In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Here’s Your Damn Cookie

Cara

So, you know those guys who think that they’re sooooo great for not beating their wives and for thinking women should be equal and all, and therefore feminists owe them some kind if immediate and sincere recognition?  And how we’re always asking them if they want a cookie for their trouble?

Well, someone actually decided to make up some cookies that we can hand out to the fellas on such an occasion.  Check out the explanation at 52 Acts, and see the flickr set here.  So long as it’s done with credit, she says you’re allowed to hand out the cookies as needed.  They include “not a racist,” “not a rapist,” “doesn’t hit women,” and perhaps my favorite “meets minimum standards of decent human.”

I somehow get the feeling that it won’t be long before I get to link to one of these in the comments.

via Hoyden About Town

51 thoughts on Here’s Your Damn Cookie

  1. These are great! But she forgot the “My mom works!” or “My wife works!” guys. Apparently, guys are pro-feminist if they believe women shouldn’t be forced into housewifery. *headdesk*

  2. Is it completely wrong that I kind of want to get a bumper sticker that says “meets minimum standards of decent human” now?

  3. Funny! Does Roy “No Cookies For Me” know about these yet? I didn’t see him on the original, but it just seems appropriate.

  6. Oh, that’s awesome. I’ve known a few folks who wanted cookies — or more — for not hitting women.

  7. ooh, great idea Salome, I will add ‘my mom/wife works’ to the next batch 🙂

    William: ‘meets minimum standards of decent human’ is my favourite too, so much so I am now working on a t-shirt 🙂

  12. So do they really exist, these men who think they should be commended for not being a rapist? Or for not beating women? I smell yet another straw man.

    As for as those needing a pat on the head for reading books by female authors, the above posts should be a lesson to them: reach out only to the moderate reasonable feminists who don’t view the Movement as their own Popular Girls Lunch Table. And recognize the futility of trying to make common cause with the hate-filled subset of feminists who will only mock you for trying.

  14. I don’t get the concept behind these cookies. (I mean, cookies that require an explicit concept are already half way to missing the point of cookies, right?)

    If you want to be labeled as not a rapist, shouldn’t you just not rape people? And with all the acquaintance rape, gray rape, date rape, et al. going on, I think guys should get more than cookie. At least a Livestrong-type bracelet.

  15. I have let through the comment by chinmusician, who obviously has spent much more time on feminist blogs both reading comments and moderating those comments that don’t get posted than I have, because it amused me immensely. Especially the part about how it’s totally reasonable to expect a pat on the head for doing something so noble yet difficult as reading books by female authors.

  16. At least a Livestrong-type bracelet.

    Maybe I’m just a cynic, but if I saw someone wearing a bracelet that proclaimed “not a rapist” I think I’d pretty much assume it was camouflage.

  17. So do they really exist, these men who think they should be commended for not being a rapist? Or for not beating women?

    Yes. Would you like their names and current addresses? I have a very long list. They may all be made of straw…but alas they are still assholes.

    Hell, not six months ago I had a DV client whose husband’s “excuse” was “well, I didn’t hit her with the belt.” [Well then! No weapons were used so that dislocated shoulder is no big. I thank you, sir, for your restraint.]

    Maybe I’m just a cynic, but if I saw someone wearing a bracelet that proclaimed “not a rapist” I think I’d pretty much assume it was camouflage.

    Yeah, because why do you need to broadcast the fact that you don’t commit violent crimes…I mean…should we each be wearing a livestrongesque bracelet that says “not a murderer” or “not a klansmember” or “not an animal torturer”.

  18. You know, it’s posts like this that help keep down the number of pro-feminist men. It’s not exactly easy to be a male in the modern era, receive all sorts of misogynistic messages from every male figure in your life, choose to work against those messages, get continual messages from our mothers about how no woman will ever love or respect you on a teacher’s salary instead of on a lawyer’s salary and how the only true measure of a man is how much he earns; to go out of your way to try and actually listen to women’s issues and points of views rather than simply accepting the patriarchal model which seems to be effective, especially during the formative high school years when every muscle in your body is furious with your mind for choosing not to act in a disrespectful and condescending manner which seems to be what all the guys who are actually get dates are doing.

    It’s damned infuriating. Everyone wants to get a least a little bit of acknowledgment that they have made the right choices every now and then, and if what movement feminists offer are condescending pats on the head, there’s hardly any incentive to even TRY to meet their standards.

    But go ahead and make posts like this. Nothing makes a man who is trying to make pro-feminist strides feel welcome like condescension and mockery. Maybe he’s his making cursory first steps in the direction of feminism and this sort of behavior makes him reconsider. I think the occasional bit of acknowledgment that doesn’t smack of damning with faint praise isn’t too much to ask.

  19. I think the occasional bit of acknowledgment that doesn’t smack of damning with faint praise isn’t too much to ask.

    Clearly, there are those who disagree.

    Everyone wants to get a least a little bit of acknowledgment that they have made the right choices every now and then, and if what movement feminists offer are condescending pats on the head, there’s hardly any incentive to even TRY to meet their standards.

    I think you’re missing the point that’s being made here. There are very few other arenas in which making simple correct choices (There aren’t stores that have signs up that say “Thank you for not shoplifting,” for instance) are rewarded with praise and recognition. The things mentioned on the cookies are basic, and people shouldn’t need to be encouraged to do them.

  20. Tom Foolery,

    When you are trying to shift societal models of masculinity and when people are receiving mixed messages, it is perhaps, necessary.

    I don’t see anyone openly suggesting that people shoplift, whereas the messages about how to treat women aren’t codified in law.

    What you are saying is correct in theory, but in the actual experiences of many young men that little bit of acknowledgment that they are making the correct choices can go a long way.

  21. Hey Lurker: If it’s not about you, don’t make it about you. If you’re a genuine ally–of any movement, be it feminist, anti-racist, whatever–you’re looking for more than a cookie anyway.

    Guys who are looking for a cookie? Guys who think they deserve recognition for merely meeting the bare minimum being a decent human being? That’s not “making cursory first steps in the direction of feminism.” That’s a guy wanting a pat on the head and stopping the work there.

    Feminists, and sites like this one, do acknowledge the work of pro-feminist men. We care about the men in our lives and our allies online. It’s because we care about them and value the work they do, in fact, that we are unwilling to give empty praise to men who aren’t doing the work and fighting the fight.

  22. So, wait. Is the first comment thread where I am forced to hand out a virtual cookie actually going to be the thread on which I mock men for expecting us to jump up and down with gratitude because they, for example, could’ve raped that drunk girl at the party and didn’t?

    Pretty impressive, I must say.

  23. And yes, what MK said. I thought that was pretty clear, but, um.

    But no, I am not going to hand out actual cookies to a guy who treats women like people despite his social conditioning. I will likely respect and enjoy his company more if he isn’t the kind of guy who also wants cookies, but I’m not going to thank him for being decent. Not any more than I expect a person of color to react with gratitude every time I treat him or her like a person worthy of respect.

    Because that is in fact meeting the minimum standards of a decent human.

    Actually interacting with feminism, educating oneself, supporting feminist causes, challenging other men when possible, doing activist work, etc. is different. And not what we’re talking about here.

  24. What you are saying is correct in theory, but in the actual experiences of many young men that little bit of acknowledgment that they are making the correct choices can go a long way.

    Ahem…if you need a cookie…you miss the point. Its like the “if I were God” argument.

    If I were God, would I want people to pretend to be nice to each other because I will smite them if I catch them being mean or would I want people to be nice to each other because they genuinely care about each other.

    If you need a cookie…you’re just pretending to give a shit about women…you really primarily give a shit about being perceived as giving a shit about women.

    Which at the end of the day reminds me of this guy…He’s still seeking cookies.
    http://thecurvature.com/2008/08/02/update-on-kyle-payne/

  25. Think all of comment #18 could fit onto one cookie? Might be fun to try! 🙂

    (sorry if that was mean)

  28. There are a lot of responses here, so it will take a while to shift through.

    If you could fit my first comment on a cookie I’d be very impressed.

    As far as Cara’s comments, I don’t disagree. Motivations should be internal and men shouldn’t be pro-feminist for the sole purpose of receiving some sort of reward. That said, it isn’t wrong to occasionally celebrate men for making pro-feminist choices, deciding to educate themselves on feminist issues and working toward a more equal, less gender-role defined society.

    Maybe I haven’t met many men who fall into the sort of category you are talking about in the initial post, who are expecting rewards for meeting the basic standards of human decency, but even if they don’t deserve those rewards for meeting a baseline standard, I’m not sure they deserve mockery either. Perhaps the best choice of action is a neutral response or an invitation to learn more and become more active. Mockery is an invitation toward alienation.

  29. When do I get to be “celebrated” for making pro-feminist choices? Or what about for making choices that are good for dudes? Hey guess what! I didn’t marry a guy for his money! I don’t call men names for not being appropriately masculine! I never tricked anyone into getting me pregnant! Where’s my party?

  30. Again, Lurker, no one here has suggested that we mock men for making actual pro-feminist choices.

    Here’s an analogy:

    My brother, a Straight Male, is actively concerned with queer rights. He regularly calls out homophobia, supports marriage equality, and actually listens to his queer friends and loved ones and understands what they have to say.

    Other Straight Males (and women, for that matter), have graciously never beaten the shit out of me, or tried to “cure” me, or called me disgusting. And they don’t mind if I want to have a commitment ceremony with my partner–really, that’s fine, I can go right ahead–but they’ve gently informed me that marriage is simply between a man and a woman, and no offense, but I should never expect to get married.

    The second group does not deserve a cookie. Sure, they’re a step up from the Fred Phelpses of the world, but that doesn’t mean they’re actually making any move toward eliminating bigotry or securing queer rights.

    And my brother? He’s not asking for a cookie. He’s being a good person and trying to do what’s right, and I love him dearly but I would never patronize him by saying “Hey, thanks for not being a homophobic asshole!”

    See the difference?

  31. Maybe I haven’t met many men who fall into the sort of category you are talking about in the initial post, who are expecting rewards for meeting the basic standards of human decency, but even if they don’t deserve those rewards for meeting a baseline standard, I’m not sure they deserve mockery either. Perhaps the best choice of action is a neutral response or an invitation to learn more and become more active. Mockery is an invitation toward alienation.

    Here’s what you appear to be missing: When men who meet basic standards of decency demand applause for it, they lower themselves below basic decency standards. To use Tom Foolery’s shoplifting example, if I don’t shoplift, that’s good, because I shouldn’t be shoplifting in the first place. But if I walk up to the cashier and say, “By the way, I didn’t steal anything today. You’re welcome,” and I smugly expect them to respond with, “Wow, really? Thanks so much! You are so awesome. Can I hire you?,” I have gone from “basic decent person” to “wow what an asshole.” Get it?

  32. “When do I get to be “celebrated” for making pro-feminist choices? Or what about for making choices that are good for dudes? Hey guess what! I didn’t marry a guy for his money! I don’t call men names for not being appropriately masculine! I never tricked anyone into getting me pregnant! Where’s my party?”

    Hee. There’s a bumper sticker that’s popular around here–“I stop on red.”, with a picture of a red traffic light next to it. Every time I see that sticker, I get the urge to give the driver a giant thumbs-up for their heroic commitment to road safety.

    Also, I don’t abuse my pets, even when I’m angry with them. The animal-rights folks may contact me when they’ve properly arranged my much-deserved all-expenses-paid trip to Disney World.

  33. When do I get to be “celebrated” for making pro-feminist choices? Or what about for making choices that are good for dudes? Hey guess what! I didn’t marry a guy for his money! I don’t call men names for not being appropriately masculine! I never tricked anyone into getting me pregnant! Where’s my party?

    i think we should take this further. i myself have never done any of the above things. i’ve also never expected a man to pay me child support so i don’t have to work, falsely accused any men of rape or sexual assault, or demanded that a man buy me expensive shoes, cars, purses, or houses. i also do things that support men, such as advocating for family friendly leave policies for men and women and combating assumptions that there is only one true form of masculinity.

    so i should now be exempt from wolf whistles and other forms of street harassment, being grabbed inappropriately in bars and clubs, and being treated like i am stupid just because i have breasts. can someone please let me know how to contact the appropriate there’s not a patriarchy club that can issue me a special exemption button that identifies me as a non-evil woman?

  34. I get it. I just think that there should be extrinsic as well as intrinsic motivations to become pro-feminist. People are imperfect and have powerful desires and one such desire is approval. Extinsic motivation can transform over time to intrinsic motivation once they understand that feminism benefits men as well. I just realize that at one point I was seriously on the fence about feminism and what pushed me toward a pro-feminist position was that I felt welcomed by the feminist and LGBT groups at my college despite being a straight male. I agreed with their causes on a personal basis, but it felt good to feel like I was part of a community of like minded individuals and that, while I was not a member of either group, I was welcome as an ally.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that we have to be careful with neutral cases. I don’t believe that can be accomplished when men who are still deciding their personal philosophies vis-a-vis get high fives, free beers and porno for joining the boys club and condescension and mockery when appealing, however half-heartedly to feminism.

    I don’t think the legal examples are effective. There are real criminal penalties involved for shop-lifting or running a red light. Pro-feminist behavior is neither encouraged or discouraged by law. There are few easily apparent social penalties for a young male joining the boys’ club in this day and age. Meanwhile, taking a seemingly neutral response results in derision.

    Can these men be obsequious little jerks? Sure. But they are impressionable obsequious little jerks and are far less likely to become allies if they don’t feel like they’re on the receiving end of condescension and mockery.

    Am I being humorless? Maybe. But if I were to receive these messages when I 16 years old, I probably would’ve ended up choosing to read Neil Strauss instead of Ariel Levy.

  35. I should have edited that post better. I mean to say that they are far less likely to become allies if they DO feel like they’re on the receiving end of condescension and mockery.

  36. and i think it’s important to remeber there a number of different facets to the feminist blogosphere. certainly we do not want to turn a potential feminist ally into a “boy’s club member” through derision and mockery. but at the same time, there can be immense frustration when a feminist discussion is derailed by a 101 question or by a male ally centering the discussion on how great they are for participating in it. there are a number of different goals of feminism, and recruiting male allies by coddling them is not always the primary goal. attempting to center that goal in every feminist discussion would, in my opinion, do more damage to the feminist movement than an expectation that allies have internal motivation for participating.

  37. I have been a feminist for a long time, and I have to say, the cookie stuff does make me a little uncomfortable. It is understandable that people should not be rewarded for meeting minimum standards, but should instead be rewarded for actually doing good. However, given how pervasively unjust and screwed-up the world is, I think that sometimes men who do just meet the minimum standards of what feminists would believe is decent might be worth rewarding.

    An (admittedly exaggerated) example: It is wrong to torture. Always. No doubt about it. But I think if one is in a context where everyone is torturing, and it might be risky for you to speak out, then speaking out against it is a commendable act. The Millgram experiments and the Stanford Prison Study both show this is really hard to do. I think the person who exposed the abuse at Abu Grahib is actually a hero, even though just exposing it is the bare minimum one should do.

    Similarly, under the Nazis, people hid Jews so that they would not fall into captivity. Clearly, this again is a bare minimum of what is required to be a decent human being. But under the circumstances, it was heroic. A similar point could be made about those who participated in the underground railroad.

    That said, Straight Male Lurker, I think that one of the problems with this has to do with “the economy of gratitude” which some feminists have discussed. There is marked inequality in who has to feel grateful to whom and for what. So many feminists are reluctant to hand out cookies for things that should be standards of behaviour for everyone. For one thing, asking feminists to do so makes us complicit in our own oppression. (If you are interested in learning more about economies of gratitude, Arlie Russell Hochschild has a book called The Second Shift, where she talks about how this plays out in families. Cheshire Calhoun and Claudia Card have also written about this. You can also google it, but be aware that the term has been appropriated by religious groups, so you might want to include ‘feminist’ in your search term). Part of women’s unrecognized emotional labour also includes the requirement to be grateful for what we should be able to expect.

    So, to tie this all back to the original comment I made about heroism being dependent on circumstances, it might be alright to seek confirmation and congratulations, but this should be sought from other feminist men rather than from women. Part of being an ally involves changing the way men and women relate. Part of the way men and women relate under patriarchy involves women being grateful to men for all kinds of things that are inappropriate. If one perpetuates this relation then one is not really ending women’s oppression, but rather continuing it (thereby nullifying the original reason one may deserve a cookie).

    Similarly, although standing up for torture, hiding Jews and helping slaves escape are all commendable acts under the circumstances, it is not those tortured, Jews or slaves that should be grateful. Instead it is those who are not members of those groups who should be grateful to the person who was able to bring the mistreatment to light.

    For some further information the Feminism 101 blog has some useful comments
    http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/04/17/faq-what-do-you-mean-by-not-my-nigel-feminist-abbreviationsjargon/
    under “Nice Guy TM”
    and
    http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/mens-roles/
    about what roles men can appropriately play if they want to be feminist allies

  38. I apologize if I’m derailing this conversation. I would not bring this issues up in these thread I felt inappropriate it was inappropriate these issues.

  40. i should clarify – this thread, which is explicitly discussing treatment of male feminist allies, is one i consider appropriate for this discussion, Straight Male Lurker. however, in my experience, this issue can and has derailed other threads devoted to other issues. i do not feel this thread is being derailed by this discussion. and i think gauging where these discussions are and are not appropriate is an important part of the balance that allies need to negotiate.

  41. Thanks. I wouldn’t have brought these issues up in a thread concerning rape, choice or trans issues. Since I’m new to the community, I just want to make sure I’m not breaking any unwritten rules.

    Bakka makes some interesting points to chew on. I think the point I’m trying and failing to get across is that there is a difference between acknowledgment and gratitude. Acknowledging someone just means that you believe they are making the correct choices. Women do NOT owe these men gratitude. Gratitude implies a debt. There is no debt for acting at a baseline level of decency.

    The issue here is that I feel the cookie is derision in the form of false gratitude.

    So I suppose what I’m trying to get across is that men need to hear that they are making the right choices, not be thanked for it because they aren’t OWED anything. They just may benefit from sign posts signifying that they ARE moving in the right direction and that they do have something to gain if they move further in that direction in terms of respect for their non gender-normative life choices and more honest and rewarding relationships with people of other genders and sexualities.

    Does that make any sense?

  42. But not raping does not equal appealing to feminism. Having been raised by a working mom does not equal appealing to feminism. I don’t understand why you are making the cookie issue about you (and other male allies) when it is not about you.
    The men who say the sorts of things we’re talking about are not feminist allies and are not interested in being feminist allies.

  43. Straight Male Lurker, I think you are right about gratitude implying debt. And I think the point I was trying to make is that just as it is hard for men to shake off gender roles in order to become feminists, so too it is hard for women to shake of gender roles to become feminist. Under patriarchy women *are* expected to be grateful to men for all kinds of things as duty or debt (“protecting” us from other men, doing the dishes once in a month etc.). So I do get your point about acknowledgment and external motivation. But I think one of the feminist points I was trying to make is that when acknowledgment is systematically expected of one gender (and not the other), it becomes gratitude.

    There are lots of interesting posts about entitlement and privilege that discuss these issues. There are also lots of feminist blogs that talk about how men can usefully contribute to feminist discussion. Most agree that looking for acknowledgment/praise/cookies is not one of the useful ways.
    Here’s one
    http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2008/06/men_feminism_ne
    Here is another
    http://community.livejournal.com/feminist/1362470.html

    I do try to let the men in my life know when they have done something I think is feminist. But if they ask me for it, that is a different story. I agree that feminists should encourage men to be feminist, but men should not ask for or otherwise seek this acknowledgment. Does that make sense?

  44. @straightmalelurker

    I totally agree. if you have to make concessions to the so-called women’s movement, you should at least receive a modicum of reward or positive feedback. An ironic, funny cookie that’s been all feministed up is not any kind of “sign post” at all.

    I mean, if it weren’t for the speed limit signs facing me, I’d have no idea if I were driving the right way down the road. If they made ironic speed limit signs–IT WOULD BE ANARCHY!

    (It probably would be, though…)

  45. I don’t know whether someone with the username “The Patriarchy” is being satirical or not.

    Bakka,

    I understand that there’s definitely an expectation that women should feel indebted for anything and everything in their life and that making those demands is an unfair and sexist expectation. I can’t empathize with those feelings since I’ve been raised with the mentality that I’m entitled to whatever I work for whether or not that “thing” is a human being. I’ve trained myself out of that perspective because I think it is flat out wrong. People are not objects to be acquired and shouldn’t have to be put in a position where they feel they are accountable to keeping other people satisfied. I suppose it’s finding the middle ground between that position and making men feel like they are unwelcome that is tricky.

    SarahMC:

    Do I feel the cookie is about me? Not at the moment. But ten years ago it definitely would have been about me, or at least I would have interpreted it as such even if it that were not the intent of the baker.

  46. I get it. I just think that there should be extrinsic as well as intrinsic motivations to become pro-feminist.

    Replace “pro-feminist” with “anti-sexist” in that sentence and see if you still feel the same way.

    When you talk about men being “pro-feminist,” it sounds like you think they’re doing women a favor. Like it’s volunteer work, or something. But anti-sexism, to me, is basic human decency. Of course I’m anti-sexist, because sexism is bad. I didn’t require external validation to arrive at that conclusion, and I don’t require external validation to maintain it.

    Shorter me: Why would being rejected or even mocked by feminists make a guy less anti-sexist, if his anti-sexism was sincere?

  47. to Straight Male Lurker:

    Era, boy, would you not ever just eat your bleeding cookie and be done with it!

  48. I really dig this.

    After I got into Andrea Dworkin and other feminist writers a while back (including this blog) I started calling myself a radical feminist. Now I have serious hesitations about using such a moniker for myself. It comes down to the fact that I know that I have been socialized as a man in a patriarchal society and that the very things, the thoughts and attitudes and practices which feminists take time to combat and critique are present within me. I think that for men the term “feminist” is something they have to wait to be applied by women; feminism is the fight by women for their own freedom and elevation to the level of humanity. Men can agree with them, but I have a hard time thinking that men can flippantly self-apply such a term.

    Maybe someday I’ll earn it, in the meantime I just want to avoid getting a cookie.

  50. Don’t you get the concept of irony? The cookie isn’t LITERAL. This applies to white people claiming to not be racist because they care so much about equality. So what? It isn’t about the other person’s feeling/comfort/acknowledgment for doing the right thing. Often once they get the cookie they’d stop doing the thing that gives them the sense of entitlement to demand it in the first place and it becomes about eliciting a response versus being righteous.

  51. Pingback: No Chris Brown, You Do Not Get a Cookie. « hipsterette

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