Feminist Men

28 thoughts on Feminist Men

1. 1. A man can help end sexism by being aware of his own sexist tendencies and working to combat them. He can stop denying that he has any sexist tendencies–he can hardly help it, growing up in this society–and start noticing patterns of sexist behavior. Then he can change them.

   2. Yes. Man can have as much to say about gender as women. However, given the sort of training that men and women get from birth on, I would suggest that the first place a man ought to take in the feminist movement is in the audience: practice listening for a while.

   3. Why not? But again, men should be aware that they have been conditioned to think that they have to be leaders. All other things being equal, most men should probably allow themselves to be followers for once.

   4. Yes.

2. The fact that there is a group like that, and that Jim is even taking the time to ask such questions, makes me insanely happy. 🙂

3. i think dianne has it about right. i would add to #1: we can speak up in support of women. we can also find out how traditional gender roles restrict us. listening, as she suggests at #2, helps with this.

   about #3—as the grateful dead, mostly guys, said “those who would lead must follow.” IMHO the best way to start in any organization is at the bottom.

4. 1) Men need to not only take pains not to be sexist themselves but also call other men out on their sexism. Men need to make it clear to other men they know that they do not acknowledge that there should be male-only spaces where sexism is nutured. Male-only spaces should not be places where men reinforce hatred of women.

   My boyfriend and my father both worked in places where they are often in male-only enviroments and both have made it clear to me that sexism is reinforced repeatedly. My boyfriend, unlike my father, takes a very oppositional stance to sexism and calls his co-workers out when they make misogynist statements, with his usual good humor. I’m not saying he’s perfect or anything, but this behavior alone helps tear down sexism.

   2) Yes, some of my favorite feminists are men. I’m not fond of the “pro-feminist” label, since most men who I know who use it hide their unwillingness to take the fight to the streets. Still, I acknowledge that it is difficult for men to join and not re-enact sexist hierarchies in the movement, but I think it’s still more important that they take the label and the movement alongside women.

   3) Tough call. Leadership in feminism is not a hard and fast thing–the de-emphasizing of hierarchies makes this question too simple, I think. Someone like Barry at Alas, a Blog is a “leader”. I think that men can take leadership roles if they have talents that mean their leadership is especially useful–Feminist Blogs was started by a man who take a very democratic stance to his leadership, which is that he views the position of leader as service and mostly commits himself to programming work while never trying to control content.

   4) See my answer to #2. Many men are feminists and won’t take the label, and I wish more would.

5. 1. I agree with both Amanda and Dianne – realise their own sexist behaviours and change it but also highlight people around him who display this behaviour too.

   2. Definitely. I think it is quite ironic that for women to be accepted as equals in society, we have to play to the power structure that we are trying to change. If men actively try to remove the sexism from society, they will encourage other males to do so. I think to a certain extent, you could describe it as needing ‘insiders’ in the battle.

   3. This is really hard – my first thought is ‘No’ but any reason for it is in itself, me being sexist. I guess it depends on what peoples ideas of feminism are – whether it is ‘women’ centred or ‘gender’ centred. I guess it also depends on the actual organisation – for example, a male as a leader of a group such as Planned Parenthood. Maybe a similar analogy would be whether a ‘white’ person could be the leader of the various ‘black’ organisations that exist.

   4. Yes.

6. I would add that feminist men need to be less quick to dismiss “minor” cases of sexism. And be more willing to defer to women in discussions about what it is like to experience sexism.

   It’s all to easy for feminist men to see the world through their own un-sexist eyes, and sometimes that leads to ignoring or ascribing more benign motives to certain acts.

7. I don’t call my self a feminist; I can’t, I’m a man. But I’m pro-feminist. I believe in equality…period. You can do what I can and I can do what you can (within reason, let’s leave out the stupid biology argument about babies, etc.).

   There ARE differences between men and women. So WHAT! There’s difference between men and other men.

   Men should support equality. I like the one quote above about the boyfriend who calls out other guys on their sexism. I’d like to think I do that myself but I know I’m not perfect about it.

   Eqality means working fairly and equally with all, regardless of sex. I’ve been in male-only and mostly female-departments. And I’ve never had a problem in either environment. I’ve had male and female bosses…and no problems with either. I’ve known others, especially guys, who couldn’t handle the female bosses. That was their problem and a sympton of the whole problem.

   Because of our sex, I believe men should not lead the feminist movement. I know…that sounds sexist by itself. But we can be staunch supporters of the movement and try to lend credibility to the movement any way we can.

   One thing I think most men would be surprised about regarding the feminist movement: It actually helps men too! Equality is a neat thing; it removes the stereotypes for men just as much as it removes them for women. And I find that very refreshing!

8. …Feminist Blogs was started by a man who take a very democratic stance to his leadership, which is that he views the position of leader as service…

   This just caught my eye – “leadership as service” is a common theme in Promise Keepers-type groups, but it doesn’t make much sense in the strict hierarchical system those groups take as the only model for the family. I haven’t read much at Feminist Blogs, but I’m glad to hear of someone successfully facilitating without controlling.

9. Because of our sex, I believe men should not lead the feminist movement. I know…that sounds sexist by itself.

   yup, it sure does. Aside from trying to stop their own mysogynist actions and getting out of the way of empowered women, men should focus on deconstructing their own gender role box. Not in the gross man as primal-cave-man bs, but in a real and critical analysis that is sort of happening with Mens Studies.

   I think it’s difficult for men to be “feminists” because the most important aspect (to me) of a feminist mindset is self-empowerment. The idea that women are in need of assistance is kind of nauseating to me. Learned helplessness is a basic block to remove, and men’s “help” doesn’t actually help, but hurt that.

10. 1. What can men do to end sexism?

    Men need to acknowledge their own privileged status and make the decision to consciously avoid acting upon that privilege. For instance, if you are the only man in a group of women, spend most of your time listening and learning, not talking. In the reverse situation, nine times out of ten, the woman’s voice would neither be heard nor welcomed. Look at your own experiences and realize how they would be different if you were a woman. How many times is your word accepted without question? How many places do you inhabit comfortably that other people, without your privilege, would fear. Notice how often this occurs and discuss it with other men.

    2. Do men have a place in the feminist movement? If so, how do they fit in? If not, why?
    Of course. They fit in by supporting women’s efforts and by providing an example of a man who acts in non-sexist ways.

    3. Should men be leaders in feminist organizations?
    Of course not. One of the reasons we need feminist organizations is to support the rights of women to empowerment in a world where power is unevenly distributed. Our organizations may be one of the first places any women confronts power and learns how to handle it wisely. To turn that learning experience over to men would be to defeat one of the core purposes of our efforts.

    4. Can a man be a “feminist”?
    No. A man can support feminism, but only a woman can be a feminist.

    5. Please add any other thoughts or comments you have about the the subject of men and feminism.
    We are still a long way from equality on any level in this country, so I believe it is way too early to demand equal treatment for men in the feminist movement.

    This is one of the hardest issues to explain to anyone living in a privileged position: that it is not a question of everyone attaining your privileged position. In fact, we need to live in a world where nobody exercises that privilege over others. That means that each of us will have to cede some of our power.

    In fact, since inequality is so rampant on so many levels, each of us will have areas of our lives in which learning to cede privilege will be our greatest contributions to a more healthy society. So while some of us will have places where our privilege is favored (women in feminist movements), all of us will have to acknowledge our un-earned power in other environments (race, nationality, abilities, etc).

11. Re: Leadership as service–if you are helping someone do something they don’t know how to do, taking the lead is only natural. If I ask a man for help in putting something together and he helps me, he’s leading in that sense but mostly he’s helping me. It’s how our country’s leaders are supposed to see themselves.

12. We are still a long way from equality on any level in this country, so I believe it is way too early to demand equal treatment for men in the feminist movement.

    That’s true, and I agree, though I do wish there were a better way to share the robust body of intellectual and academic achievement that feminism has created than allowing men to put their ears up to the door.

13. 1. In most cases, doing their share of the cooking and cleaning would go a lot further than making philosophical pronouncements or signing up for mens’ co-counseling workshops.

    2. Prone! Oh, you said “place.” Approximately when Lauren was being born I worked as a fundraising canvasser for NOW-PAC. I was one of two men on a 12-person canvassing crew in San Francisco. People routinely told me they were giving twice what they would have because they were “soooooo thrilled to see a man working on women’s issues.” (I was a little uncomfortable with that for reasons you can probably imagine, but NOW got more money as a result.)

    3. I suppose if a majority of the people in that organization want him to be. Men should try to turn their own organizations into groups that advance feminist ideas.

    4. I was brought up to think that men who claimed the term “feminist” were just trying to horn in on one more part of the world we already pretty much own, like the guys who whned because they weren’t allowed in the front of some Take Back The Night marches. I recognize thoughts on this issue have changed some. I won’t claim the title for myself, but I’m not going to quibble if a woman calls me a feminist.

    5. Can white people be called “black separatists?”

14. What’s a Guy to Do?

    I’d love to hear more on this subject from Amanda and Ravenmn, given they are on opposite sides of the fence. This is one of those things where, as a guy, I would pretty much like to hear a consensus from women on what they think about it before really figuring out what to call myself, but no consensus seems readily available.

    I tend to agree with Amanda, because she at least has some reasons that aren’t simply definitional claims, but I’ve also heard some good reasons on the other side–i.e. women have a ‘right’ to the term feminist because of the oppression they have to endure, where men haven’t.

    I guess I’d want to ask you, Amanda, what would you suggest a man who runs into the other opinion say back?
    Ravenmn says:

    4. Can a man be a “feminist”?
    No. A man can support feminism, but only a woman can be a feminist.

    Amanda says:

    2) Yes, some of my favorite feminists are men. I’m not fond of the “pro-feminist” label, since most men who I know who use it hide their unwillingness to take the fight to the streets. Still, I acknowledge that it is difficult for men to join and not re-enact sexist hierarchies in the movement, but I think it’s still more important that they take the label and the movement alongside women.

15. Can white people be called “black separatists?”

    No more than men can create a “women-only space,” but I don’t get your analogy: man:feminism::white:black separatism. I guess it’s a convenient way to avoid the f-word, but do you really think white people can’t call themselves anti-racist or civil-rights supporters?

16. “Can white people be called “black separatists?””

    Sure, but “segregationist” is the more common term.

17. I don’t get your analogy: man:feminism::white:black separatism. I guess it’s a convenient way to avoid the f-word, but do you really think white people can’t call themselves anti-racist or civil-rights supporters?

    No. I admit it was an inexact allegory. Of course white folks can be anti-racist activists. A straight parallel there would be for men to call themselves anti-sexist activists. It depends how you define “feminism,” I suppose.

    I don’t apply the word to myself, but that’s not because I want to avoid the word or distance myself from the concept.

18. jpjeffrey wrote:

    I would pretty much like to hear a consensus from women on what they think about it before really figuring out what to call myself, but no consensus seems readily available.

    We feminists are notorious for having different opinions on a wide variety of issues. You may not want to wait as long as it might take for feminists to agree on any particular issue!

    I’ll give you my answer. It is along the lines of what I believe Chris Clark was saying in that “inexact allegory” to race.

    To me, a feminist is a woman who is using power in a way that changes the status quo in order to benefit all of society. She is a woman using power wisely and challenging male-based power assumptions.

    Since our society grants power to men automatically, I don’t see how a man expressing feminist power would be construed other than as a) a man expressing his “natural” power or b) a man usurping feminist power.

    OTOH, I’m not gonna slap a man upside the head for calling himself a feminist or for being called a feminist. But, feminist practice is much more obvious and tends to have a much greater effect when its is practiced by women.

19. as for question number 3, especially as it pertains to the women’s organizations so touted by a few in this thread, it’s definitely worth pointing out the existence of Richard Graham, founding member of NOW back in 1966. He served as one of the group’s first co-vice presidents, which I suppose makes him as good an example as any other of a man in a leadership position in a feminist organization.

20. I’m pretty much in Amanda’s boat with the answers. Women’s issues are human issues, and while women need to fight the battle we won’t get anywhere if we don’t convince men to do the same.

    For those of you who think that men have no place in feminism, what do you think of transmen and transwomen? What place, if any, do you think they have?

    And, Ravenmn, you said:

    I don’t see how a man expressing feminist power would be construed other than as a) a man expressing his “natural” power or b) a man usurping feminist power.

    What about the feminist power that comes from elevating traditionally “female” stances: the domestic labour, the caring professions, etc? Those who fight against compulsory gender roles, roles that have not only kept women in the “weaker” sphere but have forced men into the “stronger” one. A man who isn’t afraid to “act like a woman”, for instance, is expressing feminist power without usurping it from women while opposing the “natural” power he was given.

    I’m just trying to point out that, by drawing this “women on this side, men on that side” line we’re hurting not only those who don’t fit into traditional gender boundaries, but men and ourselves as well.

21. I guess I’d want to ask you, Amanda, what would you suggest a man who runs into the other opinion say back?

    Oh, this is a good place not to say anything. Lesson #1 for men who want to embrace the non-sexist life–it’s okay to not have an opinion once in awhile. 😉 Women have been doing it for centuries.

22. I appreciate the comments back, from both Amanda and Ravenmn. (By the way, doesn’t feministe have one of the best comments interfaces around? I love it. And, well, the commentors are good too–I’m not one to just value form over content…)

    Ravenmn:
    You helped me understand this a lot better when you noted:

    OTOH, I’m not gonna slap a man upside the head for calling himself a feminist or for being called a feminist. But, feminist practice is much more obvious and tends to have a much greater effect when its is practiced by women.

    I’m in complete agreement with you about the last part, no doubt about it, in my mind. But having been ‘slapped upside the head’–not literally–by other feminists for calling myself a feminist is what lead me to asking Amanda the question I asked of her. I’m curious…what would you call a man who actively relinquishes the power ‘automatically’ given to him by the culture of patriarchy, at least to the degree that this is possible? Seems to me fair to call men giving up such power feminist practice as well. Although, in the end, I’m not sure how much the labels mean, or mean to me. (Maybe too much?)

    Amanda:
    Thanks again for commenting–I know you’re a busy blogger, and who knows about the rest of your life. Are you saying, I wonder, that faced with somebody who complains that I call myself a feminist, I can simply not respond, not offer up my opinion about it?–or are you saying that you don’t care to respond to my question? Pardon my being dense, please–sometimes humor is hard to get in bloggish forms…and I’ve been known to miss sarcasm and the like from time to time.

    The reason I asked the question in the first place is that I want to respect what others want, but I also don’t want to shortchange myself.

23. In reference to comments by Tekanji and Textaisle above about how men can play valuable roles in the feminist movement, I agree that men have much to offer and nothing prevents them from fighting the feminist fight from a non-leadership position.

    One of the most important roles of a feminist organization is to allow women to express the benefits of feminist power to the broader world. This will not happen if men are in the power roles.

    This is where Chris’s racial analogy is apt: I wouldn’t give much credit to a Native American organization that had as its leader someone like myself, a direct descendent and beneficiary of white colonizers.

    The history of NOW is riddled with non-feminist practice including vicious homophobia and classism. Having a man in a leadership position is just another example of how woefully behind the feminist movement NOW was in the 60s through the mid-80s when I stopped keeping track of their many failures.

    I have no sense of their practice now. They used to be the perfect example of how not to further the feminist cause.

24. From Websters:
    Feminism:
    1) Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
    2)The movement organized around this belief.
    Feminist:
    1) A person whose beliefs and behavior are based on feminism.

    And in response to the original questions:
    1) Advocate, advocate advocate!!!
    2) Because the feminist movement is about equality, men have a very important role in it. There are instances where men need to fight for the rights that are being denied them, as well as the ones being denied their sisters (don’t think men can be victims of sexism? Talk to a male rape victim about how they were treated. Sexism hurts men too)
    3) If there is work to be done we shouldn’t squable over who has to do it based on their gender. If a man wants to head a feminist organization give him a pat on the back and ask what you can do to help instead of turning up your nose because a penis is in charge.
    4) See above definition.
    5) There were white abolitionists. There were male suffragists. There were white civil rights advocates. No movement ever got up and running solely on the backs of the oppressed (unless you are talking wars, which are really failed movements). As a white person me speaking out against racism lends credibility to the movement the same way that men speaking out against sexism does. It means that “those whiny blacks/women/gays” aren’t really whining if whites/men/straights are speaking up for them.

25. I would say that mostly I meant never be defensive with a woman who says that, because quibbling over this can sometimes come off as a privileged person pulling rank. If a woman tells you men can’t be feminists, simply don’t say anything or agree that you see her point of view.

26. Thanks for responding, Amanda…among my female feminist friends, your response acts as at least some sort of consensus.

    Having thought about this too much, I think, I recognize that there are better things (in my mind) to discuss, so when I run into this sort of thing, I’ll likely take your advice.

27. I am very disappointed with the quality of debate here. Sexist biase is so thick it obscures the purpose of the discussion: sexual equality. I, for one, am a long time supporter of full equality; racially, sexually, theologically, whatever. But the sex bias I have seen here is staggering to me.

    1. What can men do to end sexism? Act fairly in an unbiased and open manner with all people, regardless of sex, race etc. And denounce and confront bias where ever you encounter it.

    I really liked Chris Clarke’s comment that “doing their share of the cooking and cleaning would go a lot further than making philosophical pronouncements”. By breaking down these false gender roles we more fully share our life together.

    Most respondents, however, launch into sexist bigotry rather than answer usefully. “A man can help end sexism by being aware of his own sexist tendencies and working to combat them.” Dianne believes that all men are sexist and must actively recognize and combat this flaw in their character, but she only believes this because she is sexist too. Shouldn’t women also combat their own sexist baggage. Others like Elizajoey add, more helpfully, that men must confront sexism among their male peers as well. Too true but shouldn’t women also confront their own sexual bigotry? No body seems to even notice the inherent sexism in this discussion.

    “if you are the only man in a group of women, spend most of your time listening and learning, not talking. In the reverse situation, nine times out of ten, the woman’s voice would neither be heard nor welcomed.” So, according to Ravenmn, minorities should ‘shut up’ and ‘learn’ from the majority? Because she ‘believes’ women are not welcome to contribute to men’s discussions, she believes men should be ‘seen and not heard’ in women’s discourse. What kind of equality is that? But then she also defined a ‘feminist’ as, “a woman who is using power in a way that changes the status quo in order to benefit all of society. She is a woman using power wisely and challenging male-based power assumptions.” So, she at least bans men since she imagines feminism to be not pro-female as much as anti-male power. This opinion illustrates why I reject feminism as a sexist political movement, it is just female chauvanism, and why I use the term masculist to define a male proponent sexual equality. Too many women hide behind the feminist banner to protect their own sexist beliefs.

    2. Do men have a place in the feminist movement? Yes, only together can men and women can curb the sexual bias that has long divided us. Men, however, are dismissed or even attacked by many feminists due to solely to their sex. Men of conscience should openly and vocally support the sexual equality which most feminists seek. Attend marches, sign petitions and generally become active in the work of the movement.

    Amanda Marcotte says she’s “not fond of the “pro-feminist” label, since most men who I know who use it hide their unwillingness to take the fight to the streets.” I would suggest many men are willing to take the equality cause to the streets, it is the sexist bias inherent in feminism’s name which they can’t accept. I am a ‘masculist’, anyone who supports full sexual equality is, since as the charming Becky Dagley at archaeopteryx put it “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet (to be cliche)” I also call women (feminists) this as well … or maybe I should call them “pro-masculists”.

    3. Should men be leaders in feminist organizations? Would women let men be leaders for the feminist movement(as if it were indeed a single coherent organization)? If yes, then yes. If not then I advocate forming masculist organizations which actively pursue the goal of total sexual equality from the other side of the sexual divide. We’ll meet in the middle.

    I have been pondering leadership for a long time. I’m not seeking it for myself, but contemplating it more abstractly. Firstly, leaders too often imagine themselves to be superior, which is false. In a democratic society of equals this is directly contrary to that equality. Leaders are “leaders among equals”. It is a management function, not a noble title. Star trek style leader if you will. Everyone is an equal with an equal right to input ideas and concerns. A leader must recognize this and encourage it, rather than quashing it and dominating. But leaders must, for practical purposes, decide on action when time is crucial or when democratic debate has deadlocked. Leaders must lead by example.

    4. Can a man be a “feminist”? I’m with Jim H “I don’t call my self a feminist; I can’t, I’m a man. But I’m pro-feminist. I believe in equality…period.” Since women seem to shun the ‘equality movement’, prefering the sexual security of pro-woman feminism, I have decided to call male supporters of sexual equality, ‘masculists’. And since women often seem to take perverse pleasure in calling some men feminists, I see no problem calling women masculists, too. Maybe, when the sexist core of the feminist movement and the male-chauvanists lose a bit more of their bias, I hope to one day share a non-sexually biased movement of ‘equalists’ who strive for equality for ALL PEOPLE, period. A movement not based only on sex or race or anything else. I have long felt the sexual biase in feminism was an inherent hypocracy to their ideals of sexual equality, like an racial equality movement called ‘Caucasianism’ say.

    Tekanji put it brilliantly. “Women’s issues are human issues, and while women need to fight the battle we won’t get anywhere if we don’t convince men to do the same.” Sexual equality is a human right issue and excluding men either by ‘hiding behind’ the old sexist feminist label or by dissuading men from participation only weakens the cause. Making feminism a ‘womens-club’ only reduces the causes vital importance in the eyes of those who must yet be convinced.

    Amanda joked “Lesson #1 for men who want to embrace the non-sexist life–it’s okay to not have an opinion once in awhile. Women have been doing it for centuries.” – except this is more sexist noise further enforcing prejudice and intollerance. Women have never ceased to hold opinions on just about everything. Male dominated society may have generally dismissed or ridiculed their vies but this never stopped them. “Lesson #1 for PEOPLE who want to embrace the non-sexist life– everyone’s opinion is of equal importance” Amanda your fight is with sexist bigots, not ‘men’. If you insist on stereotyping and blaming historical men, and persecuting their modern ancestors(regardless of their actual opinions) you will only undermine the cause and risk losing their vital support. This isn’t about raising women up or knocking men down; it is about treating all people equally, fairly and decently.

    Thanks for listening.

28. I started to respond to nic, but it got so long I decided to just post a response (of sorts) on my own blog. I hope this isn’t too bad of form…

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