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Xenophobic Nutbag Politicians: Not Just in America!

Yes, they’re in Italy too (and a whole lot of Europe).

That victory last month, which included the election of Rome’s first right-wing mayor since World War II and the stiffest rejection ever of communists, was part of a significant shift in favor of the Italian political right, composed of restyled former Fascists, anti-immigrant forces and traditional conservatives.

Bossi and three other members of his Northern League party were given choice seats in the new Cabinet, including control of the Interior Ministry, which oversees police and most domestic security.

In this climate, it came as little surprise that the government’s first action has been a harsh police crackdown on the Rom, an oft-targeted minority also known as Gypsies.

Bossi and the Northern League are widely seen here as the moving force behind the decision to target Gypsies and illegal immigrants, two groups blamed for a rash of recent crimes. Hundreds of Rom and foreigners were arrested, scores deported, and ramshackle Gypsy camps razed or burned to the ground by either authorities or vigilantes.

“All Gypsies must go,” the league’s Davide Boni, an official in the Lombardy regional government, said in an interview in his office in Milan.

The league, which is based in Lombardy, would add most Romanians and Muslim immigrants to the list, Boni said. Overall, he said, the party advocates reducing immigration to between 5% and 10% of its current level. “That way, you have immigration and integration,” he said. “What you have now is invasion.”

Well that sounds familiar. And these dudes may be even bigger assholes than their American counterparts:

“People want this country to remain theirs,” said Bossi, who once advocated shooting at boats bringing immigrants to Italy’s shores.

Another Cabinet post went to the league’s Roberto Calderoli, best remembered for appearing on television in a T-shirt emblazoned with a cartoon of the prophet Muhammad and for planning to parade pigs on land where Muslims were attempting to build mosques, both gestures seen as insults to Islam.

And they’re preying on (and encouraging) existing anti-immigrant sentiments:

The most shocking incidents occurred last week in Naples, where residents, reacting to reports that a Gypsy woman had attempted to kidnap an Italian child, torched several camps, forcing hundreds of men, women and children to flee. Many were later loaded in the back of trucks and taken to safety, in scenes that United Nations officials compared to “ethnic cleansing” in the Balkans in the 1990s — the very events that drove some of these Rom to Italy in the first place.

The European Union, Spain and international human rights organizations condemned the actions. Italy could face sanctions.

Although the interior minister, the league’s Roberto Maroni, publicly condemned the vigilante violence, Bossi chimed in with an apparent justification: “People do what the state can’t manage.”

But nah, I’m sure that just like over here, Italy’s anti-immigrant politicians are totally not at all racist.


15 thoughts on Xenophobic Nutbag Politicians: Not Just in America!

  1. Don’t worry, it is just a way to manipulate the medias and don’t show to the italian citizens which are the real problems of Italy. Today Berlusconi decided that the rest of Europe was right and that he wants to change this law……
    Don’t worry, it’s just Italy, there things work like that (= bad!!!).

  2. How dare you (primary the author of original article) to acusse countries, politicians and people, of whom you know nothing of dreaded “racism”?

    To acuse someone of racism today is the same as acusse someone of being witch in middle ages. It is accusation from which there is no defence, it is acussation that utterly discredits the acussed, like dreaded HERESY did some 500 years ago.

    I am so sick of “radicals” born with silver spoon in their mouth spiting their venom at real or percived “heretics”. I guess that you feel so “enlighted” so “progressive” while doing that form safe and warm enviroment.

    You don’t (if I may use pastors Wrights terms) know God damn thing about Italy’s or Europe’s gypsy problem. About crime, tribalism, lawlessnes and about politicians unwilling to take legal, humane and just actions because they fear being villified as racists. But you were of course well informed and full of “just rage”, when you heard of torchings of gypsy camp.

    You don’t know about indigenious people that (of which I am sure) acted out of despair over state passivity, not from “racist” motives. And broke the law and will certanly be punished. This is Italy, there never had things like KKK or Black panthers. Did it ever occur to you, that “racism” may not be motivation? That people maybe, just maybe want to live in security and acted against (real or percived) source of problems?

    About politicians – if they took adequate messures years ago, there would’t be any violence. It is feeling of being abandoned by authorities that causes vigilanitsm. Not “racism”. People have better things and to much decency to bash miniorites just for sake of it.

    The same story is gong on in whole of Europe over and over again. I do not condone or encourage violence…but people are often driven into despair before they act in illegal way.

    But I have a felling that even if you knew about it, you would’t care.
    It’s so unenlighted to care about “heretics” isn’t it?

  3. Dear European: I’m also European and i DO know a goddamn thing. And that thing is that racist, xenophobic hate acts are racist, xenophobic hate acts whether they be out of too much comfort (which most racism is anyway, right?!) or “out of despair over state passivity” (and out of any other kind of frustration that those who commit such acts may feel motivates and justifies them).

    You don’t (if I may use pastors Wrights terms) know God damn thing about Italy’s or Europe’s gypsy problem. About crime, tribalism, lawlessnes and about politicians unwilling to take legal, humane and just actions because they fear being villified as racists. But you were of course well informed and full of “just rage”, when you heard of torchings of gypsy camp.

    … yes, if only we could all inform ourselves and realize, like you, that while our rage isn’t “just” those torchings of gypsy camps were!… Actually, European, those of us who know more than a little about Europe’s “gypsy problem” know that this problem is rooted in the centuries of anti-gypsyism and the nonchalant hatred and “plain” racism that plagues most European countries today. I need to call YOU out on your lack of a clue… please, give us one example of “politicians unwilling to take legal, humane and just actions because they fear being villified as racists” with respect to Roma people somewhere (anywhere) in Europe – my suspicion is that by “humane and just actions” you mean truly vile stuff… because so far politicians haven’t been unwilling to offer even such “mildly” racist suggestions as “rounding up all the Romas and sending them to the desert” and those were far from being condemned by anyone except human rights groups.

    So please enlighten us, European… what is racism to you if not this (funny that you should use the “witch hunt” parallel)? but perhaps you may want to first enlighten yourself as far as “the problem” and what’s being done about it and what isn’t… you can start over here (see especially all the references).

  4. First of all do not try to put words into my mouth. By humane and legal mesures I mean nothing but equal implementation of law for all citizens.

    I do not need to go into centuries of anti-gypsysm as I don’t have to go in dark past of anti-irish or anti-slavic sentiment to adress today’s problems.

    For example – I dare to claim that european families would not (and no one should ) be allowed to raise their children in such disregard for education, care and upbringing as is sadly to often seen in gypsy families. This is not stereotype – of course not all gypsy families are same. This is not my claim -but if you are european you must see gypsy children that are beggars in streets of mayor cities of Europe. families.

    I can easily see couple of them every single day. I’m sure that this is symptom of state’s passivity – whole citiy sees that child but social services that should remove such child from familly which cannot or will not support him. And if you cannot see how often is this a case, than you do not live in Europe (or don’t want to see it). Little beggars in street are symptom of state passivity – pure and simple.

    We have in our country a familly of gypsys (extremly known case in Ambrus – google it) that lived in conflict with local population due to alleged and/or percived criminal activity for several years. (if crimes were actually commited is matter of courts – my point is that conflict was left untouched for years pripor eruption). State failed to adress the situation for a long time until one of locals was almost killed in incident ( in which their complicity was again percived) and people reacted with massive demostration. In the end state had to protect gypsys with some 100 police officers from local mob, not mob of skinheads but mob of common working people.

    But point is that reaction of locals would be the same against my blond and blue eyed person – if they percived me as thread and state would fail to ensure basic feeling of order and safety in that area. I do not by any means justify lynch style justice I – but it is not manifestation of racist hysteria like this article would have you belived.

    Anti-semitism and anti-slavism have terrible legacy in Europe. Yet Jews and Slavs today have no big problems due to prejudice or hate. Slavs (like me) were viewed and treated by nazis and italian fascists as animals in times before and during ww II, yet there are no lynch mobs ater us today. And neither are after Jews.

    This only shows that sad events like one in Naples and all across Europe are fueled by genuine frustration and problems, not prejudice. Those are problems that should be adressed. With normal procedures. With social services, education and also with fight against crime.

    And why are this problems not solved?

    When Italy very recenty began to legaly expel illegal immigrants, Spanish socialist government came out accusing fellow EU country of racist and xenophobic policy. JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE SENDING ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS BACK TO COUNTRY OF ORIGIN LIKE IT MUST BE DONE ACCORDING TO LAW. (Sorry for venting but it is such obvious example of “racism” claim). If even a government of a large country is being attacked as racist – how in God’s name can you say, that individual politicians would not be teared appart by such accusations.

    If authorities can be scared into passivity by constant accusation of racism – like Spanish government tried to pull of with Italy – then what do you expect to happend? Can you honesty be suprised that problems occour when immigrants (like gypsys in Naples were according to article) are being allowed to come illegaly, dwell in provisional camps and are left for them selves in foreign country?

  5. European: I have put no words in your mouth – but I notice you are not addressing any of the points I made, nor giving any examples of these “normal procedures” that you believe governments would try if only they weren’t held back by “accusations” of racism… And, again, you are making no sense: racism against Romas is in fact quite accepted – I’m sure you know, as I do, that in most European countries it is the norm. It’s not accusations of racism that make it hard to find solutions – quite the opposite. You yourself are giving a perfect illustration of the general anti-gypsy mentality that exists (you see a couple of gypsy beggars every day? and this is an example of state passivity? and of course this means mobs of common working people will torch gypsy camps? – well, thanks for that analysis). But given the fact that as a rule anti-gypsy racist attitudes from politicians (let alone from common people) would not be and are not condemned – I gave one concrete example but there are so many (read at least those links I pointed you to) – what is your point?

    No, I am not surprised that problems occur “with immigrants”… because I know what’s really going on: in the case of Italy, it’s been perfectly ok to exploit the labor of large numbers of immigrants but otherwise the government hasn’t given a damn about the conditions in which they have to live… and neither does the majority, who most of the time would prefer to just forget about them – and yet these foreigners are so useful for serving as scapegoats for everyone’s problems and frustration! The thing is, when the shit hits the fan in situations which have been allowed to fester over the years, both governments and entire communities are all too happy to stir up conflicts and find scapegoats. Did you even see that the “incident” that led to the Ponticelli burning in Naples was based on FALSE ACCUSATIONS that it was a Roma woman who had tried to kidnap a child?!… there was no truth to that claim, but it was being repeated ad nauseam by politicians and the mass media. So what do you call that attitude? Are you at all surprised that Romas are hated and hunted down? And do you think they should continue to be, or what is your point!? If you cared to look, you’d see that governments are not only historically complicit in these problems (we agree there), in Italy’s case we’re now talking now about a consciously racist national campaign. What will it solve? That’s the issue here. It’s funny to me that you are so upset on behalf of a far-right governement that’s being accused of xenophobia. They admit it themselves: xenophobia and racism are part of their political platform (and let’s not forget they were elected based on this platform)… so why do you worry about them? Read up and inform yourself, European.

    And do not find excuses for “common working people” who commit hate crimes! Sure, you can find an explanation for it happening, but if you are going to see only one side of the picture, ignore institutionalized and cultural racism, and then get upset when people are enraged by racist acts and discourse, the only thing you’re accomplishing is to contribute to the hate and fueling the problem.

    As for “social services, education and fighting against crime” I urge you again to read up and inform yourself about all that. Yes, that’s the kind of thing that’s needed and not being pursued even by the very official entities whose job is to do so. I gave a link above to a text on “Commissionism and Roma Issues”: please read it. And at the same time you need to understand: the fact that you don’t think mobs of common people urged by media and authorities attacking gypsy camps constitutes “racist hysteria” doesn’t mean it’s not. To borrow your phrase, “if you live in Europe” I’m sure you know that calling someone a “gypsy” is in and of itself an insult… this obviously doesn’t phase you (and there are blond, blue-eyed gypsies by the way). Don’t talk about how the Slavs and Jews used to be seen as animals, implying that since that’s over now they were good and rose above it and Romas should just do the same – the virulent racism is what Roma people have to deal with now, and it’s not any more justifiable or excusable than when “those” fascists did it to them and others. It’s exactly the same thing! And for some reason you are here defending fascist government.

  6. sorry, i left out an “a” – that should be “for some reason you are here defending a fascist government” at the very end of my previous comment.

  7. If you would care to read my post you would see what I mean by “normal prodedures”.

    I have show you with examples, that authorities are bullied into passivity :

    1) in regard of living standard and education of (some)Gypsy children;

    2) in regard of mistrust among Gypsys and others and faliure to provide public safety;

    3) in regard of dealing with illegal immigration.

    I have, at your request, given you well publicised example of such pressure being made upon Italy from Spain.

    You not only choose to igore my examples of work that should be done but is not, you even accuse me of being a bigot precisely because I made a vaild argument. I guess it makes me a bigot because I told you something that can be seen every day and should not happend only if authorities did what they are here for.

    I clearly told that I was not stereotyping – that this are objective examples, but not generalisations about Gypsys as a group.

    But I guess you just could’t help not to inform me of my bigotry. As you are preaching me, not to defend hate crimes of common working people -something I clearly and denonced and rejected in my previous post. Even more, I choosed not to call a criminal somebody that was not senteced in court of law and I belive you should let judges decide, what is a hate crime and what is not.

    Haven’t I already told you, not to put words into my mouth ?

    You also didn’t understand my argument about persecution in times of fascism/nazism that was based on real prejudice, state propaganda and hate. Slavs and Jews today did not have to better themselves in order to avoid persecution – But persecution at that time was organised crime based on hate -outbursts of community violence are triggered by frustration, genuine fear and problems.

    People maybe prejudiced against Gypsys in Naples – but I bet they did’t act out of prejudice alone. They sure don’t like “schiavi” as they used to call us over there – but only right wing nuts would acctually harm me – not common folk. My argument about “common working people” is, that they are not right wing fringe. That they surely have better things to do than to persecute someone for fun of it. This people are not inflamed to act by state – like they were 70 years ago.

    Your claim about “fascist government” shows that you have no business telling me to go and educate myself. Fascism is form of coorporativism which sought to integrate all social classes within and under state control in order to find solution to class struggle and economic crysis in 20’s and 30’s of 20th century.

    Fascist regimes are usually (but not neccesary) marked heavely by militarism, chauvinism and nationalism and political decision making is made by small elite or dictator.

    Italy is a democracy – but you don’t like the people that won the election.

    You are using word “fascist” as a smear word – they are fascist, I’m a illustration of bigotry and you can feel good since you told unrepented heretics how heretic they are.

    Yes I am defending Italy against smears and insults. Against delusional accusations of “racism, fascism and bigotry”, that cannot be proven or defended against. Against “collective thought crime”.

    I seem to have wrong opinion too, don’t I :))

    Just as inquisition just to investigated delusional heresy, people today are being accused of thought crime.

    Google Mark Steyn… but on the other hand… just go and read another book on cultural racism, where you will learn that your arguments are correct. Plus you wont have to deal with reality while reading.

  8. No, European, actually you have shown nothing except your own anti-gypsyism. I addressed your concern that authorities have remained “passive” because they’re “being bullied” by accusations of racism – you, however, have yet to answer my question: how can you claim that accusations of racism are stopping any potential well-meaning solutions when 1. racist discourse/action goes un-remarked upon all the time [a fact] and 2. the only “solutions” offered so far have been racist and xenophobic (the fact that you support some doesn’t make them good), and those that are really needed are just not pursued because people – and certainly governments – are not interested in improving conditions for Romas but quite the opposite [also a fact]?!

    I’ve given you resources for those two facts. And you’re disregarding a huge chunk of reality.

    Of course you’re stereotyping – that’s what your whole “argument” is based on. The fact that you state “i’m not stereotyping” doesn’t cancel out the fact that you’re saying quite clearly that while some groups that were affected by racism and xenophobia in the past were really persecuted (so that meant real fascism), the Romas actually deserve it (so what we’re seeing now in Italy is not fascism). … yeah, this opinion is wrong.

    In fact, Italy is fast approaching your own definition of what “fascism is usually but not neccesarily” marked by – that’s the whole point here (well, one of the points). And while you’re worried about people like Berlusconi and his Northern League allies being smeared by words like “racist” and “fascist” when that’s exactly what they are, there’s people being burned by angry mobs that have been goaded into it by precisely “real prejudice, state propaganda and hate.” Those are the facts in front of you. The question is: what’s to be done? Your whole argument that “outbursts of community violence triggered by frustration, genuine fear and problems” cannot possibly be racist or a sign of the influence of racist, xenophobic manipulation by media and the state is laughable. That’s exactly how a fascist regime works: it plays on people’s fears and frustration, it fosters hatred, and it stirs up – and when needed manufactures – racist, xenophobic hysteria in the general population. If you refuse to see these obvious tactics at work here (and throughout Europe in regards to Romas… and extending more and more to all immigrants), if in fact you are upset that people see them and want to put a stop to them, then you’re contributing to the problem – and you’re contradicting your supposed interest in “humane and just” solutions.

  9. For the THIRD !!! time:

    Example how bullying works can be seen in protests from government of Spain against Italy’s deportation of illegal immigrants.

    Since you refuse to understand my example, I will write it again for you on a kindergarten level:

    1.) Italy has a law that prohibits people illegaly coming and living in Italy. Such law may in your view be “fascist monstrousity” but it is a valid law, and every country has one.

    2.) Italy decides that law needs to be executed, especially since citizens keep squeeking something about number of illegal immigrants and problems connected to their presence.

    3.) Spanish socialist government is deeply shaken by atempt of fellow EU conutry to uphold the law of immigration (especially since Spain failed to do the same?) and starts denouncing Italys action.

    4.)HYPOTHETICAL: Italy caves in and let illegal immigrants in country despite immigration law. Since they are illegal, undocumented, without insurance ect…. there are problems connected to their presence.

    Including crime, poverty, violence, conflicts with “xenophobes” that may not like to be victims of such trend.

    Of course only because natives, inflamed by propaganda by evil government cant wait to go and lynch emmigrants to the last one thus satisfying their urge for their daily practice of cultural racism. Thinking anything else as a reason would expose responsibillity of racism-baiters for situation.

    I denounced and rejected in my yesterday’s post all acts of violence. Today, anwsering your post, I again reminded you, that I denounced and rejected such action. And now you are argumenting that I justified violence against Romas, that I said it’s somehow deserved.

    Have you some kind of problem with my mouth? Keep your words to yourself.

    As for your accusations of stereotyping and racism (of course I did not stereotype anyone):

    In times of inquisition I would hate to be humble sheep of Church’s flock.
    I would love to be viewed as heretic.

    Today I’m proud to be called bigot. THANK YOU.

    I’m not intimidated by such accusation, and I have a feeling that Italians won’t be either. People are fed up with such hypocracy.

  10. You’re welcome. You haven’t been able to come up with any counter-arguments. But actually there’s “Italians” who agree with me. Sure, not the ones who voted for Berlusconi, neccessarily, but many… MANY Italians are scared of what’s happening in their country – and if you ask them it’s not about those evil immigrants ruining their country… it’s about the right wing crazies in power and other very “native” evils. I also gave you a link to a group based in Italy which is working on the problem you refuse to acknowledge: both to improve conditions for Romas and immigrants in general and to ensure that human rights are respected in Italy and that the increasing racism and xenophobia at all levels are kept in check. No, I will not “keep my words to myself”; and you can continue with your “of courses” and “kindergarten explanations,” which don’t change your argument, which is basically that Romas deserve racism OR – since “racism” is a bad word – that hatred and hate-based violence against Romas by governments as well as “common working people” is not really racism. That is LITERALLY what you’ve been saying the whole time. Well, anyway, good luck with convincing anyone but fellow racists with that argument.

    And by the way your description of the situation in Italy shows that you in fact know nothing about the series of events in the past year or about the laws that are being proposed and those that have been passed or the situation as far as “illegal” immigrants in Italy especially. If you’re reading anything, you’re probably reading the kind of stuff Berlusconi’s press is putting out. You certainly sound just like the Northern League guys. Did you even read the article this post comments on? Do you understand what’s going on? It’s not that hard to “see”… from The Guardian, May 17th:

    “Sixty-eight per cent of Italians, fuelled by often inflammatory attacks by the new rightwing government, want to see all of the country’s 150,000 Gypsies, many of them Italian citizens, expelled, according to an opinion poll.

    The survey, published as mobs in Naples burned down Gypsy camps this week, revealed that the majority also wanted all Gypsy camps in Italy to be demolished.

    About 70,000 Gypsies in Italy hold Italian passports, including about 30,000 descended from 15th-century Gypsy settlers in the country. The remainder have arrived since, many fleeing the Balkans during the 1990s.

    Another 10,000 Gypsies came from Romania after it joined the European Union in January 2007, according to an Italian human rights organisation, EveryOne, part of the approximately half million Romanians believed to be in Italy.

    […]

    Young Neapolitans who threw Molotov cocktails into a Naples Gypsy camp this week, after a girl was accused of trying to abduct a baby, bragged that they were undertaking “ethnic cleansing”. A UN spokeswoman compared the scenes to the forced migration of Gypsies from the Balkans. “We never thought we’d see such images in Italy,” said Laura Boldrini.

    “This hostility is a result of the generally inflammatory language of the current government, as well as the previous one,” said EveryOne director Matteo Pegoraro. “Italian football stars at Milan teams assumed to have Gypsy heritage, such as Andrea Pirlo, are now also the subject of threatening chants.”

    Commenting on the attacks in Naples, Umberto Bossi, the head of the Northern League party said: “People are going to do what the political class cannot.”

    The defence minister, Ignazio La Russa, said yesterday he would consider deploying soldiers to Italian streets to help fight crime, while a group of Bosnian Gypsies in Rome said they were mounting night guard patrols of their camp to defend against vigilante attacks.”

    No, it’s not about implementing an existing law, and the people targeted by Berlusconi & co. are not undocumented people only. And it’s certainly not about “humane and legal measures” being stopped with “accusations of racism”… It’s about a tough situation that’s being made much worse by measures that are virulently racist and xenophobic. And you’re just upset because people dare to speak out against racism and because in a tough situation scapegoating is SO much easier than actually having to deal with all the aspects – and because you see gypsy beggars in the street every day, which is their own damn fault and that’s all there is to it. You know – either stop arguing like a bigot, or don’t get upset when someone calls you on it.

  11. I wear “bigot” badge with honour.

    I also find your twisting of my words very funny. But I guess it’s only natural to assume the worst about heretics isn’t it:)).

    When you failed to refute:

    a) My example of bullying that is directed towards authorities

    b) evident explanation how such racism-baiting only damage the situation (as in case of illegal emmigrants not being deported in accordance with law)

    you started to generalize.

    You said that my argument is based upon notion, that Gypsys (or Romas if you prefer expresion) deserve racism.

    Now, this is not true. I said that incidents that are sadly happening around Europe are not caused by state sponsored propaganda against scapegoaths, but are in facts often caused by passivity of authorities that fail to act and take legal action due to the political pressure and in fear of being branded as racists, since this is terminal accusation that cannot be defended against and has heavy consequences (for accused).

    Stop with generalisations and give me clear specific arguments, that can be debated. Phraseology like “your argument is basically” and “you are saying literally” is usually used to twist ones arguments around.

    I’m not saying that hate-based violence isn’t fueled by racism at all; I’m saying, as you could see in every one of my posts that not all violence that is being portrayed as savage pogrom of minorities in media and by “anti-racists” (LOL I just love this word…nazis championed them selfs of being “anti-communists” once upon the time) is hate-based. And I am saying that common working people (is there a reason that you keep putting those words betteen marks?) even if they dislike someone, won’t act upon their feeling without very good reason. And something that stands in the paper is not a good reason.

    It’s rather funny that you seem to dislike Berlusconi’s press while qouting Guardian which is notorous for it’s left-wing bias. Even so Guardian article fosters my arguments not yours. Since Bosnian Gypsys are patroling against vigilanites, that would indicate that they are afraid of illegal punshment (of real or percived crime, which is of course wrong) not of persecution per se.

    A vigilante is, after all someone who punishes a criminal on his own, instead of State.

    Now which of your arguments has been left without anwser?

    Please, give me specific clear arguments.

    And by the way..if country is about to send soldiers on the streets to fight crime, then crime must by all means be imaginary. Propably my fellow racists made so many false accusations reporting unexisting crime that blinded public is ready to accept military on their streets. And elect first right-wing mayor of Rome from fall of Mussolini.

    Don’t you think, that citizens are really threatend if state has to put God damn army on street to provide safety???

    That they may act from real frustration and fear instead of evil Berlusconi whispering them racist propaganda?

  12. Are you sure you’re in Europe, European? You keep mighty strange hours for someone who lives in Europe.

    I really don’t have much interest in trying to reason with someone who “wears the bigot badge with honor”… I realize it’s useless. Unfortunately, it’s why this situation is so hard to solve – anti-gypsy sentiments are so strong and yet people are so unashamed of them… How can we solve anything as long as bigotry is the norm? But here’s my last response to you.

    The reason I have to say “you are saying x” is because you argue one thing and then turn around and pretend another – as in the case of stereotyping (all that you’ve said is one big stereotype: the fact that you see beggars on the street and that it’s “obvious” what a problem gypsies are means precisely that you’re stereotyping – and yet you insist you’re not, somehow), and as in the case of basing a large part of your argument on how anti-gypsy discourse and action are not racist or hate-based (you came here to complain about “accusations of racism,” you went into the whole thing about the “real persecution, state propaganda and hate” against Slavs and Jews in the past – how interesting that you forgot to include Romas among people who were also singled out by the Nazis – as opposed to what’s going on now in Italy against Romas, you are yelling at people calling these acts racism, etc. etc. …. and yet you claim you’re NOT saying that what’s clearly racist and xenophobic fervor is not because gypsies are just getting what was coming to them). I have to point out: this is exactly what you’re saying.

    Again, you don’t seem to have informed yourself about what specifically is going on in this case (and yet of course you’re the one complaining about “generalizations”). Or rather you seem not to care even if you know – how can you keep going about the “real frustration and fear” felt by those who are torching gypsy camps, how can you pretend they cannot possibly be influenced by what ha-ha-anti-racists are calling “racist propaganda,” when you see that so much of what the general population is perceiving as “gypsy threats” has been spoon-fed to them by the mass media and politicians playing on already existing anti-gypsy sentiments? Your only response when i mentioned the hoax which started the Ponticelli torching was that “people maybe prejudiced against Gypsys in Naples – but I bet they did’t act out of prejudice alone.” Did it give you pause at all to know that “common working people” are being worked up into murderous fury by what they’re being told is happening in their communities and who’s responsible for their problems by the media and their government? By complete lies about crimes, if that’s what it takes to stir them up? No – to the contrary – you’re of the unshakeable conviction that it’s not the case, and poor Berlusconi & co. are being “smeared” by accusations of racism and fascism. And you’re convinced that Romas are not scapegoats in any way, but the very root of the problem.

    On “this” side, nobody is claiming that people are acting “out of prejudice” alone. But you have to be blind, deaf and prejudiced to not get that there’s prejudice there and that the government is playing on those sentiments and magnifying the problems and stirring up hate and violence. Again, are you reading anything about all of this that’s not Berlusconi-approved Northern League-style propaganda? The only thing you are commenting on from all the information given in that quote from The Guardian is to say that since gypsies are afraid of vigilantes then they must just be afraid of “illegal punishment,” not the state, and somehow this supports your arguments. Which is bullshit. The point is: people are starting to talk about “ethnic cleansing!” Well, if you’re discounting reality based on “left-wing” bias then we know where you’re standing, don’t we?

    Nobody is saying that there aren’t real problems and fears and frustrations that make people particularly susceptible to being manipulated into racist, xenophobic hysteria. But do you realize the situation? As I said, Italy is having a whole host of problems: there’s army on the streets to deal with trash in Naples, a report just came out that Italy has the highest unemployment rate in all of Europe, Italian companies are delocalizing to other countries more and more, there’s the mafia and all that goes along with that throughout Italy, there’s people living in shanty towns whom the government hasn’t been interested in for years… But somehow to you “Italians” are frustrated and scared and it’s all because of gypsies and illegal immigrants? And the government would take care of the problems “legally” if only they were allowed to without getting smeared by “accusations of racism?” You don’t understand.

    I didn’t fail to refute your points: I said very clearly that you are talking about non-existing “bullying towards authorities” (Spain took a position regarding the whole problem with racist and xenophobic discourse, not stopped Italy from implementing existing “humane” law as you claim) and misguidedly focusing on illegal immigrants when it’s not really just about illegal immigrants at all (Berlusconi & co. want to target all gypsies, some of whom are Italian citizens, others of whom are European Union citizens and therefore “legal”… and ultimately all immigrants). You don’t get those basic issues. Who to you is and is not an “Italian?” Or an “European?” Or a human?

    You have not addressed even one of my points. But it’s pretty simple: what we’re seeing in Italy – and elsewhere – against Romas and extending to all immigrants more and more is racist and xenophobic hysteria, which the media and politicians are stirring up on purpose. I said that we agree: the “gypsy problem” throughout Europe is perpetuated by what’s not being done by states – what we don’t agree on is how the widespread racism towards gypsies everywhere is a huge part of the problem, and how governments should go about that and why they don’t. I gave you a link where that’s all discussed. You don’t seem to get it. You’ve left all of my arguments without an answer. But you cannot answer, because you cannot even begin to apply the notion that Romas deserve basic human rights… and you want them to be scapegoats.

    Yes, there is a reason I put “common working people” – as you use it – in quotes. You mean something very specific by that phrase: namely, you are separating people who are “common” and “working” from those OTHERS, from the gypsies who are threatening them… I tried to show you that the discourse you are using is contributing in so many ways to this conflict that’s being created – it’s what the Northern League is attempting, and it’s wrong and scary… But of course you’re not going to get that. ‘Cause you see a couple of gypsy beggars every day.

    You should really take a look at your own words, European. Really understand what you’re arguing. Wake up and realize that your mentality and the way you view an entire group of people is part of the problem, not the solution here.

  13. First of all – all who hold nationallity of EU country are not legal. Freedom of movement as defined in EU Treaty applies to freedom to move and stay there for limited time to look for job or to take job – not to stay in country for ever without getting employed there.

    Second – please be precise; which arguments, which exact points have been left unanwsered? If you claim that evil “fascist” propaganda is whiping Italians into frenzy give solid evidence. Not some fairytale whine you read on some activist forum or generalisations.

    Third – I’m willing to bet you, that no one will expel Italian citizens form Italy. Whole claim is ridicioulus. Have you any idea at all how european countries work? Have you heard of coutrs, supreme courts, EU human rights court in Strasburg, Court of EU in Luxemburg, of eviction warants, apealls ect….

    Italy is not some kind of failed bannana republic, where local dictator can round up citizens (or immigrants for that matter) and kick them out (like Idi Amin did with Asian minority in Uganda). Anyone having basic knowleage about administration and judical system in EU country views Guardians article with good messure of distrust.

    Last citizens that were expelled from Italy are Savoia royal familly which was banned to return after Italy became democratic republic after WW II.

    And as you my dislike my mentality, this is not on the table.
    I just love being me…:))

    Defeat me with solid proff and arguments not by arguing how bigoted and generally evil I seem to be.

  14. So, you Jill, picked an extremist Italian politician, and generalised his political position for all Europe. Congratulations for your ignorance!

    “I need to call YOU out on your lack of a clue… please, give us one example of “politicians unwilling to take legal, humane and just actions because they fear being villified as racists” with respect to Roma people somewhere (anywhere) in Europe – ”

    I tell you a Hungarian example:
    The Fidesz (right-wing) government made a law that only those families can get social benefits who send their children to school. The following socialist ( Hungarian Socialist Party: MSZP), government abolished this law.

    A lot of Roma families got family houses for free, because of their bad socioeconomic situation (unemployed, many children). Legally they couldn’t sell these houses for a couple of years, so they deconstructed them and sold the materials.
    During socialism gypsises got some really fine house in the middle of Miskolc (North-East Hungary), previously owned by the rich: today this part of the town looks like a ghetto.

    A sociology professor – who thought me conflict handling class – once explained that the problem is that we don’t understand gypsy culture well enough. And that it’s part of gypsy culture to not respect written law.

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