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Who Gets to Say What, Part II (Blog Hierarchies)

(This is the second part of our series of reflections on Feministe and its place in the bewildering and sometimes nauseating constellation known as “the feminist blogosophere.” You can read part one here.)

This time, your hostesses start to scratch the surface of meritocracy and the lack thereof, the social economies that create “large” and “small” blogs, the connections that create those economies, and a continuation of responses to What if the feminist blogosphere is a form of digital colonialism?

Is blogging a meritocracy? Could it be? What do we do to keep hierarchies of oppression from relentlessly structuring who gets heard and who doesn’t?

Holly: A lot of discussion in the last year about inequities in the blogosphere have started by focusing on the flow of money. It’s not a bad starting point, since following the money trail often leads you to power. The thing is, in this corner of the blogosphere, and often in feminist publishing in general, looking at the actual paychecks makes you realize we’re arguing over the crumbs of the patriarchy. And many WOC bloggers have pointed out over and over that suggesting their anger over white-dominated discourse is all about getting some money in their pocket is pretty insulting.

If you’ve been following these conversations about inequities in the feminist blogosphere, you’ve probably read at least a few comments by now pointing out that the issue of money is somewhat of a red herring. Blogging is barely even a minimum wage job most of the time at the top end of the spectrum. A whole bunch of smart people, including Kai and apostate (in comments on this post) have noted that we should be looking at status, social pull, popularity, and who gets a lot of attention from other blogs, from commenters, and from the lurking 90% of the audience that only reads and never comments.

It’s been my attitude for a while that audience attention is a form of wealth, and wealth should be shared. Like I said almost a year ago in a paragraph that got quoted more than I expected: “When any of us have a soapbox, an opportunity to get up and talk, we must continue to stand by those who aren’t called on.” You know, that’s not even that good of a quote — I should have said “and call on them ourselves when we have a chance to do so.” That’s why I’m glad that we’ve been trying to do more guest-blogging and more regular link round-ups. And why I am pretty perplexed at the idea that pointing towards other people’s work is exploitative.

There are some problems with applying a pure economic analysis to social economies. One simple examples: profit doesn’t often flow two ways equally, and usually you can look towards the side of greater power and watch all the money rushing “downhill” in that direction. Social esteem and communication can round-trip much more easily, sometimes automatically. That’s part of what’s wonderful about making friends, or kissing: goes both ways. (Fans of capitalism like to fantasize that economic relations work this way too, but it’s often just wishful propaganda.) Blogs are full of examples: Links and trackbacks. Quotations on one side, the full article on another site. A guest post, and discovering an entire blog. Multiple conversations, informing and feeding each other from many nodes in a network. A lot has been written about social networks and the development of online communities and communication tools. If you don’t get this stuff, it is hard to write a coherent critique of what’s happening; anyone who wants to do a power analysis of an environment as technologically mediated and rapidly evolving as the internet had better have a very firm grasp of the technology and the changing ways people are using it.

Jill: One thing that Mandy and Brittany got right is that blogging is not a meritocracy. Feministe gets a lot of traffic not because we’re the best feminist writers on the internet — although I do think my co-bloggers are quite good — but because we’ve been around for a long time, we’re on some big-name blog rolls, and there are enough of us to provide a steady stream of content. We work hard. I like to think we do a pretty good job most of the time. But so do a lot of other bloggers who don’t get millions of hits every single day — so there’s a lot more going on here than just hard work or talent.

Part of dismantling online hierarchies that reflect “real-life” ones, and part of mitigating that unearned blog-privilege, is ethical blogging practices and platform-sharing. We happen to have a large-ish platform, and we have ongoing conversations (usually over email and not in smokey back rooms, but maybe we’ll arrange more appropriate quarters next time) about how we can use our platform responsibly. Responsible blogging requires linking ethically, giving credit when someone else’s post sparked an idea or influenced you, and noting where you found information. For us, it’s also meant getting more voices on Feministe in a way that will drive readers to other great feminist websites. Linking is a good start, and our history of inviting guest-bloggers on was a continuation of that ideal. My own guest-blogging and writing stints on other sites have helped to bring new readers to Feministe. I never felt that I was being “tokenized” or colonized by writing for the Huffington Post or the Guardian, and I doubt anyone would suggest that was the situation — probably because it’s just assumed that I have the ability to make my own decisions about where I contribute and share my work, and that I’m not being hoodwinked by The Man when I write for larger publications.

So it struck me as offensive and frankly bizarre that Mandy and Brittany would dedicate so much time in their post to attacking guest-blogging practices — and that while trumpeting their disgust with “tokenism,” they would use WOC bloggers to go after big feminist blogs, the real targets (“wolves in sheep’s clothing,” to use their term). A lot of women of color and feminist and pro-feminist bloggers of color have been writing about hierarchy, racism and privilege in the blogosphere for years now, but I didn’t see links to the posts that surely influenced and shaped the now very highly-trafficked one at Professor What If. I did see weirdly academic footnotes, criticism of Western feminist bloggers for posting and moderating comments during their waking hours, and irritation when other bloggers wrote about the post in their own spaces — all of which makes me think that Mandy and Brittany don’t spend much time engaging with the blogosphere, or don’t understand the ethical codes that have evolved out of years of writing and sharing information online.

In their apology (which seems to have been written by Mandy, even though it’s signed by both writers), she explains that “not linking the URLs before the post went up was due to PWI’s lack of knowledge about how the Internet works, not mine,” which seems like a cop-out to me — not to mention throwing PWI under the bus — but that’s neither here nor there. The apology is constructive, to an extent, insofar as it’s at least a recognition that something went very awry with the original post. But many of the same problems persist — it’s posted at a URL called “digital colonialism,” first of all. And Mandy seems to be under the impression that she’s in a “double bind” — she tried to “stick up for WOC,” and now they’re mad. And to complicate things, it turns out that women of color have a whole lot of different opinions, and when there’s not one single consensus she’s not sure what to do. Ilyka covers this all pretty well.

Jack: I’ll keep it short – the whole bit in the original digital colonialism piece pissed me the fuck off. When I read this sentence, I nearly blew a gasket: “Many radical bloggers, both women of color and white women, have not been naïve enough to buy into these symbolic co-optation efforts, but some have.” Well shit, Nice White Ladies, thank you for telling me what’s what.

And as Jill writes above, their apology on this point didn’t really do it for me. I was not angry at Mandy and Brittany for “sticking up” for women of color; I was mad at them for SAYING RACIST PATERNALISTIC INSULTING BULLSHIT to and about women of color. Seriously, I’m not sure where the confusion lies there.

Lauren: The original post’s “objective” hyper-academic tone also grates, especially since Mandy at least is hardly objective. There’s public record of a spat between Mandy and her apparent object of interest, which makes me believe that the initial post isn’t about “big feminist bloggers” in general, but about one in particular. And while I have no desire to get involved in other people’s disputes, the fact that all “big feminist bloggers” were lumped together with no names named is suspect, considering the fact that this ongoing dispute clearly exists. For what it’s worth, it appears Brittney participated as a Feministing vlogger for some amount of time as well.

It’s kind of odd, then, to call for transparency. Including the information that both of them have some personal history with Feministing could have added to some credibility bolstering their argument (Was there a situation where their work was not recognized or credited, for example? Or did they feel “tokenized”?), but it makes sense in a piece partially about transparency to include it. Which adds on another layer to my anger about the piece: the duplicity. If there was good criticism to be made in the PWI post, it’s because it was other people’s criticism first. The rest appears to be a continuation of a personal argument.

Regardless, in this particular situation I’m still disappointed that the so-called “tokens” have been forced to take the weight of this insult largely on their own.

Cara: I think that we also deserve some of the responsibility for the fact that they have had to stand largely on their own. Because of the length of time that it has taken to formulate this response — due to a commitment to write collectively, which I think is important — we haven’t gotten out there at the speed that the blogosphere so often demands. I of course don’t think that our guests, and our non-guests who also insulted, need us to defend them; and as proven by the many links above, they have of course done a marvelous job of refuting the arguments on their own. I just wish that we had been able to stand in solidarity with them sooner, and it truly makes me sick that, as BFP has noted, an argument between white women has come down on the shoulders of women of color.


56 thoughts on Who Gets to Say What, Part II (Blog Hierarchies)

  1. I don’t know why I didn’t write more on this part since I have LOTS of opinions that I want to share. 😀

    1) I still think of Feministe as a small blog, I think in part thanks to the community of commenters that are regularly engaged and on topic. When I see what I think of as a “large” blog, you have lots of thread drift, “FRIST!” and senseless, rude infighting that I think we’re largely able to avoid here. I thank the commenters and community for that.

    2) Blogging is not a meritocracy. At all. Anyone that asserts as much shouldn’t be taken seriously. Yes, I think it does command a certain command of the language, but I think so many people whose ideas and experiences are valuable are marginalized by virtue of several factors. For one, for whatever reason, I think being able to afford your own domain and hosting will immediately spike your credibility currency and traffic. That’s a class thing. For two, I think there are class perceptions about using WordPress over Livejournal or Blogger. I have no idea why, since they’re all free services with the same basic structures, maybe someone with more e-experience can answer that one for me. Maybe it’s trendy? Or due to the open-platform ideal? For three, I think there are differences between “issue” blogs and personal blogs that will inherently limit traffic. I tend to look for personal blogs where I get a feel for the author’s life and what is inspiring their writing, but also like big blogs like Boing Boing for the quick posts and novelties.

    3) Timing. Like I mentioned in the transparency post, I think part of Feministe’s ranking is due to timing. I started early, and like a lot of early bloggers, got some of the initial recognition before many of the other “big” feminist blogs got going. And I should also mention, my expertise on feminism as an early blogger was very little. I’d read some books, taken a couple of classes, but mostly I was a teen mom trying to work out some of my own issues and theories online where I could get feedback, primarily because I didn’t have that kind of feedback in my meatspace life. I think feedback is important for a person to continue their online participation, but I’ve been really bad about participating in comment sections in recent years.

    4) Ultimately I think the most interesting and important feminist/activist work being done online is not at ALL by the “big” feminist bloggers, but by smaller bloggers, and in particular WOC bloggers. When it comes to organizing there are a few people who really have it down — for example, I love the Walks series being done by BFP and Jess of make/shift because it’s inspired me to get off the computer and implement some of their suggestions in a way that no other blogger has done for me in recent years. But mostly, I love bloggers that illustrate how their political ideals actually play out in their personal lives. I like reading about real experiences because I get, again, so little of that in my own meatspace.

    5) So how do we restructure that? My only solution has been to share the wealth, as it were, by passing along traffic and featuring people I know of who are doing interesting things in a digital space. This is relatively limiting in that I can only promote people I know of, but I lurve email and will always check out something new. *hint hint*

  2. “In their apology (which seems to have been written by Mandy, even though it’s signed by both writers), she explains that “not linking the URLs before the post went up was due to PWI’s lack of knowledge about how the Internet works, not mine,” which seems like a cop-out to me — not to mention throwing PWI under the bus — but that’s neither here nor there.”

    The apology was written by both of us. We had extensive conversations via email with PWI about the mentioning of the URLs not being linked b/c of her lack of technical expertise *specifically* because we wanted to be sure she didn’t feel like we threw her under a bus, which she *doesn’t*. She fully agreed that we should include that part in our apology because we were being blamed for something that we were not responsible for. That our own knowledge and credibility was being undermined by something she did. And PWI posted a comment admitting that this was her fault, not ours, before we even posted the apology. It would be nice if you would update this post to reflect the truth.

  3. RE: Feministing
    To indulge Lauren’s gossip mongering: Was there a situation where their work was not recognized or credited, for example? Or did they feel “tokenized”?

    No and no, but nice attempt at discrediting our critiques by bringing up a, what, three year old argument that has long been resolved. Girl, that’s some Nas and Jay-Z shit. But it’s pretty funny that you’re painting a picture of me like I’m some nefarious wicked step-sister just waiting to enact my revenge. LOL! I’m not entirely sure who all else I’ve disagreed with or agreed with because I’ve been having conversations in the blogosphere for years now, and to be honest, I don’t keep track. Do you?

    Let’s see, on the transparency tip, I’ve also written for Renee at Womanist Musings. And I run Feminist Review with 9 other women and about 200 other writers. We don’t always see eye to eye either.

  4. There are some problems with applying a pure economic analysis to social economies.

    Oh, that’s so bloody key. More to say on that later, I think, but…yeah.

    For that matter, “materialism” usually isn’t. Most of the time it’s not about the creature comforts or other material goods/services, the pursuit of moneymoney, or at least only: it’s subtler, more complicated shit. If it -were- only about material stuff, especially a rational understanding of How Things Are with material stuff, I believe there wouldn’t be the phenomenon of “can’t ever get enough,” although there’d still be inequity.

    anyway.

  5. So how do we restructure that? My only solution has been to share the wealth, as it were, by passing along traffic and featuring people I know of who are doing interesting things in a digital space. This is relatively limiting in that I can only promote people I know of, but I lurve email and will always check out something new. *hint hint*

    One of the things I liked early on about Alas was (were?) the regular and extremely lengthy link roundups.

    I like feministe’s self-promotion days, the link roundups, the guest stints. I think–yeah, even more could help -shrug- admittedly I’m not really in the loop these days…

  6. P.S. I’ll get the goods on that three year old argument from you back in that smoky room at, you know, our scheduled time.

  7. @Lauren: “This is relatively limiting in that I can only promote people I know of, but I lurve email and will always check out something new. *hint hint*”

    I have a related suggestion. It was a bit disturbing that when I and a few other people raised the issue of adoptee and donor-conceived rights on the older “childfree” thread, we were shouted down by fallacious privacy arguments.

    This is obviously a sore spot, and the minority viewpoint deserves to be represented. I’d suggest soliciting a guest post from a blog such as Harlow’s Monkey (a long-established blog on transracial adoption and social work) or other adoptee-rights blogger in order to create a measured discussion about how reproductive choice, feminist theory, adoption, race and class intersect with this subject.

    In this case, “who gets heard” generally means white, upper-middle-class parents selecting from a wide menu of reproductive choices, and the institutions that make money from helping them make those choices. “Who gets silenced” is everyone else that their choice affects.

  8. I think so many people whose ideas and experiences are valuable are marginalized by virtue of several factors…
    One obvious factor that Lauren didn’t expliecitly mention is time. Time to read, time to think, time to craft a post or a response. Participating in the blogosphere, even just as a lurker, requires a certain amount of free time, which for a lot of us is in very short supply. Running a blog, of course, requires orders of magnitude more. I wonder to what extent the kind of voices you hear — and don’t hear — is affected by this.

    Another skewing factor is what you might call “reaction time.” Even back in the days before WWW was anything more than a sign of a stuck key and discussions were conducted at the rate of UUCP (or a 300-baud modem), on-line discussions tended to get dominated by those who responded first and most frequently. Those who had to or wanted to take some time to think over what they had read before responding generally found that the discussion had burned out or mutated before they could say anything.

  9. Mandy, firstly if you think that the references back to your original blog post and all of the problems with it are going to stop, you’re wrong. That’s a big part of what we’re discussing. The issues you raised, how we agree that some of them are indeed issues, but while stressing that we largely do not agree with how you raised them — because for all of the reasons that you apologized, we quite understandably do not wish to be associated (or misinterpreted as agreeing) with how you raised them.

    Secondly, Lauren is hardly the only one among us who knows your history with Jessica and thought of it the entire way through reading that blog post, attacking big white feminist bloggers while refusing to name names. If you weren’t referring specifically to her and didn’t want us to make those assumptions, you should have named names (other than, as covered, the names of women of color when the post was supposed to be about white women). Or, you could have just put a “full disclosure” note somewhere in the post, as is customary and would have been certainly relevant in this case, particularly when one is asking for transparency of other people.

    Lastly, I hate the fact that I’m even addressing you about these points, because you seem determined to simply come onto every thread we put up and derail it to talk about yourself. Rather than all those points we’re raising that you supposedly wanted us to discuss in the first place.

    Please, let us get this back on track, everyone else. We’re here to discuss blog hierarchies. And that is frankly both a lot more important and a lot more interesting than all of the nonsense I typed out above.

    Oh, and for those who are wondering (like Kristin was in the last thread) — the way this got cut is just really not in my favor, and I swear that I do make several substantial comments in the later posts 🙂

  10. I think the Feministe bloggers aren’t giving themselves enough credit. Blogging usually is a meritocracy. When I first started out (I’ve since shut my blog down), I started reading some friends’ blogs and followed links to others. When I came across intelligent, thoughtful bloggers, I tended to return. All the blogs that I read regularly (including Feministe) I found by accident and returned because they’re good.

    Isn’t that meritocracy?

  11. I really appreciate AMM’s point about time. Lots of things impinge on the amount of time people can devote to blogging, commenting, etc.: income levels, caretaking responsibilities for children and others, the necessity to work a second job, and so on. If I were still a childless student I’d probably spend all my time commenting on blogs! As it is, teaching and childcare responsibilities mean I always feel like I’m hiving off time from other duties just to write my own posts (dang, I should be grading papers this very moment). And I enjoy a *lot* of privilege, comparatively speaking, so I can only begin to imagine what it’s like for a single mother of young kids who has to ride the bus two hours each way to work.

    A related point – and one I would love to see addressed in this series before it ends – is this business of the “smoky backrooms.” It’s a pretty silly image. I don’t see vast feminist conspiracies at work. And yet, I’m curious about where back-channel communication fits in. I’d like to know how conversations via email and Twitter drive the agenda.

    On the one hand, I totally get how you need to be networked in order to bring breaking news to your readers. Connections also let you delve deeper and practice a modest amount of investigative journalism. All of that is great. But on the other hand, it seems obvious that these same back-channel connections will serve to perpetuate a hierarchy.

    I’m asking about this not on my own behalf. I’m perfectly content for my blog to stay small, although I do appreciate the shameless Sunday promotion, so thanks for that! This just strikes me as another area where a future post could increase transparency – especially for those of us who remain stubborn Twitter refuseniks.

  12. “This just strikes me as another area where a future post could increase transparency – especially for those of us who remain stubborn Twitter refuseniks.”

    This is a good point.

    Signed: A Staunch Twitter Refusenik

  13. This is my first comment on Feministe, and I wish it were somewhat more substantive, but I just wanted to say that I think you guys have been doing an excellent job of covering this.

    I kind of feel for Mandy and Brittany in the sense that in my “younger” feminist days I was less cognizant of the fact that my good intentions do not trump everything, and I was afraid of humility for no earthly reason at all, and did not realize that my sense that I was entitled to be heard at all times on all subjects was not a righteous position but an exercise of privilege. But, hopefully, they too will learn… although the apology is not promising.

    P.S. I do think it merits mention, again, that the use of a pejorative term for transgender people in the original post remains largely unapologized for – the focus has been on the insults to RWOC. But I am still amazed, regardless of any technical problems with correcting it once it was called out, that it made it, misspelled, into the original post, and that the explanation in that apology remains at the level of “my transgender friend didn’t mind it.”

  14. 1) I still think of Feministe as a small blog, I think in part thanks to the community of commenters that are regularly engaged and on topic. When I see what I think of as a “large” blog, you have lots of thread drift, “FRIST!” and senseless, rude infighting that I think we’re largely able to avoid here. I thank the commenters and community for that.

    Why, you’re welcome, Lauren! 😉

    I think of Feministe as a participatory community, in that commenters are actually paid attention to, and posts can and often do stem from what came up in comments. Daisy frequently questions/comments/explores why older women don’t blog or comment more often and wonders if it is more of a technical thing, a perception thing, or even a respect thing. For me, I’d have to say that what keeps me coming back to this place again and again, as both a frequent commenter and occasional guest-blogger, is that I feel respected here in a way I don’t on other feminist and/or progressive sites. I get plenty of opportunity to be marginalized and disrespected IRL; I don’t need to seek that in my off-time (which is what blogs are to me) too.

    Oh, that’s so bloody key. More to say on that later, I think, but…yeah.

    Oh, I certainly hope so, belle. Again, the emphasis on pure numbers (of hits, comments, or whatever) misses the point—quality in this realm outranks quantity. What “quality” is varies from person to person, but jeez, how many folks give the Biggest or Most Popular restaurant, bar, coffee shop, whatever, as Their Personal Favorite? Blogs are about participation and community, full stop. It isn’t just about reading or skimming around. Lurkers eventually become commenters if they stick around long enough to like a place, the same way new faces end up as regulars in offline communities.

    And what Sungold and AMM said about time. Time is a huge factor; it’s more of a factor for me than technical skills, and I’m damn near computer illiterate (fun fact: I used a PC for the first time in 1998. It wasn’t until 2002 that I discovered the cut-and-paste function. No joke! Twitter? Don’t make me laugh! WTF is it? Why do people use it? Does everyone in the world have free wireless except me? Where do people find the time for this shit, anyway? But I digress….)

    And yet, I’m curious about where back-channel communication fits in.

    I wonder about this too. I don’t necessarily see this as a negative, but it can be if it is allowed to be—if it replicates existing patterns of who gets the microphone. I say “not necessarily a negative”, because back-channel also gives a space for the overlooked to be heard amongst themselves for a change.

  15. Isn’t that meritocracy?

    Well, sorta…

    I mean, once you get to the level of having a blog, and having people outside of maybe your mom who want to read it, and getting to the point where you’re showing up in blogrolls and getting linked at bigger blogs, from there to an extent it sort of is. But before you get there, there are still all those hurdles of access to an audience.

    AMM’s example of time is a really good one in this regard. When I was in college I had a (pretty mediocre) blog, and had a smidge of traffic occasionally. But then I started a career that is pretty demanding of my time, so I just don’t have the ability to blog like I used to. I’ve tried to start new blogs in the intervening years, but I just don’t have the time to devote to that and also continuing to comment and do other online stuff that might garner me an audience. I decided that what I like best about the blogosphere is the community and dialogue/feedback aspects, so I’ve limited myself to participating as a commenter for the time being.

    It’s kind of like the way that being a student at an elite educational institution might be a meritocracy, but getting to be one of those students is often not really a meritocracy because of a variety of factors we’re all probably familiar with. Harvard might be the meritiest meritocracy EVAR, but for the probably millions of kids who are brilliant enough to get in but don’t have access for whatever reason, their merit counts for very little.

  16. Others (Jill? Cara?) can probably answer questions about the back-channel communication between blogs better than me. I am really bad at checking the shared feministe mailbox, and not that many other bloggers get in touch with me to talk ideas (hi Latoya, I am writing you back soon).

    I think you guys also mean the back-channel discussions that we do in order to make decisions for the blog, right? That is mostly done via e-mail. I don’t use Twitter, although I think it may become increasingly significant since it fits into many people’s available time much better than long-form posting. (Which speaks to the crucially important point that AMM brought up about time as a resource.)

    Here are some sample e-mail subjects:
    – Jill says, hey everyone I am trying to tally hours for this month, please send me your hours. This was kind of a slow month, not much traffic, although post X was pretty popular, but we didn’t make much from ads. (Subsequently, Holly forgets to send in hours and forgoes her share, which is fine, but dumb of me.)
    – One blogger says, hey I was thinking of posting about this, is anyone else going to write about it?
    – One blogger says, we are getting a lot of weird trolls from somewhere on post X. I am going to be away dealing with my life, can someone moderate it? Also, can we ban poster Y? He is obviously just trying to derail the conversation. Most of the rest of us (usually) are like, yeah, ban him.
    – One blogger sends a particularly awful troll post to the rest of us.
    – Jill or Cara or someone who pays more attention to the feministe inbox says, hey we were invited to participate in this posting project, or link exchange, or call for submissions, or someone wants to interview one of us for their college paper on blogging. What do people think? Some people weigh in, other people don’t because they’re busy or just forget. Maybe someone volunteers to help. Whoever took initiative to raise it usually sees it through.
    – This latest “we should really respond to this firestorm, because we are one of the big feminist blogs who was impllicated by the vague criticism, and our guest-bloggers and women of color bloggers deserve more than just stony silence on Feministe’s behalf.” This was a very unusual occurrence that led to about 20 e-mails going back and forth as we drafted these posts and talked about when we could possibly post it.
    – Coordinating projects that require a little more direct involvement on more than one person’s part, like live-blogging election stuff, or the recent Yes Means Yes live blogs. I am not too good at stepping up and being involved in these, someone else could say more.
    – Figuring out what we can and should do with ad networks. Finding an ad network where we can have some more control over what ads are displayed. Talking about which ads make us uncomfortable and how we can try to keep them from appearing, resulting in switching networks, figuring out how the networks work, etc. I am really grateful to the other bloggers who have been dealing with ad network stuff, because I hate ad networks and have to deal with them for my day job…
    – Dealing with technical problems, and what we can do about them, and whether we should upgrade some technical component (thankfully, now we have a tech goddess!) Discussion of bringing our tech goddess on.
    – Discussion of bringing our awesome book reviewer and link-round-upper onboard to help with that stuff and expand our capacity a bit.
    – Coordination of guest-blogging: in the summer, Jill has sent out a call for suggestions for guest-bloggers to everyone, and we all send in bloggers we like. I am bad at reading a lot of blogs, but I suggest people I like. Jill sends out lots of invites and gets people set up. In other cases, we just say “hey I am thinking of asking so-and-so to guest blog about X” and everyone else is like “hey ok cool.”

  17. I have no dog in this fight, but would simply like to observe: dudettes, a WHOLE lotta energy gets devoted to duking out these heirarchies and allocations of power. Is it really all necessary?

  18. I think that Holly did a rather good job of explaining what it is that the Feministe bloggers discuss on the back end, and gave an accurate rough sketch of how those conversations tend to go.

    As for discussions I have with other bloggers? Well, let’s see.

    A majority of the conversations I have with other non-Feministe bloggers are through Twitter (http://twitter.com/thecurvature). I’m rather friendly with a lot of other feminist bloggers, big and small, through Twitter, and would even consider some friends. Those conversations tend to constitute:

    – Check out this article. (It’s good/UGH)
    – I have a new blog post! Check it out!
    – Hey, did you see this blog post here? (It’s really good/UGH)
    – More in-depth conversation about why a blog post/article pisses us off
    – Haha, look at this supremely stupid comment, isn’t it amusing?
    – UGH, look at this really obnoxious comment, isn’t it annoying?
    – I’m getting overrun by stupid trolls whose comments aren’t even getting approved. I know you all can commiserate with me.
    – Really good post you wrote, there.
    – Various other blogging-related frustrations
    – My cat is so cute/I’m hungry/Man I love the Beatles (that one’s almost always me)/I have a family member or partner who sucks right now/I’m really broke/here’s some random awesome or sucky thing that just happened to me/and other such random nonsense about our personal lives.

    Some might call that networking, and I suppose that it is, in a certain way. Mainly, I use it to keep me sane throughout the day, to keep in touch with people, and because Twitter is just plain addicting. The people I follow are those with whom I had an existing relationship prior to/outside of Twitter, and those who have consistently responded to my tweets in thoughtful/amusing ways.

    As for non-public discussions with other feminist bloggers, those happen a lot less often, usually through email or the occasional gchat. Those tend to include:

    – Here’s a project I’m working on, maybe you can hype it? (Usually from bloggers I don’t know well. Answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no.)
    – Have you seen this article/issue? WTF? I blogged about it and this is fucked up so I think that more of us maybe should. (This one seems increasingly less common on my end — maybe I just got taken off the mailing lists though :P)
    – UGH random this is pissing me off venting thing (usually gchat)
    – Personal advice. For example, I got a particularly nasty and personally threatening comment over at my other blog, and after asking for general advice on Twitter, I went and talked directly to both Ann (because she emailed me) and Jessica (because it’s who Ann recommended I talk to) from Feministing about what to do, since they have obviously dealt with this kind of issue before.

    I rarely check the Feministe email either, to be perfectly honest. I’d love to, it seems like lots of good stuff gets sent there . . . but I’m frankly really bad at email, and count it as quite the win if I can keep up with just my personal account. Which I usually can’t.

    Any other questions on the matter, I’d be happy to answer/clear up.

  19. I love that you all are addressing these issues and we’re hashing it out. One minor, minor comment.

    Holly,

    “And why I am pretty perplexed at the idea that pointing towards other people’s work is exploitative.

    I *think* the issue here is who we choose to point to, confirmation bias as it were. For example…if I were to blog about sex worker rights, I’d probably point to Ren rather than a rad fem that I disagree with. I agree with Ren on many thing so my bias is to think she’s right and awesome (I’m not saying she’s not intrinsically right and awesome, I’m just pointing out the confirmation bias).

    So if I’m writing about racial issues and I link to WOC bloggers X, Y, and Z because I think bloggers X, Y, Z are awesome…I have to be mindful of the fact that I may be selecting them because they agree with me. AND by failing to select WOC blogger L whom I think is a tool and completely wrong in every possible way but who has specifically addressed this issue, I am presenting an incomplete, perhaps even inaccurate, picture of the issue.

    The problem is when the hierarchies overlay the confirmation bias. If I, as a person with some marginal amount of authority, say bloggers X, Y, and Z are *correct* while ignoring blogger L, then it could be seen as using bloggers X, Y, and Z to support *my* truth at the expense of other points of view like blogger L.

    To be clear, I cannot recall a specific post where any of this has happened. I’m not calling anyone out…or anything like that. I’m just pointing out a problem [nearly?] every human being has.

    Of course none of us can put forth every point of view or every perspective. There are just too many perspectives, many of which we disagree with for valid reasons. And I’m not certain there is a “solution” in any real sense to this problem. It’s a be mindful problem rather than a do 3 Hail Marys before each post.

  20. “Ultimately I think the most interesting and important feminist/activist work being done online is not at ALL by the “big” feminist bloggers, but by smaller bloggers, and in particular WOC bloggers. When it comes to organizing there are a few people who really have it down — for example, I love the Walks series being done by BFP and Jess of make/shift because it’s inspired me to get off the computer and implement some of their suggestions in a way that no other blogger has done for me in recent years.”

    I mean, there are a million things I want to say in response to this entire thread, but I kind of feel my head might explode. But this quote from Lauren, all I have to say is

    WORD.
    * * *

    I guess the whole term of “blog hierarchies” freaks me out a little bit. I started blogging almost three years ago and in that time my writing, my voice has changed. It went from talking about the most mundane things in my life – my commute to work, what goes through my head while driving behind a truck full of porter potties, teaching, my nephew’s first word – to writing about my body politics, my activism, the extension of my beliefs into daily practice.

    As my writing solidified, so did my readership.

    But, here’s the thing, that’s not my interest.

    I. just. don’t. get. it.

    What matters to me is not how many readers I’ve got, but how well I’m working, how my writing is, whether I’m learning, and how clear my understanding is of a new concept or way of thinking/reasoning.

    This whole big blog vs. small blog thing…it’s weird. And then to add “hierarchy” sounds SO odd to me.

    I don’t measure blogs by their size. I measure it by my own arbitrary, works- and-applies-only-for-me litmus test as to whether I learn – really learn – from the posts and comments. Most, not all, of those experiences for me, like Lauren, happen on WOC blogs and sites.

    I began blogging to carve out a space for myself in the world, to have a small pocket with my writing, thoughts, and lessons. I don’t see it as big or small. I see it, more importantly, as mine. Authentically mine.

    (Don’t get me wrong. I admit that it’s wonderful when people read and comment on something you worked on for over a week. Let’s not be ridiculous. It’s awesome.)

    I’m rambling now.

    In the future, if anyone wishes to write about the online WOC/RWOC experience, I advise you to be 2/2 in the following:

    1) You are women of color and identify as such
    2) You are open to the avalanche of reaction you will receive when you write about race, tokenism, perception and intention

  21. Wow, thanks for giving so much information, Holly and Cara. My question (written in haste, as usual!) was aimed mainly at how networking occurs among different blogs, not so much your internal communications. It’s totally clear that you guys need to communicate about a slew of mundane but indispensable logistical stuff, as Holly describes.

    My interest is more on this level: How does the agenda get set? For instance, often the same issue will show up on nearly all the big group blogs within a short span of time – is this a result of Twittering or is it instead a swarm effect, where you converge on an issue because you all have similar preoccupations? Does Twitter in fact generally create the kind of camaraderie that Cara mentions, or does that only happen with select people? What does it mean that people who enjoy some prominence in the blogosphere will have far more followers than people that they’re following?

    I’m not asking about this in a spirit of attack, at all. I’m coming from a position of naivete, because I see Twitter as another potential giant time suck (I ignore my Facebook most of the time too) and am largely ignorant of how it works. I’m interested in understanding how anything bigger emerges from it, beyond a list of links and cute cat stories. Not that I mind cute cat stories!

    What I hear Cara saying is that there may be a gap between one’s personal motivations (overcoming the writer’s isolation and staying sane) and the cumulative effect, which is indeed to build networks and communities. Those networks may ultimately lead to linking, book projects, etc. Or not. This is not so different from the main sphere where I work (academics) except that you guys are using technology far more effectively.

    By the way, I’ve appreciated this whole series, and especially the spirit of openness and respectful self-inquiry and criticism that runs through it. I think it speaks really well for all of you at Feministe.

  22. How does the agenda get set? For instance, often the same issue will show up on nearly all the big group blogs within a short span of time – is this a result of Twittering or is it instead a swarm effect, where you converge on an issue because you all have similar preoccupations?

    As far as I can tell, there is no official structure or cause here. Sometimes I will see a link to something faster via Twitter than I would if I just waited to get to a post through my blog reader (which I am always behind on). Sometimes I will see something in my blog reader. Sometimes we’re all on the same mailing list for whoever sent out a certain tip to a story. Sometimes a story will just be really prominent and so we all tend to see it more or less on our own.

    For me, the reason that I usually write about one of those such topics that seems to pop up on every feminist blog is just because I see it and go “OMG that makes me so angry I have to write about it now.” Again, though it used to happen more often that feminist bloggers would send out mass emails to each other with regards to a certain article issue, I usually get maybe only one of these every month now. If I get a direct communication from someone asking me to write about something, it is almost always from a reader.

    If I see anything about setting a feminist agenda, it is usually through very public discussions like this one, where we talk about what feminist blogs should and shouldn’t be doing, what we should be talking about, if our effort goes too far towards a certain area . . . in fact, other than a few conversations with the Feministers about how to make this blog better, I can’t think of a single time I’ve been a participant in a non-public conversation of this kind.

    I’m interested in understanding how anything bigger emerges from it, beyond a list of links and cute cat stories. Not that I mind cute cat stories!

    I’m not sure that, for me, a whole lot “bigger” has come out of it other than camaraderie and friendship. And a much faster, more casual and more efficient way to say “have you seen this?”

    But different people also use Twitter in different ways. Which is why you may (perfectly understandably!) be not particularly interested in how I use Twitter personally, but why it’s also kind of relevant to the discussion of how it’s used. Some people I follow use it mainly as a link-sharing tool. Some use it mainly as a promotional tool. I personally use it mainly as a griping tool! Haha. No, seriously, I do.

    Does that answer the question? Or no? I have no idea!

  23. Yeah, Cara, that’s a really helpful explanation. The contrast to how “old media” work is pretty striking. Your process is much more bottom-up and anarchic.

    What you describe is really no different from how us “little” bloggers operate – or at least how I decide to write on something, I guess I shouldn’t speak too much for others. The only real difference is that you mention an email list, but that doesn’t sound like it has much impact at all.

    I do think that the camaraderie matters, and I’m guessing it comes into play when people do book projects, panel discussions, etc. Again, that’s much like how academia works.

    Thanks so much for taking the time to indulge my questions!

  24. AMM said: One obvious factor that Lauren didn’t expliecitly mention is time. Time to read, time to think, time to craft a post or a response. Participating in the blogosphere, even just as a lurker, requires a certain amount of free time, which for a lot of us is in very short supply. Running a blog, of course, requires orders of magnitude more. I wonder to what extent the kind of voices you hear — and don’t hear — is affected by this.

    I could never have blogged while I had a kid at home. (For one thing, she often needed the only computer I have for actual homework.) And I often just have no time to comment on all the blogs I love.

    And having a job in front of a computer, where one can dart in and out of threads, blogs, etc… is worth its weight in gold. I have absolutely no access to the internet on my job, for long hours at a time. Lots of times, discussions are winding up by the time I get there. Or I make a note to comment when I get home, and the whole blog has already been deleted (really!) and/or the thread has expanded to 500 comments and there is no way you can keep up with it all.

    The women I work with around my age, have no idea how to do anything beyond sending email. Computers intimidate them, and despite my offers to teach them some basics, they seem ashamed of this lack of knowledge and obviously don’t want me to know how deep their ignorance is. When these women see my blog, rather than react to content, they say “Wow, did you learn to DO ALL THAT YOURSELF?!”–they think it’s some difficult tech knowledge. (They don’t care what the photo is, they wanna know how I made it show up on my blog like that.)

    There is most definitely a digital divide, tech divide, whatever you want to call it.

  25. I think the Feministe bloggers aren’t giving themselves enough credit. Blogging usually is a meritocracy. When I first started out (I’ve since shut my blog down), I started reading some friends’ blogs and followed links to others. When I came across intelligent, thoughtful bloggers, I tended to return. All the blogs that I read regularly (including Feministe) I found by accident and returned because they’re good.

    Isn’t that meritocracy?

    Not really. We used to watch THE ROCKFORD FILES because you know, TV had three channels and that was it. Now we have five dozen channels and we can be pretty picky. Nobody watches THE ROCKFORD FILES anymore.

    If I had more choices of women bloggers my own age? I would go there instead. But so many don’t know how to blog, as I said, so I am reading younger women by default.

    La Lubu: No joke! Twitter? Don’t make me laugh! WTF is it? Why do people use it? Does everyone in the world have free wireless except me?

    Do you have the website number for Twitter? /Joe Biden

    (And he is VICE FREAKING PRESIDENT, and he is clueless. Imagine what its like for the rest of us!)

  26. Along the lines of what Sungold is saying, I’d like to discuss (on another thread, not here) the whole phenomenon of back-channel and private email lists, and how they are used (both) to strengthen and weaken the feminist blogosphere… how shunning and shaming happens, how star-making happens, and all shades in between.

    If you dare. 😉

    (This X-factor definitely influences blogging hierarchies.)

  27. There is most definitely a digital divide, tech divide, whatever you want to call it.

    There sure the hell is. For example, when Cara talks about looking at stuff on her blog reader, my first thought is “what’s a blog reader?” (really. I don’t know.) Now, computers don’t intimidate me per se, I think of them as just another tool, but so much about computers is based on prior knowledge. It’s not geared toward someone whose learning style is visual-spatial, as mine is. Out of sight isn’t just out of mind for me; it may as well not even exist. Finding the paths of how-to-do things isn’t as self-explanatory (or perhaps it is to people whose mind leans in that direction. Mine doesn’t. On the plus side, after ten years of using a PC and being online, I’ve finally started learning some rudimentary principles of organization. I had to, in order to learn how to find files that I might need later. I never had any idea what a filing system was before! Yes, I suck at outlines too. My system of organizing anything I might need to find later was something along the lines of “strategic piles.” That works in the physical world; on computers—naahh.)

    I tend to read posts in the early morning, if I don’t lay around in bed too long, and later in the evening. Today was Casimir Pulaski day, so I took the day off (since there was no school and no SCOPE) and caught up on online reading. I seldom compose anything on the fly in front of the keyboard—my computer time is hit-or-miss, so I compose a lot in my head and jot notes in a notebook—crazy, nonlinear notes with arrows ponting this-way-and-that, and doodles and shit. Then I hit the coffeepot and type like a demon. I can’t type anywhere near as fast as my mind works, but I can compose a handwritten rough draft of ideas in shorthand/doodles almost as fast—the keyboard is kinda limiting in that sense. It may not be, for someone who grew up using one.

    Part of the digital divide is age, part of it is class and/or employment related, and part of it is not even having the access to people who know how to teach or solve tech problems. Most of the books written to give people tech help assume a higher level of knowledge than what a real beginner has—we need “098” or “099” remedial lessons, while the so-called help starts at 101! And I can’t ask my kid how to do stuff, because she doesn’t know either (and I worry about that—that she’ll be “left behind” in the New World because I can’t teach her those skills). And another part is access—not just the time, but having the tech tools (like a laptop and wireless). There are very few places with wireless access in my city, and practically all of them are coffeeshops—so, while the wireless itself is free, it isn’t, really. There’s no such thing as sitting on a park bench and getting online unless you have megabucks. I read stuff about print being dead, or “dead trees” or such, and I think, for whom!? As long as books and magazines are more portable, and wireless remains an out-of-pocket cost, print isn’t going to die.

  28. Not really. We used to watch THE ROCKFORD FILES because you know, TV had three channels and that was it.

    OMFG!!!!! Daisy, I love you! THANK YOU!!

    (we had five when I was growing up. the three networks, the PBS station, and a UHF station that would come on after 3:00 PM. As I tell my kid, “I was the “remote control”!! “Hey kid, get up and turn the channel!” Oh yeah, those were the days.)

    (on another side note, you should see the look on her face during “Life On Mars” or when we watch period movies like “The Hoax”. She can’t believe the seventies!! “Oh.My.God. Mama! Did you see that guy’s pants?!“)

  29. You know, I think it is HUGE that Mandy and Brittany did not disclose they had particular problems with Feministe and/or Jill. But I’m an adult and I am capable of hearing their point of view even if I’m not particular impressed with the authors.

    However, as this post and the previous post made clear, there is an unwritten code within the feminist blogosphere that people who read for a while can catch onto.

    You mention proper linkage and citation. I also think it is important that the “big girl” bloggers make a habit of commenting on smaller blogs and I’ve seen a lot of the feministe bloggers do this repeatedly.

    Does anyone know whether anyone has written up a good “how to” post? It would be nice to have a place to point people like Mandy and T Love to so they can learn how to better interact online. I thought Lauren and Jill provided great feedback to T Love on Part 1 of this post, but it was unfortunate that it took up space on that thread.

    I’m looking forward to your post about moderation!

  30. One obvious factor that Lauren didn’t expliecitly mention is time. Time to read, time to think, time to craft a post or a response. Participating in the blogosphere, even just as a lurker, requires a certain amount of free time, which for a lot of us is in very short supply. Running a blog, of course, requires orders of magnitude more. I wonder to what extent the kind of voices you hear — and don’t hear — is affected by this.

    Oh god, time. Of all the things I didn’t mention. Time is one of the major reasons I’m not as prolific as I used to be. I can’t respond to things fast enough, can’t research what should be researched, and can’t carve out enough hours to write something lengthy. There has been a major difference in my time crunch since I’ve been out of college. Blogging was never much of a distraction or a procrastination tool while I was in school (if you ignore the many Which David Hasselhoff Are You? quizzes) because what I was writing about here was so often parallel to whatever I was doing in school. Looking back, it was a great supplemental tool for my education. But did I also mention I am a mom?

    So here I was, a full-time student, nineteen years old with a toddler, and trying to figure out what to do with my free time while my friends were out partying. You know, Baby E is in bed, I’m bored out of my mind, and I don’t have cable but I *do* have this dial-up internet and a clunky old computer. Let’s see what I can do with this monster! It was kind of a perfect storm as far as the time commitment for the blog went: I was home a lot with the baby, and not working because I was in school, but even as a full-time student had a lot of time where I wasn’t in class or working full-steam on some project. My social life was mostly online, so that was a huge incentive to sinking time into the blog like I did.

    Now a few years out, working full time, over time, the primary breadwinner of the family, the boy is in school and has homework and project demands of his own, and the other banal, regular stuff that is required of an independent adult, I don’t have time like I used to. It sucks because I have ideas and can’t execute them, or because by the time I’ve gotten to them, eight other people have covered it better than I can, or I just don’t have ideas at all. I read a lot but don’t comment. Huge lurker.

    If I’d come to blogging at this age and in this situation, I never would have started one in the first place because it would have seemed like a huge distraction from all the real world responsibilities that I have. When I am participating online in a meaningful way, it’s because I’m ignoring that the house is a pit, that my kid is bored and wants me off the computer, or that my husband and I haven’t had a real conversation in three days. Plus I have other hobbies *designed* to get me off the computer — I try to cook something elaborate once a week (month), and garden when the weather is nice — things that are self-preservative and more healthy than refreshing my email to see if someone wrote me today. I’m trying to move more instead of sitting on the computer for ten hours a day at work and another five when I get home. I used to joke about The Sims that way: My Sim people were happy, well-entertained, and well-fed, meanwhile I haven’t showered in three days and my life was going to shit around me. 😀

    But yeah, time is such a huge issue.

    As far as the “smoky backrooms” go, the only “agenda setting” that goes on with me is asking others for advice on my writing, conveying ideas, or trying to crystallize what it is I’m thinking about some issue. Most of it is between friends and it rarely makes it to the blog in a literal way (I struggle with this because I want to be able to credit my closest confidantes without revealing their confidences). The only “big” bloggers I talk to regularly are my co-bloggers, and apart from what Cara and Holly said above, most of that is us ribbing one another or emailing and chatting about silly shit like Beatles jammies and fart jokes. It’s why I found the “underground bunker” argument so amusing.

  31. Today was Casimir Pulaski day…

    AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH! I love that you *celebrate* that! I swear nobody knows about Casmir Pulaski day who isn’t from Illinois, Michigan, or Indiana. LOL

  32. When I am participating online in a meaningful way, it’s because I’m ignoring that the house is a pit, that my kid is bored and wants me off the computer

    Fuckin’A. I’m being pestered right now because she wants me to put on a movie. As for good ol’ Casimir, I think I’m gonna give a ration of shit to my Polish union sister for not taking the day off!

  33. Along the lines of what Sungold is saying, I’d like to discuss (on another thread, not here) the whole phenomenon of back-channel and private email lists, and how they are used (both) to strengthen and weaken the feminist blogosphere… how shunning and shaming happens, how star-making happens, and all shades in between.

    If you dare. 😉

    (This X-factor definitely influences blogging hierarchies.)

    Daisy, thanks for bringing that up. I wanted to myself but wasn’t sure whether it really “fit.” It depends on whether the conversation is “how do the Feministe bloggers use back channels?” or “how do women online use back channels?” or etc.

    In my experience, whether I find back-channels toxic or strengthening depends on who’s in them and what their aims are. You only need one or two people using the back channels to dodge accountability for their words and actions outside it to make a back channel officially a Tool of Evil.

    Call that out in the back channel, and chances are you won’t see any corresponding change in behavior outside of it–because it’s still cloaked, it’s still a secret, and if nobody has to know about it, why change anything? You can’t bring enough pressure to bear within the confines of the back channel, because back-channel pressure isn’t a big enough lever. If it were, you wouldn’t have had the problem in the first place.

    On the other hand, if you call shenanigans outside the back channel, you risk all the usual consequences that come with whistle-blowing. Not that that’s all bad–my personality, at least, is poorly suited to back channel communication just in general–but is there a loss of power that accompanies being booted out of the back channels? Yes.

    The back channels I find most helpful are small (I do not do email lists) and intimate, with the exception of Twitter, which I’m not sure is really a back channel–depends on whether you’ve protected your updates or not. But Twitter has more transparency than IM or email and to me is kind of its own thing.

    Finally, the number-one thing I use back channels for?–Blowing off steam and having a laugh. Sometimes things get to you and you want to be able to say so in a less-formal way than you might in a blog post. And in my case, anyway, I want what’s said to be funny. That requires a more relaxed, trusting environment than I’m going to get in even my own blog comments.

  34. It was kind of a perfect storm as far as the time commitment for the blog went: I was home a lot with the baby, and not working because I was in school, but even as a full-time student had a lot of time where I wasn’t in class or working full-steam on some project.

    This is really interesting. I had a similar sort of “perfect storm” around blogging in college because I worked the whole way through in shitty service jobs where I was standing around all day, bored out of my gourd, with nothing to do between customers but contemplate things. I’d jot ideas down on scratch paper and type up blog entries whenever I had some spare internet time.

    In comparison, it’s much harder to find the time to devote to maintaining a blog now that I have a desk job that occupies my mind a lot more. Even though I have much more access to the internet.

  35. “how do women online use back channels?”

    I meant Feminist Blogdonia participants, generally. Everyone. And just WHO gets emails, who doesn’t, who is asked onto a list or kicked out, who isn’t, is all very pertinent to this discussion. I’m talking about cliques, in short.

    And I was thinking of the power of the posses, also. When 50 people suddenly show up on some sleepy thread, and you are like, huh? Obviously, someone sent out the red alert.

    It skews things. It means participants on these lists rarely disagree with or criticize each other, since the harmony/friendships of the list take precedent. So, only “outsiders” bear the brunt of criticism.

    Political clarity and honesty, invariably suffers. And it’s also just generally confusing, if you don’t know what’s going on: “Why is this person getting roasted alive, but this other person can say/do whatever they please?”

    That’s often the reason.

  36. Daisy and Sungold,

    To clarify there is no official mailing list. Or at least, if there is, I’m not on it! I apologize if that was unclear. What I meant was that sometimes someone used to send out a post or article to a bunch of feminist bloggers, and sometimes I was on that list. I imagine that many times I wasn’t. If I was going to send out such an email, which I did like . . . twice . . . my list would have likely been different from the list that any other individual blogger likely used, because not all of us are friendly with the same bloggers. I think the last time I got one of these emails was like 2 or 3 months ago.

    And also, like I said, this rarely happens anymore. Or, if it does, I’m not privy to it. Most of the emails that are conducted between bloggers from different sites, or again the email exchanges that I take part in, are between two bloggers, or maybe three.

    So I really do apologize if I made it out to sound like there’s some secret elite feminist mailing list — the opposite is what I was trying to imply. For all I know the list may exist, but if it does it’s too secret and elite for the likes of me 🙂

  37. Is that more clear now? I’m not saying that there is no back end networking or friendships between bloggers at all, but just that it’s not anywhere near as structured as you all are making it out to be.

    For example, Daisy, I don’t think you’ll mind me saying that like many people you’ve sent me links to stories asking me to cover them, sometimes along with the information that you’ve written about it yourself at your own blog. That’s the kind of communication we’re talking about, again usually between just 2 bloggers, or sometimes 3 or 4 if something is sent to multiple bloggers of a group blog.

  38. Cara, I didn’t mean Feministe… I meant other lists throughout the blogosphere. They do exist. (And I am talking now about comments on blogs, too, and how that shakes out.)

    Would the Mandy and Brittany follies have spread so fast otherwise? Well, maybe. But I know *I* linked it in an email to someone, so I am talking about myself here too.

  39. Daisy — really interesting point.

    My first thought was –well, that’s just capitalism, right? And I have no problem with that (insert caveat as to appropriate regulation here). People kind of use resources to accumulate power (in numbers, wealth, whatever) and wield it — it’s a free market, so certainly people have the right. Free speech, and all.

    But it’s a good inquiry, I think, what effect this takes in the blogosphere — is there something unique to this phenom that leads to quirks in what information is presented based on the written nature of things and the particular dynamics of blogging, in which the number of commenters and inability to read people live come into play? Does access to supporters whom one can rally affect how others view ones authority, irrespective of content? Is that similar in any way to what can happen in corporate America, although it seems to be its opposite?

    Switching gears, on the meritocracy point. Blogging isn’t a perfect meritocracy just like IRL isn’t. And as folks have pointed out above, “merit” isn’t always measured by dollars (like that great sleeper indie movie) or hits. But it is somewhat of a meritocracy in that good, prolific content does draw and deserve viewers. Even where sometimes this doesn’t happen where it should, we can still take pride in it, something women traditionally have difficulty with.

    Also, where a Bigblogger may think she’s been fair/kind to marginalized bloggers by claiming it’s no meritocracy, a more balanced acknowledgement that it is in part may be fairer to those bloggers. eg, Womanist Musings and Questioning Transphobia made it only various iterations of the Top 30 Feminist Blogs and deservedly so.

  40. There are actually some “Feminist Blogger” mailing lists, and I’m on one of them, but they’re mostly for call-outs for various issues or publications looking for minor exposure. I suppose that is intentional agenda-setting, but I don’t see a lot of ongoing conversation set up around their agendas. There was one spat on one of the lists that was particularly poisonous in which a blogger complained about was essentially termed the WOC blog wars, which was a large part in alienating the prominent WOC bloggers on the email list and led in part to some of the visible divisions today. It was gross and egregious, but I honestly can’t remember who was involved or what the specifics were.

  41. Finally, the number-one thing I use back channels for?–Blowing off steam and having a laugh. Sometimes things get to you and you want to be able to say so in a less-formal way than you might in a blog post. And in my case, anyway, I want what’s said to be funny. That requires a more relaxed, trusting environment than I’m going to get in even my own blog comments.

    This. I mean, it’s like, the difference between two or three people getting together for coffee, and having a big get together, at least as I think of it. Groups do tend to take on an energy of their own, which is something I’m just starting to learn about, the study of that; it’s fascinating shit, but I couldn’t begin to start talking about it articulately.

    Bringing it back to online and the ‘sphere and such–

    I mean the thing is, in my experience, there’ll always be backchannel one way or another. If it isn’t a formal list, it’s–even a one or two on one email backchannel email still can color the way things pan out in public. Especially if as often happens (irl too, this–am now thinking of other groups I’ve been in) there’s a “telephone” effect where A says something to B, and then a couple of days or weeks later B says something to C, you know–I just figure it’s pretty much always going to happen one way or another.

    I dunno. Some years ago I belonged to a virtual community of a few thousand people, which in itself was sometimes accused of being an elitist playground by other people (there was some cross-posting with a few public topics). Anyhoo, this VC had a lot of sub “conferences,” almost as many as there were actual members, based around topics–food, pets, politics, etc., you know. Besides the public conferences, there were a number of private ones, some whose names were listed (you could ask for entrance), some “invisible.”

    Every so often after a big implosion in one of the big confs, there’d be some meta about, well, it’s because people talk to each other in these private spaces and they all gang up, and–

    and there’d be the other piece of, well, 95% of the time yeah that sort of happens–it happens in public spaces as well, that phenomenon, but it’s not, like, a concerted effort; it’ll be like, people are chatting away and one person goes, hey, guys, look at this thread over here, can you -believe- this shit? and other people’ll go, no, where? and you’re off to the races. But I mean, and coming back to the feminist ‘sphere, that was happening in public as well. Does. I’m not honestly sure it makes that much difference to the dynamic where such things originate. And, again, there’s always emails and phone calls…

    also consider: lj, with the “locked” posts and the “friends-only” comms and the this and the that…

  42. Getting back to the whole idea of “meritocracy” as in “hierarchy,” and–well, there are some implict questions there that haven’t quite been teased out yet, it seems to me. Like: what do people really -want- when they say they want a “big blog?” Money? Fame? A desire to spread a particular message? Community? All of the above? Can all of these desires co-exist? Can they all be achieved with the same blog/project?

    Because it seems to me that one of the key things that keeps coming up with these particular blog thrashes–white feminists and WoC feminists/womanists, particularly, especially in the iterations we’ve had in my memory (the ones centering around Amanda and bfp, for instance)–there seems to be a fundamental disconnect in what the respective bloggers -really- want. I mean, this gets back to the question of “career” feminism and why it’s just actually sort of beside the point for a number of people because they have what’s clearly to them more important shit on their mind. Sometimes I get the impression that to certain Big Bloggers (among others), it never really quite computes that maybe not everyone -really- is as motivated by the desire for becoming a Star as they themselves are. I’m not sure why that is, but it appears to be the case. To me.

  43. I’m also on one of the “feminist blogger” lists, though as Lauren says it’s mostly call-outs. There are also a handful of people (literally two or three) who regularly use it for self-promotion, but they aren’t “big” feminist bloggers, and I’ve probably linked to their stuff three or four times in the past two years. There are also news articles which get sent out to the list, and I blog about those issues sometimes. (I’m actually looking back through my g-mail archives now to see what goes out on this list, because I end up deleting 75% of it). It’s rarely (never in my memory, but that’s not totally trustworthy…) “come get on this thread” or “everyone write about this.”

    As for other back channels, as we said before, the Feministe bloggers email and g-chat with each other, and I’ve met most of them in person (I haven’t met Cara or Jack or Kactus or our book reviewers, but some of that will be rectified at WAM this year). Most of the chatting is logistical, although I have definitely chatted and emailed about personal, non-blog-related stuff, because I also consider my co-bloggers to be friends (same with a handful of other feminist bloggers who I socialize with every few months). There have been a handful of times in my memory where a thread was going HORRIBLY and someone was being treated poorly, and there was an email sent out to say, “please help this person out” or “we need to moderate these comments more closely” — those emails go out amongst the Feministe bloggers especially during Guest Blogging season, when I’m often out of pocket for days at a time and can’t control the comments as tightly as usual. But again, that’s less about power-building and more about making sure our guests aren’t attacked and that we maintain control of this space. It’s also, as others have said, about blowing off steam. If a commenter is really annoying, I can g-chat Cara and bitch about it, or post the comment on Twitter for amuement, or email the whole team and we can have a good laugh and an eye-roll. Or when we were constructing this post, I could g-chat with Holly and ask her opinion, or Lauren could message me and talk through an issue. I think the most recent mass email I sent out was to about 10 bloggers who I knew were attending WAM; I needed a room mate and was hunting around for one, so I emailed people who I knew were going, off the top of my head.

    I’m also trying to remember how I saw the Mandy & Brittany post in the first place. I feel like it may have been in a comment section here — I know Mandy was promoting it pretty hard in blog comment sections. That’s another good way to get attention (see, for example, FOAM FLUFF in the other thread).

    I do see what you’re saying about social hierarchies, though. It is a lot harder to critique people you consider to be friends, and who you’ve met and socialized with in person. That is definitely an issue that I’ve had, and it’s particularly difficult when you have very loyalist tendencies and beliefs about friendships, as I do. It’s hard to call out your friends. It’s also been hard for me to be called out by people I consider friends — but I’ve had some incredibly kind and generous tough love from my co-bloggers and other feminist bloggers who have emailed me when I was being a fuck-up to say, again in an astonishingly kind way, that maybe I should reconsider the way I was behaving. I am very grateful for that, but yes, as you say, those kinds of back-end conversations do help to shape what goes up on the intertubes. I’m not sure that’s an entirely bad thing, though; at least not always.

    I also don’t doubt that part of the reason why I’ve been invited to speak on panels or participate in certain events is because I’ve met people in person, we got along, and connections were made. Feministe got a bunch of links when I went to Yearly Kos, because I met people in person and promoted the blog. Those things matter. Are they smokey-room “back channel” conversations? No. But they are reflections of relative power and access issues, and transparency about them is good. At the same time, sometimes blog-relationships evolve into actual friendships. For example, I dated a blogger for a decently long period of time. I met him at a conference, and while we sometimes linked to each other, it was extremely rare (I think he linked here one time while we were dating, and we had a policy of not reading each others’ blogs during the relationship). He was part of my “real life,” which I try to keep relatively private, and so I wasn’t about to announce it in this space (I even feel weird writing about it here now). So no, I didn’t disclose that relationship, even though he was a MUCH bigger power-broker in broader bloglandia than I’ve ever been. That’s where this stuff gets very tricky — for those of us who value our privacy in our real lives, there can some overlap with our blog-lives, and what you do with that can be a bit difficult. And when you value your online friends for blowing off steam — because most of my “real-life” friends don’t blog and don’t read blogs and certainly don’t want to hear about my blog — I do wonder how healthy it would be to demand full transparency all the time. Not because there’s necessarily shady stuff going on, but because I’m not convinced that private conversations — even about other bloggers and writers — are always a bad thing.

  44. That last bit came off snarkier than I honestly intended. I guess I’m always sort of–it’s not like I don’t get the desire for fame or recognition (much less money, which as noted, is really not that much on the table in this neck of the ‘sphere), believe me, I’m as ambitious as the next ambitious person who fancies herself a decent writer. It’s just–well, there’s other shit, too. And I think part of what’s been so frustrating about these various blowups is, it’s almost kind of worse when people who’re paying lip service to high minded ideals (community, ending racism, The Good Of All Womankind, etc) turn out to be, well, it sure -seems- like their motivations are considerably less noble and selfless. Or at least, all of their actions don’t seem to make sense if directed toward their stated goals, but rather more sense if the goal was something more like, “buy my book.”

    And the thing is, which is what I kept hearing especially, again, from bfp and others around one of those thrashes–here too, is: lookit, it’s not even that people give that much of a shit about the hypocrisy in itself, it’s, -stop using us as a prop in your personal climb to the Top.- It’s insulting and it actually makes it -harder- to do the actual work that needs to be done, because what’s a game for points for you is life or death for us, and now everyone’s associating our goals with you and your projects and ignoring our -actual- goals, erasing our -actual- selves and voices, and it’s just seven different kinds of fucked.

    …approximately.

  45. per Mandy and Brittany–I dunno about the first one, and it actually took me a long while to get around to reading it; but by the time the “apology” rolled around it seemed like EVERYONE in the damn sphere was talking about it; and in every thread that even tangentially touched on it, there was a trackback to their damn apology. even then though, I think I only finally went over there when someone (in backchannel, yes) said, Who the hell is this foam fluff person? they’ve been bugging me over at my spot; and then I noticed he’d “friended me” on my own blog, and then I saw him over at the apology and well, I got talkin’, and one thing led to another. Often how these things happen. I hear very peripherally about something through any -number- of ways, and I swear I’m not gonna look or respond but the next thing I know…

  46. (off of post 48 again)–or, well, yeah, what Lisa said in this very thread:

    But, here’s the thing, that’s not my interest.

    I. just. don’t. get. it.

    What matters to me is not how many readers I’ve got, but how well I’m working, how my writing is, whether I’m learning, and how clear my understanding is of a new concept or way of thinking/reasoning.

    This whole big blog vs. small blog thing…it’s weird. And then to add “hierarchy” sounds SO odd to me.

    I don’t measure blogs by their size. I measure it by my own arbitrary, works- and-applies-only-for-me litmus test as to whether I learn – really learn – from the posts and comments. Most, not all, of those experiences for me, like Lauren, happen on WOC blogs and sites.

    I began blogging to carve out a space for myself in the world, to have a small pocket with my writing, thoughts, and lessons. I don’t see it as big or small. I see it, more importantly, as mine. Authentically mine.

    (Don’t get me wrong. I admit that it’s wonderful when people read and comment on something you worked on for over a week. Let’s not be ridiculous. It’s awesome.)

    I mean, there’s “attention,” and there’s “status,” and there’s “community,” and it seems to me that these are all separate concepts, and “community” in particular requires a lot more reciprocal work than either of the other two.

  47. …and then there are also “concrete goals, as in activism.” I go back and forth a lot as to how efficacious I think online is for that, of itself, at least on a macro scale. I mean there are things like petitions and drives and such, and people network sometimes and end up working together irl, but…it depends what -kind- of activism, I guess, and what the goal is.

  48. Re: The Blogging Hierarchy – I’m kind of torn about this one. Blogging is subject to the same rules and ideas that happen in society, but there are also a lot of backdoors that still allow you to work around the boundaries set what you need to do. Someone can block you from being published in a print setting. But the blogosphere is different – you can always be heard. The most someone else can do is try to intimidate you into shutting your blog down (which, unfortunately, has happened to wonderful writers I know.) But even in the most horrific cases, you ultimately make the decision to shutter your own blog. So, I find the idea of a hierarchy alternately very true (especially in small circles like North American Feminist Blogging) and laughable (the internet is wide and vast and this is just one small corner.)

    @Jack –

    And as Jill writes above, their apology on this point didn’t really do it for me. I was not angry at Mandy and Brittany for “sticking up” for women of color; I was mad at them for SAYING RACIST PATERNALISTIC INSULTING BULLSHIT to and about women of color. Seriously, I’m not sure where the confusion lies there.

    Word.

    @Lisa –

    This whole big blog vs. small blog thing…it’s weird. And then to add “hierarchy” sounds SO odd to me.

    I don’t measure blogs by their size. I measure it by my own arbitrary, works- and-applies-only-for-me litmus test as to whether I learn – really learn – from the posts and comments. Most, not all, of those experiences for me, like Lauren, happen on WOC blogs and sites.

    I began blogging to carve out a space for myself in the world, to have a small pocket with my writing, thoughts, and lessons. I don’t see it as big or small. I see it, more importantly, as mine. Authentically mine.

    (Don’t get me wrong. I admit that it’s wonderful when people read and comment on something you worked on for over a week. Let’s not be ridiculous. It’s awesome.)

    Very true Lisa. But I also think it depends on how people started out blogging and what they intended to do. I’ve been around the blogosphere and on message boards since 1999 – but it was all personal stuff. I had a personal journal I maintained on line where I told stories to entertain my friends at work. That was the goal. When I started writing for Racialicious I had a specific purpose and idea in mind. And Racialicious never was anyone’s personal blog – it was always meant to be a tool for communication, even in it’s first incarnation as Mixed Media Watch. So there is a lot more gray area involved in when your *personal* blog becomes known than there is when your *professional* blog becomes known.

    I feel like sometimes, when having these conversations, we speak past each other because some people started blogging with the desire to be known professionally and some people started blogging to talk about ideas important to them. And while any reason for starting a blog is a good one, the changing nature of the blogosphere makes it difficult to just do your own thing without being exposed to the business aspects of it all.

    @Jill –
    Not because there’s necessarily shady stuff going on, but because I’m not convinced that private conversations — even about other bloggers and writers — are always a bad thing.

    I think that’s were some of the confusion around this concept is coming in, Jill.

    It’s kind of like what I was saying about the nature of networks.

    These private conversations aren’t bad things – I mean, ye gods, we aren’t allowed to make friends? But I notice that people don’t seem to understand exactly how casual this back-room stuff actually is. Which is why most people who are in it don’t think anything strange is happening.

    Here’s an example:

    Let’s say you and I go to WAM again. We meet up for drinks because I like your work and read it often. We talk. You mention you need a book deal. I’m like, oh, word? Come with me to this party, I know some people in publishing. You come with me to the party, I introduce you around, you walk out of there with an agent and a book deal. Score! Friend hook up.

    But if four of my friends get that same hook up, and other folks submitting proposals are getting the run around, and they look and see our book announcements, it looks like a back door deal. (Well, technically, a party back room deal, but whateves.)

    Normally, when these types of things are being offered to you, it’s “Sweet – someone’s doing me a favor!” But that isn’t always how that is perceived.

    Same deal with networks, in general. My friend called me and told me about something cool. She threw some work my way. But there are people who blog about similar things that I do but she doesn’t call them. Why is that? It could be anything from personal vendetta to just not liking someone’s personal style. And it’s not like we aren’t working to get our names out there. But some people will look at this and say “hmm…I’m working my ass off over here and I never got anything. How is this fair?”

    Part of it is the nature of publishing – people want what they want the way they want it. I had a friend ask me if I could send her copies of a successful pitch letter. And I said I would but it took me a couple days. She sent me an email reminder, cracking that pitch letters were like gold – no one wanted to part with one. (Apparently I was the third person she asked.) I wrote her back like, “Oh no – the hard part is finding the pitch that was accepted! I went through about 30 before I found one that was purchased.” If you don’t work in media/publishing, what have you, you may not know that rejection is the name of the game. It doesn’t matter why you were rejected – you just were. And you have to move on.

    Now, this is not to say there aren’t smoky back rooms. There are. When I went to Progressive Women’s Voices (a program by the women’s media center) I met a lot of intelligent, amazing women who are now in my network. And they are all experts in their fields, so they have a lot of experience with networks. My friend Lorelei told me about “the smoky back room of the internet” where the folks from all those political/beltway blogs get together and talk shop. They *know* they influence policy. And it is more or less a locked network – you have to know someone to be in.

    Is that creepy? Yeah. That group is homogeneous and they like it that way. And on some level, it’s kind of creepy that these folks do sway the ideas held by government officials. (Then again, I’ve lived in DC my whole life – it ain’t that strange.) Does this mean these types of groups need to be disbanded? Maybe. But I still feel like networks give rise to other ones. If it wasn’t the smoky back room of the internet, it’s be the smoky back room at that fucking expensive ass Steakhouse down town, or the drunken hook up parties at Smith Point, or someone’s kitchen.

    It is what it is.

    I tend to not think too much about closed networks though. Generally speaking, they are bad networks – if they are that closed and insular, infiltrating them just leads to more headaches for you. The best kind of networks are groups of people who care about you, nothing more. And you’ll find plenty of those out here in the sunshine.

  49. Since I originally raised the back-channel question, I want to thank all of you – Holly, Cara, Jill, and Lauren – and also Latoya for shedding light on how things work behind the scenes. I never really suspected that nefarious stuff was going down, but I’m much more sanguine about this having heard your different perspectives.

    Now I *am* creeped out by what Latoya said about the Beltway blogs, but I guess we can’t expect those guys to engage in this sort of open discussion!

    Also, on Daisy’s point about privilege (#27), I am really struck by how much privilege I enjoy to be near a computer for much of the day and be able to divvy up much of my work at my own pace (even if that often means working at night). I think I would qualify as “older” in this neck of the woods (over 40) but for me that’s very much mitigated by other sorts of privilege. I still have two young kids who makes lots of demands on me, but without my flexible job (and supportive partner) I probably wouldn’t be here at all.

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