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I think you’re confused as to the meaning of “child support”

Oh ScienceBlogs, you’re usually so great, but this post made me want to die of teh clueless. It’s about a “man’s rights” to abortion, and basically argues that since women have the right to terminate pregnancies, men should have the right to refuse to support the children they beget. The author even includes a handy poll, which asks, “What should a man’s legal obligation be when he impregnates a woman?” and offers the following as options:

1. Should be responsible for paying half of whatever the woman chooses.
2. Should only be responsible for half if both choose to have the kid.
3. Should never be responsible for half.
4. Should be allowed to force the woman to abort.

…none, of course, which represent the current law. Men are never on the hook “for paying half of whatever the woman chooses.” They typically pay whatever they choose, and sometimes are ordered by a court to contribute what the judge deems to be a fair amount. The post concludes with these two paragraphs:

Now, mind you, I think that the choice of whether to have the kid or not should always lie with the woman (it’s her body), but I think the man should be able to choose whether he wants to be a dad or not. I think that if she chooses abortion, it’s his responsibility to pay half. But I think that if she chooses to have the child, with or without him, he should have the right to say, “without me, please.”

Right now, the courts always place the welfare of the child first. Is this the right thing to do in this day and age? What do you think?

See, that’s the thing with child support: It’s for the child. The court places the welfare of the child first because the child is dependent on financial contributions from its parents and/or the state. No one is legally obligated to be a dad in terms of providing the kind of emotional support that parents should ideally provide; the state, however, does have an interest in making sure that children are fed and financially provided-for. That’s where child support comes in. The courts can’t force you to be a decent human being, but they can make you pony up a little cash to make sure that the kid you helped create has something to eat and some clothes to wear.

Child support is a separate animal from reproductive rights. Reproductive rights are fundamentally about bodily automony, and they begin and end with your own body. The right to abortion isn’t a right just because we think women should be able to opt out of parenthood; it’s a right because forcing a woman to maintain a pregnancy for nine months against her will is an impermissible infringement upon her physical being. The fact that a desire to opt out of parenthood may be a factor in some women’s decisions to have abortions doesn’t change the reality that abortion rights are based on the right to control your own body. When there’s another person involved — a child — your obligations and freedoms change.

Is it unfair that once pregnancy occurs, a man does not have the right or ability to end it? I guess, in the same way that it’s unfair that women have to carry a pregnancy for nine months, or undergo an invasive surgical procedure to end it. That sucks. It’s not “fair.” But by virtue of having to bear that burden for nearly ten months after intercourse, women also have reproductive rights that are different from men’s. Those rights extend through pregnancy.

It may not feel “fair” to be on the hook for child support when you don’t want a kid. But children still need to be cared for, and it strikes me as pretty unfair to demand that a woman undergo a surgical procedure which she may believe to be morally wrong or be stuck with the full financial responsiblity of raising a kid by herself.

And what happens if a woman doesn’t want to remain pregnant, but the man wants the child? Should he have the legal right to force or economically coerce her into giving birth?

I understand that some dudes are really put off by the idea that there’s one thing they may not have full control over. But as long as there are differences in reproductive capabilities, there are going to be differences in the rights that come along with those capabilities. And insofar as children are distinct human beings with the right to be financially cared for, the men who helped create those children should be partially responsible.

Thanks to Texas Reader, who really held her own in the comments, for the link.


94 thoughts on I think you’re confused as to the meaning of “child support”

  1. ARgh!!! I hate the arguments that compare child support to abortion!!! Men do not get pregnant! Not the same!

    A closer parallel to men not having to pay child support if they don’t want to would be women having the right to place their children for adoption without worrying about the father’s consent. Though that’s not even the same, because carrying a pregnancy for 9 months and then giving birth, and then having someone else raise your baby is a little different from just never talking to your girlfriend again after she tells you she’s pregnant. I think anti-child support people should just not make analogies to women, and just argue against it on it’s own merits (or lack thereof).

    I’m a little biased in favor of child support, because my dad, who I have a good relationship with and still see him once a week even though I’m an adult, wouldn’t have been my dad if the courts didn’t make him initially. He didn’t want to be a father, and fought against the paternity suit and didn’t want anything to do with me… until he finally met me when the court forced him to have a paternity test. I don’t know if it works out that way a lot, or even if it’s right to force someone that much because they might change their minds. It just worked out very well for me and my dad.

  2. I’m so glad you highlighted that child support payments are for the child. The poor MRAs are always going on about how child support treats men unjustly – hey, that slut who slept with them could have just had an abortion! But there’s a century-long tradition of safeguarding the child’s interest, and that history is at work here. Last I checked, most single women weren’t living high on the hog thanks to their child support payments.

    Maybe in some future communist society, the state or the community will support kids. Until then, putting the kids’ needs first is the best solution we’ve got. (Hmm. Funny thing, I haven’t seen many MRAs agitating for communism, either …)

  3. There’s this thing called “termination of parental rights” and I’m not sure but I do not think there is anything stopping a man from petitioning the court to terminate his own parental rights.

    Just sayin’.

  4. Yes, well, any man who doesn’t want to pay child support needs to think about contraception before he goes around putting his penis into someone else’s vagina. If he really, really objects to having children, then either he won’t be having sex, or he will be using a condom, bearing in mind the risk of contraceptive failure, or he will be racing out to get a vasectomy right now, straight away.

  5. Exactly, Deborah, all the while also agitating to get more research done into male oral contraceptives and other more reliable than condoms aand less permanent than vasectomy forms of male birth control.

  6. It is unfair that men sometimes have to pay for the support of children they don’t want to parent, but it’s less unfair than either a) giving the man the casting vote in determining what happens to the woman’s body, or b) depriving the child of support. And those are really the only alternatives to the conflict, at least as things stand.

    Possibly a better solution, one that unfairly burdened no one, would be improved government support for single mothers, i.e. welfare. But something tells me that the same MRAs that gripe about having to support their genetic offspring would just switch to griping about those eeeeeeevil lazy welfare queens.

  7. just to be pedantic, ScienceBlogs is some kind of group blog/link farm. Please be more specific with the name of the dude and the actual blogname. Went through a “hunh”? moment for a sec.

  8. Good point: if I were at risk for creating a child every time I had an orgasm, I’d be damned careful where and in what circumstances I chose to climax.

    Honestly, though, the entire topic bothers me. If I suddenly learned, “Fifteen/ten/five/two years ago, someone stole one of your ova and impregnated it. You have a child you’ve never known about”, I think my reaction — after the first shock — would be something like “I have a child? A boy or a girl? Where is she? Is she happy? Is she being cared for? Does she look like me? Does she have the voice that runs in my mother’s family? Dear God, she’s not being raised by Republicans, is she?”

    Not “Does this mean some bitch is going to try and get hold of my money?”

  9. It is unfair that men sometimes have to pay for the support of children they don’t want to parent, but it’s less unfair than either a) giving the man the casting vote in determining what happens to the woman’s body, or b) depriving the child of support. And those are really the only alternatives to the conflict, at least as things stand.

    Yeah, this is pretty much my stance on the issue. I have to say, I do honestly feel bad for men who were trying to avoid impregnating anyone but for whatever reason did so anyway & wind up with a child they didn’t want. It’s a shitty situation, but as you & Jill point out, there isn’t anything to be done, because the alternatives are all worse.

  10. “There’s this thing called “termination of parental rights” and I’m not sure but I do not think there is anything stopping a man from petitioning the court to terminate his own parental rights.”

    The custodial parent must consent to the non-custodial parent terminating their parental rights. Plus, in my experience, there are many men who want the privilege of being involved in their children’s lives but they do not want to pay child support. The father of my children is a prime example of this phenomenon. These men want to engage in all the fun aspects of parenthood – birthday parties, vacations, holidays, etc. – without having to engage in any of the actual responsibilities of parenthood.

  11. “The custodial parent must consent to the non-custodial parent terminating their parental rights.”

    Plus it should also be noted that paying child support is not an obligation that the non-custodial parent has to maintain unless the custodial parent actually files a petition for child support. It is entirely up to the custodial parent as to whether or not they file for child support.

  12. Zuzu had a great post about this fairly recently, discussing how paternal rights are different from maternal rights. Of course, now I can’t find it…

  13. Plus it should also be noted that paying child support is not an obligation that the non-custodial parent has to maintain unless the custodial parent actually files a petition for child support. It is entirely up to the custodial parent as to whether or not they file for child support.

    Oooooh. I hope Judge Judy isn’t reading this. She goes nuts when non-custodial parents don’t pay child support. “There’s no court order” is no excuse.

  14. It’s kind of funny that there’s even debate about this. Most non-custodial parents don’t even pay regular child support payments in full, and that’s when a court order for child support exists. And now guys are complaining that they have to pay child support at all? It’s obviously not that hard to be delinquent in payments. Even if they paid support in full, it’s still significantly less than what they’d be paying if both parents lived with the child.

  15. Cactus Wren: now imagine you got a letter which also said “oh, and here’s a bill for tens of thousands of dollars which you can’t afford, and if you don’t pay up, we’re taking away your driving license and garnishing your wages until you do – oh, and the kid might not even be yours, but you have no legal right to find out”. Seriously, this does happen, and there are real reasons why men worry about child support. In general:
    – there is no requirement that the man being charged for child support be able to afford to pay it. (Saner states do require this, though arrears are still set in stone.) In some states, I think charging an impoverished man more than his entire income is A-OK.
    – the requirements for notification of paternity and child support claims are… lax to say the least. Plus, you can generally only challenge paternity within a narrow time period after the notification is sent, whether or not you received it. Even if you can prove you’re not the father at a later date, I believe you’re still liable for any child support payments up until this happens – there’s no way of discharging them. If you move to a different state at the wrong time, you can easily end up hugely screwed.
    – the penalties are nasty. Imprisonment, loss of driving license, income garnished (with little regard for living expenses like rent, which is a big deal for the poor).
    – there is, in general, no real penalty for the mother lying about paternity, despite it being so hard to challenge. (Oh, and even if she did lie, and willingly admits to it, you’re *still* liable for any arrears. I’m not making this up – it has happened.)
    – probably other stuff too.

    Basically, it’s a mess – and increasingly, it’s a mess which is mostly harmful to men. The reasons for this are… interesting, involving sexist social expectations, class issues (“deadbeat dads” are widely seen as a lower-class phenomenon, and of course the people who pass these laws don’t have to worry about the nastier consequences since they’re wealthy enough to avoid them), and – yes – feminist influence (though that’s probably not the major factor).

    Of course, the MRA proposals probably don’t even deserve the effort to read and comment on them, but the status quo is still broken.

  16. I have a bit of an issue with men being drawn as irresponsible scumbags or something.

    That blog post is kind of… a fail, really. But there is this meme going on that women are generally more responsible in their reproductive choices while men just try anything to wiggle out of parental responsibility.

    In my experience, that’s definitely not always the case.

    I guess my objection is not so much about tearing apart the post on ScienceBlog, but more about a gender bisaed meme that seems to be going on here.

    Personally, I hate kids, I had my tubes tied, and I’m so damn glad it’s in my hands to pull the emergency brake in the unlikely event that should fail.

    Honestly, I would say, “ew, you sick bastard, go the hell away!”

    A (male) good friend of mine had something along these lines happen by the way. Short version: he got a vasectomy, 15 years later he got his girlfriend pregnant anyways, and she ad a miscarriage. Instead of telling him any of that, she kept having unprotected sex with him,a n the next time she got pregnant, she got all the vitamins and supplements and check-ups to make sure she could have this kid. He found out after it was too late for a legal abortion.
    He has no interest in the kid whatsoever, not for birthday parties and not for support checks, but he’s stuck paying for a long, long time. And as a guy, how much more responsible can you really get than a damn vasectomy?

    Of course this is an extreme example and purely anectdotal, but personally I think so is the deadbeat accidental sperm donor who just can’t be arsed to take an interest.

  17. Faith – that depends on where you live. Here in MN, if the kids are getting public benefits, the county will start a child support action to get compensation from the non-custodial parent. And that’s often when dad will try to get custody.

  18. I’d love it if “child support” was a community effort that ensured all kids got what they needed to be healthy and well-taken care of. The current system penalizes kids for having poor parents and often pits even well-meaning parents against each other.

  19. ““There’s no court order” is no excuse.”

    As a single mother, I am aware of just how difficult this situation actually is. And, personally, I have little to no desire to draw child support from the father of my children, despite the fact that my children and I have lived well below the poverty line for nearly a decade. Accepting his money means to some degree or another dealing with him. I’d rather live in poverty than deal with that man, or have him anywhere near my children.

    Besides that, if we could create a society in which single mothers could actually support their children without child support, I really wouldn’t care less if men paid child support, to be perfectly frank. However, most of the people reading this knows that simply isn’t currently the case.

    It isn’t as cut and dry as some people make it out to be.

  20. “Faith – that depends on where you live. Here in MN, if the kids are getting public benefits, the county will start a child support action to get compensation from the non-custodial parent. And that’s often when dad will try to get custody.”

    Harlemjd,

    Sorry, you’re correct. I actually think that may be the case in most states.

  21. I always love (for values that equal “bang my head against the wall”) how much time and hang-wringing we spend worrying about the ways in which the fact that women do 100% of the work of gestation and childbearing (not to mention usually a majority of child-rearing) is unfair to men.

  22. “I have a bit of an issue with men being drawn as irresponsible scumbags or something.”

    …if the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t keep trying to shove your foot in it. Most dudes aren’t irresponsible scumbags. Most dudes who don’t want kids make that clear up-front, don’t have vaginal intercourse with women who aren’t on board with the Operation No-babies, and use condoms. This particular discussion is about dudes whose primary concern, should they happen into unwanted fatherhood, appears to be keeping that lying bitch from getting a dime of their money. The argument against having to pay child support in run-of-the-mill cases–which seems to boil down to “I shouldn’t have to keep paying for dog food if I take my dog to the pound.”–tends to erase the idea of children as human beings. Options 3 and 4 on that poll should kind of clue a person in as to where this is directed.

  23. you wrote:

    “some dudes are really put off by the idea that there’s one thing they may not have full control over”

    first, “dudes?” we’re not in high school anymore. these are grown-up issues.

    your ignorance on the subject of absent fathers, which runs much deeper than child support, is clear in the rest of that short phrase.

    family law reform, including child support collection is necessary, and it has absolutely nothing to do with gender – except that the lack of due process happens to men more often than women because they are most likely to be forced to become the ‘noncustodial’ parent.

    learn the facts. start helping to solve these problems instead of playing ‘he said, she said’ and pretending like fathers are less human than mothers.”

    feminists are hypocrites when it comes to equal parenting. it’s become all about ‘give me, give me, give me…’ and I don’t just mean the cash. don’t bother trying to argue that point. it’s on video tape.

  24. These instances only cover the options surrounding the birth of a child. I would hazard a guess that most single-mothers with children had partners when the child was born.
    That poses the question, “Does a person have the right to walk away from their family without supporting their children?” That answer is cleaner and simpler, and I think it can be applied to similar situations involving newly-pregnant families.

  25. “Yes, well, any man who doesn’t want to pay child support needs to think about contraception before he goes around putting his penis into someone else’s vagina.”
    Wow. Never thought I’d have heard THAT argument on a feminist website.

  26. Blah.

    I think on a larger scale, the much bigger problem is that these decisions don’t get discussed.

    Whenever I had sex with a guy more than once (Condoms are a must for first times and short affairs anyways) I made it clear that I did not, under any circumstances, want children,and I made sure to find out where they stand on birth control, abortion etc.
    If I was a guy, I guess the set of questions would be a different one, but the basic premises (condoms for casual sex, unprotected sex only after discussing solutions for accidental pregnmancy and all around STD tests) would remain the same.

    Having that conversation should really be the norm, but as long as sex is something seedy that happens in the dark and between the sheets, birth control is a purely female concern and abortion is grounds for lynching, that’s not very likely to happen.

    As it is, awkward and badly informed men knock up awkward and badly informed women who then have to somehow struggle through it and draw on the only resources available to them.

  27. One of the things I find dismaying about that article is when he states that sperm donors are being held accountable for child support, and then I read the article he was citing. In that case, the “sperm donor” had his name on the birth certificate as father, went to birthday parties, signed cards with “Dad” and “Daddy”, etc. That’s not a typical case of sperm donation, and nobody really seemed to notice that in the “OMFGBBQ Sperm donors shouldn’t be held accountable” comments.

    It’s also pretty disgusting how many people think that just because a man doesn’t want a baby, a woman should either have to suck it up and raise it all by herself, both emotionally and financially, or terminate the pregnancy. It takes two to tango. If you don’t know that there’s a risk involved in fucking, even if you’re using birth control, then you shouldn’t be fucking. There’s always a risk. Even “perfect” use of birth control can make babies. Geezus. THIS is why I want real sex education in schools, not that abstinence bullshit, because it seems to be a consensus there that birth control using adults only get pregnant when the woman wants a baby and sabotages the birth control.

  28. “As it is, awkward and badly informed men knock up awkward and badly informed women who then have to somehow struggle through it and draw on the only resources available to them.”

    Generalizing just a bit there, don’t ya’ think? I can’t recall being either “awkward” or “badly informed” when I got “knocked up”.

  29. “Whenever I had sex with a guy more than once (Condoms are a must for first times and short affairs anyways) I made it clear that I did not, under any circumstances, want children,and I made sure to find out where they stand on birth control, abortion etc.
    If I was a guy, I guess the set of questions would be a different one, but the basic premises (condoms for casual sex, unprotected sex only after discussing solutions for accidental pregnmancy and all around STD tests) would remain the same.”

    The basic problem with the sex act between men and women is that they more often than not operate on hope and faith that a pregnancy won’t happen, if they’re concerned about it at all. The truth is: sexual intercourse between a man and a woman leads to conception. How many times has the Pill failed, or the condom broke? Yes, sex is a basic human act, but, perhaps more men and women need to keep their legs closed.

  30. “Whenever I had sex with a guy more than once (Condoms are a must for first times and short affairs anyways) I made it clear that I did not, under any circumstances, want children,and I made sure to find out where they stand on birth control, abortion etc.
    If I was a guy, I guess the set of questions would be a different one, but the basic premises (condoms for casual sex, unprotected sex only after discussing solutions for accidental pregnmancy and all around STD tests) would remain the same.”

    The basic problem with the sex act between men and women is that they more often than not operate on hope and faith that a pregnancy won’t happen, if they’re concerned about it at all. The truth is: sexual intercourse between a man and a woman leads to conception. How many times has the Pill failed, or the condom broke? Yes, sex is a basic human act, but, perhaps more men and women need to keep their legs closed instead of getting caught up “in the moment.” Sigh.

  31. “feminists are hypocrites when it comes to equal parenting. it’s become all about ‘give me, give me, give me…’ and I don’t just mean the cash. don’t bother trying to argue that point. it’s on video tape.”

    Is it too late for this to be in an FNTT post?

  32. Women are able to make two types of choices about bearing/raising a child: the decision to carry a pregnancy to term (or not), and the decision to parent (or not). Obviously, the father of the child should not have legal rights with regard to the first question, as this is primarily an issue of bodily autonomy and the right to decide what can gestate in one’s own uterus. However, I do think that more consideration should be given to the father’s right to make the decision to parent.

    I don’t buy the “well you were responsible for half the DNA, so you should have thought of this before you got someone pregnant” meme. If we are going to throw this logic at men, by default we should also legally bar women from giving up their children for adoption. When a woman decides to carry a pregnancy to term but does not believe that she is in a position, financially or emotionally, to raise a child, she has the option to give that child up for adoption. Given that this is NOT solely an issue of bodily autonomy, men should have a comparable option to choose not to parent.

    This is not to say that the issue of adequate material support for children isn’t important. But it needs a different solution. I don’t pretend to know what that is – state-provided child support for all children of single parents, or for children of parents who terminate parental rights, or simply for all children? I think we are too wedded to the idea that a genetic relationship necessitates financial obligation. The system would be much simpler if we shifted the burden from specific parent to specific child support payments, and instead provided general support from a taxpayer-financed system.

    Reproductive choice means accepting that there are many legitimate choices regarding pregnancy and parenting; I don’t think it is unreasonable to consider how the choice not to parent can be made legal for men without negative consequences for their former partners and children.

  33. Seriously, I want to thank you for posting this today. Yesterday I got into a debate about abortion that left me so mad. The person I was arguing with made the same arguments- its unfair to the man because he has to pay child support if the woman chooses to have the baby, but he isn’t allowed to have a say about whether or not the woman has an abortion.
    As usual, I couldn’t articulate my argument properly, and was left shaking mad. I am going to bookmark this, so I’m never left speechless again.

  34. I hate the fact that “men’s rights” to not pay child support because they can’t themselves chose abortion is the only time we really talk about men’s rights with respect to abortion and birth control. It obscures the fact that in the VAST majority of cases, men’s rights and women’s rights actually align perfectly when it comes to reproductive choice. No, a man cannot himself make the choice for abortion. But other than that reproductive rights are very important to men too. No man wants to be forced to have a child because of lack of birth control or access to abortion any more than a woman does. No man wants to get an STD because of poor planning and education any more than any women does. I really with that this huge commonality of interest between men and women were more emphasized in the pro-choice discourse.

  35. The only interesting thing about that article is that it demonstrates a certain matter-of-fact acceptance of a woman’s right to an abortion. That demonstration is probably accidental, but there it is.

  36. Well perhaps if the child support system were more adept at setting payment amounts that were reasonable there wouldn’t be as much problem paying them or as much complaining. And it would also help if modifications weren’t so difficult to obtain from the court because it is definitely not fair to be expected to pay an amount that’s based on a salary he is not longer making.

    From 35:
    The only interesting thing about that article is that it demonstrates a certain matter-of-fact acceptance of a woman’s right to an abortion. That demonstration is probably accidental, but there it is.
    Actually it might not be. There are a lot of MRA’s out there that do not seek to limit women’s choices and options but seek to expand men’s choices and options.

    From 11:
    These men want to engage in all the fun aspects of parenthood – birthday parties, vacations, holidays, etc. – without having to engage in any of the actual responsibilities of parenthood.
    While there are men out there like that for the many men out there that actually want to take a part in their children’s lives (thick&thin, sickness&health, good&bad) would not having some portion of custody offset some portion of the child support obligation?

  37. I recently watched my brother in law engage in a long rant about how Teh Evil Women are always robbing men through child support, and it’s just WRONG! and I looked at his wife and thought “WHY did you have children with this man? On purpose, even?”

    I don’t agree with the whole “Well, if they didn’t want a baby, they shouldn’t have put their penis (fill in the blank)” argument because that’s the same argument the fundies use against THOSE WHORES (read: all women) who want safe, legal abortions.

    I DO agree that men who don’t want children and don’t take any precautions (they’re FREE at planned parenthood, okay?) are total idiots who should be ridiculed.

    I don’t like the idea that it is a woman or a court’s responsibility to chase a man down and request money or force him to pay child support. As long as a man knows he has a child, it is HIS responsiblility to do his part to make sure that child is taken care of, and nobody else’s.

    My husband has a child from a previous relationship. They’ve never been to court. He has paid child support every month since he found out the mother of his child was pregnant. He pays a higher amount than the courts would demand. There have been times (two or three over the course of a decade) where he has had to say “Hey, unemployment hasn’t come yet/bills are due, can I send her money next week or send a partial payment until next month?” and she’s been willing to work with him. Why? Because his past behavior has been honorable, and she knows he takes his daughter’s needs seriously.

    Men always talk about being screwed by the courts. Well, try stepping the fuck up, instead. Court is not a forgone conclusion.

  38. I agree that men should be forced to pay child support if the woman wants to keep/raise the child. However, the logic of “whatever is best for the child” does have limits and the courts far too often go way overboard in this area against personal liberty.

    A good case example if sperm banks. When a man donates sperm to a bank, he should be absolutely under ZERO obligation to provide financial support to the child. Its unbelievable that in this day and age, courts can (and have) made ridiculous rulings that sperm bank donors are de facto “responsible parents” and therefore are on the hook for child support, simply because its in the “best interest of the child.” Hell I’ve even seen a few court cases rule that a non-biological father (i.e. ex-boyfriend, ex-husband) is responsible for child support simply because its the “best interest” of the child. Such rulings go way overboard, and are patently absurd.

  39. You know, I just don’t get the strange “because I don’t want a baby, I don’t have to pay for one” attitude that some guys have. Sex makes babies. If you don’t want to make a baby use your hand. If you decide to have sex, you’ve put your money down on the roulette table. Welcome to real life.

    I do however think that there should be testing when requested to make sure it’s the guy’s child. The right person should be responsible for that child, and in the long run it’s better I think for the child to know who their real parent is.

  40. “I don’t buy the “well you were responsible for half the DNA, so you should have thought of this before you got someone pregnant” meme. If we are going to throw this logic at men, by default we should also legally bar women from giving up their children for adoption. When a woman decides to carry a pregnancy to term but does not believe that she is in a position, financially or emotionally, to raise a child, she has the option to give that child up for adoption. Given that this is NOT solely an issue of bodily autonomy, men should have a comparable option to choose not to parent.”

    Men MAY and DO put children up for adoption. What’s more, women cannot legally put a child up for adoption with the consent of the father. And if it happens she gets in trouble. Same for the reverse. I don’t get why MRA types always pretend that isn’t true.

    Also, the argument being made is NOT SIMPLY “keep your pants on or don’t complain”. At least if you’re a liberal but ESPECIALLY if you’re a feminist (I mean a real one, not a Christina Hoff Sommers one who just wants rebellious credibility). Men CAN use condoms, men CAN get vasectomies, man CAN avoid vaginal intercourse with women who do not share their plans, men CAN avoid vagina intercourse altogether. But what MRA-types ignore is that WOMEN get pregnant! Men DO NOT. Shooting sperm is not the end of it and it doesn’t stop then start back up again when she begins to show. Its a process that effects a woman physically, mentally, financially, and emotionally — and can be fatal. MRA’s ignore this because it isn’t something they have to deal with – they make WOMEN having to be the ones who get pregnant about THEM! This is simply about male privilege and that is it.

  41. Yeah, to whoever said most men are responsible…. Not quite. Condom usage in developed countries is about 20 % (section 2). For those of you who keep track of these things, the sarcastic title should bring up some memories: “Why don’t women just use contraception?” (It sounds exactly like, “Why doesn’t she just leave?!” which is demanded of battered women.

    How many men initially want the baby, then change their minds, leaving the woman happen? How many men are lying? Let’s see: if they lie, they get to call the woman a bitch and get sympathy. Eight out of ten teenage fathers abandon the girl. How many women have their birth control sabotaged by these guys?

    The stereotype of guys who don’t use BC is less a stereotype than a reality. If they don’t like it, change it, but life sucks, and shit happens. Grow up and think about somebody else for a cha—–Oh, yeah, wait, that’s kind of the problem here, isn’t it?

    And to whoever snipped that about PIV intercourse, could you think it through? Why are guys so fixated on that, when there’s other forms of sex? (Which was the point, by the way.) He could masturbate. He could actually talk to his partner. He could use birth control. He find a woman who shares his beliefs about being childfree. He could get snipped. He could have gay sex. He could find women who are only interested in oral or anal sex.

    It almost seems like these guys think leaving babies all over is proof of their masculinity, complete with leaving women holding the bag. Man wins! He may be an utter shit stain, but his sperm work.

  42. If this was in any way a serious problem for men, the male pill would already have been brought to market. The basic technology already exists, but the drug companies reckon there wouldn’t be any demand for it, so it’s not worth their while rolling it out.

    I bet the guys whining about child support would have be the first to whine about how it’s not fair to expect them to take a pill that might risk their health, and refuse to take it. But anyway, the lack of demand for a male pill demonstrates with crystal clarity which sex is burdened more heavily by the risk of pregnancy. The answer is staggeringly obvious. Perhaps Mr Whinypants would like to shut up about what’s “not fair.”

  43. This is exactly what some guys do to avoid housework, too: they know that their wives/SOs will be judged harshly, so she has to do if they get all passive aggressive and just ‘forget’ or ‘don’t know how to do it’ or just refuse to do it. Same here. If he refuses to use BC, she’s got to. And before people whine that women can always refuse to have sex with these guys—-really? Really? There’s lots of women out there who for various reasons can’t enforce their rights with the men in their lives.

  44. 4: “Yes, well, any man who doesn’t want to pay child support needs to think about contraception before he goes around putting his penis into someone else’s vagina.”

    26. Wow. Never thought I’d have heard THAT argument on a feminist website.

    It seems to me that this isn’t so much feminist/anti-feminist as just common sense.

    If I drive on the freeway, I consider the possibility that I may get into a car crash. I take reasonable steps to avoid getting hurt (seat belts, air bags, caffeine, if necessary, and paying close attention to what’s going on around me.) And if a road is a known death-trap, perhaps even avoiding that route.

    I also recognize that, no matter how good my precautions, I might get killed or crippled. Even on a simple trip to the movies. If I’m not willing to take that risk, maybe I shouldn’t be driving.

    In the same way, if I have sex with a woman, there’s a chance that a child may be born 9 months later. If I don’t plan on having a child, it seems like simple common sense for me to do what I can to reduce the risk: like using birth control and making sure my partner is of the same opinion (and is mature enought to take responsibility for her actions!) But no matter what we do, unless one or the other decides to get sterilized, there’s always a chance that she will get pregnant, and a chance that (whatever she may have said before) she will choose to have the child. If this risk is unacceptable to you (male), then you’d do better not to have sex with her in the first place.[*]

    It also seems to me that, even if you hate kids (which I don’t), the consequences of an unintended pregnancy aren’t anywhere near as bad as a serious car wreck. Child support doesn’t put you in a wheelchair — or a grave.

    And refraining from sex with (fertile) women is nowhere near as disruptive to one’s daily life as not travelling by car anywhere.

    [*] Or get a vasectomy. Funny, these discussions don’t seem to end up with a ringing endorsement of “vasectomies — the ultimate child support preventer!”

  45. can i just say that women cannot “LIE” about paternity? Women do not possess an internal DNA-processing machine to know whose sperm fertilized an egg. so please drop that bullshit. A court can’t punish a woman for guessing who the father is, and the law is to PRESUME that the husband is the father. So, it’s not just women who are making these assumptions.

  46. I think the problem with discussing these issues is that every situation does not fit neatly into a one size fits all solution. I think there are a few situations where men are getting screwed over. For example…a woman and a man are in non-committed sexual relationship. Woman and man agree that neither want children, woman says she on birth control and she is not against abortion if it came down to it. Then woman gets pregnant, keeps the baby, and goes for child support. That man is getting hoodwinked.

    My first child I had with a man I was not in a committed relationship with. I chose to keep my son after much personal debate. My sons father is very involved with his life in all ways. But I NEVER will ask him for child support. Why? Because we did not sit down and agree to have a child together.

    On the other hand, Im pregnant with my second child, whos father is my husband. We DID decide to have a child together. We made a commitment to get married and have a family together. If he decided to leave me for whatever reason, I would expect him to continue partially financially supporting this child, b/c he made the commitment to having her.

  47. I think this is pretty simple. If a man wants to relinquish his right as parent then he should not have to pay child support. If he doesnt pay, his parental rights are cut off. It gives men an option, they should have an option.

  48. If a man wants to relinquish his right as parent then he should not have to pay child support.

    Only if he walks through a gauntlet of people screaming at him that he’s a deadbeat dad and saying “Don’t leave me, daddy!” to get a medical procedure that involves having sperm scraped out of his urethra.

  49. “can i just say that women cannot “LIE” about paternity? Women do not possess an internal DNA-processing machine to know whose sperm fertilized an egg. so please drop that bullshit.”

    Yes they can. They can state that someone was the father when they know he couldn’t possibly be. or when they know it’s far more likely that someone else was. (For example, if the women was having protected sex with one man and unprotected sex with another, she could claim that the first man was definitely the father and the condom must’ve failed, even when she knows it was more likely to be the second.) They can claim that only one man could possibly be the father when they know it’s not true. All this does happen.

  50. You know, I just don’t get the strange “because I don’t want a baby, I don’t have to pay for one” attitude that some guys have. Sex makes babies. If you don’t want to make a baby use your hand. If you decide to have sex, you’ve put your money down on the roulette table. Welcome to real life.

    I don’t know. We spend an awful lot of time and energy explaining why that exact type of logic doesn’t work in other situations, so it makes me really uncomfortable to see it used here. I’m a full supporter of child support, because I don’t really see a better solution in our country with the way things are. Children have needs, and those needs must be met as much as possible. Until we come up with a better social safety net to provide for children, the reality is that the people responsible for creating the child have to suck up the financial responsibilities for it. If the people responsible aren’t a couple anymore, that means child support.

    But to start arguing that the mere act of having sex somehow implies consent to child support doesn’t really seem that different from someone else trying to argue that having sex implies consent to give birth. We might not have a better alternative to child support right now, but that doesn’t mean that we couldn’t eventually have a better social system in place to provide for the needs of children.

    I think this is pretty simple. If a man wants to relinquish his right as parent then he should not have to pay child support. If he doesnt pay, his parental rights are cut off. It gives men an option, they should have an option.

    I don’t think that works, right now. Whether a man wants to have parental rights or not is something completely different from whether the child needs financial support for hir needs. In many cases, the non-custodial parent doesn’t want parental rights, and, in fact, sometimes wants nothing what-so-ever to do with the child. Further, in cases where a non-custodial parent does want to be a part of the child’s life, but for some reason resists child support, I’m not completely convinced that it’s in the best interest of the child to cut off that connection. If the non-custodial parent is a huge asshole, it might be, but I think you’d have to start looking at those on a case to case basis. Even if most cases are deadbeats, I can see the possibility for legit concerns about the use of money. And while most cases of child support are men paying women, there are cases where men are the custodial parent, and seeking payments from women who are non-custodial.

  51. “But to start arguing that the mere act of having sex somehow implies consent to child support doesn’t really seem that different from someone else trying to argue that having sex implies consent to give birth”

    The problem here (from my perspective) is that women are on average not financially empowered enough to raise children without the financial support of a man. In theory, I agree with the statement that you are making. But the only conceivable way to make it reasonable for men to opt out of child support is to first create a society in which women can support children on our own. And, from my experience, the men who complain the loudest about not wanting to pay child support are also the ones complaining the loudest about empowering women. Most MRAS and the like aren’t exactly feminists.

  52. When a woman decides to carry a pregnancy to term but does not believe that she is in a position, financially or emotionally, to raise a child, she has the option to give that child up for adoption.

    Actually both the bio mom and the bio dad need to consent to an adoption. While technically an adoption will occur if the bio father is “unknown” many adoption are wary of using this since the bio father can later contest the adoption and it will be invalidated. So there is an unacknowledged parity here. If a woman wants to give the child up for adoption and the father wants to keep the child, he becomes the custodial parent and she is required to pay child support.

  53. The problem here (from my perspective) is that women are on average not financially empowered enough to raise children without the financial support of a man. In theory, I agree with the statement that you are making. But the only conceivable way to make it reasonable for men to opt out of child support is to first create a society in which women can support children on our own. And, from my experience, the men who complain the loudest about not wanting to pay child support are also the ones complaining the loudest about empowering women. Most MRAS and the like aren’t exactly feminists.

    Most people, in general, are not financially empowered enough to raise a child on one income, regardless of sex (and regardless of the sex of the second earner–two women, for example, may be able to bear the financial burden as well as a man and a woman).

    And, I totally agree that, as things stand, it’s not feasible to have any kind of opt-out situation. I don’t think we have to fall back on the idea that having sex implies consent, though. The only thing that consenting to sex should imply consent for is, well, having sex. I think we can recognize that child support is an imperfect solution to a problem that exists, at least in part, because of the economic situation of our country without using language that makes it sound like a punishment. Child support isn’t punishment for having sex–it’s our social responsibility as the people who helped create a child that was brought into this world whether we wanted it or not.

    And if people (admittedly mostly men, I think) are really upset about the financial burden of it, one of the things that they can do is try to help fix the financial inequities, and try to help come up with a better way of providing for the financial needs of children. And if they’re not willing to do those things? Well, then they’re stuck with a situation that sucks for them, I guess. Too bad, so sad.

  54. But to start arguing that the mere act of having sex somehow implies consent to child support doesn’t really seem that different from someone else trying to argue that having sex implies consent to give birth

    But that really diminishes the “consent” concept — giving consent to having something happen to your body is hugely different than giving consent to having something happen to your checking account.

    As for the argument about women being about to choose not to parent by putting a child up for adoption — this is not the same. When a child is put up for adoption, the parents say that they can’t/won’t care for the child, and so they find someone else who will do it. The analogous situation would be a father who doesn’t want to parent or pay child support and so he finds someone else who will agree to parent the child and provide for it financially.

  55. Roy, you’re being stupid. Having sex causes pregnancy. Shit happens no matter what you do. What you want is for men to be totally free from worry and responsibility, while dumping it all on women and society.

    Also, men need to shut the fuck up and use condoms. End of subject. If they don’t and get a woman pregnant, the STFU extends to every guy whining that OMG it’s so unfair.

    And men lie. They lie after the fact. People believe them. We’ve set up society to believe lying men. Lying words. Lying is profitable for men. Unfortunately there’s DNA, which means now they have to get desperate and vicious.

  56. Well, actually the bio dad does not need to consent to an adoption in all states. The bio dad is required to be given notice of the intent to put the child up for adoption. If the bio dad does not challenge this consent then the court will terminate his rights. He has the right to challenge the adoption and have a hearing held to determine whether the adoption should be allowed or not. Under these proceeding the bio dad may be given custody of the child if he can prove that he is the biological father and that he can care for the child himself.
    ( http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/130575/a_biological_fathers_rights_in_an_adoption.html?cat=17 )
    In fact, many states require the man to pre-emptively register with a putative father’s register and he must do that within a state specific deadline (ie. 30 days after birth) before the adoption petition is filled – now that’s a really half-assed solution to a difficult problem. Especially since these registers are state specific and if the mother takes the child and move to another state and put it up for adoption there the father may very well be without any rights even though he registered in the register in the state where they originally came from.
    ( http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/19/national/19fathers.html?_r=1 )

    Absent of dispute is not exactly the same as consent. Just like opt in isn’t like opt out. (Most countries with an opt out approach to organ donorship has a >99% donor rate while most countries with an opt in approach has a donor rate <20%).

    This is in my opinion a loophole maybe not big enough for a trailer, but at least a lorry. At the top of my head I also wonder how hard do they try to give the notice if the bio father for instance have moved?

    Also, the parity is not a real parity as it is not enough that the father want the child, but he also needs to prove that he can support the child – naturally no such thing is needed from the mother. If there were a parity a biological mother who can’t herself support the child would have to put it up for adoption. And I think most would agree that that would be wrong.
    But how does that reflect on ones opinion on fatherhood if one think that restriction is a-ok for fathers who wants to dispute an adoption and keep the child themselves, but who can’t prove their ability to support the child by themselves?
    I haven’t researched this, but I would think (at least hope) that single fathers have the rights and access to the same public welfare that single mothers have. And thus a child wouldn’t be worse off materially with a single dad than with a single mom.

  57. How many men initially want the baby, then change their minds, leaving the woman happen?

    My ex talked me into having a child. When my son was four, his father and I divorced. They saw one another with some frequency, and I was flexible about visitation. He never paid support. The state would only assist if I quit my job and went on state aid. In the end, it was easier to bust my arse 60-70 hours a week and support him alone than it was to keep dragging him back through court. It was clear he just wasnt going to pay no matter what the court did.
    I’m now putting him through college entirely paid for out of my pocket.

    Further, in cases where a non-custodial parent does want to be a part of the child’s life, but for some reason resists child support, I’m not completely convinced that it’s in the best interest of the child to cut off that connection.

    As the court explained to me, the two issues were separate. My son had a right to forge and maintain his own relationship with his father, even if he was an abusive deadbeat (his son was emotionally abused, not physically). So I didnt interefere with visitation, but this stuck in my craw: If I refused to pay to feed, clothe, house my child and provide him with proper medical care, the Child Service people would have taken him away from me for being a negligent parent. Why isnt a non-custodial parent who is essentially refusing to do the same thing by not supporting their child not also guilty of negligence? Why *isnt” hir right to hir child not in jeopardy, as the custodial parents surely would be if they did not support the child.

    As for the poster who felt there was a “legitimate concern” about how child support money gets spent, even in the rare cases where the full amount due is consistently paid, trust me…it doesnt cover half the cost of raising the child. Being the custodial generally means paying the medical insurance at the family rate rather than the single rate, needing a larger home than one would alone, higher water bills, laundry and food and toiletries, electricity, heat, clothing…and today by the time they are in school, providing them with a computer and high speed access. Oh, and lets not forget dental visits, day care, after school care, and being responsible for the daily upkeep of a home made much messier by the presence of a child. And thats for a start

  58. Tamen,

    Private adoptions are typically conducted around a consent model. Your typical adoption agency isn’t going to court to litigate the fathers parental rights. These more complex disputes usually arise around step-parent adoptions. In four years doing children’s rights law I’ve only seen one where the father didn’t give positive consent with an adoption at birth. Lots of disputes with step parent adoptions though.

  59. Roy, I’m kind of disappointed in your logic. I think it really misses out on some fundamentally important differences in how the process of child-making works for the egg-donating partner and the sperm-donating partner. In other words, generally speaking? The woman perspective. You can’t equate wallets and bodies, and like Ruchama says, you are diminishing the concept of consent. But then I remembered, oh yeah, I used to pretty much think the same thing as you, and maybe for similar reasons. After all I also don’t have to worry about having to bear a child or get an abortion; it took me a long time to get some of this through my head.

    Here’s the thing — we can and do teach kids that pregnancy is a risk arising from some kinds of sex. I don’t think you can have a real, complete model of “consent” as in “informed consent” without teaching people that there are risks and consequences involved. Terminating a pregnancy is not “avoiding the consequences” — that is a pro-life frame that should never be accepted. It’s another consequence, it’s an extremely difficult and even risky thing. So is pregnancy — even more risky, in fact. It’s not like “face the consequences or avoid them,” it’s choose between two bad consequences and decide which one is the lesser bad. The risks and consequences of sex for women, on top of STDs and everything else, can involve either bearing a child, or having to go through an abortion. And the reason we support that choice has to do with bodily autonomy, the fact that it so often is a VERY difficult choice that nobody else should be making about a woman’s body, and because (for me at least) we do not regard an embryo or fetus as a fully human life worth valuing, especially given they die all the time in countless numbers. Thus, a choice.

    There aren’t any real consequences like that for men. So there isn’t really any choice involving your body, except at the point that the reproductive component of your body leaves you and becomes integrated in someone else’s body. You’ve made your choice at that point. And of course, if there was no consent to sex, then I think we’re talking about an entirely different story.

    Both people having sex need to understand that another human being is a potential outcome of sex — even sex with contraception, since there are no sure things. And everyone needs to understand that human beings that come from sex, once born, are a mutual responsibility, financially or otherwise. The reproductive justice distinction is that fetuses and embryos are not full human beings yet; nobody has responsibility for them yet, because they are not independent of someone else’s body. Only that person can make decisions about that body.

    Bodily autonomy trumps “you shouldn’t have to consent to every outcome of your actions.”

  60. Kristen J: I’m talking about putative fathers here. Isn’t it correct that if you haven’t registered in the putative father register there is no need to obtain consent from you? Or even if you register and the women has another man sign up to be the presumed father they probably won’t even search the putative father register. Do you think the putative father register is a good solution to the problem of women putting down “unknown” as father at birth? With less than 100 men registering per year in most states.

  61. Laura said “If we are going to throw this logic at men, by default we should also legally bar women from giving up their children for adoption. When a woman decides to carry a pregnancy to term but does not believe that she is in a position, financially or emotionally, to raise a child, she has the option to give that child up for adoption.”

    But a woman CAN give the child up for adoption. However if she does, and the father asserts his right to look after the baby, it will go to live with him and she is liable for child support to him, as in reverse. The only way to not be liable at all is if BOTH parents agree on adoption, in which case the baby is probably better off out of it (particularly as there are nice stable infertile couples queuing around the block for healthy newborn babies).

  62. 26. Jane expresses surprise to hear the ‘if they don’t want the consequences they shouldn’t have sex’ argument on a feminist website.

    I assume you mean, as another poster points out, that this is the same argument that misogynists use to say that if women don’t want to have babies they shouldn’t have sex, the sluts.

    However practicality matters. The reason most of the educated young women I know indulge their desire for premarital sex is that they aren’t put off by lack of good access to prophylaxis, birth control, and safe abortion, plus being a single mother is no longer total social and professional catastrophe. The fact is if I hadn’t had those options I’d have saved myself for my husband. Now not everyone would hence why banning them doesn’t help (plus it’d be fascist), and people make mistakes or get raped, but the fact is that the reality we face can and should alter the way we behave. For example it is particularly common in teens who take abstinence pledges to have anal/oral sex; their reality is they refuse to use or don’t know about condoms so they alter their behaviour because their risk of pregnancy is otherwise unacceptably high. My generation is generally a lot more conservative and less promiscuous than our parents because they didn’t know about the risk of AIDS and we do. You would not call me anti-feminist for telling a fellow woman, “If you don’t want AIDS, don’t have unprotected anal sex with a needle-sharing junkie.” You’d just say I was being realistic.

    Currently men do not have the option to induce a miscarriage in a partner carrying a baby they do not want just by looking at her, nor is there a magical pill they can give her to make her want an abortion. If either capability were to come along they would be able to shag with greater impunity and the ‘don’t stick your dick in someone if you mind paying child support’ argument would carry less weight. Until then, they ought to recognise the reality rather than blaming women for the fact that it’s not fair. No it’s not, and it’s not anyone’s fault, it’s just the way it is.

  63. Lizzie (and others) said: “But a woman CAN give the child up for adoption. However if she does, and the father asserts his right to look after the baby, it will go to live with him and she is liable for child support to him, as in reverse. The only way to not be liable at all is if BOTH parents agree on adoption, in which case the baby is probably better off out of it (particularly as there are nice stable infertile couples queuing around the block for healthy newborn babies).”

    Thanks for clarifying some of the legal issues regarding fathers and adoption; I knew that there was a an element of paternal notification (and probably should have googled more before posting) but wasn’t clear on the specifics.

    Honestly, this law does not strike me as fair for men or women. I know that, as a woman, my education about my reproductive rights has taught me that, if I become pregnant, I can choose to terminate the pregnancy, or to carry to term and either parent or have my child adopted. I consider myself fairly well-informed about reproductive choice, but wasn’t aware that if I were to choose to carry a pregnancy to term and choose adoption that the father would have the right to both prevent the adoption and compel me to pay child support.

    I would assume that many people, male or female, would feel cheated in this position. By choosing to terminate one’s parental rights and responsibilities, you say that you are unable or unwilling to parent – including to take financial responsibility for raising child for 18 years. Does it make sense to make the ability to make this choice contingent upon the consent of another individual who stands to benefit from contesting the decision?

    I’m not saying that people who choose to parent, even in difficult financial circumstances, do not need or do not deserve financial support. However, I think it is problematic to say that this support legally must be provided by the other biological parent, if that individual has explicitly stated a desire to terminate both parental rights and responsibilities.

    My stance on this mostly comes from my discomfort at the rhetoric used to support the idea that the act of ejaculating inside a woman compels a man to provide support for any potential children that result from that physical action. As a feminist, I accept that sex and reproduction can be separated. We hear the “well you shouldn’t have had sex then” or “well you should have used birth control” quite a bit from the pro-life camp with regard to the issue of abortion. Accepting these premises turns parenting and taking responsibility for one’s biological child into a punishment. We argue against the rhetoric that women should be “punished” for their decision with a child that they feel unable or unwilling to support if they choose to engage in sex (consensual or not, protected or not), and I do not think it is ideologically consistent to then expect that of their male partners.

    I am also very bothered by the tone many of these comments take in characterizing men and their responses to pregnancy and/or parenting. Some men will be assholes and actively resist using protection, claim to support a woman during pregnancy, then disappear and avoid financially supporting their children. Some men will fail to support their children financially while demanding parental rights. Then again, some women will claim to be using birth control, tell their partners that they intend to terminate any unplanned pregnancies, then carry to term and demand child support. Men and women are equally fallible, and examples of decisions we find troubling are equally easy to find on both sides of the spectrum. To claim otherwise is to walk a line dangerously close to essentializing women’s “natural” ability to put their children first and their superiority in the parenting role.

    I think it would be great if we could broaden this conversation to suggest alternative ways in which this problem could be addressed. I think many people’s hesitation to support an “opt out of child support” option for men stems from the very real fact that this negatively impacts women who choose to parent and their children. But is this the only possible way this problem can be addressed? How might laws and social welfare policies be implemented that would enable parents to make legitimate choices regarding bearing and raising children that were not dependent upon their own financial ability to raise a child, or the perceived availability of financial support from a partner?

  64. Isn’t it correct that if you haven’t registered in the putative father register there is no need to obtain consent from you?

    I think you’re confusing the rights of a putative father with the rights of a biological father. I’m talking about bio dads, not men who have not established their bio connection.

  65. Kristen J: But how does a man establish their bio connection if the mother has chosen to register the father of the child as “unknown”?
    Anyway, I think all men should be better informed about the existence of putative fathers registers (in most states there are less than 100 registrations per year, probsbly due to their existence being largely unknown among young men) and this might also be informative for them: http://adoption.about.com/od/lawsandlegalresources/ss/putativefathers.htm which describes the legal and practical step a putative father needs to take if he don’t want the child to be adopted without his consent.

    Lizzie: I think it’s a dangerous road to defend double standards by referring to practicality. One could open up for arguments that it’s practical to discriminate against women in the workplace as they’re more likely to take time off for maternity leave.

  66. I don’t know if the conversation is as deep as some of us are making it out to be, IMHO. Adults don’t THINK. And, that lack of thinking leads to a whole lot of collateral damage, of all sorts. When so-called adults start thinking, and with the appropriate body part, perhaps this will lead to less of what is being discussed here: having to decide on how to support a child that may/may not be wanted.

  67. Can someone please comment on this comment from the Science site? Because I’m alternating between speechless and sputtering.

    “I know a young man who got a young woman pregnant.
    He didn’t want the child and she did. He got drunk one night, went over to her house, and punched her hard in the stomach. I forget how far she was in the pregnancy, but the child did not survive. The young man spent a few weeks in jail and paid a $2000 fine.

    This was regarded by some in the community as a victory for the male: a few weeks in jail and $2000 was a modest price to pay in comparison to 18 years of child support.”

    All I can say is, as long as comments like this are posted without a trace of anger or irony, we still have a REALLY long way to go.

  68. “Some men will be assholes and actively resist using protection, claim to support a woman during pregnancy, then disappear and avoid financially supporting their children. Some men will fail to support their children financially while demanding parental rights.”

    I think that using the word “some” here is very far from accurate. In my experience, a very significant portion of the male population falls into these categories. The hostile comments toward men in this thread come from the very real fact that so many men will – and do – behave like complete abusive assholes when it comes to sex, reproduction, and parenthood. While the hostility might not be entirely on the mark, it’s absolutely understandable.

  69. Roy, I’m kind of disappointed in your logic. I think it really misses out on some fundamentally important differences in how the process of child-making works for the egg-donating partner and the sperm-donating partner. In other words, generally speaking? The woman perspective. You can’t equate wallets and bodies, and like Ruchama says, you are diminishing the concept of consent. But then I remembered, oh yeah, I used to pretty much think the same thing as you, and maybe for similar reasons. After all I also don’t have to worry about having to bear a child or get an abortion; it took me a long time to get some of this through my head.

    I’m not equating the two. I’ve said, repeatedly, that I do support the non-custodial parent making child support payments, and I think it’s clear that I do not oppose abortion rights. I don’t think that my right to control my finances is even remotely the same as anyone’s right to control their bodies. But, I do object to the idea that consenting to sex automatically means I’ve consented to a bunch of things that are not inherent consequences of that act. Child support is the best solution we have to meet the needs of a child, but child support is not a foregone conclusion to having sex, and it’s pretty easy to envision a world where the financial needs of children being raised in single-parent–or even in multiparent households that lack financial resources–could be met by some kind of social system, instead.

    I’m not really clear on what parts of what I’ve said disappoint you or that you disagree with, though, because most of what you say in the rest of your response are things that I explicitly agree with. I agree that we should be teaching people the risks and possible consequences of sex. I’ve never, ever said that abortion is “avoiding the consequences”, and I don’t believe that it is. I agree that both abortion and carrying a child to term can be difficult, risky choices for different people. I agree that there are no comparable consequences for men, in that regard. I even agree that, right now, child support is a risk of having sex, and that non-custodial parents, whether they wanted children or not, should suck it up and deal with the reality of the situation. You helped create a life that was brought into this world, so you need to help provide for that life’s care.

    The only thing you said that I don’t necessarily agree with is the idea that a fetus is somehow not a human being, but I don’t really think that matters. Whether it’s human or not is completely irrelevant, since it can’t exist independent of the mother’s body.

    There’s a reason that I never, ever bring up child support in threads about abortion or the right to choose–it’s because I don’t think they’re the same, or that comparisons between them are fair, which I’ve been saying for years. A woman’s right to choose what happens to her body is significantly higher on my hierarchy of needs than someone’s right not to suffer the financial burden of their actions. That’s why I support a woman’s right to choose, but not a non-custodial parent’s “right” not to pay child support.

    But children are not a punishment, and I object to logic that treats their existence or consequences of their existence like such. Child support isn’t a punishment, it’s a social responsibility in the absence of a better solution.

  70. Hey Roy,

    Sorry if I misconstrued you and I’m sorry if the “disappointed” thing sounded mean. I wasn’t totally sure what your thoughts were on all of that, but I should have figured (and kind of did, I guess, even if it wasn’t clear) that you really were on board with all of the stuff you just mentioned.

    I guess this is the only part where it falls down for me:

    I do object to the idea that consenting to sex automatically means I’ve consented to a bunch of things that are not inherent consequences of that act.

    Let’s take as a given for a second that yes, child support as a responsibility of the people who were involved in creating a new child is the best solution we’ve got and we have to stick with it for the time being and in most cases.

    So, a child may not be an “inherent consequence” of sex, and if we believe in contraception and reproductive rights, we want it to always be that way. But still, it is on a very straightforward flowchart of consequences. It is not just a single step removed, but I don’t think that’s TOO much different in terms of what responsibilities (not punishments) people must take on when they have sex. And people clearly should take on some responsibilities when consenting to have sex; for instance, you should make sure your partner is STILL wanting to have sex with you throughout, and can communicate with you about that. If an abortion is necessary, I think most of us agree that part of the responsibility initiated by sex is that a guy helps out too, financially or supportively. That’s not a punishment either, it’s a responsibility. I think it’s important to talk about responsibilities in part because of the conservative frame that suggests we think nobody has ANY responsibilities around sex. That’s clearly not true; we just think people have different responsibilities and VERY important choices than right-wingers do.

    So here is what I mean by a flowchart. If you choose not to have sex, no kids are going to happen (unless you are raped). If you choose to have sex, then a pregnancy may result, even if there is a very small chance due to contraception. If a pregnancy results, the next step on the flowchart is something that the man has NO choice in. It’s like a black box in terms of choice — not that he can’t be aware, or participate if asked, or provide support — but it’s not his choice. Out of that “black box” comes either a termination of a pregnancy, or a carrying through of a pregnancy. We could say, pretty reasonably I think, that the male partner is responsible for half of whichever one it is.

    So I would propose something like “if a man consents to certain sex acts, there is always possibility of pregnancy, and informed consent should involve taking on the responsibility of dealing with half of whatever results from the pregnancy, whether that’s a medical procedure or a human being that needs care and raising.” Because the guy in this equation has no say in the “whatever results” part, because it’s not his body, then the outcome of this is that any act of pregnancy-possible COULD result in a child that he’s responsible, and that becomes part of consenting to sex.

  71. Tamen,

    But how does a man establish their bio connection if the mother has chosen to register the father of the child as “unknown”?

    You take yourself down to family court and get a state subsidized DNA test. It usually takes all of a week to make that happen.

  72. ““Yes, well, any man who doesn’t want to pay child support needs to think about contraception before he goes around putting his penis into someone else’s vagina.”
    Wow. Never thought I’d have heard THAT argument on a feminist website.”

    Simple biological nuts-and-bolts, coupled with not being able to override another person’s medical decisions, mean that a man has fuck-all say in whether or not a conception to which he was party results in an infant. Which means that, until we have access to time machines, men have to take their measures to avoid contributing to a baby/miscarriage/abortion before ejaculation. This isn’t really an ideological statement unless you think there’s anything sane, just, or feasible about letting one half of the population get to assume ownership rights over the other half’s reproductive organs just because.

  73. thats the thing mantis, he has fuckall to say about it ending up an infant but why should it matter? are you really content to say that biology is indeed destiny in this case and that we as a society shouldnt take steps to make things more equal as far as choices go for both sexes? Seems to me there are tons of biologial differences we control for, no reason this couldnt be one of them as well.

  74. We do have to deal with what the biological constraints are, at least until we find other ways. Biology isn’t destiny, as they say, but it’s a non-optional part of it. And in fact, dan — kind of what you’re suggesting was Shulamith Firestone’s suggestion forty years ago, in The Dialectic of Sex. Feminist classic. But we haven’t figured out things like perfect artificial wombs yet.

  75. But, I do object to the idea that consenting to sex automatically means I’ve consented to a bunch of things that are not inherent consequences of that act.

    Roy–how is the birth of a child not the inherent consequence of the act of sex? We may have sex for fun, as making love, as part of a relationship, but you cannot change the fact that the act of sex is the act of procreation. Even with birth control, you cannot completely separate sex from procreation, unless one or both partners are sterile, because all birth control can fail. Any time a fertile male and female have sex, a pregnancy may occur. If you absolutely do not want to support a child, then don’t have sex, or get a vasectomy and have your sperm count checked regularly (as they very occasionally spontaneously fail.) So, yes, if you have sex, you do consent to support a child, because if you create a child, it is your responsibility to support that child. Period. That’s the way it works in our society. If someday we have a society where the state supports every child, then you’d be off the hook. But for now, you’re stuck with supporting your child. Meeting your obligations is part of being an adult. Be an adult and deal with the consequences of your actions.

  76. Am I the only one who sees in vitro pregnancy as sort of an anti-feminist utopian idea? It always struck me as wrongheaded on Shulie’s part. People will always have bodies; those bodies will always differ in their needs. Feminism is about meeting one community where they and their bodies are, and giving that community the right to bodily self-determination. Even if women eventually do all convert, and even if uterine pregnancy does become obsolete, some other group of people will need equal respect for an equally special need.

  77. The “if you don’t want a kid, don’t stick your penis in a vagina!!” rhetoric does make me extremely uncomfortable, even if I think that the best of a bunch of bad choices leaves the father with no say in whether there is a child. IOW, I do think that the woman should have the choice, involving the father only insomuch as she absolutely wants to do so, and that once the kid is there, dad damn well should be pulling his weight in supporting that kid. And that, if the man does not want to become the dad, his only real option is to be more careful about possibly creating a child.

    Still, it feeds into a rhetoric that is very popular in our culture, that “if the woman didn’t want [a child/an STD/to be assaulted] she should have kept her legs shut.” Very disturbing rhetoric. And I think we, as feminists, could perhaps find a way to construct our arguments so as to reframe the conversation, away from that trope…

  78. People will always have bodies; those bodies will always differ in their needs. Feminism is about meeting one community where they and their bodies are, and giving that community the right to bodily self-determination.

    Yessss. Thank you, piny. So perfect.

    We should not be seeking to make every person more like an ideal, but to appreciate each person as they are, and learn how to build a society in which we all can fairly participate.

  79. Yeah, I’m not sure how I feel about Shulamith Firestone’s ideas beyond them being a thought experiment that illuminates the present through a very “post-human” vision of the future. I mean, I like it for the feminist angle (although I think some of the ways she talks about bodies and bodily processes are really not good) and I don’t like it for the “transhumanism” aspect, also decades before that term was coined. I don’t really see it as a goal to transcend our humanity, and although completely cybernetic reproduction is interesting in that it might address some fundamental imbalances, I think it would also come at a serious cost.

    AmandaW: is saying “if you choose to have sex with a woman, you must take on half the responsibility for the outcome of any resulting pregnancy, whether that means an abortion or a child” as bad as saying “if you don’t want a kid, don’t stick your penis in a vagina!!” I mean, it’s sort of saying the same thing, but in better language.

  80. “thats the thing mantis, he has fuckall to say about it ending up an infant but why should it matter? are you really content to say that biology is indeed destiny in this case and that we as a society shouldnt take steps to make things more equal as far as choices go for both sexes? Seems to me there are tons of biologial differences we control for, no reason this couldnt be one of them as well.”

    …how, exactly, do you propose we control for conception and pregnancy occurring inside the woman’s body without giving men the unjust privilege of seizing medical authority over women’s bodies? If we were one of those species where spawning involved literal spawning, with genetic material flying around willy-nilly in the external environment, this would be a controllable-for thing. Hell, if we were marsupials and could relocate the fetus from one parent’s pouch to the other’s, this would be a controllable-for thing. We are, in case you haven’t noticed, not either of those.

    Biology isn’t, however, destiny. The choice isn’t between celibacy and unwanted fatherhood, between just keeping your legs closed or being a father of five. The choice is between refraining from sex acts which can produce a pregnancy and running a very small risk of unwanted fatherhood. Condoms are effective. For men who never want children at all, vasectomies are effective. For men living in Europe and Asia, fully reversible vasectomy-imitators have proven effective. Science has given us effective male hormonal birth control, though as was noted upthread, the interest in marketing it has proven tepid, so it’s currently only available to men involved in the medical testing thereof. If you combine condoms with refraining from procreative intercourse with women whose default is “carry to term” or who don’t use birth control, you’ve taken a huge step towards avoiding unplanned fatherhood. If the statistic of 20% of men using condoms quoted upthread is correct, however, there do seem to be a lot of men who don’t want to be fathers but aren’t taking even the most basic of measures to avoid unwanted children. So I guess biology isn’t, but male entitlement might be.

  81. Biology isn’t, however, destiny. The choice isn’t between celibacy and unwanted fatherhood, between just keeping your legs closed or being a father of five. The choice is between refraining from sex acts which can produce a pregnancy and running a very small risk of unwanted fatherhood. Condoms are effective. For men who never want children at all, vasectomies are effective. For men living in Europe and Asia, fully reversible vasectomy-imitators have proven effective. Science has given us effective male hormonal birth control, though as was noted upthread, the interest in marketing it has proven tepid, so it’s currently only available to men involved in the medical testing thereof. If you combine condoms with refraining from procreative intercourse with women whose default is “carry to term” or who don’t use birth control, you’ve taken a huge step towards avoiding unplanned fatherhood. If the statistic of 20% of men using condoms quoted upthread is correct, however, there do seem to be a lot of men who don’t want to be fathers but aren’t taking even the most basic of measures to avoid unwanted children. So I guess biology isn’t, but male entitlement might be.

    PM, this bottles the answer for me.

    BTW: What is it with men who refuse to wear condoms? Is anyone able to shed light? It seems to be that there are men who are only interested in the pleasure aspects of the sex act, and don’t give a flying hamburger re: the fact that there are STDs and STIs that they and their partner can contract.

    Seems to me that there are a lot of men out there jumping in and out of bed, getting freaky, and then wondering, “what happened?”

  82. makomk, I know how babies are made. And yes, women can lie about who they had sex with, but they can’t LIE about paternity because they can’t unequivocally KNOW what the paternity of their child is. Unless she has only had sex with one man for a year and blah blah blah, ok so get a fricking paternity test and end it. She has to identify a father to get child support. If you’re not the father, take a paternity test and move on.

  83. Some states have spousal notification and consent laws for abortion. So, that actually does give the man the deciding vote on whether or not the woman gets an abortion. Those don’t effect unmarried couples though. One state passed a paternal consent law for abortion but it was struck down by the courts as unconstitutional (just think if it had been an anti-choicer making the decision).

    Child support is providing monetary support for a child so they can have their basic needs met. The system does get abused though.

    I know someone who is paying child support for a child he didn’t father. There was a paternity test done that proved he wasn’t the father but because he was dating the woman when she gave birth (and got pregnant, she wasn’t pregnant from rape) he has to pay child support until the child is 18. He only saw the child once and lives in a different state than the child. MRA’s should be working against those cases not legitimate ones.

  84. mantis i waant talking at all about when the woman is pregnant, only when there is a baby, the pregnancy is over. its been said in this thread, its not “fair” but just the way it has to be becasue of biology. well damn, we can change that right? men have no say at all once they ejaculate as to whether or not a baby comes to be, im 100% with you there. once there i sa baby they have no coice but support it no matter what the circumstances are surrrounding it? all there choice is removed by biology? seems we could take steps to change that, steps that might very well better society overall. sure there are assholes out there but it does not matter, if we have the means to make any situation more equitable for both sexes we should do so correct? having a child, as in there being one now not the process of making it, should be as equitable as possible, right now its not, in very many odd ways.

  85. vgnvxn,

    i wa shocked to find this talking point somwhat true but a dna test doesnt always work. depends on the state but there are men out there with a dna test showing they are not the father who are stll responsible. many are husbands. “needs of the child” trumps all, its very interesting, especially when you look at the stats on how many men are rasing kids who arent biologically “theirs”. not sure if theres any fix to that but it is interesting.

  86. The whole “sex means you have a baby” argument is being misconstrued.

    Here’s the thing: If two people have sex and the woman gets pregnant as a result, I’d point out to her that it was always a risk if she just freaked out and did nothing and refused to make any decsions about the pregnancy at all. It’s not, yes, you should carry a fetus for ten months and put your body at risk because you had sex and this is a punishment. It’s, look, you can get pregnant from having sex, so you’d better think long and hard about how you’re going to deal with it. (And if men could get pregnant, I’d say they should be able to decide whether or not to abort because it would be their bodies that are affected by pregnancy.) There are no do-overs after.

    With men, you know, they don’t have to parent. (Helping to pay for necessities is not the only thing you do when you parent, FFS). But if you’re the father, you’ll have to provide some measure of support. And a poster above was right–if a single mother refused to provide financial support and care for her child, she’d be charged and the kid would be taken away (even if she was coerced into having the baby and thus didn’t freely choose motherhood).

    And you can’t put a child up for adoption without the consent of both biological parents.

    Finally–I was involved with a man who, several years before we met, had a child with someone else. And you know, if he had ever bitched and moaned about CS, I would have tossed his ass out like a plague infested rat.

  87. eh perhaps seezlebub but women who are orderd to pay CS dont actually pay, at a rate higher than men who have been ordered to pay/ lots of reason for that, chief among them women dont make as much due to a lot of shitty reasns but it is what it is. i dont understand why in this debate one side is assumed to be on the side of the angels and one isnt. stats can tell a lot of stories but its never simple.

  88. Maybe the only person qualified to speak on race relations would be a person of color.
    And perhaps the only opinion regarding war would have to come from a proponent of peace.
    In the same manner, some people may believe the only qualified viewpoint about abortion would have to be from a woman since, obviously, men are ovary-challenged.
    So, being a man, I guess I have no opinion to offer. But I would like to add Barbara Johnson’s ideas to the discussion. She was a candidate for Mass. Governor in 2002 and this was her platform
    http://www.barbforgovernor..com/cgi-bin/D.PL?s=0dYkqi&d=barb.i.abortion on
    Abortion
    (1) I am pro-choice in rape situations.
    (2) I am pro-choice in medical situations: the couple must have the informed opinion of the medical professionals before having to make a decision.
    Assuming that the partners consensually acted in a manner which would produce a child, I believe the following:
    (3) I am pro-life if an unmarried father, regardless of chronological age, wants custody of the child. His consent should be required before an abortion is allowed. It took two to tango. This is not only a matter for the woman just because it is her body. She gave that body willingly to the man for copulation, knowing full well the possibility of impregnation.
    (4) I am for married couples making their own choice. Government does NOT belong in anyone’s bedroom. Neither do I. I suppose, then, in this situation, I’d be pro-choice.
    (5) If a married couple is in dispute over the issue of abortion and if the intercourse was consensual, then I would come down on the pro-life side.
    (6) If a young girl under the age of 18, the age of majority, and living in the home of her parents wants an abortion, the parents should be told and partake in the decision. “Rule” (4) — pro-choice — would come into play: it would be up to the family as a unit. If the parents for reasons A, B, and C are “unable” or “unfit” or “unskilled” to communicate with the girl, then other factors would have to come into play and “Rule” (3) — pro-life — would become operative.
    Have I covered all the permutations?
    Flexibility and fairness are the keys here. Fairness is fundamental. And the more choices a person has, the freer a person is. The greater freedom a person has, the higher the quality of life achieved.
    Rigidity causes only tension and solves nothing.

  89. Don,

    As one man to another…STFU. A woman is not a human incubator. She is not required to carry around another living thing in her body. I can’t force you to give up your liver for another person and I can’t force a woman…not even my wife…(since you seem to think that’s gives me some rights over her body)…to let another use her organs to sustain that life.

    Flexibility and fairness all sounds good, but you forgot that the woman you’re requiring to undergo 9 months of discomfort, pain, medical risk, lost income, and lot time is A HUMAN BEING also deserving of fundamental rights.

  90. I think that using the word “some” here is very far from accurate. In my experience, a very significant portion of the male population falls into these categories. The hostile comments toward men in this thread come from the very real fact that so many men will – and do – behave like complete abusive assholes when it comes to sex, reproduction, and parenthood. While the hostility might not be entirely on the mark, it’s absolutely understandable.

    That’s the crux of the argument right there. My father is better than a lot of fathers. But he still refuses to pay anything over the state-mandated amount of child support–which isn’t enough to raise a dog, let alone a child–and openly resents it and makes it plain to both my brother and myself. Being older and lacking a penis, I now know that my father is full of shit and a selfish asshole to boot. I mean, what else do you call squandering your children’s child support and college savings and watch them wear hand-me-downs whilst you buy several acres of property in Texas, buy shiny new cars, and shop in Nordstrom? I went to upper middle class to hovering above the poverty line in the years between 1st and 2nd grade. It has impacted the direction of my life vastly, and utterly prohibited me from doing a lot of the things I would have been otherwise able to do.

    And my story isn’t weird or even uncommon. Time and time again I hear from friends in my income bracket (my low income bracket) how their Dads come around to play and be “Disneyland Dad” while pissing and moaning about their bitches of ex-wives having their grubby hands in their wallets and using them as a free meal ticket when they were married. They they blithely depart from their children’s lives, leaving the majority of child-rearing to their struggling ex-wives, only to come back when they want to be “Dad” without all that pesky responsibility. Or they just say “fuck it all”, start a new family with another woman, and then use the power they wielded in their first abusive marriage to financially, legally, or physically dissuade the mother of their children for filing for some piss-poor compensation for caring from the children they abandoned.

    My mother was fired from three jobs trying to win sole custody (so my father would have to pay a pitiful amount instead of a deplorably pathetic amount of support) or trying to resist my father fraudulently reducing his support by lying about his income or just refusing to pay. Between the years she spend out of the work force raising his kids while he was married, and the years she spent in court getting fired (not to mention the legal fees attached to even presently serving papers for support), her income is so low as to be pathetic. Yet my father owns a house worth several million dollars, five cars, and numerous other goodies. And he still pays next-to-nothing.

    So, really, I don’t give a flying fuck about “Men’s Rights”. Fuck your Men’s Rights. My father ruined my life, and the life of my mother. My father is nothing special. There’s plenty of other fuckbags that want all the esteem and priviledge of having children with none of the responsibility. A woman’s job, by default, is to raise children. Which is why so many households are headed by single mothers. Even when the dude sticks around, his contribution to child-rearing is considered “helping”, which he is now a saint for doing. If she labors night and day for her children, well, that’s normal.

    Honestly, I could really care less about all this bullshit about what is philosophically and ethically great in some idyllic little world that MRAs and those stupid enough to debate and listen to them operate in. The reality is that everyone considers it the woman’s job to (a) raise children and (b) bend over backwards to not get pregnant if she doesn’t want “a”. Men get to think that being Disneyland Dads makes them good parents, and that “bareback” sex means you’re a big strong maaaan. And my story isn’t unique, it isn’t special. You shouldn’t even feel sorry for me, because the majority of single mothers have it a lot worse than I ever did.

    So instead of pissing and moaning about inconsequential bullshit that is actually a vast exercise of male priviledge and never ever happens in real life, let’s focus on making sure that women and children can afford to live, and that nobody actually still thinks it’s totally cool to abandon your children, and it’s actually the fault of that bitch of an ex-wife, who stole your manhood/children/wallet. Because once feminism has actually done something to equalize this desperate situation, then we can worry about men. Until then, shut the fuck up about men. Especially shitstains of men that abandon their own children and then whine like it’s their god-given right to sow their wild oats and then keep their dreams of being rock stars.

  91. HI folks, I just wrote a blog post on this myself hving just come across a situation that a friend of mine is going through. It illustrates the difference between the intent of the current child support laws and the reality of how they are enforced. My friend had no idea he was a parent until the partner of the woman with whom he had had sex – with birth control – only one time – decided to get a paternity test done which proved the child not to be his. So, my friend is now the father of an 18 month old severely disabled child born to a woman in her late 40’s who opted not to get an amniocentisis done in spite of the risk of childbirth at that age. Nor did she contact all the potential father’s at the time she realized she was pregnant to insure she knew who the child’s father was.

    In my mind, her negligence in failing to notify my friend as a potential father of this child should negate his responsibility to that child. He was certainly negated from the process until it suited her to involve him.

    Before you get all crazy about this I want you to sit and think for a minute. You find out tomorrow that you are the parent of an 18 month old baby to a person you only knew for 2 weeks or so 2 years ago and now your wages will get garnished to pay child support for the next 16 years. Are you really OK with that? Let’s say your in come in 40K a year. They could easily take about $800 a month for that.

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