In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Saudi Cleric Defends Marriage of Preteen Girls

Cara

In defending the decision to refuse an annulment for the marriage of an 8-year-old girl to a 47-year-old man, Saudi Arabia’s top cleric had this to say:

“It is incorrect to say that it’s not permitted to marry off girls who are 15 and younger,” Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh, the kingdom’s grand mufti, said in remarks quoted Wednesday in the regional Al-Hayat newspaper. “A girl aged 10 or 12 can be married. Those who think she’s too young are wrong and they are being unfair to her.”

Indeed, how dare we assume that preteens don’t want to be sold and raped?

Some more back-story on this case:

In December, Saudi judge Sheikh Habib Abdallah al-Habib refused to annul the marriage of an 8-year-old girl to a 47-year-old man.

The judge rejected a petition from the girl’s mother, whose lawyer said the marriage was arranged by her father to settle a debt with “a close friend.” The judge required the girl’s husband to sign a pledge that he would not have sex with her until she reaches puberty.

Two things immediately come to mind:

First, puberty really may not be so far off for this little girl.  I, for example, developed breast buds around age 10, got my period by age 11, and was easily what you’d call sexually developed on a physical level (and being propositioned by grown men) by age 12.  I’ve heard stories of girls reaching puberty significantly younger than that, as well — and so even if we were for some ludicrous reason to put aside the question of whether meaningful consent is ever really possible in a situation where a girl is sold to a man at age 8, it seems strange to me that raping a girl at age 12 because she has hit puberty is considered to be incredibly better than raping her when she’s 8.  Well, okay, not “strange” — more like classic rape culture in action. Because if she looks like a grown woman, she must be able to consent (and therefore must consent), right?

Secondly, maybe, just maybe, if you need to require a man to sign a pledge saying that he won’t rape his child bride because she’s hasn’t even reached puberty — and just assume that he’ll keep it, no less — there’s a problem with allowing that marriage to go forward to begin with.

Al-Sheikh continued:

Al-Sheikh was asked during a lecture Monday about parents forcing their underage daughters to marry.

“We hear a lot in the media about the marriage of underage girls,” he said, according to the newspaper. “We should know that Shariah law has not brought injustice to women.”

Which is undoubtedly why the girl’s wishes and her mother’s word don’t matter one bit. And why other Saudi women are really pissed off and speaking out:

Wajeha al-Huwaider, co-founder of the Society of Defending Women’s Rights in Saudi Arabia, told CNN in December that achieving human rights in the kingdom means standing against those who want to “keep us backward and in the Dark Ages.”

She said the marriages cause girls to “lose their sense of security and safety. Also, it destroys their feeling of being loved and nurtured. It causes them a lifetime of psychological problems and severe depression.”

But hey, who cares what those uppity women think?  Clearly, not this guy.

Sometimes, there are no words for situations so horrific.

65 thoughts on Saudi Cleric Defends Marriage of Preteen Girls

  2. Islamically, he is accurate and in Saudi Arabia Islam is the law. The prophet married Aisha at 9 yrs old and all Muslims are encouraged to take him as a role model in their lives.

  3. Islamically, he is accurate and in Saudi Arabia Islam is the law. The prophet married Aisha at 9 yrs old and all Muslims are encouraged to take him as a role model in their lives.

    I fail to see your point. None of that makes any of this less wrong. Further, wouldn’t it be Biblically correct to say that there’s nothing wrong with giving your daughters to strangers for the purpose of rape? Holy books were written a long time ago and say a lot of fucked up shit, including that which is misogynistic. It’s still fucked up and misogynistic.

  6. Regardless of the interpretation of marriage, it is documented in the Holy Quran that the Prophet married Aisha at 9 or so years old. This is largely the basis of the minimum marriage age in Islamic countries.

  8. Age is one thing – but coercion in marriage is another.

    Islamonline is an icky website – I value my blood pressure too much to ever visit there any more.

  10. no, it’s documented in hadiths, not the quran, and her actual age is never mentioned.

    that said, there is nothing to excuse the saudis from even the islamic perspective, because women are not supposed to pay a dowry. they’re not something that can be traded.

  12. let’s stop with the robotic responses and engage in some critical reading here. you said that’s it is mentioned in the quran that aisha got married at 9 yrs old, and i said:

    a) it’s not in the quran, the marriage is mentioned in the hadith

    b) her age is never mentioned

    furthermore, in both of my posts here, i condemned the saudis for this.

    your outrage is pathetically misdirected right now.

  13. shoot, guess i got confused with the two sarahs. i still mantain that no one was defending the saudis here.

  15. Seriously, if it weren’t for oil, the Arabian peninsula wouldn’t be dominated by these guys. This kind of reactionary attitude was what got them kicked out of power for a short while…until we needed someone to buy oil from–and pliant besides.

  16. Saudi Arabia is the only country which holds elections where women can’t vote. (Kuwait gave women the vote in 2005.)

  18. Sara: Islamically, he is accurate and in Saudi Arabia Islam is the law. The prophet married Aisha at 9 yrs old and all Muslims are encouraged to take him as a role model in their lives

    Thank you Sara. It’s great that we have an expert in fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) here to explain to us that this Saudi cleric’s interpretation of Islam is accurate. (eyeroll) I’m sure you are aware that there are many different interpretations of Islam and no one correct interpretation, and that the Saudi ‘ulema (clergy) is incredibly unpopular amongst Muslims, both within and outside of Saudi Arabia. Using someone like this as an example of what Islam says is like using Jerry Falwell as a legitimate representative of Christianity.

    Aisha’s marriage to Muhammad at such a young age was not unusual in 7th century Arabia, nor most of the rest of the world at the time, including Europe. So rather than single out Muhammad as a pervert, it’s a lot more fair to say that the entire world had much less regard for consent and women’s rights 1400 years ago. By the way, toothbrushes hadn’t been invented back then, so Muhammad brushed his teeth with a twig. Despite being encouraged to emulate the life of the Prophet, most Muslims are perfectly fine with using toothbrushes. My point is that Muslims do not blindly enshrine the past as a model that must be followed without question. Muhammad married a child because at the time it was normal and acceptable to marry children, not because Islam encourages it; the majority of Muslims understand this, despite what any sexist idiot Saudi cleric might say.

    Regardless of the interpretation of marriage, it is documented in the Holy Quran that the Prophet married Aisha at 9 or so years old. This is largely the basis of the minimum marriage age in Islamic countries.

    As has been pointed it, there is nothing in the Qur’an about Muhammad’s marriage. And what countries are you talking about? Here are the minimum marriage ages for women in some “Islamic countries”: Algeria 18, Egypt 18, Libya 20, Morocco 18, Senegal 20, Somalia 16 with parental consent, Tunisia 17, Azerbaijan 17, Bangladesh 18, Indonesia 16 with parental consent, Palestine 18, Kyrgyzstan 18, Malaysia 18 with parental consent (21 otherwise), Uzbekistan 17, Turkey 17. These are older than in many US states.

    …But thanks for the “cultural context.”

  19. i guess i was the only one who took Sara’s comment as Islam-bashing, then? i thought she was mentioning that as a backhanded way to be like ‘look at those primitive muslims with their horrible evil religion’ (which tends to crop up so much in feminist comment threads). but i think i may have just read it wrong…

  21. @lorelei – No, you were not.

    Orientalism and colonialist attitudes are alive and well. I’ve seen people claim that Judaism and Islam are innately violent and misogynistic because they came out of the middle east. It’s the same rhetoric colonialists threw around about native and aboriginal people. Oh, they’re SAVAGE, they’re HEATHEN, they’re PRIMITIVE! Et cetera and so forth.

    Yeah, really a post-racist society.

    And that cleric is an ass.

    @Morningstar: you are awesome.

  22. Pingback: Beautiful Girls (Ghetto Style) | Ouhuho Blog

  23. i guess i was the only one who took Sara’s comment as Islam-bashing, then?

    Nope, that’s why I responded by pointing out severe misogynistic problems in the primary text of Western society’s most common and revered religion, Christianity.

  24. I’ve seen people claim that Judaism and Islam are innately violent and misogynistic because they came out of the middle east.

    LOL

    As opposed to Christianity, I guess. Which came out of the suburbs of Atlanta.

    I knows it. For reals.

    😀

    (Yeah, I’ve actually seen this claim about Judaism and Islam too. People, apparently, really are that stupid.)

  26. This is really really stupid. I wonder when their society will collapse because of this stupidity?

    In comparison, the US are enlightened. That’s saying much.

  27. I wasn’t really Islam bashing, I was pointing out that the ruling was in accordance with what Saudi Arabia considers the Holy Book. I am aware that Sunnis aren’t all of Muslims but they are around 80% or so of them and while Wahabism is a somewhat more extreme than the others most others are like Wahabism-lite. It isn’t for us to judge them I think. They have their reasons for heir codes and we shouldn’t impose western social models on them anymore than you would like them to impose those models on you.

  28. It isn’t for us to judge them I think. They have their reasons for heir codes and we shouldn’t impose western social models on them anymore than you would like them to impose those models on you.

    Is it not for us to stand in solidarity with the women from the same culture who are outraged by these practices? Is it imposing our social models to acknowledge their struggle and speak out with them against the human rights violation of rape? Social models change — our own have drastically and need to change a lot more — and people within those social models are desperate for them to change.

  30. It isn’t for us to judge them I think. They have their reasons for heir codes and we shouldn’t impose western social models on them anymore than you would like them to impose those models on you.

    Whether we like it or not, having any awareness of this kind of issue is going to include making a judgment and imposing a social model. You say it isn’t for us to judge them, but then in the very same idea you give tacit approval by disapproving of the objections others have stated. In your argument you include assumptions which make very definite moral judgments, the most significant of which is the assumption that the forces within the culture which have exercised dominance in the past and guided tradition are valid. The next major assumption you make is that the justifications for a certain moral code and orientation to the individual mandated by those centers of power are acceptable and valid. After that you assume that there are either not voices of dissent within this culture, or that outsiders ought not to lend support to those voices of dissent which are present. Finally, there is the deeper assumption (which itself is an imposition of a certain system of values) that cultures ought to be considered and judged as a whole rather than on the basis of individual feelings or requirements, that the group takes precedence over the individual and that the women in this culture must simply abide by the social demands of their group.

  31. You know, I lived in Saudi for 6 years, and even back then (in the 80s), there was opposition to child marriage and most educated people that I talked to dissaproved of it. So, Sara, you might want to look a bit deeper rather than just assuming that whatever a few clerics say represents public opinion. The clerics aren’t much loved in Saudi on the whole, and like the royal family they came to power in part because of outside interference.

    I’m really not buying the whole Star Trek golden rule approach Sara is taking here (and which I’ve heard people argue in all kinds of other contexts when it comes to sexism in the Middle East). Do we blindly support the authority of religious leaders in the West when they made sexist pronouncement? No, we support the reformers. I’m really not seeing why the Middle East should be an different. Assuming that it is different is racist imo.

  32. Pingback: Friday Links — January 23, 2009 « Muslimah Media Watch

  33. The narration about Aisha is in the hadiths and not Koran. In fact the hadiths has the same place is “Islam” as the Talmud has in Judaism. The Talmud went even further and said a Jew can marry a 3 year old and consumate the marriage later. Its wording is exactly like the hadith compiled in Bukhari where supposedly the prophet married her at 6 but consumated the marriage at nine. But of course nobody is allowed to talk about the Talmud or Judaism. Jesus condemned the Talmud and the Koran condemned the Talmud. Later Sunni/Shia secatarianist probably under influence of Judaism incorporated the hadiths alongside the Koran. The hadiths are a pretended traditions with heavy Zoroastrian, pagan and Talmudic influence.

    The Koran says it came to confirm the Toprah and Gospel but condemned the Talmud and the Christian Church and its trinity paganism.

    What does Koran say about Torah and Gospel:

    http://www.conflictingviews.com/religion/all-religions/koran-says-torah-gospel-not-corrupted-3324.html

  34. Is there nothing to be done to these monsters? Raping children under the institution of marriage (or women) can not be considered ” every country their way”. I personally, would love to see U.S attacking Saudi arabia, I dont think nothing could be worse than what is already going behind the walls in that country. Mothers, who desperately try to save their little girls, whose lives are so unbearable. suicides are increasing among Saudi arabian women. cant we do nothing? just pleas? How about more saudi men who step up to defend their womens rights? normal, intelligent men. are there none in saudi arabia?

  36. koranist:

    nice try to work the Jewish Conspiracy into a thread on the actions of (some) Wahabist Muslims. Yes, the Talmud and even the Torah have some disgusting things to say about women’s rights and marriage. And in certain cases ultra-Orthodox Judaism perpetuates them even today (agunah, kol isha, adultury, women in the workforce,etc). But a VASTLY smaller proportion of Jews today engage in these acts than Muslims today, and there is a vocal and ongoing reform process even among the Orthodox. In terms of nations and women’s rights—do you really want me to compare Israel on women’s rights to ANY Muslim nation? Anticipating your response–NO, I do not condone all of their actions towards the Palestinians, and NO, I don’t think that’s relevant to my point here.

    Eskandar: I lived in Morocco for a few years. You’re deluding yourself on the actual situations regarding underage marriage. While happily at least in principle it is illegal, in practice it happens quite frequently (less so than in the past). They also still inherit less than men, and can be divorced for not being virgins at marriage. Sexual harassment on the streets is disgustingly rampant, etc, etc.
    Tunisia is probably the best place for women in North Africa. Of course they’re arguably a worse place for people in general, being a police state.

  37. Also, the hadiths were incorporated later, yes–but it wasn’t some conspiracy or under the influence of Judaism. It was a natural and inevitable process as fiqh developed and the Qur’an did not have an obvious answer for everything. Hadith are always SECONDARY legal sources to the Quran al-Karim. The hadith on Aisha and her supposed adultury is special because it has so many excellent isnaad (chains of transmission). It also has some good things to tell us about women, fwiw.

    They are also very different from the Talmud in their legal development, focus, well err everything about them. The first Hadith were complied 3 or so generations after the death of the prophet and many good Muslims devoted their entire lives to gathering stories of Muhammed’s life with excellent isnaad. Later of course they had to try and sort out who was lying, a whole ‘lim unto itself.

  38. I don’t see how discussing the content of a religious text of one abrahamic religion in relation to another’s equals a conspiracy theory, he brought it up because theology was already brought into the discussion, I think that’s obvious.

  39. So…let me get this straight. Insisting that Islam only brought in the hadith under the influence of those pesky Jews, whose Talmud has just been denounced by everyone, is just bringing theology into the discussion? Also insisting that “you can’t talk about Judaism or the Talmud”?

    I find the “oh, but look, Judaism does it worse/too/first/oh wait they MADE us do it” excuse annoying whenever some atrocity against women is perpetuated in the name of Allah. No, he/she might not have meant it that way, and if so I’m sorry–but I’ve argued both sides of the issue with enough morons that I tend to recognize the early stages of the BS when I see it.

  40. Islam took some traditions from Judaism just as it did from Christianity (veiling is another example), others from Zoroastrianism, it’s a young religion compared to all of these so yes it’s hella relevant to mention that if we’re talking about the origins of hadith, considering that Judaism was the first abrahamic religion it would make sense to bring it up whether the subject was veiling, circumcision or eating pork I don’t see the problem with discussing that, it’s not about who does what now or which people is the most backwards.

  41. It’s specious because Koranist is wrong, ill informed, and making prejudiced statements. I think I covered that in my previous post.

    Why ARE the origins of hadith important, anyway? Why isn’t what’s important the fact that today they are being used to marry off children by misogynistic clerics? Do you really think that blaming the hadith on the Jews will change anything?

    Look, if you want to change the Islamic legal system from within then you will have to have different READINGS of hadith, but they aren’t just going to go away. And insisting that the Jews influenced the adoption of the hadith system is ludicious and representative of the same nutso conspiracy mania that had many people in Morocco insisting that George Bush was secretly Jewish.

    And fyi–they didn’t take veiling from the Christians.

  42. Also…you might want to click on the link they posted. I’m doubtful that Koranist is Muslim if he is denouncing the hadith, but there’s little doubt about his feelings re: the Talmud and the Jews.

  43. Also…you might want to click on the link they posted. I’m doubtful that Koranist is Muslim if he is denouncing the hadith, but there’s little doubt about his feelings re: the Talmud and the Jews.

    The primary source he cites is horrific, by the way. Revisionisthistory.com Here’s a quote: “Belief in the rabbinic dogma of the “Shoah” is the Vatican’s new criterion for qualifying as a shepherd of Christ’s flock.” Shoah being the Holocaust, of course.

  44. this conversation is giving me a headache. muhamad used the mosaic law in the early stages, up until he believed a new revelation came. that mosaic law is much harsher than the islamic law that came to be (see the punishment for adultery and apostacy), there is absolutely no denying the influence and the importance of this. stating that muhammad was influenced by judaism (he believed islam was a continuation of all previous religions) is not “conspiratorial” or anti-semitic. please. but to get back on topic, what wahhabis have done is prop those earlier hadiths, the ones where muhammad was enacting mosaic law, and prop those up as islamic law. that’s wahabbi 101.

  45. I was going by the content of the comment posted in this thread.
    I didn’t read either of the links I don’t have time to right now.

    Why ARE the origins of hadith important, anyway?
    Nobody’s saying they should be, but discussion about scripture was something that started at the first comment in this thread, not with Koranist.
    If your objection is to the links he posted, okay then, but that wasn’t clear from your original comment, which seemed to focus on how Judaism is practiced today compared to Muslim countries, which wasn’t even MENTIONED in Koranist’s comment. I was responding to that.

  46. OF COURSE he was influenced by Judaism. Islam was probably influenced more by Judaism than by any other religion at the early stages. There weren’t a lot of Christians around Mecca and Medina, but there were quite few Jewish tribes (he ended up expelling or killing most of them when his law conflicted with theirs, but that’s another story). That is very different from saying “Jesus condemned the Talmud and the Koran condemned the Talmud. Later Sunni/Shia secatarianist probably under influence of Judaism incorporated the hadiths alongside the Koran. The hadiths are a pretended traditions with heavy Zoroastrian, pagan and Talmudic influence.”

    And again, of course Wahabism reads the hadith the way it wants to. Islamic feminism is just begining to make very useful inroads into feminist readings of the hadith in the past few years. This will (hopefully) eventually reach Saudi.

    And sorry, no, I won’t get “back on topic” when you are defending someone who cites a Holocaust denier as his primary source.

  47. Nadia: no, he/she did not directly mention how Judaism is practiced today. However the argument goes like this:

    The Talmud is BAD.
    Jews influenced the adoption of the Hadith which is JUST LIKE THE TALMUD.
    The Koran is sunshine and light, and the only reason atrocities like the one in Saudi happen is because of the Hadith.
    Which was caused by the Jews.
    Ipso facto, Jews are bad.

  48. chava, i agree that koranist’s statements left much to be desired. i didn’t bother clicking on his link originally, and now that i have, i can see what set you off. i personally, know next to nothing about the talmud, and dislike when people cherry pick and take things out of context, so that doesn’t seem very cool of him.

    anyways, i thought there was some hesitation on admitting jewish influence on the hadith, so i wanted to clarify that.

    carry on

  49. The Talmud is BAD.
    Jews influenced the adoption of the Hadith which is JUST LIKE THE TALMUD.
    The Koran is sunshine and light, and the only reason atrocities like the one in Saudi happen is because of the Hadith.
    Which was caused by the Jews.
    Ipso facto, Jews are bad.

    I see what you mean now but if you find this so offensive then I’m sorry but I really can’t understand why you would make the inferiority of Arab culture the thrust of your argument in your original comment. And no I’m not saying it does not have its problems, but it seems irrelevant and unnecessary to bring it in.

  50. K, last comment here before I stop because I notice this post is old, so don’t want to distract..

    I get your point re: how the “main thrust” of my argument came across. Let me clarify a little. I was speaking specifically about women’s rights, not about culture as a whole. I’ve lived in, studied, and generally immersed myself more in Islam and “Arab” (a term I have some objections to btw) culture more than I have in Jewish or really any other culture than American.

    What I have pulled out of that is NOT that the cultures of Middle Eastern countries or their people are somehow overall inferior. However I do get very very tired of not being able to have a frank, non-condescending discussion with others in my field about women’s rights–without having to deal with a truckload of equivocation amounting to “well yours is not any better.” Or even, “yours is worse.” “Yours” is generally first American culture, and then Jewish culture, depending on who you are arguing with. After a lot of thought and study, yes, I feel like I can say that American culture does treat women as a whole better. NOT PERFECTLY, but better than say, Saudi or Morocco.

    Honestly, I was as offended by the smashing of the hadith as I was the smashing of the Talmud. I’ve read that Aisha hadith in Arabic, and its quite a bit more complicated than people try to make it out to be.

  51. There’s nothing inherently wrong with caring about women’s rights in those places but the necessity of comparing them to say, North America or Israel to get that point across, in the context of that particular argument is my problem. It’s like comparing the caste system and free-market capitalism, I won’t make an argument for the equivalency of either but that’s not the point. I think there’s problems lumping in Saudi law in the books, which is in a league of its own outside of maybe Qatar, with say rural Moroccan society (or rural Indian or rural Christian or animist communities) as a comparison point with Western urban societies that industrialized like 160 years ago. Or for that matter comparing Western urban Europe and rural/Eastern Europe etc(I remember distinctly that Kazakhstan and I think Malaysia ranked higher than some European countries on gender equality indexes). There’s just way more to it than that, but I won’t bore anyone going into arguments that have been done to death.

    Anyways, yes some people might deal with such generalizations by downplaying their own problems and overemphasizing others’, but I don’t think the answer should be to put theirs down either.

  52. Shrug…Morocco has made amazing advances for where it is coming from at the moment. And I used it as a specific example because I lived there. No, it isn’t eqiv. to Saudi (and I don’t think I said it was!). Saudi is, well, “special.”

    In general I try to stay away from the “we are better than you” crap. When I feel like the same old tired responses are being trotted out as excuses (whether it’s “this is all the Jews’ fault” or “this is all the Americans’ fault,” and “women in your country have it just as bad”), I occasionally give into the impulse to say “Actually, you know what, we don’t.”

    That said, Koranist wasn’t making that particular equivalency. He/she was only pointing out that the law in Saudi (and really all hadith law) is the fault of the Jews. So on the American vs Saudi front re: women’s rights I probably did jump the gun.

    I’m not really sure what the caste system and free market capitalism have to do with anything as an analogy. If you are trying to say that Islam and the history in each particular country must be accounted for and dealt with as its own specific, non-Western thought process to make any headway–then yes, I agree with you. I think I made that clear with what I said about Islamic feminism previously.

  53. Yeah I see where your impulse was coming from but it’s still difficult for me to not react to it, in any situation it’s not constructive even when the other person is being a dick, I don’t want to press the point because I think you understand where I’m coming from with this. The caste system thing was just an apples and oranges point, they’re both examples of inequalities, but it doesn’t make sense to me to go on about how one is superior than the other, they both exist and both suck for different reasons, that’s all I was getting at.

  55. There are many references in the Koran that comes not from the Torah or Gospel but from the Talmud. Like the story of how Abraham was thrown in fire but saved by God and how the Toor mountain was raised on top of the Israelites while they made the oath(covenant) with God and Moses. Gahanam, hellfire, is noweher to be found on the Torah but can be found in the Talmud. The Koran uses the term Gahanam many times. So not everything in the Talmud was condemed by the Koran. My intention was to clarify that when the Koran condemned the Israelites it was because of SOME of the excesses that exist in the Talmud. The Koran came to confirm the Torah and Gospel unlike Sunni/Shia sectarian claims. They want hadith to create Shariah law to impose themselves on everyone. Look at Iraq. That was my intention.

    But I can see its hard to talk about Jews because of anti semitism and the long history of Jewish persecution. But the Jews also live under denial that the Talmud created a mind frame that is hostile and isolationist and supremacist. But we are not allowed to talk about it.

    Also some here do not understand that the hadiths were compiled 2 to 3 centuries after Muhammad. It is wrong and not accurate to attribute the hadiths to him. Muhammad and his companions never left behind them any text but the Koran. The Koran, Torah and Gospel are God’s words and revelations, everything else is man made and fall under probability and gossip. Every sect in Islam has their own hadiths and each accuse the other of fabrication and lies.

  56. I think most people will not support child brides or pre-teen marriages.

    But there are reasons why in some muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia that child brides is allowed. There is also a reason behind the lack of outrage from other muslim countries in terms of scholarly condemnation or appeals against such laws. The root of this issue comes from hadith, which is not secondary to the Quran but considered integral. It is not a matter of choice. If you examine how muslims who for instance reject the entire notion of hadith basing their faith solely on the Quran (the conflict between Divine and non-divine sources) are percieved, treated and dismissed as being outside the fold of Islam, the importance of hadiths (Sunnah) becomes evident.

    Hadiths are divided into many catagories. Some are strong (“Authentic”) leaving no room for dispute or evasion, while others are weak but weak does not mean they can not be applied. It is a longer discussion. Bottomline is that there is a consensus on that muslims are to follow the Sunnah and the Sunnah is basically percieved to be the traditions of the prophet Muhammad. It is what he did or said in different situations. He is the best role model. But many hadiths in particular those strong, are considered depending on the issue, compulsory. This applies to the method of praying, the method of washing (wudu), how to get married, conscent, marital and intimate relations, the method of applying punishments like stoning for adultery etc.

    The hadith supporting and establishing Aisha’s age are of strong catagory. Their validity can not be denied without questioning every other sound hadith as well. This would clearly be inconvenient and less favoured for several reasons.

    Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
    ‘A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
    Narrated ‘Aisha:
    that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
    Narrated ‘Aisha:
    that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that ‘Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).” what you know of the Quran (by heart)’

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
    Narrated ‘Ursa:
    The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with ‘Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
    Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
    Narrated Hisham’s father:
    Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

    Sahih Bukhari 5.234
    Narrated Aisha:
    The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

    The hadiths supporting the age of Aisha as being 6 at the time of marriage and 9 when the consummation took place are many and considered authentic. Ther are not many bursts of outrage og the muslims countries calling for banning such practice as that in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Afganistan etc where the legal age is 9 or less. This is of course unfortunate but also highlights the issue of silent consent by mainstream “scholars” and experts and the reason underlying their predicament is evi´dent. This is why such practices are upheld. The struggle must come from within but when something is percieved to be prophetic traditition then it is not as easy.

    So although many muslims do object to such a practice calling it outdated and no longer applicable or even doubting its validity, the question remains. If one specific issue is to be questioned and the tradition rejected then this will open the gates to other traditions being questioned as well and then what is left. You could say this is also a problem relating to power nd control of the majority.

  57. I think what you guys are missing, is that up until fifty years ago, that same Grand Mufti did live in 7th century Arabia and his mother may have easily given birth to him when she was 11. Despite the political differences, the physical conditions were very similar. Vaccinations and macro-economics weren’t even mentioned in passing.

    The issue here isn’t about what is wrong with Saudi Arabias past, but how its people retain their identity while progressing into their very sudden (and probably frightening) future. Note that the details and considerations of the judgement are not given and that the personal circumstances are considered inconsequential. I’d agree if it was 21st century America. Yet for an orphan in the desert, the circumstances are hardly the same. No society is going to allow judges to exist that will undermine its interests. Lets not forget either that Muslim societies see the least amount of HIV infections in the developing world.

  58. The thing is, they view this as a totally different thing than you. In my place arranged marriage is the norm. Most people marry the person their parents choose. They dont feel they are oppressed becoz it is not viewed like that at all. In these Iran people’s point of view this is not a big deal at all. I know from personal experience that many girls will choose an ugly old rich guy over a poor good looking young man. It is natural. Girls look for security and guys look for sexually attractive partners. I dont generalize but that is true for many. You will have to take a survey among those women who got married off to rich old guys as kids and see how many see their experience as something bad which they dont want to happen to other girls. They may probably laugh if you say their sex was equal to rape. It is cultural gap thing. Since my culture is closer to this Arabian culture I can see where this cleric is coming from.

  59. Edited version.

    Ghulam Dawood, I think, what, you are seemingly missing, is that these clerics/”scholars” are not getting their inspiration from out of thin air or from culture. This is not just some arab costum. They are getting their legitimacy from the highly acknowledged traditions also known as the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad. We are talking about authentic traditions and as you know traditions have inspired/made compulsory to guide man/woman through various of aspects ranging from how to offer your salah (prayer) to the requirement of a guardian in order for a woman to get married. So what are you proposing? That we disregard traditions altogether? Or just the bits that seem disturbing? mind you, what you may find objectionable in light of modern times, is not nessecarily unappealing to many clerics or men in Middleeast, Asia, Africa.

    You propose that girls were supposedly more mature in those times than today is unfounded and unsubstantiated. That is just not true. And the traditions surrounding Aisha’s (6) marriage to the prophet Muhammad are clear and widely accepted that she was was playing with dolls and her swing. This does not exactly constitute mental or physical maturity which is required to enter a marriage with a man 5 times her age (53). So this has little to do with macro-economics and vaccinations (?).

    Not every muslim male marries or would even consider marrying a child bride. But to “brush it off” as being simply a costum of ancient times with out any relation to religion (in this case Islam), is just not true. By negating the problem will never be dealt with by its roots but simple superficially and the issue will resurface whenever the media picks up on it.

    It is worth noting that despite child brides occurring in Saudi Arabia, Afganistan, Yemen etc. you do not hear many clerics or “scholarS” condemn it. Why? Because they know that it is linked to Islam and by not acknowledging it, they would be rejecting something allowed in Islam.

    If you are a hadith rejector, then clearly this will have little bearing on you as an individual. But most muslims do believe the traditions/ahadith to be integral to understanding and practsing Islam. Sharia is the way to run the society. The path.

    That is why some muslim countries have a legal age of marriage between 6 years and 9 years. Some countries officially have 18 years for the legal age, but child brides are still occurring and the government doesn’t interfere. It is accepted albeit unofficially. It is even happning in the west among muslim communites although not widespread.

    Also worth noting is that Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh is not simply a cleric or sheikh, but a Mufti. A Mufti is about as high you can rank as far as religious authority is concerned. This would also strongly imply that the majority of those below him in rank agree. For the same reason you will not find many “scholars” who will argue the age of Aisha and thus the permission of child brides.

    Recently, as this thread also deals with, there was the case of an 8 year old girl who was refused divorce from her 40+ husband. The marriage was considered legal in accordance with Sharia. The case recieved much attention (internationally and from human rights organisations but not once from any muslims or clerics who sought to object to it or in any other way communicate their thoughts on the matter). The case was settle recently but no in court. Out of court and pressumably by some sort of payment for her freedom.

    So child brides in muslims communities are not a cultural thing only, but in fact religiously sanctioned. That is also why the voices of human rights workers and lawyers are conveniently overheard. That is why this will not be the first nor the last case. It is based on islamic traditions (also listed above) not culture.

    It is unclear how or why you would bring up the topic of HIV into the matter of child brides. But HIV also occurs in muslim communities but the difference is that in the West you would have access to sexual education and information and protection. But this does not really explain the occurance of child brides which is the topic at hand.

  60. Here in the UK preteens pregnancy is a huge problem that is increasing. Is it acceptable when it happens outside of marriage in Western society, yet wrong within marriage in Eastern society? Yes, excuses can be given for all cases, but so are human interpretations to heavenly scripts. Good or bad this depends on the person, doesn’t it? Rather than complain, tolerate differences and show by example!

  61. You can hardly compare the two, Jojo. What exactly do you mean by “Rather than complain, tolerate differences and show by example!” and who are you addressing? Maybe you should read the thread topic posted way on top.

    This thread refers to girls being sold by their father to a man who is old enough to be their grandfather, where the girls have no say, no choice. The money changes hands from “husband” to father. The girl is then officially stuck in a marriage where she has to entertain her husband sexually and considering the age of the “bride”, 8 years old, this is rape. There are no ifs and buts about this. Rape.

    Also nobody is obliged to “tolerate” things such as child brides and the complete and utter loss of rights in such a given situation. The girl can not divorce her husband and her mother has no saying because only mans/husbands/fathers/brothers voice will count. This should be objected and fought with all means possible.

    Comparing that with girls who engage in sex with their boyfriends or such, and become pregnant as a result hereof, is not only appalling but outlandish. It is mocking the essence of this thread. Uncomparable. Bizarre. It sounds more like a shift of focus to avoid the ugliness of the fate facing many little girls who should be playing with toys rather than fight in courts to avoid getting raped.

    There is a difference between being raped and having unprotected sex with a boyfriend. The difference being choice. But perhaps this is little importance to you. But to most other people this is horrible so people are complaining including the girls, their mothers, the local women rights supporters etc.

  62. Seriously, this again?

    Safiyah–um, yeah. You’re totally right. Thanks for citing al-Bukhari. But today this is a system of interpretation. If we wanted to, why couldn’t we read Aisha’s marriage as meritorious only for the Prophet, like we do some of those extra prayers? Or that the caution against polygamy is actually a prohibition, since no one could love and treat all his wives equally, except perhaps Muhammad.

    I said it a few months ago on this thread and I’ll say it again: Islamic feminism. Learn it, love it, live it. There is more room in the hadith for interpretation than people think.

  63. I know you are addressing Safiyah but wanted to offer my thoughts, chava.

    I think the reason that one can not read i.e. Aisha’s marriage as meritorious only for the prophet, because as you pressumably know, the prophets sayings and doings are seen as an example. So why deviate?

    But even if we did, then this could apply to basically everything in the hadith. It opens a door, where each man or woman could in fact interpret things as they please. There would not be consensus.

    The strongest argument just in the case at hand is that no “scholars”, “muftis” or the like have objected to what is happening in KSA. Why not surely if ther are other ways to interpret, this ought to be exploring that? Instead they remain silent because they agree. “Islamic feminism”, is not even acknowledged by mainstram muslims or many “scholars”, who view feminism as something western. You will also find that most will argue polygamy is a divine permission in the Koran. That is the mainstream opinion.

    You must admit that the type of interpretation you are striving towards is not exactly common or prevalent.

    On a different note, why are you referring to Safiyah as “um”?

  64. Haha–I wasn’t referring to her as “Um,” as in mother. It was a “ummm,” like, “hmmm.”

    It does open a door, and no, the interpretation is not prevalent. But I am not suggesting that everyone intrepret things as they please. I am suggesting that the Mufti has privilege, and he has an agenda, and neither of those are favorable to women. The direct *Koranic* statements of women’s equality are ignored in favor of the lessor authority of the Hadith. I am suggesting that for this to change, we need more women educated at a high level in fiqh, more women capable of giving legal opinions, etc. The same scene right now is playing out in Orthodox Judaism.

    I don’t have time right now, but Islamic feminism is slowly growing in places like Egypt. Yes unfotunatly the radicalization of Islam is setting women back because anything non traditional is seen as Western, and that gets taken out on women’s bodies.

    I don’t see why it not being prevalent means that it isn’t potentially a good option to strive for?

  65. Hah got ya!

    I did not mean that just because it is not prevalent, then it is not worth striving for. Au contraire. I am only saying the road is long, weary and change in islam not as speedy as that we have seen in Judaism or Christianity.

    Words like “secularism”, “reform”, “re-interpretation”, “islamic feminism” are not exactly welcomed with open arms. To put it mildly. Just see how the liberal/moderate muslims or Koran-only muslims or progressive muslims are persecuted everywhere and often called heretics/apostates/Kafirs. Problem.

    Also agree with what you rightly pointed out regarding the absence of female interpretators and “scholars”. Problem.

    The obvious mismatch between some Koranic verses and many hadiths. Problem.

    I don’t argue against that “islamic” feminism in various shapes and forms exists in many muslim countries. It does and is not all that new just more vocal now.

    But reinterpreting hadith and removing (assuming this is the case) divine rights from men (mostly) to only be limited to the Prophet, I don’t agree with. This is a longer discussion though. You perhaps view ahadith being seondary but for mainstream majority it is integral, which poses a far critical problem than any of them above. What you see as radical/islamist, is just religion to many. I think its unavoidable that people will interpret as they please. They do. Thats why you have sectarian differences.

    There is a power struggle going on. And the struggle must come from within.

    But we can go over that some other time as it is timeconsuming indeed.

    Interesting talking to you though.

Comments are currently closed.