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Three Things to Annoy You Today

1. Octomom’s gift to the pro-life movement. First, don’t get me started on the term “octomom” (not just because it irritates me, but because crass jokes will ensue). Second, yes, this is Jill Stanek and she’s awful, but I still think she illustrates an important point: That when we start messing with the legality of what women can or can’t do with the reproductive systems,* we go down a bad path. I’ve steered clear of the octuplets drama because most of the conversations about it, even (perhaps especially) in feminist circles, have made me really uncomfortable. There are certainly issues of medical ethics involved, and I get the environmentalist arguments that having a lot of kids is not sustainable or “green.” But here’s the thing with freedoms and liberties: Sometimes, people are going to do things that they legally can do that you or I may believe to be foolish or irresponsible or embarrassing or unethical or wrong or crazy. Sometimes people are going to do things you don’t like. Sometimes people are going to do things that are very weird. The Nadya Suleman story is a story exactly because it’s highly unusual. What I find troubling about it is that it’s been turned into some Larger Commentary on the State of the American Uterati. It’s one woman who did one thing that a lot of people think was extremely odd and maybe also irresponsible. Wouldn’t be the first time. Except now she’s held up as the walking example of the Lazy Welfare Mom, eating all of our tax dollars. And the calls for laws about how many embryos you can implant, or regulations as to who can get IVF? Count me out. We all know what happens when you start regulating how and when women reproduce. We all know what happens when you say that only some women should be entitled to reproduce. I don’t disagree with the medical community regulating itself, and I don’t oppose the government stepping in where necessary. But I’m not comfortable with a law saying you can only implant so many embryos — especially when that law came about because a few legislators (who are probably not fertility doctors who understand the ins and outs of their practice) were mad that a woman has 14 kids. Jill Stanek’s column is a perfect example of where this will go: Limiting IVF based on a theory of embryonic personhood. Of course, Stanek also tosses it out there that infertility is caused by illicit sex, so… there you go.

2. The Saturday morning U.S. News poll: “If you had a choice of four daycare centers run separately by Michelle Obama, Sarah Palin, Hillary Clinton, and Nancy Pelosi, which would you choose for your kids?” I think that speaks for itself.

3. Republican Senator: HIV testing for pregnant moms rewards sexual promiscuity. I know every time I go out on the town, there’s a little voice in the back of my head reminding me, “Remember Jill, if you’re super promiscuous, you may be rewarded with an HIV test! Now get goin’ girl!” The bill is pretty straight-forward: It requires health care workers to test pregnant women for HIV (along with a host of other things), unless the pregnant women decline. The senator’s problem with it is this: Finding out you have HIV in time to prevent transmitting it to your child is a big ol’ cookie that Colorado is handing out to ungrateful whores.** Here’s his statement. To his credit, he does not use the word “whores”:

Thank you, Madam President. You know, this was a difficult bill for me. I voted yes in committee on it because of discussions surrounding the fact that — well, let me just basically say this, it basically modifies the communicable disease laws and it requires the health care providers to test pregnant women for HIV unless they opt out. And that’s basically, that’s the main part of this bill. I voted yes on it. I was a little bit troubled with my vote and was just wondering what was bothering me. I woke up the next morning — Thursday morning — at 5 a.m. and I wrestled with this bill for another hour from 5 to 6 and finally came to the conclusion I’m going to be a no vote on this. I’m trying to think through what the role of government is here. And I am not convinced that part of the role of government should be to protect individuals from the negative consequences of their actions.

Sexual promiscuity, we know, causes a lot of problems in our state, one of which, obviously, is the contraction of HIV. And we have other programs that deal with the negative consequences — we put up part of our high schools where we allow students maybe 13 years old who put their child in a small daycare center there.

We do things continually to remove the negative consequences that take place from poor behavior and unacceptable behavior, quite frankly, and I don’t think that’s the role of this body.

As a result of that I finally came to the conclusion I would have to be a no vote on this because this stems from sexual promiscuity for the most part, and I just can’t vote on this bill and I wanted to explain to this body why I was going to be a no vote on this.

_______________________
*Or their “octopussies,” perhaps? Sorry, can’t help it.
**If I ever start a rock band, it will be called Cookies for Ungrateful Whores.


40 thoughts on Three Things to Annoy You Today

  1. The Nadya Suleman story is a story exactly because it’s highly unusual.

    THANK YOU! I have been making that point over and over since the story broke, and sometimes I have felt like the lone voice on the mountaintop. There is not an epidemic of high-order multiples, or of women without incomes conceiving through IVF. We do not need new regulation to prevent these things, because they really don’t happen except once in damn near forever.

  2. Would someone please inform dear Senator Schultheis that HIV transmission has NOTHING to do with “promiscuity?” As far as sexual tranmission goes, more than one woman has contracted the damned virus on her wedding night (after a lifetime of “saving herself” for that special day). This legislation could save thousands of properly submissive housewives as well, Mr. Senator.

    AIDS ignorance: Annoying, and dangerous.

  3. I’m a little confused by the Repub senator in the third story. I thought they were all about saving the babies. Because I can’t help but be snide, I’m prompted to say that it must be his abstinence only “education” to blame for his lamentable lack of knowledge about reproduction. If babies come from storks, after all, they’re in no danger of vertical HIV transmission.

    And yes to Yolanda, above. The correlation drawn between “promiscuity” and disease transmission is simplistic at best.

  4. I totally agree that Suleman is coming in for unfair criticism. Plenty of men have children they can’t support, or don’t even intend to support, and they don’t make the news. Most of the Suleman-bashing I’ve seen is sexist, classist and racist.

    However, I do think the U.S. should have many more laws regulating artificial reproduction. Right now, it’s pretty much like the wild west. Much artificial reproduction is not just about the rights of the woman (or man), but intersects on the rights of other individuals. For example, many European countries are banning anonymous donation of eggs and sperm, because adult donor-conceived children have argued they have a right to know the identity of their mothers and fathers. Many European countries also regulate the number of embryos that can be implanted.

    Without government regulation, artificial reproduction is totally subject to market forces and capitalism. For example, the common practice of going to India to use Indian women as cheap surrogates. This is not just about the rights of an individual woman, as in abortion.

    Another example from the frontier… should regulations allow a 65-year-old woman to have a baby? The child would probably sit on her mother’s deathbed before she even graduates from high school.

  5. While I don’t believe that there should be any initiative to pull the reigns on women’s reproductive rights, I find it laughably incongruous that Nadya Suleman could have both IVF and government assistance.

    It’s like spending an afternoon shopping at the Hermès boutique and then heading down to the soup kitchen for a nice hot meal.

  6. qvd, you make a good point. And I don’t oppose a national conversation on reproductive technology — I’ve written about things ilke surrogacy quite a bit, and I do believe that there’s a lot of exploitation happening, and the potential for much more. My issue is using this one story to further the specific goal of limiting IVF, and turning Nadya Suleman into some sort of symbol of irresponsibile reproduction that needs to be regulated by law.

  7. I agree with that. Right now she’s at the center of a blamestorm, and it’s very ugly.

    On second thought, my last example was worded poorly. When I said, “should regulations allow a 65-year-old woman to have a baby?” I meant to say, “should regulations allow a doctor to intervene in order for a 65-year-old woman to have a baby?” I don’t believe in regulating individual reproductive rights, but the medical-industrial-complex intersecting with those rights can and should be regulated.

  8. Another example from the frontier… should regulations allow a 65-year-old woman to have a baby? The child would probably sit on her mother’s deathbed before she even graduates from high school.

    If the only issue is how many years the mother may have left based on her age group, then absolutely. My grandmother died when my mother was 12. Sometimes women with children die – it’s tragic, but not incomprehensible. Plus, a 65-year-old parent could easily live to be eighty-five or even ninety-five; the father of an acquaintance of mine is in his late nineties, and she’s in her mid-twenties. It’s not a politician’s place to decide whether to let a woman (whom s/he has, in all likelihood, never met) have a child based on her projected life span.

  9. Holy cow

    The state senator went on to say

    “What I’m hoping is that, yes, that person may have AIDS, have it seriously as a baby and when they grow up, but the mother will begin to feel guilt as a result of that,” he said. “The family will see the negative consequences of that promiscuity and it may make a number of people over the coming years begin to realize that there are negative consequences and maybe they should adjust their behavior.”

    Um. He wants babies to be HIV+ so people will stop being so promiscuous?

  10. Suleman has now been approached by the porn industry to make a film. I am particularly disgusted by this. Porn always comes calling when women are particularly vulnerable. Many women are forced to make the decision to perform in movies like this because we refuse to support them. After the shaming that this poor woman has undergone and the refusal of much support because she did not birth her children within patriarchal family many will be quick to attack her once again if she has to take this offer to feed her family. It disgusts me what truly limited options single mothers have in this society and yet we are always quick to refer to them as a drain. Hello parenting is hard work and who do people think are going to pay for the future social services if not for the children of this generation?

  11. As we all know, AIDS is god’s punishment for gay sex; I guess it is also god’s punishment for women’s promiscuity.

    Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity- Martin Luther King

  12. “We do not need new regulation to prevent these things, because they really don’t happen except once in damn near forever.”

    Not to mention that the logical consequence of bringing society around to the point where being childfree is a non-weird, totally acceptable option is more people taking that option. The practical consequence of available birth control and societal pressure to become a parent deliberately and after having prepared for it is people spacing generations out. Fewer people having babies and more people being more responsible when they do have babies means a lot more space to absorb the children of the odd person or couple who do want a ton of kids.

    Basically, one lady having sixteen kids is not a population-pressure issue when fourteen other couples feel like it’s okay for them to just have one child or eight other couples feel like it’s okay for them to be childfree. With the overwhelming trend being more education and more woman-controlled BC -> far, far fewer births, this doesn’t seem like it’s really an issue at an individual level.

  13. preying mantis-I’m not sure I’d agree with you that we’re there yet. I also have to say that 8 kids at once is a hugely different resource issue than 8 kids born to 8 families, or 8 kids born to the same family over time. none of that makes the decision mine, but I don’t think that just saying “well, some couples won’t have kids” should be the extent of the conversation on assisted reproduction. but moving on.
    the HIV testing-does this come with treatment as well? or are we just looking for ways to expand the CDCs list? A clinic still has to report a positive HIV test, correct? I don’t know, I can’t say I’m really in favor of forcing low income women to take a test for a condition that they may or may not be able to do anything about, and will definately get them stigmatized for life. It seems like a bad trade-off to me.

  14. Not to mention that the logical consequence of bringing society around to the point where being childfree is a non-weird, totally acceptable option is more people taking that option.

    Sorry to threadjack for a second but Jill (or Cara or anyone else), could we have an open thread about this please? I was just refused permanent BC (the essure procedure specifically) by my OB as well as another doctor I called because evidently I’m too stupid at 25 to know that I don’t want biological children. ever. I’ve been shaking in rage and frustration all morning and I don’t know what else I can do at this point.

  15. Thanks for offering an honest recap of what’s important about Nadya, rather than attacking her or supporting her personally. Whether you agree with what she did or not, its about reproductive invasion, poverty, etc… the BIGGER PICTURE!

    PS – I love your writing Jill.

  16. I find it wierd that no one is talking about the father’s responsibility in the decision for IVF and the embryos. Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the same man give sperm for all the children created by IVF. No one is saying he should have thought about the consequences of his actions or should have kept his pants on. He played a part or at the very least was complicit. Not only that but there are men out there who have just as many kids. We just don’t hear about it as much and no one talks about the need to regulate enact legislation to conrol them. I feel like the whole national conversation is lopsided.

  17. I don’t think it excuses the assumption that successful women would make good babysitters, but the current US News poll asks the same question about men:

    It’s been a long week and you’ve decided to have a date night. Who would you pick to babysit your kids?
    Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee
    Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani
    Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid
    President Barack Obama

    Current Poll: http://www.usnews.com/sections/news/washington-whispers/index.html

    Results of previous poll: http://www.usnews.com/polls/whod-run-the-best-daycare/results.html

    35.92% First lady Michelle Obama’s
    59.31% Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin’s
    2.59% Secretary of State Hillary Clinton’s
    2.17% House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s

  18. And we have other programs that deal with the negative consequences — we put up part of our high schools where we allow students maybe 13 years old who put their child in a small daycare center there.

    Yes, because god forbid that teenagers who got pregnant because they didn’t know how to properly use protection because of Republican-backed, abstinence-only education be allowed to finish their high school education. I mean, honestly, what is this world coming to?

    (Sorry; I know this wasn’t the point of the post, but as a teacher-in-training who has spent time in an alternative high school with really amazing, dedicated students who just happened to make use of one of those daycare centers, this particular bit really got to me.)

  19. 1. There are people who are pro-choice that just don’t agree with abortion in practice at all but will fight and march against any law that prohibits it. Instead of judging this woman, accept the fact that she made a decision that will have the hardest affect on HER and HER family and is none of anyone else’s business. Our tax dollars pay for far worse than abortions and and food stamps if you could really even call either one bad.

    2. Michelle all the way lol she’s in the area.

    3. HIV is the result of a lack of consistant condom use, rape, a lack of more vigilant testing, and drug use with dirty needles. You can snort crack, have anal sex with a different guy every 3 hours with an 8 hour sleep break and get a blood transfusion and if the blood has been tested (its negative) you are sure to never have unprotected sex (wear a condom male or female) and if you ever shoot up use sterile syringes you’re fine.

  20. To Phenicks, who said: “HIV is the result of a lack of consistant condom use, rape, a lack of more vigilant testing, and drug use with dirty needles.”

    There’s a lot more nuance. Putting the onus on people who engage in “negligent behaviors” (with the exception of rape, those on your list) overlooks the rampant social and structural barriers that facilitate continued HIV transmission.

    To kb, who said: “the HIV testing-does this come with treatment as well? or are we just looking for ways to expand the CDCs list? A clinic still has to report a positive HIV test, correct?”

    There’s no way to get into treatment if you don’t know you’re positive. State and federal government funds are used to help provide care for low-income individuals who cannot otherwise afford it. Agitate for more Ryan White Care Act funding or Drug Assistance Program funding; don’t assume that people sit around counting the number of positives just for the heck of it. And yes, HIV is a reportable disease, but data are reported to federal agencies on the agregate. Not all states collect the names – there’s confidential and anonymous testing. The collection of this data is used to determine the amount of federal AIDS funding which goes to a particular state or district.

    Also, one of the main points of having opt-out testing for pregnant women is to prevent HIV transmission to the infant by getting the mother on antiretroviral therapy. When it comes to HIV/AIDS care and prevention, it’s a first line defense.

  21. HIV can be transmitted from mother to child, and testing pregnant women for HIV can help them and their health care providers determine the best way to prevent that transmission. So, he’s basically saying, “More babies should die of AIDS because their moms are whores.”

    And this from someone who is probably “pro-life”.

  22. “I’ve been shaking in rage and frustration all morning and I don’t know what else I can do at this point.”

    I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this; it is indeed Grade A bullshit. Have you called your local PP clinic? They may be able to provide a list of local pro-choice docs or help out directly.

  23. nicole,
    What is the fathers responsibility? If the choice to have or not have the child is completely the womans (and I know we’re not there yet due to societal pressure and lack of resources/access to resources) what exactly can we do to the father? In this case he provided the sperm and had absolutely no control once that was done. The mother could have aborted all the fetuses if she so chose. How would we legislate responsibility for having of kids against a group who has no control over whether or not the kids are had? Once theyre here different story as far as support goes but I’m just not gettng it. Men have a responsibility to help prevent “unwanted” pregnancies? Hell yes. Once the woman is pregnant though it should be all her choice, with all the choice comes the responsibility no? I think thats why its so lopsided.

  24. I’m in shock.

    That’s the level of vocabulary and ability to explain an argument of a Senator?

    Seriously? An important elected personage wrote like that in an official statement? I pity the people of Colorado if he’s their best option.

  25. “We do not need new regulation to prevent these things, because they really don’t happen except once in damn near forever.”

    That’s where you’re wrong, Lucy, we need to panic massively about things that almost never happen, like school shootings, terrorist acts and octomums* and forget about things like black-on-black violence, police brutality and shared needles transmitting AIDS. Only by focusing on things we have no experience of can we impose our will on the rest of society without the need to think logically about what we’re doing.

    * Sure I’m putting multiple births in the same category as premeditated murder but we can’t afford to worry about that because WE HAVE TO THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

  26. I can’t say I’m really in favor of forcing low income women to take a test for a condition that they may or may not be able to do anything about, and will definately get them stigmatized for life. It seems like a bad trade-off to me.

    This is exactly the problem with this legislation. The Republican Senator is being a real asshat in his reasoning, but he is actually on the right side of voting on this bill. It is super important that informed consent be required in HIV testing, and testing of people (especially pregnant women) without meaningful consent is a dangerous precedent. It leads pretty naturally to legal/medical system that views certain people’s bodies as forfeit for the good of others… In such a system, you can guess which bodies are privileged.

    There is no reason why we can’t have universally offered HIV testing, with pre and post-test counseling and informed consent, and with a guarantee of treatment. Opt-out testing is not the way to go.

  27. Michael Price black on black violence is just as likely as white-on white violence. Because blacks are a much smaller number of the population than whites or hispanics the percentages are higher (ie in a group of two 1 makes 50% while in a group of 4 1 is only 25%) thus all the BS and hub bub.

  28. The thing that really angers me about the octuplets case is that a woman can apparently get the medical blessing to have 8 children at once, but my various doctors over the years have all repeatedly denied me an elective hysterectomy. Apparently, in order for a woman to be considered for permanent sterilization, she needs to already have multiple children. Because, otherwise, you know, she might regret it! After all, a woman’s greatest joy in life is shitting out babies! Naturally.

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