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Justifying the world… with science!

Dear Readers: are you interested in joining the ongoing fight against Bad Science? If you are, then like me you’ll be grateful that Amanda has pointed out Scientific American’s takedown of “pop” evolutionary psychology, which is very instructive in how to take apart suspicious-smelling scientific findings.

Buller’s article is great reading, not least because he doesn’t pull punches in his logical dissection of pop-evo-psych’s logical failings. He lists four fallacies that really strike into the heart of what I’ve always found a little bit mind-boggling about this sub-field of psychology, as well as its predecessor, sociobiology. First, he points out that there are huge gaps in what we can know about the behavior of early humans — the bedrock that much of pop-evo-psych attempts to build upon, the idea that certain behaviors and predilections we observe today evolved somewhere in the divergence of humankind from the other apes.

In and of itself, this shouldn’t be a problem; a lot of scientific fields must cope with huge gaps in observable data and knowledge, and have changed radically when new discoveries are made. The real issue here is that the “pop” wing of evolutionary psychology seems to distinguish itself by filling in the gaps with “just-so stories” that explain fragments of data with modern “common sense” ideas about, for instance, what the normal roles of men and women are. Interpreting data and generating a hypothesis to fit the available evidence is part of any scientific endeavor, but I have to agree with a lot of the skepticism about this field. Some pop-evo-psych studies seem almost intentionally designed to confirm conventional beliefs about gender roles, to continue that example. This isn’t that surprising if you consider the fact that beliefs about gender are often deeply ingrained by our cultural background, and who’s doing all this interpreting and filling in the blanks? People who indeed have a cultural background, through no fault of their own. We ought to be somewhat suspicious of any bias in this direction — the direction that “confirms what we’ve always believed.”

This story from last year about how feminists killed off the neanderthals is a shining example; it even includes the pop-evo-psych obsession with Homo neanderthalensis. As is so often the case, “scientific journalism” is at fault for exaggerating and distorting a particular claim from a scientific paper — the claim that happens to be the most sensationalistic. However, you’ll have to pardon me if I’m skeptical of the idea that scientific authors are simply being taken advantage of, with no desire for media coverage of their work. Echidne delved a little deeper and found a typical explanation: a small amount of data is used to confabulate a hypothesis that just happens to provide moral support for traditional gender roles. In this case, according to the New York Times, it’s two things. First and most ridiculously, the skeletons of Neanderthal women are very robustly built, so much so that it “seems improbable” to the authors that they stayed at home to look after children — you know, because large hearty women are much more likely to want to go deer hunting. Second, there’s an absence of archaeological remains related to small-game foraging and clothing-making — the material evidence left behind by traditional female occupations in other Pleistocene Era groups that are thought to be our ancestors.

So there you have it. They’re big women and (so far) nobody has found evidence that they stayed at home to make clothes. Now the hypothesizing begins: well, the Neanderthals ate a lot of big-game meat, so the women were probably out helping with the hunt. We’ve found male Neanderthal skeletons with a lot of fractures, which were probably gotten during big-game hunting, so it was dangerous. Since it was dangerous, women probably got killed too, which is a really bad thing in a small population where you need as many women as possible to be popping out babies. Oh ho, that’s probably why they went extinct! At this point my forehead is bruised from pounding it against a desk. (There’s a more scientific takedown of this hypothesis here, pointing out that the original paper didn’t bother to try and test the idea at all.)

Buller’s first two fallacies are basically devoted to pointing out that we simply don’t and maybe can’t know enough about early human ancestors (and their cousins, like the Neanderthals) to make these kinds of hypotheses without inserting some wild leaps of faith. And by “faith” I mean “culturally ingrained beliefs about how the world works.” I find this kind of thing very disturbing in the scientific community, because it has the tendency to reify and naturalize behaviors that may have a much more transient socio-cultural nature into “facts of life” and “natural human behavior.” That’s an egregious misuse of science, even if it’s not all the scientists fault (we can blame journalists and Newt Gingrich and general misunderstanding of how science works too). It’s a political misuse of science that reinforces the status quo.

Buller’s third fallacy also plays into the picture: pop-evo-psych is obsessed with Pleistocene-era human ancestors and Neanderthals, in part because of the core assumption that this is where human beings diverged from animals. It’s not a terrible assumption to start with, but if you focus too much on it you end up ignoring two other major possibilities about the origins of human behavior:

  • it may be OLDER than this divergence, in other words behavior that we share in common with chimps, gorillas, and orangutangs;
  • it may be NEWER than this divergence, in other words behavior that has come about much more recently, either because of the tremendous plasticity of the human brain, related to evidence that shows that evolutionary changes could appear in human populations in as little as 500 years, or — shocker of shockers — as part of the more malleable and variable aspects of human culture, which we can see a tremendous variety in across time and geography.

The interesting thing about these alternatives is that they potentially take us towards some rather different conclusions. Buller points out that “infidelity” may not be a single evolutionary strategy that males evolved in order to maximize their breeding opportunities in a non-conscious calculus of “will I have more offspring if I stay in this stable paired relationship, or if I sow my wild oats?” Instead, it might result from a conflict of two different strategies, one from our chimpanzee heritage and one more recently developed socio-psychological tradition of pair-bonding. If you think about human behaviors in their partly-animal aspect, then of course one reaction is “well, we can overcome that animal nature and behave differently if it will result in a better, happier world for us.” We aren’t necessarily beholden to those impulses even if we know they exist, and it’s easier for us to separate them in part because they’re classified as “animal.” On the other hand, if you think about human behaviors as part of cultures that change with relative rapidity over the millennia, then of course there’s a lot of opportunity for change there as well.

Instead, the focus on Pleistocene human forebears seems aimed directly at answering the question of “why do we behave the way we do?” with origin-stories that explain why it’s natural for humans to behave in a certain way. Humans, not animals; biologically evolved, not cultural and shifting rapidly. This era of ancient prehistory is “when humans became human,” which is why so much science journalism interprets this stuff as just-so stories, the foundational myths that explain — and in explaining justify — why the world works the way it does. And you know what? I would rather not see science used this way, to create and bolster myths that prop up society. Isn’t that what we have religion for? (Ba-doom-chik!)

Buller’s last fallacy is about how pop-evo-psych correlates stories about ancient human forebears with psychological studies on modern humans. The big flaw here is that it simply isn’t clear in many situations whether a particular human behavior is a deeply rooted evolutionary adaptation that all humans share in common, or if it stems from a set of cultural beliefs, local in time and space. The study Buller focuses on has a number of alternate hypotheses that somehow don’t lead back towards “common sense” conclusions about how it’s natural and universally human for men to get mad about women’s sexual infidelities, but not the other way around.

It is unclear why Pop EP resists the idea that the sexes share the same emotional mechanism of jealousy and that attitudinal differences are a function of differences in the beliefs processed by the mechanism. According to Pop EP, many cultural differences stem from a common human nature responding to variable local conditions. Yet cultural differences are often more profound than the sex differences that Pop EP has transformed into sensational theory. If cultural variation can result from a common nature responding to dissimilar inputs, surely sex differences in attitudes and behavior can, too.

It’s really not such a stretch, and I would be surprised if many evolutionary psychologists didn’t agree. The real tension here is in how far some scientists are willing to stretch their claims in order to generate an “interesting” hypothesis, and how skeptical we really must be in looking at scientists’ cultural and political biases in how data is cobbled together and interpreted.

Of course, it wouldn’t be science if it wasn’t open to debate, falsifiability, and skepticism, so I’d be remiss if I didn’t include this link that collects various responses to Buller from the people he’s criticized and others who see him as an implacable foe to evolutionary psychology. I haven’t read Buller’s book, so I don’t know if the characterization of his work as indicting all evolutionary psychology as bunk science is accurate. That indictment certainly seems like it would be too strong, but it certainly seems to me that there’s plenty of reason to be doubtful of certain methods and biases in some scientific fields.


34 thoughts on Justifying the world… with science!

  1. Those feeling charitable may want to check out the rebuttals by evo psych scientists linked in the comments of the sci am article. Interestingly, the rebuttal to Buller’s book indicates that Buller holds a number of (imo) indefensible beliefs – that the brain is not modular, for a start. I have no idea whether or not the rebuttal is a fair summary of Buller’s book but from a quick skim seemed to me to leave the major criticisms in the article pretty untouched.

  2. Looking over the TOC at Evolutionary Psychology, I see one article on information processing and perceptual psychology amidst a large number of articles on social psychology, which we know is a complex mix of environmental and arguably innate preference factors. And that is symptomatic about what bothers me about evolutionary psychology as a field, rather than looking at that problem space of psychological problems where we have some very good evidence for evolved physical constraints on human cognition, it seems to be wading into the highly controversial realms of social psychology and sexual psychology. These areas are controversial because they are complex, chaotic and multi-factoral, and until you start isolating those individual sources of variance, you can’t even begin to start proposing evolutionary mechanisms.

  3. These areas are controversial because they are complex, chaotic and multi-factoral, and until you start isolating those individual sources of variance, you can’t even begin to start proposing evolutionary mechanisms.

    Thats kind of the problem with research in the field of psychology in general though, evolutionary psychology just suffers from the added problem that you’re working off virtually no data. Human behavior is complex and multi-factorial and you can’t really isolate individual sources of variance beyond the individual level if you want to have anything approaching meaning. On top of that researchers essentially ignore the fact that psychology, if it is a science at all, is preparadigmatic; the lack of a cohesive paradigm for understanding the context of data means that even people who seem to be talking about the same data sources are likely defining them in different ways. Finally the definitions used in much psychological research are, to put it mildly, shit. Biologists, chemists, physicists and the like deal with objective, easily observable items (there isn’t a whole lot of argument about what constitutes an oxygen molecule or what makes blood circulate in a mammal). Psychology doesn’t have that (quick, someone give me a definition for honor that will work cross culturally) so we use “operational definitions” instead. We pretend that what we’re talking about is hard data by over-simplifying what we study and then creating an imaginary, stable, predictable norm.

    The real stick for psychological research of any kind (and this garbage evo psych in specific) is that it generally isn’t science, it’s philosophy. Science needs to be both falsifiable and able to be replicated (which really means generalizable). Humanity is too diverse, unstable, and subjective to really be open to this kind of study at any level over the individual. Understanding the behavior of a single person demands an incredible amount of data and the ability to separate your own personal experience and biases from the experiences of others; how on earth do these researchers imagine they might understand an entire society from a few fragments of remains and assumptions about current social constructs?

  4. William: The counter argument is that all sciences when you look at real-world phenomena are mess, complex, chaotic and multi-factoral. My microbiology mentor confessed to me that microbiologists have an excellent understanding of how E. coli acts on an artificial chemical medium, but very little understanding of what actually goes on in the human gut or in a speck of dirt. (Especially now that new tools have found that we have only cultivated and identified a fraction of microbial biodiversity.)

    I disagree that this messiness means that psychology is less of a science than biology. We can reasonably argue, just as an example, that children of age 5 generally have problems with the kind of abstractions that are required for calculus for example. We can reasonably say that while we don’t fully understand language learning, we have pretty strong evidence that pre-verbal newborns are doing it. Quirks of information processing, perception and memory appear to be robust between people and across cultures.

  5. To go further than CBrachyrhynchos (cool name, what it’s from?), all science is ultimately natural philosophy. In all scientific fields, get to a low enough level and one has real trouble resolving what is and what isn’t. Psychology isn’t really any different than biology or physics except that it is easier to bullshit and that more people have a motive to bullshit on that topic.

    Take IQ and the whole Learning and Memory field in psychology. You’ve got a whole bunch of racists, religionists, and sexists who are heavily psychically invested in showing that people think and are smart in a certain way. Old crap refuses to die. For instance, the Nature vs Nurture contest has been over for a long time, and Nurture won. However, the entire metaphor is wrong, precisely because people are extra, extra, extra invested into a concept of innate nature (another way “souls” bedevil us). We can’t change it because developmental biology is such a young (and truly hard) field, with no attention grabbing metaphors to update the outdated good seed vs good care dynamic.

    It’s even harder when it’s about being on the defensive, when bad science is used to delay the day the inevitable measures must be taken. If one hangs out on theoildrum.com, one will inevitably see raiders from the planet of “Global Warming Does Not Exist” that swoop in, and present the latest bullshit from the global warming denialist industries. And it takes time, thought, and energy to defeat each one, with the full knowlege that they will just come back again with something else. Same with a certain sort of purist environmentalists that do nuke-hatin’. I sometimes wish that certain topics are off-limits at theoildrum.

    I think a big part of why we have this problem is the whole abyssmal attitude about learning science (science history) and math in this country. Too many people have only the barest familiarity with *anything* science, which makes it truly hard to convince anything like a majority of people that global warming is real because most people have to take someone’s word for it. Talking about how carbon dioxide absorbs and reflects light and heat really does require *some* familiarity with quantum mechanics, to understand it intuitively. There is also the difference between climate and weather, and there is the topic of complexity theory. We’re going around screaming about Climate change when that topic is absolutely, utterly alien to the average guy and trying to compete with inherently simpler “just so stories” by people who don’t want to “believe” in global warming…

    /rant

  6. Well, I wouldn’t argue that “nurture won.” I’d say that in spite of Pinker’s howling otherwise, more dynamic systems models came to the forefront in biology and then psychology.

  7. The counter argument is that all sciences when you look at real-world phenomena are mess, complex, chaotic and multi-factoral.

    But the hard sciences, ultimately, deal in observable phenomena and lend themselves to falsification. You can pin down a series of laboratory experiments to try to understand something about a bacteria because you know the bacteria is there, you know what a bacteria is, what it does, how it works (in at least a general sense). You can test the effects of various things and develop worthwhile controls. Even in the mess you have hard observable data that you can use as a starting point for empiricism. At the absolute bottom you can fall back and choose to study only things so gross that they can be explained with mathematics. Psychology is different because its really two very different fields stapled together for the sake of political and financial expediency. On the one side you have biologists and neurologists who are studying observable data like pyramidal cell growth and action potentials and long term potentiation. On the other side you have philosophers, a minority of which pretend to be scientists because theres more grants for science than for philosophy. One isn’t better than the other, but just because they are of equal value doesn’t mean they do the same thing.

    Psychology isn’t really any different than biology or physics except that it is easier to bullshit and that more people have a motive to bullshit on that topic.

    I’d disagree simply because the depth of knowledge in the natural sciences is so much greater than in psychology. Psychology is still a system without a dominant paradigm. Go to a professional school and you’ll see Rogerians teaching theory that is radically contrary to a legion of different kinds of Psychoanalysts and all of them teaming up to hold back the influence of the CBT and DBT faculty. These aren’t people who agree on some things but disagree on a few arcane or extremely technical points, these are people who disagree radically on just about everything. Yet, oddly enough, they all work about equally well out in the field. No one in biology talks seriously about bodily humors anymore because the theory had some grounding in objective data and could thus be falsified. Psychology is grounded in subjective data, putting it largely in the realm of philosophy and making it a somewhat different animal.

    I’d argue that most of the motivation to bullshit in psychology comes from the people trying their hardest to convince the world (themselves?) that psychology is a science. Theres a lot of money to be made, grants to be collected, and insurance companies to be billed if psychology is seen as a hard science. Corporations are more likely to pay money for a Tavistock conference if it has an air of scientific legitimacy, ad agencies are more likely to pay psychologists to study consumers if the psychologists offer data and graphs, insurance companies are more likely to pay a claim if you can point to an empirical study with lots of complicated statistics and three pages of references. Thats why the APA has lobbied so hard to use terms like “mental illness” (because if you tie yourself to medicine you can ride on it’s scientific coattails), thats why the boulder model became dominant in Ph.D. programs (because the grant trough is much longer for scientists than for philosophers), thats why the APA has embraced CBT and holds the copyright for the term “evidence based treatment.”

    Take IQ and the whole Learning and Memory field in psychology.

    I really try not to, but the psychiatrists keep complaining when I don’t put an FSIQ in my evals. 😉

    For instance, the Nature vs Nurture contest has been over for a long time, and Nurture won.

    I couldn’t agree more. However, I think you’d find that most psychology programs (be they scientist/practitioner or scholar/practitioner model programs) put a pretty heavy emphasis on that “biopsychosocial” model garbage, which essentially argues that the nature/nurture argument is a stalemate.

    Too many people have only the barest familiarity with *anything* science,

    I agree completely. My argument isn’t that science is worthless, but that psychology is essentially a humanity. I don’t really have much of a preference for apples versus oranges, but I can still tell the difference between them.

  8. Well, I wouldn’t argue that “nurture won.” I’d say that in spite of Pinker’s howling otherwise, more dynamic systems models came to the forefront in biology and then psychology.

    Jargon problem here, what do you mean by “dynamic?” I know that in psychology that generally references the psychodynamic movement (Freud’s structural theory, ego psych, object relations, self psych, etc) but I’m guessing from the context that you mean something different.

  9. But the hard sciences, ultimately, deal in observable phenomena and lend themselves to falsification.

    Human behavior is an observable phenomena which can be falsified, just like the behavior of geological land masses and stars, neither of which can be abstracted into a laboratory setting.

    No one in biology talks seriously about bodily humors anymore because the theory had some grounding in objective data and could thus be falsified. Psychology is grounded in subjective data, putting it largely in the realm of philosophy and making it a somewhat different animal.

    Well actually, have you actually read Origin of the Species? It’s pretty much all qualitative case study work. Seriously, I come from the hard sciences, and there is no lack of qualitative case studies built on triangulated subjective assessments. The argument that the sciences as a whole have a subjectivity problem is better than the argument that there exists some magical difference that makes biological identification of species objective, and psychological tests subjective.

    I’d argue that most of the motivation to bullshit in psychology comes from the people trying their hardest to convince the world (themselves?) that psychology is a science.

    Well, that’s because it is a science. It uses the exact came scientific method, the exact same study designs, and exactly the same sources of evidence as biology, astronomy, and physics.

    Jargon problem here, what do you mean by “dynamic?” I know that in psychology that generally references the psychodynamic movement (Freud’s structural theory, ego psych, object relations, self psych, etc) but I’m guessing from the context that you mean something different.

    Do people still study Freud outside of literary studies?

    But dynamic in the sense that genes just don’t sit there in an organism, they are activated and deactivated by environmental signals and organism behavior. So just as an example, children are primed to learn a language from birth. By age five, they’ve mastered the basics of their native grammar and expressive phonemes at the cost of other grammars and phonemes. In fact, children who grow up in a pidgin environment appear to spontaneously develop a creole grammar. After age five learning new grammars is considerably more difficult. (And I think there is some physical evidence that we process additional languages in a very different way.)

    It’s a process that makes sense if you consider that both the behavior and the brain structures that support the behavior grow in tandem.

  10. Human behavior is an observable phenomena which can be falsified, just like the behavior of geological land masses and stars, neither of which can be abstracted into a laboratory setting.

    The difference, as I see it, comes in the operational definitions. If you’re looking at the growth of a bean plant measurement is pretty easy: you measure it every X days with the same system of measurement everyone else uses. When you write a paper and talk about growth, everyone who reads it knows what you mean by “growth,” what scale you’re using, and what a relative difference means. 10 millimeters means the same thing anywhere you go and translates pretty well. It is somewhat more difficult to develop an operational definition or measure something like “hope” or “intelligence” or even “working memory.” If I give a WAIS-III test tomorrow and begin talking about a patient’s “working memory” what I’m really talking about is that client’s performance on three short tests, one of which has a very significant cultural component, on one occasion. The concept we’re talking about there (“working memory”) is significantly more alienated from how we define and measure it than “growth” is.

    Well actually, have you actually read Origin of the Species? It’s pretty much all qualitative case study work. Seriously, I come from the hard sciences, and there is no lack of qualitative case studies built on triangulated subjective assessments.

    Yes, but when the hard sciences do subjective assessment, they tend to identify it as such. If a biologist does a qualitative study and tries to disguise it as a quantitative study its considered bad form and they’ll likely catch hell from their peers. If a psychologist does a qualitative study and doesn’t try to disguise it as an objective, quantitative study their chance of actually getting published in an APA journal drops like a stone.

    The argument that the sciences as a whole have a subjectivity problem is better than the argument that there exists some magical difference that makes biological identification of species objective, and psychological tests subjective.

    I’m not arguing that psychology somehow sits below the hard sciences because of some academic hierarchy, and I don’t think that subjectivity is a problem. My beef is with the deceit that is present in all sciences but actively encouraged in the psychological community. Subjective research can be incredibly valuable, hell, much of the best theory that drives quantitative research in the hard sciences comes from a purely subjective base (physics is a good example). I’m certainly not trying to put objective research on higher ground than subjective, I’m simply saying that when people try to pass the subjective as objective they’re hiding something (generally a fairly weak subjective argument).

    Well, that’s because it is a science. It uses the exact came scientific method, the exact same study designs, and exactly the same sources of evidence as biology, astronomy, and physics.

    What definition of science are we using? I know that within the psychological community we’re still arguing (violently) about whether or not we’re a science. I obviously have a bias, but my criticism of your definition would come down to the sources of evidence. As I mentioned above, the hard sciences tend to use as measurement things which can be easily described within a given paradigm and use fairly objective means of measuring those things. In psychology we don’t, we can’t, do things in that way because the factors we study do not lend themselves to objective definition. Affect does not displace water, individuation cannot be measured with a ruler, and human experience doesn’t register under even the most sensitive of instruments. Even behavior cannot be well measured because there is simply too much that is idiosyncratic to be able to generalize observations in a manner which would allow quantitative study. That has lead psychology to have very good qualitative research and very poor quantitative research.

    Theres nothing wrong with being subjective. The fact that you cannot subject Kant and Nietzsche to empirical study to determine which is “better” doesn’t determine which is of higher quality. Even if one were to design a study that seemed to do so they would be missing the point. Empiricism ultimately comes down to math, and not everything can be studied with math. Show me an equation which proves the beauty of a poem or a model which explains why I am moved by Charles Mingus but not Kenny G.

    Do people still study Freud outside of literary studies?

    In the same way some still study Darwin. There was a lot wrong with Freud’s theories, but there was a lot right as well. At the very least his theories inspired nearly a century of research and discussion, opposing and complimentary theories, re-imaginings and re-tooling. There are still a lot of Freudian analysts and a huge number of therapists who have been in some way influenced by his writings.

    But dynamic in the sense that genes just don’t sit there in an organism, they are activated and deactivated by environmental signals and organism behavior.

    Ahh, thanks for the clarification.

  11. I’d argue that most of the motivation to bullshit in psychology comes from the people trying their hardest to convince the world (themselves?) that psychology is a science.

    Sounds similar to my grad student friends’ rants about people in the economics, political science, and other social science fields…….

  12. “Do people still study Freud outside of literary studies?”

    “In the same way some still study Darwin.”

    I wouldn’t say it’s the same. In my experience, Freud is more a part of historical psychology than anything else. His theories are taught in contrast to more recent theories but I’ve heard so many times that there isn’t much basis or particularly not much scientific evidence for his theories.

    Darwin, on the other hand, seems like the base of learning about evolution as we see it today. We use what he found out.

    Yes, psychology has different perspectives but when looking into one psychological discipline such as social psychology, the theories seem more consistent with each other.

  13. “I haven’t read Buller’s book, so I don’t know if the characterization of his work as indicting all evolutionary psychology as bunk science is accurate.”

    I’ve read the book (Adapting Minds). Buller distinguishes between (capitalized) Evolutionary Psychology, referring to the school of Cosmides, Tooby, Buss, Pinker, et al. (and presumably isomorphic to the “Pop EP” of the SciAm article), and evolutionary psychology, referring to the study of human psychology from an evolutionary perspective. Buller endorses the latter as an important endeavor, but contends that the purveyors of the former are doing it utterly, horribly wrong.

    The distinction seems kind of chimerical at times. For example, in chapter six, (capitalized) EP is credited with the view that male parental investment evolved due to natural selection, facing males with the adaptive problem of ensuring paternity certainty. Whereas Kristen Hawkes et al. say, no, the math on that doesn’t check out; rather, male parental investment evolved due to sexual selection by female choice of males who were willing to provide parental care, which was beneficial to said males because it offers them future paternity opportunities, and thus, male parental investment is actually an indirect form of mating effort, rather than pure parenting effort.

    (This seems like a good point to insert the standard disclaimer that world like beneficial here are just convenient shorthand “tending to increase the frequency of the alleles of the organism in question” and have nothing to do with the actual desires of the organism itself.)

    Just looking at the hypotheses themselves and ignoring which researchers are part of which academic clique, it’s not clear to me why the paternity uncertainty hypothesis is part of (capitalized) EP, whereas the mating effort hypothesis is not.

    And Buller attacks a pretty egregious strawperson in the last chapter when he makes a detailed philosophical argument that there can be no such thing as “human nature”–rather, the best psychology can hope for is “richly detailed discriptions of human minds” for a particular period of evolutionary time. Which only leaves the reader wondering for herself what else any non-straw Evolutionary Psychologist ever promised.

  14. . In my experience, Freud is more a part of historical psychology than anything else. His theories are taught in contrast to more recent theories but I’ve heard so many times that there isn’t much basis or particularly not much scientific evidence for his theories.

    In the academic world and at the undergraduate level, Freud is pretty much absent.

    I can say from experience that in advanced degree clinical psychology programs (especially PsyD programs) Freud is still commonly read and taught. In the professional schools which follow the scholar/practitioner model it’s almost a guarantee that at some point over a doctoral program you’ll encounter Freud. If you’re studying any of the psychodynamic theories (which are still pretty dominant in the clinical world) you are going to study Freudian structural theory and the closely related ego psychology developed by his immediate successors at some point. The underlying theory that Freud had to offer is more than historical, in the field of actual clinical work his theories about the unconscious and about social process have essentially defined the discussion. The thing about Freud is that, while a great deal of his theories and assertions have been debunked, they’ve often been debunked by other analysts who were refining his process.

    For some reason a lot of people in America think of Freudian theory as set in stone. Freud was certainly dogmatic, and American psychiatrists were disgustingly rigid, but Freudian theory has been reworked and reimagined by various scholars pretty much from the beginning. Carl Jung, Anna Freud, Otto Rank, Alfred Adler, Melanie Klein and the British object relations theorists, Harry Stack Sullivan, Heinz Kohut, and many others used Freud as a base on which to build what is still today a very active theoretical orientation.

    The objection about science is largely one that you hear from academics, and there is a vested interest there. Academic psychologists tend to dislike psychodynamic and humanistic orientations because they’re “unscientific,” which is true but missing the point. Still, you hear the argument a lot in universities because the professors teaching psychology classes tend to think of themselves as scientists and likely haven’t actually seen a patient since their internship ended. As a result they look askance at the people who are still using a couch or reading Carl Rogers because its damn hard to design a study to examine depth psychology.

    The real problem, to my mind, is that we call too much “psychology.” Physics and engineering have a significant amount of overlap but they are not interchangeable disciplines. While a linguist and and English literature professor might have a passion for the English language and how words are used, they aren’t really doing the same thing (even if, on paper, they might appear very similar). For some reason both a scientist studying rats in a maze and an analyst with a patient on a couch are both seen as doing “Psychology.” The values, goals, methods, and worldviews of clinical and academic psychology are radically different, yet we still act is if they were slightly different branches of the same discipline.

  15. There’s more than i want to take the time to say here-post supper and pre running.Certainly ,psychology is a science.It’s not as quantitative as physics,and not as predictive,but tha’s because it’s harder.An interesting study cites the less intellectually challenging majors-both subjectively and in terms of SAT-tend to be more Democrat in terms of voting.A word about hard sciences;the hallmark is reproduciblity.I recall an UG acquaintance who received an endowed chair and then lost it for falsification.And a comment about Freud.Critiquing him for his failures is a bit like slamming Newton for not
    predicting the problem of Mercury’s progression in its orbit.(It’s technical.)
    Finally,I’m amused by people who people like William who is making the caveats about the WAIS.Remember ,my point about reproducibility?Psychology is in the awkward position of having to explain why IQ doesn’t exist/is flexible/is unrelated to intelligence,etc.In the recent past both the president of harvard and James Watson have lost their positions for talking of the Emperor’s clothes.
    to the readersTHINK.

  16. Finally,I’m amused by people who people like William who is making the caveats about the WAIS.Remember ,my point about reproducibility?Psychology is in the awkward position of having to explain why IQ doesn’t exist/is flexible/is unrelated to intelligence,etc.In the recent past both the president of harvard and James Watson have lost their positions for talking of the Emperor’s clothes.
    to the readersTHINK.

    Be as amused as you would like, Corwin, but the WAIS is a shitty test that is so riddled with cultural bias that it is essentially useless. I did an eval recently for a man in an inpatient facility who was able to have an in depth conversation about symbolism in the work of Ingmar Bergman but who ended up with a FSIQ in the low 60s (with comparable Index Scores). Give him the test again in a year and he’ll have a similar score. He’s an extreme case, but he is also a good example of the problems with the WAIS. Intelligence is too complex a thing to be measured in any meaningful way. Inevitably we end up testing not intelligence, but a handful of factors valued by researchers working for a for-profit company.

    A lot of people don’t know what the WAIS is or how it works. For WAIS-III (which is still dominant as WAIS-IV hasn’t taken off yet) you essentially have 14 very short tests which then have their scores aggregated to develop three IQ scores (Verbal, Performance, and Full Scale) and four Index scores (Verbal Comprehension, Perceptual Organization, Working Memory, and Processing Speed). The whole thing appears very scientific. Scales are normed over age and gender, procedures for administration are rigid and fixed so that the test is (in theory if never in practice) identical for everyone, scores are tied to the normal distribution and have easily identifiable standard deviations. The problem is that when you look behind the curtain you see that its not nearly what it seems. Many of these tests overlap, others examine only very specific abilities, and some have incredible cultural components (such as the Vocabulary and Information subtests). At least three of the subtests are wholly dependent on spacial relations. One of the memory/processing subtests, Arithmetic, inexplicably uses culture bound word problems instead of straight numbers. Two of the subtests measure little more than formal education. The most nuanced subtests, Comprehension and Similarities, have rigid standards for a correct answer which often penalize very bright, unusual, or non-western examinees.

    The bottom line is that the WAIS tests a very specific range of knowledges, skills, and abilities in a culturally bound manner and then pretends that they represent what most people consider intelligence. It is a popular test because you can train virtually anyone to administer and interpret it and because it’s results are fairly predictable and constant, but it lacks nuance and precision. To put it in statistical terms, the WAIS has wonderful reliability but terrible construct validity.

    As for people like Watson and Summers, they weren’t pointing out the emperor’s new clothes, they were displaying poor scholarship. Theres nothing courageous or revolutionary about being blind to confounding variables.

    Finally, I’d like to give you a word of advice: proofread.

  17. William,
    I’m really too busy to proofread here.There are people who think science should only report pleasant findings.The WAIS cetainly correlates with academic success and income.Some things I’d like you to contemplate;
    1)The universe is not terracentric
    2)The universe was not created in 4004 BC.
    3)Although evolution is only a theory,it’s been correlated with lab and real life observations repeatedly.
    4)There is no historical evidence a being named Jesus(Christ) ever existed.
    5)If the entire Arctic ice cap melted,the oceans wouldn’t rise a millimeter.(See grade school physics.Or fill a glass with ice cubes and then add water to the brim.)
    6)There is no such thing as phlogiston.

    7)There are repeated studies showing group diiferentials in general and mathematical ability.I feel people like you are akin to the ones who would prosecute the infidels in earlier centuries.
    I don’t know if you read disturbing materiel,or if you just deny(Shitty) it.Benbow anr Staley’s work on young people with pronounced natural math ability is certainly hard to deny.But,you’ll probably try.
    PS.They were at a little school in Maryland(Hopkins).And some very smart 12 year olds with math SAT’s over 700 were identified.Almost all were male.Reality-what a concept.
    See why I think you’re close minded?

  18. Buller is loved as Gould was and still is – by those who need these ideas and theories in order to maintain those they themselves hold very dear. This very mental trait is too an adaptation, and though the evidence is not firm, a pointer to the genesis of folk religion can be found existing with this very trait.

  19. 5)If the entire Arctic ice cap melted,the oceans wouldn’t rise a millimeter.(See grade school physics.Or fill a glass with ice cubes and then add water to the brim.)

    I know it’s irrelevant to the wider discussion here, but just so you know, this is completely wrong. The icecaps and oceans are not analagous to a cup filled with water and ice cubes, the reason being that much of the Arctic and Antarctic ice is on land, not floating in the oceans.

    I’m not a psychologist so am cautious on the subject of intelligence and IQ testing and the like, however I’d tend to agree with William and others about ‘intelligence’ being far too broad and ill-defined a concept to be something we can measure in any sensible way using a simple test. Same with ‘mathematical ability’ – mathematics is by no means a monolithic subject requiring one particular skill or type of ability, in fact it would be better seen as a wide-ranging collection of subjects from abstract logic to practical applications in engineering. I studied maths at university and there were some subjects I found very difficult (I have very poor spatial awareness so anything involving 3-dimensional visualisation was a problem – topology and the like) however I took rather well to the pure mathematics side – number theory etc which required skills like logical reasoning and abstract thought. I have no idea whether I’d score well on a test of ‘mathematical ability’, it would depend what exactly the test was measuring. And the test would only tell you how good I was at that particular competency, it would tell you very little about some broad concept like ‘mathematical ability’, whatever that means.

    Tests are all very well, but it’s important to realise their limitations, and not to over-extrapolate the results and use them to prop up pre-existing assumptions when there’s no real justification for that.

  20. Corwin: Correlation does not imply cause. Did you know that there is a very strong correlation between ice cream sales and murder? Its true, as ice cream sales increase so does the murder rate. Does that mean ice cream sales cause murder, or vice versa? No, it would be foolish to assume that. The reality is that both the rate of violent crimes (including murder) and the rate of ice cream sales are influenced by a third factor: temperature.

    Lets take it a bit further. As temperature goes up so too does the sale of ice cream and the rate of violent crimes, does that mean that heat causes people to become violent and crave ice cream? Lets say we decided to find out. If we put people who disliked ice cream in a room and gradually increased the temperature, would they eventually begin to crave ice cream? How would you measure a craving for ice cream? We certainly can’t ask self report, because if the people in question don’t like ice cream they might not recognize an ice cream craving or their dislike for ice cream might cause them to deny their craving. Perhaps we could find a place in the brain that lit up on an fMRI when a human being craves ice cream. That leads to several new studies: we need to find the place in the brain that lights up, test whether that activity actually means a craving for ice cream or if it just has more to do with some other factor, etc. Perhaps we were to put a dozen pacifists with no history of violence into a room together and gradually increased the heat, would we eventually find a point on the thermometer where violence consistently broke out? Does heat actually cause violence or the consumption of ice cream, or does something about heat increase the likelihood that individuals will engage in certain behaviors based upon idiosyncratic factors?

    Lets say you did all of these studies and seemed to answer the questions and you defined temperature as the number on a thermometer in your laboratory. What value would your studies have if you later found out that the thermometer you had didn’t actually measure temperature (perhaps you grabbed the barometer by mistake, or a clock radio with a similar display)? What would happen if your thermometer was inaccurate? What if, due to some technical error, you simply increased the number on the instrument instead of increasing the temperature in the room? What if the temperature in your laboratory wasn’t even in all areas?

    Skepticism is the soul of inquiry and you are showing very little.

  21. William,
    Your study on ice cream sales and murder is based on an old Rat Bradbury story.The gist was two elderly (retired) insurance execs found a temp at which more murders were committed than any other.And some of your critiques -it may have been a clock radio,not a thermometer , are laughable.Lo0ok ,one of the first things one is taught is not to “Post hoc,ergo propter hoc,”(Sorry to burst your bubble.)
    Sarah, a little primer on intelligenge.First,general intelligence (g) correlates with all forms of intelligence.It’s been the nightmare og the ‘anti-intellect’ people for decades.As one prominent anti IQ person admitted,”You can make ‘g’ hide,but it won’t go away.” Let me explain a bit more.The generally accepted most intelligent person of the last century was John von Neumann.It’s doubtful if many of you recognize the name.But aside fro his math abilities,he wasm involved with constructing the A bomb,made Games theory,re wrote economics,spoke about 8 languages and administered the Institute for Advanced Studies.His intelligence was unusual in it’s depth,but smart people do well in any field.What I find a/be-musing is so many people who have firm feelings on subjects have no knowldge or ability to apply knowledge.Sarah,by definition the Arctic ice is a floating cap.
    Let me make a point to so many of you.and I’m not trying to bully with my intellect.You tend to want pleasant answers.And you avoid and even are antagonistic to persons who impinge with reality. I am usually referred to as ‘brilliant’.that doesn’t mean I’m a genius-I’m not-and I have to work very hard at my job,but my results give that conclusion.I have more scientific background than a fraction of 1% of the populace.But I don’t hazard a guess on GW,since I’m ignorant of the subject,it’s complex,other real smart people-some of whom are undoubtedly smarter than I aren’t sure about it.But,so many of you are sure..See my point?

  22. And I will leave a small story about JvN-AKA the Great Man.Another Princeton prof presented him with a riddle about the distance two flies would travel on bicycle rims of opposing bikes.After a brief pause,he gave the correct answer.He was chided,”Ah,John.You’ve heard the riddle.”He replied,”What riddle?I just summed the infinite series.”See why I’m a little humble?

  23. Oh, my god, and Amanda (and she has plenty of company, including family) gets upset with me for being my know-it-all self…

    At least I tend to be right–and when I’m not, I’m freakin’ crazy. Easy to tell either way.

    Corwin, you’re an idiot. You’re also an idiot that takes work to read and interpret. I had to snort at comment 26. I did pretty much the exact same fucking thing to another student (while in high school). Most riddles are riddles because they have deceptively easy solutions. For any of them, no matter how hard it is, it’s a matter of the right perspective. Telling a story of Von Neumann giving the right answer to *that* problem (as an example of real smartnes) sez a whole lot more about smart *you* are, than how smart Von Neumann is–which is still really fuckin’ smart.

    I mean…my god. You didn’t even understand Sarah‘s answer! She’s fucking exactly right, and you still can’t be bothered to drop the condescending attitude! As if VonNeumann is actually an unknown name to people here.

    You’ve gotta be a troll projecting insecurities…

    Sarah? I thought your comment about math was pretty funny. I’m pretty much the opposite. I absolutely can’t handle any kind of make-your-own-context math like set theory or circuits like knight travels. However, I am very good at the spatial awareness part! Linear Algebra, conic sections, diffEQ (sorta, I’m wierd), anything with a pattern or shape to them.

  24. Your study on ice cream sales and murder is based on an old Rat Bradbury story.The gist was two elderly (retired) insurance execs found a temp at which more murders were committed than any other.

    Like most good speculative fiction writers, Bradbury tended to take a small amount of existing science or theory and apply them in such a manner as to examine something about the human experience. As seems to be often the case, it appears that you are aware of only the most superficial aspects of the discussion. Just because Bradbury took a well known effect that professors have used for a long time to teach students about the limitations of correlation doesn’t mean that the information being exchanged is false.

    .And some of your critiques -it may have been a clock radio,not a thermometer , are laughable.Lo0ok ,one of the first things one is taught is not to “Post hoc,ergo propter hoc,”(Sorry to burst your bubble.)

    Yes, one of the first things people are taught is to not assume that correlation equals cause. Just because an even follows another does not mean that the first caused the other. I’m not sure why you felt the need to follow an attempt at critique with a bit of misplaced Latin, but it neither help your cause nor lends the appearance of authority. Perhaps you were reaching for reductio ad absurdum? Even that wouldn’t quite work well because a nuanced critic would have realized that when I was talking about the temperature study I was using it as a symbol for the problems with the measurement of intelligence.

    Sarah, a little primer on intelligenge.First,general intelligence (g) correlates with all forms of intelligence.

    Ahh, general intelligence. Could you please provide use with a definition of “general intelligence?” How would you measure it? How would you ensure construct validity? How would you manage differences in verbal abilities versus spacial relations? How do you account for people with very high general intelligence but very low emotional and social intelligence?

    Let me explain a bit more

    Could we get a decoder ring as well, or should we just grab a cup of kool aid and a copy of The “Bell Curve?”

    The generally accepted most intelligent person of the last century was John von Neumann.

    Really? Care to back that statement with, I don’t know…anything?

    smart people do well in any field

    Again, some evidence here would be nice. Are you really suggesting that Nietzsche, under slightly different circumstances, could have been a great mathematician? Perhaps in another life Dali would have been a nuclear engineer or William Blake a skilled engineer.

    What I find a/be-musing is so many people who have firm feelings on subjects have no knowldge or ability to apply knowledge.

    What I find “a/be-musing” is the combination of your shockingly poor verbal abilities, clearly defensive arrogance, and inability to attend to anything beyond the manifest.

    Let me make a point to so many of you.and I’m not trying to bully with my intellect.

    I’ll try not to be intimidated…

    You tend to want pleasant answers.

    Which is why I’m such a big fan of Michel Foucault and Alice Miller. Rays of sunshine those two are…

    And you avoid and even are antagonistic to persons who impinge with reality.

    I’m going to assume you mean “impinge upon reality” there and were just too busy to proofread. Anyway, I find it interesting that you assume not only that such a thing as “reality” can exist but also that you are able to accurately and infallibly identify it.

    I am usually referred to as ‘brilliant’.

    Funny, most people who need to make an assertion like that tend not to be. You really are a beautiful and unique snowflake!

    I have more scientific background than a fraction of 1% of the populace

    A cynic might assume that all of these masturbatory qualifiers would signal someone who is trying to convince themselves as much as their audience. I’m not a cynic though, I’m more a fan of plesant answers, so I’ll just assume that you are possessed of an intellect so overwhelming that what would be crippling insecurity masquerading as arrogance or conceit in a lesser person is simply self awareness for you. Y’know, like Ayn Rand.

    See my point?

    Perhaps, but I’m willing to bet that its not the one you’re trying to make.

    See why I’m a little humble?

    Oh, I doubt there is any question of how humble you are, Corwin.

    Anyway, barring a change in attitude I’m not going to respond to you anymore. Its clear at this point that you’re starved for attention and painfully insecure. I don’t see much of a point in continuing to kick you.

  25. Why are you guys talking to this guy? It was pretty clear what was going on as soon as he tried to impugn someone’s rational abilities by suggesting they must not be familiar with Boolean logic.

  26. The trouble is that as soon as feminists start talking about ‘pop science’ in a critical way it is only because what they are criticising doesn’t fit their own biased world views. That they fail to recognise their on biases especially on issues of sexuality both biologically and socially raises the inevitable experience of witnessing the kettle calling the pot black.

  27. Ohh by the way I just read that a commentator had made the completely ludicrous claim that in the nature – nurture wars nurture ‘won’. That is so off the mark that it almost beggars belief – one only has to reflect that were it not for ‘nature’ there would be no such thing as ‘nurture’. In the final analysis if we as a species try and ‘socialise’ our culture against the grain of our evolutionary and biological imperatives then we will pay a negative price which could even include our own extinction. Nature cannot be so easily ignored nor thwarted as researches in many bio related fields have already revealed.

  28. Goddamit! Just another chatroorm where lonely souls while away their hours. Come on, Guardian, you used to have substance.

  29. I’d like the posters to read their comments,and hope it stimulates you from your lassitude.William,one of the points of being highly intelligent is I’m aware of my capabilities.And it’s interesting you’d bring up ‘The Bell Curve”.I am quite secure in postulating you’ve not read it ,and never will.Slightly less secure in saying you’ve condemned it.Shah8,I don’t understand your comment re’ JvN.I certainly don’t equate my abilities with his by several AU’s.(By the way,had you even heard the name before?The point was ,he didn’t solve it as a riddle.He used brute intellect.I’m not trying to irritate you-as a group or individually.You may be irritated because some of your dearest fables are being examined.Cut to Jack Nicholson,”You can’t handle the Truth.”In an earlier thread,I mentioned(re’ the 77% myth) how easily it was to debunk.A poster had no answer but talked of why logic couldn’t answer it.Kind of like above.
    But let me reiterate what I surmise about your group think Information that troubles your prejudices is unwelcome and people bringing it are conceited beings who think they are so smart ,but really aren’t
    It’s not required to have a working knowledge of anything to have a firm opinion.People who have superior knowledge/intellects should have the decency to not burst bubbles.
    William,you’re clearly intimidated.Don’t be.Some of my best friends were Liberal Arts majors.
    The chances approach zero that one of you will do this,but read a copy of Be Curve or something you have avoided.Try to formulate what the information/messge says that is incorrect,not threatening to you.AS TJ Watson used to put on his employees’ wall THINK

  30. Corwin,

    You are condescending and nothing more. You have only shown your absolute lack of ability to use proper grammar, spell check or provide any reasoning beyond “I’m right and you’re wrong because I’m smart and you’re not” which is, quite frankly, more reminiscent of an ad hominem argument than anything logical. Sorry for bursting your bubble, but someone had to do it.

    As far as refuting your argument, well, you have to make a logical one before that is possible, so…get crackin’!

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