in different regulatory classes, it is not trivially easy to make that switch; for example, a doctor cannot authorize a refill, nor prescribe more than 30 days’ worth of the drug. The obvious solution to this problem is for the FDA to reclassify hydrocodone as a Schedule III drug at the same time they ban selling it in pills where it is mixed with acetaminophen.

    If we want to help amandaw and many thousands of other chronic pain sufferers like her, then the thing to do is to campaign for the reclassification of hydrocodone as a more easily-prescribed Schedule III drug. I’m not sure whether that would require legislative action or can simply be done ny a regulatory decision. This is a link to the contact page for the FDA.

  15. So with you on the anti-narcotics hysteria. And on how fearfully and angrily doctors other than my neurologist, who prescribed my medication regimen, react to it.

    My Googling made me think that Vicoprofen (Vicodin with ibuprofen instead of acetaminophen) might be a reasonable substitute; I’m planning on asking my doctor the next time I see him. You might ask yours the same question.

  16. I’m nervous about this too. The primary argument for it that I’ve seen is that you can take hydrocodone with ibuprofen or alone – that might work for my condition, but as others have pointed out the acetominophen is a crucial component for many people.

    I hadn’t realized the distinction they drew between Vicodin and things like Nyquil. That’s just bizarre. Plenty of people take Nyquil to get high, and it’s much easier to get dangerous doses of acetominophen that way than through a doctor-controlled prescription of Vicodin.

    I’m also in an endless circle of hell with regards to doctors. My primary care physician is so nervous about the Vicodin that she’s not willing to manage my meds. She’s referred me to half a dozen pain clinics so far, none of which have been willing to take my case! And it sounds like this is par for the course, not just for my very rare condition (syringomyelia) but more common ones like fibro. I’m about to start knocking on energy healers’ doors just to find someone who will treat me with some respect!

  17. What are we supposed to take instead if we have GI issues that make NSAIDS an impossible solution? I’ve been taking vicodin for menstrual cramps for about 7 years now and also take on occasion for various other things like neck or back issues (when pain is too much to sleep).

    I can’t imagine what I would do every month for those two days of cramps that make me dizzy from the pain. While heating pads do help, it’s not an option to stay home for two days attached to a heating pad (that after a few hours inadvertently causes the runs).

    I’ve already been thru the hell of trying to get my PCP to prescribe vicodin for me so that I can keep track of it. Instead, I have to remember to ask my dentist for a script when I know I’ll only need a few pills. I have to ask my foot doctor for another script for a few pills. The gynecologist gives me just enough for cramps for a couple months at a time.

    So, because my PCP won’t prescribe any pills at all… I’m constantly filling scripts for a handful of pills and can’t keep track as easily as to how many I’m actually going through. I’ve also had to resort, more than once, to having family or friends pass along any pills they haven’t used from procedures.

    Even while the meds are available, they are already a source of constant worry as to where and how I’ll get them if I run out. I fear what we’ll all resort to if this option is taken away from us.

    I know that these meds are addicting. They are however, the only option for some of us and because we know that they are addicting, we are careful about not abusing them so as not to lose the privilege of taking the one thing that gets us through.

    Life is sometimes bad enough even with these meds, The thought of vicodin being taken away is already making me wonder why I even got out of bed today.

  18. A few things I don’t understand:

    1. The awful state of pain management available for people living with chronic or terminal conditions. Two people in my immediate family were lucky to finally find a compassionate doctor who was really willing to listen and work with them as patients. It sucks that people without access to affordable health care (which, because pain often gets in the way finding a job w/ insurance, probably includes lots of people with pain issues) will never be treated competently. I’m sure that living with pain also zaps energy, which would make the endless search for a good Dr. that much more daunting.

    2. Does anyone make hydrocodone by itself not in extended release form? Would this even be useful, or is it the combo of hydrocodone &acetominophen that makes Vicodin work?

    3. There are so many FDA approved medicines that can have potentially serious or even fatal side effects. When they’re prescribed it’s the Dr’s responsibility to discuss the pros and cons of using that medication with the patient, so they can both make an informed decision! If the people in charge started treating chronic pain as the life-threatening issue it is (chronic pain patients are at an increased risk for suicide) this ban wouldn’t even be on the table.

  19. As a former pharmacy tech, I learned a lot about prescription and non-prescription medications.

    What I want to know is why this advisory panel is attacking acetaminophen in the first place for liver damage, when ibuprofen (Advil) and naproxen (Aleve) and any other NSAID ALL CAUSE LIVER DAMAGE in high doses and with prolonged use. The point of using these medications – especially in high doses and/or combined with C II meds like hydro- and oxycodone – is that the person using them (properly and legally) is in enough pain to make the short-term benefits outweigh the long-term risks. Taking the acetaminophen out of painkillers and just telling patients to take over-the-counter acetaminophen with it is the same thing, with a little more hassle for the pharmacy, and a greater possibility of a patient taking the meds incorrectly, than if they only have one prescription to take. Many prescriptions out there have very serious long-term effects – SSRIs (depression medications), anxiety medications, heart medications, asthma meds, arthritis meds… The list covers pretty much every type. Are we going to now take away those medications? We’re real sorry you’re depressed to the point of suicide, but we just don’t want to hurt your liver 20 years down the road.

    Yes, the long-term effects are serious. But people who consult with their physicians and compare their current condition to possible (often lesser) conditions down the road make the decision to take these meds. There is a lot wrong with the pharmaceutical industry, but I don’t think taking acetaminophen out of painkillers (thereby making them less effective), or taking painkillers away altogether and depriving pain management doctors of what often becomes the only option for their patients is going to help.

  20. De-lurking to send a big shout out of thank you! to both Amandaw for bringing this horrible development to light, and to W. Kiernan for adding futher details to this regulatory mess. I’m a chronic pain patient (SLE with CNS involvement = without Norco/Vicodin I can’t move my right arm or neck and end up vomiting on the floor of my bathroom due to the pain) and I’m quite simply, I’m scared. Norco makes it possible for me to function on a daily basis. I’m at the higher end of dosage (6 to 8 7.5/325mg a day), and being switched to other compounds is not an option, as I am already on 800mg of Ibuprofen every 8 hours for inflammation, which also rules out the compound with asprin. I haven’t spoken to my primary care doctor yet about this, but I imagine he is spitting nails. What are doctors going to prescribe for moderate pain in individuals who cannot have ibuprofen or asprin? Will we be back to morphine for everyone?

  21. I’m gonna step in and pull rank, what with my Dad having been a pain management doctor. With the immense authority that gives me, I’ll tell you, Amandaw, that my dad is on your side on this thing. Not because prescribing drugs earned him vast amounts of money (we’re Canadian, so that’s not so much a factor), but because he saw people every day who were in pain and needed narcotics to manage it.

    He also saw some drug addicts, and some he suspected were reselling the drugs in order to buy other drugs, and he had a variety of ways of helping them: letting them only pick up a day’s worth of pills at the pharmacy, getting them into treatment, getting them off illegal drugs and onto legal ones, so that they could deal with their pain without resorting to crime to support themselves. He had great success getting people off illegal drugs by prescribing THC pills.

    He’s a very caring physician, and would never do anything to hurt a patient.

  22. Anyone ever notice how these MEDICAL conditions requiring “controlled” medications are overwhelmingly women’s diseases? (migraines, fibro, PCOS, etc). A little bird tells me that we still haven’t gotten over ideas of “hysteria” and “imagined” psychosomatic pain due to our vaginas.

    This too.

    I have adenomyosis and even with a plethora of pain management techniques, I still have debilitating pain for about 2-5 days per month. I’ve sought — and been denied — scrips for drugs like tramadol and prescription-strength NSAIDs. At this point, I can’t think any concerns about potential dependency or other health risks (e.g., cardiovascular for the NSAIDs) are founded in anything approaching reality. I think it’s much more likely that my concerns about pain are being dismissed because a certain amount of “women’s pains” are “to be expected” by a large portion of the medical community.

    What amandaw mentioned — and what I think is worth repeating since a lot of people (not necessarily reading this post) don’t Get It — is that people with chronic pain already do so much jumping through hoops and trying everything else first. It makes me mad enough when those hoops are my own health care providers (or former health care providers). When it’s someone who doesn’t even know me dictating what medication can and can’t be used in order to help me LIVE MY LIFE, that makes me livid.

  23. I was under the impression that hydrocodone will still be available, just not in the same pill as acetamenophen. because that would mean that by taking a tylenol and a hydrocodone, one essentially gets a vicodin.
    It’s a tough one- I think most people take vicodin and others out of need, but addiction is an insidious thing, and if the pills are separate, this does seem to protect people who fall into addiction from destroying their livers.
    At the same time, by making people taking multiple pills, it is making life more complicated. It’s a trade off.

  24. Personally, I prefer Vicoprofen to Vicodin — the only difference is that it’s combined with ibuprofen instead of frakking tylenol. And the only reason I prefer it is because it works better for me. But. It’s still a HUGE deal for me to get it. My GP is good about giving it to me, it’s the damned pharmacy people! Last time I got my script filled, they were all eyeing me and calling the doctor to check the amount. See, because she knows how screwed up my insurance is, she’d given me the maximum number allowed — but since I appear to be a healthy 30-year-old, the pharmacy people thought I’d added a frakking ‘0’ to the script! They were like “Are you sure this shouldn’t be for six pills, not 60?” and they clearly did not believe me when I said it was correct. They circled the damned number on the frakking bottle and made a point of letting me see them calling my doc to confirm.

    Guess which pharmacy I no longer use?

    It’s all ridiculous. Yes, I look like I’m perfectly healthy. I’m not. I’m in more pain on a daily basis than most people can imagine. And yes, I know the possible side effects of all my medication. I go out of my way to make certain I do not take things in combinations that will endanger me. Hell, I know plenty of ‘healthy’ people who take NyQuil plus a couple Tylenol. And yeah, I know someone who OD’d and died because he took too much Tylenol. Of course, he was taking it for chronic migraine because he’d been told that there wasn’t anything the doctors could do about his headaches. Which was a lie — his doctors didn’t even try putting him on preventatives. So, instead of getting the meds he needed which would NOT have destroyed his liver, he self-medicated with handfuls of Tylenol until he died. As a bonus, his teenage daughter was the one who found him. That’s what this crazy fear of ‘overmedicating’ leads to.

    Ya know, if they really believed Tylenol was a problem, they’d take it off the frakking shelves. They’d put it behind the counter where you couldn’t get it without a counseling session with the pharmacist. They wouldn’t leave it out where anyone could buy it, no questions asked. But THAT would be an inconvience! Why, what would they do if they had a cold??? Gods forbid they have to, oh I don’t know, beg someone for medication. Gods forbid someone treat them like an addict. (You know, that’s the second bottle of Extra Strength Tylenol you’ve bought this week. I think we need to consider rehab.) That would be inhumane, after all.

  25. I am letting sarah m’s comment through as an example of exactly the attitude that causes these problems.

    I can’t help but think it’s similar to pro-torture pundits relying on the ticking time bomb scenario: the one thing that rarely-to-never occurs being used to justify imposing something bad on everyone else to prevent it.

    It’s never really about that rare situation. It’s about controlling the everybody-else.

  26. People who take these medications KNOW that they can cause liver damage. They are by and large not taking them for sh*ts and giggles. AND EVEN IF THEY WERE WHO ARE THEY HURTING BY DOING SO??? WHO???

    The problem is – this isn’t really true. According to the New York Times, “even recommended doses can cause liver damage in some people. And more than 400 people die and 42,000 are hospitalized every year in the United States from overdoses.” I’ve been prescribed Vicodin before, and I had no idea that a recommended dose could hurt me.

    I agree with you that patients’ rights suffer when the government regulates with a heavy hand. But the medical profession has proven unable to properly manage drug interactions — over 20,000 deaths were caused by drug interactions in 2004. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/23/AR2007022301780.html

    I also agree that educated medical consumers like you (people with access to the internet and other sources of research and the ability to effectively advocate for themselves with doctors) can and should be able to make these decisions for themselves, in an ideal world. But the government is supposed to protect everyone, not just those people smart enough/resourceful enough to figure out their prescriptions for themselves.

    In making these comments, I am in no way saying that I don’t think people have a right to narcotic pain relief. That seems to be the crux of the problem here — it’s harder to get plain narcotics prescribed than it should be.

  27. See folks, we have to “protect” those stupid, clueless, completely-removed-of-agency people who might abuse things. We’re the smart people, but some folks out there aren’t like us! They just don’t know how to manage their own lives, so we have to do it for them, yanno? Sigh, the abled man’s burden.

  28. See folks, we have to “protect” those stupid, clueless, completely-removed-of-agency people who might abuse things.

    The problem isn’t abuse – it’s that some people aren’t actually properly informed by their doctors, and don’t find the information themselves. So I’m actually saying the opposite of what you’re accusing me of – I am smart, you are smart, everyone posting here is smart, we all have internet access and are likely to take full advantage of it and advocate as best we can for ourselves and our families with our doctors. It’s the people who *don’t* have the privilege of all this access to information who I’m worried about.

  29. And this case can be handled in such a way as to make sure people are more informed, rather than taking away options from people who need them.

  30. But the government is supposed to protect everyone, not just those people smart enough/resourceful enough to figure out their prescriptions for themselves.

    I’m not sure that making it more difficult for people to obtain appropriate pain management “protects” anyone.

  31. Fantastic, now there are “concerned” folks stumbling all over this thread to tell us how concerned they are about those who need to be protected from themselves, or something.

    Yeah, some of us with pain issues who need things like Percoset and Vicodin don’t like being abstractly theorized about, actually, or having our needs kicked aside in favor of hypothesizing about people who *might* not be as “informed” in the “right way.”

  32. I think I’m going to throw up. I have already wept tears of frustration over having to beg, beg my doctor for 20 Vicodin every six months, over not understanding why he can’t prescribe me ten a month (is anyone going to get addicted on that), over have my own spouse tell me that I “just have to understand” why I can’t treat my pain and give me concerned looks when I take a painkiller. I may cry.

  33. Dear Everyone:
    “Those people” are in this thread. We read Feministe. Dear lord, stop talking about “them” like “they” aren’t here!

    We’ve had nights here where we’ve talked about going to the hospital so Don can get a shot of something stronger for his chronic pain when he can’t sleep, but he dreads the idea of going to the hospital and being treated like a junkie. So he’ll go through the whole night crying in pain rather than deal with the shit that people with chronic illnesses have to go through in order to be treated like their pain is *real*. And we’re Nice White Folks. With the racism of the OMG!war on drugs, I can’t imagine trying to get appropriate pain medication if he were First Nations or African-Nova Scotian.

  34. malathion–

    Other things aside, what do drug *interactions* have to do with anything? And why are they the fault of the *patient*? Responsibility for avoiding drug interaction lies with the perscribing doctor and the pharmacist–and has nothing to do with this ban on Vicodin.

    All helpful drugs have the potential to be harmful–and the solution isn’t banning them, it’s improving the education of doctors and, yes, the ability of patients to advocate for themselves.

    And yes, I am sure that even the “recommended doses can cause liver damage in some people.” Operative words here being “can” and “some.”

  35. I’ve created enough medical records in my lifetime — thousands upon thousands — for me to know this: A LOT of people (including many people 65 and older) regularly take Vicodin, Percocet, and Oxycontin. And I can also tell you this: They’re not taking it to get high. (Why would they? There are far more effective ways to get buzzed, many of which can be obtained without seeing a doctor and having it go on your records.) Doctors who know what they’re doing know the difference between true “drug seeking behavior” (the few people who are combining the stuff with alcohol and other recreational drugs for kicks) and people with legitimate pain issues that don’t respond to anything else. (A lot of doctors and other medical professionals don’t know the difference, though, and could definitely use more education on the subject.)

    Now, given that MANY chronic pain patients are 65+ years old, I would expect that senior citizens’ rights organizations would be all over this issue. But like you said, Amanda, OTC acetaminophen is extremely easy to obtain and overdose on (not just acutely, but through chronic buildup). Any 12-year-old can do it. So that’s obviously not their concern here. This is another one of those Them People (Especially Them Women People) Are Having Too Much Fun At My Expense kinds of regulations (yeah, I’m sure intractable chronic pain is a total barrel of laughs and they’d just love to trade places with y’all). Making people go to multiple medical facilities to get pain relief increases the chance of a fatal drug interaction or overdose; if doctor B doesn’t know what doctor A has already prescribed, and the patient is afraid to tell doctor B because they fear the ration of shit they’d get if they did, just imagine the clusterfuck by the time doctors C, D, and E get involved.

  36. All helpful drugs have the potential to be harmful–and the solution isn’t banning them, it’s improving the education of doctors and, yes, the ability of patients to advocate for themselves.”

    I think this sums it up best. I work in substance abuse and addiction and see more and more people coming through the doors addicted (or dependent) on pain medications that they were not properly informed could be harmful in whatever way they have become harmful. (perhaps they have triggered a past addiction and now they have begun abusing the medications they once took as prescribed. maybe they have become dependent on the medication and now are taking three or four times the required dosage because the prescribed dosage no longer helps their pain.) In any event, for the most part these individuals have been very uninformed of the risks associated with these medications, and despite the multitude of excellent, caring physicians out there, there are also plenty who are just wanting to throw a pill at a problem and not address what may be underlying (psychological causes of pain) or really educate their patient about what might result from their prescription. If we could improve the way that doctors communicate information to their patients, and also utilize as many potential solutions that may be out there to relieve chronic pain (be they pharmacological, psychological, or other), we could have an effective, hollistic approach to pain management that wouldn’t have as much risk of triggering addiction or dependence. Maybe this would help the FDA not freak out over Vicodin.

    I do not suffer from chronic pain, but after coming into contact with so many people in my profession who do, I see it as one of the scariest ailments one may face, for so often many if not all remedies do nothing to address the pain. Sometimes I can’t even blame people who have become hooked on their Rx pain meds. Often it’s either that or live in pain. I certainly wouldn’t want the latter.

  37. I know this:

    Someone, somewheres is going to make plenty of money from this.

    I suspect it will be prescribers (you know, you gotta pay $150 to see a doctor just to get the damn prescription that you and the doctor would know is needed in 2 minutes).

    But you know? It really wouldn’t surprise me if it *was* subtextual ‘isms that abused drugs are continually associated with.

    If the body ain’t right, then it’s probably ain’t white (or male) –or poor. Oxycontin and Vicodin both have highly visible and negative associations. Oxycontin–hillbilly heroin…Vicodin, something that you see trophy wives overdose on…

  38. I can’t actually read this whole thread because the stupid burns my eyes. But here’s the other thing: The cost (to me) of vicodin? $10 a scrip. The cost of hydrocodone and a bottle of tylenol? $10 plus whatever the hell it costs to get a bottle of tylenol in whatever size the pharmacy I’m at has in stock. It is NOT THE SAME THING.

    Plus, there are reasons people won’t take the version with ibuprofen. Some people can’t take NSAIDs for a number of reasons. One not mentioned up thread (I think) is that in some asthmatics, aspirin or ibuprofen can cause severe asthma attacks.

    The solution is better health care, not fewer medications.

  39. Two points:

    1) When Ibuprofen in the recommended doses isn’t enough to allow me to function through the severe cramps I get when I have my period, I take a little bit more than the label suggests. This is a minor risk but a risk nonetheless. Am I wrong in thinking that people with more severe pain who are denied the medicine that actually works for them are likelier to take larger doses of the less effective drugs and/or take them more often, which would mean that banning these drugs would counterproductive? (I’m making this a question because I recognize that I’m only guessing from my similar but not identical experience, and I am not the expert here.)

    2) If a patient is required to take both an acetaminophen-free narcotic and Tylenol, this increases the chances of a mistake being made in terms of dosage, which again makes banning the combination drugs more dangerous than allowing them.

  40. Damn damn damn… what is wrong with this country? I agree with amandaw and a lot of the posters here on the unacceptability of treating “other” people (especially women) like wee children who need to be protected and controlled.

    I wonder what role math and science illiteracy plays in this debate:

    1) Despite what government hacks say, science can’t tell us what risks are unacceptable (I tend to think that doctors and more to the point, patients should be trusted with that responsibility).

    2) Presumably there is a statistically significant increase in liver damage from folks who use large doses of NSAIDS over extended periods of time. However, statistical significance says next to nothing about the magnitude of the effect. Whenever I hear people summarize medical summaries, it’s always along the lines of “ZOMG! an x% increase in risk!” The concern shouldn’t be that there’s increased risk– particularly if the risk is still small (let alone justified in the eyes of the patient and/or doctor).

    IMO, what the FDA should be looking out for are massive risks and unexplained risks. This case presents neither. This is lunacy. I get pissed when folks try to use science to support their prejudices and hurt fellow humans. For shame!

  41. Sarah M, I agree that addiction is a problem. But treating people who need chronic pain medication like addicts and denying them medication that actually works for them creates a different, bigger problem. Liver damage is also a problem, but that’s something for a person to discuss with their individual doctor, like the side effects of all other medicines, instead of being banned. This isn’t a “tough one” or a “trade off”. This is a bad move that will hurt a lot of people and I don’t really see it helping anyone.

  42. Vicodin and Percocet are just combination hydrocodone/acetaminophen (Tylenol) and oxycodone/acetaminophen, respectively. Any ban on Vicodin and Percocet will mean you simply can’t get these particular combinations anymore. While standalone hydrocodone is difficult to come by on its own, standalone oxycodone is readily available; and, if combination hydrocodone/acetaminophen is no longer available (Vicodin, Lortab, Norco, etc), then it is likely that hydrocodone might become commercially available, or there will be a switch in preference to oxycodone, since the DEA regards standalone hydrocodone to be a class-2 controlled substance, just like oxycodone. (Combination hydrocodone/acetaminophen is a class-3, since the inclusion of Tylenol (supposedly) acts as a deterrent to intentional misuse (not really, in my experience).)

    People will still be able to get their pain medication. They will just have to buy Tylenol seperately.

  43. Mark the Pharmacy Technician, you fail to realize how much shit PWD already go through every single day to be able to access treatment, stuff that takes up energy which is already in short supply for us. So no, it’s NOT “just that easy.”

    I stated right there in the post I would not stand for people to pull rank so that they can lecture PWD about How Things Really Are. I realize it may be difficult for you to realize that you are not God’s Gift To Us, your insights aren’t helpful, and your attitude stinks, but them’s the breaks.

  44. People will still be able to get their pain medication.

    Um.

    1) I can’t get pain medication now. Recommending the removal of pain management options makes medications harder, not easier.

    2) Getting a health care provider to prescribe a Class II substance instead of a Class III substance can be a substantial deterrent to obtaining the necessary medication.

  45. at a minimum, mark, the removal of a class 3 codone status means increase cost and time demands for people who need these drugs, for reasons that are specious.

  46. Amandaw: Mark and others have offered very well-reasoned and factual input to this discussion, clarifying important information about why these drugs may be banned and what that means for those who require them for pain management. Mark’s post had no attitude and not once did he imply anything about “God’s Gift To Us.” He didn’t even write that anything was “just that easy,” despite your use of quotes.

    I read Feministe often and agree with the bulk of what’s here, but your OP and follow-up comments have surprised me. Instead of fostering a discussion about the topic, you’ve responded to reasonable facts with emotional appeals, insults, and strawmen. I understand that the topic is of extreme importance to you, but you might make a more persuasive argument if you addressed the points made and realized that no one is attacking you.

    1. Rebecca:

      … offered very well-reasoned and factual input to this discussion, clarifying important information about why these drugs may be banned and what that means for those who require them for pain management.

      Except that I know why these drugs are going to be banned, so they weren’t telling me anything new, and they weren’t offering useful information on what that means for people like me, because we’ve been told “… so get used to dealing with even more obstacles!” ever since the day we were diagnosed.

      As for your use of the tone argument: really? Yes, I’ve responded with anger. I thought feminism has something to say about that.

      No one is attacking me, you say — I think the post offers very concrete evidence that yes, these very attitudes are creating hardship for me. If that isn’t an “attack,” what is? Just because they weren’t angry in tone, or personal insults?

    2. Also, I hope you realize that the reason I sometimes respond emotionally and sometimes carefully, at length and with reason is because I have a chronic pain condition. Sometimes I have the energy to respond carefully, at length and with reason. Sometimes, I do not. And either way, I have a right to anger. This is a basic feminist concept.

  47. Am I wrong in thinking that people with more severe pain who are denied the medicine that actually works for them are likelier to take larger doses of the less effective drugs and/or take them more often, which would mean that banning these drugs would counterproductive?

    EKSwitaj — I can’t speak for everyone, but yes, this is what I do, more or less. I try not to go above the maximum “safe” dosage for any given ingredient, but I’ve absolutely been known to take 3200mg of ibuprofen, 4000mg of acetaminophen, and 300mg of Benadryl (not effective with treating pain, but it does tend to make me loopy enough so that I don’t process it) in a single day. And sometimes I still hurt, so I’m tempted to take more.

    I’m not suggesting that this is an admirable or responsible approach to medication — and in fact, I worry about doing damage to myself from taking meds in this manner. I tend to think that taking less of a more effective medication would both work better and be safer for me — but apparently the health care providers I’ve encountered to date disagree.

  48. About the effects of the narcotic and aceteminophen together — I have a prescription narcotic that just contains the narcotic, nothing else. When I take it by itself, there is a very slight reduction in pain, but nothing major. Taking the narcotic and Tylenol at the same time, though, gives me a lot of pain relief. The drug effects aren’t just added together — combining them makes them work much better than just the sum of the two drugs. (I would love to be able to have that level of pain relief all the time, but every drug combination that does much more than just take the edge off the pain also puts me to sleep, so I need to deal with the pain during the day if I want to get anything done. I take NSAIDs and use a TENS unit to get some pain relief during the day.)

  49. The privilege in this thread is honestly astounding me. I have to thank those who have stopped in to offer their experiences and commiserate. The rest, though, is just leaving me depressed. You understand the idea of male privilege: you, as an able-bodied person, also have able privilege. Which means you might not see many of the ways in which the disabled face hardship in life because they lack that privilege.

    And yet, we’re sitting here telling you. If you refuse to reckon with that, well, I suggest you take a deeper look at whatever is animating you to identify as a feminist. Because it’s the same fucking concept.

  50. Rebecca, I’m terribly sorry the scary scary people with disabilities are not treating the temporarily non-disabled with the respect and deference they so rightly deserve. In the future, only those people with disabilities who have the energy to moderate their tone and carefully and repeteadly acknowledge that people without disbailities really are the experrts in what people with disabilities need will interact with the folks who are, of course, superior.

    The rest of us will just talk around y’all, since you obviously don’t really want to learn about our lived experience. I’m sure it won’t be hard for you to ignore what we have to say, since you seem to be doing a lovely job already.

    I look forward to being told I’m not nice enough, since I know how important it is for women with disabilities and their allies to be nice so we can get the things we need to surivive, and even have control over our own lives. Those of us who are not grateful enough for the attention you’re giving us are misbehaving PWD, whose concerns don’t need to be understood. I mean, just because most feminists suggest men who disagree with them spend some time listening and learning, instead of lecturing, doesn’t mean women with disabilities should expect the same treatment from their fellow feminists, right? That’s just expecting too much!

  51. I understand that the topic is of extreme importance to you, but you might make a more persuasive argument if you addressed the points made and realized that no one is attacking you.

    Get your bingo cards ready, y’all! Here comes the “let me tell you how you should make your argument” comment! Good to know that train is right on schedule.

  52. Rebecca, all the “well-reasoned and factual” arguments in the world are worth less than the dog shit on the bottom of my shoe if they ignore the realities of the people most affected by those arguments. (Sorry, is my tone too angry for you?)

    Mark’s argument implied that the additional barrier to pain relief wasn’t going to be significant. He didn’t say it outright probably because he didn’t even question whether having to buy an additional medicine would create great difficulties; this reflects his own unexamined privilege. Amandaw pointed out that for PWD who are already facing enormous obstacles every day, it could be a problem.

    Part of your objection here is that in doing so she expressed anger. So what? I know that when someone ignores my reality while positioning themselves as an expert on something that impacts that reality, it pisses me the hell off. Women don’t have to play nice and bottle up that anger, you know.

  53. I really don’t understand how those in the thread who have essentially said “but you can just take a tylenol with your meds!” don’t get that that extra pill is a big fricking deal. Many people with chronic conditions are on masses of pills already; many barely have the energy to manage the regimen they are already on.

    I challenge ANYONE to adhere to a regimen of some 10-15 pills a day and not want to cry in utter frustration at the thought of having to jury rig two pills where one used to be enough.

  54. Women don’t have to play nice and bottle up that anger, you know.

    The fact that this has to be reiterated on a feminist blog makes me want to weep.

  55. Mod Note

    Mark was way, way, way out of line — his points were addressed in the post above, and it also stated that comments like his were not welcome. And as a result, Rebecca is way out of line for defending him and indeed making a “tone” argument.

    Rebecca, I’m sorry if you’re surprised by this post and the response in comments to the TAB privilege. I’m sorry because it means that we must be doing a pretty damn shitty job of creating the kind of space here that I want to create.

    You folks should not need fucking babysitting. I assume that the vast majority of you are grown adults. As others here have said, you also seem to understand the concept of privilege perfectly well when it’s negatively impacting you. If you’re unable to turn that lens on yourself even when you’re called out, just stop and don’t comment. Seriously.

    Amanda was very, very clear about the kind of comments she said that she would allow on this post. It says very clearly in the Feministe comment policy that bloggers have the right to do exactly that. Further, I think that all of her requirements were not only reasonable and right, but shouldn’t have had to be fucking said in the first place.

    We have an overarching rule here, and it’s that if you can’t abide by the commenting rules, you’re not welcome to comment.

  56. amndaw said clearly in the OP that she would be strict in comments and would not allow patronizing comments. i read comments saying “you’ll still be able to get your pills with a little extra work” as minimizing the seriousness and significance of the issue raised in the OP to an astonishing degree. the implication that PWD shouldn’t be upset about this or think it is a big deal is patronizing to the extreme.

    given all that, it seems to me amndaw is being extremely generous to mark the asshole pharmacy tech by posting the comment in the first place and responding to it with anything requiring more time than a simple delete. especially since the whole fucking point is that adding one more pill to buy and take IS a huge deal to a PWD who already has a million pills to buy and take, a million extra fights to take on, just to effectively manage their condition. her taking the time to explain that – that is the very definition of the second shift for PWD. her anger at having to take on that role in a thread talking about yet another barrier erected for PWD to have to take on seems eminiently reasonable to me.

  57. Who wants to bet that beer is responsible for more liver damage/year than Vicodin?

    What about the complications of, say, Viagra or Accutane?

    Interesting how the zomg! it’s so dangerous! only applies when it isn’t your pain/problem.

  58. Yes, yes, yes, regarding pills having to be taken. Every time Don takes pain meds, he has to take an anti-nausea med, and then be fighting off the drowsiness caused by the pain med and the anti-nausea med. Sure, let’s just add a third pill to be taken at that time. They’re not already the size of bloody horse pills already.

  59. “They will just have to buy Tylenol seperately.”
    Couple points I wanted to add:

    1. I’m kinda getting confused as to just how buying tylenol seperately and trying to come up with one’s own combo would be an improvement over an exactly measured combination.

    2. What is the freaking problem with doctor’s educating their patients before handing over the script? My doctor warned me about tylenol levels but was empathetic enough to realize my pain could not be controlled and THAT was the priority because my pain had reached such a juncture that I could no longer function. And it was her job to treat that, not some problem that hadn’t occurred yet. I don’t understand why people are so quick to think that liver damage is a far worse scenario then chronic and dibilitating pain. She warned me of taking additional medications containing tylenol and kept an eye on my dosage levels. It’s actually her job to do all that! So, If we’re so damn fixated on what people “just have to do” maybe doctors and pharmacies just have to be a little more informative when doling out the pill while keeping in mind that chronic pain cannot be left untreated under any circumstances.

    4. For those who keep saying they’ve never had this kind of pain “but”…just cut out the “but” okay? You can’t possibly even imagine and if you just can’t seem to understand why Amanda has “a tone”, it’s simply because you just can’t understand.

  60. I am so incredibly thankful that my mom was able to get her pain pump installed before this clusterf**k hit. Before that, she was on Kadian (extended relief morphine) with Vicodin for “breakthrough pain” — aka, the pain that morphine wasn’t enough to control. The Dilaudid to the spine is managing her pain much better than the pills ever did, and she doesn’t have to deal with moronic pharmacists to get it refilled.

    I’m just… not even coherent. The level of privilege exhibited makes me sputter.

  61. Um. I suffer from migraines, and if they ever ban acetaminophen, there goes my best medication for fighting one off at onset: Excedrin. I will then be forced to turn to prescription meds, all of which are scary. Every single prescription med for migraines that I’ve looked at so far has cardiovascular damage as one of its side-effects. ‘Scuse me, but my liver can regenerate, and my heart can’t. Furthermore, someone would have to die to give me a new heart, but liver donors are often living because, again, the liver regenerates.

    I don’t take Excedrin *often*, but I do have to take it sometimes. I still have to sleep off the headache and associated all-around malaise, but it beats puking my guts out and wanting to die.

    Now. I have been prescribed hydrocodone meds before, for tooth abscess pain. When I was a teenager I OD’d on aspirin, which made me sicker than a dog (don’t ask–it was a bad year). I have also accidentally taken one too many hydrocodone. No contest. I sat on my living room sofa after the latter, freaking the hell out and struggling to keep breathing and thanking God I hadn’t taken the dose just before bed. I would have preferred the puking and the chemical taste in my mouth.

    Also, people get addicted to that stuff, and meds in the morphine class frequently trigger allergies. I have not made a point of seeking out hydrocodone since the tooth abscess experience, on the rare occasion I have pain that justifies it, because I also experienced itching when I took it. I’m sure there are people allergic to Tylenol, but as I have not heard a lot about that particular allergy, I don’t think it’s as common. It certainly is not a drug frequently associated with addiction.

    Honestly, I think some people take more Tylenol or for longer than they need to, but I think part of the problem is not having good access to a doctor. If it’s pay half a grand to get into an urgent care for a pain problem and have a bunch of lab tests and an X-ray done, or pop a pill to make the pain go away, anyone with no or no adequate insurance is going to choose the latter unless they’re pretty sure they’re going to die or a body part is misshapen or a bone’s sticking out. And that’s the sorry state of things.

  62. Also, comment #64 rocks, and her remarks about doctors taking responsibility for their patients rather than the patients being blamed for everything, reminds me of the way the USDA expects consumers to prevent all cases of their own food poisoning rather than the USDA doing its damn job and inspecting food-packaging facilities like it’s supposed to do. I know it’s cliché to say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure… but it’s also *true.*

    And ditto about the pain thing. Ditto, ditto, ditto. Migraine is not the only extreme pain I’ve suffered over the years. I had this debilitating joint pain and swelling during my second pregnancy that had me popping Advil even though it was not cleared as safe for the fetus because it was the only thing that eased the pain enough that I could sleep. Or walk. Or, y’know, function. That level of pain does things to your headspace, too. You’d do anything to make it go away, which is why we still have debates in this country about medical marijuana even though the DEA wishes we wouldn’t.

  63. If Mark wants to pull rank, then right fucking back atcha, Mark. I’m a doctor AND a person with a painful invisible disability, and this proposal will be a complete fucking disaster. Because I KNOW DAMN WELL how doctors talk and think about people who are on narcotic medication for non-cancer pain, and I KNOW DAMN WELL how they treat people who are on or who are requesting narcotic medication for invisible disabilities, and I know this from both ends. And I’m in Australia, where our attitude to opiates is on the whole far, far better than in the USA.

    A change in schedule and an increase in number of pills is an absolutely giant deal, and WILL be a pain in the arse _even if the medication is obtainable_, WILL result in people not getting the pain medication they need, WILL result in major, major problems for people with disabilities.

    If you do want to be all prissy-mouthed rationalist instead of exhibiting actual compassion for people with disabilities, I’m also worried that it will result in an increase in the use of street drugs instead of pharmaceutical obtained drugs, and an increase in suicide.

    Show me the aspirin and NSAIDs being up-scheduled for causing catastrophic gastrointestinal haemorrhages, the penicillin being up-scheduled for causing fatal anaphylaxis, the thiazides being up-scheduled for causing brain-damaging hyponatraemia, and the ACE inhibitors being up-scheduled for kicking people into kidney failure; then I might start to look at the hypothesis that this restriction is all about safety. Until then, it’s just yet another manifestation of the frenzied moral panic over opiates.

  64. Apparently the key to being listened to by folks with privilege is to be nice about it. Where is this, PHB?

  65. I’m also a pharmacy technician, but in Australia, which has universal healthcare and heavily subsidised prescriptions. In Australia, we don’t have Vicodin or Percoset. Hydrocodone is a stand-alone product – codeine is the combination product. From a health POV, I think hydrocodone/paracetamol is a dangerous combination, as is over-the-counter codeine/ibuprofen – we are looking at upscheduling that. (We don’t seem to have much of a problem with OTC codeine/paracetamol, though the prescription strength is an issue.)

    The lack of a hydrocodone/paracetamol combined tablet is not a major problem here because it’s not forcing PWD to jump through bureaucratic hoops (or pay vast amounts of money or wrangle with insurance companies) to get their pain medication. The problem you are describing is not a problem with the FDA advisory board, it’s a problem with your entire heathcare system, including the pharmacy/insurance company nexus. Vicodin *is* a dangerous drug, like many others. All drugs have risks and benefits. If they change the availability, they need to be aware of the social, ethical and medical repercussions – and it sounds to me as if none of that is being considered.

  66. Chiming in with Jadey at #16:

    I am seriously tempted to lay some blame on House MD for current perceptions of Vicodin as a scarybad drug, but I think it was already out there and House just gave it more hype.

    Clueless members of highfalutin advisory panels are probably just relying on TV-drama for their info, though.

  67. The place to worry about accidental overdosing is not with people who are in severe pain and who know how to manage their pain. I agree with those who have pointed out that the onus is on doctors and pharmacists to fully explain the medications to patients – not to *police* patients. I also agree with those who have pointed out that sometimes the risk of liver disease or ANY OTHER POTENTIAL SIDE EFFECT is a better risk to take than living without the medication. (I’m taking Tamoxifen, which can have some serious side effects, including blot clots and stroke. But hopefully, it will protect me from CANCER. And the risk of the cancer is greater than the risk of the blot clots and stroke.)

    I don’t think that people who have not lived with severe pain understand how debilitating and exhausting it is, in addition to being excruciating. And yes, taking additional daily pills and trying to time everything just right (this one you have to take on an empty stomach; these with food; this you can’t take with that other one) is a huge hassle and an unfair imposition.

  68. 2) Getting a health care provider to prescribe a Class II substance instead of a Class III substance can be a substantial deterrent to obtaining the necessary medication.

    Yes. THAT. A schedule 3 or 4 can be refilled (5 refills in a 6-month period); a schedule 2 needs a new scrip every single month. I already know what a pain in the keister that can be from having to take a schedule 2 stimulant instead of the schedule 4 because the insurance company thinks the schedule 4 is too expensive; it means you can’t just call in refills, you have to troop down there in person with each individual prescription and then have to wait around or go back again to pick it up. That’s a considerable amount of schlepping even for me, and I don’t have mobility issues; I can only imagine what that’s like for someone who does.

    Also, in some states there are restrictions on how long you can hold a scrip before you can fill it, so that also means many more trips to the doctor to get the scrips in the first place. More schlepping. Even more ridiculous when you consider that the real overdose/interaction potential is in people without a legit prescription, who are buying it on the black market or getting it from friends or stealing it from other people’s medicine chests or using stolen scrip pads, and combining them with alcohol or other substances that in aggregate could make them very, very sick or even kill them. How many of those people really should have a legit prescription, and just can’t get one? No one knows.

  69. Wow, the number of people who don’t get that there’s a vast desert between schedule II and schedule III in terms of access. I’ve been on a wide variety of pain management drugs, before my ehlers-danlos weakened stomach finally refused to accept any more (I’m now on a combo of voltaren and lidoderm, and let me tell you getting lidoderm for really off label use is Lots of Fun). I miss vicodin, and if it hadn’t gotten to the point where even a single one left me vomiting for hours I’d still be taking it. Yes, even knowing it was slowly shredding my stomach it was worth it to deal with the pain of the constantly dislocated joints.

  70. Yes. This. I am really glad you said this.

    this reminded me of my experience trying to get treatment for mental health particularly the “why are you letting a GP deal with this” When she is one of the few people who knows what the hell is going on.

  71. Yeah, I am amazed at the people who are saying this is no big deal because you can just get a bottle of Tylenol with your hydrocodone or what have you. People, even aside from the extra risk of splitting the drugs into two pills and the not-necessarily-trivial cost of the Tylenol, Schedule II drugs are a much bigger pain in the ass to obtain than Schedule III drugs like Vicodin. (Which is saying something, given the way people who need these kinds of drugs for pain management are treated already.)

    Every month (since they can’t prescribe more than 30 days’ worth of a Schedule II drug) you have to see a physician (or nurse practitioner, iff you live in a state where they’re allowed to prescribe Schedule II substances) to get a written prescription (no calling it into the pharmacy). So: you have to go for an office visit up to six times as often as you might otherwise. This consumes a significant amount of time and energy, which is an especially big issue for – you guessed it – people with the kinds of chronic pain conditions making them dependent on these medications in the first place. After this, you’ll probably have more of a hassle to deal with at the pharmacy, since they may be required to take extra measures to verify that it’s a legit scrip, or when you go to pick it up they may take ten minutes to find the key to the safe it’s kept in (or is that just our pharmacy?).

    Am I missing something? I’ve learned here that many health professionals are more reluctant than I had imagined to give legitimate patients needed medication; is this true to such an extent that the additional regulations and restrictions imposed wouldn’t be significantly different in practice?

    (And even if this is the case, shouldn’t we be trying to make it easier for chronic pain patients to access care rather than further codifying the obstacles they face?)

  72. After my step-dad was diagnosed with liver problems, my mom knew not to give him Tylenol but they hadn’t warned her about what else it’s in. I warned her about it and now she is very careful to check the ingredients list before letting him take stuff.

    I’ve always thought a nice big note on OTC meds with acetaminophen would be a good idea and would probably result in fewer people accidentally overdosing on their cold meds.

  73. Fucking hell. Seriously…do you need a chronic pain condition to understand the problem here? People’s bodies are different and sometimes managing pain is more important than long term organ damage.

    I can’t take narcotics…they make me sleep. I took half a dose of oxy once and slept for 22 hours. Instead when I have severe pain, my dr prescribes higher than recommended doses of ibuprofen. Other people can take oxy and function. Medicine isn’t exact and if someone finds something that works for them, that let’s them accomplish things they need or want to do, then butt the hell out. If there was a better solution, I bet $5 trillion dollars the people suffering with chronic pain, will be the first to know about it.

    If you want to fix the side effects then get your pompous, condescending ass to a research lab and build a better drug/treatment rather than telling people who are suffering that they’re shit out of luck because you don’t approve of what they’re doing to their own damn bodies.

    [Mumble, mumble, paternalistic asshats….]

  74. Ahh, lauredhel. It’s times like this I want to lay big wet kisses on your wonderful angry mug. *hugs*

    Right on, amandaw. This shit is absolutely crazy, and my heart is with all chronic pain sufferers in the States that might suffer from this bullshit. You’ve been so brave and awesome in this whole thread though, in the face of a lot of ignorance. Kudos and my sincerest thanks. I feel like people here, for the most part, get it.

  75. I’ve been struggling for a way to comment that doesn’t seem like piling on, but seriously – why is it so hard for people without chronic pain conditions or other disabilities to understand why *any* change in what works for people can be dehabilitating? Hell, I can have a week of daily breakthrough pain if I change a *brand* of supplement in my migraine prevention cocktail, let alone an actual change in formulation or dosage.

    As someone said above, BODIES ARE DIFFERENT. Really, it cannot be said enough. How we respond to pain and medications are different. Those of us who take multiple pills a day just to function do not need to hear from an internet doctor/nurse/pharmacy tech about how the pills we take could harm our bodies. The pain we would have without these medications harms us too and it is a tradeoff. I have been on drugs where the side effects were ultimately worse than daily pain. I’ve become suicidal because of a known drug reaction that the FDA took YEARS to make a black box warning and then over the objections of people who were able to take it without ill effect. I’ve almost taken the wrong pain med because I got labels messed up while in the throws of pain and aura so intense I was losing vision – now I should try to determine an appropriate multiple pill dosage at the same time?

    Just because there are other potentially effective options, it doesn’t mean those options work. For some of us, there is virtually nothing that is effective. Reducing our options and removing things that DO work is not something we need to find acceptable just because we’re told there are other options.

  76. Thanks to W. Kiernan for making the distinction between Schedule II & III– I was totally unaware that Vicodin was Schedule III, which makes a huge difference.

    Again, I wasn’t trying to minimize anyone’s pain, though I apparently did a decent job of it anyway. (Having lost a loved one to liver failure– no, Tylenol was not involved as far as I was aware– I’m sensitive to the issue, though I can understand why someone in chronic pain might think it’s worth the risk.)

    1. Persia, thanks for the reply. I’m sorry to hear about your loss — and I appreciate that you came back respectfully. Thanks.

  77. Wow, the number of people who don’t get that there’s a vast desert between schedule II and schedule III in terms of access.

    Or for some of us, live in a country where the scheduling is entirely different – but are still often affected by FDA rulings, even though they shouldn’t even apply to our country. Any hydrocodone product is Schedule 8 here.

  78. They already took the pseudoephedrine out of NyQuil because people used it to make meth. The new formula for NyQuil works like shit.

  79. What all the people who seem so concerned about addiction seem to be missing is that they’re not recommending banning these drugs because of their potential to be addictive. They’re recommending dropping them because of frakking TYLENOL. But they are NOT recommending taking Tylenol or tylenol-containing products off pharmacy shelves where six year olds can buy them! They specifically rejected that idea, despite the fact that most people who OD on Tylenol do so by taking over-the-counter products. This is NOT about protecting people. If it was, those drugs would be the first to go because MORE PEOPLE have access to them. All the talk about addiction is a fucking red herring and a massive derail.

    IF this were about protecting people from the danger of liver damage from taking Tylenol, then FRAKKING TYLENOL would be the first drug pulled. Not Tylenol plus Narcotic. They’re going after the medications that require a doctor’s intervention to procure. They’re going after the medications that, more likely than OTC stuff, will come with physician provided information about the dangers of taking too much. They’re going after medications that are generally taken by the patients with the MOST medical information. This isn’t about protecting people, it’s about our culture’s hysteria over narcotics and ‘addiction.’ It’s about able-bodied people telling themselves that it’s ok to take those medications away, because *I* will never need them! Except you know what? You just might. I didn’t need more than a frakking aspirin until I woke up one morning and couldn’t move. Now I’m taking 8 pills a day just so I can work, so I can have health insurance to pay for my 8 pills a day.

    As for the whole ‘well, you can just buy Tylenol separately’ — lots of people with chronic pain issues cannot frakking afford to do that. Seriously, my Vicodin is $3 for a month’s supply. BUT — it would cost me $50 a month to buy the non-Tylenol form, because my insurance doesn’t LIKE that brand. Add another $10 for a bottle of Tylenol (or in my case, Ibuprofen) and suddenly, I’m paying $57 more a month for the bare minimum I need to get by. That may not sound like much, but when I’m also paying for 7 other medications — several of which are $50 a pop — that adds up. And I have AMAZING insurance, because I work for the state. A great many people with chronic pain issues don’t have insurance because they can’t work. Or they have insurance, but it flat out refuses to pay for certain medications. Or they’re on government programs that cap the number of ‘scripts it will pay for per month. It’s NOT as easy as just picking up another bottle of Tylenol.

  80. From Rebecca’s twitter account: “So bummed. Discovered 1 of my favorite sources, Feministe, is full of angry, unreasonable people. Just got attacked for not agreeing.”

    You weren’t attacked for not agreeing. You were responded to, in the way that you were responded to, for telling someone to “calm down”, which in effect is minimizing the pain they’re speaking about. But it is interesting that you would immediately run to twitter to have your perspective reaffirmed and backed up by your legions of white male followers.

    Just sayin’.

    1. For the record: I was careful, in the original post, to be reasonable, to avoid arguments from emotion, to avoid cursing, and so forth. I explained clearly and concisely what was happening, why it was happening, and then why I believed it was wrong, providing background in a “reasonable” voice so that more people might be inclined to actually listen to me, rather than dismissing me as an unreasonable/emotional/etc. patient.

      And then I had people pop in to “explain why” it was happening — which I had just explained myself in the post. Because obviously, I can’t already understand the “why” and still disagree. All it takes is just a reasonable explanation from an authoritative source, and that should be enough to seal the case, right?

      It’s a common response to these complaints: people with rank to pull will pull it, and “helpfully” explain Why Things Are The Way They Are, and that’s supposed to be that. But it’s not. That’s what my entire body of work revolves around, is moving beyond that mode of thinking, actually looking at evidence and listening to patients and understanding what is actually troubling them, and doing our best to address the failures of the system. Rather than just trusting the system, because That’s How It Is.

      Yes, I responded angrily, because people marched in here and tried to tell us that we just didn’t understand how things worked, and if only we would let them teach us we would understand, and wouldn’t worry about it anymore! THAT’S NOT HOW IT WORKS. We already fucking understand how things work. Maybe if you could step out of your able-bodied privilege for a moment, out of the assumption that you know everything that’s important to know so there’s no reason to listen to people without the privilege you carry, maybe you could hear our voices, and realize that we already damn well understand your world and how it works, and still think it is harmful and needs to be dismantled.

      Yeah, ok, I’m unreasonable. Whatthefuckever. I was completely reasonable and I still faced the same bullshit. Fat lot of good it did me, right? You go be reasonable with your buddies. I’ll be over here trying to make a damn difference in people’s lives.

  81. In other words, I was doing it right.

    Of course you were. I am so sorry you had to go through that, amandaw, and thank you so much for all your work on these issues.

    This isn’t about protecting people, it’s about our culture’s hysteria over narcotics and ‘addiction.’

    Exactly right.

    I’ve been disabled by a chronic condition for 10 years come next month, from age 29 to age 39 and counting. One of my disabling symptoms is chronic pain and I cannot get it adequately managed. Narcotics don’t work to manage my pain past a few weeks, the non-narc rx meds that some patients can use successfully don’t work for me at all, and I’ve recently got ulcer symptoms again from the damn ibuprofen, so I am currently pretty well fucked. It could be worse, it has been worse, but it’s still bad.

    Now, even this being the case, I have to run interference every. single. time. I see a new doctor because with very few exceptions they are on homeland security level red alert for someone with chronic pain asking for anything. I will say, “I have tried narcotics and they do not work for me, I have also tried non-narc X, Y & Z with no success, can you help me find an effective way to reduce my pain that doesn’t involve making Advil a mainstay of my diet?” And they will begin by telling me that they will not prescribe narcotics and then giving me a lecture on why. LIKE I AM IN AN ABBOTT & COSTELLO SKIT FROM HELL.

    1. Jen in Ohio — hah, YES. They never seem to actually listen to what we’re saying. It’s like they just listen for the key words, plug them in to some simplistic formula and spit out the result. They hear “vicodin” and have to lecture you on how awful it is and how they’ll never give it to you ever ever, even when YOU JUST TOLD THEM YOU DIDN’T WANT IT.

      I hate the Vicodin, for what it’s worth. But I hate being stuck in pain even more. I’d rather be able to do certain things. So I take it. But if there were some way to get rid of my pain without the narcotics, trust me, I’d be first in line.

      But it’s like they all think we’re just in it for the high, or we’re too stupid to realize there are other drugs out there or something. No, sometimes, just sometimes, those drugs actually aren’t the best choice for our situation. As I said in the post: Every body is different. This is something many, many TAB people have trouble comprehending.

  82. Just echoing that this has absolutely nothing to do about addiction in that they are not concerned about the addictive nature of the drugs. What it has to do with addictions is the fact that people hear “vicodin” and freak out because of all the scary commercials so the FDA panel is probably using that as an added push to make the ruling they did.

    It’s all bullshit though and more of this “protecting us from ourselves” rather than allowing us to make an informed decision. But of course, it’s so hard to find someone in the medical field that actually believes that we, as patients, you know the ones that live with pain or anxiety or other issues, know what’s going on and are being truthful.

    I have extreme panic attacks when I get on a plane and need some type of benzodiazpine to make it without hyperventilating. I went to one doctor and he treated me like a doctor shopper no matter what I said and only would write me a prescription for 5 pills.

  83. Justsaying, I’m not really interested in what Rebecca does on Twitter. I also chatted with people on Twitter about my frustration with this thread. If you have issue with what Rebecca said on Twitter, take it up with her there.

  84. It’s hard to be reasonable when pain is all up in your face and making you insane.

    My husband has now learned when I am profoundly an asshole and am breaking into tears randomly to say, “Yes or no. Have you eaten? Do you need a pain pill?” because those two things will make a huge difference.

    I’ve gotten a lot of relief on Tramadol, but can nod vigorously to the pill-managing thing. If I go on something that is three times a day I’ll have to go to a different pill sorter to manage it, and that will be a massive pain in the ass. And, for a data point, I’ve been on Vicodin, and while it works. I appear to be much too sensitive to the gastrointestinal effects to take it longterm.

    1. Alexandra, yep. I’m on six different drugs to manage my pain. Lyrica, tramadol, Effexor, cyclobenzaprine, continuous birth control and Vicodin. Lyrica can’t even be abused for a high, because it doesn’t really have an effect on people who do not have a neurological pain condition. And yet, because I take the Vicodin at all I am treated like I am just trying to get high. People don’t seem to realize that each one of those six drugs is an essential component to my pain management, and if you take any one of them away my condition will be significantly worse. I’d be just as angry if someone were restricting my access to the cyclobenzaprine (muscle relaxer) as I am now about the Vicodin. I’m not in it for the narcotic high, I’m in it to be able to live my life.

      And yeah, it would be shit if all of a sudden in addition to the (counting)… 14 pills per day not counting the Vicodin… I had to start taking 2-3+ pills where I took one before.

  85. It’s not only shit and a PITA, it’s flat out *dangerous* to add pills without need. Despite the “oh noes! drug interaction” comment upthread–um yeah, drug interaction are Big Deal. You know what makes them a Bigger Deal? Adding more potential factors to interact with each other.

    Sigh.

    Amandaw, I’m surprised you don’t get crap for the tramadol as well. Just goes to show the bizarre stereotyping around Vicodin. Damn it, I really did have SUCH a crush on Hugh Laurie, too….

  86. I suspect that in fact this is about addiction, and the “Tylenol is bad for you!” thing is an excuse.

    Because Vicodin/Percoset is Schedule III, it’s much easier to get and therefore easier to abuse than plain oxycodone would be. I think the “Tylenol is bad for you” is a red herring, since they are not in fact talking about making Tylenol harder to get; they want an excuse to take a prescription med that is involved in addictions and abuse off the streets.

    But here is what I don’t get, and I never will get. Why is it SO FUCKING IMPORTANT to keep a small number of people from illicitly getting high and hurting themsleves as a result that it justifies making huge numbers of people with real medical problems suffer? Hell, I don’t get the rationale behind making it harder to get sudefed; a few extra meth addicts in the world versus all the people with colds and allergies, which is probably all of us? Why is it *so important* to avoid letting people get addicted to stuff that we let those with a medical need suffer?

    I had a friend with Crohn’s disease once. He was in the hospital, and they did some stuff, and when he got out he was in frequent pain. They told him he had gotten addicted to the morphine while in the hospital. In order for him to get pain medication, he had to go to the addiction clinic to get methadone, and they made him do a rehab program with drug addicts. He found this intensely humiliating, because he never chose to get addicted to drugs; he was given them in the hospital. (Which in itself says something about notions of people who “choose” drug addiction being deserving of such humiliating treatment, but this wasn’t a particularly well-educated or progressive guy.) It turned out, after he had another episode, that he was never addicted to anything; he was in severe pain because they had done his surgery wrong and there was still something drastically wrong with his GI tract, but because he was a poor disabled man on Medicaid who needed pain meds, they just assumed that he had to be a drug addict and that was the whole reason for his pain. They made him jump through hoops to get meds for a condition that, had it been addiction, would have been caused directly by his hospital clinicians anyway and in no way his fault (not that I think he would have deserved the hoops *had* it been his fault, but the whole concept of therapy and rehab for drug addicts falls apart if the addict has literally never consciously chosen to take the thing they’re addicted to), and it turned out it wasn’t addiction at all. It was pain, because they hadn’t done his surgery right.

    While I myself have never had a chronic pain condition, I have taken Perc after surgery (first a c-section, and four years later surgery to repair the damage the c-section and the subsequent pregnancy did to my abdominal wall), and the concept of *banning* the drugs because some people misuse them, because of a component in them that’s OVER THE COUNTER, just strikes me as insane. We don’t ban drugs that have medical purposes unless the damage they cause outweighs the good, and if the component causing the damage is an OTC med that everyone takes, including babies… then WTF?

    The problem here, I think, is the Puritan mindset that says that if people are in pain they should just tough it out, no pain no gain, we were put on this earth to suffer, blah blah blah. People are not supposed to seek medication for pain. They’re supposed to be macho and just grit their teeth and bear it. Where did we get such fucked-up attitudes that pleasure is supposed to be highly suspect and usually immoral, and people are supposed to endure pain without complaining? Who made up this shit?

  87. I’m sure this post will be lost in the thread, but anyways…

    When I work in a clinic where the poor and underserved people come, we get more than our fair share of drug seekers. We have to balance the needs of people with chronic pain against the risk that people just want pain pills to get high or sell.

    One way the clinic does this is by NOT prescribing medications that are frequently abused, like Vicoden or Percocett. Instead we will prescribe opoids that have smaller risk factors like Morphine, Methadone or a Fentynol Patch. We also verify through State records online that the patient is not a known drug seeker and does not have multiple prescription through multiple doctors (or ERs)

  88. Alexandra Lynch, I hear that. Because Don’s pain is so high on a regular basis he often doesn’t notice he’s in pain until he’s snapping at me and generally very short tempered and irritable. Which is the reality of being in a chronic pain condition.

    Making things more difficult is not a good answer.

  89. “And yet, because I take the Vicodin at all I am treated like I am just trying to get high.”

    That reminds me of the horrible pain specialist I had who did injections on me and who was the mother of all dickheads. Sorry there is no less crass way to put it. He decided I was taking too many narcotics and put me on some crap called Soma. Now what idiot in their right mind would name a drug that is beyond me, but on top of it, the pills didn’t work for crap, I might as well have been taking flinstone’s vitamins. This scumbag would also lecture me on how the way I was limping was making my back worse when I didn’t have a freaking choice because my leg was in chronic accute pain to the point that I could not walk any other way. At my lowest point I would be on my hands and knees on my floor because it was the only position I could stand without searing pain. And this scumbag is bitching about how I walk and taking too many pills. And this man’s title was Pain Specialist!

    Now keep in mind I had dealt with my back problem for a year before I sought treatment and only did so because I had been using a heating pad for months and ended up with what was essentially burns on my leg. That’s right I literally burned my veins trying to control the pain without pills. So I guess we should ban heating pads too? Even When I got the official diagnosis of a bulging disc that was pressing on the nerve (which shot pain down thru my leg) even then I took the conservative approach of physical therapy before I ended up in the ER being shot up with morphine. Now luckily I was able to have surgery after months of torture. But I guarantee you I would still be in the same condition if not for my primary doctor who fought like hell to get me better. And I’m still dealing with the mental side effects of what I went through, knowing full well how lucky I am too be on the other side, at least to some extent.

    Also for Amanda and all those who are working so hard to educate people on disability and chronic pain, I can’t thank you enough. These blogs and bloggers have been a huge resource and taught me to stand up for myself, and that is huge.

  90. Some of the comments on this thread are bizarre. It’s not too much to actually trust the judgment of people with disabilities is it? You know, the people who have to negotiate pain management and docrtors and pharmacists and insurance just plain bloody everyday life.

    No, regulators *must* have a Very Good Reason for this bait-n-switch and people with chronic pain are just being drama queens about how much harder this would make their lives.

    Blurg.

  91. MOD NOTE: From now on, unacceptable comments are getting Queen Em’s panda treatment. -amandaw

  92. MOD NOTE: From now on, unacceptable comments are getting Queen Em’s panda treatment. -amandaw

  93. Oh no, Harry P. Your post won’t get lost. It should get deleted for being condescendingly irrelevant in ways that violate the standards laid out in the originlal post and repeatedly in the comments thread, but hey, I’ll bite. In what way, exactly, does your experience with drug-seeking folks relate to those of us who are trying to continue to function and be more or less productive members of society despite having to live with chronic and extremely painful conditions? What does drug-seeking behaviour have to do with bloody Tylenol? After all, that is the putative reason for the recommendation to ban hydrocodone and oxycodone in combination with acitaminophen/paracetamol.

  94. You guys, have you looked over the letter Amanda wrote to her clinic? I’ve never read anything like it. I’ve never met anyone who has to suffer like that, for such a prolonged period of time. I think my mouth was dropping open the entire time. Amanda is not talking about minor aches and pains, she’s talking about debilitating pain that she seems to be subjected to nearly constantly. To be forced to jump through hoops on top of that? I just can’t imagine. I would be so boiling angry that I wouldn’t be nearly as coherent as she is. Amanda has mentioned before that she suffers chronic pain, but I don’t remember her really extrapolating on it, and I’m not sure we’re understanding here the extent of her suffering. Also, Amanda, out of curiosity, did you hear back from the clinic regarding your experience with Dr. P? I’d like to know if they took steps to remedy the situation.

  95. i didn’t get that it was a big deal to take another pill until i read all HUNDRED of these comments. but i think i get it now. and i’m glad i read all of the comments… i wouldn’t have understood or thought about it in a different way if i hadn’t read the post along with the comments. so thanks for taking the time to explain things!

  96. By the way, that comment was directed at fellow able bodied, non-chronic pain suffers, not those of your with chronic pain. Chronic pain is pretty far outside my realm of experience personally, and Amanda’s letter to her clinic really brought home to me what chronic pain is all about.

  97. MOD NOTE: From now on, unacceptable comments are getting Queen Em’s panda treatment. -amandaw

    null

  98. You know what else? When you’re taking a schedule II, the pharmacy will not tell you whether they stock it. Many don’t, except for the commonest variants. When you call and say “I have a prescription for [insert drug], can you fill it?” they say in horror “That’s Schedule II!” and won’t tell you for fear of burglary. Then you show up in person and wait in line to be told that they don’t have it, then they call around other pharmacies in their chain who don’t have it, and then you get to drive from chain to chain until you find somebody who stocks it.

    The form is on a special prescription pad; my doctor once ran out and had to scramble around the office to find another doctor who had one and was willing to write the prescription. The prescription itself has to be treated like a bearer bond; if I lose it, I won’t get another. Which, when you’re searching for a pharmacy that will accept it, is an additional worry. Because the prescription can only be written once a month, not only do you need monthly visits, but you need to carefully count days between visits to make sure you won’t run out before your next appointment.

    And then, as others in this thread has mentioned, it is *so much fun* when you talk to the doctor on call who isn’t your MD, and the on-call freaks out in horror that you’re taking a Schedule II drug and tells you “I can’t do anything else for pain relief.” I wound up having a heart-to-heart with my primary doctor on What To Do To Avoid Being Seen As A Drug Seeker. (Answer: Next time, show up at the ER, and tell them I’m happy to take Toradol.)

    My neuro and I talked for an hour, at two separate visits, before he decided that a Schedule II drug was the only remaining treatment for my chronic pain. (Note that I’m already taking six other medications.) It was his suggestion, not mine. And every-fricking-else part of my society treats me like a voluntary drug abuser.

  99. CC, Amanda’s letter is amazingly eloquent and horrifying and I so strongly recommend that anyone read it, particularly anyone still suspecting that there is a mountain being made of a molehill here.

    Unfortunately, variations on her experience are so far from rare as to be possitively common among chronic pain sufferers. Being told that we are overreacting or addicted or drug seeking or just plain wrong is a regular occurance for many of us.

  100. Harry P,

    you have to balance the risk and you decided that you’d rather let chronic sufferers of pain get denied medication than risk them being drug seekers. That seems completely backward especially since there’s a pretty quick computer search to determine if someone has had multiple perscription refills from mulitple doctors in a short amount of time

    I work at a mental health /mediacl cliniec as well and the isssue about methadone and morphine being less abused is bull shit. They’re just not as many perscriptions in circulations. If people are going to abuse drugs they will, instead of wringing our hands about whether they’re “getting one over one us” we should focus on providing medical care for those in need

  101. 🙂

    How else do you respond to (unreasonable I will note, because again they did not ban OTC Tylenol) accusations that you just don’t care if people die so you can have the luxury of pain relief?

    Pandas are much easier on the soul.

  102. Also, they are fuzzy. Although reportedly quite cantankerous if touched (like most bears).

    Sigh. I really don’t know what to say to the pandas. Maybe a little bingo–in DavidBrewer’s comment I count:

    –fat shaming (oh noes obesity epidemic ahhhhh!)
    –slut shaming (whoring out? really?)
    –whatever you call “shut up and stay in your place so you don’t distract me” shaming
    –think of the (poor disabled) children!

    and more, but I lost patience with re-reading.

  103. recognize that you have chronic pain and feel appropriately sorry for you

    Wow, appropriately sorry. How much sorry is that?

    but would you prefer to trade it for a non-functioning liver? Would you prefer to be on dialysis or to have a liver transplant?

    I believe the answer for many people is “yes”. As you note, there are steps that can be taken in some cases with liver failure. The steps that must be taken for unendurable pain (did you catch the word “unendurable”?) are medication that works to alleviate pain. Further, the pain is a certainty; the liver failure is a risk.

    If you were on fire, would you prefer to burn rather than risk the toxins of a chemical fire extinguisher?

    Your health decisions affect us all in the cost of medical care, in your productivity, in the percentage of people dedicated to caring for you (nurses, doctors, pharmacists, etc.) as opposed to actually producing something of value.

    Wait a minute. So, your argument is that people should suffer unendurable pain so that your premiums will be lowered, and that people with chronic pain don’t produce anything of value. Lovely.

    Whining isn’t a quality to be admired. Little children every day suffer with debilitating or fatal diseases and try their best to get through and retain their dignity and enjoy their lives and people like you constantly complain about the terrible lot in life they have been dealt…

    Here we go – I was waiting for you to bring in whining and the little children who are better at suffering. Not only does that give us an indication of just how “appropriately sorry” you are, but it also nicely diminishes the children’s pain and suffering, and also infantilizes adults with disabilities. Way to go!

    I heard similar things from a surgeon who had absolutely no compassion for people with with chronic pain, who also mentioned how their existence impinged on his own freedoms and who also invoked “whining.” He had an accident and severely hurt his back and was in tremendous chronic pain. I suspect this altered his attitude as well as his life. I hope that you are able to find some compassion and to recognize the ugliness of what you have said here without having to experience such a thing personally.

  104. Chava,

    Also:

    — think of the health care providers who could be “actually producing something of value” instead of, you know, caring for patients.

    People shouldn’t be made to feel guilty about needing whatever health care they need.

  105. Sweet Baby Cheeses, since when was suffering in silence a frakking virtue? That’s bullshit. You’re just setting yourself up to be a martyr when, hey, you could be getting some damned pain relief and having a life.

    And this: “in the percentage of people dedicated to caring for you (nurses, doctors, pharmacists, etc.) as opposed to actually producing something of value”

    So, medical professionals doing their jobs and taking care of sick people is the opposite of valuable? Wow. I do have to give you props though, for coming out and out-right saying that disabled people have no value.

    You know, turning people who suffer in silence — at least around YOU — into this idea of the Perfect Disabled Person does us all a disservice. Turning all disabled people into suffering patient angels is frakked up. It dehumanizes us. It denies us our agency and our voice. I’m supposed to be quiet and be happy for the crumbs I get? Yeah. Fuck that. You want to suffer silently? Fine. You do that. I’ll be making a lot of frakking noise to make sure we all get the damned meds that we need.

    1. As far as “actually producing something of value” goes, my pain medication allows me to work.

      Why people cannot comprehend this, I don’t know. If you really cared about pure production, you’d be in agreement with me about this regulation and you’d be trying to make it easier on me to continue my pain treatment!

  106. I don’t understand it either, Amanda. I work full-time, I pay for my own healthcare, I help keep four doctors in business — but somehow that’s not productive? If I didn’t have my meds, I’d be unable to work. Full-stop. Not part-time, not occassionally. Without my meds I’d be struggling to get out of bed in the mornings, much less put a coherent thought together. Hell, maybe they’d prefer we didn’t have our meds ’cause then we wouldn’t have the energy to “whine.”

  107. As far as “actually producing something of value” goes, my pain medication allows me to work.

    Yes, this. If I’m having a bad night pain-wise, my options are to either not take anything, get no sleep, and be still in pain and a complete zombie the next day, which means no work; or take something, get to sleep, and feel kind of groggy but not in much pain in the morning, and alert and with pain slowly coming back in the afternoon, which gives me the morning to do anything that requires much movement, and several hours in the afternoon where I can focus mentally before the pain gets too bad, and I can usually use a TENS to cut down on that afternoon pain.

  108. So…instead of seeking treatment for chronic pain, and thereby productively contributing to society ourselves, it is the responsibility of those of us in pain or who are otherwise disabled to suck it up and not bother those folks who voluntarily went into professions dedicated to healing and caring for others. The value of the medical profession is limited to those folks who are not unduly burdonsome.

    Got it.

  109. Oh, fucking hell. -headdesk-

    Meanwhile, of course, booze is still fine, on account of we tried Prohibition there and it didn’t work. Good for food and good times as well as, unofficially, dulling the pain.

    But something that’s actually designed to kill intense/chronic physical pain and -works—uh uh.

    Nice.

  110. I love these interwebs.

    Pandas are awesome! I got a free panda dog! It’s like a bonus!

  111. I don’t have a pain disorder, but I do have chronic insomnia. I take Ambien nightly because of it. I’ve tried exercise. I’ve tried melatonin supplements. I know sleep hygiene incredibly well. I meditate. I’ve gone to relaxation therapy. I go to a regular psychiatrist. I’ve gone to sleep clinics.. none of them work for me.

    When I say chronic insomnia, I mean just that. I’ve had it for about ten years. I have a mixture of onset and terminal insomnia. As a result, unmedicated, I sleep for approximately two hours a night. If that. Medicated, I average six. Why?

    Ambien BARELY works for me. There are still nights when I take the maximum dose and don’t fall asleep at all. Lunesta works great for me, but guess what? My insurance doesn’t cover it and I can’t afford to pay the full price of it out of pocket. A monthly supply of Ambien is about $60 for me as it is, and that’s the drug that barely works!

    I’ve had to change pharmacies many times because after a certain period passes, I hear snide remarks about addiction. I’ve watched pharmacies call my doctor to verify I actually need it. It is humiliating.

    I guess I’m trying to say that I may not fully understand, but I have an idea, Amanda. And I hope to whatever god listens that this doesn’t go through. It’s hard enough living with what I have, I can’t imagine doing what you do.

  112. Can we just end this thread? It is no longer producing anything of value except panda pictures. As cute as they are, Productive Things Can Be Done by people here other than being abused for daring to have a disability and talk about it in socially unacceptable ways.

  113. I’m willing to bet Rush Limbaugh is stocking up on this stuff with a frenzied pace…..

  114. OK, folks. Here’s what I’m doing: I am going to remove the offending comments, and leave the cute pandas (because I said so). I will leave up the responses from you folks, because I think the arguments against the abled framework (and some garden-variety idiocy) is valuable. And I am going to close this thread.

    Honestly, I don’t think we have a chance at getting through to anyone who is still worried about “unreasonable”ness at this point, in contradiction to the pretty reasonable argument in the original post that none of them seem to have bothered reading. To these folks: there is a lot of background here, in disability activism and patient advocacy, which you may not have been exposed to, or may have been but you are still working from a place of privilege. Please consider just sitting back, listening, and chewing on what we say for awhile. And keep reading stuff from disability advocates. And give it maybe a couple years. Because it takes awhile for such a radical framework change to really soak in. But if you’re committed to justice for all people, it will be worth the time and wait.

    Or you can keep arguing from a place of privilege and authority, and leave unconsidered the way in which your power is working to worsen societal access for PWD – whether you intend it to or not. Again, you are on a feminist site, and this is a basic feminist concept.

    If you still have trouble with these concepts, after more than enough explaining – well – you aren’t welcome in my threads anymore.

    Thanks all.

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